Is Full Peterism Heresy or not?

Are you saying that someone a believer can go sleep with a prostitute and it wouldn't be right or wrong because he's not under the law. Anymore is so if he if he sleeps with a prostitute, but has faith in doing it, then it's okay.

Yeah, it's okay. Okay. I'm gonna ask this again because I want to make sure that I heard you correctly. Yeah, it's okay. It would be as long as you have faith on you can do that. He can wait. Wow, okay, um, you're saying that as long as we have faith.

Whatever we do in faith is not sin. Yes. We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions that you have about God and the Bible. We can answer any question you have about God in the Bible if You doubt that you just come on in ask any question and just remember if I say, I don't know.

That's a perfectly good answer. Let me bring my co-hosted drew in here. How are you?

Doing well doing. Well, you know, my my internet hasn't been acting up the whole time. Pre-show and now it started glitching and so I'm like, oh, please hold on at least for this hour.

Of course, of course and I'm trying to look for. Last week we mentioned about we did the end of the show. We talked about the guy Anthony who was on here when we did the he wanted to make a case for same-sex marriage.

And find his email now. I should have had that up before him. But but a follow-up. He is a surprise surprise. I know those in this audience. You're you're not gonna be surprised at all. He did end the show saying he would have me on his channel when he discussed what I what I said about him.

He said he was willing to do a debate with me on the issue of you know affirming Christianity. Are you surprised drew that he emailed me and said no. No, you're not worth it. You're a waste of time, but if you want to set something up with James White or Michael Brown, I'll be happy to debate them.

I'm not surprised. And then someone because.

Look.

He's bypassing you to get to James White and Michael Brown. But that what that tells me is he's not after truth and having a truthful discussion with anyone. He's looking for clout. He's looking for something that he can get his name attached to.

Because those men have really big platforms and you know that Andrew your platform just isn't big enough for him. Yeah.

Do you remember when we first discussed? I can. Now I got a rare if it was you or Aaron then when I first got the email that we talked about it and I had said I think he just wants a platform and Sure enough.

He was all upset because he couldn't do a monologue even though he spoke more in the first hour than Aaron or I combined and he says we cut him off and didn't let him talk.

We have.

Between the shows you've done before I regularly came on and then the shows we've had since I've been on as a regular There have been many where we have had guests on and we've just they've taken up pretty much the whole show.

Because we've let them talk. Yeah, and then but then to say.

Two hours and they and you're going. Oh, he didn't let me talk. So yeah, so needless to say the reason at the end of the show last week I purposely showed his comments saying he would have me on his on his channel to discuss it that he would do a debate.

And. His whole thing was that he says he was he's claiming now he asked for the debate, but I wouldn't allow it. I called him up and asked do you want to do a debate or discussion? He chose discussion.

The fact that he still won't debate me is proof of which one so I.

Don't think I've ever seen you run from a debate. I've seen you very much run to them saying, you know, it's almost like come here. Come here. I'll debate you I'll debate you. And then everyone turns around is like oh he's serious and then hightails it out, you know.

Interesting you should say that because that's almost like tonight's show which by the way Um. So so people are having a little bit of fun here. So I'm wondering saying that you know.

The title is is wrong and misspelled because it's no we're talking about. We're talking about Pete. Full Peter ism. You can't go full Peter and. And be okay, right. You gotta reject some Peter isms. It should be.

But hey, you know just dropping one letter, you know me.

So.

But by the way, I hope Jason's okay with me doing this. Jason said. What's up, brother drew. So I want to give a shout out to Jason my fellow Georgia boy here. And a congratulations. Oh go dogs or something, right?

Aren't you? No, I'm actually gonna give him a congratulations because he just got engaged.

Okay.

Well, that's good.

Very happy about that.

So.

You're you know, there's a lot of things we we've been holding off we should talk about we we haven't gotten a chance to and There's there's one that I've been saving so let me let me just read the email but just put a pull up the email that I got and Drew I know you're gonna fully understand this but So the email had a link to YouTube.

Dear Andrew. We know that you we are sorry. We now know that you support women preachers. Here is the evidence of it. You need to repent of your sin of Putting women in a box and not allowing them to have their God-given role to preach.

You ready for the evidence? You're gonna love this ready? Here it is this is. This is pastor. Say it pastor Sarah now I'm gonna remove the banner so you could see the proof ready for the proof there you see at the bottom with the title of this is the title of the message is striving for eternity and Living a crucified life with Christ and there is pastor Sarah I actually watched this if you want to call it a sermon.

It really was just the rah-rah session. She never actually mentioned striving for eternity in the whole thing. So here's the best evidence that people have to prove that I really support women preachers that some If you called a church some woman titled the YouTube Striving for eternity and that is proof that I really support.

Women how dare you. You know, you know, you know why it is that you support this because striving for eternity is Copyrighted and therefore they have to get your permission to put it on there so that you know, obviously you approve.

Yeah, it's like I just some of this stuff we get. I you know, you can't make this up so. So let's talk about how we got to this, you know. Discussion on on full Peter ism or as someone said full Pedro Pedro ism.

And so We we ended up having someone you and I were on Twitter someone was making a case for full preterism and Basically was arguing that There's no defense against it it is it's you you can't make an argument against it.

Which of course I invited him on here and said let's you know, you would you be willing to debate it and he said yes. So I contacted two people that I happened to meet when I was at the open-air theology pre-conference.

On.

Full preterism. Hmm. So I said, hey, would you be willing to debate with this guy from Twitter and both of our well. The one guest that's here, but both men said sure we could do that.

And.

You know, so I as you know responded back on Twitter and said, okay, we got it set up for you. I private dm'd him and said, you know, it's all set up. You know, we could do it, you know on whatever thursday works well for you.

And I heard nothing. Yeah. So I set it up. I contacted dr Sam frost and and jeremiah who will have on and I just said okay you guys want to come on anyway. And if we do the debate we do the debate and if not, you know.

We could just discuss it and they said sure.

So.

As typical we have people that say they're willing to do a debate and his response was When we when we said we debate do you remember what his response was drew? He only wanted to debate at where?

He only wanted to debate on twitter.

On twitter. Couldn't debate anywhere else. And do you remember his reason. His reason was great?

Oh, he said. He said, uh, i'm now he he has an anonymous facebook or twitter account but he says I have to remain anonymous because Of it was like his influence or the church he goes to or something. And it's because of his end times view.

Yeah his end times view and so i'm going. Well, if this is the view you hold to. But you have to remain anonymous because of it's probably not a good view to hold to.

Especially when it's there's no. No refuting the view right? And so I messaged him this past week and said hey look. We got it all set up. And he says you don't tell me the day and time. I said, okay.

I asked you what day and time you could set it up for a different day. And so what was his response? There we go. Here it is. Yep. Block you. He blocked me.

You don't tell me when i'm gonna do it. Yeah, because he's willing to debate folks.

If you guys can go and find mr. It's p a r o u s ia 70.

Parousia.

Yeah, go find him and tag him and say why wouldn't you debate?

Maybe we can all go on x and and and shame him into doing a debate now the now the way even. So I started interacting with I made a post and then I started interacting with them and I know you saw it and you came in as well.

But this this was when they were doing uh, the dead men walking guys were doing their bracket for podcasts, right? And so on the bracket they had gary demar's podcast and I kind of made a comment. I said well, I think you should remove gary demar.

From there because he's been called out by even. By post mill guys, they drafted a letter calling him to repentance to stop his view of full preterism and uh. So so I was reaching out to them about that and then this guy came and commented and was just like well What's wrong with full preterism?

And the the conversation just ensued from there. I was like, well, it's a heresy. Okay, what's heretical about it? Uh the fact that.

Jesus.

Said he was gonna come back Bodily, and he hasn't yet and that there's going to be certain Things that happen right when he comes back, right? Whether you're whether you're pre-mill disbey pre-mill all mill post mill, right?

We all believe that christ is coming back. That's an essential Tenant of christianity if you deny that you're outside of christianity.

Yeah, and we're gonna we're gonna bring jeremiah on now before I do I should we should mention because I do want to mention this is uh I have a video. I don't know if we'll get to it from living waters, but for folks who don't know um recently.

Uh, richard dawkins claims. He is a christian.

Well.

A cultural christian. And for for those who have been regular here those especially those who've been here from the beginning of this show, you know I have said for the longest time.

That.

Atheists are going to really regret the fact that they want to silence christianity because in their silence silencing of christianity Islam is rising.

And.

Islam versus atheism islam wins.

Okay.

Muslims are living for an afterlife and atheists are living for this life. So muslims are willing to die For what they believe and atheists aren't. Well. He ended up saying that um that the um. As he's looking at the rise of islam in the uk He's he prefers to be a cultural christian.

He doesn't believe in anything of christianity, but he recognizes that christianity is a better System to live under than islam and as his country is starting to go islamic. He suddenly wants to bring back Christian morals and christian culture without the christ of christianity.

Uh.

So yeah, yeah, you've been saying a lot like uh, welcome to the party. You you've been we've been telling you yeah, that's a lot like thomas jefferson. Yeah. Yeah. He's another thomas jefferson was uh,.

A deist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean he had his own version of the bible right? Yeah.

Mm. That is correct. So let's bring in. You you keep you know, you're down. I know you're in that. Uh. You know that georgia where you keep going go dogs for some reason. Yeah, so we should we should bring on yeah, because you may you're a fan of dogs.

Well, how about we bring on the apologetic dog himself?

Go dogs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So so you and I got to meet down in uh, in tennessee there at the open air theology conference, you did a.

Uh.

A pre-conference with sam frost on the issue of full peterism.

By the way.

Drew told me I have to call it peterism throughout the whole show. So.

I did not.

Oh.

But uh. But yeah, so you you guys have Done a lot of study in this. Uh, I did enough study to just say oh you deny the second coming. Okay heresy move on. Like that was enough for me. But it was really it was quite interesting to listen to you and sam talk.

Because being from a jewish background So much of what you are bringing up they're arguing based on a Wrong understanding of judaism and i'm like Wow, okay. It's like i'm almost sad that this guy didn't come in and debate.

Uh, because it would have been really interesting you know if he made the arguments that you were saying that folks there make so introduce yourself to the audience here and maybe maybe just maybe you want to explain what the Apologetics dog is like.

I even have this thing right here. It says apologetic dog. Yeah, there's a little qr code. Yeah, I saved that you thought I was gonna throw it out when you gave. Yeah, I did. No, i'm gonna throw it out now.

Well, um, so I firstly serve as a pastor and elder at 12 -5 church in jonesborough, arkansas we're the only reformed baptist church in our town and it's been incredible to kind of Explain to people the doctrines of grace and the beauty of the sovereignty of god and how we can have security And um our salvation uh work that god has begun.

And so out of 12 -5, uh, my church family has supported me and encouraged me to pursue apologetics. It's kind of how i'm wired. I've been watching your your content andrew for a number of years with matt slick and Really appreciative of dr. James white's books and the content that he puts out there so for the past two years or so, um, I started up the the apologetic dog and If you see in that the logo It's first timothy 6 20 where paul says that timothy Oh timothy guard the deposit that's entrusted to you.

And so the mindset for the apologetic dog is that we are all christians are guarding like a guard dog The gospel of grace and how do we do that? Well, we avoid irreverent babble pagan philosophy and contradictions Of what is falsely called knowledge so i'm very presuppositional in my apologetics because I believe that you can't leave the christian worldview a Proper foundation for how we know who we are as people and how we ought to live towards one another and to give god Glory, so that's a little bit of the apologetic dog.

I just had my 11th debate Um live and in person at 12 -5 church with a church of christ on the topic of baptism. I'd like for people to go over to my channel on youtube and Please like subscribe share the content and if you're a glutton for punishment and you like to watch the three hour debates Then i've done I think around 11 or so now i've been on standing for truth at donny's channel and the gospel truth marlin Love those guys.

So I have just a lot of content there. So I have a website that's getting revamped. So you'll have to go check that out as well.

Yeah, d says, um. Hey, jeremiah. You're a busy man. I just watched you live.

Well, thank you. It was a premiere so we have to have to batch content, you know, what it's like andrew.

No.

I'm, not as busy as you.

Well.

But you do i'm a busy man. You do have a lot of debates or discussions about church of christ.

Yeah.

And so, you know folks are regular here. They'll remember pastor norm. Pastor norm was a fun one. I remember that episode. Oh, you do. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Pastor norm was fun. He never came back unfortunately, but uh.

But yeah, so so what got you interested in? Church studying church of christ. And what got you interested in studying full preterism?

Well, great question because there's actually a shared reason for why so here in jonesborough arkansas. It's typically southern baptist churches and church of christ. So i've grown up in this town my whole life.

And as I started sharing the gospel and sharing my faith early in my 20s I remember I interacted with a jehovah's witness. That just said jeremiah show me anywhere in the bible where it says the word trinity.

And they had me running on a wild goose chase and I just remember thinking wow i'm so unequipped. I was laying down at night like I profess to believe in the trinity. I can't articulate it and I can't defend it from scripture.

And so that really started to challenge me to learn the word of god. Hide it in my heart to be able to share it with precision and well with other people. And so that was a good learning experience for me.

Not too much longer after that. I started, you know. Interacting with in my opinion at the time was other brothers and sisters in the church of christ talking about the gospel. And it didn't take long for me to think wow.

We are speaking two different languages. We're using the same terminology, but we mean way different things. And for them it's acts 238 it's mark 16 16 first peer 321 all the eight proof text. And i'm realizing oh they think your past sins are actually remitted and washed away in the actual water.

And we're like no that's that's adding works to the gospel of grace and you've deviated from the only gospel that can save. And so throughout my 20s It just was a lot of my friends people family members.

Everybody knows somebody that's a member of the church of christ here in my town and so as I was beginning to learn their theology and learn the history that goes all the way back to alexander and thomas campbell in the early 1800s I'm, like wow, this is a restorationist.

Cult and that's the big c word that no one likes. And I was actually able to be on cultish the the podcast on apologia with my good friend Trey fisher and they interviewed us examining the church of christ cult.

And the reason why I did it andrew was because as I was looking online. There was like no apologetics ministry to help people learn who the church of christ truly is. And how to evangelize them with the gospel of grace.

So me and my friend trey we were like, you know. This feels like our nineveh like god is calling us here because every time I try to go the opposite direction. It just kind of pulls me right back in.

And.

So I have a heart for the church of christ. I love These people enough to tell them the truth. And me being reformed, you know, I spoke at the why calvinism conference. I believe that god has A people that are trapped in this group that need to hear the gospel of grace to be saved out of it.

And I do think people can be saved in these cults in these Places in spite of what's being taught to them once again even more reason to evangelize them apologetically. So, you know crushing their worldview with the word of god and god's truth.

So that that's how the church of christ began. Uh about two years ago this birth the apologetic dog ministry I debated at the university in jonesborough asu arkansas state university. With a church of christ minister and about 200 people in the audience and it was the first time about you know, 60 to 80.

Oh, well, maybe over a hundred church of christ had to listen to this baptist explain acts 238 in context, uh andrew. They're all the front row were church christ and they had just the meanest looks. At me the whole time you've ever seen and so that's a popular video on my channel.

I encourage people to go check out. Um enjoyed it. Brock said he would debate me again, and he will never respond to me. So that's not gonna happen.

Um.

So has he about a year ago? Has he blocked you yet? He's not blocked me. I think they're keeping tabs on me. So I don't know they're they're welcome to check it out. When I do a live stream on facebook I can see everybody that's tuned in so people that aren't my fans.

I'm like, hey, you're still watching out there.

So.

Church of christ though, then that's a big emphasis in my apologetics ministry. It's not the only thing like I want it to be not just a negative Apologetics ministry. I vindicate the christian worldview with the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

You know what I mean? So about a year ago and I explained this, um a little bit in my presentation at the um, The the dangers of hyperpreterism or preterism where you are calling it now. So I kind of gave a little backdrop what pulled me into this world because I was very comfortable on my hashtag pan millennialism just was like Um, i'm hashtag johnny mack dispensational pre-mill was for eight years.

Not anymore. Sorry for people out there that maybe still are love johnny mack.

So I was just comfortable with having that if you want to be wrong for a few years on earth. We understand.

Yeah, you gotta you gotta show me some grace there. But but I love i'm indebted to that man's ministry. So I always have to consult the johnny mack. But i'm just saying like I never was challenged to think about a lot of stuff.

It's just comfortable. Then I had a friend in ministry. Say hey, uh, i'm i'm planning on studying eschatology. What do you think. And I was just like well. Just be sure to come out of the dark closet from time to time and interact with people and don't get lost in it.

I said i'm gonna study apologetics and so i'm i'm a pastor but the way that I teach and preach very apologetics, you know bent. And he's like, okay, so he started studying Um eschatology and it was just a matter of months.

He went from pre-mill. He was all mill for maybe a week. Then he was the post mill for the longest time and I remember he got and I would talk to him along the way. And one day he called me. He said jeremiah.

I think i'm a heretic and I was like, whoa. Back up there. And I was like, what are you talking about he goes. I think I'm a full preterist and I said is that The heresy that denies the future coming of jesus the future resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things.

And he said yeah, I can't refute it. And i'm like dude, it's okay to struggle with something. But don't preach it. You don't have to believe it you can struggle with it. And I remember at the time he told me well.

I.

I know if the problem is not with the word of god. The problem is with me and he said I think I may just resign because I don't want to ruin people's lives and I was kind of like oh. There's a glimmer of hope here if he's at least thinking along those lines.

But it was just a matter of months until he did the full swing. He was actually pastoring a southern baptist church. And I remember one of our last conversations. I said if you start preaching this. You know what I have to do, right?

And he said I totally understand you have to warn people you have to follow your convictions and I just said it's not personal I said but don't do it man. And if you do i'm gonna let everybody know. So he did it.

And the director of his association their southern baptist. They I don't know how they called me, but they're just like jeremiah. What's full preterism? Why is it bad? Um, can we set up a lunch with you?

And I said absolutely. I got a lot to share with you because i've been talking with this individual for a long time. And along the way I called up. Dr. Frost, which he may be joining us later. We'll see.

And i've had him just constantly explaining me to me the ins and outs because he was a major Speaker in the full preterist movement for a decade from about 2000 to 2010 around there so anyway, um started Telling people about this church that's preaching it and it was just you know, a handful of weeks until um.

He convinced his church to leave the sbc the associate the associate the local association and the arkansas Association and so he has totally converted this baptist church into a full preterist church.

Uh, they're going to host a conference in arkansas in jonesborough and they got gary demar speaking at it and all the other full preterists. Like why this is in my front yard, you know. Anyway, um i've been kind of the one people calling me up saying hey.

My pastor is starting to say things like this. It sounds a little weird. And so i've been really trying to be a voice of reason to say Hey, this is a redefining of what our future blessed Hope has always been all the disagreements that the church has had for 2 000 years.

You know the one thing andrew that they've agreed upon our blessed hope being future. And I tell people that's not just good enough to say that only is saying that history is obviously affirmed this but I tell people.

That full preterism fails historically. Logically, so you'll see a little bit of internal critique and presuppositionalism going on there and it fails. Exegetically and so you remember my presentation was kind of a walkthrough of first corinthians 15 20 through 26 obviously within the broader framework of pauline's uh theology.

But then also the the canonical context because I dealt with You know multiple objections that full preterists will make in first corinthians 15. So we might can touch on a few of those. But yeah, um, and I learned this.

Um max king church of christ minister. He was kind of the first one to have a full orbed um understanding of of full preterism and he called it covenantal eschatology and i'm like How about that this has its roots and none other than the church of christ.

Yeah, so the thing is. Yeah, we're not gonna i was gonna eventually get to what's over your shoulder there. We'll get to them shortly. So, uh, let's see. John asks a question for you. Apologize dog. Pre-millennialism post-millennialism or amillennialism.

Brother john I'm gonna answer it like this.

He's pro millennial. He's pro millennial. If there's a millennium he's all for it.

I have a playlist on my channel of five sermons you know presentations I did and the first one was a flower review of the three orthodox perspectives pre-mill all mill and post mill. And then the next three was a positive presentation of each individual one because I can speak the lingo baby and then number five was the death knell.

To hyper preterism, so guess where I landed for now. Andrew. I've landed all mill for the time. Yeah for the time for the time.

So so he's so what you're saying is you're really post mill, right? I say that because because All mill obviously right? No, because all mill is believes there's there's no Literal millennium, right? But you do believe that the millennium is figurative, but christ is returning at the end of that millennium right, so no post.

No, okay, so.

Could we? Jeremiah, can we just agree you and I. Can we just agree that post mill is a confused on millennial?

Position.

I I like to tell people this pre-mill has everything downward trending Postman has everything upward trending and all mill says and Righteousness are going to both increase until the end of the age.

No, I I like it better. I'll mill just has nothing.

No, where's dr frost. I have my back here.

All right, so so let's get into some definitions of terms. For folks who don't who there's maybe people listening first time they're saying I have no idea what full preterism is. How do people come to that conclusion now?

First of all I I do want to point out for folks Something that you did say because this is how we we try to encourage people to do here on on this is to educate people on our apologetics. Folks did you hear what jeremiah said a bit ago is that he was able to Articulate different views even in the ones he does not hold to.

That is what we always have to do. We have to be able to articulate someone else's position. If you think back to the guy that with the affirming christianity the problem he had was We wanted to define terms so that we could properly represent him and he didn't like the fact that the definitions Didn't match the bible right?

So But you have to be able to properly articulate Someone else's view especially before you're going to debate them.

All right, can I chime in with something real quick? Sure. I remember you were debating somebody that was very hostile to calvinism. And I believe you might have brought this up in which one.

Yeah.

The the time where the guy you were leading him through each five points and he he was like, oh, I actually believed all that. Yeah, I just remember thinking you get you got to know the opposition or the so-called opposition.

This is why people should not debate like don't debate against calvinism when you're actually a calvinist. You just don't understand the definition.

Andrew is going to ask you some questions and then he's going to say You are a calvinist.

God saves yes. Yeah.

So.

So jeremiah, I do have a question as it relates to kind of what andrew was saying as how one arrives at the full preterist position. Because what i've noticed Is and i've noticed this with specifically two prominent men, uh.

Is that you kind of get there arrive there from the post mill position? And I and I look at david chilton, right. Because he was a post mill. He's written some works that post mills will use. Uh his commentaries on on revelation.

And then by the end of his life, he was a full preterist. And then gary demar who was actually not a full preterist but when david chilton became one and he was asked to Call david chilton back from that.

And now he ends up being one. So it seems like evidence not to be post mill. See that.

Look where at least. No, no. We should clarify something because you mentioned it demar, uh earlier, too so in that podcast. Uh that where you were you mentioned demar was on. I think it was a canon press podcast.

My understanding that he was removed from that. Yeah. And so when when you brought that up about that podcast he had been removed from there. Uh, people had commented to me when I Said when I asked something about that, um.

So I guess it was so that's probably a good thing that they removed him. But yeah, so so jeremiah, how how do people? Come to we'll first give the definition like what is full preterism? Then how do people come to this conclusion?

Yeah.

So full preterism is being distinguished from partial preterism. And full preterism says all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled up to 70 a .d with the destruction of the temple. And like I said partial preterist would see a lot of things in the past fulfillments.

Prater preterism means past past fulfillment and all christians believe that some things have happened in the past the virgin birth Jesus being the suffering servant died on the cross for our sins. That's prater in our past.

And so the question is, you know What things are we going to put in the box that were past and then what are we going to put in the box? That is our future our future blessed Hope that you know god promises to to deliver us from this sin cursed world and so forth.