Is Full Peterism Heresy or not?

Striving for Eternity Videos

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Are you saying that someone a believer can go sleep with a prostitute and it wouldn't be right or wrong because he's not under the law

00:09

Anymore is so if he if he sleeps with a prostitute, but has faith in doing it, then it's okay

00:17

Yeah, it's okay Okay, I'm gonna ask this again because I want to make sure that I heard you correctly

00:25

Yeah, it's okay. It would be as long as you have faith on That Wow, okay, um, you're saying that as long as we have faith

00:40

Whatever we do in faith is not sin Yes We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the

01:07

Bible we can answer any question you have about God in the Bible if you doubt that you just come on in ask any question and Just remember if I say

01:15

I don't know that's a perfect time for you to ask a question Perfectly good answer. Let me bring my co -hosted drew in here.

01:21

How are you? Doing well doing well, you know, my my internet hasn't been acting up the whole time

01:29

Pre -show and now it started glitching. And so I'm like, oh, please hold on at least for this hour

01:37

Of course, of course and I'm trying to look for Last week we mentioned about we did the end of the show

01:44

We talked about the guy Anthony who was on here when we did the he wanted to make a case for same -sex marriage

01:52

And find his email now. I should have had that up before him. But but a follow -up. He is a surprise surprise

01:58

I know those in this audience. You're you're not gonna be surprised at all He did end the show saying he would have me on his channel when he discussed what

02:07

I what I said about him He said he was willing to do a debate with me on the issue of you know affirming

02:15

Christianity Are you surprised drew that he emailed me and said no. No, you're not worth it you're a waste of time, but if you want to set something up with James White or Michael Brown, I'll be happy to debate them

02:29

I'm not surprised and then someone because look He's bypassing you to get to James White and Michael Brown But that what that tells me is he's not after truth and having a truthful discussion with anyone he's looking for clout

02:46

He's looking for something that he can get his name attached to Because those men have really big platforms and you know that Andrew your platform just isn't big enough for him

02:57

Yeah, do you remember when we first discussed? I can now I got a rare if it was you or Aaron then when

03:03

I first got the email that we talked about And I had said I think he just wants a platform and Sure enough.

03:12

He was all upset because he couldn't do a monologue even though he spoke more in the first hour than Aaron or I combined and he says we cut him off and didn't let him talk

03:24

We'll have Between the shows you've done before I regularly came on and then the shows we've had since I've been on as a regular

03:35

There have been many where we have had guests on and we've just they've taken up pretty much the whole show

03:41

Because we've let them talk. Yeah, and then but then to say Two hours and they and you're going.

03:48

Oh, he didn't let me talk So yeah, so needless to say the reason at the end of the show last week

03:55

I purposely showed his comment saying he would have me on his on his channel to discuss it

04:01

That he would do a debate and his whole thing was that he says he was he's claiming now He asked for the debate, but I wouldn't allow it.

04:08

I called him up and asked Do you want to do a debate or discussion? He chose discussion?

04:14

The fact that he still won't debate me is proof of which one so I don't think

04:20

I've ever seen you run from a debate I've seen you very much run to them saying, you know, it's almost like come here.

04:27

Come here. I'll debate you I'll debate you and then everyone turns around is like, oh he's serious and then hightails it out, you know

04:34

Interesting. You should say that because that's almost like tonight's show which by the way, um

04:40

So so people are having a little bit of fun here Someone was saying that uh, you know, the title is is wrong and misspelled because it's no we're talking about We're talking about pete full peterism.

04:51

You can't go full peter and uh And be okay, right? You've got to reject some peterisms

04:57

It should be But hey, you know just dropping one letter, you know, maybe

05:06

But by the way, I hope jason's okay with me doing this jason said what's up brother drew

05:11

So I want to give a shout out to jason my fellow georgia boy here Uh and a congratulations go dogs or something, right?

05:19

Aren't you? No, i'm actually going to give him a congratulations Because he just got engaged. Ah, okay

05:25

Well, that's good very happy about that So, um, you're you know, there's a lot of things we we've been holding off we we should talk about we we haven't gotten a chance to and um

05:42

There's there's one that i've been saving so Let me let me uh, just read the email.

05:48

I'm just going to pull up the email that I got And I drew I know you are going to fully

05:54

Understand this but um, so the email had a link to youtube dear andrew

06:04

We know that you We are sorry. We now know that you support women preachers

06:11

Here is the evidence of it you need to repent of your sin of Putting women in a box and not allowing them to have their god -given role to preach

06:24

You ready for the evidence you're going to love this ready Here it is This is

06:30

This is pastor. Sant pastor. Sarah Now i'm going to remove the banner so you can see

06:37

The proof ready for the proof there you see at the bottom what the title of this is the title of the message is striving for Eternity and living a crucified life with christ and there is pastor.

06:49

Sarah Uh, I actually watched this If you want to call it a sermon, it really was just a rah -rah session um

06:58

She never actually mentioned striving for eternity in the whole thing So here's the best evidence that people have to prove that I really support women preachers that some

07:08

If you called a church some woman titled the youtube striving for eternity and that is proof that I really support women

07:18

How dare you you know, you know, you know why it is that you support this because striving for eternity

07:27

Is copyrighted and therefore they have to get your permission to put it on there so that you know, obviously you approve

07:36

Yeah, it's like I just some of the stuff we get I you know, you can't make this up so um

07:42

So let's talk about how we got to this, you know Discussion on on full peterism, uh, or as someone said pro pedro pedro ism um, and so uh

07:57

We we ended up having someone you and I were on twitter uh, someone was making a case for full preterism and uh

08:07

Basically was arguing that uh, there's no defense against it It is it's you you can't make an argument against it

08:16

Which of course I invited him on here and said let's you know, would you be willing to debate it and he said yes

08:22

So I contacted two people that I happened to meet when I was at the open air theology pre -conference uh on full preterism

08:32

So I said hey, would you be willing to debate with this guy from twitter and both of our well the one guest that's here

08:38

But both men said sure we could do that and You know, so I as you know responded back on twitter and said, okay, we got it set up for you

08:48

I private dm'd him and said, you know, it's all set up You know, we could do it, you know on whatever thursday works well for you

08:56

And I heard nothing. Yeah So I set it up. I contacted dr

09:02

Sam frost and and jeremiah who will have on and I just said, okay, you guys want to come on anyway?

09:08

And if we do the debate we do the debate and if not, you know We could just discuss it and they said sure so As typical we have people that say they're willing to do a debate and his response was

09:20

When we when we said we debate do you remember what his response was drew? He only wanted to debate at where? He only wanted to debate on twitter on twitter

09:30

Couldn't debate anywhere else and do you remember his reason his reason was? Oh, he said

09:36

He said, uh i'm now he he has an anonymous facebook or twitter account but he says

09:42

I have to remain anonymous because Of it was like his influence or the church he goes to or something

09:49

And it's because of his end times view. Yeah his end times view and so i'm going Well, if this is the view you hold to But you have to remain anonymous because of it's probably not a good view to hold to Especially when it's there's no

10:06

No refuting the view right? And so I messaged him this past week and said hey, look we got it all set up And he says you don't tell me the day and time

10:16

I said, okay I asked you what day and time you could set it up for a different day And so what was his response?

10:23

There we go. Here it is Yep, block you. He blocked me You don't tell me when i'm gonna do it.

10:29

Yeah, because he's willing to debate folks If you guys can go and find mr.

10:35

It's p a r o u s i a 70 parousia

10:42

Yeah, go find him and tag him and say why wouldn't you debate? Maybe we can all go on x and and and shame him into doing a debate now the now the way even

10:53

So I started interacting with I made a post and then I started interacting with them And I know you saw it and you came in as well

11:00

But this this was when they were doing uh, the dead men walking guys were doing their bracket for podcasts, right?

11:08

And so on the bracket they had gary demar's podcast and I kind of made a comment

11:13

I said well, I think you should remove gary demar from there because He's been called out by even by post mill guys.

11:23

They drafted a letter calling him to repentance to stop His view of full preterism and uh

11:31

So so I was reaching out to them about that and then this guy came and commented and was just like well

11:36

What's wrong with full preterism? And the the conversation just ensued from there.

11:42

I was like, well, it's a heresy. Okay, what's heretical about it? uh the fact that Jesus Said he was gonna come back

11:51

Bodily and he hasn't yet and that there's going to be certain Things that happen right when he comes back, right?

11:59

Whether you're whether you're pre -mill disbey pre -mill all mill post mill, right?

12:06

We all believe that christ is coming back that's an essential Tenant of christianity if you deny that you're outside of christianity

12:16

Yeah, and we're gonna we're gonna bring jeremiah on now before I do I should we should mention because I do want to mention this is uh

12:23

I have a video. I don't know if we'll get to it from living waters, but for folks who don't know um recently

12:30

Uh, richard dawkins claims. He is a christian well a cultural christian

12:35

And for for those who have been regular here those especially those who've been here from the beginning of this show, you know

12:42

I have said for the longest time that Atheists are going to really regret the fact that they want to silence christianity because in their silence silencing of christianity islam is rising and islam versus atheism islam wins

13:00

Okay Muslims are living for an afterlife and atheists are living for this life.

13:07

So muslims are willing to die for what they believe And atheists aren't well

13:13

He ended up saying that um that the um As he's looking at the rise of islam in the uk

13:23

He's he prefers to be a cultural christian. He doesn't believe in anything of christianity, but he recognizes that christianity is a better System to live under than islam and as his country is starting to go islamic.

13:39

He suddenly wants to bring back Christian morals and christian culture without the christ of christianity uh

13:50

So yeah, yeah, you've been saying a lot like uh, welcome to the party You you've been we've been telling you yeah, that's a lot like thomas jefferson.

14:00

Yeah. Yeah. He's another thomas jefferson was uh, a deist

14:06

Yeah Yeah I mean he had his own version of the bible right? Yeah Mm.

14:13

That is correct. So let's bring in You you keep you know, you're down. I know you're in that.

14:19

Uh You know that georgia where you keep going go dogs for some reason Yeah, so we should we should bring on yeah, because you may you're a fan of dogs

14:28

Well, how about we bring on the apologetic dog himself? Go dogs

14:36

Yeah Yeah so so you and I got to meet down in uh, in tennessee there at the open air theology conference you did a uh

14:48

A pre -conference with sam frost on the issue of full peterism by the way

14:55

Drew told me I have to call it peterism throughout the whole show. So I did not

15:02

Oh but uh But yeah, so you you guys have Done a lot of study in this

15:09

Uh, I did enough study to just say oh you deny the second coming. Okay heresy move on Like that was enough for me

15:19

But it was really it was quite interesting to listen to you and sam talk Because being from a jewish background

15:27

So much of what you are bringing up they're arguing based on a

15:33

Wrong understanding of judaism and i'm like Wow, okay. It's like i'm almost sad that this guy didn't come in and debate

15:41

Because it would have been really interesting you know if he made the arguments that you were saying that folks there make so introduce yourself to the audience here and maybe maybe just maybe you want to explain what the

15:55

Apologetics dog is like I even have this thing right here. It says apologetic dog. Yeah, there's a little qr code

16:01

Yeah, I saved that you thought I was gonna throw it out when you gave. Yeah, I did. No, i'm gonna throw it out now

16:09

Well, um, so I firstly serve as a pastor and elder at 12 -5 church in jonesborough, arkansas we're the only reformed baptist church in our town and it's been incredible to kind of Explain to people the doctrines of grace and the beauty of the sovereignty of god and how we can have security

16:26

And um our salvation uh work that god has begun And so out of 12 -5, uh, my church family has supported me and encouraged me to pursue apologetics it's kind of how i'm wired i've been watching your your content andrew for a number of years with matt slick and Really appreciative of dr.

16:44

James white's books and the content that he puts out there so for the past two years or so, um,

16:51

I started up the the apologetic dog and If you see in that the logo it's first timothy 620 where paul says that timothy

16:59

Oh timothy guard the deposit that's entrusted to you And so the mindset for the apologetic dog is that we are all christians are guarding like a guard dog the gospel of grace

17:09

And how do we do that? Well, we avoid irreverent babble pagan philosophy and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge

17:17

So i'm very presuppositional in my apologetics because I believe that you can't leave the christian worldview a proper foundation for how we know

17:25

Who we are as people and how we ought to live towards one another and to give god glory So that's a little bit of the apologetic dog.

17:31

I just had my 11th debate Um live and in person at 12 -5 church with a church of christ on the topic of baptism

17:38

I'd like for people to go over to my channel on youtube and please like subscribe share the content

17:44

And if you're a glutton for punishment and you like to watch the three -hour debates Then i've done

17:50

I think around 11 or so now i've been on standing for truth at donny's channel and the gospel truth marlin

17:56

Love those guys So I have just a lot of content there. So I have a website that's getting revamped

18:03

So you'll have to go check that out as well Yeah, d says, um Hey, jeremiah. You're a busy man.

18:08

I just watched you live Well, thank you. It was a premiere. So we have to Have to batch content, you know, what it's like andrew

18:18

No I'm, not as busy as you Yeah, you so But you do i'm a busy man

18:25

You do have a lot of debates or discussions about church of christ

18:32

Yeah And so, you know folks are regular here. They'll remember pastor norm. Pastor norm was a fun one

18:38

I remember that episode. Oh, you do. Okay. Okay. Yeah pastor norm was fun. He never came back unfortunately, but uh

18:46

But yeah, so so what got you interested in? Church studying church of christ and what got you interested in studying full preterism?

18:56

Well, great question because there's actually a shared reason for why so here in jonesborough arkansas

19:02

It's typically southern baptist churches and church of christ. So i've grown up in this town my whole life And as I started sharing the gospel and sharing my faith early in my 20s

19:11

I remember I interacted with a jehovah's witness That just said jeremiah show me anywhere in the bible where it says the word trinity

19:17

And they had me running on a wild goose chase and I just remember thinking wow i'm so unequipped

19:22

I was laying down at night like I profess to believe in the trinity. I can't articulate it and I can't defend it from scripture

19:30

And so that really started to challenge me to learn the word of god Hide it in my heart to be able to share it with precision and well with other people

19:39

And so that was a good learning experience for me Not too much longer after that. I started, you know interacting with in my opinion at the time

19:47

Was other brothers and sisters in the church of christ talking about the gospel And it didn't take long for me to think wow, we

19:56

Are speaking two different languages we're using the same terminology, but we mean way different things

20:02

And for them it's acts 238 It's mark 1616 first peer 321 all the eight proof text

20:07

And i'm realizing oh they think your past sins are actually remitted and washed away in the actual water

20:15

And we're like no that's that's adding works to the gospel of grace and you've deviated from the only gospel that can save And so throughout my 20s

20:23

It just was a lot of my friends people family members. Everybody knows somebody that's a member of the church of christ here in my town

20:33

And so as I was beginning to learn their theology and learn the history that goes all the way back to alexander and thomas campbell

20:40

In the early 1800s i'm like wow, this is a restorationist cult and that's the big c word that no one likes and I was actually able to be on cultish the

20:51

The podcast on apology with my good friend trey fisher and they interviewed us examining the church of christ cult

20:58

And the reason why I did it andrew was because as I was looking online there was like no Apologetics ministry to help people learn who the church of christ truly is and how to evangelize them with the gospel of grace

21:11

So me and my friend trey we were like, you know This feels like our nineveh like god is calling us here because every time I try to go the opposite direction

21:17

It just kind of pulls me right back in And so I have a heart for the church of christ.

21:23

I love These people enough to tell them the truth And me being reformed, you know,

21:29

I spoke at the y calvinism conference I believe that god has A people that are trapped in this group that need to hear the gospel of grace to be saved out of it

21:37

And I do think people can be saved in these cults in these Places in spite of what's being taught to them once again even more reason to evangelize them apologetically

21:48

So, you know crushing their worldview with the word of god and god's truth So that that's how the church of christ began.

21:56

Uh about two years ago this birth the apologetic dog ministry I debated at the university in jonesborough asu arkansas state university

22:04

With a church of christ minister and about 200 people in the audience and it was the first time about you know, 60 to 80

22:13

Oh, well, maybe over 100 church of christ had to listen to this baptist explain acts 238 in context, uh andrew

22:20

They're all the front row or church christ and they had just the meanest looks At me the whole time you've ever seen and so that's a popular video on my channel.

22:28

I encourage people to go check out Um enjoyed it brock said he would debate me again, and he will never respond to me.

22:35

So that's not gonna happen um So has he about a year ago? Has he blocked you yet?

22:40

He's not blocked me. I think they're keeping tabs on me So I don't know they're they're welcome to check it out when I do a live stream on facebook

22:46

I can see everybody that's tuned in so people that aren't my fans. I'm like, hey, you're still watching out there so Church of christ though, then that's a big emphasis in my apologetics ministry

22:56

It's not the only thing like I want it to be not just a negative Apologetics ministry. I vindicate the christian worldview with the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

23:07

You know what I mean? so about a year ago and I explained this, um a little bit in my presentation at the um,

23:15

The the dangers of hyperpreterism or preterism where you are calling it now so I kind of gave a little backdrop what pulled me into this world because I was very comfortable on my hashtag pan millennialism just was like Um, i'm hashtag johnny mack dispensational pre -mill was for eight years.

23:34

Not anymore Sorry for people out there that maybe still are love johnny mack So I was just comfortable with having that framework for a few years on earth.

23:42

We understand Yeah, you gotta you gotta show me some grace there But but I love i'm indebted to that man's ministry.

23:49

So I always have to consult the johnny mack But i'm just saying like I never was challenged to think about a lot of stuff.

23:55

It's just comfortable Then I had a friend in ministry Say hey, uh, i'm i'm planning on studying eschatology.

24:04

What do you think and I was just like well Just be sure to come out of the dark closet from time to time and interact with people and don't get lost in it

24:11

I said i'm gonna study apologetics and so i'm i'm a pastor, but the way that I teach and preach very apologetics, you know bent

24:18

And he's like, okay, so he started studying Um eschatology and it was just a matter of months.

24:24

He went from pre -mill He was all mill for maybe a week Then he was the post mill for the longest time and I remember he got and I would talk to him along the way

24:32

And one day he called me. He said jeremiah. I think i'm a heretic and I was like, whoa Back up there

24:38

And I was like, what are you talking about he goes I think I'm a full preterist and I said is that The heresy that denies the future coming of jesus the future resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things

24:51

And he said yeah, I can't refute it And i'm like dude It's okay to struggle with something but don't preach it.

24:59

You don't have to believe it. You can struggle with it And I remember at the time he told me well I I know if the problem is not with the word of god.

25:09

The problem is with me and he said I think I may just resign because I don't want to ruin people's lives and I was kind of like oh

25:15

There's a glimmer of hope here if he's at least thinking along those lines But it was just a matter of months until he did the full swing

25:21

He was actually pastoring a southern baptist church And I remember one of our last conversations

25:27

I said if you start preaching this You know what I have to do, right? And he said

25:32

I totally understand you have to warn people you have to follow your convictions and I just said it's not personal I said but don't do it man.

25:38

And if you do i'm gonna let everybody know So he did it And the director of his association, they're southern baptist

25:46

They I don't know how they called me, but they're just like jeremiah. What's full preterism? Why is it bad?

25:52

Um, can we set up a lunch with you? And I said absolutely I got a lot to share with you because i've been talking with this individual for a long time

25:59

And along the way I called up. Dr. Frost, which he may be joining us later. We'll see And i've had him just constantly explaining me to me the ins and outs because he was a major Speaker in the full preterist movement for a decade from about 2000 to 2010 around there so anyway, um

26:17

Started telling people about this church that's preaching it and it was just you know a handful of weeks until um

26:24

He convinced this church to leave the sbc the associate the associate the local association and the arkansas

26:31

Association and so he has totally converted this baptist church into a full preterist church

26:37

They're going to host a conference in arkansas in jonesborough and they got gary demar speaking at it and all the other full preterists

26:45

Like why this is in my front yard, you know Anyway, um i've been kind of the one people calling me up saying hey

26:52

My pastor is starting to say things like this It sounds a little weird. And so i've been really trying to be a voice of reason to say

26:59

Hey, this is a redefining of what our future blessed Hope has always been all the disagreements that the church has had for 2 000 years

27:08

You know the one thing andrew that they've agreed upon our blessed hope being future And I tell people that's not just good enough to say that only is saying that history is obviously affirmed this but I tell people

27:21

That full preterism fails historically Logically, so you'll see a little bit of internal critique and presuppositionalism going on there and it fails

27:29

Exegetically and so you remember my presentation was kind of a walkthrough of first corinthians 15 20 through 26 obviously within the broader framework of pauline's uh theology

27:41

But then also the the canonical context because I dealt with you know Multiple objections that full preterists will make in first corinthians 15.

27:50

So we might can touch on a few of those But yeah, um, and I learned this Um max king church of christ minister.

27:56

He was kind of the first one to have a full orbed um understanding of of full preterism and he called it covenantal eschatology and i'm like How about that this has its roots in none other than the church of christ

28:13

Yeah, so the thing is Yeah, I was gonna i was gonna eventually get to what's over your shoulder there

28:21

We'll get to them shortly. So, uh, let's see John asks a question for you

28:26

Apologize dog pre -millennialism post -millennialism or amillennialism Brother john i'm gonna answer it like this

28:35

He's pro millennial he's pro millennial if there's a millennium he's all for it I have a playlist on my channel of five sermons you know presentations

28:45

I did and the first one was a flower review of the three orthodox perspectives pre -mill all mill and post mill and then the next three was a

28:55

Positive presentation of each individual one because I can speak the lingo baby

29:00

And then number five was the death knell to hyper preterism, so guess where I landed for now andrew

29:08

I've landed all mill for the time for the time So what you're saying is you're really post mill, right

29:18

I say that because because all mill obviously right No, because all mill is believes there's there's no

29:26

Literal millennium, right, but you do believe That the millennium is figurative, but christ is returning at the end of that millennium right, so no post no, okay, so could we

29:42

Jeremiah, can we just agree you and I can we just agree that post mill is a confused on millennial position

29:51

I I like to tell people this pre -mill has everything downward trending Post mill has everything upward trending and all mill says and Righteousness are going to both increase until the end of the age.

30:05

No, I like it better. I'll mill just has nothing No, where's dr frost

30:14

I have my back here All right, so so let's get into some definitions of terms

30:21

For folks who don't who there's maybe people listening first time they're saying I have no idea what full preterism is

30:28

How do people come to that conclusion now? first of all I do want to point out for folks Something that you did say because this is how we we try to encourage people to do here on on this is to educate people on our apologetics

30:42

Folks did you hear what jeremiah said a bit ago is that he was able to Articulate different views even in the ones he does not hold to That is what we always have to do.

30:53

We have to be able to articulate someone else's position if you think back to the guy that with the affirming christianity the problem he had was

31:02

We wanted to define terms so that we could properly represent him and he didn't like the fact that the definitions

31:09

Didn't match the bible right? So But you have to be able to properly articulate

31:17

Someone else's view especially before you're going to debate them All right, can I chime in with something real quick?

31:23

Sure. I remember you were debating somebody that was very hostile to calvinism And I believe you might have brought this up in which one

31:31

Yeah The the time where the guy you were leading him through each five points and he he was like, oh,

31:38

I actually believed all that Yeah, I just remember thinking you get you got to know the opposition or the so -called opposition

31:45

This is why people should not debate like don't debate against calvinism when you're actually a calvinist.

31:50

You just don't understand the definition Andrew is going to ask you some questions and then he's going to say

31:57

You are a calvinist God saves yes.

32:03

Yeah So So jeremiah, I do have a question as it relates to kind of what andrew was saying as how one arrives at the full preterist position

32:14

Because what i've noticed Is and i've noticed this with specifically two prominent men, uh

32:23

Is that you kind of get there arrive there from the post mill position? And I and I look at david chilton, right?

32:31

Because he was a post mill. He's written some Works that post mills will use uh his commentaries on on revelation

32:40

And then by the end of his life, he was a full preterist And then gary demar who was actually not a full preterist

32:48

But when david chilton became one and he was asked to call david chilton back from that And now he ends up being one.

32:57

So it seems like evidence not to be post mill see this Look where at least no, no

33:04

We should clarify something because you mentioned it demar, uh earlier, too so in that podcast

33:11

Uh that where you were you mentioned demar was on I think it was a canon press podcast

33:17

My understanding that he was removed from that Yeah, and so when when you brought that up about that podcast he had been removed from there people had commented to me when

33:28

I Said when I asked something about that, um So I guess it was so that's probably a good thing that they removed him.

33:36

But yeah, so so jeremiah, how how do people? Come to we'll first give the definition like what is full preterism?

33:47

Then how do people come to this conclusion? Yeah So full preterism is being distinguished from partial preterism

33:55

And full preterism says all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled up to 70 a .d

34:01

with the destruction of the temple And like I said partial preterist would see a lot of things in the past fulfillments

34:08

Prater preterism means past past fulfillment and all christians believe that some things have happened in the past the virgin birth

34:15

Jesus being the suffering servant died on the cross for our sins. That's prater in our past And so the question is, you know

34:22

What things are we going to put in the box that were past and then what are we going to put in the box? That is our future our future blessed

34:28

Hope that you know god promises to to deliver us from this sin cursed world and so forth So full preterism says that all of including the the second coming of jesus.

34:37

Oh, well, that was 70 a .d And oh, yeah, that was spiritual And so it's just wild because it has to reinterpret so many clear passages that speak to that But then the resurrection of the dead something that we would all the different Eschatological positions that agree on are in our future a part of our blessed hope.

34:53

Nope the resurrection of the dead There's a few different ways. The full preterist will define that they don't agree On a lot of these things we're talking about the nature some of them think that christ bodily returned in 70 a .d

35:04

So they can't even agree. And then the last one is that this is the new andrew This is the new heavens and new earth in its fully consummated form as you see it right now

35:14

And that's why full preterism only has about six followers, uh, because i'm looking around it don't mean that this is it

35:23

This this is it, huh? This is it. Can I trade this one in? Folks are listening on the podcast.

35:29

You have a sign over your left shoulder and nicely lit up You know, which you never want to have a bright light behind you and your your podcast you need a brighter light in front

35:41

But what does it say? It said it don't mean that And me tell you why

35:47

I put that there because you will hear that from the church of christ and the full preterist when you're like Hey, we're justified by faith and now we have peace with god and they're gonna be like it don't mean that you gotta be baptized

35:58

Um, and the full preterist we're gonna say hey, jesus is gonna come at the end to restore all things

36:03

And they're gonna be like it don't mean that Uh, you know what it said before that it said the flower patch kids and in reference to Layton flowers in the crew

36:16

Which by the way, I enjoyed getting to meet layton at the white calvinism conference I was like, dude,

36:23

I think you went to the wrong place. Oh, no, no, no, no, no He was gathering

36:29

Material for the rest of the year i'm waiting, you know, he's still on his kick about You know james white i'm waiting to see when he's going to start like Dealing with the things that we said in the conference

36:43

Yeah, although maybe he can't deal with that so he's just ignoring it You know, he was a nice guy.

36:49

I actually I actually enjoyed him Yeah, and I went to texas to watch the showdown between him and dr

36:56

White on john 644 and how it don't mean that uh And so I it's funny because I was in line to just take a selfie with layton

37:05

And I was in line. He saw me goes everybody. It's a calvinist and I was like layton Why are you trying to help me like that man?

37:11

So he recognized me Well, that's good so you asked a question earlier though what persuades people into full preterism

37:23

There's a number of verses that to the undiscerning And the unknowing that you could see how they build a case like there is a case to be made now if you know

37:32

Anything about biblical theology and systematic theology and oh my goodness

37:38

Context for proof texts then you can see that it's all a house of cards and it's not hard to poke holes

37:44

I mean When they start denying that spiritual warfare is for today If you do have the indwelling holy spirit,

37:51

I mean the the heresy detector is going to be just doing this the whole time That's why it's a slow growing movement um, you know, it does it and I say growing

38:01

I think the internet just allows them to be able to congregate and that's why Well, it does with every group

38:07

But I mean when is this when has full preterism kind of wins is relatively new when when did it start?

38:14

So max king, uh, he wrote a two -volume set on the return of christ and the resurrection And I think volume one was the early 70s

38:21

No, it was maybe the early 80s and I know volume two came out in 87 And I think that's probably the magnus opus where he has written the most content on Covenantal eschatology, but that was the hyper preterist view

38:38

So it's relatively new. Um, what's the arguments that they make? Yeah So I think what what hooks people in is the quote -unquote timing indicators the verses that say

38:49

Such and such will happen soon The the time is at hand or jesus is coming quickly and so by Reason of inference they say okay first audience relevance.

39:03

What's the thing that would answer that question the best? And you know, they'll go to all of it discourse to talk about this generation

39:10

And so they build a case of saying well 70 ad seems to check all the boxes and so that's that's usually how they

39:20

They they get they get you they talk about the timing indicators and if you're all mill Post mill pre -mill you better have a good response for that or they'll just start wrecking shop.

39:31

And so it's the timing indicators Now i'm not picking on post mill But this is something that they leech off of post mill and I tell so I interviewed doug wilson i've interviewed

39:41

I've had a number of guests on my channel on talking about hyper preterism and especially how post mill can distinguish themselves confidently boldly and with clarity from Hyper preterism, you know what

39:54

I mean? But there's something that is built in to post mill not all post mill.

39:59

So i'd i'd be curious to to hear your thoughts in a second This is something that is kind of new with post mill not with ken gentry and a lot of those other historic post mill positions

40:11

Is how you define this age and the age to come? Unfortunately in my opinion, this is doug wilson's view

40:18

This is actually jeff durbin's view and I think this was rc sproles view And like I said, i'm fine with someone holding this.

40:25

I just want to throw out the cautions For the record. It's not rc sproles view today. Just saying. Oh, did he end up pre -mill?

40:33

He ended pre -mill In heaven Hey, he's a reformed baptist now too, so that's true

40:42

He got baptism figured out Um, okay, so I want to know

40:48

Come so drew So drew I want to I want to hear your thoughts on this but Um, we'll just go with doug wilson

40:58

Uh when he wrote he's written on this when a man comes around or something like that And he defines this age and the age to come like this.

41:06

This age is the jewish aeon This is the jewish age that terminated in 70 a .d

41:13

And the age to come is kind of this golden age where the world's going to be christianized and trust me

41:19

I am The first person to say hey if postmall is right, praise god Like i'm excited if that's right if pre -mill dispensational

41:27

Views right and we get wrapped it up. Praise god. Like I those are things that don't make me mad, you know

41:34

But in doug wilson's view is that the age to come is a golden age that transitions into christ uh parisia, right

41:42

So what's what's happened? And I say it like this just to let people know that there's a gravity here that I want to stress

41:49

There's a redefining Of what historically this age and the age to come has always been

41:55

And it does all the heavy lifting that doug wilson and all them want Anyway, I would contend this age and the age to come is you have this temporal age

42:03

That began with adam in the fall and this temporal perishing perishing age is going to continue until christ's second return 80 percent and I might even say 85 percent the full predator's argument need that to be in in effect that this age really terminated in 70 ad

42:22

The reason why that's so scary Is because when you read the olivet discourse what happens at the end of the age that jesus said and lo i'll be with you

42:30

Into even to the end of the age the second coming and this is why a lot of post mill have differing views on the

42:37

Um the olivet discourse and the book of revelation because and and I would lean partial predator

42:42

So i'm over here saying like i'm in y 'all's world a little bit with with trying to parse these things out but even ken drantry is like man, we can't give that to the full predatorist because When sam frost joins us, hopefully here in a little bit.

42:55

He told me there's two things. We can't give the full predators We can't give them the farm aka This age and the age to come and we can't give them the livestock meaning that second peter chapter three

43:05

Was fulfilled in 70 18 you you've made their case for them if you can see those points.

43:12

So what do you think drew? Yeah, so I don't think you're being too harsh. So when you mentioned second peter chapter three

43:19

Um, you're talking about the elements of this world will burn away Yeah, so because i've heard i've heard gary demar talking about that and when every time

43:30

That term element is used. It means the elementary teachings And philosophies those things are passed away

43:38

Now I would disagree with demar's teaching because there are indicators within the text

43:44

That seem to indicate it's speaking about the actual world Not not just a philosophy or a teaching um, but I you know,

43:55

I think What you said about the age and age to come is something I hadn't thought of right the temporal age

44:01

And then when christ comes I think you know I would have to look into that more but where I line up right now would be somewhere like with a ken gentry

44:11

Because I mean his his comment his commentary that's coming out is called the great divorce or the divorce of israel but he's talking he's he's talking about where in 70 ad it was basically

44:24

The symbolic stoning of the adulterous wife that was israel and it was the end of that age

44:31

And then the age to come is the one of the bride of christ that goes forth This is why if you just say this temporal age and the eternal age

44:40

It does all the heavy lifting because this perishing age includes both the jewish age and the gentile age

44:46

I'm, just saying you already get that if you stay consistent with what paul defines is this age and age to come

44:52

And what jesus in the god jesus in the gospels talks about during this age You're going to have things like marriage

44:59

Celebrations and things are going to continue as they are and paul in first corinthians, especially makes a strong case that what's important in this

45:09

Evil perishing age is false teaching and this is going to continue And in first corinthians 15 where god is all in all everything gets summed up Is not the author of confusion

45:21

In fact, all of history is his story of redemption being worked out and there's resolve

45:26

There's the evil there's sin. There's death and it gets crushed the last enemy to be destroyed is death

45:33

Right, and so i'm just saying to the the post mill i'm saying do that hashtag post mill theonomy go

45:40

You know, you know preach to the rooftops, but don't give the full preterist this age in the age to come so Yeah This and it may just be a good question to ask for sam when he comes on because he was full preterist for a while and wrote on it and But I the one passage

45:57

When it comes to discussing end times that I go to is daniel chapter nine

46:03

Yeah, and and the reason being is because he gives a very clear timeline. It's the only

46:09

The only passage we have in scripture Where we get like this really clear timeline Uh, but it's not as clear as some want to make it right so so he he says this is deuteronomy.

46:20

I'm, sorry daniel Uh 924. He says seven 70 weeks and and weeks.

46:26

There's just it means sevens So we all we understand it as seven seven year periods

46:32

That's that's not unusual within judaism to judge everything or to measure things by sevens

46:38

Uh by the sabbath Okay as a unit of time So it's

46:44

The fact that it says weeks doesn't mean it's it's a literal week the way we understand it Think of it as it could be a seven -year period

46:53

So 77s have been decreed and he lists here six things are going to happen right

47:00

Uh, it's going to be for your people in your holy city one to to finish the transgression

47:09

It's two to make an end of sin Three to make atonement for iniquity four to bring an everlasting righteousness five to seal up the vision of prophecy

47:20

And six to anoint the holy place. So these are six things that we would see at the end of this 77 year period right and and so I I find a lot of people that will do this

47:37

We look at this and it says so that uh, so you are now uh, so that you know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild jerusalem until messiah

47:52

There will be seven weeks And 62 weeks

47:59

And it will be built again in the plaza in the moat even to the distress now

48:07

When we look historically, right? Seven weeks the 48 years and then there's a second period of 434 years

48:17

And you can look there's there were three deportations from israel okay, so so babylon came in three separate times and you took daniel and some of them in the first round and And eventually by round three took most of of israel

48:34

Right as as captive Uh, so there were also three decrees And so the question becomes which decree is the the right one and you know

48:42

Some make a point of saying there were three Deportations and three decrees because each one was a 70 -year period

48:49

Yeah, I don't think I mean daniel lived through that 70 -year period, but I don't think most of them did but But it is clear that there is a 49 year period that many see as the decree from cyrus to the building of uh, you know the temple and of the the wall around the city so That's something that can be measured in time

49:14

You can then take the 400 the next You know 434 year period So you can basically look from the decree of cyrus whichever decree you look at it either brings you to several years before christ

49:28

Some have it as the day that christ, uh was born and some have it as the day that christ uh wrote in on the donkey the the ending of this period

49:40

But we can we we know Right that that's like most people take these first 60, uh 69 weeks as as literal years

49:54

Right and so for the preterist Who who's believing everything finished up and and and you know you being?

50:02

A millennial i'd be curious with your view with it as well because I look at this and so you have a

50:09

A connection to time wise but then in verse 26, it says then after 62 weeks the messiah will be cut off Okay, we we know when that happened, right?

50:19

and nothing, uh and have nothing And the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

50:28

Now we know that happened in 70 ad Right christ was crucified in the 30s.

50:35

So you're talking you know a 37 to year period

50:40

Of difference right now. I could be wrong, but I don't think 37 equals 7.

50:46

I I could be wrong my math is Good, but maybe maybe just not that good and so I look at this and see that he allows for a

50:57

A a period that here this happens this after the 62 weeks messiah is cut off verse 27.

51:04

He then says And he will make a covenant Uh for for the one week, so it looks like he in verse 27.

51:12

He doesn't use a time indicator So for as a pre -millennialist i'm going to see all this as literal

51:18

But i'm going to see a gap between verse 26 and 27 where he says and so we could

51:24

It's still going to be fulfilled just not in the time order that the first ones were but from the

51:29

From a full preterist view where they think everything is 70 ad and and you know

51:35

Someone was commenting about that twitter handle. Um, or is it drew you started here? It is d d said perusea is a reference to the second coming of christ how ironic well actually not

51:45

Because it was perusea 70 So he's he's saying that that was it 70 ad was was it?

51:53

Um, so when I look at this i'm looking at it and going okay, so you got up to Christ and you got 37 years to 70 ad

52:02

How is that the seven years? Question one question two is do they make the argument that all six of these things in verse 24 have are done

52:13

So those are two questions for you Yeah, so the full preterist everything's spiritual

52:19

So In a minute i've been you know keeping tabs on these full preterist guys and something that they think is a slam dunk argument

52:27

Is they say they'll say things like jeremiah was is the law fulfilled in christ Answers.

52:32

Yes And they're like well when the law is fulfilled and done away with so is death and they have a few verses that they say

52:40

Um jump in the head a little bit aren't they? Yeah, but their whole thing is Since the law is fulfilled and done away with Then death is no more and it's got to be spiritual but just because it's fulfilled doesn't mean it's done away with Yeah, I did not know that this was going to be their argument when

52:59

I chose that intro to the show today From the guy that we had on years ago where he he said hey

53:07

No, if we're in christ, we're not under the law. We could we could sleep with a prostitute and it's okay Right.

53:13

So is is are they going they going that far? So you got to think full preterist is a mixed bag

53:19

You can get israel only us where this was only for israel and everybody's a universalist now and then you have the gary demar crowd this is what dr frost was for a decade a

53:30

Fulfilled eschatology that still can be applied today It's not written to you but written for you is kind of how they they wiggle through and so they're trying to make application

53:42

To mail that's not ours And so You know, even though there's no more spiritual warfare and things like that The gary demar crowd is going to say we get principles of how we are to live our life

53:54

And so I think I think it's just inconsistent all over the board But yeah, I think it's a terrible argument to say since the law was fulfilled in christ therefore

54:03

Um death is is done away. That's the whole argument at first corinthians 15 And i'm like you've missed what jesus did at the cross

54:11

He not only paid the penalty of the law, right? But he also crushed the power of sin and death by his resurrection

54:21

And what gary demar is saying is well first corinthians 15 can't be talking about physical death because christians still died

54:28

Jesus did a pretty poor job if he defeated physical death And I literally you listen to my presentation and remember i've i mocked.

54:37

Um Demar really hard i'm like christians Don't stay Criticized you didn't mock you

54:43

I criticized it hard because i'm like dude, you know better quit saying it don't mean that you know

54:51

I mean and I do take personal offense when our blessed hope is getting redefined and some gnostic second coming at 7 a .d

54:59

And uh, the resurrection of the dead was really corporate old testament corporate body from hades now into the heavenlies

55:07

And you know i'm just saying look we are human beings that are both physical and Spiritual and so that's what they're trying to do is separate those completely different And they don't have an apologetic or reason why physical death happens

55:20

It just always has and it was just part of the the creation design wanted to say something else pertaining to daniel nine

55:26

You might find this interesting. I'm going to tell you a short story I'm going to show you the book that broke my pre -millennial eschatology.

55:33

You ready? I want you to notice he's not holding the bible So this was so I was getting ready to debate two roman catholics i'll show you what convinced me of of Of pre -millennialism, this is called the holy bible

55:50

Is that the johnny mack study bible there? No, this is this is a uh, this is an extra large print

55:56

Yeah, this is a post -tenorist lux bound nasb Feels so nice.

56:04

Is that like the johnny cash version that no no I heard about that. Johnny cash one.

56:09

It was like, oh, I want to I want to see that All right, andrew, so I was studying to debate two roman catholics on sola scriptura

56:17

Peter d williams was the first gentleman who's kind of an og that debated dr White about a decade ago and then joe heschmeyer.

56:24

He's now one of catholic answers leading apologists And so me and my friend we're like, okay, we can't make a case that just says, you know, all scriptures

56:35

God breathe they're so ready for that angle and I told my buddy I said I want to try and I want to be consistent and I want you want to be truthful and It's like if I want

56:42

I want to make a type of transcendental argument for sola scriptura because we know Sola scriptura has something contained within it since it's an epistemology

56:51

That bears witness to the truth and I knew where I was going because a lot of times my sign will say

56:57

Uh john 1717 father sanctified them the truth your word is truth And so it's the perspicuity of sola scriptura

57:04

That's unique to our position that rome says it don't mean that you need us to interpret the scripture for you

57:10

You know, I want to interrupt for one second because I want the audience to hear son that you said son I like to stress here.

57:16

Okay right, so you're going up against The roman catholics and you do not want to use the argument that they're already used to answering

57:27

Right. This is how we do apologetics folks Don't Don't just go with what they're ready to answer and and they've already they don't even think about it they have a canned answer that someone gave them and What jeremiah is saying is he wanted them to actually?

57:44

think And to do that you have to come about it with a different perspective. So so We do this show not just to do apologetics when we do debates or things like that But to teach you guys how to do it.

57:55

So that's why I wanted to emphasize What jeremiah just said because what he did what he just said is what we try to train everyone to do here, right?

58:03

Think of a different way don't just take The james white argument that you heard when he was using it that the the catholic is ready for an answer for and that's what they're using to study

58:13

Yes, exactly You have to know their position well enough to know something they're not ready for I mean when

58:21

I when I studied Witnesses I got their book reasoning the scriptures Which is their way of answering christians

58:29

One thing I never did is made an argument that was in there ever Because they already got a pre -canned answer.

58:37

They just look at that and read it I want something they haven't thought of that's what you did. So Continue, but I just want to highlight that for the audience and when

58:46

I say a transcendental argument I want to bring an argument that says that something is necessary that comes pre

58:53

The human experience so even if you have an objection to the argument that's presupposing certain principles

59:00

Of reason rationality predication and all the rest and so when you're making a transcendental case

59:06

Now you have to invoke an entire worldview critique And so they can't just piecemeal say well show me a verse that says scripture is the the only infallible

59:17

You know book i'm over here saying. Oh, you want the golden index? That's not that's not how we're arguing

59:23

We're saying that without god's perspicuous Revealed word you can't know anything at all

59:29

So that yes that means the written word and it's also rhema what he spoke And this is the the second person in the godhead who exegeted the father

59:38

So i'm just saying it's a full orb look and before I get into this book that broke my eschatology and I tell people because I was really committed a lot of people are really committed to their eschatology

59:48

And I get it like your heart almost has to be receptive to kind of thinking about it from different angles

59:54

And sometimes that's hard and I that's why i'm the most charitable person when it comes to eschatology

59:59

But the line for me is full predators and you don't go there. Hey, i'm charitable too. That's why i'm on this with andrew

01:00:06

Yeah, well you had you had the discussion with with jim osmond That was good but I I agree with what you're saying there jeremiah there is like So so we're saying and I should

01:00:16

I should bring up the twitter because this is so on twitter Uh, we mentioned jeffrey rice here. So he had a comment if I can find it now

01:00:23

Sam is in the comments, by the way, sam frost Oh, okay. Well Tell him to join the link the link is in his uh, jeremiah said you're in the wrong place so So here's what uh post -tenorist lux in other words jeffrey rice said on twitter when we asked the question

01:00:42

Is full preterism heresy or not? He says yes Full preterism is heretical whitewashed

01:00:51

Gnosticism that denies the faith and places one outside christianity and in danger of eternal judgment

01:00:59

You know, I really wish jeffrey rice would stop beating around the bush Right get to the point Yeah, I mean he just never gets to his point

01:01:08

You know, it's hard to really know what he believes, you know, you know Jeremiah said something when he was talking about his preparation just before you do let me bring in dr.

01:01:18

Frost and let him introduce himself Um, how are you just got off another podcast with lucas

01:01:26

That's what we heard Obviously obviously you don't know how to read in your spare time.

01:01:33

I I can see that Why don't you get it? Why don't you get some books? Yeah, and they go all the way back to all around I see

01:01:41

You know, but but here's the difference. I I he may not have as big of a library as you know, uh

01:01:48

Rick warren if you saw his video of his library, but there's a big difference between dr.

01:01:54

Frost's library and rick warren's The books in dr. Frost's library are red Yes Um andrew you care if I sum up quickly how this whole thing broke my eschatology

01:02:11

Sure because that means you get to cut off drew and I always like when people do that. Oh my bad you go. Oh, Mr.

01:02:16

Oh, look at this here. Mr. Tracy is saying Andrew is jealous of the books actually. Um I my my library was at one point an extensive library.

01:02:27

Yeah, my library was Dr. Dr. Frost dropped. I'll come back in my library at one point was 10 000 volumes

01:02:34

I've i've cut it down. Uh, I cut it down to 8 000. I think i'm down to Roughly 6 000 and I got about another 2 500 that i'm looking to sell.

01:02:46

So yeah I've invested in a digital library. Well, i'm like, oh I have endless space there.

01:02:51

Well, that's where andrew's really thrives Would you would you like to so you have logos?

01:02:58

um Yes, so so how many books are in your library in logos? So we our church inherited about I think fifteen thousand dollars worth of books

01:03:09

So I don't remember the exact number but I remember you've talked about this on one of your past episodes Yeah, I i'm close to 60 000 volumes

01:03:19

That's so awesome how you get your hands in both realms though that to me that's yeah Yeah, well i've been working on it since well probably before you were born.

01:03:28

Oh Yeah, probably so Um So drew before I could tell you my story, what were you gonna end?

01:03:37

Yeah, so one of the things that I noticed was You mentioned that the catholics they were looking for kind of this golden index, right point to this

01:03:46

Tell me and what that brought me to Was when erasmus was doing his translations of the new testament

01:03:55

And what erasmus didn't include in his first two volumes Was what they called the trinitarian formula right first john 5 7

01:04:04

And he said he they said well, why didn't you include that and he said well I don't have a manuscript that actually has it

01:04:10

And so what did they do they made one to order and so he put it in under protest, right? But that's one of those things where they said we need to have a verse that says this right, right, right

01:04:22

Uh, so you know the short short end of Kind of the transcendental argument for sola scriptura is thy word is truth

01:04:32

Meaning the word of god whether it's rhema or inscripturated. That's the precipium of truth itself.

01:04:37

That's eternal because god himself Has a word that's been eternal between father son and spirit.

01:04:44

So it's transcendental. It's necessary. It's perspicuous to the imago de Um, the scripture cannot be broken so those kind of combo verses and john's gospel kind of make that case so I got this book the canon of scripture a presuppositional study by philip kaiser

01:05:02

And in his thesis, he wanted to answer the roman catholic's charge of show us the golden index and he says oh we can

01:05:10

And everybody's like what? I read his I read his thesis He said the old testament predicted when god would speak and when god would not speak it goes on to say amos hosea a few old testament books predicted the intertestamental period the 400 years of silence and so you kind of have to Understand a little history with that.

01:05:29

But you know the passage I believe it's an amos that just talks about god will Have a famine not in food, but in no longer revealing his word or giving a knowledge or prophetic word

01:05:41

And so that was the first prediction and that already Rules out roman catholicism that derives a lot of their dudo canonical books from that 400 years of silence

01:05:51

So that's that was not god giving a word i'm going to pause there I'll tell you here in a second of how he says

01:05:58

After a certain point god is no longer going to give a revelatory word. We'll just say after the first century

01:06:04

So now if he's true and can build his case of saying god's no longer going to speak in a revelatory sense

01:06:10

Well, this doubly knocks out roman catholicism with their apostolic secession This rules out the greek orthodox similar, you know principles there this this rules out mormonism with their living prophet

01:06:22

This rules out islam because they had a living prophet and this would kind of you know

01:06:27

Kick out a continuationist mindset because god is no longer giving a revelatory word. And so what kaiser did?

01:06:34

Is he he goes to a combo of isaiah 8 And daniel 9 and you know those six things that you were listing.

01:06:41

He made a case that said To to seal up both vision and prophet and he related it to the destruction of the sanctuary

01:06:51

And I just thought wow, you know i'm pre -mill. So to me, you know Future temple has to get rebuilt and it's got to be a future, you know, seven years

01:07:00

And I said but if i'm understanding what he is saying He is saying after the destruction of the temple god is no longer going to give a revelatory word

01:07:08

This calls for an earlier writing of revelation and like dr Frost has said, you know, there's a case to be made for that But if your eschatology depends on it, then you probably need to go back

01:07:18

Consider some more things. But anyway, I just thought in terms of sola scriptura that Kicks everybody else in the teeth, you know what

01:07:27

I mean? Because everybody that comes after the structure in the temple that ain't from god. It don't mean that So I remember andrew

01:07:35

I called the pastor I served with and I said I don't think i'm pre -mill anymore And you know what? He said he says I thought he says

01:07:40

I told you that would happen. So we had a good laugh That's good. Um, so Andrew mentioned the discussion that I had with jim osmond and in towards the end of that discussion.

01:07:51

We actually Justin peters came on and we actually opened up daniel chapter 9 and I pulled up that very thing that you just said

01:07:59

And I said I said if you believe that This hasn't been fulfilled then you still then you might as well just admit you're a continuationist because you still believe in continued prophecy but uh, but besides that i'm gonna have to hop off but to respond to andrew's uh,

01:08:16

Daniel chapter 9. I did a youtube video where I go through I walked through daniel 70 weeks

01:08:22

So feel free to give it a listen. Let me know your thoughts People know where to oh, it's just my name

01:08:29

I think uh, you probably hate my take on daniel 9 But uh, it's just my name drew vanita.

01:08:38

Um, I think I think that's what it is. I don't remember He's got this he's totally into the branding and the you know platform building

01:08:46

Even know the name of his own youtube channel. I'm the absolute worst at marketing my podcasts or anything that i'm the worst

01:08:56

No, no, there's I mean you got you got guys like justin peters who names his ministry, uh, justin peters ministry because he's creative so, you know

01:09:08

But i'm gonna hop off i'm gonna So not meeting you drew's gonna get going next week drew and I will be tackling first timothy 2 uh, we will be reviewing a podcast from uh,

01:09:23

Was it alabaster jar? I think was the name of the podcast where they take a little bit of a different view of first timothy

01:09:29

Two to justify women Preaching which I now know from that email from the beginning of the show.

01:09:35

I really believe in women preachers Yeah How dare you yeah but i'm gonna finish uh

01:09:43

Listening to the show tomorrow. Um, so i'm gonna be praying for you guys, uh for the rest of the show

01:09:49

Uh, and I look forward to listening to it. So but i'll see you guys. Thanks drew. All right. Thanks So dr frost if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to the audience so people could

01:10:00

Know a little bit about who you are and your background. We we kind of mentioned a little that you were

01:10:06

Holding at one point to full preterism um, and so if you want to share how you got into it how

01:10:13

You got out of it and why you blame jeremiah for Debates that you have

01:10:20

All this new podcast so i've got to start my own podcast thing I don't have to because like two or three times a week people are asking me to come on their podcast

01:10:29

I don't have to do this then. This is great so, uh No, I just the

01:10:37

Not just dabbling in full preterism, uh, you know sold the business Uh moved my family started the church

01:10:44

Basically devoted everything to it. I bought I believed in what? the fundamental

01:10:50

Points of it are and that is all prophecy Uh was fulfilled daniel nine figures into that if you go a 78 e route

01:10:57

I don't make daniel nine deals with 70 ad but that's me. So um So, you know going that route, um the preterist route

01:11:05

I just went all the way with the full preterist route because Seemed to me that it was very difficult to maintain

01:11:12

That 98 percent of prophecy was fulfilled in 70 ad and two percent weren't

01:11:19

So at that I just went the whole route and the only real Uh, the only massive major argument that was against that were the creeds and confessions of the church in the history of church nobody believed in resurrection of the dead of 70 ad and this any other

01:11:35

So, uh that launched the book misplaced hope which tim and doug or max king

01:11:41

Published max king was the biggest full preterist out there in the 70s 80s and 90s

01:11:49

He he was the biggest voice That was out was max king Uh, there were a lot of little smaller ones

01:11:57

But nothing was nobody was doing what like max king was doing and then from max you got ed stephens

01:12:04

And then you got a don preston. So don preston today Would be the second largest voice that's out there king's outfit is still going on with living presence

01:12:13

But he doesn't associate himself with preterism or any of that kind of even though he's full preterist But they're off into a universalist whole other they went a whole other route

01:12:21

So that would be the first large wing of it I spoke with king was friends with tim and and doug and spoke at their conferences.

01:12:28

That'd be the first wing Of of major movement of false preterism

01:12:33

And then the second one would be the covenant body view which grew out of max king's work But wanted to remain, uh evangelical

01:12:41

And that would be the don preston group. That would be that group. That's probably the largest Uh, it's tough to say between king's group and what preston and mike sullivan represent and then there's the uh, and I throw ward finley in that middle group, then there's the

01:13:01

Uh israel only group. This is a growing little but it's again It's a group that's growing off of full preterism and uh

01:13:11

They just jettison the entire thing They don't go to church. They don't have pastors.

01:13:16

They don't do baptism Now what's interesting is mike sullivan who's in the second group. He doesn't do baptism or lord's table either so there's these three groups

01:13:25

I throw under the bus of Uh hyper preterism or full preterist.

01:13:30

I also throw the 98 percenters in there, too So david chilton, he was a full preterist gary demar full preterist doug wilson

01:13:39

He Can you define what you mean when you say the 98 percenters Uh, 98 of the book of revelation and all of the bible is fulfilled by the time of 70 a .d

01:13:49

The only thing that you've got left out is the end of the world the second coming and the resurrection of the dead That's about it

01:13:56

The rest of it. It's all done Every bit of it. It's anything you mentioned the book of revelation.

01:14:02

That's 70 a .d So clearly they're going to take a view that seven that book of revelation was written before 70

01:14:11

Not in the 90s Yeah, that's a have to they that's a that that's another thing

01:14:18

It makes me uncomfortable because the debates on both sides of the issue are very very good which tells me as a scholar

01:14:25

That to make this issue of dating a dogma By which my view can only work if this dating is true if you take that away the

01:14:37

You run into problems But the problem for that is is that there are very very good

01:14:43

Arguments that meet all of the requirements of what is a good argument Yeah On the late night side.

01:14:50

That's the problem there. So my view is I can go either way 70 or 90 The date is not a big factor for me, but for pluralism you must have a pre -70 ad date

01:15:02

You have to yeah because it because if not Then if the temple is already destroyed and he's saying this is future then it's then game over for full preterist.

01:15:12

So So yeah, I mean, yeah, let me say as a scott again. There's good Arguments linguistic arguments historic semantics all that all the things

01:15:22

And and for the audience I want to make a distinction for folks because i've i've said Multiple times on this show when we deal with different religions different cults

01:15:32

Everyone has a way of answering Arguments that are made every cult can answer whatever whatever you throw at them

01:15:40

Especially if it's their common things they find a they find a life -saving device, right?

01:15:46

That's what would um, Jason lyle would refer to it, you know Rescuing device.

01:15:53

Yeah, they're gonna have a rescuing device for their system and It may be super creative Oh, I mean

01:16:01

I i've shared on this show before when I had a jewish jewish guy that wanted to convert me back to judaism and you know wanted to go for dinner and he says but you you have to understand that only the rabbis can have an answer to the difficult things of the bible and The difficult thing he wanted to harp on was that david could not have sinned david could not have have

01:16:25

Uh Because he was a prophet. He was a man after god's own heart he couldn't have sinned and so his argument was that uh, david never actually

01:16:36

Had an adulterous relationship with basti but what happened was uriah divorced her

01:16:42

And the reason that that that david brings him back Home from the war

01:16:48

And sends to send him to his who to his ex -wife is to prove

01:16:54

Like the reason that that uriah didn't go to to basheba was because he was no longer married to her

01:17:01

And so so they come up with this whole thing and they they will have a system that works everything out

01:17:07

Okay, that's not mainline judaism that teaches that though the commentaries that I have of the jps Would not agree with that.

01:17:13

Yeah. No this I don't know any rabbis that would It's not

01:17:21

See what happened was Yeah, but but what what pat what dr frost is saying is different than that Okay, and I want you to to notice that difference

01:17:31

The difference between okay. I have a a life -saving device or a rescuing device to save the system

01:17:37

Uh what what islam would call taqiyah where you can lie to protect the faith? What dr frost is talking about is the fact that you can

01:17:48

Look at a system and say okay The the dating of revelation it could be before 70 a .d.

01:17:54

It could be after there is good Evidence for both is what he's saying. He's not saying let me come up with something that saves my position

01:18:03

He's saying I can look at the evidence and be honest with it and say Both have their merits.

01:18:09

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know when it was Yeah And I say that as a scholar that's heavily researched the issue and I It's like being in a courtroom it's like well,

01:18:22

I can't reach a a verdict here I don't I don't have all the information that I would love to have

01:18:30

Yeah So i'm indifferent So we got a question that that's in here for you.

01:18:36

Jeremiah was he raised this. Yeah. Jeremiah. Go ahead Yeah, so we yeah, you may have a certain time you want to do this

01:18:44

But we have sam and I have an announcement and a graphic we'd like to show your audience when you're ready

01:18:49

He's I love this about jeremiah is that this guy is holy now. I'm like Last said he's the worst promoter in the world as I am.

01:18:57

I'm horrible. I would say, you know, sam frost ministries Oh, no. No. Yeah on the other hand. This guy is like He's he's got it ready.

01:19:06

You want you want to see how ready he is? Here it is. Boom Yeah, I love it That's This debate will take place on may 3rd.

01:19:16

I believe that's a friday evening at 6 A preterist debate sam frost versus word word for only

01:19:23

Family yeah, and it'll be on The proposition is the scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead was at 70 a .d

01:19:33

yeah, and the reason why we wanted to do that is because Um don preston debated chris date and all the full preterist crowd were whining about how bad it was

01:19:42

So we got to do one better And well, especially with chris date because he doesn't even believe in a in a literal eternal punishment, so Well, don't say anything sam.

01:19:52

Don't say it down with i'm with andrew on this one. Like you can't deny that Yeah, you know

01:20:00

I learned a lot from chris date chris is like late in flowers he's a really nice guy that's very wrong Um So I was going to also say ward finley interviewed doug wilson recently and that caused a whole storm

01:20:17

Because he got He got he got doug to admit Let me just ask a question.

01:20:23

Was that storm filled with frost just yes Absolutely it was But he got doug wilson to admit that full preterist

01:20:33

Heretics would be welcome to the table at his church Really? Yeah, because sam posted that and I was just like, oh it hurts because you can come up with all the reasons to justify it, but If I was a full predator,

01:20:47

I heard that from doug wilson. I would have been like We've arrived

01:20:53

Yeah, do you think you think you'd be more happy to learn that doug? Let you come to table or knowing that gary demar has essentially jumped all of it everything now

01:21:02

It's like I got david chilton. I got gary demar now. I got doug wilson. Fantastic All I need is two or three witnesses.

01:21:08

I got them I'm, great. We're good So what you gotta remember sam is you can't quote extra biblical sources in our upcoming debate.

01:21:17

That's uh, that would be a no No, i've been told Dr. Talbot who

01:21:24

May he rest in peace When I was working with him going through his degrees and then i'm doing the hebrew program and he would let me do these programs and stuff put together programs for the

01:21:34

The seminary so He would not allow me ever preach from the pulpit

01:21:42

And he would not partake of the table when he came once and we had a communion thing or something He would not partake up because we were we were full predator.

01:21:49

He would never do that ever Your heretics, I love you sam, but you're a heretic

01:21:57

So we we had a couple questions that came in let me give let me give you this one from matt he says

01:22:02

What do partial preterists do with matthew 24 29 to 30

01:22:11

To 31 so let's let's pull that up here Um, I don't know if you have that offhand, but I will read it.

01:22:18

So this is matthew 24 29 to 31 it says but immediately after the tribulation of of those days

01:22:27

The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light And the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heaven will be shaken

01:22:36

And then the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky And then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man

01:22:45

Coming on the clouds of the sky With the with power and great glory and he will send forth his angels

01:22:56

With a great triumph Sorry great trumpet and they will gather together his elect from the four winds

01:23:04

And one end of the sky to the other So I take a stab at it first for us because I messaged philip kaiser on this very point

01:23:12

Because i've noticed Not all post -millennialists will answer these questions the same way

01:23:20

Philip kaiser is a whip -filled alumni, too Oh and hey i'm over here saying

01:23:25

Well, i've read it a few times now and this was this is what broke my pre -millennial eschatology

01:23:36

And when I say that i'm just saying like I was willing To let go of premill to just better learn the all mill and post mill

01:23:43

So it's not that like he convinced me of post mill or anything But he made a reasonable enough case for my heart to to let go andrew of pre -mill um, so I've missed

01:23:55

I i'm going to interview philip kaiser. I'm gonna wear him down one of these days He's already committed. We just don't have a date yet because I told

01:24:01

I was like we got to talk about this book But i've sent him messages saying what do you do with verses 29 through 31?

01:24:08

This was his answer. I'm not impressed with it And i'd love to hear frost speak more to this but some post -millennialist partial predators will say

01:24:16

The sign of his coming is not the same thing as the actual second coming

01:24:21

And so it's talking about two different comings here 29 to 31 verses later in the context

01:24:27

And so a lot of partial predators will say well that particular coming was the coming of judgment on 70 a .d

01:24:33

And that's to be distinguished than the the coming that he's talking about later or they'll just say that this is a type of telescoping view of The the great and awesome day of the lord that's at the end of a time essentially

01:24:50

Yeah, what do you think is there other views that the partial predators will hold that's just one that yeah, they just say that that's or that you know, that's 70 a .d

01:24:57

language and it's apocalyptic language and symbolic of just the war and That's that's the end of that And so they usually go back.

01:25:08

Oh, yeah I wanted you to say something else to a question that andrew asked me earlier about like what's what's the hook line and sinker?

01:25:16

To full preterism. I told them the timing indicators And I did talk about how this age and the age to come What are some other things that really you know captures people that they stumble into full predators?

01:25:29

Of all of the and Way back in the corner there. Uh, I have a whole three shelves

01:25:37

Of full preterist stuff with all of the big stuff anyway, and and i've read i've read all of them

01:25:46

And all of them start with chapter one time text So that's their thing.

01:25:52

That's that's the whole that's without that That's it's done.

01:25:58

It's over with and so Uh, it's an all or nothing approach

01:26:04

So it all stands or falls together And a lot of eschatology operates in our views like that so with like I would say a hyper dispensationalism

01:26:16

They don't have the abomination of desolation that jesus is talking about in matthew 24, they don't have that in 70 ad they might pay a

01:26:25

Little bit of a certain, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It happened but that's not what jesus was

01:26:31

There's a future abomination of desolation will take place in the third temple So that it's an all or nothing the whole the whole thing is is holy future

01:26:41

None of it has been fulfilled yet in matthew 24. Nothing has been fulfilled yet Then, uh, you have what's his mainline

01:26:52

Scholarship from day one that we have Jerome, justin,

01:26:57

I mean you could go irenaeus The epistle of barnabas down the line

01:27:03

Where there there is a reference that jesus was referring to the events of 70 ad in the abomination of desolation

01:27:10

That he's talking about there however That's not the end The end is represented by 29 through the following the sun and the moon and all of that That's the end and there's a difference between the events that take place

01:27:24

Until the end when the end comes That's it. There's no more events after the end.

01:27:30

The end is the end. It's the end And the end is not yet. So you'll see this war take place in 70 ad, but the end is not yet You're going to also see a lot of other wars take place, but the end is not yet when the end happens.

01:27:44

There's no debate that's Debates over well, don't you know, there's there's no war

01:27:50

That's going on There's no such thing as war Matt matt is saying to to what you said there jeremiah.

01:27:57

He says so Harmonetical compromise so my my challenge would be I I know we only got like 30 minutes left matt but if you want to come in just go to apologetics live .com

01:28:06

go down to the duck icon click on that come in and and make your case but um

01:28:11

I think you have to use the you have to reduce that language and jeremiah would agree here So you have to reduce the language of destruction

01:28:19

And and you have to blend in the end with the beginning things Clearly, there's a distinction.

01:28:25

Jesus says these are the beginning things or the the labor pain things Which is a term that's used all throughout the old testament of any time when you're going through affliction plague famine war personal

01:28:38

Whatever upturn i'm in affliction. I'm in labor. It's like i'm in labor pains Isaiah would say they all say that's the phrase that used throughout so these beginning labor pains

01:28:47

Well, what ends labor pains does labor pains continue after the end when you have the baby? There's more and more pain continue.

01:28:54

No, it ends it And so all of these kind of afflictions that take place before Is not the end

01:29:02

It's the end will end All of these things it will end persecution.

01:29:08

It will end tribulation. It will end pain and suffering It's going to end that's what they were looking for and every jew knows this

01:29:16

That's why jesus is not the messiah because if he was hamasia He would have ended and made right everything with the world.

01:29:24

That's the biggest Thorn in the christian flesh right now is it's any jewish work that I read

01:29:30

Jesus is not messiah. Why is still injustice in the world? Because the end he's going to end it god is going to make the world all right

01:29:38

Well preterism full preterism. They just obliterate that out completely and entirely and it doesn't

01:29:43

It's not relevant jeremiah's, you know, these young guys these guys see it too pain and suffering are real

01:29:51

You know sam one of the things that really helped me I didn't have much of a background before I heard you speak at the pre -conference there the open air theology conference you brought a lot of Jewish thought it seemed like that a lot of preterism is based in jewish thinking or they think is jewish thinking

01:30:10

Yeah Yeah And I because that was one of the things I mean i'm listening to you as someone who is raised jewish who is bar mitzvahed

01:30:17

Who studied the talmud and i'm going, you know, like, uh, yeah the arguments you're saying they're making is it's just not a jewish argument um, and so I just it really it fascinated me with that and it's something where I I Just look at this and go, okay

01:30:36

They they sit here and make this the claim trying to say they're thinking for a jewish way of arguing but any

01:30:46

Jewish even remotely religious. I mean not talking about the practicing atheist that just happens to be of a jewish descent any jewish person that sat through any seder service for passover knows

01:31:05

That elijah must come before messiah It's the very question that's asked of of jesus by his disciples

01:31:14

Where is he? Where's elijah because that's the expectation of every jewish person looking for the for the messiah

01:31:21

And they're looking to john the baptist and he says well he could have been but he wasn't so if john the baptist was not elijah according to jesus

01:31:31

Then elijah still must come Right, I mean I would agree with the the jewish aspect of the future orientation of What the god of abraham isaac and jacob will bring about he will make right all things that's that's from the very beginning genesis 3 that the whole reason of calling abraham

01:31:54

Is to make right and bless the nation to bring a blessing not to make nations happy so that occasionally we feel good about it no

01:32:01

God's blessing. This this is an eternal blessing You'll know it

01:32:07

Then all the nations will be worshiping And john sees this in revelation 7 all nations languages tribes and peoples a multitude innumerable

01:32:16

And what are they doing worshiping the lamb the warship and unity? That's that's the end

01:32:21

That's what the end will look like that's restoration That's why jesus died on the cross and was born and raised again to bring about the restoration the the things that we've grown and longed for that we read about in the newspaper every day and just are thrown into shockwaves because of just the

01:32:38

Deprivation and debauchery of man against man and it just shocks us into just like god.

01:32:44

How long? That's the jewish cry. How long are you are you going to put up with this?

01:32:49

Well, we know that the answer is he's going to make it right. He is going to make it right So someone

01:32:55

Hear jesse heller says well isaiah 13 happened The sun turned to moon and the darkness and the blood and the stars fell when babylon fell.

01:33:04

No, it didn't You're missing an argument here. I brought this up to don preston. He couldn't answer I said doug if jesus is quoting isaiah 13 and matthew 24 and he said yep

01:33:15

Then it wasn't fulfilled when isaiah spoke it He's fulfilling it

01:33:21

And saying it's going to be fulfilled and he's quoting isaiah 13 Then isaiah 13 when isaiah spoke it was not fulfilled when babylon was captured by the persians

01:33:32

Hey, sam, he doesn't have an answer to that. It well, it was personally fulfilled. I said what what is that?

01:33:38

Mr. Preterist? What Is don preston was he the guy that said satan's really just apostate israel

01:33:48

And denied that he was a fallen angel. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah the devil

01:33:54

That's the rescuing device right there, right? You gotta I mean right there.

01:33:59

That's the rescuing device. All right. Well, let me We we got about 30, uh, 25 minutes left. Let me let me just give a word from our sponsors really quickly uh, i'm hoping that uh,

01:34:09

I know that dr frost would not put anyone here to sleep, but jeremiah just might and so you know because I I get that he might put you to sleep.

01:34:19

I get it and and if that's the case If that's the case, you might want to go to my pillow and get yourself a nice comfortable pillow

01:34:28

So that when when jeremiah's voice puts you to sleep you can Is he going to get a my pillow he's going to get his

01:34:39

But is that a my pillow is the question I have a my pillow. Yeah, there you go So so my

01:34:45

I love I I so I am headed out. Uh this tomorrow I leave for new york

01:34:51

Uh for a conference that we're doing on your responsibility in this world up in uh, up up upstate new york

01:34:58

It's uh, watertown, new york I I actually vowed i'll be I I vowed back in what was it?

01:35:05

I I forget in in the in the 80s when I was in fort drum In the winter and I said

01:35:11

I never want to return to watertown again. Well, i'm going back but I am bringing my pillow actually

01:35:17

I'm bringing my my pillow to the philippines because it is that good. It helps me sleep that well

01:35:22

Jeremiah's voice does one thing for you, but a good my pillow is even better And so if if you don't have jeremiah's voice to put you to sleep

01:35:32

Go to mypillow .com Use the promo code sfe To get the discounts that they offer and to let them know that you heard about them here

01:35:39

So they keep supporting us now If you if you're saying well, I got a good pillow I have jeremiah playing in my ears to put me to sleep, but I need to wake up in the morning.

01:35:49

Well Well, here's the thing in the morning. What you do is go get yourself a good cup of squirrelly joe's coffee

01:35:56

Ah squirrelly joe There you go. Is that what you're drinking there? Jeremiah little squirrelly joe right there.

01:36:04

We had it at the conference. It was good So you could go to striving for eternity .org

01:36:09

Coffee to get yourself a nice cup of squirrelly joe's. What what did you bring home with you?

01:36:17

Jeremiah, what what what did you bring? I brought home some integrity What did you bring home?

01:36:23

You know I i'm still wondering about how those people that are playing my voice trying to get to sleep.

01:36:30

That's good Just listen to the apologetic dog. Just bite the ankles of all the interlocutors just as you go to sleep

01:36:37

Yeah, but so squirrelly joe's has lots of different names for their coffee You can get yourself some compassion some wisdom some honor.

01:36:44

I have integrity. That's what i've been drinking. Uh this month Uh, you can get some kindness I I don't know what dr frost has got there an angel but uh

01:36:56

Go to go to striving fraternity .org Coffee to go and and when you reorder order it there

01:37:02

So he knows that that you were sent by us, but I want to let you know if you are a first -time

01:37:08

Purchaser on your first purchase use the the code when you fill out your thing There's a link at the top to add a discount code use the code sfe for striving fraternity to get 20 off on your first purchase

01:37:20

Which if you're jewish like me that means you order as much as you can on that first order to make sure you get the most discount that you can because I mean

01:37:30

That's what jewish people do, you know, and so Dr. Frost is shaking his head.

01:37:35

So we're thankful But we're glad for squirrelly joe's and and when you're when you're getting coffee over at squirrelly joe's just know that you're supporting a christian family uh as well, so Why get why get coffee from some?

01:37:52

Atheist even if they're promoting, you know, first amendment and second amendment rights when you can get starbucks well star sucks, but That's just mud that's just hot mud come on You know, uh, dr frost and I met squirrelly joe's at the conference back in september

01:38:13

In indiana the the why eschatology matters so I got to sit down with with squirrelly joe himself and he is an awesome man

01:38:20

Oh, i'm jealous So some things that so from earlier in the show

01:38:28

Brother john speaking of jeremiah when when you meant we were talking early on about some of your stuff.

01:38:33

He says love this guy apologetics dog guy Uh just subscribe to his channel great guest andrew

01:38:41

So so I mean I figured I knew I was going to throw him under the bus with some of the comments So I figured i'd have to do a thank you, you know

01:38:48

He also asked me the question andrew book of revelation written before after 70 a .d.

01:38:54

I take it as after I believe it was Historically after and now here let me ask this question that uh, or or mention this comment

01:39:03

This is back to what you said earlier jeremiah J 316 ministry said had a full preterist.

01:39:09

Tell me there is no sin There is uh, sorry had a full preterist.

01:39:15

Tell me there there is no sin. There is no christians Yeah, so so You know for folks who heard the intro

01:39:25

When I had a guy who came in and said like he's not under the law. He could sleep with a prostitute

01:39:31

And it wouldn't be wrong Because he's he's Not under the law

01:39:38

I mean that is gnosticism I mean, that's actually why I asked that guy that question because he was he was teaching gnosticism and didn't know it uh, but it's let jeremiah answer that because he talked with mike sullen about lord's baptism and the lord's table, too, so yeah, well,

01:39:53

I basically a lot of what i've known what I know now is just from our in -depth talks, but Yeah There's so many different kinds of full preterists.

01:40:03

And so dr Frost and I at the conference talking about the israel only crowd those that end up in universalism land the church isn't for today

01:40:10

The the law is no more because it was fulfilled Therefore there there's no more death because death is associated with sin and the law and what um what gary demar and that group are doing remember dr frost it's eschatology fulfilled, but now it can be applied today so you get a mixed bag and I do want to Fan the flames over there to dr.

01:40:34

Frost A lot of full preterists are using dr. Frost old material

01:40:40

In a very deceptive way in my opinion And I just can't believe it. I mean from don preston still selling all of your old stuff

01:40:47

We know some other people that will just praise your your old work and just barely sprinkle and say Please not preterist anymore.

01:40:53

And then they quickly start building hyping you up again And i'm just like man like If I can't believe they do that because they know that you totally reject all that now

01:41:03

I think it's ingenious. It's like if I Was formerly a white supremacist, you know if I was an ex

01:41:12

Grand wizard or something and what if the clank clavern or whatever nonsense?

01:41:20

so anyway What And now i'm whiting writing anti kkk stuff

01:41:26

Up to still be sold and disseminated. I mean i've left the movement i'm i'm no longer and so if you were still actively

01:41:34

Making money off of me as a former grand whatever um Yeah, I I just think that's unethical but don preston doesn't care and this zach davis guy's a

01:41:45

Pastor there in arkansas, so he's become, you know, I don't I don't I don't want to say his name.

01:41:51

Oh, I know so so so So he's quoting and reading my old book that I wrote that don preston publishes

01:42:01

Exegetical essays on the resurrection and don still sells this book He's making money off that even though i've told him don and he said well you gave it to me

01:42:08

Yeah, when I was a full preterist, I I did but i'm no longer I don't want my name associated with well

01:42:17

He you know, it's unethical to me. That's just but sam. Let me let me ask this question I wouldn't no longer sell don preston's books get in there andrew

01:42:27

Yeah, you gotta keep pressing. Yeah, you gotta get in there Yeah What brought you out of full preterism because I I want and you know

01:42:33

We're getting up to close the show and I want to make sure that folks especially this guy matt Who's who's chatting away in our in our chat here?

01:42:40

I want to make sure People hear what is it that brought you out of full preterism the bible

01:42:48

The same thing brought me a pre -millennialism see that Hey real quick before sam jumps on that so I interviewed sam frost about two years ago.

01:42:59

Do you remember that interview? Yeah, I I was so incredible like so happy to have you on and these are the same types of questions that I asked you

01:43:07

And it he and what I read before our interview was your paper on um

01:43:12

The problem of infinity and so these are a lot of those antimony That you were talking about that.

01:43:18

You're just like wow We're ending in a contradiction But full preterism seeks to answer all the questions and it can't do it and i'm thankful for that in my meeting with with jeremiah because I was

01:43:30

I had written so much on the blog and in the book And had done a few debates and this that yeah, so I was done, you know,

01:43:38

I was like, you know I really you know I'm involved in church and and things here as a jail chaplain and just other stuff that i'm just involved in I I really don't have time to sit and debate whether or not the dead were raised in 70 ad which

01:43:53

You know the churches around here in my area of indiana that they've never heard of this and when they do hear of it

01:43:58

They just roll their eyes like well, that's just insane. No No one in their right mind would believe in that and then

01:44:04

I have to explain the whole thing. So jeremiah Was researching reading about this stuff?

01:44:11

And of course my name is going to pop up all over the place from 2002 to 2010 My name is footnote of don preston footnotes me.

01:44:19

I i'm all over the place. I'm a media whore as i've been called so Which I think would be a great name for a show, but anyway

01:44:29

So So jeremiah, he encouraged me because I was getting I was just busy off in other things

01:44:36

And he said no We need you to continue to expose this even to those who have never heard of it

01:44:42

So that when they see it coming they can spot it and say hey, that's not going to be tolerated here

01:44:47

And I thought oh, I never really looked at it. I never looked at it that way as a service

01:44:53

I I didn't this was just a personal thing And he so jeremiah is if if predators are out there mad at what i'm doing it's jeremiah's fault so He gladly takes it

01:45:08

Yeah, so I saw from that perspective and that changed me and I prayed about that talk to my wife I said this young guy said he she says well

01:45:17

Yeah so they can see it coming because The way that they come at these churches is one or two individuals will come in through a bible study and this generation and some standing here and 70 ad josephus and I said, yeah, that's how that's how we do it.

01:45:35

That's how I did it That's how we strategized about doing it when we were full predators at the conferences Did you say you have avoided?

01:45:43

First corinthians 15 like the point if it didn't have to come up If somebody opposes

01:45:49

Full preterism, how do we? And they want to bring up first corinthians. How do we navigate?

01:45:55

Back to the time text and we say well paul mentions there the end That gets me to matthew 24

01:46:04

I mean right there when when it is when you're kind of planning

01:46:13

To infiltrate other churches to pull people away I mean that and and by the way, there's there's a book.

01:46:21

Um, i'm trying to look to see a full title But it's I think it's called doing theology and I can't see a

01:46:27

Woodbridge, it looks like wood. I forget the authors but it's basically a bunch of guys that are giving well guys and girls giving

01:46:34

Their theology from their perspectives like how do they do theology? It's really interesting the the uh

01:46:42

From from well, so you you'd have like a um You know someone who's a charismatic saying how does charismatics do theology?

01:46:52

how do you know each group and it was interesting because You know, there's a guy who's in assemblies of god,

01:46:59

I believe but He was he was saying that basically what they did was they were going into churches like he was making this

01:47:06

Distinction between what they do and what the charismatics do and he was saying that they would go in to churches and try to You know pull people out of the churches to join the pentecostal movement where the charismatic movement just You know splinters off and starts their own thing and I was just like he he was actually admitting that Yeah, they go in for the purpose of infiltration.

01:47:30

Yeah And and it seems like what you're saying Yeah, that was because our audience was not the world.

01:47:37

Our audience was the To get into the churches. Yeah go into the churches So that was the whole thing because you know, there's how many full preterist churches

01:47:45

I can count them on both hands I mean, they don't they don't This is not a rick warren purpose -driven hundred thousand seller best, you know, one of them is in my backyard well,

01:47:56

I mean Happily there should be a warning right that because chris

01:48:01

Jeremiah did he sounded a warning because here's these young generate next generation and I thought man and then he mentioned there's one of his best friends

01:48:12

Baptist minister who's become and I thought wow, it's still And so the full preterist

01:48:17

I take that was we're growing. Oh, we're growing. We're out there. We're growing This would be big news to us.

01:48:23

So when I hear a doug wilson Do what he did with ward finley or I hear gary mark. We're growing

01:48:29

We're our numbers or we're now I don't think it's doing that because I labor a lot in the area here in indiana with churches and stuff and again 99 .9

01:48:40

have not ever heard of any of this whatsoever except from from me or this that you know

01:48:45

So if they saw it coming they would just like take a shotgun and blow it out of the water And so that's the end of that But you have preterism

01:48:54

Which is the I'll say it the uh, the gateway drugs

01:49:00

Ism that led me to full preterism was preterism and so That's see, but but I mean a thing

01:49:08

I think Is the fact that christ was really clear that the gates of hell would not come against the church and so when you have something that is

01:49:21

Has not been seen In the church at all Right now that we can sit there and say okay the red flag.

01:49:28

It should be a red flag Yeah, I mean there there's things you know, we could sit here and look at you know, let's let's take for example pre -millennialism, right

01:49:37

People would say well that's relatively new well, yes, and no because I can argue that when you read

01:49:45

You know augustine he believed in a literal thousand years So that's a pre -millennial view

01:49:51

But he believed he was in it. That's an all -millennial view and that's why both groups can look to him right and say

01:50:00

See, but I don't know any of the early church fathers the middle ages

01:50:08

The reformer nowhere. Do I see anyone teaching full preterism? and the arguments and now granted

01:50:15

I I know it from what you had said at the conference, dr frost, but The the arguments that they made that you made saying that they make from judy jewish views

01:50:26

Are not jewish So so even the jewish talmud wouldn't agree with what you said they were claiming.

01:50:34

So if that actually is their view The early church fathers don't hold to it the middle middle ages

01:50:41

You know don't the the reformers don't and the jewish people they claim they're getting it from don't

01:50:48

Yeah, they don't even understand their own views. Yeah Yeah, well that should be a concern

01:50:55

So the dead sea scrolls completely just obliterate that whole Thing because they clear the dead seas community is clearly looking for a now

01:51:04

So they'll say well, yeah, they were looking for a carnal end Of the world and and jesus teaches a spiritual end and like well, that's but that's not a jewish view

01:51:13

But you keep saying that you have this jewish view. What's the jewish view? You can't have

01:51:19

Well, they didn't even recognize jesus as the messiah Well, but some a lot of them tens of thousands of them did yeah you can't the early church

01:51:35

That was the whole purpose of the first council Because thousands of jewish people became christian and they had to say wait.

01:51:43

We're so used to our tradition Of eating kosher and all this. How do we how do we do that?

01:51:49

Look at these gentiles that are they that's the whole purpose of the first council fried chicken. What do we do with these people?

01:51:56

Chicken on on the sabbath Well Baptist eating fried chicken after church and everything on sunday.

01:52:06

Yeah, that's a big issue and it was It still is but there's no

01:52:13

Hebraic don preston and jeremiah laughs at this. He keeps talking about the hebraic mindset

01:52:19

I don't Okay, if you have If you have a hebraic mindset that no hebrew holds to it's not a hebraic mindset, right?

01:52:31

It's a fairy tale It's a fairytale that doesn't exist Here's what

01:52:36

I understand from the second temple judaism first century literature of the massive amount of Is they uh, so here's the issue then

01:52:46

They were looking for the end in the first century, okay, i'll give you that they certainly luke makes this plane they expected

01:52:53

Jesus immediately that the kingdom of god would appear when jesus is coming in and they're doing the whole thing and it doesn't happen

01:52:59

Okay, great. Got it So what does that got to do with anything? Does that mean? That their expectation was wrong in terms of the form and substance

01:53:09

Or does that mean that their expectation was wrong in terms of the time? or how

01:53:15

Because when I go back and I look at the how In jewish literature, I can find that there's a great variety of understanding as to how messiah who messiah

01:53:27

How long messiah would have an interim reign 40 years 400 years a thousand years 300 years 600 years 800 years

01:53:35

There's a great length of debate going on there So, okay, we can enter into that conversation because the new testament enters right into that conversation

01:53:43

Jesus is at the right hand of the father ruling in the midst of his enemies for how long? I don't know

01:53:51

Andrew you probably got this the full preterist view of the millennial reign is 37 to 40 years.

01:53:57

Oh, yes Yeah That's the hebraic mindset. Yeah, so let's do this as we're as we're at the end.

01:54:06

Uh, Jeremiah, we we mentioned and i'll let you close out with anything you want to share as well, but uh

01:54:12

The apologetic dog is is your your ministry where you can be found? Uh on youtube you can be found on instagram

01:54:19

Uh, I know you you what is the website? I know you mentioned it but Yep, it's just the apologetic dog .com

01:54:25

and be looking forward to it getting revamped and again Well really for the first time the website as you see it is done by yours truly and you're like You need to stick to his day job.

01:54:39

He's not a web designer i'd say and you're right Yeah, let me let me take a look at the revamped one and we'll see if it needs more.

01:54:47

We'll see. Yeah Um, I just want to encourage people my heart is to glorify god through apologetics and I don't have all the answers

01:54:54

That's why I love getting together with other godly men like yourselves. I'm learning Proverbs 9 talks about you teach a just man and he'll increase in learning and that's my heart is just to be continue to learn and to have iron sharpening iron and You know,

01:55:10

I love doing debates i've learned a lot from watching debates not only from dr Frost but even andrew some of your debates on your channel from years back and matt slick and then

01:55:20

Obviously, dr James white has been you know a huge influence in my life So it's been cool to be a part of the debate arena, but I tell people

01:55:28

I want to be charitable especially with brothers in the faith on important but secondary tertiary doctrine

01:55:36

Um, i'm sure i'll square off with the flower patch kid, uh, layton flowers himself and you know what?

01:55:42

I want to be nothing but kind and cordial to this man. He believes in the right gospel and um

01:55:47

You might see a little bit of different demeanor when i'm debating heretics people that contend for a different gospel together

01:55:54

But I still want to do it in love. I don't want to model, you know, donald trump and hillary clinton

01:55:59

You know throwing insults at each other. It's like no. No, we can speak the truth In love

01:56:05

So that's my heart. I think that comes through i'm always thinking firstly about 12 -5 church the the flock that's been entrusted to me

01:56:12

And I tell people my apologetics ministry is firstly for them and whoever else it can benefit outside of that praise god

01:56:20

All right and so Uh, dr. Frost, how can folks get a hold of you?

01:56:26

how can folks uh Follow what you're doing. I mean, I know you got that podcast. Oh wait

01:56:31

No, you don't when you want to set that up. Let me know We'll we'll set you up with the christian podcast community and help you out

01:56:38

Dr. Frost. Hey, if you would if you know, you know, I would like to start one I just don't know how to how to go about this.

01:56:44

This is how you get a hold of me though. Is that Virgil dot blog no vigil. Oh vigil.

01:56:50

I I can't Actually, so it's vig actually or vi6 I read virgil virgil's good reading

01:56:58

Vigil dot blog is your blog said, okay So that's how you get a hold. That's his marketing.

01:57:03

He just holds up a post -it. I love it I want to encourage I want to encourage people look up dr

01:57:12

Frost article on the problem of infinity that was a big part of my interview with you a couple years ago.

01:57:17

This is a Logical internal critique of full preterism that just is not a workable worldview.

01:57:23

It contradicts itself, right? And I had great help with uh, dr. Kenneth calvert Researching and writing that so that was he was the dean of the seminary again may he rest in peace

01:57:33

Uh miss it miss him tremendously well, I want to Gotten a hold of and then uh, just showing up on my my facebook page

01:57:42

Uh samuel, what is my name samuel frost on that? Wait, you don't know your name

01:57:48

I don't know samuel m frost. There's a there's a couple sam frosts out there But my main uh

01:57:57

Way of Communication is my facebook page. That's my main Facebook's like eight months after the thing launched

01:58:05

Oh, so you and I we'd have to see which one of us started early. I was pretty early on I was Early on there.

01:58:10

I was when you had to it was required to have a school id You had to have a school email they have beat me because we were in we were in pal talk

01:58:22

Ah chat rooms So we were in christianity today chat rooms. It was like 90 2001 you're talking to like matt slick or something in pal.

01:58:31

No, I know matt slick. I watched him start So folks at the end of this you can go to carm .org

01:58:40

and go and watch matt is having a debate right now on uh Is jesus divine?

01:58:48

Matt has been texting me throughout the show tonight about his debate. Okay So it's like he's sitting there debating a guy and he's like, oh this guy's so bad

01:58:57

Like you've got to watch this like this guy's arguments so I after this i'm gonna go back in the day

01:59:06

We went on at it and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's when I used some of that's when I used to drink a little you know

01:59:12

Yeah I used to get on there pretty flying after a bottle of wine

01:59:20

So Facebook so facebook became like this big vacuum just everybody moved to facebook so i've been on facebook ever since then and that's how you can contact and I Uh, like jeremiah would will testify, you know, you reach out to me.

01:59:34

I'll get i'll get in touch but I try try You'll get back in touch with everyone.

01:59:42

Um, so Well, I I thank both of you for coming in I think I think this has been hopefully helpful for a lot of folks to understand full preterism to understand what it is what the

01:59:54

What the arguments for it are and what the arguments against it are so I I thank you guys for coming in Uh, i'm gonna i'm gonna put you guys backstage

02:00:03

You don't have to take off if you want to talk after but i'm just gonna put you backstage while I talk about Uh some things for the next show

02:00:09

So next week we're going to be talking about first timothy chapter 2 12 and following we're going to address well one person's view a very

02:00:18

Interesting. I will say unique view of first timothy 2 on how they are going to justify that women can be teaching and preaching

02:00:28

I never heard it before Someone sent it to us asked us whether we would engage with it.

02:00:33

So we will I hopefully I had someone a jewish rabbi that is

02:00:40

Challenging me. Uh, he wants to debate whether jesus was the messiah.

02:00:45

We will see if that is going to be set up Uh, he well like the guy with this show has ghosted me once I said, yes,

02:00:52

I will do that debate I have not heard from him now in three weeks Uh, but we're hoping i'm hoping that maybe he's just traveling

02:01:01

I will be um Gone like this weekend i'm up in upper state new york as I mentioned

02:01:07

Uh for the conference on your your responsibility to the world But I will be leaving for the philippines.

02:01:14

I'll be gone for three weeks and therefore drew will either be setting up the shows or Uh, we we

02:01:20

I will have to figure out how we're going to do the shows But I will be in the philippines. So I do ask for your prayers for that I will be delivering a number of messages.

02:01:30

Uh, it is a packed Schedule um, we're going to be on several different islands, uh as I look at the schedule here, we're going to be in manila palawan

02:01:41

Back to manila to baha 'u'llah We're going to be doing a pre -conference. We got some i'll actually they just set up as soon as I land

02:01:49

The next morning early morning i'm going to a school to preach the gospel in a school

02:01:55

They're letting me go into a school. They can't do this in america I'm going into a school to preach the gospel for an hour

02:02:02

Uh, then we're going to be doing a radio interview. We got a pre -conference on friday. Uh, Actually friday pretty much all day from 8 30 to to 3 30

02:02:12

Then we do the main conference on saturday. They've sold out They I think it's a thousand seats and people are still there.

02:02:19

They're having standing room only So, uh, then both justin peters jim osmond and myself will be split up into three different churches for sunday

02:02:27

We then go to palawan we then we return to uh, I know when we return to manila we're doing a church camp

02:02:34

Uh, we're going to be speaking a number of things So so the conference itself that we'll be doing both in manila and baha 'u'llah is on strange fire

02:02:43

We're going to be dealing with the issues of the charismatic movement. The pre -conference is going to be on dealing with woke christianity or well just the woke world, uh the social justice

02:02:54

So it is going to be a packed time so I do ask for your prayers there uh,

02:03:00

I have just uh, we worked out so I will be in utah at the utah research center

02:03:07

That will be july 13th to uh I have 13th to 29th, but that's way too long.

02:03:14

Uh, the 20th. Sorry. It's the 20th to 23rd 20th to 23rd i'll be in in utah.

02:03:21

So, um The also I do want to mention and encourage you guys to put this one on your calendar, uh

02:03:30

This is an important one I think is going to be good christian's responsibility in an unchristian world is the conference in vail, arizona august 10th

02:03:39

Sorry eighth to tenth an absolutely great lineup of speakers that some of them you may not have ever heard of but Well me you've heard of but i'm not the great speaker kevin.

02:03:50

Hey John sampson aaron brewster dan croft Dominic rimaldi jay miller you do not want to miss this uh, and so this is this is a great, uh,

02:04:03

I think I think this is going to be a great conference and uh, I think that uh, you really want to Uh make it to this if at all possible.

02:04:13

So this is in in vail Arizona, there is a qr code right there that you can scan to get the to sign up for the event break page

02:04:20

You can also go on event bright to search for christian responsibility in an unchristian world or go to striving fraternity .org

02:04:26

It is in our in our banner right up on the on the top there So those are some events we got coming up.

02:04:32

That's what we have. Um, We we have some other things coming up that uh after I get back from the philippines

02:04:39

That we're still working on for future shows. I hope that uh, hope this show encouraged you