Head Coverings Debated

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00:07

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply Not to that.

00:13

It's not only to that statements would be either true or false So is it true that I'm talking to you?

00:19

Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist?

00:28

Well, I mean how babies exist Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

00:35

I would go down the you know, if you won't be it's very strict about it. I would be skeptical about okay, we're done talking

00:58

He's back Well, welcome to apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions anything you have about God and the

01:06

Bible we can answer them Right here. Just go to apologetics live dot com

01:15

Go there scroll down till you see the little duck icon for stream yard click on that tell your browser to use your microphone camera and join us for your discussions, we're gonna have a well,

01:28

I don't know if it'll be heated but It'll be better argument than what we played there in the beginning with Matt slick and an atheist and the atheist couldn't admit babies exist drew

01:42

There you go, we're gonna be talking about Your latest podcast that you did a matter of theology.

01:50

Yeah head coverings, which if you had a head covering well

01:56

You in your case, we'd call that a wig true But Yeah, so this is a topic

02:06

I figured I listened to your latest episode that you did with Chris Hough and there have been a number of Podcasts.

02:14

I went and looked on the Christian podcast community and there's a number of them that have dealt with this topic

02:21

In some detail you guys did a whopping one. What was that like three hours? Yeah three hour

02:27

That's the longest we've ever done. I seriously I was I was in the car for a ride and I thought okay you

02:34

I saw what was in my Christian podcast community feed I had Europe you were up and then

02:40

I had a couple others and I'm like this should be like, you know, maybe Well, okay.

02:46

I listen at triple speed So just take that but I actually thought but before I got to my destination

02:51

I would finish all the episodes of my Christian podcast community feed which four episodes. I figured that was gonna be enough time

02:58

But no, no You and Chris on holds, you know was all

03:04

I got a chance to listen to on a long ride You were one hour of listening for that Wow three hours, but you went into detail

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So you did one your episode recently a matter of theology was head coverings cultural practice or biblical ordinance now before that The guys from do theology.

03:25

I think they did a multi -part. I Searched on Christian podcast community org. I went there and just searched for head coverings and they had one episode 58, which is the second one about head coverings answering questions, so 57 must have been the one they did they had at least a two -parter if not a three both of them were studying and and Preparing and preaching on first Corinthians if I remember correctly and had changed their view

03:56

And then we had thoroughly equipped so we have at least one episode from a female on head coverings

04:05

Thoroughly equipped has an episode called wrestling with head coverings So we have that and there's a fourth one that covered its squirrel chatter

04:16

Had covered it in his November 18th 2021 episode he had touched on head coverings now in that case.

04:25

He doesn't go into as much detail, but Thoroughly equipped went into detail on it giving her her background.

04:33

Melissa Lex gave her background and Do theology did a couple of episodes and explained not only?

04:41

their position change why they came to it, but also Answering some questions and on that I gave them some things if I remember correctly and they answered on their their next episode

04:53

So we have a couple of them if if this Episode doesn't give enough detail. You guys will have more resources at the

05:01

Christian podcast community to check out So just go to Christianpodcastcommunity .org and type in head coverings.

05:08

Just know what to do theology Episode 57 may be where you got to start and we have another one coming as well

05:14

There's a there's gonna be a another episode on head covering from a woman's perspective

05:22

Well, you're getting Melissa Lex on We have a special guest that's coming so Which one of your wives are coming on?

05:32

Neither but we have we have another pastor's wife. It's gonna it's a secret. I know

05:37

I'm drawing it out. I'm trying Well, we'll see about that but yeah, but in in our episode that we did actually

05:47

I Explained kind of my journey and how that took shape.

05:53

Yeah what I believed before and then What I came to afterwards so so my journey's in there as well

06:00

Yeah, so Melissa here is saying welcome back to your own show Hijacked it for a little bit and now he's back.

06:10

Yeah. Well, it's actually Not so much hijacked you you did me a favor gave me some time so I was out in Idaho My favorite church

06:20

Kootenai Community Church with Pastor Jim Osman If I could stand the cold, that's where I would go to church

06:30

But it'd be a good choice. Yeah. Yeah It would be Great.

06:35

It's a great church. Not just the preaching of Jim, but the whole church I do recommend you getting out there and checking it out.

06:43

You I would love to I would love to be there and sit Just in the pews while Jim is preaching.

06:51

I was because you know, I listened to his Kootenai community podcast

06:57

But it's just you know, it's not the same not the same as would be sitting under his preaching

07:04

Yeah, and and I you know, I got the chance to do that Just sitting in right, you know,

07:09

I did a bunch of ministry while I was out there I spoke at a church and Pastor Jason up church church churches church, but The he's in Deer Park, Washington great church.

07:25

I gotta tell you I I got there We did a seminar weekend seminar, but on Sunday, we got there early before church starts with for prayer.

07:34

I Wish I could have just recorded their church members praying So that people could know what a prayer meeting should sound like.

07:44

Yeah And and I loved it, you know what what Pastor Jason does is every week.

07:51

He prays for another local pastor Wow in their church Yeah, he's got when I got to the pulpit.

07:56

I noticed he's got a list of churches and He just is praying and he's got the dates when he's gonna pray for them and he's not just praying

08:05

Okay, this church a like he's in touch with the pastors and has specific things to bring before the congregation for prayer

08:12

So that was really good. I really enjoyed that went to speak at Coquihalla Lake Bible Camp did an apologetics training there we did we dealt with the topics of the reliability of Scripture social justice and then the uniqueness of Christianity So that was good and we did an outreach now now

08:34

I gotta tell you this this This will be fun for for the audience. This is apologetics live So I wish that I could have gotten this woman in to come into apologetics live, but I know that's not gonna happen

08:44

So this guy Peter from missionary gamer if you go back to previous episodes, we had him on he was

08:52

We're out evangelizing with some other folks and he was talking to this gentleman Which was really kind of a sad discussion only because the conversation seemed like it was going so good as I heard some of his

09:04

Conversation he's talking to him sharing the gospel Guy is seems like he's tracking with Peter the whole time and just Seems like everything's going great and Peter's just like gets to the end and it's like hey, you know what?

09:19

You know, like basically what's stopping you from you know, receiving Christ right now type of thing and the guy just goes

09:27

I'm done and walked away. I was like, oh but during that conversation

09:33

This elderly woman in a walker or she wasn't really that old she's probably in her 50s I'm thinking but she had a walker and she walks by Peter and Just decides.

09:44

Oh, I know where I'm setting up and sits down Right behind Peter next to me where I was standing and I'm like, okay

09:53

Maybe she just is saying it because it's in the shade so I walk over to give her a gospel track and And she says

10:01

I don't need one of those I'm a devout atheist and I said well, can you give me your best argument for atheism?

10:09

Now, let me stop here and explain why I asked that when someone says they're an atheist Ask them what's their best argument because you know what you're gonna find is their best argument

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Christianity's wrong actually, not an argument for atheism just for the record an

10:26

Argument for atheism is one that supports that the view of atheism and you think about atheist would have one, right?

10:35

She goes what's your argument for God and I paused for a moment went well, you just gave it

10:43

And she looked at me puzzled and I said you used an ability to reason which chemical reactions can't produce

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That requires an immaterial source for you to have an ability to reason there's an argument for God and she goes she was you know, if you're gonna you don't know how these things work if you have a

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Premise you have to support your premise And man, I just did but I'm still waiting for you to support your claim that you're an atheist a devout atheist

11:14

Says well, I don't have to I said wait You don't have to support your view but I have to support mine

11:20

She said yes, and I said you don't see that's a little hypocritical To which she was not happy, right and and so she started off with me kind of contentious.

11:32

Okay, fine Um, I if it wasn't for the fact we were just getting ready to leave once Peter finished up that conversation

11:39

We were we were leaving because we had a set time to leave and we had somewhere to eat to be Had we not done that the area we were was not really conducive to open -air

11:49

You know would be hard to get a heckler in But she would have made a good heckler. The only problem is she was sitting on the ledge

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I would have to stand on the ledge and we wouldn't get a crowd around her But it she would have gotten a crowd because she really thought she had great arguments until she ran into someone that actually

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Knows how logic works and so She was saying that she doesn't need to support her claims well, you know we get into further conversation and Peter ends his conversation comes over asks her if she'll take a picture of the team

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She's willing to do that and she goes. Oh look here I found my picture when I was with you know, some Jesus crusade in New York, right?

12:30

And so she's never answered the question, you know to support her claim of atheism

12:36

And so I said because typically when you have an someone like her You're getting someone who?

12:43

grew up in the church as she said But something happened right and they're responding to their upbringing.

12:50

So I asked her I said so so what happened and she goes I got an education.

12:56

I Said and what did your education teach you? What did you learn now notice folks? What do

13:01

I do with every time she makes a statement? I ask a question. I'm not on the hot seat I'm not having to defend her claims, which is what she wants

13:10

I'm making her defend her claims Which she's probably never had to do before and was frustrated when she was when she had to do that She didn't like that.

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She likes being in the position where she's challenging Christians. I Don't fall for that trick

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So I just not only that they like to they like to kind of do rapid -fire questions

13:31

So before you can answer one question, they're off to another question That often does happen.

13:38

Yes And so you got it with that if someone does that drew the thing to do is to say, okay You just mentioned five questions.

13:44

Which one do you want me to answer? Right, and then when you answer that and they do it a second time, okay You just answer ask six questions, which one do you want me to answer next time and when you do that a couple of times?

13:55

Then you could say you notice that you just rapid -fire Questions I answer it you ignore the answer and rapid -fire more questions.

14:03

Are you actually interested in the answer? Because that's the thing you want to get to and you'll you often find out.

14:09

No, they're not Well, you also see, you know Christians that that happens to that get those rapid -fire questions

14:16

They think they have to answer every single question and then they end up getting flustered instead of saying hold on Like you like you just mentioned hold on Which one of those do you want me to answer right taking back control of the conversation?

14:29

yeah, and that's the thing that's a good thing to do when you're in the position as Drew's mentioning because What's what they're trying to do is get you to be flustered.

14:39

Mm -hmm. Just ask them which one's the important one and What you could do is say, okay, let's let me answer the one that's most important to you and then we'll take the others and You know, you'll see if you if you're

14:53

If that happens on the show, I usually try to take notes to write down all the questions So I have a record of them and and I can mention all the ones we never got to because they just kept going

15:03

So but so she's sitting there and she's like, well, I got an education. I said, well, what did your education teach you?

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She said that nothing in the Bible is true. I Was nothing not a single thing.

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It's all every single thing is wrong. Not even a place There's not a single thing right now clearly

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She's making that I could sit there and challenge that right, but I'm just like really not a single thing.

15:32

And now she had had it because she's she lost a couple of her, you know arguments that she was trying to make and What ended up happening

15:43

Was she just turns to feel in her, you know, this is the thing you're dealing with you're dealing with a person's pride she's gonna kind of lash so that as we're leaving because she knew we were leaving she can feel prideful and Like say that we're the big meanies and she says well

15:57

I don't like to be contentious and I had turned around to leave and I turned back to her and I said, oh, ma 'am

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That's not true. You love to be contentious. You started being contentious with us.

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You sat down here to be contentious You just don't want to be contentious with Christians that can actually answer for our faith because you notice

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You never answered for your faith And then we turned again and walked away, you know and and so what it is the the thing of this is is

16:28

I wanted to just point out the different things that Happen when you're having an exchange like that She was contentious, but she wants to claim that we are well

16:38

The reality was we're being very polite to her. I mean, I was just asking her questions and she was

16:46

Contentious she set up because she heard Peter having a conversation. I think she thought

16:51

I got these guys Well, Peter does this all day long in the gaming world?

16:57

Okay, if you want just go out check out missionary gamer on Twitch and and you can see or on YouTube he's got a ton of videos and you know and that was actually a neat thing

17:07

I'll segue into this before we get to head coverings, but It was neat seeing Peter has a different ability that that I can't do

17:15

When we're out on the street because he sees a bunch of kids and he goes Hey You guys like to play video games and a bunch of kids that turned away from taking a gospel track from him all turned back toward him

17:28

Suddenly he had their their interest. He was he has these, you know cards with his YouTube channel and These kids like to just watch other people play video games.

17:38

So he's like, hey check out my channel He's got X number of videos and views and subscribers, whatever and you know gets them

17:46

Now that was something they would take so that was kind of neat to be able to watch someone else have a totally different technique than I have and Watch and learn from him.

17:56

So that was kind of neat to do All right, so a couple comments I did see Melissa said

18:02

Drew you did a great job filling in for Andrew I think what she means by that is

18:08

It was easy Jason Jason Cave who is a member member means that he's paying he pays it at YouTube.

18:16

That's why he has a little Green thing there icon there at the end, but he says great job filling

18:24

Great job indeed for drew filling in. Thank you Let me that it means a lot because Andrew's shoes are really hard to fill

18:33

Especially with an audience that is so loyal so to be able to come in and Fulfill that time and have a great reception

18:44

It does mean a lot Yeah, well, I do appreciate you filling in. I think you did.

18:49

Well you you and and your co -host Chris Hough came in It gave me a chance to take a break

18:56

That's what you know I I was texting you while you were while you were out there and I Just making sure that that's what you were doing.

19:04

You were you were getting rest because it was much -needed Yeah, the ATV ride was maybe not as restful as I thought but I was glad that I got back on I Got the confidence to ride again.

19:15

It was good But did they have to wrap you in bubble wrap because I wasn't Jim and say make sure and I was wrapped in So somebody had said that to me like make sure you're wrapped in bubble wrap and I was gonna like to bust on my friend

19:29

Thomas Leo I was gonna go to Home Depot get a bunch of bubble wrap and like get out of my get out of the car like in bubble wrap and But no, it was a good ride we did like a 50 mile ride

19:43

I think 40 or 50 mile ride So it was some great views

19:49

Enjoyed it thoroughly. Let me bring in. Mr. Huff who's backstage? He's your I was gonna say he's your co -host on matter of theology, but he's actually the host and you're the co -host.

20:00

So Yeah So welcome

20:05

Chris, what's up, buddy? How are you? Good good good. So so I was

20:10

I listened to your Really really short episode that you guys did

20:15

I think it was your just thinking episode. Yeah. Yeah, we actually called them.

20:21

We're like, hey How do you get your episodes so long? And so they gave us a couple of pointers and you know, we just grabbed onto that Yeah, I figured

20:30

I figured this was my imagination Chris Huff was you know calls up and says

20:36

You know Daryl. Hey, just to let you know, you're not the only guys that can go three hours You Know, you know, it's funny about that man is we didn't we didn't

20:48

I mean we didn't plan on that but as as this topic as we were talking about this topic and Just over the last couple, you know or last week and a half.

20:59

I guess bro, right? Yeah, and And I I mean we were going back and forth on Marco Polo and in texts and stuff like that And I said dude, we should we should just do an episode on it.

21:08

He said let's do it and the thing is Sorry good, but the thing is is so Andrew you were mentioning all those other

21:16

Podcasts that we're doing episodes on head coverings. We had no idea that this was actually a topic that was going up right now

21:23

No, we we heard a local pastor that preached on this topic

21:28

And we were just like I don't know about that one So In multiple ways there is and I can't remember if it was on the

21:40

Christian podcast community or conversations that matter with John Harris But there is a book on head coverings.

21:49

That's recently come out. I Did not get a chance to order it because I was I was driving but I meant to But it goes through the history and so some of what you guys did in your podcast this person looked at it

22:03

Historically showing that head covering were very commonplace before the 60s with the feminist movement and you guys addressed the history of the feminist movement, so Yeah, actually linked to to a book in in our show.

22:19

That's a full of History stuff, but it also deals with it exegetically as well.

22:24

Yes, it may be the same book I have to look probably Jeremy Garner's book Melissa is saying talking of Anthony time on steroids

22:34

Those who don't know Anthony when Anthony used to co -host here if he ran the show

22:40

It always went longer than two hours and we we dubbed that Anthony time So three hours is

22:45

Anthony time of steroids It didn't feel like it man And and that was that that was the funny thing is I mean I think our longest show was almost two hours before that and that was a dead guy

22:55

Reader Society episode I don't we've done two hour shows. I'll have to go back. Yeah, I mean you gotta get we you know

23:02

For the record we bust on Anthony, but I think I have the longest unfortunately show on this

23:07

I think we did four and a half hours. Yeah I remember that on one and it was but it was still

23:13

I mean people didn't drop off. I mean people listen to the end And that was when we're dealing with that the church in Iowa You know, but because we didn't want to break that up we wanted to get everything in its

23:24

Context and that's why we went so long but people found that to be the one of the most valuable ones of that series.

23:30

So All right. So we got some comments coming in here some so Melissa says

23:36

Chris did a good job too. So I think we got that but Melissa Was asking

23:43

Andrew, how are you feeling always praying for you and your family and then the other Melissa Said did they find out why the double vision?

23:50

So let me just real quick give you guys a an update on my my medical condition and what's going on and how you could pray for for me because I could got some eats and prayer requests, so The double vision is actually we believe a genetic thing.

24:06

My father I guess has it as well I need to get special glasses, which I haven't been able to get yet because the insurance company promised to pay 30 or that The way

24:16

I have the insurance with them. I pay 30 % Coinsurance and they they pay up to $50.

24:23

Now you'd think on a lenses that cost of over $1 ,000 That means well 30 % 300 50 % of that's

24:32

I should pay 250 right the actual numbers 267 Well, they think that the 30 % is only on the first $50 so they tell me

24:41

I have to pay 915 Yeah big difference and so fortunately striving fraternity

24:50

Has a lawyer that we have on retainer and I said, hey, could you read through this and he goes? Well, yeah reading through this

24:57

Both are true. And so he's gonna write a letter going. How about you? Explain this and just pay the you know, the 70 % so we'll see how that goes

25:07

I'm waiting so that I can get these these glasses It it has been getting better, but it is quite frustrating on Long days like right now.

25:16

I've had a very long day Using my eyes a lot and and that strain causes the double vision to get worse.

25:23

So appreciate prayers there You can also be praying because some of you may know I was in an accident and while I was up in Idaho I discovered that the

25:33

Car is totaled. So we didn't we didn't even get to say goodbye to it. It's just gone

25:38

They picked it up the auto body shop took the bumper off and they said oh, yeah, this is My mechanic actually was couldn't couldn't believe that we were not injured more than we were

25:49

The whole frame was smashed underneath the floor was gone. Yeah, it was he said it was really bad

25:55

He's like, yeah, it was like, yeah, I'm really surprised you guys just walked away from that So but we have to find a new car.

26:02

So not fun when in the market where cars are quite Yeah, I know. Yeah, they are.

26:08

I mean junkers are going for five grand. Oh, yeah 2005

26:13

Ultima with with a hundred thousand miles plus on it Was going for late.

26:19

They put it up for like $4 ,500 and they I think they sold it in an hour and people are like you're putting it too low double the price

26:28

It's crazy. Thanks. So so yeah. Yeah, I was talking to one pastor. He actually told me he couldn't find a used car

26:36

He bought a new car his first new car ever and he said he could get it faster. It wasn't that was cheap

26:42

Yeah, it's that he could get it faster Yep So it was like, okay

26:49

Well, okay. So with that now, let's get into the issue of head covering. So I Was gonna read out of the you know,

26:58

New American Standard, but I know you guys are not into that I'm new American Standard.

27:04

I Know you but mostly LSB. Yeah You pretty close it's actually pretty close between the

27:12

New American Standard and the LSB. Hey Chris, who's the We're gonna hear a woman's perspective on this on your show.

27:19

Who's coming on tell him Chris. I told him It is a it is a secret, but it's a secret but but if you pay attention, it's actually not a secret

27:28

That's true. Andrew. If you pay attention to Facebook, it's really not a secret.

27:33

I'm just saying you want me to go on to Facebook, huh? you I'm just saying if you look at where the show hasn't been shared or who has you know, let me ask this

27:45

Does Aaron Coates wear head coverings? I I've seen some pictures with her with him on I know

27:54

I know she's listened to it Hey, yeah, because the first thing she said was three hours

28:00

She texted me. She was like three hours on head coverings I said, okay, but here's the thing do theology probably did more than that.

28:07

Probably We could have done more we didn't even get Yeah, they they don't

28:12

I think I think three episodes they did to dealing with the Issues and then one answering question.

28:19

So so let's Chris would you mind reading the passage? This is for folks if you have your Bibles if you are driving your car, please do not open your

28:28

Bible Just listen or pull over and read along with us. But first Corinthians Chapter 11 starting in verses 1 to 22 is the passage in total.

28:39

But yeah, we're doing 2 through 16. Yep. All right Alright God's Word says now

28:45

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions Just as I deliver them to you

28:52

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head of a woman and God Is the head of Christ?

28:59

Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying shames his head But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying shames her head

29:09

For she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have let her also have her hair cut short

29:20

But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut short or shave her head or her head shaved

29:26

Excuse me. Let her cover her head for a man ought To have not have his head covered her since he is the image and glory of God But the woman is the glory of man for man does not originate from woman

29:39

But woman for man for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake but woman for the man's sake

29:45

Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels

29:51

Nevertheless in the Lord neither is woman independent of man nor is man independent of woman

29:57

For as the woman originates from the man So also the man has his birth through the woman but all things originate from God Judge for yourselves.

30:07

Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a dishonor to him

30:17

But if a woman has long hair it is a glory for her for her hair is given to her as a covering for a covering

30:24

But if one is inclined to be contentious we have no other practice nor have the churches of God first Corinthians chapter 11 2 through 16

30:34

Okay. So first off very different reading between the LSB and New American Standard so I'm gonna have to look that up to see how they you know, there may be some key words there, but overall first off from a

30:52

If you're looking at a feminist Perspective you can see how this clearly would set off Red flags to a feminist.

31:00

All right this the overall so when we do interpretation and And we're gonna we're gonna disagree

31:08

I'm sure because I'm gonna give have a different view than you guys came to and and that's fine. We're gonna see whether you know, we either can iron sharpens iron convince one of or other of the of a different position or Or just be clearer in what we think the text says right so one thing we when we have a difficult text like this, the one thing

31:30

I often do is is to take the step back and say what's the overall thing because What people can make the mistake of doing is getting lost in the weeds

31:41

By majoring on the minors rather than majoring on the majors It's one of the things one of the things

31:48

I teach people to do in if you take my harmonious class that we have at striving fraternity Academy if you take that class

31:55

I teach fuel how to block diagram and the reason for that the reason that's important is you you indent the supporting

32:03

Arguments so that you have on the outside the main argument. So, you know what the main thing is and then the

32:10

Indentations are your adverbs prepositional phrases things that are supporting so you don't focus on the wrong thing

32:17

So with having said that the overarching idea here is male headship

32:24

Right. It's the federal headship of man Because if you don't recognize that I mean you're gonna have a problem, especially with verse 7, right?

32:34

Because they're gonna say what you know, so God made man only men in the image of God, but not women

32:41

Right. Well, he's saying that's in creation But so let's look at the overarching thing.

32:48

I think this will all agree with the overarching theme of this is male headship of dealing with the issue of The the roles that God has established from creation of men and women

33:01

Yeah, see I would say that the the main crux of this passage and Paul gets into it is the the principle of authority and subordination and And most importantly period

33:13

God's created order. We see those three spheres there in verse Verse three of God's created order and he works from importance

33:22

He starts with with the last one, of course that that that God is the head of Christ So, yes

33:30

Yeah, and and that's gonna be important because He so he's using this

33:35

I I think what Paul's doing is taking something that is known and accepted especially to a more

33:44

Jewish audience and Taking that into something. That's a new

33:49

Issue. So what do I mean? Well, if you read the context right after this, he's gonna go from head coverings

33:58

To giving instructions on Fractions in the church to how to handle the

34:05

Lord's Supper Now the Lord's Supper is new right that that didn't exist before Christ head coverings did

34:14

Right. This was was common It's common even today in Judaism where a a woman would walk into shul or what you'd call temple or synagogue and Have Basically a little doily that she would then put on her head now.

34:31

It's it is kind of interesting because Like when I was in Israel It was interesting to see when we went into the either a

34:43

Synagogue or the welling wall the men had to have their heads covered but not the women

34:49

But then there are other places where we had to reverse that like we went into some of the churches that were there the women had to be covered not the men, so This is this is a practice of the head coverings the overall theory the overall idea of it as Chris you mentioned is authority

35:08

Okay So with that, I think we all agree correct Where where we're gonna disagree on is what is that covering?

35:17

All right, and I think I mean You you tell me

35:23

I think maybe another place we disagree is is is it a practice for today? Well, is it ordinance for today as well?

35:30

Yeah. Well, I think that's gonna be Before we jump to that right because when we do interpretation

35:36

We want to deal with what the meaning the interpretation is before we jump to the application, right?

35:41

Because that would be application The question is gonna first be what's the head cover? So I'm gonna look at this and the position

35:48

I've had is that the head covering is hair Right because that's what is in the context mentioned

35:55

And so if it's if it's hair, well, I'm gonna say the if you can I know

36:01

Drew's like, okay, I'm ready for him If it's hair Then the question becomes well, what was the issue

36:09

Paul's actually dealing with there? because if he's dealing with an issue as As I believe if he was dealing with women who are rising up and saying hey we can shave our heads to show we're like Men to kind of like in the 60s where they're burning bras

36:25

I mean interesting that you guys on your show did the connection between the feminist movement in the 60s with this because I think that's a one -on -one correlation and What you had there was women standing up saying we're equal to men

36:39

We don't we don't need what the Bible says or what I drew that line, too I said it was similar to what to what was happening, correct?

36:47

Yeah, and I've said this that for years so it's not I mean I think I did a podcast on the rap report on my

36:52

Andrew Roberts rap report podcast where I went into this And so it's not nothing new that I'm saying that's like responding to your episode but if it's that then the issue is

37:06

Would we say well, it's it's only the head covering see I would say That what was wrong was them shaving their heads to say

37:14

I could be equal to a man I would say that's exactly the same thing women burning their bras saying we're equal to men

37:21

The the the idea is the same. So so is it is it the same today?

37:28

Well, it's gonna depend on our interpretation, right? I'm gonna say women standing up and saying

37:34

There's no difference in roles between men and women That would be something.

37:40

Oh look drew is trying to steal the show by putting a baby in the camera. What's up, Brett? He's got a

37:54

We're just waiting for mommy to get him. Yeah, it's bedtime for him. Oh, but he's having more fun being on the show and Well, I mean it was either look at the three of us or actually bring someone good -looking him

38:08

Yeah, and he looks just like his mama. So, you know, there you go smart man

38:15

So so I mean that's gonna be my view That I think that what you have here is repetition of referring to hair verse five

38:23

But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying is this grace to her head so it's

38:30

There's a connection here between the head covering and praying right but it says for She is one and the same as the woman who has her head shaved

38:44

Yeah, so now you're talking about the hair shaving her head right for woman does not cover her her head

38:52

Let her also have her hair cut off So so, you know, it seems there seems to be some connection here to the hair on her head and cutting it off So that's where I come to the the thing now when it comes to in verse 10 with the angels.

39:08

I'm sorry I'm not touching it. I studied it I'm like,

39:14

I don't know what that Same because it is one of those things where it's like, okay

39:20

What what we do know is that most likely the people in Corinth would have understood what he meant, correct

39:27

But we read that and we go it could be one of like eight different things

39:33

So which one is it? Well, right, but there still is a command cover your head because of the angels

39:39

I like the line that dr MacArthur drew if you if you if you research in his commentary what he said about that is he he drew the line in the

39:49

Correlation, I'm gonna take it a little just one step further But he drew the line in the correlation that angels in and of themselves are submissive creatures

39:57

That they have power. They have authority, but that authority derives from their submission to the Lord And when angels don't submit to the

40:06

Lord and rebel, well, we all know who those are That would be Lucifer. That would be demons. That would be

40:12

That would be that whole crowd and we know what's coming for them And so not to submit to the

40:18

Lord's created order not to submit to his commands Just just put you obviously in line with with the devil and and and so so that was yeah

40:28

That was what both drew and I came to is is just that you know that they they most likely knew exactly what Paul was talking about But then dr.

40:35

MacArthur drew that line and went back to Isaiah 6 and out with you know too they flew to you know cover their eyes and That they under they understand submission and they are submissive period so And that would fit within the context here of some correct

40:52

So I would be okay with that, but I still I would agree. I agree 100 % with you guys

40:57

I think the Corinthians understood what was said. Yes, but We're 2 ,000 years removed

41:04

Sometimes there we don't have enough information to know What specifically you're referring to right right now

41:13

But going back to to the view of the hair as as the head covering Mm -hmm

41:19

I would say I don't think that's the accurate view because the man is also told he needs to remove his covering and So that would mean if the hair is the covering a man would always continually be having to shave his head

41:31

But not only that once you get into the verse What verse was it the woman's hair is her covering 15 yeah

41:44

So so the word covering in 15 is only used one other place that specific

41:49

Greek word and it's in Hebrews Chapter 1 verse 12 where it's referred to as a mantle.

41:55

So it's something that is a display of her beauty So so the hair

42:01

Being talked about as a as a covering there is different than Paul telling the women they ought to cover their head

42:08

So he's using two different words so the actual covering of the hair would have to be a

42:15

Cloth covering or a fabric covering in that case. Why would it have to be a cloth or fabric cover?

42:21

What else what else would she cover it with? her hair But the head but that when he gets to the hair it's something different that he's talking he's describing it yes, but if he says that her hair because it says for her hair is given to her for a

42:37

Covering or as you say mantle so that's specifically that the hair itself Yeah, but he's using as an illustration like right is not this is not a woman

42:49

Does she not have also have long hair? Well, this is this is also an argument from nature So he makes several arguments in this in this passage he makes an argument from the created order an argument from the angels an argument from nature, which would be

43:05

Illustrative what he's doing right there and then an argument from church practice, which is in verse 16 So so the argument from nature is that if you even nature tells you that women have long hair and it's a mantle

43:18

It's a display of their beauty while men have short are not are supposed to have short hair but in the previous verses he talks about Specifically covering your head when praying and prophesying those are those are work are

43:35

Related to acts of worship, right? So so then the woman is putting on and taking off when she does these things she must put on Which means when she's not doing those things she can take off So it can't be the hair because she would have to put it have a wig to put on and take off constantly

43:54

Well, okay. So that becomes an interesting thing You mentioned the wig because that is actually the Jewish custom to wear a wig.

44:01

Yeah So so if you ever see an Orthodox Jewish woman You once they are married they no longer show their hair to anyone but their husband

44:14

They will wear a wig to cover their hair Because that's reserved to the husband. So actually the

44:20

Jewish practice is to wear a wig for the women But but we also got to remember he's not there's not just Jews in Corinth, right?

44:28

I did and so the culture in Corinth wasn't monolithic it wasn't just one thing because you had a

44:34

An entire group or community of different people with different cultural customs and in Corinth It wasn't uncommon for women to go around with their head uncovered

44:45

Yeah, it wasn't even during religious right right even when during religious gatherings and from you know

44:52

The research that both of us found it's like at the time the Jewish custom then was to have head and face covered

45:00

And then and then the Romans if you were a male priest you had to have your face covered

45:06

Yeah, so here's one of the things let me ask this in this passage, what do you guys

45:13

See as the prophesying that's mentioned, right? She's praying and prophesying so it's preaching so Yeah, so so I wouldn't say prophesying is preaching but But and this is the thing

45:30

What do those terms actually mean? And so one of the things that I did in our show was

45:36

I took us back to the Old Testament Where the first time the term prophesying is used in the set where we see it in the

45:43

Septuagint and From from the two passages. I looked at it seems as though well when prophesying happens

45:50

It's it's it's always connected with the Holy Spirit coming on someone but it can also but but that leads someone into an act of Worship like intense worship, right?

46:02

So women are to keep silent in the church We would say women aren't to be teachers and exercise authority over over a man so they can't be a pastor

46:11

And things like that, but they're not for It's not forbidden for them to worship right or testify or share the gospel or evangelize

46:22

Yeah, so prophesying can cover a range of different things. Yeah.

46:27

Yeah. So let me give that range for you So prophecy can mean to tell reveal foretell prophesy which is kind of you know, it's using the

46:39

English word to describe the English word, but To make inspired utterances

46:47

It also can be used to interpret to be an oracle

46:54

To tell forth so so it's not specifically just the idea of Scripture but it is it's the revealing of something.

47:06

It's it's to to deliver a message to expound It can mean to preach it can mean to herald if in that position sure

47:17

Yeah, you know and so so what did what did drew do folks? He went to clear scripture 1st

47:23

Timothy 2 12 and following to see that God Clearly delineates that women are not to be preaching

47:30

Therefore when you look at the the range of words here, the one thing we know is okay It's not referring to this because God's Word speaks on that So now we look at the other usage of usages of it and it could just mean to You know that that she's uttering truth or that she's you know, she's

47:54

The telling or revealing something Okay so it we use prophecy in English in a specific way that wasn't used so much in the the

48:09

Greek has a lot more Yeah, all right, correct Well, I mean even so so the way we use it now every time we hear the term prophecy or prophesying our minds are

48:21

Instinctively go to the charismatic movement. Well, I Think yeah. Well, maybe you're gonna say right there.

48:27

I was gonna say it always goes to telling the future Is that where you were going? Yeah. Yeah that yeah, that's what I mean

48:32

That's what I mean, but if you go back just a couple hundred years to the Puritans, right? Prophesying was still used to mean preaching.

48:40

Yeah. Yeah, so so this could be She's praying or reading scripture

48:46

That that could be sure. Yeah, okay Now there is there is a practice within Judaism where When you are praying or you are profit you're reading scripture

49:01

Okay, you you have it your talus I should have brought I should have brought mine for this show, but I didn't think of it

49:08

But what do you do you'd put that over your head? Right. Okay, and and what is the purpose of it?

49:15

And this is the thing I Even if we disagree on the head coverings being practiced of whether it's hair or some cloth that women should wear

49:25

One thing we all want to be in agreement on and walk away with is the purpose of this is

49:32

We're all under God's authority. Amen And God has established an authority roles between men and women, right?

49:40

That's the goal. So if if you get too far into discussing anything else you missed the point

49:46

Yep of the best in the majority the majority of our show was Specifically on God's created order and we unpacked each of those that God is the head of Christ Yeah, Christ is the head of man and the man is the head of a woman

50:00

We spent most of the time most of the time was it was verse three verse three and because that that is the the whole the whole crux of it and Yes agreed

50:09

Andrew. Yeah, and I mean that that's the one thing we have to we have to make sure because You know we get that wrong

50:19

You know Then we missed the point because you can have a woman that puts a cloth on her head.

50:27

Oh Still not submitting to her husband. Absolutely exactly. Yep, and this passages for her right, so I Want to make sure we don't get into the legalism of saying oh, it's you got to do this when the reality is

50:42

The idea submission. So let me well Yeah, let me say this to you drew and I talked today about this and we didn't we didn't come right out and say this

50:50

In the episode, but neither one of us are in the place where we think that if you don't If you don't if women do not physically wear a covering on their head then they're in sin, right

51:01

So I want to make that clear. Yeah Yeah, and even even in our show when when

51:07

I was going through Just kind of some opening remarks. I read off a tweet from Brian.

51:13

So Bay Which basically says, you know We don't we don't force women in our church to do this

51:21

We're not trying to to proselytize women to do this. We don't we don't side -eye them We just cheerfully set the example and if they ask then we just give a reason as to why we do it and leave it at that now

51:37

We did have some questions here that maybe we could just touch on because I think some of them are

51:44

Tracy asked this one. Where is that in nature? So the question is where do we see this?

51:53

head covering In in nature now, I think my position I'll give mine

51:59

I think that we we could look at lions versus lionesses and you see the long hair versus short hair

52:08

So you do have some species where you have that in nature? I don't know where we have

52:16

Females wearing a cloth in nature, but I'm gonna let true answer that Well, I mean

52:22

I mean Paul what he's doing in verse 14 is he's just he's saying does not even nature itself teach that if a man has long

52:31

Hair, it is a dishonor to him. So so whether I see it or not Paul Paul saying right here

52:38

Nature teaches it's a dishonor to men to have long hair now

52:44

Personally, I wish I could grow long hair I Wish I had hair period.

52:51

That's right Obviously that that hair growth thing that you know, Anthony I were doing is has not been helping you

53:00

You waited too long you waited till you lost it all yeah, that's that's the problem

53:05

I should have started when I was in high School. Yeah. Yeah when I should have started 20 years ago.

53:11

I should have started three years ago, and I would have been a bit But but but then he continues on if a woman has long hair it is her glory right and we can actually connect this

53:26

We can connect this argument from nature into all the way back to just how how

53:32

God created Man and woman right manhood and womanhood because When women are supposed to have long hair it's natural for them to have long hair that's what

53:49

Paul's teaching now, I don't under I may not understand why but That's what

53:55

Paul is teaching from from nature from from the created order from God's creation of manhood and womanhood

54:03

Women are naturally to have long hair and men are naturally to have short hair because he said he's saying it

54:09

I'm not saying it. He's saying it because for a man to have long hair is a disgrace Okay, okay

54:18

So I Mean, let me add something to that real quick. I would I would say to that that the God I read this in in a commentary

54:26

I don't remember which one it was now, but That nature itself. I mean this was this was

54:32

Something written back in the 1870s, but it was that nature itself is God and and what what

54:37

Paul is referring to here Is is what what what the Lord has done for the male and female?

54:44

Sexes there is a distinct difference between male and female and one of the distinct differences that you see

54:50

Long hair and short hair specifically for men And so the point that I drew out when and talking about that in the episode is is and I didn't actually you know

54:59

What it's in my notes, but I didn't say it, bro Let the men be men and let women be women.

55:05

Let them be masculine. Let the women be feminine and Well, well, here's

55:11

John Christopherson and what he says nature is referring to He says the business of whether to cover one's head was legislated by nature

55:19

Referring to verses 14 and 15 when I say nature, I mean God that's what he is

55:25

The one who created nature take note Therefore what great harm comes from overturning these boundaries and do not tell me this is a small sin

55:34

So now John Christopherson goes as far as to saying if you don't this is a sin I'm not gonna cross that line

55:42

Okay, so we got we got a couple things first off D says from earlier drew hair is overrated drew

55:51

So you can feel better Melissa Melissa said it just got Andrews test instead

55:59

You know the place where it really comes in thick is on my face. I do grow a massive beard.

56:05

Yeah Kate KT says because men are not supposed to look pretty

56:11

Men make some ugly women. Can we just can we all agree on that? Ugly women

56:19

Okay, Tim R says yeah, but Jesus had long hair haven't you seen the pictures lol he was

56:25

Caucasian too. Yeah The black

56:31

Hebrew Israelites have a black Jesus so so there you go So there was a question we had here

56:39

Where was it? Yeah here from Frank he said so does a woman need to be in submission to a man to pray or Do all women in Christ have

56:54

Christ as her head covering? Just like the rest of the church the Bride of Christ So I think he's making he's asking a question of so does a woman to pray does she need to be under submission of a

57:10

Man, and I guess the man being either her father or husband Or or all women just under Christ and and they could pray that way

57:23

I'm I'm not sure I that so my position.

57:29

I'm not sure that I fully understand the question. So I'll say that for the record But I think

57:34

I understand the question, but I kind of think you're I don't know I kind of in hairs.

57:39

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean the answer to that question is is okay But let's say there's a woman out there whose father is dead and is not married.

57:47

Does that mean she can't pray? No Yeah, man. Yeah, the problem is there's different situations to put the question that the question can flow in And so you'd have to answer that question for every possible situation.

58:00

Well, okay, and that's that is a good thing because you know,

58:06

I Wanted to address that as well. There was a here D had said I don't think

58:11

Paul's laying down a universal principle That Christian women should worship with their heads covered the reason

58:17

I brought the the universal principle now If this is if it is like Frank was saying right scriptures given the universal principle that universal principle is

58:31

It you know where she's saying the the worship with the heads covered I think it is a principle that women have to have their you know, she have their head covers

58:39

The question becomes what is the head covering? What's it? What's that pointing to? What is it a universal principle saying about women's relationship to men?

58:49

That's not the the purpose Okay because as Melissa here is saying what about a

58:55

Nazarite vow and That'd be a fair people where man is gonna see her as hey for folks who don't know what a

59:01

Nazarite vow is Nazarite vow You're basically going to when you do that vow you are going to Have three things one.

59:12

You don't touch dead things two. You don't eat. You don't drink fruit of the vine three You don't cut your hair, right?

59:18

But before you take that vow typically you'd shave your head and after the vow is done

59:24

You shave your head and that symbolizes that the vow began and ended so What the person is gonna complete his vow and then he can't worship that that's that way so that the the thing

59:39

I'm gonna say is that I I believe the the universal teaching here is the idea of Federal headship submission to authority.

59:50

That's the universal agree Head coverings is the example It's gonna because that same authority is gonna get into the issue of the

59:58

Lord's Supper in the instructions. He's gonna give next So he's laying the groundwork here with something.

01:00:06

I think they agree with so I think the head coverings is the example So we shouldn't focus too much on the head covering miss the main thing

01:00:13

I keep saying that because that's what most people do when they come to this passage Sure focus on the details of head coverings, correct?

01:00:19

Now Every every possible scenario because I think it's a general principle.

01:00:25

Sure. It's like the Proverbs the Proverbs are Generalization, they're not gonna answer every little detail.

01:00:32

Sure. Now. I do think that Paul is laying out An ordinance here that is to be followed by by his use of the term tradition and so One of the things we covered is that we think the

01:00:49

KJV actually translates tradition correctly and saying ordinance and The reason we say that is if we this word tradition

01:01:00

Verse Verse two because he did mention that on the podcast. I thought that And I liked how you had to throw a caveat that you know, you you're not

01:01:10

Kings only You always got to clarify when you But but this word it's used 13 times in the

01:01:20

New Testament So eight times it's used by Jesus and every time Jesus uses it

01:01:25

He means traditions of men so something that humans develop Trying to impose on someone else to say you must follow these things, right?

01:01:35

Two times it's used by Paul in the same way so those times would be in Galatians 114 where he says he was zealous for his ancestral traditions and Colossians chapter 2 verse 8 where he says

01:01:49

Don't be held captive by through empty philosophy Deceptions according to the traditions of men, but three times he uses it to mean ordinance

01:02:00

So he uses it once here and then twice in second Thessalonians.

01:02:05

So second Thessalonians 2 15 so then brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught and Whether by word of mouth or by letter from us and then in second

01:02:19

Thessalonians chapter 3 verse 6 now We command you brethren in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ So that's important.

01:02:26

We command you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you keep away from every brother

01:02:33

Who leads an unruly life not according to the traditions which you received from us now the way to tell whether or not?

01:02:40

it's a tradition of man or an apostolic teaching is when it's the apostolic teaching

01:02:45

Paul always says The tradition that you received from us

01:02:50

From the Apostles or in in the case of our text that they received from directly from him

01:02:57

Well, and he's praising them. He's not he's not admonishing them They're rebuking them and he's saying that they hold to those those traditions those ordinances firmly

01:03:05

They have a firm grip on on the traditions They know them here and this is where where drew and I actually kind of differed on the episode and you heard it is

01:03:15

I? Think he's saying, you know it, you know orthodoxy. You're just not practicing it You're not you're not allowing your orthodoxy to influence your orthopraxy

01:03:25

I said I said I think they They do know it and they're doing it

01:03:30

They just don't understand why they're doing it and so then in verse 3 Paul gets into but I want you to understand because otherwise

01:03:37

If they know it, but then they're not doing it then there would be no need to praise them for it

01:03:43

Yeah, let me just for the we get Brad backstage Brad if you want to come in just put your camera on or Send us a private chat in the private chat.

01:03:55

Let us know what your question is So, let me see so we got some other ones

01:04:01

Okay, so Facebook user and by the way, if you don't want to be known as Facebook user Which you know,

01:04:08

I wouldn't want to be associated with Facebook as my name, but that's okay You could go to a Paul Jack's live .com

01:04:14

and there are instructions to allow Facebook to use your name So do that a few weeks ago. I commented in this it just said

01:04:20

Facebook user drew didn't know it was me, right? Yeah, and so need a Facebook user is saying if we allow head coverings

01:04:27

Then will we start greeting one another with a holy kiss? Okay, we address this go for this we addressed it, okay, so so Addressing someone with a holy kiss that would be called an obscure passage

01:04:41

Yes, because it's mentioned, but it's not explained as to the purpose of that now

01:04:47

This right here in 1st Corinthians chapter 11 verses 2 through 16

01:04:52

Paul lays Paul mentions X and explains and defends the practice through 15 verses so Why does

01:05:03

Paul feel the need to give a 15 verse apologetic if it if it was something that?

01:05:10

Was not relevant or just cultural So, holy holy kiss it's just an obscure passage

01:05:17

Yeah, and as as D saying here, there are many cultures that that you greet with it with the holy kiss

01:05:22

You know may not be comfortable for some I'll put it this way my bride

01:05:29

You comes from Hong Kong, they're not a culture that would be hugging Kissing even on the cheek.

01:05:36

It's a different culture when she met my family You know or even

01:05:43

Americans in an American church where everyone's hugging she was not comfortable with it So, all right, so let me

01:05:51

Bread has a question for you guys He must have listened to your episode because his question has to do with something you said in the episode

01:05:59

So he doesn't want to be a camera, but Brad welcome Hey guys, can you hear me? Yes, we can.

01:06:05

Perfect. Perfect. And by the way, you look better than the three of us right now Seriously doubt that But yeah,

01:06:16

I just wanted to just just to Just to discuss what you guys had brought up Drew I'm actually the guy that you're been chatting with on Instagram.

01:06:27

Okay? Okay. Nice. Yeah. Yeah a great conversation You're asking really good questions.

01:06:34

Yeah. Yeah, it was basically because I like I like Until I listened to the just like I said,

01:06:41

I listened to bits and pieces of the episode and I had never really done any Any research into this or of any kind but and I I'd you know

01:06:51

I feel like as far as the things that I've heard and not to say that anybody's You know that you guys are way off or anything like that, and I really appreciate you guys and stuff

01:07:03

So I've just wanted to say that from the outset, but there's the thing that kind of struck me Just in the little bit that I heard in the episode that just it did give me a little bit pause for concern was

01:07:12

I know Chris. I think you had said that you know that this issue was not Not a secondary issue

01:07:19

Yeah, I was specifically referring to the fact that this is rooted in the created order

01:07:25

And if you if you miss God's created order as a professing

01:07:30

Christian, that's a primary issue Right what I meant? Well, I think maybe what

01:07:36

I had come taken away from that maybe like I said, maybe I didn't listen or if I didn't catch the Them You know rest of the episode or if you if you'd mention it and stuff was more or less

01:07:47

What popped in my brain was, you know, okay, if it's not It's not a secondary issue Does that mean then are you saying that this now is a gospel issue and if a woman doesn't wear head covering?

01:07:57

Then then then he's then she's in serious I like I said I just wanted to ask for clarification because that's at least what came to my mind was that if it's not a secondary then

01:08:08

But you know, are you then? Then I'm guessing would be a primary issue and then then that would call into question

01:08:15

Then it's a gospel issue and then but women if a woman doesn't wear a head covering to church Then you know are all these late, you know, a lot of so many godly women

01:08:23

Are they in sin is my wife in sin and stuff like that? And just that just kind of it just raised just raised a red flag that I just wanted to get some clarification on Okay, I'm sorry, maybe

01:08:36

I just didn't Get the business pieces. Yeah, and in your you know your comments as well you listed off some godly women, you know, and some of which we know and You know, and that's the thing.

01:08:49

So In terms of you know, is it sin? You know, that's why

01:08:54

I asked you kind of those those following questions is like well isn't it isn't an ordinance or is it not right if it do you view it as as Paul Paul saying this is commanded by God or do you not view it as Paul saying it's commanded by God because we can disagree

01:09:10

On both of those and still be in fellowship and you know, I'm not gonna throw anyone out of the kingdom

01:09:15

I don't have that right Yeah I think my thing was just thinking if you guys if you just like but I think

01:09:21

Chris you'd you just said I was thankful For you said as far as but you don't believe As far as what you guys hope, you know what you guys believe and stuff that those women or anyone

01:09:31

You know any woman that chooses not to wear a head covering to church that they are Actively currently in sin right now.

01:09:39

Yeah. No, I think I think because I I heard that to Brad when when Chris said it and I was like, hmm

01:09:46

He did explain it a bit I think I think really what he's getting to is what we were what we were discussing earlier here, right?

01:09:51

The main thing is the submission. So if a woman is willfully disobedient

01:10:00

And unsubmissive To her her husband That would be the the sin issue.

01:10:07

I agree And just to clarify We have you know, we talked about like a first tier second tier third tier type doctrines, right?

01:10:17

first tier doctrines are Things that are we hold strongly to but that doesn't necessarily mean gospel

01:10:25

Issues, let me just give a clarification there for you and for others We say it's a gospel issue.

01:10:32

What we're really saying is this is required to be regenerate, right? So when someone says, you know baptisms a gospel issue that it means

01:10:41

That baptism is necessary to be saved to be regenerate

01:10:47

So the the guys clearly we're not saying you have to wear a head covering to be saved So clearly was not a gospel issue even if they're saying it's a first tier issue

01:10:58

It's not a secondary doctrine. It's a primary doctrine. Yep That doesn't mean

01:11:04

They're saying you're going to hell if you don't believe it or practice it, right? Maybe that's just a misunderstanding in my part because yeah,

01:11:13

I just I guess maybe I assume and maybe I just write Like I said, I didn't I didn't know more or less with you know, cuz thinking secondary

01:11:22

Territory or you know secondary and you know third Tertiary tertiary. Yeah tertiary and then going to first.

01:11:29

I thought that basically means you're you're you're dabbling into the core of Christianity Yes, so soon, you know what?

01:11:34

I mean? We try to do on this maybe a misunderstanding Yeah, we we try to on the show is define terms, right?

01:11:40

So so I like my first pastor defined it this way your your primary doctrines are your beliefs?

01:11:48

In other words, these are things I will die for Christ is God. Someone wants me to deny the deity of Christ Kill me.

01:11:57

Okay Your your secondary doctrines are your convictions these are things

01:12:06

I hold firmly to but I'm not willing to die over and your tertiary doctrines are your preferences

01:12:14

I Like this over something else right and so maybe that would be a good way to see the the those different Levels with different words and some definition that might help but when we say gospel issue

01:12:31

What we're saying is this is necessary for regeneration. So I literally had someone

01:12:37

Who told me that? Drinking alcohol is a gospel issue

01:12:44

And I said Because he understands the term I said, are you saying? That someone must drink alcohol

01:12:52

To be regenerate. He said yes to prove they have dominion over it. Oh, I Remember you'd set tell him telling this.

01:13:00

Yeah, I said you are not saved Because you've added to the gospel when you say you need to drink alcohol to be regenerate

01:13:09

You have a different different guy, right? Okay, right, right, yeah

01:13:17

Right and I think yeah, maybe that was just a misunderstanding in my part and just yeah having that assumption that that's what you know

01:13:26

You're just thinking when it was not secondary that it was that it was something more and you know

01:13:31

Let me give you just a little example as well because while I I do believe that that head covering should be followed

01:13:40

I also believe that there is liberty within that ordinance, right? So when when to wear it, you know even what type what type of cloth or how big it should be and things like that, but also

01:13:54

Like because my wife does but she does she doesn't do it all the time all day She does it, you know corporate worship or she does it when she goes to work

01:14:04

But she also works in a hospital too, you know, so it keeps her hair out of her face and stuff but but let's say on on on on the

01:14:11

Lord's Day on corporate worship if she's got a really bad headache and she she can't Have things touching her head

01:14:17

And it's just so much pressure and pain well I'll tell her not to wear it because she won't be able it she won't be able to actually worship and she'll just be in more pain, right

01:14:29

So I'm looking after her in that way But as far as she can she'll wear it corporate worship or in the work.

01:14:40

I See, okay. Well, that's helpful. Yeah, that's yeah. I appreciate the clarification because yeah, of course

01:14:45

Yeah, like I said that just you know hearing that and yeah, just kind of just And then obviously

01:14:51

I guess my own Misunderstanding of not understanding that that primary issues

01:14:59

Aren't necessarily something of self if that aren't salvific You know that they're actually that you can have disagreements with it and still be you know

01:15:09

And you know not not being thin but something you right you have Like you said you hold too strongly and everything like that and I think that was just the thing was like are you are you you know, just what my mind was are you really saying that Women you know, these women are you know, whether it be yeah so much, you know tons of godly women

01:15:29

Are they in sin? Do they need to repent? You know just even even among those who who affirm and promote head covering?

01:15:39

You're gonna find a wide range of people probably some that will say this is this is a sin issue, right?

01:15:46

But then you're gonna find others that are gonna say no, this is secondary issue. This is tertiary issue that you know You're gonna find a wide range

01:15:55

Let me I'm gonna do this so I Searched on Christian podcast community org

01:16:01

I went there and searched for head coverings plural and there's a number of podcasts and actually do theology 57 and 58 showed up And I was looking for it because I knew that I had done a two -minute

01:16:14

Rappaport daily on this I had thought so why don't I play that? You know, I did these short ones so that we could play them when something comes in So I haven't listened to this in a long time.

01:16:25

This is from January 21st of 2019 That was a year that was a year before that C thing happened kovat, yeah, okay

01:16:39

So, let's see what I said, I don't I'm not sure what we'll find out You're really good at the drums

01:17:00

This week we're gonna take a look at some passages that people misunderstand Because they don't look at the context context makes it clear

01:17:07

The first one we're gonna look at is 1st Corinthians 11 5 and 6 This is dealing with head coverings and it says but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered

01:17:19

Dishonors her head since it is the same as if her head were shaved for if a wife will not cover her head

01:17:25

Then she should cut her hair short But since it is a disgrace for a wife to cut her hair short or shave her head let her cover her head

01:17:34

What is this talking about? well it makes it very clear that this is dealing with hair as far as the hair being short or shaved it was a practice at the time for women to shave their head to say or cut it short as If they are a man in rebellion to culture and male authority

01:17:51

Now this could also refer to a veil We do see that this is used this word for covering is used as a veil in other places

01:18:00

However, not everywhere other places. It just means to cover but it is sometimes used as a veil

01:18:06

Now what we end up seeing here is that it's from the context. This is talking about authority

01:18:14

That's the clear thing it is what is honorable or dishonorable what is

01:18:19

Graceful or really a disgrace and it is a disgrace for a woman to not have the authority

01:18:26

Under a man and for a man not to have the authority over a woman in this text That's the meaning of the text from the context context helps us understand its meaning

01:18:37

This podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker for a seminar to your church

01:18:43

Go to seven for eternity org. So four years and I haven't changed my view So, yeah,

01:18:52

I mean right there, you know that really is that that in two minutes I summed up what it took us an hour to discuss, right?

01:19:01

Well, it's easier to do that when you're not in conversation, you know say that again it's easier to do it when you're not in Conversation.

01:19:09

Well, I mean the purpose of those are to give quick answers to things So obviously we're not going to cover everything you guys did three hours.

01:19:16

I could do what you do in three hours and just But echo

01:19:24

Zoe radio had Michelle Leslie on Michelle Leslie, they also did a an episode and Brad actually linked it to me that I listened to today

01:19:38

On head coverings. So, all right. So there we got it.

01:19:43

What do you think of it, Drew? so they were making a lot of their their their positions were a lot of the cultural arguments the

01:19:56

The position that this was a cultural thing at the time But in our episode we kind of went through and showed that it actually wasn't a cultural thing we gave we gave evidences that show good because Well, well, let's let's get into that because there is

01:20:12

I mean we had D asked Wouldn't the cultural context matter? So that was a question.

01:20:18

So this came up You know, she also said would that be cultural tradition for the time?

01:20:24

So why don't you give your view of of that with the culture? It wasn't head coverings would have actually been countercultural because you you again you had

01:20:47

Different groups of people that lived in Rome and it wasn't uncommon for women to go around with their heads uncovered and a lot of the statues a lot of the

01:20:58

Even money from back then had women with their heads uncovered So it wasn't in a socially unacceptable thing for a woman to have

01:21:08

Her head uncovered. It was actually pretty pretty common So so and but not only that Paul's not even making an argument and culture

01:21:17

Paul's not saying I praise you for keeping the culture of Corinth He's making an argument from the created order and and from nature well, well, sorry to use your own work your own words there drew but He's making an argument first to from tradition

01:21:34

No, he's making from ordinance that he delivered to them which was an apostolic teaching that he got from God so what what

01:21:43

I'm gonna say is he's What I think when he's using the idea of tradition holds holds firmly to the tradition

01:21:50

Well, what tradition would that be that would come from Judaism and that this would be a cultural practice within Judaism well, well,

01:21:57

I think that's kind of reading into it because he's saying a Tradition that he delivered to them and so why

01:22:06

And so if he's delivering a practice of Judaism to them He would be no different than the

01:22:11

Judaizers that say you must do these things Well, no Does it say in the verse traditions like plural meaning that's more than just so yes

01:22:22

It could be more just as of some right So so so we can also say since since in the passage after 16

01:22:33

He goes directly into the Lord's Supper We can say that one of those traditions that he taught them or ordinances that he taught him to use the correct word

01:22:43

Was the Lord's Supper as well? Well, you're you're making the assumption that you're making me assume

01:22:52

Well, and also remember the Paul Paul is the is I mean specifically writing to Greco Roman culture

01:23:00

Like he is writing to them with the traditions like he's giving them traditions and ordinances that he has passed down Not just to them but to the churches of God the

01:23:10

Christian churches So it's it's it's it's not gonna be rooted and I think

01:23:17

I think it's clear It's not rooted in Jewish culture. It's not rooted in Roman culture It's not rooted in in the

01:23:22

Greco Roman culture there in Corinth this is a tradition and ordinance that Paul has handed down to the

01:23:28

Christian churches for the women and the men to Practice to show their submission to the created order and Paul solidifies that in verse 16 where he says

01:23:38

But if anyone is inclined to be contentious We have no other practice

01:23:44

Nor have the churches of God. So it's something that was also handed down to the other churches

01:23:51

Yeah, well I'm curious with that Oh Go ahead, Brett Okay, yeah,

01:23:58

I was just gonna say I Listened to a whole bunch of different things today like from I think

01:24:04

Owen Strand and Kosti ended an episode on this and just I'm just curious as far as y 'all stop when there as far as about that contentious where he says

01:24:13

Do you believe as far as with he's saying like this is something not to be contentious over? No Because I've heard that that argument as well

01:24:24

People saying, you know, if you just want to be contentious about this then, you know, just don't do it

01:24:29

Well, I don't think he's saying that good impression, bro. Thank you I think he's saying if this is the ordinance and if you want to be contentious about this

01:24:41

Well, the churches don't have any other practice This is the symbol that has been given for the woman to show as a display the

01:24:51

The submission not only to her husband, but also the what Chris was explaining the being rooted in Christ As our head and then

01:25:01

God is the head of Christ in that creation order back to first back to verse 3 So it's so he's because he just went through and explained why you do the covering

01:25:10

But if you have a contention about why we do the covering well, we don't have any other practice nor do the other churches

01:25:18

That's what I'm taking. Paul is saying Okay also if you caught at the end of Michelle and Amy's podcast were they or where she believed or I think what does she say on the lines of That it's as far as the the inner or more of the heart

01:25:37

Or as far as you know in the sense of like if someone, you know ask you you know, if you have a

01:25:43

Why don't you wear a head covering and why don't I said? For a lady she can say Yeah.

01:25:49

Well, what was funny? There's like a more or less going back to kind of like a With you know with humbleness with being you know

01:25:57

Yeah. Yeah, I forgot as far as the verse that she was referencing but more the adornment of the heart almost, you know

01:26:03

Yeah, and so one of the things I thought was funny that that Michelle said was when some feminists ask you

01:26:09

Why don't you wear your covering you say I do why don't you you know? And she's talking about I laughed out loud when she said it because what she's talking about is she's talking about Christ as as the covering

01:26:21

Christ Authority as the covering over here now, I I I just don't agree with that, you know as we see it in the text

01:26:31

So, but I love Michelle Dearly, I love Michelle Leslie. Yeah.

01:26:38

Yeah Same same and she has a better position than yours drew.

01:26:43

So no We know who isn't gonna be the the woman on matter of the

01:26:55

We eliminated one we only got we only got you know, four billion left to go But you know what

01:27:02

I have since since we first met Michelle in what year was it 20 20 20 20 20.

01:27:10

Yeah when we first met Michelle, I wanted to have her on I'm just trying to find the right topic to have her on to talk.

01:27:17

Yeah and Women's ministry wouldn't be it That's too easy for man.

01:27:23

We need a hard one Well, let me have her on to correct you on this topic just saying

01:27:30

Because we're already here to correct you. That's why oh Well, you're not doing a very good job my friend

01:27:39

I Mean, come on How can you disagree? With what

01:27:45

I said about how the the covering can't can't be her hair I mean, it doesn't make sense for it to be her hair

01:27:53

It just doesn't make sense with the passage. It does it Okay, so he just made an argument it doesn't make sense that that's like the

01:28:01

Democrats saying it doesn't make sense that Trump didn't break The law you just compared it to it Arguments like it doesn't make sense.

01:28:12

Come on sport the argument Okay A little bit below the belt

01:28:27

Yeah, wait, who is it that there was that I don't know if you guys saw the Democrat That was challenged on CNN and like so unexpected that they're gonna be challenged.

01:28:36

I got up and walked off Like how dare you you're not supposed to challenge me you're supposed to just give me softballs.

01:28:46

Oh, I do like Melissa Owens comment right here. Chris and Drew should have

01:28:51

Beth Moore on. Oh, I would listen Have Beth Moore on She wouldn't come.

01:28:59

Oh, she's already blocked me But it even if there wasn't the case she wouldn't come on I would you know,

01:29:08

I'd be happy to have her on but I'd be happy to correct her. So All right.

01:29:15

So let's look at some of the questions that came in First Corinthians 11, is that the only place in the

01:29:20

New Testament where head coverings are discussed? Yes Yeah now and so the answer this is yes

01:29:29

But does that mean That we need more than one passage To give us a doctrine.

01:29:36

No, no Now is there a difference just because this is one passage and drew you mentioned one where there's a reference to only one thing

01:29:45

I usually use a different one baptism for the dead. There's one reference for it There's only one verse but when it mentions that that's not the main thing right, and so We're not gonna build a whole doctrine like the

01:30:00

Mormon Church does to try to develop that I Wanted to mention something.

01:30:06

I don't know if you and if any of you all heard I listened to Steve Lawson talk about this and kind of giving reason he gave kind of reasons, you know for the doctrine and against and what

01:30:19

I think one of the things he said against was I think on the lines of that Of this point that it's the only time that we see it

01:30:27

And that more or less what we want to see is, you know Jesus teaching it it being shown, you know are showing up in acts and then you know,

01:30:35

I guess I Guess clarified in the epistles kind of like and I think he gave the example foot washing where Jesus Well, if it was an ordinance, we would have that That was

01:30:49

I thought was intriguing as far as Yes, the other foot washing not being carried over from into the acts and then the epistles and then kind of that was one thing

01:30:59

He had mentioned so I just was curious if y 'all had heard Yeah, so when we talk about an ordinance you just described what we usually define as an ordinance, right?

01:31:06

Jesus commands it We see the disciples practicing it see the disciples instructing on it.

01:31:12

So That's why we would say baptism and the Lord's Supper. We see Jesus practiced it

01:31:19

Disciples practice it disciples instructed on it That's an ordinance baptism the same thing but foot washing we don't we see

01:31:27

Jesus practicing it But we don't see it being instructed by the disciples Jesus also says

01:31:34

I'm doing this as an example. So it's an illustration of service out of a out of an actual cultural example because People wore sandals you walked around in the dirt and you would have foot washers at a house to clean the dirty feet

01:31:52

And so he's saying you need to to humble yourself to the point of a servant

01:31:58

To love up in in your loving of others Okay, so drew your homework assignment is to go back to the beginning of this show when we talked about this head covering being illustration because you just made my point

01:32:13

I think But that's about Washing is not is not the same as as this because because so so now let's see

01:32:26

So you're talking about right? Practices practice what head coverings

01:32:34

So in order for Jesus to practice it it So Jesus has to practice it or teach on it

01:32:40

Then the disciples teach on it through the book of Acts and then it and then it gets explained Clarified and or yeah,

01:32:48

I think in the so can we apply that same standard to 1st Timothy chapter 2 verse 12

01:32:56

First Corinthians 1st Timothy chapter As far as what women not being pastors

01:33:05

Can we apply that same standard? Did Jesus teach on that and did and then the disciples go out okay, so we back up a sec

01:33:14

Well, I first off I'm not saying that that's an ordinance. So I have no

01:33:20

Okay, what is it? That's that's a doctrine Okay Well, we're the head covering not be a doctrine

01:33:29

I mean you're it sounds like Saying it I would have no problem saying it's doctrine, but I would say the doctrine is submission to authority

01:33:37

And the head covering is an illustration of how that's carried out but So so God gives you a symbol to show your your submission

01:33:49

He says this is the symbol for the woman to show your submission So do you follow it or not follow?

01:33:59

well, I'm We're addressing you're the one saying that the word is ordinance and not tradition.

01:34:05

So yeah, right In ordinance to follow the symbol which which displays your authority your submission to authority

01:34:14

So that so then the question follows do you follow it or do you not follow what God has said?

01:34:20

Oh, yeah No, I follow it because we remember it's about submission. I major on the major and he gave yeah

01:34:27

But but that's like I asked Chris right on a plane. What's the most important bolt or nut or joint, right?

01:34:34

Lucis at the at that moment no matter how big or how small

01:34:39

So so even the small things you got to make sure that those things are tightened up So your plane doesn't fall apart.

01:34:45

And so Let's let me give you the danger though. And I know that Chris is gonna yell at me for this

01:34:53

Comparison, I'm sorry but When we take something that's supposed to be an illustration and make a doctrine of it.

01:35:03

I'm sorry drew I'm just gonna say it. Yeah, I'll ask your forgiveness up front, but that's what

01:35:09

Layton flowers does right? He takes parables And makes liberal and Layton flowers all the last 30 minutes

01:35:20

But no Andrew this is the thing though because because he's not just giving an illustration of the head covering

01:35:29

He's saying you ought to cover your head, but he says that that he says over and over he refers to it as hair

01:35:37

No, he only in one point. Does he refer to it as hair? But because before the angels you must cover your head.

01:35:46

Hold on. Hold on only one place Let's let's check this in one place verse five.

01:35:51

The woman is Given to her for her covering As in verse five it talks about the same as a woman whose head is shaved verse six it says

01:36:04

Let her also Have her hair cut off No, I'm referring to the hair as the covering.

01:36:12

Yeah, that's what I'm referring to. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and so There's only one spot in here where it says her hair is her covering

01:36:20

You're talking about if she doesn't want to follow this practice she is Then she should shave her head

01:36:28

Yeah, but if it doesn't want to cover her head, then she should shave her hair, but in the context

01:36:33

I'm gonna argue that the reference the covering is in the context of her hair

01:36:41

So that in the context no Easy No, because when he's talking about covering he's using a verb which is something you must do

01:36:52

He's not using a noun saying your hair is your cover in in those other places

01:36:58

He only uses that to say you're in in verse 13 to see that say that your your long hair is your covering?

01:37:05

All right, but then that word is a different word that he uses which which as I said earlier is from Hebrew We can see in Hebrews chapter 1 which in nature the hair is given as a display of her beauty

01:37:18

But in the other verses he's saying you must cover it's a verb. He's saying you must do the action in more specifically verse 6

01:37:30

Let her cover her head. That is an imperative not just a verb.

01:37:35

It's right. Yeah So that becomes quite interesting. Thank you for making my point.

01:37:42

Yeah the Look It's not about which one of us is right or wrong.

01:37:50

It's about what the text says. Sure, right, right and and that's the thing we want to make sure and By the way,

01:37:58

I'll just state the reason I know it's an imperative is because I use logos

01:38:03

Bible software and I keep my I have I have My color code so that every imperative is in red bold Every definitive.

01:38:13

Can you program that in there? Yes, I can. I have a video on how to do that, but You don't like the basic program.

01:38:21

Yeah, it's with virtual the the visual filters okay, and so the reason

01:38:26

I did that is so that when I So if you if folks if you don't have logos I'll tell you how you can get it or or at least upgrade and get five free books go to our affiliate page with logos

01:38:40

Just go to logos .com slash SF e logos .com

01:38:45

slash SFE You'll get five free books on from striving for eternity that you could pick but at the same time you get this software

01:38:52

So so what what does it allow what I did was I color code these things. So when

01:38:57

I'm reading the text I Immediately know commands It's just something

01:39:05

I wanted to know the imperatives and I want to know definitive articles so I just color -coded those and so what you do is you create a document called a virtual visual filter and Then you can you can do a whole bunch of things with it and So I do have a video at striving fraternity org on on to training videos in logos

01:39:25

So it'd be video number two, so it's the second one I did but Yeah, the have her cut off is an imperative let her cover is an imperative and Then the third imperative is the verse 13 judge for yourselves

01:39:44

So judges is an imperative Now it is interesting because the number of times where we see his head or her head

01:39:56

Is a definitive article Not sure what to make it I'm just pointing it out the angels are definitive is a definitive article but Which there's been there is an interesting quote about about because of what type of angels they were and I forgot who said it but the quote reference that every time

01:40:22

You see the or when Paul talks about the angels the definitive article is there like The heavenly angels he uses the definitive article, right?

01:40:31

So someone just posted a question a comment It's you know, just because of who her husband is.

01:40:38

We got to put this What's up, Lacey Lacey's Wife of one of my favorite preachers not my favorite preachers

01:40:49

That's Jamal's man, but one of my favorites Brandon Brandon is a man his his sermons are

01:40:58

Fire, they're on point. They're pure So he says hi guys she says sorry hi guys chiming in Andrew Verse 15 is not the same as a covering that covering is the first time the

01:41:15

Greek word for covering Her hair is given to her as her glory and the only glory that should be on display in worship

01:41:26

Worship service is God's hence the man who is the glory of God verse 7

01:41:33

So that supports your view Yeah, I already knew her view. Yeah Lacey are you coming on to matter of theology?

01:41:44

No, you're not allowed to ask any more questions All right, so Facebook user said this

01:41:54

This was much earlier but said me too Julie referring to Julian he said glad to hear you guys discuss this

01:42:03

But I need to sleep and have have to listen tomorrow so far. It sounds like Andrew has the

01:42:10

Andrew has it wrong though. Okay, so Drew's like Let me tell you okay one being the only post mill on this show

01:42:20

Okay, it's so refreshing to have someone say Andrew. You're wrong People say that all the time and I don't mind.

01:42:28

I Mean, I say it all the time, but no Well, the issue the issue is and I know drew you're gonna you're not you're gonna agree with this

01:42:36

I mean for me the issue is it's It's basically what what do

01:42:41

I believe the text says I don't if I'm wrong Fine, then then I get corrected and I change that's what we should do but Especially as you know,

01:42:54

Brad was mentioning the secondary issues. I think the primary issue here and we all agree submission right mission to authority secondary issue what is the covering and I think that is the when we get to that detail

01:43:11

We're I think that's a secondary issue and we agree to that We can disagree still be saved and not be in sin, right?

01:43:18

Definitely and That is where when we look at these things if It's a major issue.

01:43:26

I better get it, right Right. Yeah, these minor issues if If we're wrong on this, we'll be corrected in heaven

01:43:36

Is but when people make an issue of it, that's like if someone says Oh, you can't come into the church because your head's not covered.

01:43:42

Right, right. So I got a question so What with primary issues secondary tertiary?

01:43:50

Is there then another is there than another category just core issues core primary secondary tertiary or how does that?

01:43:58

How does that work again? Wait, I guess with when you're saying core. I'm saying that primary issues.

01:44:03

This is God Are Things that are clearly taught in Scripture that You know, some of them would be gospel issues.

01:44:14

In other words, if you're not believing in them, you're not saved, right? You're gonna get some of that so it comes to What some of them are but they're gonna be something that's clearly taught in Scripture and we should die for Okay, yeah, that was that's the that's the trouble

01:44:35

I'm having or maybe that this as far as being able to have almost a category in of itself because it's like yeah, like I said just with the with with you know going into primary and stuff to be able to Differentiate between right being being you know needing to believe this in order to be saved versus something you're willing to die for But still, you know have you know not being sinned and you know and believing or you know

01:45:04

Somebody can believe something different but still be a primary. That's kind of I guess maybe hard for me to be able to Conviction, that's good.

01:45:11

That's a secondary issue, which is conviction. I hold very strongly to something So I guess

01:45:18

I could even see The specifics of whether the head covering his hair versus a cloth

01:45:25

I could even maybe see that as a tertiary issue Chris and drew then you guys would say you're willing or I guess would fall in the category of Willing to die for this issue or a strong conviction.

01:45:38

I Could you I guess I'm just curious. Well, let's be let's be specific because there's two issues here.

01:45:45

Okay? I think all three of us Have a belief primary issue

01:45:52

I'm willing to die for that We are under the submission of Christ and he has created an order from creation

01:46:00

Amen, yes, amen with men and women and how that should be set up. That's that is something

01:46:06

I think we'd all Amen primaries. Okay, I would yeah,

01:46:11

I think what? Uh, Chris was saying on the show is secondary would be

01:46:18

Head covering I might say it's tertiary. I don't know if you guys would say it's secondary or tertiary

01:46:24

But what that head covering is specifically,

01:46:29

I think a Conviction or belief? Yeah, or just just the core just you know, should a woman

01:46:37

Wear a head covering a church or not secondary and they get it's getting to what that head covering is

01:46:44

Right because if it's her hair Right now here here becomes the thing a woman's going through cancer.

01:46:51

She's You know, she loses her hair or shaves it off because she it's all falling out.

01:46:56

Okay. Does that mean she can't worship? Some would say well she puts a wig on and you know, but you know

01:47:04

The the issue again is I'm gonna say that the the the exact the head covering is an example

01:47:13

Right, but this is what we end up focusing on and this is why I keep coming back to it and it's not

01:47:20

For any other purpose then I don't want us to lose sight of the main thing, right? Which Andrew that's why in the episode literally

01:47:29

I have 21 pages of notes and and 19 of them are all on verse 3

01:47:38

Because that's that that's the issue. The issue is submission to God's created order and authority period whether or not

01:47:48

Brad to answer your question whether or not I As far as the head covering a physical covering a cloth

01:47:56

Covering on a woman's head. I I would personally where I am with that right now.

01:48:01

I would put that as a secondary issue Physical covering part Now now

01:48:07

I would say that I'm I would love to see it I would love to see more of it as it represents as it represents that woman's submission and understanding the created order of God Definitely.

01:48:19

I don't I wouldn't have a problem with that either. I think it was just that's helpful in what you said as far as just I think yeah, there was there's two categories in there and stuff and yeah,

01:48:29

I Be honest, I missed it and forgive me for not catching man. No, no, no, no forgiveness needed brother.

01:48:36

You're good. It happens I mean, so so let me just let me share my screen. This is this is my my logos, right?

01:48:43

So you can see my red and my blue. Let me take this out of the way, but you see there's only one verse highlighted there

01:48:50

Yeah in this passage, right? What is it? What Chris just said verse 3, right? Yeah, that's the main thing

01:48:57

That that's why I did what I did in my highlighting is to show that And let me let me do that jump in and say this too

01:49:05

I think you know and drew brought this up and brought this out in in our episode in a wonderful way

01:49:11

And look y 'all if y 'all haven't heard of the episode that dude put on a clinic when it came to debunking

01:49:17

The the cultural stuff and when it came to the exegesis of the text As usual, so but but this is this is a good reminder though, too.

01:49:26

It's just like, you know This what a way to show an unbelieving world

01:49:31

That we are and we understand and boldly and confidently understand

01:49:36

God's created order and we're gonna submit to that How do we do that? What's one of the ways that we do that for women?

01:49:43

We're head covering and And drew clearly shows that now I think

01:49:48

I was a strength of the show actually Is I mean look I clearly right?

01:49:53

We've been discussing it for close to two hours I you and I are not you know, you guys and I are not in in a hundred percent agreement.

01:50:00

That's not a cahoots as Long as you don't say racketeering because that's the you know word nowadays but what you end up seeing is

01:50:12

I Can recognize that drew Made a really really good argument.

01:50:19

I think it's the same argument that was made in the book that you referenced which is historically

01:50:25

We end like historically we see this was practiced even in America Yeah, until a feminist moon that that is something so we're gonna look at it culturally

01:50:37

We could look at this and say well this was a practice that was done even in in In America until what until there was a change what was that change a feminist movement, you know

01:50:53

And you know this feminist liberation, which I'm gonna say is I think is the same issue they were dealing with in Corinth We dealt with today

01:51:02

Much earlier D said women's liberation is part of the fall The reality is that I think that's true

01:51:10

I think part of the issue that we see is I Think there's a good case now.

01:51:16

No, I want you guys to hear what I'm doing I'm looking at what drew and Chris did on their podcast

01:51:23

Even though I may disagree with their conclusion. I can look at arguments they made that are really good and valid and persuasive and Bring those up.

01:51:38

Why do I say that I say that because what we have far too often in Social media.

01:51:44

Mm -hmm. I'm saying this to Christians That everybody must agree with me or you're of the devil and I'm gonna cast you aside you're a feminine a feminine

01:51:56

Yeah, that's the new term, right? This is a real problem We have to be able to recognize good arguments that other people have even if we don't

01:52:08

Agree with them or are not fully persuaded by them. Okay, so I'm saying all this preference to say

01:52:15

That I think that drew did an excellent job By making the point historically is and I heard this in in the other podcast

01:52:24

I think it was it was either on the Christian podcast me or conversations matter with John Harris.

01:52:29

I forget which one but someone had the author of that the book on women's head coverings on and And discussed this and when he went through the history it makes sense to me that the first thing the women wanted to do is

01:52:45

Change make a change of the very thing that shows that they are in submission to a man by God's created order

01:52:54

Well, let me let me read this quote and I quoted this in the episode But I think it I think it bears repeating here to And Andrew just to bring it back to to what you're saying to this is a dr.

01:53:04

John MacArthur He said quote if Christ had not submitted to the will of God redemption for mankind Would have been impossible and we would we would forever be doomed and lost if individual human beings do not submit to Christ as a

01:53:18

Savior and Lord they are still doomed and lost Because they reject God's gracious provision and if women do not submit to men listen to this

01:53:25

Then the family and society as a whole are disrupted and destroyed Whether on a divine or human scale subordination and authority are indispensable elements of God's order and plan

01:53:39

And and I mean I'm gonna say it again. I know I just said it but I mean what's one of the ways that you can do that?

01:53:47

through remote head covering Is gonna be a stance different than the world and so as we wrap up a

01:53:56

Melissa's saying So, what is the head covering specifically? What should I wear?

01:54:02

That's a very great question. If you go to garlands of grace .com. They have a wide range for you to choose from Yeah, I'm gonna

01:54:12

I'm gonna say the issue so my position is different than Christian drew, right? Drew's gonna say go get something a cloth to put on your head

01:54:20

I'm gonna say that you shouldn't be shaving your head to act in a rebellious manner But either way what we would all three of us agree

01:54:28

Maybe four with Brad is that we should be in submission to God first and foremost and his created order second there

01:54:36

Yes so Let me get to a couple things that I had start here from while ago

01:54:43

D had said this back when I was talking about my eyesight Saying asking now, you know, the reality of rate comforts

01:54:51

Asking people if they would sell their eyesight for a million dollars Yes As I've been having problems that you know, you don't appreciate something until you start having problems or losing it, okay

01:55:05

Yeah it's it's Besides the fact that I look like a pirate driving down the street with you know

01:55:11

As I drive with one eye covered because I can see okay, Tim are said this earlier

01:55:16

Yo, Andy rap, what's up? Hope you're well tonight. I don't know who

01:55:22

Andy rap is There's nobody here by the name of Andy. I'm Just saying

01:55:29

My name is not Andy. Just so you know Unless you want to upset me

01:55:34

Say I go by drew but I would much rather go by Andrew before I ever go by Andy I go by drew

01:55:43

I go but I'm I actually used to be Andrew at in my personal life and drew in my work life until my the best man my wedding invite, you know got hired me and Every it was kind of funny because a guy

01:55:58

I used to work with was there and he called me drew and Everyone was introduced by my friend as I was introduced as Andrew and it caused confusion just with one person

01:56:09

That kind of ended it after that I was just Andrew but we'll see I Obviously I go by drew but when we first started the podcast

01:56:17

I was a G Martin and people were going who is a G Martin? Well, and then

01:56:23

I pull out my license and I just show them that it's actually just my name with the last name taken off So I was like, you know, it's me

01:56:31

Yeah, so the reason I don't go by Andy is that's that's actually I mean and I don't say it's to make anyone feel bad

01:56:37

I just so you understand so my mother liked the name Andy and that's why my name was

01:56:42

Andrew So when she died, so did it so the reason I don't go by that name is really a memorial to my mother

01:56:50

And so I have had somebody who thought it was funny that I didn't like the name Andy so he kept doing it

01:56:56

I'm like, dude, I'm just telling you You don't want to know why I don't go by that name

01:57:02

I'm just saying you you want to stop and he didn't stop and I'm like, okay

01:57:08

I'm gonna tell you why and you're gonna feel bad and he kept going so I went, okay So, yeah, so But drew

01:57:16

Chris, I appreciate you guys coming on. I think it was a good discussion. I think that And we barely even scratched the soil.

01:57:23

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so you know, but this is the thing I mean look this is why I gave so many different things you can go

01:57:31

Go to Christian podcast community org and just type in head coverings and and listen to all now

01:57:38

I will say I started the show with this, but there seems to be a Resurgence of head coverings at least within the reformed circles

01:57:46

Yeah, and I'm noticing it just by listening to different podcasts like yours

01:57:53

Where we had people who are changing their minds? Who are thinking through these things and coming to different positions than what they had before It's the illumination of the

01:58:03

Holy Spirit through the reading of the Word of God. Yes If that's what you want to believe

01:58:09

Kathy says, yes good discussion. I Think I think what Kathy means is yes good discussion, even though drew is wrong about post mill and head coverings

01:58:23

I Don't know What did

01:58:32

Drew say Brad said what is it with you and Drew with Drew and post mill?

01:58:38

Oh, no I said I might side with drew on post mill. Okay. Okay, you might but you won't for long

01:58:47

I've not done any deep dive just kind of surface level stuff. You know, my thing is you won't agree with him for eternity

01:58:55

Gotcha Drew does get a does get quite the brunt of it.

01:59:04

So I feel you buddy. Okay, but here's the thing it's We give him the blunt because this is an area where I mean again,

01:59:13

I don't think it's a primary issue, right? We we jab at each other Have had discussions on it, and I think it's it's it's good

01:59:23

Let's see what Lacey says here. Lacey says the good news about your eschatology Andrew is that we

01:59:30

We should know soon who's really right You'll have a good night

01:59:41

Yeah Yeah, so When you know who her husband is,

01:59:48

I mean, yeah There you go, but here's what we'll do on the topic of head coverings all if you have not listened go listen to our episode

01:59:59

Yep. Look at the the exegetical work that was done and You know, you make the decision.

02:00:07

Well, I'll say this do theology did three episodes on it To where they were covering the issue.

02:00:13

They did an exegetical study of it. They they They actually went in not so much a historical

02:00:20

They went exegetical gave very good arguments for their view and what is their view by the way?

02:00:27

Well, they'd have head coverings. They believe they similar you. They're correct, too. Okay And so Hey, you you may be right on this.

02:00:37

I'm not you know, I can't be this is one. I can't be dogmatic Yeah, I give you a hard time, but right right they

02:00:43

I would I would encourage you guys to as well Go listen to do theology episode 758 and then there was a later one that they did kind of a mailbag type issue where it was a question

02:00:55

So they've dealt with it three times I'm Just community org and what

02:01:02

I'd say to do is type in in the search bar head coverings and That will give you all the episodes that cover it

02:01:09

I think mine is the only one in the Christian podcast community. That is the opposing view to everyone else's the one that we just played the two minutes and I didn't even come down on either way on that one, but Everyone seems to be moving toward that.

02:01:26

I think I think Stephen do might have covered it at one time I'm on Oh Your guys are theology

02:01:37

Now I just drew a blank your theology matters he's We're a matter of theology,

02:01:44

I think matters. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I you guys both have similar names it throws me off So Theology matters is is

02:01:55

Steve do So check all those out check them out do the study come to your own conclusions

02:02:03

From the Word of God not because these guys are anything right? That's right. Not because I'm convincing

02:02:10

Yeah, but come to it from the study of the Word of God That would be our encouragement to you and in our episode in our introduct one of the introductions

02:02:20

I gave was You know come to the can you you do the exegetical work yourself you go investigate it

02:02:29

You do the study and then come to your decision based upon first the

02:02:34

Word of God and what it says and then after that evidences and KT is saying and then you can cover your head with a my pillow

02:02:46

She I love that she always wants us to do the the my pillow so yeah, if you want to get a

02:02:53

My pillow they are sponsor here of the show that helps us out go to my pillow comm and use the promo code

02:03:02

SFE that lets them know that you heard about it from us And so you can go to my pillow comm

02:03:09

SFE stands for striving for eternity We do appreciate that when you guys do get that so That is is good.

02:03:19

So Let's see. Melissa said here you guys should play that episode on this show and let

02:03:27

Andrew critique it forever Yeah, I mean they did three hours

02:03:33

I mean, look guys we tried to do how far did we get on that that anti Calvinistic video?

02:03:40

What was that? Like I think a total of 10 minutes minutes in That Chris's head was an explode

02:03:46

Yeah, well, I was kind of I was kind of enjoying that I I just I was in I was in DC when

02:03:52

Chris was hearing it So I couldn't I couldn't watch it until after but and here's the thing about that.

02:03:58

Just going to Hold on get to the text. Hold on. I feel bad now because look

02:04:04

Steve Steven do is Who is correcting me the doctor matter podcast commented?

02:04:11

He said it down here, but to be fair. Oh, okay. I see what he's saying. Never mind. I'm stupid. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I it confused me but that's right.

02:04:22

Sorry He's That's a good a really good podcast to listen to as well

02:04:30

I like a like everything on the Christian podcast me, but I Might be biased but but I I do make sure when to listen to to yours to Stevens Those are two

02:04:41

I will make sure to listen to So, I appreciate you guys coming in I appreciate the discussion

02:04:47

I hope folks that this was helpful for you I hope that you learned some things that you gleaned something from it but the most important thing is

02:04:55

I think that all of us would agree is That if you do not know Jesus Christ if you have not been converted to Christ Today is the day of salvation today is they need to recognize that you have broken

02:05:07

God's law Every one of us have we are sinners in God's sight we're criminals in his sight because he's infinitely holy that has a

02:05:16

Eternal consequence and it will take us forever in the lake of fire to pay it In other words, it never gets paid off because who

02:05:23

God is and so because of his infinite holiness You need to turn from trusting yourself as a good person or trusting your good works

02:05:31

Turn and trust what Jesus Christ and he alone God who became man died on the cross trust that as the only payment of sin that you can have eternal life

02:05:41

That's the most important message So whether you have a head covering of a linen cloth or a head covering of hair

02:05:48

The most important thing is that you submit to Jesus Christ and what he did that you might be saved

02:05:55

That's the most important thing whether you wear a head covering or not More important is will you repent and trust