Mormons & Walter Martin

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00:01

Non -rockabotas must stop! I don't want to rock the boat,

00:07

I want to sink it! Are you going to bark all day, little doggie?

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Or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional? Delusional is okay in your world view.

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I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay.

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It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:48

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

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Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

01:00

That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:09

Take an amazing journey, so you will never be the same again.

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But in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy. Always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.

01:35

You do it with gentleness and respect. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

01:42

Coming at you guys from Phoenix, Arizona, which is actually unusually not so hot today. Yeah, it's been great.

01:48

Which has been wonderful. I am Jeff Durbin. They call me the Ninja. And you're watching Apologia Radio live stream broadcast.

01:55

It is also available for everybody at ApologiaStudios .com. You guys can download and listen to,

02:02

I think, over 200 radio shows and episodes, podcasts, a whole host of issues.

02:09

Some of the greatest theologians, scientists, scholars in the world today have joined us in some amazing episodes.

02:15

So we're grateful for those. I am, again, the Ninja that is over there. Zach Attack. What's up, everybody?

02:20

He is Zachary Conover. He's the Director of Communications at EndAbortionNow .com. How are things going with EndAbortionNow .com,

02:26

bro? Phenomenal, man. It's so exciting. Do we have any plans for the future, some things that we are working on for EndAbortionNow?

02:34

We are working on quite a few things. So not just our local outreach here, which we're at every single week, but also up and coming.

02:42

We're going to be speaking in a prophetic way to our local legislature here regarding the protection of unborn children in the state of Arizona.

02:49

Well, let's introduce Joy real fast. Let's get more into that just so everyone knows what's happening. Be prayerful about that and they can join with us.

02:55

If you're in Arizona in particular, you need to be partnering with us on this. So that is Joy the girl right there. Hello. How are things going with Sheologians?

03:02

Good. Good. You know, there's like a little bit of a, there's always like a lot of love coming our way.

03:10

And then just like a little bit of dislike. Right. It's fine. Every once in a while, someone comes and they're like,

03:17

I don't like the way they're shaking things up around here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we do. For End Abortion Now.

03:23

Yeah. We like it. It's kind of a mix. You know, you get, you get a lot of love and you get a lot of hate. But yeah, Summer's very good at social media interaction.

03:31

Yeah. So sheologians .com. Sheologians .com. That's us. That's the website. You guys are awesome, man.

03:37

I love those episodes. I listen to the episodes on feminism and that's how you get equipped. That's right. So you can also go to apologiestudios .com

03:44

if you're there and getting all the episodes and TV shows. If you guys are all accessed, getting all the training, you're going to Apology Academy.

03:49

You'll notice that we just updated the Sheologians portion. So you can get connected with Sheologians also through apologiestudios .com.

03:57

So you guys can get all that stuff, all to your listening satisfaction and desire. So Zach, let's talk.

04:03

Yeah, let's talk. Locally, we need to sort of start preparing people for what is coming. Yeah. In terms of our effort to speak prophetically to the local magistrates.

04:13

What are we doing in Arizona for the next part of the year? Well, real briefly, Arizona is unique in terms of having a law on the books already that would criminalize abortion.

04:24

So it's unique. And there's only a handful of states that have current legislation. It's never been overturned, never been rescinded.

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That actually prescribes criminal offense to this act. Whether it's done chemically, surgically, but it prohibits the act itself.

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And unfortunately, our legislatures have listened to the Supreme Court and just accepted that as the overriding principle over this state law.

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So our goal is to make a lot of noise surrounding that and just make people aware of the statute,

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Arizona Statute 13 -3603, which makes it very, very clear. Our homicide code in Arizona state law includes an unborn child at any stage of development.

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If you kill someone, even under that classifies. So unborn child, any stage of development, that's homicide, murder.

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First, second, third degree. So our role is to speak prophetically to our local magistrates, which we're going to be doing that very soon.

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We're going to call them to essentially enforce the law that's already on the books. And so first it comes with making everybody aware of it, hopefully getting the local churches in the area to join on board with us and to take up this mantle to inform our legislatures that they are responsible.

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They need to enforce the law. We're not being lawless in telling them what they need to do. We're actually trying to obey the law and make sure that they not only obey

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Arizona state law, but also the law of God that commands us not to murder and to preserve life. It's interesting because we've been sounding the alarm on this for some time, but what helped a bit recently was an article by azcentral talking about the fact that abortion is illegal in Arizona right now, 13 -3603.

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That's right. Yeah, that was kind of a welcome surprise to see. I mean, azcentral,

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I mean, that's local news. So they publish it. And so for all the naysayers that say, well, you're crazy. There's no such law.

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You're making it up. You're misinterpreting it. It was like, well, finally, we got a little bit of support from somebody who's not a church, because that's just the way that it is.

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It's illegal in Arizona to have an abortion. But again, we've been listening to the faulty premise of the

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Supreme Court and also been listening to really wrong view of how law works in this country.

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Yeah. And that is just a misunderstanding of the way our nation was founded and set up and what the role of the states are.

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That's right. The Supreme Court is not allowed to create legislation. Our constitutional documents say that that is in the hands of Congress.

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It's not in the hands of the Supreme Court. And not only is it a faulty premise when they said that it's potential human life, that's factually an error.

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But it's a faulty premise to say that the states now need to yield to that opinion. They don't.

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And we're going to try to be putting pressure, righteous, godly, controversy pressure upon our local magistrates.

07:11

So that's what's up with that. So I want to encourage everybody to go to ApologiaStudios .com. If you haven't been there yet, go check it out.

07:16

We have, again, lots and lots of radio shows. You've got Sheologians on there. You've got Apologia TV, Apologia After Show, and you've got

07:23

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08:01

We, of course, have Next Week with Jeff Durbin restarting very, very soon. We're excited about that. We actually have our first guest all set up.

08:08

But that's a secret. It's a secret right now, but we'll let you guys in on that as we get closer to it. So that is what's going on with the update.

08:15

So let's sort of dive in today to your thing. Okay. Which I don't even know what it is.

08:22

Well, I have an important article that I would like to talk about and discuss. I can't read the title of it because it includes an expletive.

08:31

Okay. But I'm just going to set you guys up. So this article is about Jesse, who is a macaw or parrot.

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Oh, I love macaws, and I'm terrified of them. Right. So I saw this, and I thought, not only is this weird, but Jeff likes birds.

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So let's talk about it. I have two Quaker parrots. I want an African gray. Do they eat oats?

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I don't know. Do Quaker parrots eat oats? Of course,

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I should have known coming from Zach. There was something to that. No. Go ahead. Always the dad jokes.

09:10

He's always got the dad jokes. Okay. So this macaw escaped her home, and she sat on a neighbor's roof for three days.

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This happened in London. So there was a macaw sitting on someone's roof for three days.

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The owners were unable to get her down. And so a few animal welfare groups also joined her in her attempt to get this parrot down off of her neighbor's roof.

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That's awesome. And eventually, firefighters, the London Fire Brigade, was called with their ladder.

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So the firefighters, firefighters who train to save people's lives from burning buildings.

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Right. And pull cats from trees. Yes. And parrots from roofs, apparently. That's somewhere in the job description.

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They were instructed to bond with the parrot before they attempted to grab it off the roof.

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That's so great. And by doing that, they were supposed to say, I love you to the parrot. So the parrot did respond with,

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I love you. But then what the firefighters discovered is that this parrot definitely has a potty mouth, because a string of expletives is what came next.

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Specifically, F off. Wow. To the person trying to.

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Apparently, this parrot did not want to be rescued. I love you. And then the following exchange.

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So they were also the firefighters attempted to tell her to come, but in other languages.

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So English, Turkish and Greek. So this parrot knows three different languages.

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Who owned this bird? Just a trilingual parrot. A very angry professor. Right. Yeah.

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Yeah. Someone who's very smart and doesn't care. Call it angry birds.

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Gives no cares. Anyway. So all this production comes together.

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They're speaking to this. They're literally speaking to this parrot, this bird in other languages.

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They're telling this bird, I love you, firefighters. And then the bird just flies off and goes on another roof and eventually returned home.

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Of its own accord. Yeah. On its own time. Right. On its own time. Look, I want to come home when

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I'm ready. That's right. Yeah. He just wanted to chill on a rooftop for a little bit. Stellar asked me to go to the

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Arizona bird store a couple of days ago. So Candy and I were like, okay, we'll go. Look, we're not buying a bird. That's a really cool store. It is awesome.

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They have like a room that you can walk into with like big hoops that they're all like the birds are just out in the room.

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And so it's like very cool. But also slightly terrifying. It's terrifying. More than stinky.

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Isn't it terrifying? Yes. There's just flying creatures. And you're not allowed to touch any of the birds unless you have the help of someone who works there.

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You have peanuts. But when I was in there, there was an African gray that I was just looking at. I was like, this bird is amazing and loud.

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And the bird starts to inch towards me like it wants to get on me.

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And I was like, that's against the rules. I was like, don't you know? There's a lot of birds in that room.

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I guarantee you've never been in a room with so many birds. I'm uneasy towards things that can, like, peck me.

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Oh, yeah. And those things are, I mean, their beaks and their little claws are no joke.

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It's scary. I love them to death. And I really want an African gray. Like, I need to get an African gray before I die.

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But you just don't want to ever get on their bad side. Exactly. But the macaws are what get me, though. I'm not so afraid of the

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African grays. The macaws are so ginormous. They're just big. Yeah. And so, anyway, Stella is saying, like,

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I want to go to the store. And we're like, oh, we don't have time. We're like, all right, fine. We'll go. So we go to the store. The whole way there. This is, like, forever.

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It's, like, a long drive from my house. And we go to the store. He goes. We get some peanuts, a bag of peanuts to feed the macaws.

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We walk into the macaw room. And it is this big room with just birds everywhere, just free roaming, right?

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Well, they know when you come in with a bag of peanuts. They're smart. They know that he has snacks for me. So they all immediately, like, perk up and, like, look at you.

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And Stella has it in his hand. This one macaw flies across the room, just. And just scared.

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He knew where it was at. He just goes running out of the room. Stella just runs out of the room. I'm like, no, no, no, no.

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Get back in here. Well, it's, like, strangely. Some things with wings, too, are weirdly off -putting because they look smaller.

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And then when they start to do their thing, you're like, oh, my gosh. You're so big. Stella was like, macaw you later.

13:52

Thank you for watching the show for today, guys. We're going to go ahead. That's a wrap. That's 10 dad jokes in the first 10 minutes.

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And we apologize. So, yeah, it is. It is terrifying.

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And have you ever seen the ones where when they get depressed or lonely or something or they've been abused and someone drops them off at the bird store and, like, now they own them?

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The ones that pluck themselves? So they pluck all their feathers out. And if they pluck it deep enough, they never grow back.

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So they'll be bald for life. They get at the root. Yeah, they'll be bald for life. So sometimes you go in there and you'll see one that's, like, seriously, 25 years old.

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He's plucked all of his feathers out. And his beak's all broken and stuff. And so it's, like, it's the most, like, decrepit.

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It's like, ah. And they're like, go ahead, give him a peanut. You're like, I'm not coming near that bird. I'm not touching it.

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He's traumatized. Yeah. I see his eyes. This damaged bird. It's just trying to get the peanut.

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Feed him. I'm not putting my hand near that thing. I don't think so. So, yeah. Anyway, Jesse got home safe and sound.

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Well, there was a happy ending to the story. That's good. Just a little unexpected, though. But those firefighters ruffled their feathers a little bit.

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I'm sorry, everybody. I'm sorry about what's happening on the show today. Please forgive us. Pun masters consider it a gift to the free world.

15:12

Yes. That they share these things. All right. Things bite like a good pun. So before, what we're going to do today is I'm actually going to play some audio from a very, very famous debate between Dr.

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Walter Martin, the author of The Kingdom of the Cults, the founder of the

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Christian Research Institute. And it just was a huge early Christian Research Institute was an amazing gift to the church.

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Such a blessing to have the Christian Research Institute. Dr. Walter Martin started that actually was over in the

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East Coast when he first began. And he moved to California because he wanted to be into the hotbed of where the cults and religions really were.

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So that was the purpose of moving there. I, unfortunately, cannot recommend the

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Christian Research Institute any longer. Hank Hanegraaff was the Bible Answer Man for a long time. He moved from California to,

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I think, like North Carolina or something like that. I'm not sure why that was done, but he did.

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And that's not the main problem. The main problem is Hank Hanegraaff has now converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

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And I know he claims that nothing has changed really with this theology fundamentally. But believe me, if you know

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Eastern Orthodoxy, you know they teach about the gospel. If you know what they believe, you know that there's no possible way for Hank Hanegraaff to say that he believes everything he believed before.

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It is just not true. And I honestly think dishonest to claim that. So I can't recommend

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Christian Research Institute any longer. I'm sad to say that. But with that said, Dr. Walter Martin was an amazing man of God.

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I'm in fact in ministry today and began ministry through, as a major part, the inspiration of Dr.

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Walter Martin's ministry. I was just telling the team here before we started, it's something

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I reflect on at times in terms of what God did in my life and how he was sort of just being gracious to me and helping to equip me.

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I wasn't raised in a Christian church, so I knew nothing about the faith. And when I first came to faith in Christ, I was reading the

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Bible and I was seeing Jesus as God. But I was even afraid to say it because I didn't know if I was right about that.

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I was seeing it. And I was telling Zach that I went to like my third Sunday going to church. I was talking to my pastor and I was like, yeah, cause you know,

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Jesus is God. And he, I was like looking at him like, well, what's he going to say to that? And he was like, right. Good.

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Yeah. Right. I was like, okay, good. I got that down. Oh God. That's what I thought they said. I was sure this said that.

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So anyway, I go to the Christian bookstore like every day after school, and I'm just sitting on the floor reading books. And I remember that the first Christian book

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I ever read was the King James only controversy by Dr. James White. I only found that book because there was a fight taking place in one of the aisles over translations of the

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Bible. And they were trying to get me into it with him. And the guy was like, you need to read the KJV. And so the owner of the bookstore came and gave me the

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King James only controversy so that I, cause he overheard it happening. See how God just took care of me. But like the first book

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I read was Dr. White's book. And it was all over a controversy I happened to walk into. What if I wasn't there in that moment, in that time to see that fight?

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And the guy didn't overhear it to give me that book. And that's why we believe in Providence. You see what I'm saying? So then it was another time

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I was in there when he just came up to me, same guy. And he gave me this long cassette tape box with all cassette tapes of Dr.

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Walter Martin defending the faith against Baha 'i, against the watchtower, against Mormonism.

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Did you say cassette tapes? Cassette tapes. Wow, you're getting up there. I know, I know, I know. And so all of my early training and doctrinal instruction came by way of listening to the

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Christian faith defended. Like there were very few tapes in there that were actually lectures and sermons from Martin.

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Just more like applications. It was all fights. It was like Walter Martin was at a church and Jehovah's Witnesses were coming up to the mic and trying to challenge him.

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And I was just listening to him going to the word of God and defending the faith in such a coherent and bold way.

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And that inspired me to do the kind of ministry that we're doing right now because that changed my life.

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Hearing the truth come against error was so powerful to me. It marked me for good.

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And I could never shake it loose. And not in a suggestive, weak way. Right? A strong, bold proclamation of the gospel against error.

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That's so rare. It is. It is. And to see just such conviction on top of such historical connection.

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Like that was what got me, too, is when I got to hear about the early Christians and the church fathers from Walter Martin.

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Like when somebody would bring up some random thing about God and the Trinity or whatever and try to diss the

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Trinity, Martin would not just go to the scriptures, but he'd go back to church history. And that was something that just inspired me.

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I was like, oh, this faith. This is something that God has been growing in history for 2 ,000 years.

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And now I'm a part of this. And it just created this love in me for the church itself in history and the church fathers.

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And primarily my love for the word of God just grew.

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And it was through the ministry of Dr. Walter Martin. Powerful things. One of the things that I found particularly helpful, a lot of his stuff's on YouTube for free, too.

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I mean, examining other worldviews. Is when he pretend he steps into the shoes of whatever worldview he's examining.

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And he says, this is how they would present using the scriptures to support what they're trying to teach you.

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And then this is what you have to be prepared for. I think that's particularly helpful as he assumes the perspective of the person of the opposite worldview that comes to you trying to put scripture forward as their foundation.

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But of course they have other traditions and things that run alongside that, but that's very helpful to hear it that way. And then he stops and he says, okay, now

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I want you to think about everything I just told you. Okay. And now we're going to go through and take it apart one thing at a time and compare it to scripture.

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Yeah. It was something about if you get the opportunity to watch interactions with Walter Martin on YouTube and not just listen to him,

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I do have to say that I love the like sort of like music of the time and the dress is like the way that he's dressed is just very like seventies.

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It just adds to the enjoyment. I don't know. I'm with you. He feels like this, this, this classic devout fiery fifties

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Baptist preacher, right? Like the dress and yeah, totally. Totally.

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And uh, yeah. So if you guys get a chance, we would encourage you to go check out some of Walter Martin's stuff. He was mentored by Donald Gray Barnhouse, who was the pastor or the minister at a 10th

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Presbyterian church. I believe it's called in, in Philadelphia and um, Donald Gray Barnhouse is obviously reformed.

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And so Martin was kind of a mixed bag. He was essentially reformed. And when he would really come down to nitty gritty and defend the gospel, you would hear all the, all the solid biblical reform stuff there.

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There were little areas where we would have some disagreements with Walter Martin areas, you know, of eschatology in one sense, but solid man of God, a man to be emulated, um, and uh, honored, uh, for his labor for the gospel.

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And if you don't have kingdom of the cults or kingdom of the alcohol, right. Make sure you get those. Yeah. I was going to say he really did. He did.

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He's responsible for some huge resources to specific groups of people. Like he saw, he saw groups of people and he thought like,

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I need to create something that can reach out, that can, that can be passed on and given to others so that it can be a resource for them.

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Yeah. Um, yeah. Such detail too. I mean just the research and the detail that goes into the examination.

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Yes. Before Dr. Martin wrote kingdom of the cults, there was no resource like the kingdom of the cults for the

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Christian church to be able to examine in the light of scripture, these different religions beliefs. And so you have to just understand just the compelling nature of the kingdom of the cults.

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When it arrived in the hands of the Christian church, it was this one -stop resource to understand this is what this religion teaches about God and Christ and salvation.

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And this is the, and it was solid stuff. And then I would say, this is the biblical response to that.

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And you could just, as a Christian have this resource where you can flip it open and go, I had some watch the Jehovah's witnesses show up at my door.

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What do they believe? And how do I talk to them? And you could spend a, you can spend two hours reading through that, which is the longest chapter,

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I believe in the kingdom of the cults. And then you could sort of be ready to talk to him and say, okay, now I understand. And this is, let me say, this was probably the thing that makes me what

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I am today in evangelism. Of course, the spirit of God, convicting me, challenging me, working on my heart, trying to love people.

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That, that of course is premier. Please don't think anything other than that. But it was Dr. Martin's love, graciousness, respectfulness, and boldness that I found to be this consistent.

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Oh, that's biblical, right? It wasn't just fiery sort of like smash them.

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And this is the truth. You're an error. It was measured. You could tell he was, he cared for them.

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He loved them. And then one of the things that got me was one of those cassettes in there was about witnessing to the cults.

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And it was like seven steps to witnessing to the cults or something like that. And there was a whole portion in there where he really challenges

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Christians. Like this has to be because you love them and you want them saved. It can't be just to win, win with fancy theological footwork.

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He says it has to be not, this is my newfound philosophical knowledge. And so I'm going to,

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I'm going to terrorize you with it. You have to love the person or don't do it. And that's what got me as a young man.

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Was I have to love these people. And I say, oftentimes, like when I was really young, I'm really glad that YouTube wasn't around and recordings weren't around because I'm sure there were many moments where I was not honoring

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Christ in terms of how I was engaging somebody. And it was Walter Martin's instruction that really helped me to see, no, I need to repent of that.

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I need to love these people. However, don't get me wrong. There were moments necessary, biblical moments of Walter Martin lays the smack.

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Oh yeah. Right. Like Jesus and Paul where it's necessary. He wouldn't. And that is, I think you have to balance those things as a

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Christian go. Okay. I'm talking to this guy in the street who's, who's loving and gracious. He's asking questions.

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We're just dialoguing. I can't try to take that guy's head off. I had to call him with love and grace to a bold proclamation of the gospel.

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But you also have the people who are cultists who are propagating falsehoods, who are warring against the truth.

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You do have to handle them in a different way in moments in terms of their denial of the truth and how they work against the truth.

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So you have to sort of balance those things. And Walter Martin really, I think showed me how to do that. That's one thing I think about from my own experience and ministering to people are, you know, doing that kind of, um, we're a confrontation every time

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I've ever failed to do it. Every time I've ever been afraid to do it. It's not because of a lack of information that I don't have about what they believe or what

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I believe. It's a lack of love for people. Yeah. That is what, where we fall short.

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And that's where we stumble. I think is we just don't have enough love. I don't have enough love to reach this person at the moment.

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And so let me ask you guys that. So when you think about like in the past times where you, you had an opportunity to share the gospel with somebody and you didn't.

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Yeah. Um, or, you know, you had a desire maybe to like reach a particular group or segment, but you've never actually sort of gotten to it.

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What do you think is the thing? It's a good thing for everyone who's listening right now. What, what is, what is holding you back? Like, what are the barriers in terms of boldly proclaiming your faith and the gospel to somebody?

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What are the barriers that, that stop us? What do you think? Anything you would say?

27:09

Um, I'm going to go with pride. Why? Um, I think that that'll, when you really break down a lot of the reasons, uh, that you could give to not speak with someone.

27:24

Uh, maybe you feel like you don't have time. Or you don't, obviously that's like exalting considering yourself before others.

27:34

Um, obviously there's, it's okay to keep a schedule, you know, that's not what I'm saying. But, um,

27:40

I think also when we say like, oh, I just, I feel like I don't know enough information to speak to that group of people.

27:46

That's not really, uh, out of love for them. It's not, I typically, it's not out of love for them.

27:53

Um, usually when, when you say, I just don't know enough to talk to that, that type of person, the person who's in that group, what you're really saying is

28:03

I don't want to look stupid. And I, I want to have all the answers so that I can like save face so that I can keep my reputation as an evangelist or an apologist or whatever.

28:16

Um, and that's really putting yourself before other people, which is just results in self exaltation, which means that you, you are just like shining the little idol that you've created of you.

28:31

Um, yeah, that's good. I would also say we have a tendency to make excuses, which

28:38

I've done that moment. Like there are other things going on in our lives, you know, even in that moment, someone comes to your door and like, well,

28:45

I have this thing to do. I can't talk to you right now. Right. But at that moment, what's more important than that person's eternal wellbeing?

28:51

Well, and also brought that person to you. Many times you can schedule an appointment with them. They're willing to come back.

28:58

So there's, that's what I mean. Like there is, it's, it's very fair to say, I don't have time to talk to you right now, but it's also very fair to say that like, if you don't make an appointment with that person, then perhaps you, perhaps you intentionally didn't make an appointment with that person because for what, whatever reason.

29:17

Yeah. Gotta love people. And I want to say, I just was reminded as I actually pulled up the live stream right now, as you guys are watching, um, we have very interesting audiences, a difference in audiences from our

29:29

Facebook channel to our, our YouTube channel. Let me just say very different. Comments are different also.

29:34

Yeah. Very, very different. YouTube is like, it's almost compared to Facebook. It's like a, it's like a post apocalyptic.

29:40

Yes. Wasteland. It is. So we love you and we're grateful for all of you. Truly. We are.

29:46

Can I just respond to something that has been said in the comments and we're happening live right now. So I did see some of your comments and I, I gotta say this cause

29:53

I did see it come up a few times. Um, I, I mean this with so much love and humility, but I, but I just gotta say it firmly.

30:02

It's so important for us as Christians to be stronger minded than the world.

30:10

It's so, it's so important for us as Christians to, to actually hold to higher intellectual and rigorous standards than the world.

30:18

We say that we follow the one who is the embodiment of truth. Jesus says in John 14, six,

30:23

I am the way and the truth. He's the embodiment of truth. God says, come let us reason together. God is the

30:28

God of logic. He's the God who is consistent. God cannot lie. God cannot engage in con in logical contradiction.

30:36

That's not what he's like. God walks in the truth. God is the truth. And so with that,

30:42

Christians can't be the kind of people that have such small minds and such a lack of discipline.

30:49

They're not, we're not willing to actually investigate and know, is this really the truth? Or do we as Christians today believe anything we read on the internet?

30:57

Like, oh, it's on the internet. So it's true. Now I know that we wouldn't say that, but is it true?

31:02

How many of us have gone onto a website and read something about essential oils and we've gone, this is the cure for all things in cancer.

31:09

Now, mind you, I'm very crunchy and I have essential oils in my bag, but truly like we just go to our website, we read something written by some random person we don't even know.

31:18

And we just go, that's true. This is essential oils. We'll cure your broken arm. It's like, well, wait a second. Like, hold on just a minute now.

31:25

Like there's so many things we need to do to firm up our commitments to like strong, rigorous, intellectual thoughts.

31:30

So with that man, oh man, did I see something this week that just blew me away.

31:37

Um, somebody said that, why is our set colored with red?

31:43

Don't we know that that's the devil's color? Oh my, that that's

31:49

Satan's color red. And so of course, then they said this, they said, look at the red on the set.

31:55

These guys are clearly demonic. And they said, and why is there a pagan symbol on the wall?

32:02

And what I say to that is, some of the Trinity, I love you and the Lord loves you, but please firm up your commitments to rigorous thought.

32:13

Jesus owns the colors. He created the universe in the world and there is nothing in scripture whatsoever.

32:22

Nothing, nothing, nothing that associates the color red with Satan. Now there are artistic renditions, artistic renditions of Satan as horns and red.

32:35

I mean, I think of the movie legend with Tom Cruise, right? Like that's the, the, the premier example of like the long horns and the fangs and you know, the wings and, and the,

32:44

Oh, that's the devil. He's red. You realize that that is not biblical because in the Bible talks about Lucifer, he's a fallen angel.

32:51

He was glorious and beautiful. If you saw him today, he'd appear as a bright light. He would be an angel of light.

32:57

He would not be red. So as a matter of fact, watch, what if we lit up the set with bright white lights?

33:06

Then somebody could say, ah, according to the word of God, the devil appears as an angel of light. Look at all those white lights on the set.

33:13

Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing. These guys are satanic. So we're just trying to go the opposite direction of Satan as a, as an angel of light.

33:18

We're just trying to throw up some red in here, you know, and sort of, and I would just, my question would be, how far does your commitment to that go?

33:25

Do you not own anything? That's red, right? Like what if your child had red hair when they came out?

33:30

What would you do? Daniel! You're the devil! Sandy's wearing a red shirt.

33:36

I knew you were a Satanist all along, Daniel. Well, and if you're a Christian, Luciferian? If you're a

33:42

Christian, what's the color of the blood that covers your sins? Red. That's what

33:48

I mean. Like there, or just even like you referenced creation, like God created so many things that are red.

33:55

We were just talking about parrots. Like those are some of the most colorful things. And a lot of them are very, very red.

34:00

It's like, so are, I just, you, it, where you're talking about is like critical thinking.

34:05

Yes. Not just, not just seeing something. And then what you feel about it is, is what it is.

34:12

And that's how you feel about it. Isn't even the reference you use to decide what's true about it and what's not.

34:18

You don't see something and think, I don't like that. That doesn't make me feel good. You're, we're really supposed to try and understand what things mean.

34:27

We're on, we're trying to understand the intention of how they were meant. And so it's just, it's totally an, it's my opinion is that it's lazy postmodernism.

34:37

It's an oversimplification and oversimplifying isn't loving. It's right.

34:43

It's just not, there's no seeking for truth in that at all. Right. Love the Lord, your God with your mind is the command.

34:50

Love God with your mind. Believing things that are lies and propagating lies is not loving

34:56

God. No matter how you feel about it. Right. Also, just real fast, briefly on this tricetra right here, not a pagan symbol.

35:05

I know that we find in a lot of conspiracy websites that it is, and it shows the need to really do better history.

35:12

That's the tricetra. It's actually an ancient symbol of the Trinity that was used by Christians to express the oneness of substance and essence of God and the distinction in person.

35:25

Sounds Trinitarian. That's right. This came about as a symbol because it was, it was a display of the unified substance of the

35:31

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and the distinction in persons. And it comes from a great controversy over homoousius or homoousius.

35:41

And so it's, it's an ancient controversy. And this is an ancient symbol used by Christians.

35:47

And if you say, no, that's pagan, I would say you need to really go to more trusted historical sources. And I would say, any of you guys have wedding rings on?

35:55

For those of you guys that are claiming, I got one. For those of you guys that are claiming, oh, that's a pagan symbol, I would ask you to take a look at your left hand and that ring finger, and I would ask you, is there something on there?

36:05

Why are you wearing that? Oh, because I'm married. Does it bother you that this was actually an ancient Roman pagan thing?

36:12

That they believe that somehow this was connected to the heart itself, and this put a chain on your heart for your partner?

36:19

Does that bother you? Or are you just concerned about the red and these pagan things somehow?

36:25

Does it bother you that when you blow candles out on a birthday cake, they used to use that? Necromancers used to do that to read your fortune in the smoke?

36:32

Anybody have their kids blow out their birthday candles? Anybody? Anybody? Is that why you make a wish? Well. Just curious.

36:39

Yeah, well, I mean, so the point is, is number one, this is not pagan by any stretch of the imagination.

36:46

But just do more rigorous standards of research and truth. And yeah, it's important for me that Christians don't look like fools to the world.

36:55

We're supposed to have the highest standards of anybody in the world, and historically have had that.

37:01

And in this generation, we don't live like that often. So that's my loving encouragement to those who are watching the

37:09

YouTube channel. Blessed by all of you watching. Let's do this. Oh, I just got to say one last thing. It's kind of cool.

37:15

So I went to a hip hop concert this Saturday. Are you serious? Yeah, I did.

37:20

Okay. I went to a hip hop concert. I didn't know you were into hip hop. Got over money? Yeah, I got over money. Oh, okay, cool. So I went because,

37:27

I should have made it more clear. All right. Christian hip hop. So I went because Ivy Connerly, he's like family to us.

37:34

He contacted me. He said, Hey, man, Seven, do you know who Seven is? I said, yeah, I know. I've heard of him. He goes, he's, you know, really encouraged by your ministry.

37:42

He uses a lot of your stuff. He's in town. He wants to meet you. So I said, yeah, give him my number. And so I got some interesting texts from him on that Saturday morning from Seven that I was amused by and I was encouraged by.

37:55

I was excited. I was like, yeah, I'm going to go. So my son and I, he's nine, we go to the concert and I just want to say

38:00

I was so encouraged being at the concert because I ran into so many people that were affected by Apologia's ministry, transformed in many ways theologically or out now doing ministry because of Apologia.

38:11

But I got to meet Seven. He's an amazing, amazing man. Did I say amazing, amazing? He's amazing, amazing.

38:17

He's amazing, amazing. He's an amazing man. Well, I just want to say, so then there's a guy that goes up before.

38:22

His name is Dayton. Do you know Dayton? Uh -uh. Well, he sings, this is his song. So his song is one of his songs,

38:52

Hallelujah All Day. So anyway, I'm in the audience and watching Seven do his thing and then this guy tugs at my arm and it's him and he's like, oh my goodness.

39:02

He's like, you don't understand, man. Your ministry has blessed me and changed my life and then he met my son and everything.

39:07

But I just thought it was really cool and this is why I bring it up because the Christian hip hop, like these three -minute songs, four -minute songs, they have sometimes more rich theology than many of these modern evangelical pastors' 40 -minute sermons or 30 -minute sermons.

39:24

In three minutes, you'll get some strong theological stuff. Lyrical theology. And I was really encouraged to know that Apologia is blessing a lot of these hip hop artists and they're using a lot of, you know, the theology and the stuff that they're getting in their music and it's being used now to change a lot of people's lives.

39:40

We had Ivy on. He was talking about his album, one of his songs. He uses essentially precept, right?

39:45

The apologetic. He says, if we're all just matter in motion, what's the big deal? Essentially is what he says. So just another example of getting that theology into lyrical form.

39:54

That's right. That's right. So I was encouraged by that. I thought it was great and I just want to give this to you guys.

40:00

So famous, we were talking about famous scenes. Yes. Famous scenes of movies that like you just...

40:06

One thing, we're total nerds that Zach and I are doing often to each other is we're quoting the entire movie of Best of the

40:13

Best. Yeah. Which if you haven't seen, you got to see it. Be sure to do it. Yeah. Best of the

40:19

Best, it's an old movie, 80s. The year I was born. It was 89? Yeah. I watched that movie until the tape broke and then

40:26

I bought it again. So can I make an admission? There were three movies I watched as a child growing up over and over and over.

40:33

Best of the Best, Little Mermaid, and Hoosiers, which is a basketball movie with Gene Hackman.

40:42

I wasn't expecting to hear Little Mermaid. Yeah. Those were the three when I was a kid just over and over.

40:47

The tapes, the VHSs, you rewind the tape, watch it again. Year three. So mine was Best of the

40:52

Best as you can tell. Yeah. Bloodsport. Oh, that was another one. Cyborg with Jean -Claude

41:01

Van Damme. Oh, okay. Bloodsport, Cyborg, and yeah. And there was

41:06

Kickboxer and all the rest. Kickboxer was another one. So those were probably the most watched. Oh, I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe End of the

41:12

Dragon. End of the Dragon was probably from four years old. One of the greatest martial arts movies ever. Four years old. I remember the first day

41:18

I saw End of the Dragon. I remember the place I was sitting in my living room. I remember watching it. I remember seeing

41:23

Bruce Lee in the little spandex undies doing the little kick up. I remember as a kid that's why

41:28

I started martial arts. Yeah. It was that scene I was like, what is this? I have to do that.

41:34

I have to do this. That's how I got into martial arts was Bruce Lee, End of the Dragon in his tight little spandex underwear doing a little kick up and breaking a guy down.

41:43

Okay, Joy, top three movies. Okay, so my brain is doing that thing where it just like forgets all the information you need to answer a question.

41:52

But I do have one. Okay. All right. Clueless. Oh, wow. Dang. So I'm not.

41:59

Total chick flick. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Don't like chick flicks. Don't apologize. I don't like chick flicks anymore. I didn't think

42:04

I did, but I so I didn't. I wouldn't have broken the VHS on this tape because what

42:10

I would do is I'd go over to my dad's house every other weekend and he sometimes had to work. He had to go into the office on Saturdays and so I would go in with him and like bug him and watch movies and mess up all the stuff and all that.

42:24

So he would rent me every other weekend for years a decade.

42:30

He would rent me some movies so that if I got bored I could watch him like in the back of the office and he

42:36

I can't even tell you how many times he rented me Clueless. Why we didn't buy it? No idea, but he rented it for me.

42:44

I spent $5 ,000 on this movie. Could have just bought it. He basically did. He basically did. That's all I'm saying is that like I.

42:51

Did you ever recommend to him? Hey, why don't we buy it? I never did. I don't know why I didn't. Also, I'm sure this is one movie,

42:56

Joy. Ace Ventura, Pet Detective. Oh, yeah. It's also very high on the list. So I've also, I mean,

43:01

I've seen like Ghostbusters more times than I can. Which one? Which one's your favorite? I mean, it has to be the original, right?

43:08

Yeah, of course. OK, good. What am I going to say? The most recent one with? Oh, no, the ladies. Oh, no, that's not even sure.

43:15

That's not even part of the that's not part of the series. Shame. And they're remaking the remake in the oceans movies with all the curse on all your houses.

43:22

Curse on all your houses. But I mean, but I mean, obviously this one,

43:28

Princess that movie depressed. It is. I couldn't get through it. It was so sad.

43:34

Yeah. The Secret of Nim. OK. All right. Like, you know, yeah, all those.

43:39

There was actually a Ninja Turtles that I would watch like was the one with Jeff in it. But I don't know.

43:45

I have no memory. Which one it was because I was so young. The movie movies. Yeah. So my favorite Ninja Turtle movie was the one with Ernie Reyes, Jr.

43:52

Part two was Ninja Turtles Part two with what was his name? What do they call him in that Cato?

43:58

Can you know what was his name in it? Do you know I'm talking about? He was the pizza boy that in the beginning comes to deliver the pizza and the guys are the foot soldiers are robbing the store and then he like fights him and throws the pizza and everything.

44:08

Ernie Reyes, Jr. was like my hero point of reference was my hero growing up. You don't understand. I'm like a little boy like just like all over Ernie Reyes, Jr.

44:17

And then and yeah, I mean, I was just like I wanted to be Ernie Reyes, Jr. because of that movie. And then I got to I got to do something with Ernie Reyes, Jr.

44:25

for MTV. So it was really funny. Like, you know, he's he knows me. And so we're chatting and talking the whole time.

44:30

You don't understand. It was like everything in me not to be just freaking out. Like, it's just, you know, just talking.

44:36

Yeah, you know, just chilling. I'm just like, cool. This is so awesome. This is so awesome.

44:42

You don't understand. Like, I watched you until the tape broke. Do you understand? I watched you until the tape broke.

44:47

You have any idea what that means? And then I bought it again and then again and again. So I know I had more, but I just can't think of them right now.

44:55

Okay. But clueless. Clueless. I know the film. Yes. Not as well as I do.

45:01

Now I know what to get you for Christmas. Now I know what to get you for Christmas. VHS copy of Clueless. All right.

45:06

So here we go, y 'all. Y 'all been watching for a long time. If you're new to Apologia Radio, this is how we do it. Let me just tell you. So for those of you guys that are watching, like, can you guys just talk about the theology now?

45:14

If you haven't noticed, we have been. This is just Christian fellowship for us.

45:19

That's what I think Apologia Radio really is, is it's like, if you got to sit down on a table with us at Apologia, this is just us eating a meal and chatting together.

45:29

without the food right now. That's right. We talk about life. We talk about each other. We love each other and then we go, oh yeah, and then this thing.

45:37

What do you guys think? And we start talking about that and then we chop it up and then we go back to talking about Clueless and then we go and we talk about theology.

45:44

Which isn't as common as a theology. That's right. So you guys get to enter into our church life and we turn the microphones on and that's what you're getting with Apologia Radio.

45:54

So. On that note. On that note. Speaking of Clueless. What? What are we about to do?

46:02

That's right. So we are going to play. Okay, time -wise here. I want to make this enjoyable.

46:08

So I'm going to do this. I'm going to start with the cross -examination section. That's Walter Martin versus Van Hale.

46:15

Van Hale was a very famous Mormon apologist, a defender of Mormonism early on.

46:22

This debate was done. I meant Clueless in the nicest way possible. Yeah, yeah. I was really just trying to not miss that segue.

46:28

Oh, I got it. No, you have to make segues. It was there. It was there. By the way, when we do this show, we're always looking for them.

46:33

We're like, where's the next segue to get us back to where we're supposed to be? So Van Hale, famous Mormon apologist, a defender of Mormonism.

46:41

This was like, you don't understand, this was like at the time, this was like the Battle of the Titans. Right? Yeah, that's a big deal.

46:46

Walter Martin, like historic orthodoxy, Christianity versus Van Hale, Mormon apologist.

46:52

They're finally together and they're facing one another and there's some controversial things that happens near the end of us where they get real personal with each other.

46:59

Like, you know, about like, you didn't call me and you lied about me. Like, it gets pretty intense. But this is the cross -examination section.

47:07

Again, you guys can all hear this for freezies. We're going to put it up at ApologiaStudios .com, but you can also get it right now and it's full content on YouTube is

47:17

Mormonism Christian, Walter Martin versus Van Hale. This is the Cross -X. One question per person.

47:23

Thank you. Okay, question over here for Mr. Hale. I'll try to word this to be one question and I'd like to thank both of you for coming to shed some light on the darkness of Mormonism.

47:32

If the LDS Church believes the Book of Mormon to be the word of God according to their eighth article of faith and it contains the fullness of the everlasting gospel, when and why do the

47:42

Mormon people not believe in their own Book of Mormon, verses such as 2 Nephi 31 -21,

47:47

Mosiah chapter 15, Alma 11 -35, 3 Nephi 11 -27, and in fact, 3

47:53

Nephi 11 -29? And why does the Book of Mormon not teach any of your unusual doctrines such as man becoming a god?

48:02

Okay, there is... So I'm going to just quickly answer that particular... I know what the brother was trying to get at as he was talking to Van Hale there.

48:11

There was a change over time in the theology of Joseph Smith.

48:18

He claimed near the end of his life that he had always and in all congregations when he had spoken in the subject of the deity it was on the plurality of gods.

48:26

That's because he began to introduce polytheism over time. When you look at the

48:31

Book of Mormon in its first publication you can see monotheism. Now, Joseph Smith did not believe in the

48:39

Trinity. He didn't believe in the Trinity. He did not understand the Trinity. He was essentially a modalist.

48:45

And I'm sorry to turn that down for you guys. I just got a word from our crew. And so you see early on in Mormonism very sort of convoluted just contradictory statements about God about the

48:58

Trinity. Joseph Smith didn't understand it. And so as time moves on you begin to see from 1830 to 1844

49:04

Joseph Smith begins to transform into this polytheistic religion.

49:10

And I agree with what Dr. White said. It's the most polytheistic religion in the world. If you think about it

49:15

Hinduism has That's saying something. It is. Hinduism has somewhere over 300 million gods they claim, right? But in Mormonism you've got way more than 300 million gods.

49:24

And so it's a very polytheistic religion. You have an infinite regression. That's right. It goes back and back and back and back and back and then forward, forward, forward.

49:32

You have just gods and more gods and more gods. And so that's what he's getting at is

49:37

Mormonism went through this transformation. The Book of Mormon does not teach polytheism. However, Pearl of Great Price does.

49:45

The King Follett discourse does. And Mormon prophets and apostles did. And so that's what he's getting at with that question.

49:52

So, you understand the background? If you don't, know the context. A very prevalent misconception that is being circulated by those who are opposed to the

50:03

LDS faith and that misconception is that the Book of Mormon does not teach Mormonism.

50:09

Now that particular idea is obviously obviously demonstrates that someone taking that particular position has not paid a lot of attention to the

50:19

Book of Mormon. But one of the most prevalent ideas or one idea that appears throughout the

50:25

Book of Mormon is the idea of continuing revelation. You might look in D5 chapter 28. That would perhaps help you.

50:32

In which is presented the idea that God reveals things line upon line, precept upon precept.

50:38

There has never been any claim within the LDS faith. There was no claim by Joseph Smith that everything that God has for man in this generation is to be found in the

50:51

Book of Mormon. That was not his position ever. His position was one strongly of continuing revelation.

50:58

Insofar as reference, your question could go on for a long time, but insofar as your question about specific passages in the

51:07

Book of Mormon, I am not aware of any passage in the Book of Mormon where in the

51:12

Mormon's pastor present have ever said we don't believe in this passage. The fact is the Book of Mormon is used throughout our lesson manuals, it is used throughout everything that we cite as a basic source of our religion and it presents,

51:27

I made a list one time of about 30 unique concepts of Mormonism that are found in the

51:33

Book of Mormon throughout. The ideas of apostasy and restoration, the ideas pertaining to the place of America and the restorations,

51:46

I could give you a list of many unique ideas, but to say that all unique ideas or all teachings of Mormonism are to be found in the

51:54

Book of Mormon would be to take a position just exactly opposite of the basic position of Mormonism found in Article of Faith 9.

52:01

Read on in the Articles of Faith. Thank you. Question for Dr. Martin. I'd like to comment on those passages you made reference to all affirm that there is one

52:11

God. Mr. Hale just got through telling us that the Mormon can't understand how I can possibly be confused about the fact that Mormonism teaches there is one

52:19

God. Well, does he not read his own prophet? He does not read

52:24

Joseph. Joseph says, I am going to tell you how God came to be

52:31

God. Simple logic will tell you if you have to come to be God, you're not eternal.

52:38

Eternal means from everlasting to everlasting. So how can you sit here and tell us with a straight face that Jesus Christ is eternal

52:46

God when Joseph Smith says God came to be God. Explain that logical contradiction. He had a sharp edge, man.

53:00

Yeah, he did. So hang on, we're going to play more of this right now. I just got word Dr. White just messaged me while we're live here on the show.

53:08

He messaged me an article from LDSliving .com. It says,

53:14

President Nelson issues statement regarding name of the church, dropping terms LDS and Mormon in most uses.

53:22

So this is a pretty significant little thing right now live on the show getting word about this.

53:28

What date is today? Today is the 16th. Just dropped today by Mormon newsroom.

53:34

President Nelson is president of the Mormon church, issues this statement and this is

53:40

President Russell M. Nelson of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has made the following statement regarding the name of the church.

53:46

Quote, the Lord has impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He has revealed for His church, even the

53:52

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We have work before us to bring ourselves in harmony with His will. In recent weeks, various church leaders and departments have initiated the necessary steps to do so.

54:02

Additional information about this important matter will be made available in the coming months. It says, the updated newsroom style guide provides direction on how to properly refer to the

54:10

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The guidelines read, the official name of the church is the

54:16

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The full name was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith in 1838.

54:22

In the first reference, the full name of the church is Preferred, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. When a shortened reference is needed, the terms the church or the

54:31

Church of Jesus Christ are encouraged. The Restored Church of Jesus Christ is also accurate and encouraged.

54:38

While the term Mormon Church has long been publicly applied to the church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title and the church discourages its use.

54:47

Thus, please avoid using the abbreviation LDS or the nickname Mormon as substitutes for the name of the church as in Mormon Church, LDS Church, or the

54:56

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. When referring to the church members, the terms members of the

55:01

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Latter Day Saints are preferred. We ask that the term

55:06

Mormons not be used. It's a powerful thing because there is a

55:13

PR nightmare now for the Mormon Church in terms of the history of the

55:18

Mormon Church, all the Mormon documentaries that have done to expose the origins of Mormon. So when people see that they're associating it with all of the things that have come to light.

55:27

You know when people talk about Mormonism they talk about that strange Mormon underwear, South Park episodes on Mormonism.

55:34

Polygamy probably. Yeah, so believe me we can call this a revelation from God, but really in reality what we're talking about is

55:42

PR. Damage control. Damage control, public relations, LDS, Mormon, let's not use those anymore.

55:48

Let's use terms that would be more comfortable for Christians. Church of Jesus Christ, restored Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints.

55:55

Okay, so we're getting away from the terminology of Mormon, LDS because I believe the baggage that's associated with those.

56:01

It's just, I think it's a PR move. Wow, very intriguing. It's a PR move. So okay, here we go.

56:07

Is Mormonism a Christian? Yeah, I would like to respond to that, Dr. Martin.

56:13

The position that Joseph Smith took, and I don't know if you're familiar with it or not, maybe you've read Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse, maybe you haven't, but in his discourse, surely you're jesting.

56:26

Well, then let me ask you a question. You read The Maze of Mormonism. You know I quoted it there twice.

56:31

But quoting something is different from reading it. Okay? Isn't it? Okay, then let me ask you the question.

56:37

Let me ask you this question, since you've read it. What does Joseph Smith say in the

56:45

King Follett Discourse, which I have in front of me? We can turn to it and read it. What does he say in there about the eternal nature of God in reference to man and God?

56:58

Does Joseph Smith say God is not eternal in the Well, I just in the simplest possible terms showed you logically how, if God had been to become

57:08

God, then he could not be eternal. I mean, that's common sense. You don't need to interpret

57:14

Joseph. That's common sense. Now, Joseph says, I'm going to tell you how God came to be God.

57:19

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will take away the veil so that you may see.

57:27

And then he tells you, you've got to become God the way God became God. Now, simple logic will tell you if you have to become something, you were not the nature of that something before.

57:40

Therefore, you are not telling the truth when you say you believe in Jesus Christ as the eternal God because you don't believe in an eternal

57:47

God. Well, that's fine to present. We'll get a response and then we'll turn it back to some audience questions.

57:55

That's fine to present your logic as a presentation of Joseph Smith's statement.

58:01

OK. Let me go to it here. You know, I am looking at Teachings of the

58:07

Prophet Joseph Smith, page 352, in which Joseph Smith presents that not only is

58:14

God eternal, but also that man is eternal. Are you familiar with that idea within the

58:19

King Father discourse? The only problem is your logical structure collapses because if man is eternal and God is eternal, then

58:29

God and man are eternal, and if God and man are eternal, there is no man. You only have

58:34

God. OK. The one other thing is, I'm not talking about your logic. I teach logic.

58:40

I'm not giving you my logic. I'll get you a textbook and let you read it, chapter and verse. I'm going to intervene.

58:48

So, there's a couple moments like that with Dr. Martin and Van Hale during this debate.

58:55

Now, if you're new to all this, and you're wondering what all this has to do with, it has to do with the fact that in the King Follett discourse, it was a funeral for a man named

59:04

Elder King Follett. It's a very interesting name, by the way. King Follett. It's a cool name. But it was one of the discourses of Joseph Smith where he was very, very explicit and detailed at this discourse, funeral discourse, about God, the nature of God, how

59:22

God came to be God, and you have to become a God yourself one day. That's where you want to work towards.

59:28

And so, it's explicit. It's very detailed. And Joseph Smith claims by divine revelation that he is revealing something about God.

59:37

This is not from his own opinion. This is from the spirit of God. That's the claim. And so, what Joseph Smith teaches there in the

59:43

King Follett discourse is his teaching is against the historic biblical view of God and the

59:48

Christian church's view about God. He knows that he's coming against it because he says, I'm going to tell you how God came to be

59:54

God. He says, we have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. He says, I will refute that idea.

01:00:01

Now, who's saying that? Who's saying that God has been God for all eternity? Christians in the Bible. teaching.

01:00:07

That's right. He says, I'm going to refute that idea and take away and do away the veil so that you may see.

01:00:12

He says, you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you. So, that's what is critical here.

01:00:20

When Mormons were taught the

01:00:28

Christian language in 1830 and then he progressed after that into the kind of polytheistic religion that it became.

01:00:34

You can see that transition taking place. Now, Joseph Smith claimed later in life that he had always and in all congregations when he had preached on the subject of the deity, it was on the plurality of gods.

01:00:45

However, it's difficult to show that because you see the opposite early on. So, you see this change taking place and so you'll have statements about monotheism and then you have statements that contradict that with polytheism.

01:00:57

You have statements that say that God the Father was once a man who became a god one day and then you have statements talking about the

01:01:03

Father as an eternal God. So, it's this convoluted, irreconcilable, man -made system where you've got various statements going back and forth but nothing consistent and so that's what you see and that's what's become so difficult to manage in terms of witnessing to a

01:01:18

Mormon is you need to be able to demonstrate to them okay, this is the teaching of your prophets, this is what they say is divine revelation, this is the doctrine of your church and they go yes, okay, so not only does that contradict the

01:01:27

Bible but guess what? It also contradicts early Mormon teaching and you have all kinds of complicated issues too that go beyond even the theological.

01:01:37

You have the issue of Joseph Smith's first vision. It wasn't even a part of the beginning of Mormonism. It wasn't a part of it.

01:01:43

The Joseph Smith's first vision? I mean, you're hard pressed to find anything there and then when it starts appearing, this first vision account starts appearing, you start seeing transformations even in the first vision account.

01:01:56

They're not the same. You have like five different accounts of the first vision. You've got one where like it's just angels present, you've got another where it's a different mission for Joseph, a different purpose for the vision and then we now have the one that's propagated now with Mormons at your door when they hand you their first vision pamphlet or they talk you through it.

01:02:13

That's the official version of the first vision but you see various first visions between the 1830 and 1840.

01:02:22

It's very complex. Well, that's what continuing revelation will get you. Yes, yes it will.

01:02:28

So I'll just give you another piece here. That was just a flavor of some of the,

01:02:34

I call it cross examination, it was actually a question period but they actually do sort of talk to each other. I'm just going to give you sort of a little bit of this little moment of Dr.

01:02:42

Martin's opening statement and it'll kind of give you an idea of like how I fell in love early on with just like the

01:02:49

Bible and like God's Word being proclaimed. So I'm just going to play some of this for you just so you get a flavor of it.

01:02:54

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that's a strange

01:03:00

God anyhow. Three in one? One in three? It's a curious organization.

01:03:06

All are to be crammed into one God according to sectarianism. No. According to historic

01:03:13

Christianity the three persons are the one God. Smith, it would make the biggest

01:03:18

God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God. He would be a giant or a monster.

01:03:25

Close quote. So the blasphemy of the Trinity is the beginning of Mormonism.

01:03:30

The denial of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as three persons in one God. A second very important point.

01:03:39

Jesus Christ is affirmed to be God in human flesh. That is the cornerstone of historic

01:03:45

Orthodox theology. The Apostle's Creed affirms him as God.

01:03:51

The Athanasian Creed as God. The Nicene Creed as God. In fact, there are two thousand pages entitled

01:03:57

The Creeds of Christendom, all of which quote the New Testament copiously and by the great church historian

01:04:03

Philip Schaff, which teach that Jesus Christ is considered to be the eternal

01:04:08

God. Of course, there have been heretics. There have been every kind of heretic from the first century, from the

01:04:15

Galatian heretics and the Judaizers and the Gnostics, all of whom perverted

01:04:20

New Testament theology. But the church dealt with them systematically down through the ages, at councils and in publishing creeds to refute them, creeds based upon the scriptures.

01:04:33

Now, it is biblical theology that Jesus Christ is God. Let us not doubt that for one moment.

01:04:38

In Mormon theology, Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ is one

01:04:44

God among many gods. He is a God, but he is not the almighty

01:04:49

God. That is his father, Elohim. Elohim had a father, and he had a father, and he had a father, and he had a father.

01:04:58

Infinite regression of the gods. In Mormonism, there is no eternal God. In Christianity, from everlasting to everlasting, from eternity into eternity, thou art

01:05:14

God. Very clear. Christ affirmed this, quoting Exodus chapter 3.

01:05:20

Powerful, powerful stuff. Sounds a lot like John 1 also. Yes. Anarchy. Yes. Right, as far back as you want to go.

01:05:26

So, some of the early attacks, you may have heard some of these, some of the early attacks on Walter Martin from Mormons is they didn't like his colorful language and how he expressed the

01:05:34

Mormon teaching, but what's interesting is that you couldn't... about that. Yeah, yeah, but you couldn't, you could not contradict

01:05:42

Dr. Martin with Mormon teaching. In other words, you can say, I don't like the colorful language he uses, but Walter Martin was expressing orthodox, classical

01:05:52

Mormon teaching, and you may not like it told to you like that.

01:05:57

Right. That God was once a man who became a God one day who progressed and who changed, who has sex with multiple wives.

01:06:05

I mean, I'm sure there's actually a lot of wives who produce all the spirit children of this earth. Has sex in the preexistence with his multiple polygamist wives.

01:06:12

He produces us in the preexistence on top of Satan and Jesus who are spirit offspring and brothers. Jesus comes to the world and progresses early

01:06:19

Mormon prophets and apostles taught that Jesus was probably a polygamist. You know, when you start telling the story that you can become a

01:06:25

God or your own planet one day and be worshipped and you may be a polygamist as well over spirit children.

01:06:31

You know, you can be in councils of gods possibly in the future and in a meeting with other gods. When you start putting that together the

01:06:37

Mormon might say well I don't like how you're saying that but the truth is you can't contradict it. Right. You can't deny it because the

01:06:44

Mormon church teaches these things about God. I should say gods. That's a critical thinking error.

01:06:50

Yeah. You can't, it's not an argument. So, it's not a response to an argument for you to say well

01:06:56

I don't like the way you say that. Right. That doesn't address the content. The actual content.

01:07:02

Right. So, it doesn't work as an argument. It's not, it's more it's like a statement made in and of itself like oh

01:07:11

I just don't like the way you talk but it's not a contribution to the conversation. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There can be no denying that Mormonism teaches that Jesus is the offspring of a resurrected

01:07:24

God man who became a God one day who had never been before. He had many gods before him. Grandfather gods and everything else.

01:07:30

That Jesus is Lucifer's brother. Spirit children of Heavenly Father. That you know

01:07:36

Jesus progressed as well himself. He was not always God. Always in existence as God.

01:07:42

And they'll of course try to cover it by saying no no no all you know matter is eternal and all these different things.

01:07:48

But that doesn't make Jesus eternal and his person. He was created by Heavenly Father as a spirit child.

01:07:54

He progressed like the God of this earth did. When you start thinking about the goddess mothers and the

01:07:59

Heavenly Mothers we have. A lot of Mormons have told me in the past we don't believe that. There's no denying it. It's official teaching.

01:08:05

But now you actually see Mormons like the Three Mormons on YouTube. Their channel Three Mormons. They talk about Heavenly Mother. They talk about their

01:08:12

Heavenly Mother and what that must be like. I didn't see that one. It really should be titled Heavenly Mothers. Right.

01:08:18

But they talk about what's our Heavenly Mother like. Well, we really don't know. And they're kind of speculating. But it's openly admitted.

01:08:24

So when people say, well, I don't like how you're expressing what we believe and how you're identifying what you believe, there really is no way to deny those essential things.

01:08:33

That is the core teaching about gods in Mormonism. Becoming gods one day.

01:08:39

And you may not like it when it's defined and explained publicly. And I would say this.

01:08:45

I think that a lot of times Mormons don't like those definitions because they know deep down as image bearers of God how truly wrong and blasphemous and embarrassing that ought to be for any image bearer of God to say that.

01:08:57

You know, for example, think of all the praiseworthy things said about... I can't find my Bible. I can't find my

01:09:02

Bible. Oh, no. I got a little paper Bible right now. So I'm just holding this up going... We gotta help you look for that, man.

01:09:09

Where's my Bible? Paperback. Yeah, paperback. I love the cover of your Bible. It's so bendy and just sits and rests in your hands so well.

01:09:17

Calf skin. It's like butter. So when you think about all the glorious things said about God in worship in this book, right, all the amazing things said in praise and worship to God in this book, you know, you are worthy of praise.

01:09:34

You are holy, holy, holy. It's a really compelling question to ask the Mormon. It's an important one.

01:09:40

Is there going to be a time in the future where people will say to you,

01:09:48

Oh, goddess joy, you are worthy to be praised. Lord Zach, holy, holy, holy are you.

01:09:58

Think about it. Doesn't it sound crazy? It's blasphemous. But the truth is the teaching of Mormonism is that that will be said about the gods and goddesses of their own planets one day because they will evolve into becoming a god, progress into becoming a god like the god of this earth did to receive worship from their spirit children in the next world in the celestial kingdom.

01:10:22

That is the goal of Mormonism to become gods and goddesses of your own planet to progress and go through exaltation like the god and goddesses of this planet did.

01:10:33

That's the aim of Mormonism. Yes, they say there's this version of Jesus who died. His atonement began in the garden.

01:10:40

It was finished on the cross. You know, you essentially attain salvation through the grace and faith, but also through your obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

01:10:49

But you progress through obedience to become a goddess and god of this planet in the future so that you'll receive worship and glory like the god of this world does.

01:11:01

Man, you just take a point like that every time like an apostle or an angel like someone tries to extend worship to them.

01:11:09

They steer away from this as they go. No, no, no, no. Worship God alone. He's the only one that's worthy of your worship.

01:11:15

Yeah, so they immediately steer the people away to say no, there's only one God. Well, and I just have to say that I a part of our sanctification and obedience to God is that we are.

01:11:28

I mean, at least I feel like I'm constantly learning this that like I can't I can't be

01:11:34

God. I can't be him like I'm not even in my design. I'm not I feel like I fall short on a on a cellular level and being

01:11:45

God not of the same species, right? And then I am so substance like on the on the other side of that sanctification is where you you really you really realize that you don't want to be like not only do can

01:12:01

I not do it but thank God I can't do it because he I won't do it what like please don't come to me and ask me to be your

01:12:11

God because I will just fail you. Yeah, I will fail you. So the idea of someone praising me like that now, don't get me wrong.

01:12:21

I'm a sinner. So there's been plenty of times where like I there's events leading up to the realization

01:12:26

I just described. But no, just no. Thank you.

01:12:32

Right. No, thanks. It needs to be seen as blasphemous at its core.

01:12:38

And yeah, we need to express the true nature of the teaching of Mormonism because one of the dangers of the

01:12:43

Mormon Church example here in just the president of the church trying to change the name I believe is a PR move is that Mormonism tries desperately.

01:12:51

It has since the beginning to try to look like a Christian church to the restored gospel.

01:12:58

Right. They try to look like that. Now there's there's something to be said about that early on. They didn't want to look like the

01:13:03

Christian church in another sense because they wanted to say that we're the church of God and you're the church of the devil and you guys are all

01:13:09

Gentiles like that's how they expressed it but they did want to look like we're the restored gospel. Nowadays Mormons try to look very

01:13:16

Christian. I think the step here again is a PR move to look as Christian as possible and to lose some of that baggage with LDS and Mormon.

01:13:24

But it's important to do the hard the hard moves where you have to say let's get past all the language that sounds so Christian.

01:13:34

Jesus, Heavenly Father, Heaven, Kingdom of God and Church. Let's get past all that and let's ask the deep questions.

01:13:41

When you say Heavenly Father do you mean what Jesus meant when he said it or do you mean what

01:13:46

Joseph meant when he said it? Like is it the resurrected God man who became a

01:13:52

God? He was a man who became a God one day through exaltation who had gods before him and you can become one.

01:13:58

What do you mean? Walter Martin said and as he opens up Kingdom of the Cult it's a powerful thing. He says very clearly you have to learn to scale the language barrier.

01:14:09

Get past the surface level language of co -opted Christian language and get underneath all that and say when you say

01:14:15

Jesus what do you mean? Like Satan's brother Jesus? Yeah. Or the eternal

01:14:20

God Jesus from John chapter 1 verses 1 through 3? Like which Jesus are we talking about? The one who created

01:14:25

Jesus or the one that's the spiritual offspring of Elohim and one of his goddess wives?

01:14:31

What do you mean by that? That's the most important thing to do in terms of really engaging the conversation is get down to definitions.

01:14:38

What are we talking about? Christians oftentimes get frustrated when they first start talking to Mormons and they're like I talked to missionaries for two hours and they sounded just like us.

01:14:46

Yeah. It's like well they're trained to sound just like you. Yeah. That's very much on purpose. Hmm. Good show today?

01:14:53

Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. Excellent. So it's just a little flavor today guys. Again go check it out. We are going to put it up at ApologiaStudios .com.

01:14:59

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01:15:43

Lord and give a proclamation of the good news. Zach attack. Later y 'all. Joy the girl.

01:15:50

See ya. Thank you to our film crew and to Carmen who's in the back on the ones and twos. Pray for Carmen and thank you guys for listening.

01:16:00

Jesus gave his life for me and he broke. Bustin' the slammer and chains but against the odds