Dr. Licona

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Upcoming Schedule in Georgia and Next Week's Topics

And welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. Just oh, you know, I forgot to open that up. Oh, you know, I did all that work to get over here. And I forgot to open up. Let me open it up very very quickly here.

I Remembered to get the information for where I will be next week. Now this is for some of you. You may just want to be complaining That we're not doing dividing lines. We're gonna what what are we looking at out there gentlemen?

Okay, because the only day I'm gonna be here Next week is Monday Monday the what the 19th or something like that or yeah 19th. Yeah. Thanks for verifying what the the calendar says there. What's the man you try to open up a Microsoft thing and there's?

47 ,000 update things. Oh and then it shuts down. That's cool. That's that's sweet. Let's try keynote maybe keynote would work better. We're good on Monday probably need to do it like at about Two o 'clock, I would say two o 'clock our time.

Because I've got I've got a pack and everything else. So this is live radio folks. Actually, we're not in radio at all. So it's not live radio. It's live webcasting. I guess is what it's called live webcasting anyhow, we will put something up about that and let you know on about Monday because We have some people become very unhappy and upset if we did not have any Dividing lines at all for a week.

I mean, I think there would be great weeping and gnashing of teeth and unhappiness and darts thrown at pictures and things like that. That's not a good thing. Where will I be? Well, September 21st 22nd and 23rd.

I Have this is in the most interesting named place. I was just looking at it. I'm going to be at 2228 Highway 88 Hefzibah, Georgia. H E P H Z I B A H. Hefzibah, Georgia. Phone number is 706 -592 -2904.

Pastor Jody Boulinot is My host and this will be the second time. I will have been to a Church of God. Remember Jim Capo, I probably the church I think I have spoken at more often than any other church other than PRBC is the Church of God in on Long Island with Jim Capo and so now Pastor Jody Boulinot.

I met him and a group from his church at a church in, Georgia. Was it February of 2010? That sounds about right it was it was near it was either right before or right after the trip to To London, so I think that was about about right.

Anyway he had asked me then if it was possible that we could schedule something to come out to his church and. So that's where I'm going. And on Wednesday, we're talking about dependability in the New Testament on Thursday the New Testament versus the Quran and on Friday the importance of context in scripture gonna be looking at a number of.

Well, we're gonna look at the big three and we'll look at some others probably John 1030. Just just doing the the standard context is King Discussion not one that I've done before so I'll have to put new graphics together for that.

But anyways, that'll be next week for those of you in the Georgia area I do not have the slightest idea where Hefzibah, Georgia is other than I'm flying into Augusta. Is that where the is that where the US Opens played?

Augusta, Georgia? Oh, you're a real big help rookie. Gee Asking the rookies around the board today and he says look at me. Well, is that sport? I'm an engineer man. Is that a sport? Do you sweat while doing that?

Yeah. Poor guy comes in after work and what do I do start picking on him immediately, but that's just. That's what happens when I should call you in in light of one of my favorite TV dramas. I should call you Probie.

Yeah, that's that's that's a two-hour your Probie. But anyhow, that's where I will be and there's fun number. You can contact the folks at and get more details and stuff like that. And so that's where I'll be next week and Invite you out if you're in that particular your particular area now I have in my Never once stained by nicotine fingers.

Can sure give that oh That's the most disgusting anyway. You're not familiar that one either. Oh good grief. How can you not know that one? Have you never listened to Rush Limbaugh? Occasionally, he always says I am holding in my formerly nicotine nicotine stained fingers and I said in my never nicotine nicotine stained fingers because I just I've always I Remember getting in trouble with my mom once this is it shows how old I am.

We were standing in line at a like a Walgreens type place if Walgreens existed back then and There is a guy staying behind us in line smoking and I almost got my mom into a fistfight because I turned around gave him just the dirtiest look and I was probably like, you know 10 so 9 and 10 year olds can give really dirty looks, you know, and I've just always found cigarette smoke to be just the most Reprehensible and disgusting thing, but then of course I was department fellow anatomy and physiology and I got to do Not an autopsy, but we were who had a cadaver of a guy who died having smoked his entire life.

Everywhere you cut in his lungs is black as pitch. Oh my goodness and That's yeah, I just really really wish I had taken pictures back then it would have had been Polaroids. But man to have some digital pictures like that to whip him out.

No wouldn't great. Okay, let's see. Augusta is 15 .7 miles or 25 minutes from the church. Which church whatever church I'm gonna be at I guess yes, maybe no, I suppose I should I should Scroll back here and see if there's anything.

No, just just Ralph giving me the information that Augusta is 15 .7 miles or 25 minutes from The church, I'm not sure. It's nineteen hundred and sixty miles drive from Phoenix. Well, thank you Much. So I should be getting at least four thousand more frequent flyer miles on this one.

I got about the same last last week. So I'm moving. I'm gonna make my gold my gold preferred yet one one more time. For this year, that's for sure. All right, anyway back to where I was in my never ever once nicotine stained fingers a 718 page book From IVP academic it is a this this makes a thud see that's a that's that's a thud.

That's the thud test. How thick a book is then again? I've got a bunch of books in here that thud that are absolutely not worth anything I've got Dan corners the believers conditional security. Let me see how thick this one is.

Oh, this one's bigger. This is a bigger book. This one is seven. Well, there's eight hundred and one pages but if I drop this it would make no noise at all because There's nothing in it. Anyhow 718 page book this book is really making the rounds On the blogosphere right now.

Really really is and I was just reading a further response from its author Michael R. Lycona is called the resurrection of Jesus a new historiographical approach from IVP. And as you know it is making a big splash.

Primarily because a few weeks ago Dr. Norman Geisler Began posting some open letters to Michael Lycona regarding Matthew chapter 27 and the story of the graves being open and Bodies of Saints coming out and entering into Jerusalem that little just little short pericope there in Matthew's recording of the events surrounding the crucifixion and Dr. Geisler does not like what?

Dr. Lycona has to say at this particular point in time on this particular subject and I Understand that I would tend to be on dr. Geisler's side in light of the article that I put up in regards to The whole subject of Matthew 27, which we'll be looking at here in a moment.

Let me first just mention the irony that I cannot help but make reference to When it comes to dr. Geisler's laser beam focus Upon interaction with Mike Lycona, and in fact somewhat of an expression of some impatience With dr. Lycona who keeps mentioning that he's very very busy.

I guess he's going over to Europe and And I'm sure he is very busy. I I understand that very much. I'm headed to Australia in a few weeks myself two debates down there and I'm supposed to have this book done by the end of the year.

I don't know how I'm gonna do it because The more I work on the book the the more disorganized it gets and the more quotes there are that aren't quite connected to where they need to be and I've got information overload going on and and yet I'm really excited about it I really want I can see it's gonna be a very useful book to folks but the big challenge is making it understandable to people who do not have a Background in Islam and that's pretty much everybody Outside the Muslims and that's including a large portion of the Muslims too.

But yeah as it may Um, no pericope is not the word of the day Thaddeus, but that's not that's not my Thaddeus. That's I've got a I've got I've got a I've got a son-in-law named Thaddeus now, but I don't think it's the same Thaddeus.

That's different one. Pericope would be a good word of the day. But anyway, I keep looking and channeling getting getting Distracted it does seem very odd to me That dr. Geisler is so concerned about the speed with which dr. Lai Kona has responded to his open letters.

When dr. Geisler has a number of open letters shall we say Published challenges to himself that he has just decided to completely ignore for well since July of last year and they are Not on the subject of the resurrection someone might say, oh, we'll see this is just it's just a much more important subject well, I guess if integrity of ministry is a less important subject than the historical viewpoint of two verses in Matthew, I Certainly would not want to argue that anything's more important than the resurrection of Christ.

But it does seem that the real focus here is for dr. Geisler is not so much the interpretation of the text as It is dr. Lai Kona's membership in the Evangelical Theological Society of which dr. Geisler is no longer a member.

I think didn't he resign? Because the ETS could not get rid of open theists. I Recollect that has he undone his resignation? I don't know. But it really seems the primary issue is Is Dr. Lai Kona claiming To believe in inerrancy when dr. Geisler is basically saying his position precludes that.

Now I've criticized dr. Lai Kona just last week in regards to his appearance on the unbelievable radio broadcast. And it certainly identified him as the reluctant inerrant is that's that's quite quite the case.

But I find it just incredibly ironic That dr. Geisler would be so focused upon this particular issue when in Just a few weeks. He's going to be appearing with dr. Ergen Kanner at Skip Heitzik's Calvary Chapel in Albuquerque and then a few weeks later.

He's going to be at the mama Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa For the big Veritas National Apologetics thing and there he's gonna be with with Ergen Kanner and so he has. He has put his entire credibility on the line in defense of Ergen Kanner and yet everything that he has posted In defense of Kanner has been shredded.

Has just been just been made to look for the foolish shallow ridiculous argumentation that it is and And it just seems like there's a real disconnect there, doesn't it by the way? Keep your eyes open on the blog.

I Don't think it'll be till next week at the earliest but You know, we've been talking about a certain kind of t-shirt to design, you know, it says what is Hadith 2425 on it? Let me just let me just give you one Name to let you know how excited you should be about what should be coming next week.

Angels. Yes Angel Contreras. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. So if you know what I'm talking about one of the best Satire cartoonists in the business and I got a hold of of angel a couple days ago and said, you know, you know and he said blah.

That's a direct quote. Blah. I think I think there may have been a few more extra ha ha's in there. But it started with blah. So so yes, we are going to be putting together an excellent t-shirt and I will personally pay to send a T-shirt this is what we do.

We said these t-shirts to dr. Geisler and to Eric and Kanner. What do you think? Oh Yeah, oh yeah, this is gonna be too much fun. Nice subtle way of reminding folks that hey, you know what? We're not going away.

You think we're just gonna become silent. We're not we're ain't going anyplace. We our memories do not fade and as long as you run around. Talking about Veritas you need to Veritas guys. You know what I mean?

Just Just got to do it you can't you can't keep dodging this stuff. It's there and if you keep inviting that man. You keep putting them out there as an expert on Islam when when he can't figure out how long Ramadan is.

There you go, there you go, that was the other thing I was gonna do that was the other thing I was gonna do. Ah, I'm sorry. Maybe I can get to it in a blog, but I was going to link. I was gonna post the link supposed to do it.

Just too many things going on. I need to post the link to James Boyce's abstract of systematic theology. Give you the specific chapters. So those of you who want to get a head start on reading the background reading for that program we want to do which probably Probably will be the last week in September.

Maybe the first week in October. I need to do it before we go to. Before I head to Australia and I head there at the 12th, I believe. So to give you the background reading on the Christology. Super duper DL.

I don't know how long it's gonna ask Alaska. It'll it'll be a long a long one, but a class on Christology will be going over the Athanasian Creed the Chalcedonian definition and The various errors. What is?

Nestorianism, what is eutychianism? What is a pollinarianism. Etc, etc, and I wanted to get those things put up there and I forgot I apologize. But we will get that up there. I knew I'd opened a browser up for some reason.

It's just one of those situations where you're sitting there staring at a blank browser is like, okay I had a reason why I was gonna do yep. Yep, man. Or some shiny thing went floating by and I ran off after it.

That's his unfortunate works. Okay. How did I get over there? Oh, yes, okay. So that's the first ironic thing here. Is that you know Dr. Geisler is not backing down, but it's funny. He's he really picks and chooses what he's gonna what he's gonna do, you know, if he really thinks of what he's posted is defensible then I wonder why he's been silent for Coming up on us to July to August 14 months 14 months of silence.

I don't. I think Mike Laicona respond to him a whole lot faster than 14 months. I just wonder if there's real consistency. At that point for for dr. Geisler now as to the actual issue itself, I as I said, I think it's a very very important issue and I have expressed my understanding of the text in Matthew chapter 27.

What I wanted to do is first of all find my reading glasses because unfortunately Mike Laicona's book is in very small print and that was my hand hitting the Purple microphone in front of me. And so now I have to put on my my reading glasses because it's next to impossible to read this thing without it.

He's talking about the harrowing of hell and on page 548 he says this brings us that strange little text. Matthew 27 52 through 53 were upon Jesus death. The dead saints are raised and walk into the city of Jerusalem during Jesus crucifixion upon his death mark and Luke report two phenomena that occurred.

There is darkness and the temple veil is torn in two. John is silent on the matter. Matthew likewise reports the darkness and tearing the temple veil. But adds four more phenomena the earthquakes the rock split the tombs are open and the dead saints rise up and walk in Jerusalem After Jesus resurrection.

Matthew 27 51 through 54. Then we have and and I'm gonna try to be brief about this but There is the This is this is one of the things that bothers me and concerns me about The educational system That we have established for theological education even amongst conservative evangelicals.

There is everything right in knowing what is being said out there in the world and interacting with Scholarship that is not our own. We need to know what's being said. I'm not I'm not a closed-minded fundamentalist that that thinks that Even having these books in your library is going to bring some spiritual curse upon you or any of the rest that stuff.

I'm glad that I did my first master's degree at Fuller. I'm glad that I had to read All sorts of people with whom I disagreed. I think that if you do not read other perspectives as part of your education It's not much of an education.

Don't get me don't Misunderstand anything that I'm saying along those lines. Okay. Well people will but I'm putting it out there for the honest folks. However There has been a loss of balance. It seems to me that for many people today to write a Meaningful book a scholarly book say on the resurrection of Jesus justification deity of Christ scriptural authority.

You name it. Maybe maybe prophetic fulfillment in New Testament scriptures of Old Testament texts. There's there's lots of important areas that we can be writing in but it seems that for the majority of Christian scholars today especially when writing biblical commentary.

The idea now is you have to interact with all the big names even if those big names were so far Removed from biblical Christianity than on any meaningful theological level. They were not even Christians.

That's what bothers me. I it's such a waste of times and paper for that matter. Well when it's a paper book anymore skipping over page after page of interaction. When what I'm looking for is not a recitation of what the liberals think on the text, but I and It seems like when they're actually getting around to making theological application if you're making theological application.

Shouldn't you be filtering your sources to where you're only dealing with those people who would have a meaningful theological thing to say now. For example Why is it that there are entire feet of my bookshelves taken up with with with paper in commentaries interacting with Rudolph Bultmann.

Now I Know who Bultmann was and I know what Bultmann's perspective. I went to Fuller for crying out loud, but when it comes to commentary on the text of Scripture. Hey, if you want to know Bultmann says go buy a liberal commentary.

Why do we need to be interacting with that in a conservative commentary? Where where you would think there'd be some filtering of sources so that at least what you're dealing with has there's some Consistency in the worldview.

There's some consistency and at least well Let's look at what people think who actually believe that the Bible is the Bible. What a concept that would be and yet so many people they go in they buy a commentary in a Christian book store.

They have no idea what they're reading. I have no idea why this is relevant and they're having to read all sorts of stuff from people who really do not for a moment believe that the Bible is is actually inspired in any meaningful sense and.

So when I you know. Clearly Raymond Brown, for example is a big writer in this area. Considered to be this great great New Testament scholar. Okay, I Quotes him all the time, but it just strikes me as somewhat odd that in seeking to There just seems to be the idea amongst many people today that unless you interact with these sources.

And this isn't a doctoral dissertation. Maybe it is his dissertation to still down and print it out. I don't know but if if you're if you're trying to edify the Saints I'm not sure how much Quoting Raymond Grant Brown is going to be edifying to Bible-believing Saints unless that's not your audience.

Maybe he's got just completely different audience. I don't know. But it just seems that there's the attitude is if you don't interact with these things, then you're just a nobody. You're you're just you don't even count you're not you're not even in the game and.

For a lot of people that's the way it is. That's that's just the way it is. So He mentions. Raymond E Brown notes that similar phenomena were reported the death of Romulus and Julius Caesar. Confining himself only to those who wrote within 100 years on either side of Jesus death.

His examples include Plutarch Ovid Cicero Virgil Josephus and Pliny. In a clearly poetic account Virgil reports the following 16 phenomena occurred after Caesar's death. This is interesting. Check this out.

Prolonged darkness. Dogs and birds acted unusually. Well, that happens to my house every morning. Etna erupted. Fighting in the heavens was heard. How could you tell? The Alps shook near Germany that never happened before a Powerful voice was heard in the groves.

Fight. Oh fight, but I didn't say that. Sorry. Pale phantoms were seen at dusk. Well pale phantoms are seen at the local bar every day. Cattle spoke poor tense. Well, we have cattle on TV. Telling us to eat chicken all the time.

So that must mean something. Streams stood still well in Arizona that happens. That's the only stream we have as well as standing still. The earth opened up. Ivory idols wept and Bronze idols were sweating in the shrines.

Well again Phoenix happens. Happens all the time. Usually they call that brazing brazing. Oh, okay. Thank you. Dark intestines appeared outside of animals in their stalls. Blood trickled in Springs. Wolves howled.

I've never heard that one happened before. Lightning appeared in a cloudless sky and a bright comet was seen. So there's the 16. Then this one I really liked going more than 100 years after Jesus. We may add that Dio Cassius Reported six phenomena connected to the death of Claudius.

Now this one caught my attention. Because if we could if this is true, we might be able to clean up, Washington. Check this out. These include a comet raining blood lightning striking the Praetorian standards.

Jupiter's temple opening by itself. Bees swarming in the camp. And an incumbent of every political office dying. There you go there there. There I'm just reading at page 549 of there. I did not make it up.

Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria. Okay so Philo claimed that eclipses were omens. The impending death of a king. However phenomena were not limited to the death of a king. Dio Cassius report eight phenomena.

The curb and Julius Caesar enslaved Egypt. It rained where it never rained previously. That'd be my backyard it Rained water blood and weapons from the dead. How they know their weapons from the dead is the question.

And if they are from the Dead would they be good weapons because obvious didn't help them out much at all. The sound of musical instruments was heard that happens every night about 3 a .m. When the the guys drive by with their big old speakers on a huge snake appeared and let out a loud hiss.

Well, there you go. There were comets. Apparitions were seen. Images frowned. And the image of the bull deity Aris lamented and wept. So this have you noticed that having statues and stuff like that weeping and doing stuff.

It's not just Mary that gets in on this act. This has been going on for a long time. And I just sort of wonder if people take that as evidence of something. I wonder if they saw it. Caesar in the toast.

Caesar in the toast. A little bit of an anachronism there because we didn't have toast back then but it's it's okay all right, so then he goes on with Lucian and stuff like that and he goes on with Josephus and He says that Jesus the son of Ananus went around Jerusalem for four years predicting the impending destruction of Jerusalem its temple.

Josephus reports that even the strangest these things actually happened. Why go through all of this. Well, he's establishing. What has been his his what has been dr. Lycona's? Defense for his position his defense for his position has been when we look at the genre of first century literature into which we can fit Matthew are there examples of apocalyptic utilization of Shall we say non-historical events.

So to establish that on page 550 he says that the biblical writers were familiar with and employed this type of language seems clear now. I I want to stop here for a moment and question the connection that's being made here and that is I will agree With much of what he says following this in regards to the use of apocalyptic language in judgment texts.

But I'm not sure that the connection is overly strong between that and what we just heard about in Regards to events at the death of Julius Caesar or something like that. I don't see those as. Just simply stating that there's a connection doesn't make there to be a connection.

He says the Sun goes down at noon in Jeremiah 15 9 no actually says. That's not what it said. Actually. I looked it up. I put it in channel. It talked about the Sun going down while it was yet light. That might be at noon.

I suppose I'm not sure why I put it that way and Amos 8 8 through 9 the earth will quake and the Sun will go down at noon in Zephaniah 1 15 through 18 and Joel 2 to the day of the Lord is described among other things as a day of darkness and gloom.

Later in the passage Joel then has the text that Peter applies to events at the time of Pentecost. It will come about after that this. I'll pour out my spirit on all mankind. Your sons and daughters will prophesy your old men will Dream dreams and your young men will see visions.

Even in the male and female servants. I'll pour out my spirit in those days I'll display wonders in the sky and on earth blood fire and columns of smoke. The Sun will be turned in darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

They'll come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered from Mount Zion and in Jerusalem. There will be those who escape as Lord has said even among the survivors whom the Lord calls now very very important Text.

I mean when you have Whoever calls on the name the Lord will be delivered and we know how often that's used in the New Testament. Okay important stuff but one of the problems I have here is when it says The Sun will be turned in darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day the Lord comes.

I I do realize that there is a genre of fundamentalism. That is so literalistic that it actually thinks that the moon will be turned into a big drop of gooey Plasma out there in space. Obviously, that's not what's being discussed.

I have seen situations where the Sun was darkened and I have seen situations where the moon looked like it was blood. Both in its rising after For example a period of storm or especially during periods of fire when there's smoke in the in the in the heavens.

You can have a very different look to things I've seen pictures. For example, we had that huge how big that that fire end up being. Remember this that's past summer. I forgot the name already forgotten the name of the fire.

It was in June. It looked like it was going to be larger than Rodeo Chetis guy. So I think it did over five hundred thousand Aiken acres over there is huge and I saw the smoke in New Mexico. I mean it was coming all the way when I was cuz I remember I was over in Santa Fe.

I was doing some riding over there teaching over in Santa Fe and and You can see It changes the way everything looks and I remember once there was a fire as rides I was leaving New Mexico heading back here.

There was a fire that just it made it look like it was nighttime it was just that thick and when you would have The cities destroyed and things like that. I that's that's what these are referring to their their judge its judgment language.

But I don't see that anywhere in Matthew 27 at that point. That's that's the question. We'll look at it here. Anyways in Acts 2 15 to 21 Peter quotes in this text indicates these things are being filled in their presence.

Brown and Gundry observe Allusions in the text to other Jewish texts the earth is shaken in divine judgment and in Judges 5 4 in Psalms 77 8 other Lots and lots of other text the rocks are rent. In last the rocks are rent in the Sun darkened.

The tombs are opened in Ezekiel 37 12 to 13 at this one I I questioned the utilization of this text because listen to what Ezekiel 37 says behold I'll open your graves and cause you to come out of your graves my people.

I will bring you in the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord that I when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves my people. That's in the Ezekiel 37 38 39 regeneration born-again Valley of Dry Bones stuff and I I don't think that that's what Matthew is making a connection to though.

You know, I suppose someone might make that argument. So there's the material he puts forward then he says page 51. I'm getting to the context here. On the other hand in favor of the historicity of the phenomena report by Matthew the darkness report and all three synoptics is also apparently reported by the secular historian phallus.

Moreover destructive earthquakes were common in the region and can explain for the six phenomena terror the tearing of the temple veil earthquake rock splitting tombs opened a. Number of sources may report that there were real persons who were raised by Jesus.

Ignatius may refer to them when he refers to the prophets Raised by Jesus, but it is uncertain how this report was intended to be interpreted. Quadratus Report that those whom Jesus had raised continued to live for considerable period and some even still lived.

However, he is more likely referring to those whom Jesus raised from the dead during his earthly ministry. Acts of pilot 17 -1 reports Jesus raised Simeon and his two sons and that their tombs Could still be seen open and they were alive and dwelling in Arimathea and that people had gone and talked with them.

However, the authenticity of the authenticity of this source has long been questioned and is likewise possible. This was a reference to one of Jesus activities during his earthly ministry. Finally we get to the text that has been quoted a number of times and one of the reasons I'm doing this because al moeller has now weighed in on this subject along with Norman Geisler, so that's Okay given the presence of phenomenological language this page 552 in a symbolic manner in both Jewish and Roman literature related to a major event such as the death of an emperor or the end of a reigning king or even a kingdom.

The presence of Ambiguity in the relevant text of Ignatius and that so very little can be known about phallus's comment on the darkness including whether he was even referring to the darkness at the time of Jesus's crucifixion or If so, if he was merely speculating pertaining to a natural cause of darkness claimed by the early Christians.

Here's the quote. It seems to me that an understanding of the language in Matthew 27 52 to 53 as quote special effects in quote. With eschatological Jewish texts and thought in mind is most plausible.

There is further support for this interpretation and This. I had not seen this and maybe I just missed it. It's not like I've been living my life on this particular subject, but. Then he's then here's the further support.

If the tombs opened and the Saints being raised upon Jesus death was not strange enough. Matthew adds. They did not come out of their tombs until after Jesus's resurrection. What were they doing between Friday afternoon early Sunday morning?

Were they standing in the now open doorways their tombs and waiting? Then there's a footnote. And you know where that comes from. John Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg. John Dominic Crossan 1995. Morgan Crossan 2006.

Not folks that I would use as a source unless that's where he's gotten this argument from and then I guess you have to give The source but boy think about for a moment. What that means. Moreover Crossan and Borg themselves note a major difference from the harrowing of hell in Matthew 27 52 through 3.

The Saints are liberated by God's earthquake not Jesus's presence and they do not appear with him in the resurrection. But only without him after his resurrection. They suggest that Matthew is making a fine attempt to fit the harrowing of hell in the resurrection narrative.

He had borrowed from Mark, etc, and etc now. Here's here's my problem it sounded to me last week. When Mike Lycona first responded Norman Geisser that he was backpedaling that he was saying Well, you know upon further examination, I think there's more evidence of the historical reading of this etc, etc but then today Just three hours ago. I read a response That included al moeller evidently al moeller has made comment.

I don't know where I didn't see it. I didn't hear it in the briefing. So it must be on a website someplace and it seemed to me that Lycona is Defending the position he took in his book now rather than saying I think there's better evidence for the historical perspective.

So I'm I really don't know how to put together what he has said. I really don't. But I simply want to state that I think Matthew does Use language from Destruction texts in Matthew 24. There's no question about that.

He he borrowed he quotes directly from Hosea and other texts in regards to The destruction of Jerusalem and he's have ever noticed that up through verse 35 of Matthew chapter 24. There's a lot of details When you see this happening get out.

Get out of what get out of Jerusalem not get out of Paris or London or anything else that it's it's specifically about a specific location a specific event that the people this generation are gonna see and Here's all the details because remember the disciples asked two questions and They may have thought that the answer to their two questions only had one part, but that's not the case they said what will be the sign of the destruction of Jerusalem because he had said not one stone will be left standing on another and When are you gonna return and so when.