Ron Reffett Interview 

Cancer, Law and Gospel, and the Guest Introduction

Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. My name is Mike Ebendroff. Just a couple updates before we get to our special guest today. I've condensed Cancer Is Not Your Shepherd book into a little pamphlet, about 49 pages long.

You could just give to people, smaller size, put it in an infusion center, where people getting chemo, hand it to a friend, I think it might be easier to read. And they might be more tempted to read it.

And also the new book on law gospel, A Primer. You want to say primer, but it's really a primer. That should be out in the next couple of weeks as well. Today, since it's Wednesday in NOCO time, I have a special guest.

And you'll learn more about this guest here real soon. Ron Reffert, thank you for being on No Compromise Radio Ministry. It's two F's and two T's, right? Reffert?

Yes, Reffert. I have no idea what the nationality is of that, but yes, that's it.

All right. Well, Ron, tell our listeners how we know each other.

How Ron and Mike Know Each Other

Well, so we actually, we haven't met physically in person. But over time, I've listened to you, I mean, for years. And you've always been such an encouragement to me. And here about, well, let's see. It was about three years when the initial diagnosis for my wife's cancer came about.

And just listening to your radio show and just listening to you just bring the good news of the gospel and just the hope that we have in that just was so encouraging. And things kind of took a turn for the worse here about six months ago.

And I reached out to you and just let you know that we were in the chemo room where we were at, at the James Hospital in the Ohio State University area. And I was reading your book, Cancer's Not Your Shepherd.

And also you had just done a program based on that on your show. And I just really felt like I really wanted to reach out to you and just tell you how much you've encouraged me through this whole experience.

And, yeah, just really appreciate you so much and really appreciate your friendship, even though it's been a long distance, but I'm very thankful for you, brother.

Well, Ron, I'll send you the check in the mail after that introduction. Well, it's interesting. Through social media, I've met people. Through the radio show, I've met people. And it's kind of like that's how you almost meet friends these days, right?

Yeah, it is. Absolutely.

Unless, you know, at the shooting gallery or something like that.

Right, right.

Ron's Background, Salvation, and Church Life

So, Ron, let's talk big picture. How old are you? When did you get saved? What was your theological, religious background, if any?

Yeah, so I'm 54 and some would say going on 12. But, you know, that's a show for another time. But, go ahead.

No, I was going to say, and what do you do for a living?

So I work for a bank. It's First Commonwealth Bank here in Sunbury, Ohio. I've been here for about three years. I never, ever thought I would be in the banking world, but here I am. The Lord's Providence, that's where I've landed.

So pretty thankful for that. I've met some really great people here. Had some opportunities to share with them, too, kind of just what I've been through. And it's been a really encouraging place to be here.

So really thankful for that, too.

And did you grow up in a Christian church or no?

No.

So, well, I grew up in the Methodist church. So back in the day, and my salvation experience was, and you and I have talked about this, and I always loved your response to it. So the pastor that was at our church at the time, I was young.

I was like a kid. And his name was Calvin Wise. And I always loved your response to that. At least it wasn't Arminius the Dumb.

Hey, that's pretty good. Come on.

So I had had a, kept thinking about, it's funny because this was back in the day when the Methodist church actually preached the gospel, and we actually learned about heaven and hell and Jesus and who he was.

And I just remember hearing about hell there. And I just remember thinking as a kid, I was like, man, I really don't want to go to that place because it just sounds like a horrible, horrible experience.

So I had a chat with Calvin Wise. And he told me he thought it was about time that I would come to know Jesus. And so we sat down, and he explained to me what salvation was and how I would come to obtain that.

And, of course, growing up, you learn some things. But I believe God uses even crooked sticks to get us to the right path. So I think that was in God's providence, he's brought me to where I am now. So I'm very thankful for that.

Amen.

Back in the old days, even if you would think about Whitefield, for instance.

Oh, yeah.

They'd call him a Calvinistic Methodist. So I don't know how those words go together. But I'm not sure the Great Awakening was that great either. But that's another show.

Right, right.

Law and Gospel in an Orthodox Presbyterian Church

What kind of church do you go to now, Ron?

So funny thing. So I ended up in an Orthodox Presbyterian church. And again, never thought I would end up in that. But from a confessional point of view, it's been very, very good. We hear law and gospel every week, and it's just amazing.

I love the teaching there. There's a few people that I attend with there. We don't agree on everything. But the main thing we agree on is the gospel. And that is just so refreshing, especially nowadays, because there's just not a lot of churches that are sticking to that.

And it's all about entertainment. It's all about getting, as they say, butts in the seat. And that's just not what the church is for. And I'm just very thankful. Again, never thought I'd end up there.

But I'm very thankful that the Lord and His grace has put me where I am now.

Amen.

Well, that's wonderful to hear. And, of course, for both of us, once we understand Christ-centered preaching, law gospel preaching, Christ for pardon, Christ for power, it's hard to go back to anything else, right?

You're ruined.

It's a glorious ruin.

It is a glorious ruin, yes. Absolutely. That's a perfect way to put it. Yeah, that's absolutely correct.

Yeah.

I think I stole that from the band Switchfoot.

I was just going to say, I thought, well, you know, anything good. It's probably been plagiarized a million times. But, you know, it's still good.

I know. I could have said maybe C .S. Lewis said it. But I've been known to critique C .S. Lewis, even though most of that is just kind of a no-co deal. He writes some good things.

Right, right.

There is some good things, yeah. It's kind of the old cliché. You chew up the meat and spit out the bones kind of thing, I guess, you know?

That's right. Well, especially in Ohio where you have probably good grass-fed beef.

That's right. Yes, we do, actually. There is some very good grass-fed beef here, too. I know much about that, too.

Well, I am headed to the doctor appointment here after this, and then I'm going to swing by the butcher. We have a really wonderful butcher, and my daughter is in town, and I'm going to have a ribeye steak cooked the Chef Ramsay way with a bunch of butter and garlic and thyme.

Oh, man. And it's just going to be so yummy. That's later tonight.

That sounds good. That sounds good. My artery is just hardened just listening to you talk about that.

Yeah, that's right.

The Theology of Suffering and God's Providence

So, Ron, really probably the main reason I want to have you on the show today is to talk about kind of a theology of suffering. I was just reading 2 Corinthians 4, so we do not lose heart, though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

Could you walk our listeners through, and you probably didn't, you know, excel the whole time, but how has the Lord kept your faith intact, not losing just one wife to cancer, but if memory serves, you lost your first wife to cancer as well.

Is that right?

Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, my first wife, Chris, passed in 2004 from breast cancer. We were 35 at the time. So, yeah, I have lost two wives in my 54 short years.

And so, I mean, if people just let that settle in a little bit and kind of ponder that for a moment, 35 years old, you lose your wife. What kind of went through your mind? And you know what I'd like to ask, Ron?

Was there a difference between your grief and suffering with wife number one and wife number two, in terms of your maturation, understanding? Walk us through that.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there was quite a bit. So, initially, when I lost Chris, my first wife, there was a lot of anger. There was a lot of misquestions, misunderstandings, things that I thought, you know, here we are, you know, serving the Lord.

We were serving the Lord together. We had a good marriage. It wasn't a perfect marriage. None are. But we had a great relationship with one another. And, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking at the time, you know, again, goes back to kind of the works righteousness thing.

But it's, you know, doing all these right things, so to speak. And then God just decides, you know, I'm going to take her away from you. I mean, that was my mindset. That was what I was thinking. And it was in that time that I started to become more familiar with reformed theology and things that taught me about the sovereignty of God, the providence of God, the things that we come into our lives that are difficult and hard and even death.

And yet God uses those things for his good, for our good, for his glory. And maybe at that time I was, I was came to me a lot with that story of Joseph and how, you know, he was, he was ill treated. He was, you know, I mean so many things were going on in his life that he had no idea.

And I think it's four times in the book of Genesis. It says that God was with him. And that just really struck me that like, even through the difficult circumstances, the difficult life that he lived, you know, I mean, obviously we didn't know Joseph's heart.

There was some pride issues there. There were some other things going on, but the main thing was God was with him. And at the end of that entire experience, he said, you know, what you meant for evil, God meant for good, which means God uses the evil things of this world, the fallen things of this world, i .e. cancer, any of those things to come into our lives, one to draw us closer to him, but also to help us to understand that he's in control and we're not.

And that really dawned on me through that time. And then I became, I got a little more joy and it was weird because I thought, you know, why am I happy when I lost my life? I had no, you know, I had no idea what was really going on at the time, but in hindsight, I think, well, it was God's sovereignty.

It was his way of drawing me to himself. Not that I wasn't a Christian at the time, but that he took me and he used that experience to show me that he's good and that he's faithful, even in the midst of trying experiences, trials, fires that we go through in this life and that he's not a capricious God.

He's not something, some deity in the sky that's ready to, you know, zap us when we're doing bad things or evil things or sinful things, that he's a good and faithful God. And the experience from that point to when I, so I met Jeannie, we actually were in the same small group together.

So Chris and I knew Jeannie and her family before, you know, obviously before she died. But so the Lord kind of drew me to her. And so we, we ended up, you know, we kind of dated for a while and then decided, well, you know, I think things are kind of going in the right direction.

So we got married in 2007. So we were married for 17 years. And then she was diagnosed with cancer in 2021. She had a, the Whipple surgery done. I don't know if everybody knows what that is, but it's basically a procedure where they, they cut you open from side to, from one side to the other.

They take out the affected portion of what in this case was the pancreas. And then they basically rearrange all of your digestive tract. So it's a pretty extensive surgery. You have to sign a waiver that says, you know, there's a 5 chance.

You're not going to make it through this, but you know, we're going to, we're going to do the best we can to get you through this and get you out of here, you know, and, you know, back to the recovery time.

So, so that happened. And then about, oh gosh, 21. So three years later she, she was diagnosed. Well, the cancer had come back and it had moved into her liver at that.

Point.

And so the time that from that point to now I watched, I just watched her suffer really well. And I know that sounds strange, but it, but she suffered very well. She was such a faithful follower of Christ and she, she knew where she was going.

I mean, she, we talked about it pretty extensively and pretty candidly. She, she would talk to me about how she was excited because she was going to be in the presence of Christ and she was going to see him face to face.

You know, obviously there were people that had gone before us that she was looking forward to seeing as well, but. But her whole time that she was sick, I never heard her complain. I never heard her, you know, talk about how bad things felt.

There were some times, I mean, obviously she wasn't, you know, she, she, she did tell me when she wasn't feeling well, but, but I mean, she never complained. It was, it was amazing. And I watched that.

And I was like, you know, there's something to all of this. And I know without a shadow of a doubt, based on my experience with Chris, based on my experience now that God, he, he, he not only allows these things, he brings these things by his hand into our lives.

And it's, again, not to hurt us, not to harm us, but they're to, to draw us to himself, to sanctify us, to, you know, like the process of sanctification. I mean, I was reading about this with what they would do with silver, you know, it's crushed it's then there's chemicals introduced to the, to the silver.

And then it's crutched again until it's a perfect thing where it looks perfect. There's no dross on it. It's a shining trophy almost. And I think that's what we are to do the Lord in that sense that not by anything we've done, obviously it's all by his grace, but we are shining trophies of his grace and his goodness to us, even in the midst of trial, because it's, it's hard.

I'm not going to lie to you. It's, it's hard. And it's a very hard path, but knowing that God is good. That's been the big difference for me in this experience, as opposed to the one with Chris, I know that he's good.

I have absolute trust that he is good and he's guiding my life and he's guiding my steps. He he's not, he can't be distrusted. He's if that's a word, but he's a, he's good and he's faithful and he, he treats us as children.

And, you know, sometimes children need to be disciplined. I mean, sometimes children need to be put on the right path. Not that we were doing anything, you know, sinful or out of, out of his will. But I mean, I think sometimes there's things we don't even understand that God does.

And I think about this versus stood out to me so many times in this experience is Deuteronomy 29, 29, where it talks about the secret things of the Lord and how, you know, there's certain things that he doesn't reveal to us and we should be thankful for that.

But there are the things that he does reveal to us. They're ultimately for our good. And I think that's what this is. I think, you know, I mean, so like your book answers, not your shepherd, that, that, that phrase stood out to me so much during this experience, during this time, it was just such a, such a comfort to know, you know, that's not our shepherd.

Jesus is our shepherd. He's our good shepherd. He's our great shepherd. He brings us to places of rest. He brings us to places of refreshing, you know, even in the midst of suffering, even in the midst of trial, he is good.

And he brings us to those places that, that draw us to himself, but also that heal us and give us joy in the midst. I mean, we can laugh in the midst of death. I mean, in the face of death, I, and that's a thing that I just, I just posted on Facebook last night.

There was a instance where Jeannie, we had to go get, we went to the funeral home to make arrangements for her service, which was a totally like just awkward and surreal experience for me because I just had to sit there and listen to them ask, you know, what type of service do you want?

What type of casket do you want? What type of things, you know, do you want to vault? What kind of vault do you want? You know, all these things that you just kind of go, man, this is not a conversation I want to have with my wife sitting here and that we're still living together, you know?

But she laughed and she was joking and she was like, just, I mean, it was almost like she didn't even realize what was going on in her life, that she was so joyful knowing that she was going to be with the Lord and she didn't have to worry about, you know, this, this template, you were saying that verse in first Corinthians, that has been a verse that has been so dominant in my life and our life.

When we were together, our pastor at our church came and sat with us one day at our house. This was when she wasn't feeling great at all. And he just come to visit and hey, imagine that pastor's coming to visit you when you're not feeling well.

That's kind of a foreign concept, isn't it?

Did he have a mask on?

No, no, he didn't. I, you know, some have said that my face looks like a mask, but that's a, you know, that's a, that's just a different, different story altogether. But, uh, but no, he came and shared that verse with us.

And, and, and, you know, that's that verse is so true, Mike, it's, it's these light, these momentary afflictions and that, that word momentary is very key to that, that this life is not it. And we're going to look back in eternity at these things that we've gone through, you know, our cancer, our, our divorce, our separation, our loss of loved ones, whatever it is, a lost child, that's, that's wandering away from the Lord.

Any of that, we're going to look at that in eternity and go, wow, that was nothing. Like it was just a momentary affliction. I mean, that's, that's an amazing thought to me, you know?

Amen. Talking today with Ron Reffet, uh, who's lost, not just one wife, Chris, but another one, Jeannie. And we're talking to him about the faithfulness of God. Ron, tell me about your experience in this regard.

And I want to see if it matches up with mine. Uh, most every time that I've gone to the cancer hospital for my treatments, whether they're all day or just an hour, uh, my wife has gone with me. And she's insisted taking time off of work or rearranging her schedule to go with me.

Who would have ever thought some of our sweet times, uh, we're going to the cancer hospital together. It's almost like a date, right? Where you sit and talk and, you know, everybody says you're supposed to date your wife.

Uh, sometimes I don't remember going out to dinner with her or going to a movie, but I remember the cancer hospital times together. Yeah. Same with you.

Suffering, Marriage, and Shared Time in the Cancer Hospital

Yeah. Same with me. Yeah. We, we had some of our best conversations in those rooms. Um, and especially prior to the oncologist coming in to talk to us about what was the next steps of things. Um, I can remember, I can remember with Jeannie, but I can also remember with Chris.

Um, we, we had some very, very candid conversations during those times. And I felt like in my mind and in my heart, I got to know her so much better in the, in the heat of suffering. And that's such a weird thing.

Cause you would, you know, I think the world looks at marriage and relationships and they think, Oh, you know, everything must, has to be flowery and gushy. And, you know, all of those things and those things are great.

I love those things. I'm a very emotional person. I'm a very touchy feely person. If, when I meet you in person, I'm going to give you like the biggest bear hug. So I'm just going to warn you ahead of time for that.

But, uh,.

That'll cost you extra.

Well, that's what I've heard. I've heard, but I've heard the word on the street is you're pretty cheap. So.

That's right.

No, I agree. I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Here's another question. And maybe we're kindred spirits. So you think the way I do, I'm not exactly sure. I have thought to myself, I think rightly, but maybe wrongly, I have so much self-righteousness, sin, pride, hard heart, this, that, or the other, that I, I didn't learn it from just having prostate cancer and getting through that.

I didn't learn it from almost dying of COVID in the hospital for 16 days. Now I have leukemia. Uh, Lord, I appreciate you working on me, but I, I was hoping after the first trial, that would have been enough.

Did you ever think that way in terms of now my second wife had just died?

Yes. That's, it's funny. You'd bring that up because I mean, you and I, I have similar experiences too. And the fact that I, I was, I was almost, I almost died from COVID is why COVID and pneumonia. Um, and I was in the hospital for almost three weeks with it, um, in the critical care unit.

So, um, so that on top of everything else, um, yeah, I thought that many times I thought, you know, what did I not learn the first time? Like, did I not learn something, you know, vital to my, my sanctification, vital to my relationship with the Lord vital to my life that I, that I screw something up that I do.

You know what I mean? Those all those questions go through your head during that time. And, um, I have come to come to the knowledge and understanding again, not perfect. I mean, and it doesn't mean that I'm exempt from it happening again.

I mean, I could very well get remarried someday and lose another spouse. I mean, you read about that. I, it's something that I have found, um, very comforting is reading the Puritans. Um, not, and I know you've talked about this and so has your brother, um, Pat, but, um, not all the Puritans are good and that's very true.

Um, but there are some, uh, like John Flavel, um, Richard Sibbs, those guys, um, you know, um, JC Ryle, those, those guys are, are pretty solid. And, and something that I've noticed in all of their lives, one, they've lost spouses, some of them, multiple spouses, some two to three spouses and then they remarried again and then they died.

And so the wife was there to bury them, but, but all in all, they suffered. And, and, and, and, you know, when you read this, the Puritans, I mean, you're thinking, wow, these guys were, I mean, you almost think they were so in tune with the Lord and with the spirit and they were just, you know, they were rocking it, man.

But they, they suffered and they suffered because as, as Christians, that's what we're, I almost call, I think that's what we're called to do. I mean, we're called to a life of suffering and that's, that's not appealing.

I mean, to the world, that's not an appealing thing. It's, it's a, you know, we want it easy. We want an easy life. We want to, we want to be comfortable. We want to retire and go to that beach and, you know, live our lives, our best lives now, you know, and, and that's just not the, that's just not the case.

But what a, what a life we will live. I mean, not only bad here, but what a life we have to look forward to in eternity.

Well, you use the words of first Peter for to this, you have been called because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example so that you might follow his steps. So that's exactly right. And, you know, I, I love to have theologians sometimes interrupt our show because they really, they really help us understand things.

And so.

I declare breakthroughs are coming for you. Sudden burst of God's goodness, not a trickle, not a stream, but a flood of God's power.

A flood. I was just, I just was reading the flood that destroys the foundation that was built on the sand. There's a flood coming that that's for certain. Okay. We don't have too much time left. You mentioned maybe get married again.

Possible Remarriage and Dating with Intent

Yeah. That's something that's that you would like. If the Lord brings a lady into your life. Sounds like it. You're not against that. Absolutely. Yeah.

I'm not against that whatsoever. No, no, not at all.

Since we know each other well enough. And I think I can get away with this without getting you offended at me. Do you think she might, after she meets you and finds out your story, maybe she doesn't want to be number three.

Well, you know, you know, it's funny, you know, it's funny about that. What's funny about that is my boss here at work. My manager says that I'm, she's not a believer, which I, and I think this is hysterical because she she's watched me go through this.

And I, and she's, she's amazed at, you know, that I'm still standing and, you know, all that. And that's nothing to be said about me. It's just, it's, I attribute that to the Lord and to his, to his strength and my weakness.

But, but what's funny is she, she calls me the black widower. Oh, see.

So at least I'm not the only one thinking such horrible thoughts.

No, you are not. You are not. No. But no, I, I think about that a lot because and, and not to, not to let the cat out of the bag or anything like that, but I've been, I've been, I've been talking to somebody and it's been, it seems like it's going in a good direction.

I really like her a lot. I feel very comfortable with her. You know, we're not walking down the aisle tomorrow or anything like that. But I pray every time we leave together to that, the Lord would direct us and guide us.

And, you know, again, that's been an issue with, with her. She struggles with, you know, she, something that she told me that I think was very profound. She said, I wish that you had two ex-wives that you hated, that you divorced.

That would be easier for me to, to handle than, than this. And I said, I understand that. I totally understand that. And I, and I, and I do, I, I know it's, it's not, it's not for everyone. It's, it's not a, it's not an easy thing to take knowing that you've had two wives that you've loved with all your heart.

But the thing that, that stands out and I've told her this too, I had two very candid and I always use that word. I don't know why. Maybe it's cause I liked John Candy so much back in the eighties as an actor,.

But.

We said, we, we talked pretty candidly about Beanie and Chris both. And they told me both that I want you to, to find someone and I want you to carry on what we have because what we have is good. And what we have is something of the Lord.

And you know, it's, it's marriage is a beautiful thing. It's a gift. It's a, it's something that the Lord gives us. He, he uses it again to mold us and to sanctify us to, to make us more like his son, Jesus.

And I, I, I so want to be a husband. I feel like I'm out of sorts, uh, so to speak, not being a husband. Um, and again, we're not walking down the aisle tomorrow. We're taking things a step at a time.

Um, but um, it's been good to have some conversations and companionship and some, you know, some things to, uh, to, to do in that nature. But, um, but yeah, it's, it's not hard. It's not easy. It's hard.

It's, uh, uh, again, it's, it's only by God's grace that that would be, you know, that he, that I would, you know, we would get to that point of marriage because I, and that's what, that's my desire. That's my intention.

That's what I've expressed to her. It's not, I don't want to date just to date and have fun. I want to date with, I'm dating you with intention. I want to be your husband someday, you know, she hasn't run away yet.

So that's, that's a good sign.

Well, I'm glad you told me that because I was going to say, if any listeners are out there, uh, as they've listened to your kind voice, and a great radio voice and good theology, if they were interested, I was going to be a matchmaker, but I'm not going to do that.

Oh man. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, yeah, that's fun. That's funny.

I'm going to chalk that up.

That could be a new calling for you.

I'm going to chalk that up to Arminius the dumb. So instead of Calvin the wise, Ron, thanks for being on the show today. I appreciate your joy, your laughter, your friendship. Thanks for being on the show.

Thank you, Mike. I appreciate it, man.