Head Coverings Debated

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply. Not too bad.

It's not only two that statements would be either true or false. So is it true?

That i'm talking to you. Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay, is it true that babies exist? Um. Well, I mean how long babies exist. Babies exist. Babies exist.

Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

I would I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you want to be very strict about it I would be skeptical about. Okay, we're done talking.

Welcome Back to Apologetics Live and the Head Coverings Debate

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries.

He's back. Well, welcome to apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions anything you have about god and the bible we can answer them. Right here just go to apologetics live dot com.

Go there scroll down till you see the little duck icon for stream yard click on that tell your browser to use your microphone camera and join us for your discussions, we're going to have a well, I don't know if it'll be heated but uh.

It'll be better argument than what we played there in the beginning with matt slick and an atheist and the atheist couldn't admit. Babies exist drew. There you go, we we're we're going to be talking about.

Uh your latest podcast that you did on matter of theology yeah head coverings which. If you had a head covering well. You you in your case we'd call that a wig. Um, true very true. But uh, yeah, so this is a topic I I figured I listened to your latest episode that you did with chris huff.

And there have been a number of podcasts. I went and looked On the christian podcast community and there's a number of them that have dealt with this topic. In some detail you guys did a whopping one.

What was that like three hours? Yeah, three hours. That's the longest we've ever done. Uh, seriously. I was I was in the car for a ride. And I thought okay you I saw what was in my christian podcast community feed.

I had europe you were up and then I had a couple others and i'm like this should be like you know, maybe. Well, okay. I listen at triple speed. So just take that but I actually thought by before I got to my destination.

I would finish all the episodes in my christian podcast community feed which. Four episodes I figured that was going to be enough time. But no, no. You and chris honholds, you know was all I got a chance to listen to on a long ride.

You were one hour of listening for that. Wow three hours, but you went into detail. So you did one your episode recently a matter of theology was head coverings cultural practice or biblical ordinance now before that.

The guys from do theology I think they did a multi-part. I searched on christianpodcastcommunity .org. I went there and just searched for head coverings and. They had one episode 58, which is the second one about head coverings answering questions.

So 57 must have been the one they did they had at least a two-parter if not a three both of them uh were studying and and Preparing and preaching on first corinthians if i'm correct correctly and had changed their view.

Uh, and then We had thoroughly equipped. So we have at least one episode from a female on head coverings. Uh thoroughly equipped has an episode called wrestling with head coverings um, so We have that.

And there's a fourth one that covered it squirrel chatter Had covered it in his november 18th 2021 episode. He had touched on head coverings now in that case he doesn't go into as much detail but Uh thoroughly equipped went into detail on it giving her her background melissa lex gave her background uh and do theology did a couple of episodes and explained not only their position change Why they came to it, but also, uh answering some questions and and on that I gave them some things.

If i'm correct correctly and they answered on their their next episode. So we have a couple of them if if this Episode doesn't give enough detail. You guys will have more resources At the christian podcast community to check out.

So just go christian podcast community .org. And type in head coverings just know what to do theology episode 57 may be where you got to start.

And we have another one coming as well. There's a there's going to be a another Episode on head covering from a woman's perspective.

Well, you're getting melissa lex on.

Yeah, we have a special guest that's coming so. Which one of your wives are coming on? Uh, neither. But uh, we have we have another pastor's wife. It's gonna it's a secret.

I know i'm drawing it out. I'm trying. I'm trying working. Yeah. Well, we'll see about that.

But yeah, but in in our episode that we did I actually I explained kind of my journey and how that took shape. Yeah what I believed before and then. Uh what I came to afterwards so so my journey's in there as well.

Yeah.

So melissa here is saying welcome back to your own show. I hijacked it for a little bit and now he's back. Yeah. Well, it's actually uh. Not so much hijacked. You you did me a favor gave me some time.

So I was out in idaho um my my favorite church Kootenai community church with pastor jim osmond. Um, if I could stand the cold, that's where I would go to church.

But uh. It would be a good choice. Yeah Yeah.

It would be uh, great. It's a great church. Not just the preaching of jim, but the whole church. I I do recommend you getting out there and checking it out. You you'd I would love to I would love to be there and sit.

Uh, just in the pews while jim is preaching. I would. Because you know, I listened to his the kootenai community podcast. Uh, but it's just you know, it's not the same. Not the same. As would be sitting under his preaching.

Yeah, and and I you know, I got the chance to do that. Uh just sitting and you know, I I did a bunch of ministry while I was out there. I I spoke at a church and uh pastor jason up church church up churches church but uh.

That he's in deer park, washington great church. I I gotta tell you I I got there. We we did a seminar weekend seminar. But on sunday, we got there early before church starts with for prayer. I I wish I could have just recorded their church members praying.

So that people could know what a prayer meeting should sound like. Yeah. Um, and and I loved it, you know what what Pastor jason does is every week he prays for another local pastor. Wow in their church.

Yeah, he's got when I got to pulpit. I noticed he's got a list of churches. And he just is praying and he's got the dates when he's going to pray for them and He's not just praying. Okay, this church like he's in touch with the pastors and has specific things to bring before the congregation for prayer.

So that was really good. I I really enjoyed that went to speak at cocawalla lake bible camp did an apologetics training there we did we dealt with the topics of the Reliability of scripture social justice and then the uniqueness of christianity.

So that was good and we did an outreach now now I gotta tell you this this this will be fun for for the audience. This is apologetics live. So I wish that I could have gotten this woman in To come into apologetics live, but I know that's not going to happen.

So this guy peter from missionary gamer if you go back to previous episodes, we had him on. He was event we were out evangelizing with some other folks and he was talking to this gentleman. Which was really kind of a sad discussion only because the conversation seemed like it was going so good.

As I heard some of his conversation, he's talking to him sharing the gospel. Guy is seems like he's tracking with peter the whole time and just. Seems like everything's going great. And and peter's just like gets to the end and it's like hey, you know what you know like basically what's stopping you from.

You know receiving christ right now type of thing and the guy just goes I'm done. And walked away. I was like, oh but during that conversation. This elderly woman in a walker or she wasn't really that old.

She's probably in her 50s I'm thinking but she had a walker and she walks by peter. And just decides oh, I know where i'm setting up and sits down. Right behind peter next to me where I was standing. And i'm like, okay, maybe she just is saying it because it's in the shade.

So I walk over to give her a gospel track. And she says I don't need one of those i'm a devout atheist. And I said well, can you give me your best argument for atheism? Now, let me stop here and explain why I asked that when someone says they're an atheist.

Ask them what's their best argument because you know what you're going to find is their best argument. Christianity is wrong. Actually, not an argument for atheism just for the record an argument for atheism is one that supports that.

The view of atheism and you'd think a devout atheist would have one, right? She goes what's your argument for god? And I paused for a moment went. Well, you just gave it. And she looked at me puzzled and I said.

You used an ability to reason. Which chemical reactions can't produce? That requires an immaterial source for you to have an ability to reason. There's an argument for god and she goes she goes, you know.

If you're gonna you don't know how these things work. If you have a a premise you have to support your premise. You just did. Man, I I just did but i'm still waiting for you. To support your claim that you're an atheist a devout atheist.

She says well, I don't have to. I said wait, you don't have to support your view, but I have to support mine. She said yes, and I said you don't see that's a little hypocritical. Right to which she was not happy, right.

And and so she started off with me kind of contentious. Okay, fine. I I if it wasn't for the fact we were just getting ready to leave. Once peter finished up that conversation. We were we were leaving because we had a set time to leave and we had somewhere to eat to be.

Had we not done that the area we were was not really conducive to open air. I you know would be hard to get a heckler in. But she would have made a good heckler. The only problem is she was sitting on the ledge.

I would have to stand on the ledge and we wouldn't get a crowd around her but it she would have gotten a crowd. Because she really thought she had great arguments until she ran into someone that actually um.

Knows how logic works and so. She was saying that she doesn't need to support her claims. Well, you know we get into further conversation and Peter ends his conversation comes over asks her if she'll take a picture of of the team.

She's willing to do that and she goes. Oh look here. I found my picture when I was with. You know some jesus crusade in new york, right? And so she's never answered the question. You know to support her claim of atheism.

And so I I said because typically when you have someone like her you're getting someone who Grew up in the church as she said. But something happened right and they're responding to their upbringing. So I asked her.

I said so. So what happened? And she goes I got an education I said. And what did your education teach you? What did you learn now notice folks? What do I do with every time she makes a statement? I ask a question.

I'm not on the hot seat. I'm not having to defend her claims, which is what she wants I'm making her defend her claims which she's probably never had to do before. And was frustrated when she was when she had to do that.

She didn't like that. She likes being in the position where she's challenging christians. I.

Don't fall for that trick. So I just not only that they like to they like to kind of do rapid fire questions. So before you can answer one question, they're off to another question.

And she wasn't like that often does happen. Yes, and so you got it with that if someone does that drew the thing to do is to say, okay. You just mentioned five questions. Which one do you want me to answer?

Right? And then when you answer that and they do it a second time, okay, you just answer ask six questions. Which one do you want me to answer next time? And when you do that a couple of times Then you could say you notice that you just rapid fire questions.

I answer it. You ignore the answer and rapid fire more questions. Are you actually interested in the answer? Because that's the thing you want to get to. And you'll you'll often find out. No, they're not.

Well, you also see you know christians that that happens to that get those rapid fire questions. They think they have to answer every single question and then they end up getting flustered instead of saying hold on.

Like you like you just mentioned hold on which one of those do you want me to answer right taking back control of the conversation?

Yeah, and that's the thing that's a good thing to do when you're in the position as drew's mentioning because. What's what they're trying to do is get you to be flustered just ask them which one's the important one and What you could do is say, okay, let's let me answer the one that's most important to you and then we'll take the others and you know, you'll see if you if you're.

If that happens on the show, I usually try to take notes to write down all the questions. So I have a record of them and and I can mention all the ones we never got to because they just kept going. So but so she's sitting there and she's like, well, I got an education.

I said, well, what did your education teach you? She said that nothing in the bible is true. I was nothing not a single thing. It's all every single thing is wrong. Not even a place. There's not a single thing right now clearly.

She's making that I could sit there and challenge that right? But i'm just like really not a single thing. And now she had had it because she's she lost a couple of her, you know arguments that she was trying to make and What ended up happening?

Was she just turns to feel in her, you know, this is the thing you're dealing with you're dealing with a person's pride. She's gonna kind of lash so that as we're leaving because she knew we were leaving.

She can feel prideful and like say that we're the big meanies and she says well I don't like to be contentious and I I had turned around to leave and I turned back to her and I said Oh, ma 'am, that's not true.

You love to be contentious. You started being contentious with us. You sat down here to be contentious you just don't want to be contentious with christians that can actually answer for our faith. Because you notice you never answered for your faith.

And then we turned again and walked away, you know, and and so what it is the the thing of this is is I wanted to just point out the different things that Happen when you're having an exchange like that.

She was contentious. But she wants to claim that we are well the reality was is we're being very polite to her. I mean, I was just asking her questions and she was Contentious she set up because she heard peter having a conversation.

I think she thought I got these guys. Well peter does this all day long in the gaming world? Okay, if you if you want just go out check out missionary gamer on twitch and and you can see or on on youtube he's got a ton of videos and you know, and that was actually a neat thing i'll segue into this before we get to head coverings, but Uh, it was neat seeing peter has a different ability that that I can't do.

When we're out on the street because he he sees a bunch of kids and he goes Hey, you guys like to play video games and a bunch of kids that turned away from taking a gospel track from him. All turned back toward him.

Suddenly he had their their interest and he was he has these, you know cards with his youtube channel. And these kids like to just watch other people play video games so he's like hey check out my channel he's got x number of videos and Views and subscribers whatever and you know gets them now that was something they would take.

So that was kind of neat to be able to watch someone else have a totally different technique than I have. And watch and learn from him. So that was kind of neat to do. All right, so a couple comments I did see melissa said, uh drew.

You did a great job filling in for andrew. I think what she means by that is It was easy. Um Jason Jason cave who is a member member means that he's paying he pays it at youtube. That's why he has a little uh, green Thing there icon there at the end, but uh, he says great job filling Uh great job indeed for drew filling in.

Thank you.

Let me that it means a lot because andrew's shoes are really hard to fill. Especially with an audience that is so loyal. Um, so to be able to come in. And fulfill that time and have a great, uh reception.

Uh, it does mean a lot.

Yeah, well, I do appreciate you filling in. I think you did well. You you and and your co-host chris huff came in. Um, it gave me a chance to to take a break.

That's what I you know, I I was texting you while you were while you were out there and I Just making sure that that's what you were doing. You were you were getting rest because it was much needed.

Yeah, the atv ride was maybe not as restful as I thought but I was glad that I got back on. I got the confidence to to ride again. It was good.

Did they have to wrap you in bubble wrap. Because I was gonna text jim and say make sure andrew is wrapped.

So somebody had said that to me like make sure you're wrapped in bubble wrap and I was gonna like To bust on my friend thomas leo. I was gonna go to home depot get a bunch of bubble wrap and like get out of my get out of the car like in bubble wrap and.

But no, it was a good ride. We we did like a 50 mile ride I think 40 or 50 mile ride uh. So it was some great views. Um, enjoyed it thoroughly. Let me bring in. Mr. Huff who's backstage. Uh, he's your.

I was gonna say he's your co-host on matter of theology, but he's actually the host and you're the co-host. So pretty much.

That's what it is now. Yeah. Yeah.

So welcome chris, what's up, buddy? How are you? Good. Good. Good. So, uh, so I was I listened to your um, Really really short episode that you guys did.

Um, I think it was your just thinking episode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We actually called them. We're like, hey How do you get your episodes so long and so they gave us a couple of pointers and you know, we just grabbed onto that.

Yeah, I figured I figured this was my imagination. Chris huff was You know calls up And says to to you know, daryl. Hey, just to let you know, you're not the only guys that can go three hours and still have.

You know, you know what's funny about that man is we didn't we didn't I mean we didn't plan on that um, but as as this topic, um as we were talking about this topic and Um just over the last couple, you know, or last week and a half, I guess bro, right?

Yeah, and um, And I I mean we were going back and forth on marco polo and in texts and stuff like that. And I said dude, we should we should just do an episode on it. He said let's do it and the thing is.

Sorry, no, no good good. But the thing is is so andrew you were mentioning all those other Podcasts that were doing episodes on head coverings. We had no idea that this was actually a topic that was blowing up right now.

No, we we heard uh a local pastor that preached on this topic. And we were just like the uh, I don't know about that one um.

So in multiple ways there is and I can't remember If it was on the christian podcast community or conversations that matter with john harris. But there is a book on head coverings That's recently come out.

Uh, I I did not get a chance to order it because I was I was driving but I meant to. But it goes through the history. And so some of what you guys did in your podcast this person looked at it historically showing that head covering were very commonplace before the 60s with the feminist movement and you guys addressed the history of the feminist movement, so.

Um, yeah, we actually linked to uh to a book in in our show that's full of uh, History stuff, but it also deals with it exegetically as well. Yes, it may be the same book.

I I have to look probably jeremy garner's book melissa is saying talking of anthony time on steroids. For those who don't know anthony when anthony used to co-host here. If he ran the show it always went longer than two hours and we we dubbed that anthony time.

So three hours is anthony time of sarah. It didn't feel like it man and and that was the that was the funny thing is I mean, I think our longest show was Almost two hours before that and that was a dead guy reader society episode.

I think we've done two hour shows I'll have to go back and look. I mean you gotta get we you know. For the record we bust on anthony, but I think I have the longest unfortunately show on this I think we did four and a half hours.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember that on one and it was but it was still I mean people didn't drop off. I mean people listened to the end. Um, and that was when we were dealing with that the church in iowa. Yeah.

You know, but because we didn't want to break that up. We wanted to get everything in its context and that's why we went so long but people found that to be the one of the most valuable ones of that series, so All right.

So we got some comments coming in here some so, uh Melissa says chris, uh did a good job too. So thank you. We got that um, but melissa Was asking andrew. How are you feeling always praying for you and your family and then the other melissa Said did they find out why the double vision?

So let me just real quick give you guys a an update on my my medical condition and what's going on and uh, how you could pray for for me because I could got some need some prayer requests so Uh, the double vision is actually we believe a genetic thing.

My father I guess has it as well. I need to get special glasses, which I haven't been able to get yet because the insurance company promised to pay 30 or The way I have the insurance with them. I pay 30 Co-insurance and they they pay up to 50.

Now you'd think on a lenses that cost of over a thousand dollars. That means well 30 percent 350 percent of that I should pay 250, right? The actual number is 267. Well, they think that the 30 is only on the first 50 so they tell me I have to pay 915.

Yeah big difference um and so fortunately striving fraternity, uh has a lawyer that we have Uh on retainer and I said, hey, could you read through this and he goes? Well, yeah reading through this. Both are true.

And so he's going to write a letter going how about you Explain this and just pay the you know, the 70 so We'll see how that goes. I'm waiting so that I can get these these glasses. Um, It it has been getting better, but it is quite frustrating on on long days.

Like right now i've had a very long day Uh using my eyes a lot and and that strain causes, uh, the double vision to get worse. So appreciate prayers there. You can also be praying because some of you may know.

Uh, I was in an accident and while I was up in Idaho I discovered that the Car is totaled. So we didn't we didn't even get to say goodbye to it. It's just gone. They picked it up the auto body shop took the bumper off and they said oh, yeah, this is My mechanic actually was couldn't couldn't believe that we were not Injured more than we were.

Uh, the whole frame was smashed underneath the floor was gone. Yeah, it was he said it was really bad. He's like he he was like, yeah, i'm i'm really surprised you guys just walked away from that. So, uh, but we have to find a new car so not fun when in the market where cars are quite expensive.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, they are. I mean junkers are going for five grand. Oh, yeah 2005 Ultima with with a hundred thousand miles plus on it was going for like they put it up for like 4 ,500 and they they I think they sold it in an hour and people were like you're putting it too low double the price.

It's crazy. Yikes, so. So yeah. Yeah, I was talking to one pastor. He actually told me he he couldn't find a used car. He bought a new car his first new car ever and he said he could get it faster. It wasn't that it was cheaper.

Yeah, it said he could get it faster. Yep. So it was like, okay. Well, okay. So with that now let's get into the issue of head covering. So, um I was going to read out of the You know new american standard, but I I know you guys are are not into that.

I'm new american standard I I know you but mostly lsb. Yeah. It's pretty close it's actually pretty close between the new american standard and the lsb. Hey chris, who's who's the uh, We're gonna hear a woman's perspective on this on your show.

Who's coming on tell him chris. I told him it's a secret. It is a it is a secret. But it's a secret but but if you pay attention it's actually not a secret.

That's true. That's true. Andrew if you pay attention to facebook, it's really not a secret. I'm just saying.

You want me to go on to facebook, huh? you.

I'm, just saying if you look at where the show has been shared or who has shared it, you know, let me ask this.

Does erin coats wear head coverings? No, I don't think so. I I've seen some pictures with her with them on. I know I know she's listened to it.

Hey, yeah, because the first thing she said was three hours on head covering. She texted me.

She was like three hours on head coverings. I said, yes, ma 'am. Okay, but here's the thing do theology probably did more than that probably because I think we could have done more. We didn't even get through the entire test.

Yeah, they they don't. I think I think three episodes they did two dealing with the Issues and then one answering questions. So so let's chris, would you mind reading the passage? This is for folks if you have your bibles if you are driving your car, please do not open your bible.

Just listen or pull over and read along with us. But first corinthians Chapter 11 starting in verses 1 to 22 is the passage in total but Yeah, we're doing 2 through 16. Yep. All right. All right, god's word says now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions.

Just as I deliver them to you. But I want you to understand that christ is the head of every man. And the man is the head of a woman and god is the head of christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying shames his head.

But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying shames her head. For she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head let her also have let her also have her hair cut short.

But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut short or shave her head or her head shaved, excuse me. Let her cover her head for a man ought To have not have his head covered for since he is the image and glory of god.

But the woman is the glory of man for man does not originate from woman but woman from man. For indeed man was not created for the woman's sake but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels nevertheless in the lord.

Neither is woman independent of man nor is man independent of woman for as the woman originates from the man. So also the man has his birth through the woman but all things originate from god. Judge for yourselves.

Is it proper for a woman to pray to god with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a dishonor to him. But if a woman has long hair it is a glory for her.

For her hair is given to her as a covering for a covering excuse me. But if one is inclined to be contentious we have no other practice nor have the churches of god first corinthians chapter 11 2 through 16.

The Meaning of Headship, Authority, and Created Order

Okay. So first off very different reading between the lsb and new american standard so i'm gonna have to look that up to see how they you know there may be some key words there, but overall first off uh from a.

If you're looking at a feminist Perspective you can see how this clearly would set off Red flags to a feminist, right? This the overall so when we do interpretation. And and we're gonna we're gonna disagree I'm sure because i'm gonna have a different view than you guys came to and and that's fine.

We're gonna see whether. You know, we either can iron sharpens iron convince one of or other of the of a different position. Or or just be clearer in what we think the text says right so one thing we when we have a difficult text like this, the one thing I often do is is to take the step back and say what's the overall thing because.

What people can make the mistake of doing is getting lost in the weeds. By majoring on the minors rather than majoring on the majors. Um, it's one of the things one of the things I teach people to do in if you take my harmonics class that we have at the striving fraternity academy.

If you take that class, I teach you how to block diagram. And the reason for that the reason that's important is you you indent the supporting arguments. So that you have on the outside the main argument so, you know what the main thing is.

And then the indentations are your adverbs prepositional phrases things that are supporting. So you don't focus on the wrong thing. So with having said that the overarching idea here Is male headship.

Right. It's the federal headship of of man. Because if you don't recognize that I mean you're going to have a problem especially with verse 7. Right because they're going to say what you know, so god made man only men in the image of god, but not women.

Right. Well, he's saying that's in creation. But so let's look at the overarching thing. The I think this will all agree with the overarching theme of this is male headship of dealing with the issue of.

The the roles that god has established from creation of men and women. Yeah, see I would say that the the main crux of this passage and paul gets into it is the the principle of authority and subordination and.

And most importantly period god's created order. We see those three spheres there in verse. Uh verse three, um of god's created order and he he works from importance. He starts with with the last one, of course that that that god is the head of christ um, so yeah yeah, and and that's going to be important because.

So he's using this I I I think what paul's doing is taking something that is known and accepted. Especially to a more jewish audience. And taking that into something that's a new Issue, so what do I mean?

Well, if you read the context right after this. He's going to go from head coverings to giving instructions on Fractions in the church to how to handle the lord's supper. Now the lord's supper is new right that that didn't exist before christ head coverings did.

Right. This was was common. It's common even today in judaism where a a woman would walk into shul or what you'd call temple or synagogue and have uh. Basically a little doily that she would then put on her her head.

Now it's it is kind of interesting because. Like when I was in israel um. It was interesting to see when we went into the uh, either a synagogue. Or the welling wall the men had to have their heads covered but not the women.

But then there are other places where we had to reverse that like we went into some of the churches that were there. The women had to be covered not the men so. This is this is a practice of the head coverings the overall theory the overall idea of it as Chris you mentioned is authority.

Okay. So with that, I think we all agree correct. Where where we're going to disagree on is what is that covering? Well, and I think I mean You you tell me I think maybe another place we disagree is is is it a practice for today?

Well, is it an ordinance for today as well? Yeah. Well, I think that's going to be Before we jump to that. Right because when we do interpretation, we want to deal with what the meaning the interpretation is.

Before we jump to the application right because that would be application. The question is going to first be what's the head cover? So i'm going to look at this and the position i've had is that the head covering is hair.