Fall Back, Free For All (mostly) w Rob

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. We are missing Brother Dan.

He is super busy. He is preaching, pastoring, ministering to his church and his family and he's studying for his presbytery examinations and we love him and miss him.

But tonight is going to be our normal time and it's going to be a fallback weekend, free for all.

Mostly we have to set a few boundaries, but we hope that you will join us. So tonight through the podcast, stick with it.

Welcome back. Tonight, I'm super excited to have for the first time,

Elias Gonzalez, the Reformerian. How you doing brother? I'm doing good, man.

I'm happy to be officially on a live with the, um, is this, is this a labors or truth and love podcast?

This is truth and love podcast. This is the one that Dan and I do. The labors is the one that all the truth and love network guys do together on Thursday nights.

And we can officially announce that the Reformerian is on the truth and love network.

Welcome brother. Thank you, man. Thank you. Yeah. He is going to join us when he is available on Thursday nights, but he is, he is in our chat group.

He's officially in the group and we, we're going to love on him. He's going to love on us and we're going to support, uh, support one another as brothers and we're thankful to have him.

Um, so if you're on tonight, this is, this is a free for all.

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But if you want to join in, I'll, I'll pop that link in there and you can join in with us tonight. If you want to talk about theology,

Bible, church, life, high school football, whatever you want to talk about, we'll, we'll throw it in there and, uh, we'll see how it goes.

Uh, before we, before we get into any, any conversation, I do want to,

I do want to remind everybody that the, uh, labor's conference 2024 is going to be coming up the last week in April.

And it's going to be in Knoxville, Tennessee, a reprimand of Baptist church. Uh, big

John just released a new promo video. And I want to share that with you guys.

So let me, let me play it for everybody at this church.

This is going to be the site of the labor's conference in 2024. Uh, but the claw

Ramsey and I are standing right here and I hope that as many people as can come, we'll be here.

There should be some great teaching on being empowered by the spirit. If we want to do anything, it's going to be done by the spirit of God coming up.

And the next month to come, you should see more than one trailer. I've asked that if you can't come, that you pray about the event that, uh, if you can come, that you pre -register so that we can have some idea of how many people will be here.

Seating is limited, but we don't want to turn anyone away. We'll do our very best to make sure that everybody can be, and the cost will be a 100 % free.

So any naysayers out there can go ahead and be quiet about that. We hope that you'd be in prayer about it.

And we hope that you show up and worship with us as the laborers study and dig into what it means to be empowered by the spirit of God.

All right.

Thank you. Big job for that promo for the labor's conference. Twenty twenty four in of April, Knoxville, Tennessee, Reformed Baptist Church at Pastor Paul Ramsey's church.

Now, seating is limited. He did tell us it was seventy five, but now he's opened up some more seats.

So seating is at ninety five. Go to labor's conference dot com. You can find several buttons there as you scroll through the page and you can find the register button.

Register, please, so that we know that you're coming and we can be looking forward to seeing you there and those will be with you at the labor's conference.

Twenty twenty four. Labor's conference dot com. Go register today. And we've got some more people joining in tonight.

This is a fall back weekend. Free for all. We've got a comment. So this is for you.

This is for you. I can I can share the link, but we have to know who you are.

If you want to jump in here with us and you want to have a conversation about the Bible, about theology, about life, church, anything that you may want to talk about or if you want to.

The chat room is open. If you want to leave a question, comment, let us know that you're watching. We'd like to answer your questions and have a conversation with you tonight.

So free for all fall back weekend celebration. All right, brother.

Yeah, well, maybe we can play another intro here a little bit later on. But you said you had some things that we could talk about tonight.

I'm looking forward to it. There's some things that me. What would you like to talk about tonight, brother? Well, I have a few topics

I got. I got talking about eschatology. I got it. I have in mind.

I have in mind Christian nationalism, Christian nationalism. That's that's one. Oh, forgive me here.

I'm going to put my phone on mute. Yeah, there's multiple times we can talk about.

Worship and, you know, what's acceptable to God, what's not. And yeah, so we could be attacking multiple of those things, multiple things.

I know the hot button topic is Christian nationalism. So obviously that's a, you know, really hot button topic.

So, yeah. Well, and I think, Jay, hopefully I'm going to get back on with Jay. Jay started a new job,

Jay, and tell the report. He started a new job and he's not been able to do this on podcast that he had lined up.

Hopefully I'm going to be on with him. And one of the things we'll get into Christian nationalism.

But this is it's kind of a side topic to Christian nationalism and cessationism, which is a hot topic as well.

Cessationism continuationism is kind of a side topic that it's he invited me on because of a comment that I made on Facebook.

And I had to do with definitions. And you talk about Christian nationalism being a hot topic.

And what goes through my mind is. Christian nationalism, cessationism, continuationism, all these different things are.

And Calvinism are hot topics in certain circles.

But if you go to your average local church, they may not even have heard these terms before.

And it depends on what church you go to. And they have heard these terms before. Or, you know, you go to a church that's leans more charismatic,

Pentecostal, leans more continuationist. They may use the term and then.

But I want to be fair. You go to a church that leans more towards cessationism and they may use the term continuationism.

In a way, that's a misrepresent, vice versa.

The other side can misrepresent. And then when you're online, especially when you're online and you're not communicating face to face.

You throw these comments and you throw these, you know, zingers, one liners. You throw these posts out there and you don't fully read.

You don't try to understand the context. And you have in your mind, oh, I'm a continuationist and somebody's coming at me.

They're trying to attack me. So I read into these comments what I want to read into them without understanding the context, without trying to understand the person and understanding what definition they're working with and understanding what definition

I'm working with. Because I've heard so many people, even in the recent conversation with what you and I were just talking about,

Dr. Michael Brown and Jim Osmond. I even heard Jim Osmond say, excuse me, you know, there's a spectrum.

Even in cessationist, there's a spectrum in continuationist. And before you begin to engage a conversation with somebody, especially online where you're not face to face, what end of the spectrum are you on?

You know what end of the spectrum? What definition am I working with? What is he working with?

And so we can we can be fair with one another, meet on good terms, understanding one another correctly before we begin to shoot our arrows, which

I find we do too quickly, especially online. We get to shoot our arrows.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Like I definitely see, especially within that debate topic of cessationism versus charismatic or continuationism.

There's definitely a lot of what's that called? Like over talking over each other, like you mentioned, there's not definitions aren't clear and they're talking past each other.

And so that is and then that's that's one another topic we can tackle, too. We can just discuss openly discuss because I think

I have a. And maybe I don't have a rare view of it, but I think

I have a kind of a rare view of continuationism because I do consider myself a continuationist.

Just on the mere fact I have a conviction of I don't see within scripture when when

I read scripture, I don't see the gifts ceasing. And so I was as a conviction would call myself a continuationist.

But maybe this is just us going into going into this topic where I would say the gifts of tongues are actual languages.

I would just and I would add in. That's one thing I actually agreed with Jim Osman in that debate of Dr.

Michael Brown on Bible Dinger's YouTube channel. He did say what he sees a lot of majority of what is called tongues today in a lot of churches is not what we see in the

Bible. Right. It's not biblical tongues. And I would agree because I would see from what

I see in scripture throughout the whole scripture is tongues being actual languages. And, you know, it's someone who doesn't doesn't doesn't know any language at all.

Like I'm not saying like, like, say, for instance, for me, like it's like I don't know any other like I don't know

German. But if I if, you know, if I started to speak in German fluently and understanding it right, then, you know, that is a tongue that the

Holy Spirit has given me as a gift. And so that is not, you know, example of gifted tongues.

Now, what usually is always asked next when I say that, right, is it's always asked.

And I said this on a live, but I had a big John from your talk of Big John on my channel.

I did. We did. We did. We did talk about it a little bit, a little bit. I said it's often asked that,

OK, what do you hold on? Angelic tongues, because that's what we see a lot of, I think, in our churches today, where if it's not an actual language, oh, they always kind of say it's an angelic tongue.

That's why you can't understand it. You know, it's some ecstatic utterance and stuff like that.

And so I would say. We see the one because they always go on,

Paul says, yeah, but Paul says, if I speak in the tongues of men of angels, I have no love. And I'm just a noisy symbol or, you know, noisy symbol and just an instrument being played.

And there's nothing is nothing. No benefit is nothing. Right. So. And I would say

Paul is using hyperbole there because what what he keeps going on to and I can bring up,

I don't know if you can bring up the verse or just a chapter where he says on the next line.

But if I had all wisdom and all knowledge, I had no love. Right. So so who has all wisdom and all knowledge?

It's it's God. Right. God has. So so Paul's not in. Paul's not saying he has.

An actual tongue of men and angels, like I said, a hyperbole, like, for example, I always use the example because I heard it and I think it's a good example where I would say to you,

Rob, if I was as tall as a house, I can take you on and we can go in a ring and fight.

I'm not literally saying I'm as literal tall as a house. Right. So, like, again,

I'm using hyperbole there. So I think that's what Paul is using there. Now, is there a tongue that or Pacific language that God assign angels in heaven right now?

It's a possibility. They could be right. I'm not I'm not denying that. It's just when I when I read the scriptures, that's what

I see Paul using there in that context. Right. Absolutely.

Well, and if you follow along with to me, what I see in scripture is that there was there was purpose in it.

And we do we do see in First Corinthians that it is for the edification of the brethren.

So I'm not sure where I'm not sure why some folks get that are continuations, get tripped up on the language,

I guess, because they don't use it. But we use the the language sign gifts. But to me, we use that language because it comes from scripture.

The company was signs and great wonders. So that's why we call them sign gifts.

They had a purpose. I mean, that's what the word sign means. It's a sign for something.

It was it was there to confirm the message to confirm the messenger of the tongues were to get the message across to someone of a different language.

And so in looking at First Corinthians 13, one, were you talking about speaking of tongues of men and of angels?

You know, I've heard so many times that when people give a definition of tongues, they're talking about it's an it's a known earthly language.

And I agree with that. But you also have this this verse here, verse one, it says and of angels.

So it can't be limited to a known earthly language.

If if there's the ability to speak in the tongue of a language, but you can still say it's a known language.

Right. Or or a real language, not not just gibberish. It's still a actual language policy.

There's there's tons of men. There's tons of angels. That means it's a language, language of angels, a language of men.

It's not just gibberish. So, you know,

I've heard different theories on that. And like just like just so many different angles that just a wide spectrum of charismatics that would explain how they explain that.

Like I heard one way where. OK, so you got the reason why people are hearing the what they either call gibberish or an ecstatic sound coming from these people that are claimed to have the gift of tongues.

Because it's it's there's it seems like they're trying to say something over and over and over again fast. And that's what you know, it's an ecstatic, ecstatic, ecstatic sound they're making where I've heard that.

Oh, well, that that's how it sounds to the ear. But for whoever the

Holy Spirit is trying to touch with that tongue, it's going to sound like a language of the person who's hearing it.

I've heard that theory. I don't see that in scripture at all.

That explanation of it because they say, yeah, that's what

I heard. Like, oh, it sounds to whoever the it's not meant for. It's going to sound like gibberish.

But whoever it's meant for, the Holy Spirit is going to translate into a language to them.

Right. Like I said, I don't I don't see that in scripture. I don't see scripture supporting that. Not like I said, not all charismatic say that right now.

OK, I'm just saying I heard that from a little I guess you can say maybe a minority of charismatic.

Yeah, I found this video. I want to try to share this because we're on the subject and talk about ecstatic utterances gibberish that that style of what people call speaking in tongues.

And this just for just for transparency, this is from the the cessationist cessationist movie

Facebook page. They shared a video and I'm not trying to be intentionally offensive to to anybody.

I just want to share this as an educational. Video, right?

I think it's your thoughts on it because I found it very interesting. I've not formulated any real thoughts on it.

I just I found it very interesting. I'm not sure if you've seen it or not, but but check out this video and let me know what you think.

Yeah, I'm not getting any.

Yeah, I'm not getting any sound. Maybe computer settings itself, the sound, the volume settings, maybe.

Maybe this is another aspect of this new sound card. I got to figure out how to get down from videos.

OK, anyway, so just just to give you a gist of what the video is.

This is a Hindu Kundalini sounds exactly like charismatic tongues. So she starts off by talking about other things.

But then she eventually in the video gets to where she begins to speak and she she was talking about hearing from the divine.

And then she begins to speak in tongues. And it sounds. So much.

Like what I've heard in my experience, what in the

Christian church claiming to become what tongues is.

Yeah, I've seen because I have gravy been edified by what

Justin Peters does in his ministry. And and he has shown in his what they call like a course,

I guess you can call it of him showing that he it's an older video.

But he has shown the similarities between the Hindu Kundalini or how we pronounce it between what charismatics are calling tongues today.

Yeah. And it's it's it's if you were to just cut the video off and just hear the sound, you would think, oh, that's a charismatic curse.

But then just because we're trying to video on, well, that's a Hindu cult, a cult.

Yeah. Yeah. And I would be interested to know how a how a charismatic continuationist would respond to that.

What is their response to that? So if you're charismatic continuationist out there, you'd like to chime in.

We'd love to hear from you. We're not trying to we're not trying to argue, trying to start arguing to be offensive. We just want to have a conversation.

We still got some folks watching us and we appreciate you watching. This is a fallback free for all weekend. So this is for you.

If you have any questions, comments, please leave them in the chat. Give a stream your permission to use your name so we can see who it is.

And also, if you want to join us live, I can put the link in there and you can join Elias and other reformer in and we can have a face to face conversation, which is probably the best way to have the conversation.

Oh, let me see if I can go to I'm trying to share it because I know you have it live on Truth and Love Network.

The Love Network on Facebook, on my personal page and on the network.

You too. That's where you can find us tonight and share it.

Now. And it is posted, I think. But yeah,

I have heard now I remember watching Ligonier's Ministries, one of their sessions.

It wasn't a conference. It was just one of their own. Someone from Ligonier doing a kind of like a church history type of thing where he was going to the

Pentecostal church history. And he didn't touch on the

Hindu Kundalini stuff. But he did mention when the

Pentecostal church was hit, hitting America came out in America at the time. There was a form of starting to form what we call today

Oneness Pentecostals, right? People who are Pentecostals right in the early of the Pentecostal were denying the

Trinity and claiming oneness. And there was a Trinitarian Pentecostal where obviously there was a big split.

There was, you know, splitting. And so people were like, OK, then if they're not brothers and we're splitting from them, then why are they having the gifts?

And what's up with that? And so the way. Like I said, the teacher in Ligonier, when he was talking about it, he said people, the

Trinitarian Pentecostals were saying, oh, no, that's demonic tongues. And if this is the one is Pentecostal doing that, then those are probably obviously demonic because they don't have the spirit if they're denying the true

God. Right. So I think that's one maybe way of how certain charismatics would explain it.

I got explained the Hindu Kundalini part. Like I said, not all.

Like you said, like if there's a charismatic watching, feel free to come on, because, you know, like I said, you know, if we can agree on the essentials of the faith, we can definitely have a discussion.

That's right. That's right. Yeah, we can we can be enlightened. And I'm always open to learn. I got so much work to learn.

I'm totally open to learning. One thing about before we move on, unless we can we just keep going and talking about this, this conversation.

I had this shirt made. I created the design and I had it and I had it made. But I've heard so many conversations and maybe you can you can help me with the podcast name.

It's the it's the guys that are they have a relationship with Sam Storms and his church and their continuationist and they have a lot of continuationist podcast episodes.

Right. Their name just left me. I can't remember. But he actually he was actually honest and they have a

YouTube channel and everything. I think they have a YouTube channel. They have a podcast. Not remember.

Not the Bremner radio guys, is it? Remnant radio. Yeah, that's OK. Yeah. Yeah. And I was listening to those guys.

And and when he was given a hit, he would when he was talking about it, I would breathe a sigh of relief because he made up.

He was honest about it. He made an honest comment. But I've heard so many and hearing so many conversations that they're not quite honest.

And I would love when you're when a continuationist is trying to represent a cessationist view or or a biblical view that that they would just be honest.

I made the shirt says cessationism. And then it says there is a verse because it is a verse.

There is a verse that says these things will cease. But you'll hear you'll hear in their conversation that there's no verse in the

Bible that says these things will cease. But that's not true. It's first Corinthians chapter 13, verse eight.

It says these things will cease. Now, we disagree on when that is. Right. And the guys that run a radio, they were honest when they when they made that conversation or made that comment that, you know, they quoted the verse.

And they said, you know, these things will cease when when the perfect.

Yep. So. So there is a verse. It just so happens that we disagree on when.

Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I remember going up, growing up and not growing up.

But but when I when I when I was saved, I was saved in the Spanish Church of God, which is the Spanish version. What Big John is

Church of God. And so my my I've always my my my pastor from that church, my former pastor.

He said, yeah, the gifts will cease in the second coming of Christ. Right. And so, like, yeah, like you said, like there is it's in the word.

It's the this these gifts will cease. But like you said, it's obviously when it is.

So, yeah, it does kind of gives I don't want to say annoyance, but it does give somewhat of a bother to people where there is charismatic.

I say, oh, there's no verse at all that says the gifts will cease. Where are they getting it from? Well, there there isn't. And yeah, I can't appreciate permanent radio guys for for being honest with that.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Let me ask you this question, too. But this come to my mind concern of the gifts of the spirit, exactly what the gifts are.

So you heard Jim Osmond in that conversation with Dr. Michael Brown. He talked about how and and I fall in and agree with him on that.

You know, the miraculous or miraculous things still continue.

God still works and does miraculous things. I completely agree with that. And that's where so many like in our group, in the true love network, where some of us are.

Sensationalists, some of us are continuous continuationists on different places on those spectrums.

But that's where most of us or all of us can agree. I think all of us agree that the miraculous still continues.

Amen. God still does miraculous things. So. This goes back to our conversation on definitions.

Yep. So what? What does scripture mean when it says gifts of the spirit?

What is the gift now is is the gift, the the actual healing, the actual tongue?

Or is it the gift to be able to administer? The prophecy administer the tongue, administer the healing.

That's kind of where I I'm at in trying to decipher what scripture is trying to say.

What is the gift that the spirit is giving in scripture in the first century at a time in the

New Testament church at the beginning? Is he giving a gift to administer these things or is or is it the the tongue, the gift, the healing, the actual rise?

Of course. It's it's a blessing, it's it's mercy, it's grace, it's kindness.

Well, maybe we can go. Yeah. And so like so like you're saying or you're asking is is it when the

Holy Spirit administers a gift like we'll give an example. Me right now, the

Holy Spirit wills to have me speak French to some people, actual

French to some people at a right now, preach the gospel. And then it's over.

I go home and. I believe I I will no longer speak

French. I will no longer even to know how to be after that, after it's done, after what the Holy Spirit wanted to do.

Right. I believe. Right. I don't I don't think that gift, the language stays with you.

That's what that's what I see in scripture. Right. I believe when it when the minister, when the spirit administers the gifts to you and works through you and you speak the tongue and the gospel is preached.

I believe that you don't you don't have that language anymore. Once once the purpose of that, like we said, this purpose is to these gifts.

And so once the purpose is finished with that, the Holy Spirit wanted to do, I believe you cannot have you know,

I won't speak French after that. Yeah. Right. I don't know if that maybe that answered your question from where I come from.

Yeah. Yes. And it also it stretches me and it causes me to think

I'm still thinking through these things, because when I read the first Corinthians 12 and 13, I read those verses and I read the language.

I read what Paul is telling us. It sounds like the Holy Spirit is is.

Gifting an individual. With the ability to administer those.

So they can they can prophesy, they can speak in tongues, they can they can heal, they can raise the dead, they they can administer those gifts where.

So this is where I get stressed, but this is where I find gray area in my mind. Scripture does speak in first Corinthians and Hebrews.

It's also it is according to the will, the will of God is according to the will of spirit. When these things take place.

And I think both both sides agree with that. It's according to the will of God or to the will of spirit.

So that challenges me in how I'm viewing first Corinthians, first Corinthians 13 and understanding it in such a way that the

Holy Spirit is giving them as administrators of those gifts versus what kind of what you were describing as.

Kind of a one time act and then then it leaves. I think about the apostles and I think about how

Peter, you know, when when he walked by somebody, he said, you know, silver and gold, I have none. But what

I do have, I give to you in the name of Jesus Christ, stand up and walk. So he was able to administer the gift that he was given to heal that man.

Right. And that's how to me it reads in first Corinthians 12 and 13, where the

Holy Spirit is gifting someone the ability to minister. And as they say, and this is where I would land personally.

And this is where when Dan and I did our series on sensationalism, continuationism, this is where he and I kind of differed a little bit.

The gifting to be able to administer these things is what has ceased.

The miraculous hasn't ceased where it's according to the will of God, according to the will of spirit. He still does miraculous things even to this day.

Absolutely. But so, you know, they didn't mean to cut you off. I'm sorry.

So would you so if so, would you say they could like, like if someone is in the mission far off in the jungle and he doesn't know the language, would you say the

Holy Spirit can gift him? Like I would say, as just a momentary thing, the gift of that language of a tribe.

And then, you know, once the purpose is once he has completed the purpose, obviously, he's not going to speak that language anymore.

Like, say, if he goes home and you know what I mean? Or, you know, I don't know if you would say like the Holy Spirit would administer that that gift today or no.

So that's another place where I would have to shore up my own doctrine.

So at this point, I would say if I'm going to be consistent, then and I'm saying that the miraculous still happens.

God does have the ability and that he could do whatever he wants to.

And he can do that. He can do that if he wants to. Now, he now I think both sides would agree that God is going to stay within the boundaries that he has formed for himself.

You know, he can't go outside of himself and do things that are inconsistent with his character and nature. So if if those things have ceased, if it's true in Scripture that those things have ceased and there's no more speaking in tongues, period, draw the line in the sand.

I'm just saying, yeah, then then the Lord would not, even though he has the ability and he could, he's not going to go out his character and do that if he has decided that he said so already.

Right, right. So, yeah, I understand the logic you just laid out. Yeah, I just want to be consistent.

Right. Yeah, no, I definitely understand that. And I would definitely

I definitely appreciate the consistency with that. I definitely do. And like I said,

I'm a rare form of continuations where I laid out what I believe tongues are. And I would even say it's.

The way the church has gone, I remember

I'm a historic premillennialist, but definitely there is the gospel has gone out way more in today than than the days of the apostles.

Right. Gospel has gone forth and reached throughout the world in a general sense.

Right. Obviously, not every single person has probably heard the gospel, but I think you get what I'm saying here. And so obviously,

I think the gifts of prophecy and tongues. Isn't as usual or common.

I don't think the Holy Spirit is administering these gifts as common as he did in the days of the apostle or in or in the first few centuries of the church age.

Right. And so I would say I I would say I think the

Holy Spirit is probably using these gifts or administering these gifts onto believers, most likely in the missionary field where the gospel hasn't been reached yet.

Right. And so. Yeah, not not saying could he use it amongst in a church in America like, you know, could he use it in my local church today?

Where if you wanted to administer a particular tongue and as an interpreter, who could, of course.

But I just think and I don't think it's the norm, as we see in a lot of charismatic churches. Right. They there's a lot of charismatic churches that want to make it the norm.

And I don't see I don't see that happening, like we like we like we read in the book of Acts and in what we like the first few centuries.

Right. I don't know if I made that kind of clear. Yeah, absolutely. So let me ask you this and let me get your opinion on whether you think this logic is consistent.

So this is almost like a review of the conversation. Right. Michael Brown and Jim Osmond, this is what it ended up being.

But that's cool. So you brought it up and it was brought up in the conversation you talked about after the first century, during the patristic period, the church fathers.

There's some historians that have and Dr. Michael Brown, he brought it up that there's some historians that said the there's record of these things, these miraculous things still happening.

And I can't remember Osmond's response. Maybe it was. You know, maybe it's the fact that, you know, we don't deny miraculous happening.

Right. I can't remember that was a response or not. But here's another line of thinking. I want to get your opinion on whether it's consistent logic.

So if if you're a cessationist and you go back to first Corinthians 13, eight and.

When it says these things will cease when the when the perfect comes and your answer to that is, well, we're speaking of the completed revelation script.

That's that's the answer that you're giving. It hadn't it hadn't been put together completely at that point.

So it would make sense that those things continued a little while after the apostle.

If that's your answer to the cessationist argument, right? OK, I see. Yeah. Yep.

I'm tracking. Yep. OK. OK. I just want to make sure that that was consistent logic.

Right. Yep. If that's your answer, you know, I mean, even a lot of cessationists, even

Dan, who's a cessationist, you know, he doesn't use first Corinthians eight to say that was the completed scripture.

I'm I lean more towards. Yes. But, you know, I'm open to learn because it's it's not as clear as for us.

I can. I can, I can sympathize the word

I can sympathize with cessationist that that would say he's talking about the completion of the canon.

And you said 13, 13, verse eight, right? Of course. Yeah, right.

I can sympathize and to say I can see where they might be saying it's the completion of the canon. And I would just say as a friendly, maybe, yeah, friendly pushback where how would you view the face of, you know, we see in a mirror dimly, but now face to face part, because, like I said, like I think he's he's talking about seeing

Christ at the second coming, you know, face to face with him. So, yeah,

I always I always wanted to ask a cessationist that would view it that way. How how would you view how would you interpret those words when

Paul was Paul is saying that face to face part? That that is a really good question.

And it's it's I mean, that's why we go back and forth. Right. It's because there's not a cut and dry chapter where it's answered, you know, to to these questions.

Right. If you're a continuationist and you're hardball about it, you have to be honest to say, look, it's it's not as clear as you want it to be.

And a cessationist has to say the same thing. And that's a really good question. You know, we go back to our hermeneutics, trying to interpret scripture with scripture.

And with these harder texts, all that I can do is the best that I can.

So one of the things that I think about, if I'm going if I'm going to hold that as my answer, that the completed revelation, that scripture, the canon, completed canon is is when the perfect comes.

That's when these things have ceased. One of the verses that come to my mind is is the

Hebrews passage. I think it's Hebrews chapter one that in in former days,

God spoke through the men of old prophets. Yep. But now he's spoken to his son.

And so the completed revelation, even though there's the earth could not contain everything that he said and did, we still have what

God wanted us to have about his son. Right. In scripture. I think that that may be the closest that I can get to an answer to that question.

Right. It's sort of like a parallel of that. When Paul was saying face to face, it is paralleling what the writer of Hebrews is saying when what you just said, the old days prophets and dreams.

But now he's speaking to his son. Yeah. And I'm going back and forth, like from your screen, our screen to I have the

Bible on my computer here. Can I go back to whatever scripture you bring up?

I'll go. I'll bring it up on my own Bible thing. Yes, that is interesting.

I would definitely I would definitely say what Hebrew, what the writer of Hebrews is saying there, what you just mentioned.

I would say, yes, he is talking about what we see in scripture about the

Lord Jesus. Right. And so and that's one thing where I was even talking with my brother in law.

Right. Where he would agree where I think what we see a lot in the church today, and I think we can

I can only speak for in America that I live in America. I don't know what's going on across the world. I can say within the church in America today,

I think there is a lack of understanding or just the teaching of the sufficiency of scripture in the in the church in America today.

And so, yeah, and he would agree and he agrees. Scripture is sufficient.

And he's a he's a Pentecostal. One day I got to have my brother, brother in law on my channel and we got to have like a just a chill conversation, because I'm always bringing him up because it's true that we do discuss our differences whenever we can.

Obviously, you know, like when we're together, we try to, you know, just have, you know, kind of like a family time thing. But when we can, we talk about it and we can go on like to like three in the morning, one on one and sometimes.

And so, yeah, and so because what we see a lot in these charismatic church, what

I see, what I see, you know, like there's always a wanting, oh, you know, a wanting of a prophetic utterance or someone telling them something in a prophetic way.

And or, you know, and so like I would say, well, you have the scripture for that. You have the word, you have the sure word of God, you know, because are you going to tell

God, well, God, you didn't. I asked for a prophetic utterance or someone, you just send me a prophet and to tell me something.

Well, God's going to tell you, you know, well, you had my word. Right. And so.

So, yeah, I definitely agree with the sufficiency of scripture.

Yeah. And that's why I said, like, I don't think these gifts are administered as the norm.

I don't think they are for the norm, especially, especially, especially in our in our day.

Yeah. So. I don't know what it kind of like answer anything you had wondering where I stand.

Absolutely. Here's another here's another interesting wrench that gets thrown into this conversation.

I've not heard of being brought up much. I brought it up when we had there was a guy who has another podcast.

He's local to me and we had him on. And it wasn't a.

It wasn't a gang up on him because we do have continuationists and cessationists in our group.

He's a continuationist and he was talking about cessationism. He was talking about Calvinism. So I wanted to bring him on, have a conversation.

And this is something I brought up to him. And that's something I brought up to my continuationist brothers in our group.

So when I begin to hear the argument that we just talked about, you know, they will cease when we see things, you know, face to face.

When the perfect comes, we see things face to face. For now, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face in verse 12.

Now, I know in part, but then I want to fully just as I have fully been known. So I hear that.

I struggle with giving a response. I did the best I could with you. So I begin to sympathize with the other side, the continuationist side.

And then here comes this wrench that gets thrown in in verse 13. So what's the what's the definition of faith?

According to Hebrews chapter 11, verse one, it says, Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen.

The conviction of the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. So we read all these verses, verses eight through 12, and then we get to verse 13.

And it says, but now faith, hope, love, abide, these three.

But the greatest of these is love. So you have faith.

It's going to continue to abide after these things cease. And we just read that they're going to cease after we have seen we've seen now in a mirror dimly.

Then we're going to see face to face. So our faith is going to be made sight.

So we no longer need faith. However, faith is going to abide.

So their argument is and what they what they told me was, well, even even when we're in heaven, we'll still need faith.

Not according to the definition of Hebrews 11 one. This is a conviction of things not seen in heaven.

I'm going to see I'm going to see Jesus face to face. I want to, you know, I'm going to see the presence, see angels.

I'm going to see whatever he's built on the other side. I want to see it with my own eyes that he's given me in my glorified body.

I want to see that. But faith here in verse 13 says faith is going to abide.

It's going to continue. And that's one of the arguments continuationist.

They say, well, if you don't believe in gifts, you don't believe in faith because faith is a gift.

Well, yeah, I believe in faith as a gift because it says it abides. It continues. All right. Yeah. Here's another thing.

I'm sorry to keep rambling on and on. But here's another. Here's another inconsistency that I think is so funny.

Some some continuationists who are anti Calvinist. They they use this argument here that I just said, you cessationist, you think that the gifts have ceased.

But but here it says faith is a gift. You don't believe in faith, do you? Well, yeah, we believe.

Well. I'm also a Calvinist, and that's why I believe that faith is a gift.

Right. Yeah. Yes. Faith is a gift from God.

And I there was a while ago before I came. Oh, was it before?

I think. Yeah. I think that's before I came informed. Maybe I was just hearing. These words were formed a

Calvinist. There was a guy who was I think he was reviewing the American Gospel documentary.

I think it was that if I'm correct, it was a while ago. And he kept using the word

Calvinist Calvinist. But I think he was trying to use the word cessationist. But he was conflating Calvinist with sensationism because I don't know.

I don't know why. Maybe he every run in with Calvinism. It's always a cessationist. I don't know what he has experienced.

But I have seen that with among a lot of charismatics that they would equate Calvinist. OK, cessationist.

Then, you know, they would treat them, you know, not treat them, but like kind of have a guard up in sort of way.

Yeah, totally same experience. And like just like you, I want to be fair to them.

That may be their experience that any any cessationist that they come in contact with have been a

Calvinist and vice versa. That may be their experience. However, this is what I've tried to get across to some of them that I've had a conversation with.

Look. Your argument against cessationism can't be

I'm a Calvinist. That's not an argument against cessation. Yeah, I yeah.

And it's funny because. When I be. I did before I became a former,

I did I never equated Calvinism with cessationism, but it did come to mind when

I started becoming informed. I said, OK, then what I said to myself, what do

I do with these gifts? What do I do with the gifts of the spirit? And what do I do with cessationism and continuationism now that, you know,

I'm becoming reformed? I'm seeing myself basically, you know, you know, five pointer.

You can say, so what do I do with these gifts? And so but not that I was like I said,

I was like, OK, I'm a Calvinist and therefore I must be a cessationist. I wasn't thinking that, but it did come to mind where.

Now that I hold to these great, beautiful truths of scripture that we would call

Calvinism. Are they consistent in a way where I can hold to these truths consistently by being a continuationist?

I was just wrestling with that in my within myself and just very shortly. I wasn't going through a very period of long period of time, right?

I'm thinking that, but I was wrestling with that at one point. Yeah. Well, for me, the stronger argument,

I mean, if you're going to make strongman's and all that, I mean, the stronger argument is not to accuse somebody of being a

Calvinist, but the. It is what comes out of Reformation is the five solos, you know, solo scriptura, which is, you know, kind of what you've been hitting that all along the.

Sufficiency of scripture. Yeah, I actually have a poster with the timeline of the

Reformation right here. We're trying to have it up here, but it kept falling down.

That's why I grabbed it. But but yes, it's it. That's what I see. Like I said, like I mentioned before,

I just see a lack of sufficiency of scripture, a lack of many of the church today in America, not knowing what is solo scriptura.

So it's a solo scriptura, but not also not just solo scriptura, but tota scriptura, not isolating certain texts that we see in scripture, but taking all of scripture.

Right. And putting it in a consistent, balanced view. Yeah. Yeah, I find it so interesting you.

And. I would consider Big John in this camp where he he believes in the sufficiency of scripture and he also is a continuation.

Same thing with with Brother Pastor Jonathan Foster is in our group. He's a he's a reformed

Baptist. He's Calvinistic. But he's also a continuationist. He believes in the sufficiency of scripture.

I'm a cessationist. I believe in the sufficiency of scripture. And so that will be interesting conversation to have.

That spectrum. I you mentioned Sam Storms a while ago. He I don't know if you heard this saying he did.

He does say the reason why he is a continuationist is because of solo scriptura.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. He believes that's what scripture teaches. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And so. Yeah. And. Obviously me with continuations.

I would have to agree with that statement. Obviously. Obviously. Right. It's it's it's you know. But yeah.

I just I mean maybe you heard this where I think it's a strong man and nothing you'd say it.

But because obviously you just admitted that obviously there are continuations continuationists that are that would hold to sufficiency of scripture.

Don't don't. Don't go beyond that. And but I would you say do you do see some strong man of maybe some in I think mainly in the online world where there are cessationists that would say, oh, all continuationists across across the board.

They they're in practice. They deny sufficiency of scripture. So scriptura. Do you see that in the online world from certain not all cessation from saying like maybe some from a few cessationists out there straw manning in a way?

Well, absolutely. I mean, we make especially especially online like you're talking about generally generalizations are made constantly.

Right. Umbrella broad brush statements are made continuously. And we just can't do that.

Right. You know, speak to the individual that you're speaking to learn, learn where they're on the spectrum, what definition they're working with.

Like we talked about before and have a good conversation and just throw those broad brush umbrellas generalization statements and assumptions out the window.

Correct. Because it happens all the time. But according to the subject that you're talking about, you brought it up before and it come out of that conversation between Jim Osborne and Michael Brown.

And it come up in the chat, the live chat that you're talking about when Michael Brown was thought about, we need revelation.

Right. To help us with our decision. And so I think that's where the the arguments from the cessationists that would come from when they're talking about.

Yeah, all continuationists, they're they're a little inconsistent. They don't believe in solar scripture because they believe that they need extra revelation.

Kind of like Michael Brown was talking about. Yeah, I just agree with Michael Brown on that. I definitely did.

I would say, don't we have scripture? Like I said, we especially in the context of what he was saying, like, like I said, like he was giving examples.

And I love Dr. Brown dearly. He was giving the examples like, you know, let's say if you're if you feel like God is, you know, or like there's a missionary trip coming up or something like that.

And you need to hear from God. You're not going to get that from scripture where you that's where you need the extra revelation and stuff like that.

And that's when the red flag started coming up in the chat. And people were and then after that, that's where people were wanting to have said, like, you know, there needs to be a definition.

What does he mean by a revelation? Right. That we need revelation outside of scripture. What does he mean by that? And like I said before, is he talking about maybe a burden?

Right. Because I think we all can agree that the Lord does give burden on our hearts. You know, maybe, you know, and I think even

Justin Peters, I remember him here saying hearing him saying that. But like the Lord could give you a burden to preach the gospel to someone.

You know, it's not, you know, necessarily you're receiving extra revelation.

It's just a burden the Lord is placing on your heart. And that's why that's what I want to know from Dr.

Michael Brown. What does he mean by receiving extra revelation in those certain contexts? Because, yeah,

I would definitely disagree. No, we have scripture for you. You have scripture, you go in prayer.

You ask God for clarity. When you're reading his word in certain circumstances and you just, you know, just pray that the

Lord is you are using good discernment in certain situations. Right. And so, yeah,

I definitely disagree with Dr. Michael Brown on that. Yeah. On that point. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, one of the other arguments is for the cessation is, is that these these gifts that will cease are the revelatory gifts, the prophecy, the tongues, the interpretation of tongues.

And that's kind of that's kind of what's listed there. First Corinthians 13, though, are the things that are that will cease those revelatory gifts.

And you've heard us. If you're listening, you've heard us use the language, language, revelation, the completed revelation, completed script and completed.

And God has revealed to us all that, though, that he's wanted us to know in scripture. So, you know,

I guess the argument from the cessation aside is that that's why these things have ceased is because, you know, he's given to us all that we've needed.

But here's here's the wrench for me. That that causes me to think further.

If you're a cessationist, you're going to you're going to say that, well, the the gift of miracles, of healing, raising from the dead, those things have ceased.

And those things are not revelatory gifts. And so I'm like, well,

OK, well, how to how do I as a as a cessationist, how do I answer that question? If it's just based on revelation, but then you have gifts that I'm claiming that have ceased.

Are not part of the revelatory gifts, right? What's my answer to that? And that kind of goes back to that's why

I was saying before the Holy Spirit gifted at that time the ability to administer the gifts.

Because to me, you have a hard time answering that question. If your answer to this question is, well, the revelatory gifts have ceased.

But you're also saying that healing miracle and raising from the dead, you're also saying that those things have ceased.

So it can't be just based on revelatory gifts. Right. So and it's also based on how it's read.

I'd like to find that verse next time you if you want to jump in and let me. Yeah, I and I think and I'm not saying all cessation issues.

I've heard have heard cessation is that I'm not saying they get around that to get around it.

But I have heard the saying where, oh, it's not revelatory. It's they would just call it the apostolic gifts.

Apostolic sign gifts, right? It's just for the apostles in the apostolic age of the church when the apostles are still around.

Yeah. And so I think maybe that's how certain cessationists might explain why they would they would say, yes, it's revelatory gifts that would cease.

And then to come to your question where, OK, what about the other ones that aren't about revelatory revelation? They would say, well, that that that would just that would fall in the umbrella under the umbrella of the apostolic gifts.

Yeah, right. Apostolic sign gifts. Yeah. Let me share with you these verses. And you tell me, just be honest with me, if you you may not agree, but you can tell me if you can see where where I'm getting what

I'm getting. Right. So I'm in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Starting in verse 28, and this is where I get when

I say when I read Paul in 1 Corinthians, how it reads to me, it reads as if the

Holy Spirit is given. Some people, because not everybody is clear here in these verses.

Not everybody had all the gifts they were given, you know, given to certain people. But. These gifts were given to people to administer them.

So in verse 28, and God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, the miracles, the gifts of healings, helps administrations, various kinds of tongues.

All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they?

All are not workers of miracles, are they? Do you hear that language? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

So the gift to me here is I've been given the gift of being a worker of a miracle to administer that gift of a miracle.

And I see that being different than. Let's just say that if they have ceased.

But God still does miraculous today. We go and we pray for somebody.

That doesn't mean that I have the the gift of miracles that I'm, you know, administering that gift.

And in the name of Jesus, I'm healing this person. I'm praying that God would heal this person.

Right. And notice what it says there are workers of miracles, right?

Plural meaning it's not just one miracle. Oh, you have to give the miracle. Well, no, it's miracles.

And, you know, it's plural, just like the gifts of healings. Right. There's many.

It doesn't just fall under one certain maybe set of example. There's many healings that the

Lord does in someone's life. Yeah. Right. I mean, does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely see where you're coming from, because you're it's it's because Paul is separating all not apostles.

Are they? And it goes on. All not prophets. Are they in all not teachers? Are they? So these are separate things that Paul is separating here in Corinthians.

And he's saying not everyone does these things. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say that the the worker of miracles is an office, but it's right.

It's in the same. If you want to compare it to that, because you have offices here, apostles, prophets and teachers.

So, I mean, you have different. Yeah, because he's laying out offices, but he's also laying out gifts as well.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And he says, but earnestly desire the greater gifts and I shall and I show you a still more excellent way.

And what is he goes on 13 tongues, right?

He goes on. And what does he say? Hold on, let me see if I can find the verse real quick going through.

Is it in 13? I'm trying to I kind of get the word mixed up sometimes in my head where maybe it's a chapter or chapter where he says prophecy is actually a greater gift than the tongues part.

Is that in 13 or 14? All right here 14.

I think it's important. Yeah. Desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy right for one speaks in the tongue does not speak to that man, but to God for no one understands what in his spirit.

He speaks mysteries, but the one who prophesied speaks to men for a vacation. So obviously Paul and first Corinthians 14, you see him.

I'm putting prophecy in a in a higher greater gift than the gifts of tongues.

Right? And that's where you see in 12 where I think he's saying burn as he desired the greater gifts, right?

So Paul is mentioning, hey, there's gifts greater than maybe one or the other. And so yeah,

I in and maybe this may I kind of went off a little off topic here. I just see where there are greater gifts than the other.

And so what I see charismatic said a that they're emphasizing all at these tongues and prophecy.

This is what it looks like. What you know, and I just don't see. That in scripture where where people people say, oh, this is what tongues are, and this is what prophecy is.

Yeah, the tongues. Yeah, tongues are actual languages. Prophecy is what word lays out.

I just see as the apostle Paul separating gifts and offices. Right.

But he's also elevating maybe one office over the other. Yeah. This is where me knowing

Greek would help out a whole lot. Which I don't I don't know, like I should, but it seems like an option could be in this specific conversation that we're having about the earnestly desire the greater gifts.

And I'll show you still more excellent way. And then he leads into love.

You can speak in tongues. You can prophesy. But if you don't have love, you're just a clanging symbol.

In verse 14, verse one, the one that you were quoting, pursue love. And this is where the

Greek would come in handy. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. It seems to me that the greater gifts is the love.

Because if but especially that you may prophesy. If you don't have love, you're a clanging symbol.

Right. That's why you need to desire these these greater things, which is love, joy, kindness.

Amen. If you don't, you're not prophesying. You're not you're not speaking in tongues, you know, according to the world's fear.

And that's the thing, too, where a majority of what we see in charismatic churches today, they're just emphasizing the gift itself, tongue prophecy.

But are you emphasizing love? Is that if you don't have love like we did, like we just read in the word, you're just a clanging symbol.

And also, too, are they are they glorifying the gift giver? Right. It's God who is giving these gifts, right?

The Holy Spirit. And what is the ministry? What is the role of the Holy Spirit? Right. It's a it's a point to Christ.

Right. So we see a lot. I, I see a lot of these charismatic churches just emphasizing just on the gifts.

And it's in in what we what I see is just putting emphasis on themselves. And but but Christ, I don't see

Christ being glorified. And what I see in a lot of these charismatic churches. Right. Well, brother, we have we have gone about an hour and ten minutes.

I really appreciate you being on. And it was fun that we ended up talking about cessation and continuation.

Yeah, it was a good conversation. I was I was pleased to cross swords with you and be sharpened.

Oh, yeah. I love to enjoy it. I hope everybody that watched was edified. And what

I want to do is I want to I want to share the gospel and then pray before we close shop here.

OK, but I think I really believe that if everybody is honest, if you're a continuation, you're sensationalist, you're a

Christian nationalist, Christian nationalist, non -Christian nationalist. All these different controversial topics,

Calvinist, non -Calvinist that we talked about tonight. The the greatest. Miracle.

Is that of God bringing. A dead man to life, making an enemy, a friend of justifying the wicked, and he was only able to do that because of his son.

We are the wicked. We are enemies of God in our mouth, the wicked word. We have we have inherited

Adam's sin nature. They disobey God in the garden. And we inherited that sin nature.

And we can't help but do anything other than our sin nature tells us to do, which is to sin, disobey

God, transgress the law and displease God. That's that's all our hearts want to do apart from Christ.

And we must realize that I implore you to to. Open your eyes to that, that we have all broken the law, broken the

Ten Commandments. We've all stolen. We've all lost it. We've all taken God's name in vain. We will not get the

Sabbath fully go through every single one of them. And James Chapter two, verse 10 says that you kept a whole long at someone at one point.

You're guilty of it all. And there's no way that we could ever be perfect. There's no way we could ever make up for.

Breaking God's law, coming short of his glory. There's there's only one way there was only one, only ever one plan, and that was for God to rescue us.

Just show us his loving kindness. Show us his mercy. Show us his forgiveness by granting us repentance and giving us the gift of faith.

That's the only way the only means that we can be made right with God. The only way that we can live on the way that we can see him and live eternally.

Only way that we can have joy in this life is if we turn to Christ, trusting in him and repenting of our sins.

So I would implore you, if you have not done that, that you would seek him today in repentance and faith and share that and share that good news.

And that's the whole reason that we're together. Elias and I, the only reason the Truth and Love Network is together is to glorify

God and to share the good news of Jesus Christ. And so we would implore you to deeply ponder on that, your stance before God and your need of salvation in Jesus Christ.

Elias, will you close us in prayer? I will. And before I do close in prayer, I do want to say, and I said this on previous lives, where when you see two brothers in the

Lord coming together with their differences, opening the word, wanting to iron, sharpen iron,

I think you can appreciate that because what's the one thing that you see between both of them, even though they have their disagreements and they might still walk away with disagreeing, you see them trying to be as faithful as they can to the word of God itself.

And so that's one thing we can we can both appreciate, appreciate about each other, especially even all brothers and sisters out there that are they do come together in their differences and open the word of God together.

Yep. Well, all right. I'll close in prayer. Dear Lord, we just come before you today just to ask for your guidance in these, in these times where we know there are in the online world today,

Lord, where people are connecting so fast and just talking to each other in a way where it's there just to click a button away.

And just Lord, we just ask for your guidance and wisdom. And through your word, we ask that you give us clarity,

Lord, understanding your word because we do not want to become prideful amongst each other,

Lord. And that we ask that you are glorified, Lord, that you, Lord Jesus Christ, are glorified in everything.

It's all about you, Lord. It's all pointing to you and what you have done for us on the cross,

Lord. And that is the purpose, purpose of these gifts or that, that it is that the church re -edified, that the world, that the gospel is brought forth to the world.

Lord, that your gospel is brought forth to the lost, Lord, and that us as believers are reading your word daily,

Lord, and that we are coming together and opening your word and staying true to your word, Lord. And I pray that this, this live today,

Lord, reaches somebody who may not know you, Lord, and that it's not saved and that they hear the gospel,

Lord, today. And I also pray that, Lord, that any believer watching today, that they may be edified and encouraged by this,

Lord. We ask these things in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Thank you all for watching the

Truth in Love podcast. We really appreciate it. If you haven't already, go like us, subscribe, share on the

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Go on there and register. Let us know that you're coming. And if you haven't already, find the Reformer Ian on YouTube.

Like and subscribe to my brother. And remember that Jesus is King. Amen. Go live in the victory of Christ.

with the authority of Christ. Go share the gospel of Christ. We hope to see you soon. Okay.