John MacArthur and the David Gray Situation

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Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. We are going to jump into it after a brief announcement.

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I have been traveling for 10 days and I know many of you want to hear about that. I have some encouragement to share with you and some observations, and I'm gonna leave that for another episode because there's been a lot in those 10 days that I haven't been able to get to, one of them being this situation in which

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John MacArthur is being attacked for a situation that occurred at Grace Community Church 20 or so years ago concerning a fellow named

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David Gray, and so I wanna get into some of the details of that in this particular episode, and I'll give you the reasons why we're doing that.

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promo code conversations, get yourself some American tea. Now, I want to talk about this situation, and John, why do you wanna talk about this situation, right?

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Are you a glutton for punishment? And I've wondered that a little bit as I started dipping my toe in, so to speak, because the battle lines immediately formed once I did this, and so here's some of the reasons

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I wrote down. Number one, and this is for those who are already somewhat initiated into this.

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I'm making this podcast with the understanding that many of you already know a little bit of what's going on, or at least you've heard that usually in this form, that John McArthur covered up, supported, was negligent in a situation concerning abuse, specifically abuse of children, and if you have kids in the car as you're listening,

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I don't know where I'm gonna go exactly, but I might get into some territory that you don't want them hearing, so just forewarning on that, but sexual abuse as well of children, and the insinuation is that McArthur is in support of a pedophile,

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I don't know how else to put it, really, and this has been, I looked on Twitter, I wanted to find out, was this new, how old is this particular accusation?

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It's pretty old, actually. It's been around for a while, but it just, it wasn't people that got any traction out of it, so all the information, really, that, as far as I know, at least most of the information that has been supposedly exposed, it's been available for quite some time.

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It's not really new, it's just been repackaged, it's just reached a platform that was able to phrase it in a particular way, and put it on a platform that people saw, eyeballs were on it, and it was able to get some traction, but this accusation has apparently been out there for quite some time, and if you do a

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Twitter advanced search, and just, you can type in the end of 2021, if you want, from the inception of Twitter, you'll find, if you put in the right keywords, you'll find these accusations, and people like Phil Johnson being tagged from Grace To You, what are you gonna do about this

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David Gray situation? So, I was not aware of it, I don't know why

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I would be aware of it, it just, it wasn't prominent, you probably wouldn't have heard of it, but now, it's everywhere, right?

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Everyone's talking about it, and the story about it dropped the day before Shepherd's Conference, I have to think that was probably on purpose, at a time when, for the next week, pretty much everyone at Grace To You, and Master Seminary, and Grace Community Church are going to be up to their ears in responding to the conference, and they wouldn't have time to really devote to engaging the story, and I don't know if that,

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I don't know, I'm not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet, I don't know if those thoughts were going through the heads of those who decided to run this, that particular day, but the correlation does seem to indicate that there probably was some forethought, and so, the design of this seems to be to damage

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John MacArthur specifically, to rip him down, and of course, he has a number of people doing that, and no one's perfect,

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I wanna say this at the outset, no one's perfect, John MacArthur's not a perfect man, he'd be the first to admit that to you, neither are the elders at Grace Community Church, nor the professors at the

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Master Seminary, nor the people who work at Grace To You, they're all sinners, right, just like me, just like you, they're all sinners, and they can get things wrong, that's very possible, and so,

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I've always had an openness to the idea that, especially at a church of 8 ,000 people, and who knows, in the course of 20 years, how many people would have cycled through that church, we could easily be talking about 50 ,000, 100 ,000 people,

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I mean, in a people group that large, and with that many elders, and I mean,

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John MacArthur's not supervising all these people, there's no way, there's a human scale issue here that can't really be overcome, and of course, there's going to be things that fall through the cracks, there's going to be situations that should've been prevented, there's gonna be sin, all that stuff is just going to happen when you have a big group of people, so on the outside,

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I just wanna say this, if there is a group of people, which some people seem to think there is, and if there is, a group of people that are just always defending

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MacArthur no matter what, think MacArthur's always in the right, think that there is no, that MacArthur's views are infallible, count me out of that group,

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I'm not in that group, MacArthur's not even in that group, in fact, during, I don't know if I've ever said this publicly, during my semester that I spent at Master Seminary in 2011,

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I actually challenged MacArthur directly in the student body for an eschatological view that he had, and I think

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I was respectful, I tried to be respectful with my question, but I was challenging him, I did disagree with him, and so I don't have a problem with thinking that MacArthur can get something wrong, all right, so for those who happen to be watching or listening, just know this is where I'm coming from,

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I'm pro -truth, I'm not necessarily pro -MacArthur in the sense that I think he's infallible or can do no wrong, or team blue, just rah -rah whatever

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MacArthur says, I'm not in that, I'm a MacArthurite, I'm not that, I'm not like I'm of MacArthur, but I'm also not someone who's, let's rip down MacArthur every chance we get, let's write stories about how close his house is to the beach even though 10 million people have houses that are just about as close to the beach, and let's talk about how there's a golf course at a country club down the road even though there's people that are in poverty conditions that are just as close to the golf course in the country club,

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I'm not grasping at straws to try to rip MacArthur every chance I get either, so to pick just one example of which

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I could pick many, so that's not where I'm coming from either, here is where I'm coming from,

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I am someone who has benefited from John MacArthur's ministry, yeah, there's things I disagree with here and there, no man is gonna agree with another man 100%, but I do have a respect for his teaching, and I have benefited from that, and I do believe that MacArthur is someone that years from now people will look back on and remember as a great

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Bible teacher from this era, I think that his commentaries, and I realize, look, staff writers are putting together many of the things he's preached into his commentaries,

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I realize that, I know that there's a whole industry around John MacArthur, I think anyone who doesn't realize that probably doesn't know how publishing works, but it's his material that has really helped me understand some things that were important to my development as a

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Christian, and I don't walk around with a MacArthur study

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Bible like I used to, and it's nothing personal against John MacArthur, and it's fine if you do, and in fact I think it's a great gift for someone who's going into college, a

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MacArthur study Bible, but I do have a MacArthur study Bible, I do reference,

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I do go to MacArthur commentaries to check myself sometimes, and I think a lot of pastors do across the

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United States, they've learned to respect him and so when there's a charge that's made, that's getting as much traction as this particular charge is getting,

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I do think it's important to look into it because John MacArthur lately especially has taken some very, very hard stands, especially on the

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COVID stuff and also on the social justice issue, and those are some of the reasons,

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I mean, as if he didn't have enough enemies already, but those are some of the main reasons I think now there's a huge push to discredit him,

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I mean, what was it, a few months ago, not even, I think I was doing a video on kind of a ridiculous attack on him, most of them in my mind have been pretty ridiculous, this one

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I don't see as ridiculous, this one hit, this one hit more than some of the other ones, which is why

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I wanna talk about it, but the one that I'm thinking of right now was an accusation that he was some kind of Christian nationalist, and then

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I put out a montage that just showed MacArthur over the years, and how if anything,

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MacArthur was more on the pietist side, he kind of leaned in that direction more, and didn't really, not that he thought it was wrong for Christians to be engaged politically, he didn't think it was wrong, but he kind of downplayed that role often, in fact, when

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I was there in 2011, I heard him preach that the only thing he expected from the government was to keep him from being shot on his way to church, and that he doesn't really expect anything from the government, and Christians aren't to look, to find their hope in the government, and it was, you know, someone who was like myself, who was semi -politically minded at the time, it was a bit discouraging to hear some of those things, because I just thought we should get involved, right, we should, and I think

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MacArthur, though, would agree with that, I think especially now he would agree with that more, and probably be more vocal about it, we should be involved, but he wasn't down with the religious right, so anyways,

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I put this montage out just showing that, look, MacArthur was never, like, on the right -wing political side of trying to mobilize

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Christians to vote for particular candidates, it just never was who, he didn't have that, he wasn't a Jerry Falwell, and the way that he was being painted was just inaccurate, right, and you had to get an edited video, missing context, both the context of his ministry, and the context of that sermon, to make that kind of pejorative fly, but this particular one is different than that in my mind, this particular attack is, it hits squarely between the eyes, it's a kill shot, for, and people are reacting to it that way,

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John MacArthur supports child abuse, that's really, in the popular way this is being discussed out there, what

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I'm seeing, that's the insinuation, that's the conclusion, that's what people are taking away from a series of pieces on this particular

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David Gray situation, and that's the issue that I, the thing

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I take issue with, so I'm giving away my bias before we even get started with all the material here, but I'll present what

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I have, and my bias, if there is a bias in this, is that I don't believe that John MacArthur supports child abuse, or a pedophile,

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I don't think he supports a pedophile in the sense that knowingly, someone who is guilty of pedophilia, unrepentant, that John MacArthur would support that person in ministry, or anything like that,

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I just don't think you can draw those conclusions, or that Grace Community Church, under his direction, would harbor pedophiles, these are the kinds of conclusions that are being reached, so, and that's generally what happens, when an article is put out there, even if the article kind of approaches the ledge, it doesn't quite jump off, the people who are reading it will then go the extra step, which is what

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I'm seeing, so I wanna go through some of the key things in the article, I've made a whole slide show, just to present the facts, and I will timestamp this, we're what, a little, almost 14 minutes in, so here's where I'm starting my discussion of the article and the primary sources as well, and I think that's really key in this, read the primary sources, if you read the primary sources in their entirety, and then read the particular article in question,

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I don't think you're gonna view that article the same way, if you're being honest about it, I really don't think, attempting to be objective, attempting to say, look,

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I'm not pro or con MacArthur, I'm pro the truth, and here are the primary sources, here's what we have, here's what we know, here's what the article leads us to believe,

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I think you're gonna find that those things are gonna diverge, so reason to talk about this, number one, spousal and parental abuse, and accusations of spousal and parental abuse are becoming more common, now, this has become more common, especially during COVID, before that, statistically at least in the

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United States, this kind of thing was falling, there didn't seem to be as much of it, it was going the opposite direction, but since COVID, that went up, and the accusations certainly, since the

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Me Too movement got going, are all around us, and so I think, partially because this is such a big issue,

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I'd like to discuss it, it's been an issue in the Southern Baptist Convention as well, and so I just thought, you know what, it's somewhat directly, or indirectly at least, related to things

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I've talked about before, and we're gonna have to get more used to this kind of thing, these kinds of accusations are gonna be hurled all over the place, so some of them are true,

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I'm sure, some of them are not, and we're just gonna have to know better how to handle them, so hopefully in me going through this, that will help with knowing how to do that to some extent, these accusations are 20 years old, so this is something we would normally think, probably that's really just a long time ago, but today those kinds of things are being brought up all the time,

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I mean remember the Judge Kavanaugh hearings, remember Roy Moore, remember, oh

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I'm trying to remember the guy's name, who ran for president, I really liked him, Herman Cain, right, remember what happened with Herman Cain, I mean this kind of stuff is happening on a more regular basis, the attempt was made on Joe Biden, and Joe Biden though unfortunately must be protected, that was the narrative, so it didn't happen to him, but Donald Trump, and sometimes there's legitimacy to them, sometimes there's not, and sometimes you can't tell, that's the thing that I think we don't like, people in our society, they don't like that, especially the social justice mob, and one of the things

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I've explained, I've explained this in my travels, is that they need to have immediate justice, because there's a limitation, once you die in a materialist worldview, there is no justice after that,

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Christians know there is, that's when true justice actually is just getting started, but for people who don't have that hope, they are looking at this material world, and they're thinking we need justice now, and it's not acceptable just to be neutral, or to think that, well there's not enough information here, and I'm gonna come down on that partially, with this

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David Gray situation, and it gets very hard after all the years, examining everything that we have, to come up with, how would you view this

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John, would you think he's guilty, I mean I'm gonna tell you kind of maybe where I, some of my leanings, but it's very hard, we don't always have information, and sometimes especially 20 years down the line, how do you come to a conclusion about something, that's not an acceptable, position in today's, you have to be on one side or the other, either the person's innocent as the pure driven snow, no matter what they've done, especially if they're a victim of abuse somehow, or they are guilty as all get out, and to say

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I don't know is not an acceptable answer, but I think we need to get used to, if we are gonna be about the truth saying, in some situations

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I don't know, I have concerns, here's where I have concerns, but I don't know, so that's number one, number two reportedly over 250 ,000 people, have accessed the original article, so a lot of people reading this particular article, on John MacArthur, the article contains serious accusations and insinuations, and the article reveals some popular assumptions, that need to be examined, so these are the reasons

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I decided to, not just dip my toe in, but actually wait in, and I hope I really don't wanna do, any more episodes on this,

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I'm hopefully gonna give you the comprehensive, John Harris take on this in one episode, I'm sure no matter what

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I say, there's gonna be people on one side or the other, thinking that I didn't go far enough in one direction, but I'm just gonna be honest with you, that's hopefully what you expect from me, and that's what

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I intend to deliver, is just my honest opinion, I don't wanna root for one side, just because they happen to share my political views, or John MacArthur's guilty, he's guilty, but I'm not entirely convinced here,

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I'm not convinced by the information, that John MacArthur is guilty of the charge, of knowingly covering for a pedophile, or something like that, there's different iterations of it, so let's talk about the timeline here,

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I think timeline's important, it's a complex situation, and often in complex situations, it's important to put those details in a visual format, so I'm a visual guy,

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I like to see things visually, here's a brief timeline, and I'll get into details, so Elaine Gray, the wife of David Gray at the time, approached the elders at Grace Community Church in 2001, on May 10th, she had filed a legal, there was an incident on May 10th, and then on May 11th, she filed a legal separation, and obtained a restraining order the next day, so within 24 hours of an incident, and the incident concerns, according to her, abuse of one of the children, that David Gray was inflicting physical pain on them, that was beyond what he should have, and this event was, eventually led in a very short period of time, to legal separation, and a restraining order, so then shortly after this, she goes to, after filing these things, to Grace Community Church elders, hoping they would protect her, and her children, and get

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David professional help, according to the article in question, now,

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Grace Community Church, starts a process with her, first it's inputted with Bill Shannon, Carrie Hardy becomes the counselor, but Grace Community Church, warns

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Elaine Gray about discipline, when she refuses to follow some of the counsel, now one thing,

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I'm gonna just point out things along the way, that I think are important to remember, just keep it in your mind, one important thing to remember here, is that Elaine Gray, was the one who initially requested counseling, so she really did think that there, whatever she knew at that time, and throughout the counseling process, they had

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I think jointly, eight or so counseling sessions, she believed that there was hope in some way, or there was some way to navigate, the differences between the couple, or to get

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David help, there was a way to actually provide that kind of help, and to come, I mean the purpose of counseling, if you go to Grace Community Church, is going to be to restore the relationship, for the husband and wife to come back together as a family, to repair that relationship, and so she had some kind of presumably, an intention to do just that, now, she refused in the, and we'll get into some of the details, but she refused to accept, and to follow some of the direction from Kerry Hardy, especially concerning letting

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David Gray back in the house, and as a result of that, of refusing the counsel,

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Grace Community Church sent her multiple letters, over several months in 2001 to 2002, the letters threatened Elaine, this is according to the article in question, with church discipline if she fails to comply, with the elders request to drop the protective order, against David and take him back, so this leads to August 18th, 2002,

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John MacArthur announced the final step, of church discipline, and the article claims, that Elaine had not yet reported her husband's physical, and mental abuse to police at this time, important to remember that, that's another fact

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I want you to stick in your mind, so number one Elaine, with the hope presumably of restoring the relationship, approached

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Grace Community Church, Grace Community Church wanted the counsel, they didn't force it on her, she wanted this, and she had not yet reported her husband's physical, and mental abuse to police, now the thing that you need to realize, is that there had been some kind of a report, she had reported to a court, because there was a legal separation filed, and a restraining order, so there had to have been some kind of report, about something, but it wasn't

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I guess reported to the police, that's the only conclusion I'm left to draw, from the information provided, so August 18th,

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John MacArthur announces his final discipline step, and there is no nothing reported to the

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LAPD, then we have Elaine Gray, reporting to the

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LAPD, David Gray's abuse in 2003, I'm just giving you,

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I'm gonna try to get through this a little quicker, just give you the big bullet points here, 2004, Carrie Hardy and Bill Shannon, are written up by LAPD, it says in the article in question, that Hardy was charged with two misdemeanors, failing to report child abuse, intimidating a witness,

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Shannon was ordered to appear at a city attorney hearing, in 2004, Al Mohler defends

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Grace Community Church, this is so typical Al Mohler in my mind, there's two articles that talk about this,

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Al Mohler writes a paper for Hardy's defense, at the request of Grace Community Church, the paper argued that Hardy should be exempt, from reporting

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Grace abuse, based on religious freedom, an argument Mohler said he would not make today, and the thing that I just thought was typical

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Mohler, was that the way he distances himself, from previous positions that he held, and it doesn't seem, at least from the other article

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I was reading, it's limited to this case, it's in general Mohler doesn't wanna make that, the argument he even made at that point, and people do change, but Mohler's just had a lot of those situations, where he changes his position on things, seemingly as the society changes, and goes in a different direction,

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Mohler kind of I don't know, there's just many situations I can point to, especially critical race theory, homosexual orientation and reparative therapy, abuse situations,

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Mohler kind of follows to some extent, or extends an olive branch, to what's popular it seems, but you have him defending

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Kerry Hardy, and we don't have a copy of that particular paper, but Al Mohler did get involved, which shows that this was a matter, that was taken seriously on some level, to get

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Al Mohler involved, I mean this was at the time, a situation that was being taken seriously, and then in 2005

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Hardy's case is dismissed, so the case against him was dismissed, or not prosecuted, the plea of not guilty was either,

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I don't know, I'm not sure exactly what the conclusion is, I know the articles in question, want you to draw the conclusion, that Kerry Hardy was guilty, but that there was a statute of limitations, or I don't know, we don't know, but we shouldn't probably just assume, we should probably just accept that, okay there's something we don't know for 100%, based on the available information, that's publicly out there, and all we know is that there were no charges, that were brought against Kerry Hardy, the counselor in the situation with David Gray, all right, so I would be hesitant right away, to then use this absence of evidence, as evidence of some kind of wrong deed, or misdoing by insinuating something,

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I would just say, let's just stick with what we know, what we know is that it was dismissed, or is not prosecuted, the not guilty plea was somehow sustained, and in some way, and Kerry Hardy, the counselor, there were no charges brought against him, or the church, or anyone at the church, so legally speaking, the police would have known about this situation, the court would have known about this situation, they would have had the available information, that we don't have at that time, and they did not choose, to go ahead and prosecute

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Kerry Hardy, that's important, I think to know, so there isn't, there has been somewhat of a vetting process, at some, the same legal system, the same system, that ended up convicting

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David Gray, did not end up convicting Kerry Hardy, so just hold, so a few things, number one, before we even move farther, just remember,

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Elaine Gray approached, the elders at Gray's Community Church, wanted help, number two, Elaine Gray had not reported to the police, anything physical or mental, as far as abuse, but she had reported to the court, on some level, in order to get a restraining order, the situation with her husband, and then number three, keep in your mind, that there was no conviction, of Kerry Hardy, or anyone at Gray's Community Church, over this particular issue, so let's get into the details now, 8 -21 -2001, and 4 -30 -2002, neighbors testify, that David Gray stalked his home, in violation of his restraining order, and so I've read, these are all documents, primary source documents, that I've read, and neighbors are saying, that David Gray, is looking into his house, he's showing up near the house,

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I'm gonna admit, that's kind of strange, in my mind, I'm not sure exactly, why he would do that,

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I haven't been in this situation, I know, people who have been, where their life changes, drastically one day, they're not allowed to be, with their kids or their wife, they don't seem to be able to, in their mind, they feel helpless, they can't defend themselves, and yeah, sometimes they'll go driving, past that house,

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I mean they're homesick, they're you know, so I don't know, what was going through, David Gray's head, but this probably doesn't help him, all that much, and you do have neighbors, testifying that this took place, so,

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I don't know, that we can make much more of it, than that, but there does seem to be, at least a willing violation, of the restraining order, that would, it would appear that way at least, 4 -25 -2002, so April of 2002,

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George Bonsignor, Bonsignor, I think that's how you pronounce it, and his wife, confront

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Elaine, and offered to take the children, or babysit them, now there's, this is an interesting thing, a little bit, that their testimony conflicts,

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Elaine was saying, that they wanted to take the children, they're saying that they were just offering, to babysit the children, and that they weren't,

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I guess as aggressive, as Elaine remembers them being, in the article in question, so there's a he said, she said thing going on, and after this amount of time, 20 years, how in the world, are you gonna get to the bottom, of some of these things, this problem is already presenting itself, there's no way to, 430, so just five days later,

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Kerry Hardy, the elder at Grace Community Church, counseling Elaine and David, Gray, quote quotes, he says, that David has expressed sorrow, for any past wrongdoing, towards you or the children, has repented of a sin towards God, and has taken practical steps toward change, now here, this is really significant,

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I want you to remember this, as we go through, the issue that isn't as much, what did

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David do, as much as it is, has David repented, at this time, remember,

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Elaine during the whole course, of this counseling, Elaine hasn't even reported, anything to the police, she wasn't even aware, of any possible sexual mishaps, with David Gray, during the entire course, of the discipline, the counseling, all of it, she was there in goodwill, you would think at least, she's initiating the counseling, she's relaying that she wants counseling, that she thinks, that they can work through these issues, so the intention of, the whole idea behind counseling, for those who don't know, especially someone, who's attending

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Grace Community Church, and this is I think maybe, a place where I can provide, some added context, just because I was there, for a summer and a semester,

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I did a semester of school there, and I'm familiar, actually I have an uncle, who's a member there right now,

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I'm somewhat familiar with, their new static counseling, they don't call it that now, I think they just call it biblical counseling, but if you're a member there, and you understand, what biblical counseling is, which the people there, would understand that, if you've been there for any length of time, and if you didn't, and you requested it, on the front end, you're gonna know, kind of what you're getting, within the first meeting generally,

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I'd be shocked if you didn't, the whole intention behind it, is going to be, to restore relationships, they're gonna use probably like,

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Ken Sandy Peacemaker stuff, they're gonna use, I mean I don't even know, all the resources that are out there now,

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I'm just remembering, I took, these are two courses I took, when I was at masters, biblical counseling, and conflict resolution, so you use like Jay Adams stuff, and the people who have kind of, built off of Jay Adams, and their whole attempt, is within the body of the church, with the in the submission to the elders, who especially the elder helping navigate this, there's going to be homework given, and all of it is going to be, with the intent of bringing about repentance, and then restoration, and so, no matter how bad the sin is, now there are some things

32:36

I'm positive, that Grace Community Church, I murdered a guy, you're coming in right, there are things that are gonna, be reported, there are things that, they're gonna say, we'll counsel you, but you need to turn yourself into, the legal authorities, you gotta understand though during this time, according to what we know, the elders at Grace Community Church, had no knowledge of any sexual abuse, they had no knowledge of, they had knowledge of the things revealed in counseling, which revealed a tendency towards anger, some, we could categorize it as physical abuse, they may have categorized it, and in fact the

33:14

Grays may even have categorized it as, just harshness, unintentional harshness, they were aware of some of these things, and that's why it's important, some of the facts

33:24

I'm gonna get to, but it's important to note that, they actually, had security from the church, escort the children, to the home, found, a place, to stay for Elaine until the restraining order, was brought into effect, they had supervision, and provided a neutral location at the church, for David Gray to see the kids,

33:46

I mean they took all these steps, and so, there is, they did know that, there was at least the accusation, they did know that, there was at least a tendency towards, harshness or harm, and they were taking precautions, they were taking this seriously, however, in the course of this, for some reason, okay and I don't know,

34:07

I don't have all the facts, but all I know is that for some reason, the decision was made not to bring that to the police, and this is what

34:19

Al Mueller defended, that they didn't have to do that, Elaine Gray did not see in that time, a reason for her, to bring it to the police, until even after the discipline, so there was actually a time in there, between the end of the counseling, and the discipline, where Elaine presumably, wouldn't have been attending the church, she could have reported this stuff, she didn't report it right, and Elaine also admits to, being overly harsh, in her treatment of the kids, participating in some of the things, that we'll get into in a moment, but like, tying the oldest to the bed rail, or the bed post, to keep him during the night, from abusing the other kids, because it sounds like, they had some real behavior issues, with the oldest, and they both disciplined their kids, they both spanked their kids, and so there's admission, that they tried to kind of, shield that from the neighbors, or they didn't want the neighbors, thinking that they were abusing their kids, because they just wanted to biblically, practice spanking, they had a whacker they used, so and I'll get into more of the details, on this in a moment,

35:25

I just I want to bring it up now, just to say that, there was guilt in both parties, at least they had both admitted, now

35:31

David Gray much more so, but there was an admission on both, that hey you know this is a problem, and to some extent, we're both guilty of this, we want to restore our family, we have to restore a relationship, that's what the elders would have thought, they didn't see a need to go to the police, most of the information, that's available now that you're reading, on the articles in question, wasn't available to those counselors, timeframe is really important in this, and when you read an article,

35:54

I noticed one of the things with this article, the original one especially, is you read here's what happened 20 years ago, and then it's like a flash forward, to some other point, and he was convicted of molestation, and then you go back, and there's kind of this back and forth, the assumption that you're, so you're on this emotional roller coaster, hearing horrible thing here, and then you're like this is what the church did, but if you're intaking it, in the way that the article has it set up, you're just following that progression, instead of intaking it, according to an actual timeline,

36:26

I think it's going to change, the way you emotionally perceive that, so I think it's helpful for us, to go through things one by one, that's why

36:35

I'm doing this as objectively, and factually as we possibly can, so you're not just, your heart strings aren't just tugged, and then all of a sudden, you're back in John MacArthur, shaming

36:47

Elaine Gray, let's talk about when some of this evidence, was brought forth, when the convictions were made, all of that, and we'll get into some of the issues, connected to supporting

36:59

David Gray, after the conviction, but I just want to give you the timeline, so we have a confrontation, from Bonsegu and his wife,

37:12

George Bonsegu, Kerry Hardy saying David's repenting, really key thing to just keep in mind, people can do wrong things, and then repent, and you can restore relationships, so there's an admission here, yeah

37:24

David did some wrong things, David's repented, David doesn't want to, David's making strides, David's doing the homework,

37:30

David's showing progress, this is really key to remember, and I think as Christians, we need to realize, someone can do horrible things, someone can be the

37:39

Apostle Paul, horrible sins, murdering people, and that doesn't mean, we don't have a testing period, or Paul are you really on the level here, but trust can be built, trust can be restored, and trust can be extended, and the point of this kind of counseling, would be for trust to be extended, and that's what the assumption of a counselor, like Kerry Hardy would be, that Elaine is going to extend that trust to David, and it wasn't happening, and it frustrated

38:08

Kerry Hardy, and it eventually developed into a situation, in which

38:14

Elaine was just unsubmissive, in the mind of Kerry Hardy, and the elders of Grace Community Church, who had been aware of this, and that's what led to the discipline and everything, so let's jump forward to June of 2002,

38:28

Hardy testifies, this is you can, I'm putting all the links here by the way, so if someone wants to get these primary sources, that I think are important to read, if you really wanna understand the situation, then go to the link in the info section,

38:42

I am gonna post this for patrons, but I'm going to also, I'm gonna see if I can figure out a way, to post this outside of Patreon as well, so people can just access it,

38:54

Hardy testifies on, that Grace Community Church, initially took Elaine's accusations seriously,

39:02

David was shocked and confused, but humbly submitted and sought growth, the church provided Elaine, with a security escort and place to stay, they provided a safe neutral location at church, for David to be with kids, supervised initially, and they observed no threat,

39:16

Elaine had a pattern of dishonesty, according to Hardy, undermine David with the children, and was miserable being married to David, prior to the incident, and looking for an excuse to leave, she eventually left the church, and stopped attending counseling sessions, he places equal blame on both parties, now this is key to me, he places equal blame on both parties,

39:35

Hardy and you can read it, it's at the end, Hardy basically says, look they both contributed to this, but the difference between the two is that,

39:41

David is actually making progress, showing humility, showing spiritual growth, apologizing, Elaine doesn't want to receive this, that's the accusation, and you know my dad's a pastor,

39:51

I grew up in a church, I have seen situations before, many times by the way, where there's a marriage situation, a counseling situation, and the spouse, ends up on the front end, you know the motives seem pure, the motives seem like, what you'd expect, we want to get back together, but actually what's really going on is, the spouse is looking for someone authoritative, who the other spouse respects to take their side, so they're looking for justification, to do what they're already intended in their heart to do, not saying that's

40:24

Elaine, I don't know, but it seems like, that's what Kerry Hardy thought about Elaine, that Elaine wasn't actually there in good faith,

40:30

Elaine was there, because she wanted someone to take her side, and she wanted justification, for what she had already intended, so, then you have on the 8th of, this would be

40:45

August, Pastor Alvin Barber Jr. testifies on behalf of Elaine, now this is a pastor,

40:51

I don't know exactly what their connection is, I think this is the church Elaine ended up going to, he's not with us anymore, he's passed on, but this particular pastor, basically testifies on behalf of Elaine, listened to one of the counseling sessions, that took place, and determined that there was, basically negligence on the part of Grace Community Church, and Kerry Hardy, that they were not giving the best counsel, so it's hard to tell,

41:21

I mean, something like this, I definitely think we should take into account, it's hard to tell exactly, where this pastor is coming from, or what the nature of his relationship is, all we know is that, he had married them, and he knew them like 20 years before that, or perhaps,

41:37

I'm trying to remember now, because I read it, and he had known them for, I think it was 20 years, an extended period of time, but on this particular situation, it's hard to know exactly, how much he knew of that immediate situation, was it all from Elaine, was it just Elaine, and one counseling session, it's really, that was one of the things, that I noticed in this was,

42:00

I'm like, it's hard based on one counseling session, when there has been eight, with the couple together, and then

42:06

I think a few were Elaine, and David had separate counseling sessions, it's really hard to figure out, if at what stage the counseling is in, and if you just brought out, here's the harshest thing, my counselor said to me, it's like, well, did you see the three before that, where the counselor was being gentle, and then finally got to the point, where they were frustrated, that they were going in circles with you or something, so I don't know, there's just not a lot, that we can take out of this, but I think,

42:35

I wanna at least include it in this analysis, that there was a pastor, who did seem to think

42:40

Elaine was in the right on this, from another church, so for whatever that's worth, and then we have

42:46

Elaine Gray, responding to Kerry Hardy, these are all the court testimonies, claiming he was an enlightened, so here's, this is interesting to me, let me just read this, and then

42:57

I'll give you my analysis, Elaine Gray responds to Kerry Hardy, claiming he was an unlicensed former pharmacist,

43:03

I kid you not, that's like in the first, he's a former pharmacist, who lied about her motives, took the side of her husband, based on insufficient evidence,

43:12

I'm gonna stop right here, you gotta ask yourself, why did she go to an unlicensed former pharmacist, she initiated this, what was the purpose of, if he didn't have credibility, or was she just in,

43:26

I think maybe what the Me Too crowd would say, was she was in a cult group think, and she was getting out of it, I mean, okay, but it, she didn't think of him that way, when she first started going there, and there's no evidence, you can say it's called group think, it's just circumstances have changed, that's the only thing we know, based on the evidence available, and he lied about her motives apparently, took the side of her husband, based on insufficient evidence, refused to read his counseling homework, in which he itemized his sins,

43:55

I wanna address this one real quick, so Kerry Hardy refused to look at some homework, I have a screenshot of one of the pages here, some items have been redacted, and this isn't the whole homework, which a little bit unhelpful,

44:08

I wish, but it itemizes things that he did, that he threatening, he threatened to,

44:15

I guess, I think this must be one of his children, to get rid of her, to take her away, to juvenile hall, he disciplined her in anger, talks about tying up, locking up the child, now the article in question, that is revealing all these things, really tries to make the case, that this is unique to David, when you read the document,

44:38

I'm gonna show you at the end, what you find is that David's testimony, at least, is that actually no, this is stuff his wife did as well, and I'm gonna get to the reasons for it, but I'm angry when

44:51

I read this, I was like, oh my goodness, this guy's terrible, perhaps he is, this very well could be the case, but when

44:57

I read the testimony at the end, I thought, wait a minute, I need to back up a little bit, this is really bad, but it may not be quite as bad as I thought initially, and there's things

45:08

I don't know, so this is what I wanna encourage people, be careful of knee -jerk reactions, when you don't have all the information, so this is some information, that has been presented and put out there, and the counseling homework, sometimes, and I know this, just because I've been through, some of these counseling courses, and I've been through both by the way,

45:30

I've been through integrated counseling courses, integrated with psychology,

45:35

I've also been through biblical counseling courses, and both of them actually have elements of this, where you go through these exercises, homework, and some of the homework is just for you, it's not meant to be shared, with the counselor, or anyone else, it's just you, and it's supposed to be you getting out your sins, so that you can have them clearly in front of you, and you can confess them to the

45:58

Lord, and it's something between you and God, oftentimes, this is actually a very common homework assignment, and that's what

46:07

I think this probably is, that's what it appears to be, now of course, it's being screenshotted, and putting in front of the whole watching world, it's probably embarrassing to David Gray, but it wouldn't surprise me, that the counselor would not wanna look, at that list of sins, the counselor already knew there were sins, thus why they had the supervision at the church, thus why even when

46:32

Kerry Hardy talks about the case, in various situations, he emphasizes that there's repentance going on, that repentance from what?

46:42

There had to have been something sinful, for there to be repentance, so there was an awareness, that there was a problem here, and there was a problem related to abuse of some kind, that there was an awareness of it, but there was a determination made, that this wasn't to the extent that take it to police, this was something solvable, there was a situation that protected

47:00

Elaine, and her kids from David, if that was the case, and so he would not have had a reason in his mind, to look at this personal homework, and this is just, you gotta remember this is a counseling situation, this is the whole intent behind this, is to repair the relationship, through repairing the souls, of the individuals parties involved, inaccuracy, he inaccurately apparently, according to Elaine Gray, described her husband as laid back and quiet, now this is another thing, the sequence here is important,

47:36

Carrie Hardy says, that the husband was laid back and quiet initially, he was surprised, that the husband would be accused of abuse, but they took it seriously, they gave her a place to stay, they gave her a security escort from the church, but the husband was laid back and quiet, so she's using this as, you're describing my husband as laid back and quiet, yeah he said initially, before the charges were made, that was one of the reasons he didn't suspect, but so there's a twisting going on here, that he was aware of significant abuse, he failed to exhibit

48:07

Christian love, he harassed Landon and emotionally abused her, used cult like tactics, now none of these things, are specific enough for us to really evaluate, they're just they're accusations, but there's no specifics, he facilitated social ostracization from her friends, he was motivated by preserving his public image, and possibly wounded pride, so there's speculation now going on, on what his motives are, so Elaine Gray's testimony, she's saying that he questioned her motives, but then she turns around and questions his motives, she claims her husband abused her and the children, for three years, so this is 2002, so that would be since 1999, so she's been abused for three years, but remember sequencing here, she didn't realize it was a problem, until they actually went to counseling in 2001, that's when she realized this is a problem, so now she's coming to a new realization, it seems like, actually she's starting to think,

49:06

I've been abused longer than I thought I was being abused, and you know what, that sometimes does happen with abused victims, they do sometimes have a situation, where they're being abused, they figure it's normal, something over the top happens, and then they start questioning everything, and realizing

49:21

I've been abused for longer, so that's possible that that is true, that he had a long history of violence with his family, and had emotionally abused her for 19 .5

49:30

years, which led to a decline in her health, so her doctor said that she had better health, through being separated from him, and now it's 19 .5

49:37

years, that's pretty much I think the length of their marriage, almost, that she had been abused during the course of the marriage, this long, and so she's just realizing this now, and so the charge that she's making has changed, it's changed from,

49:51

I'm concerned about a situation that came up, which freaked me out, and now there's a separation, and we wanna work through it, to this is just part and parcel to who

50:04

David Gray is, fundamental to who he is, this is what he's done for two decades, and there's really no repairing it, especially with an ex -pharmacist, who has horrible motives, and all of that.

50:21

So that's her testimony, so it's very different, I would encourage you, if you're gonna try to have an opinion on this, you don't have to take all my analysis, but at least read for yourself,

50:32

Elaine Gray's testimony from the 10th of September 2002, and also read the

50:41

June 2002 testimony from Hardy, Kerry Hardy, read both of those things, at the very least, there's really three primary documents, those would be in my mind, those would be two of them that you need to read, and I wouldn't even put an opinion out there about it, unless you've read them, and again, these are just a he said, she said, but that's what we have,

51:03

David Gray starts prison ministry, teaching Greek discipleship, et cetera, which gains the praise of MacArthur, and others on staff at Grace Community Church, we know that at least by 2015,

51:15

Gray's already been convicted of child abuse, he's in prison, and he starts this ministry, and people on staff at Grace Community Church praise it, and so this is one of the things that's being used now, to say like, look, they're supporting a child abuser, and there's a few things that I wanna say about this, and I'll say most of it to the end, but one of them is that, throughout this whole thing, what you notice is, even with Kerry Hardy's testimony, it's that David Gray has repented,

51:46

David Gray has repented, David Gray is changing, David Gray is on a good trajectory, David Gray wants to reconcile, if you have someone who's done something horrible, and then they repent, let's say they even become saved, who knows, how do you treat that person?

52:01

And now they have a prison ministry, and they're teaching things like Greek, I mean, you don't just learn that, discipleship, homiletics, they don't have to do that in prison, certainly, what gain do they have, what kind of things can they get from the church to help them, other than prayer at this point,

52:20

I mean, it's decades down the line, David Gray's still going to be trying to curry favor with the leaders at Grace Community Church, for what purpose?

52:29

His wife's gone, his kids are probably alienated from him, maybe you could say it's the only support he has, well, according to his letters, he seems to have plenty of contacts and friends in prison,

52:43

I mean, it's odd to me, it's odd to me, and I'll show you something else that makes it even more odd at the end, a social media post from him, but this gains the praise of MacArthur, now, if David Gray is truly repented, even if he did some really horrible, horrible things, and he, let's say he's a

52:59

Christian, he's repented, he's, what do you do with a person like that who's leading a ministry? That's a question you got to ask, one of the things that I think is an assumption perhaps behind a lot of the thinking

53:10

I see out there regarding this is that, well, someone who does something bad, they can't repent, or they can't change, you can never praise them again, there's never, it's sort of the cancel culture thing, there is no redemption in any of it, well, maybe there is,

53:23

I'd like to suggest that actually, that's what Christianity is about, people who've done horrible things, things that our society would say are the worst things, things that legitimately are the worst things, can repent, can come to know the

53:35

Lord, I think Hitler could come to know the Lord, I think Stalin could come to know the Lord, in theory, not saying they did, if the

53:43

Apostle Paul can, why not? All right, so David Gray denied parole for 10 years, and by the way,

53:51

I just, the thought came to my mind, well, David Gray, he's been a Christian the whole time or something, maybe that's the case, maybe he's always through this whole process claimed to be a

54:00

Christian, what about someone like David, murders someone, commits adultery with the guy's wife,

54:06

I mean, is there, can you repent from that? All right, so whether Christian or not, there is hope for repentance and restoration.

54:12

Okay, 3 -11 -2022, David Gray denied parole for 10 years, so that was just recently, he, the evidence seems to be, at least in the minds of those who made this decision, strong enough to keep

54:24

David Gray in prison for another decade, so that is, you know, significant, that needs to be taken into account.

54:33

Now, here are some of the reasons, I'm gonna give you some of the reasons I'm skeptical about the spin that is being put on this from the articles in question,

54:43

I'm gonna go through the accusations, insinuations and assumptions, and these are direct quotes from the main article in question that broke this whole story supposedly, but even though the information's been out there for a while, but really, at least made the story popular.

54:56

Accusations, here's one, Carrie Hardy, a former Grace Community Church associate, pastor and personal assistant to John MacArthur, told her she needed to model for her children how to suffer for Jesus by enduring

55:07

David's abuse. I thought that was horrible, I read that, I was like, that is horrible advice, and if that, you know, just, you know, he's beating her, you know, that's what

55:16

I'm envisioning, he's beating her, he's beating the children, you just gotta suffer, and then I realized when

55:21

I read the two documents that I just presented to you, the testimony from Carrie Hardy, that actually, this suffering for Jesus was not about physical anything, this was about, quote unquote, emotional abuse, and there's a range in that, that can range from horrible things, and psychological, well,

55:43

I don't even, should I even use that word, I just alienated half the audience who don't believe in psychology, well maybe not half the audience, a portion of the audience, how about I use another word, just emotional manipulation, how's that?

55:55

So that can range from emotional manipulation, gaslighting, that kind of thing, to mild things, being overly critical about certain things, there's a range in there, and so that if David, who at this point in Carrie Hardy's mind is repentant, is making strides, wants to love his wife, wants to love his family, and that's the assumption at least, right, at least in Carrie Hardy's mind, and he wants, he should be able to come back into the home, we're trying to restore this, and she is saying, she is afraid that, well what if he, he may not physically do something, but he can emotionally, he'll do something, it's in that context that Carrie Hardy's like, well then look, if you're gonna suffer, if it's not something that's illegal, or directly harmful, it's something that you can withstand, would be the assumption, then suffer for Jesus, and be an example to your children, there are biblical principles on this, are there not, to husbands, right, are the command, the ideal is that they live with their wives, in an understanding way, absolutely true, wives are commanded to submit to their husbands, even husbands that aren't

57:11

Christians, that you may win them without a word by your behavior, so this is probably what he's trying to evoke, and the way that the article, portrays this, is that you, or at least the accusation seems to be, that you have this elder, who is gonna make the wife go into a combat zone, and you don't get that impression, when you actually read the words of that particular elder, that that's what he's trying to do, you know, what kind of abuse is it, it's emotional abuse, but there, like I said, is a bit of a scale, there's a spectrum when it comes to that, what constitutes emotional abuse, and one of the things that I'm concerned with, about the

57:57

Me Too movement, is sometimes the accusations that are used can be vague, or they can be, and I'm talking about today, not back 20 years ago in this particular case, but the way that things are perceived today, is if you say emotional abuse, you oftentimes, you don't even have to prove what it means, you know, it can be, oh, it's so hard,

58:14

I don't even have to give you the specifics, because it's just, it's so traumatic bringing it up, and you know,

58:20

I realize there are situations like that, but, and there is such thing, I think as emotional abuse, I mean, you can definitely be really mean and horrible, and you know, don't tell me words will never hurt me, words do hurt, at the same time though, you know, there is, there's a line, there are things that are, can be critical, there are things just humans do, and they're normal every day, that can be considered mean, there can be mean things someone says, that they're trying to stop doing, and would that be considered emotional abuse?

58:48

No. And so, so anyway, that's one of the things that I just, I thought, man, that's a really poor way to write this, because you get this one impression about this, and then when you read

59:00

Gary Hardy's testimony, you're like, that's not what he's saying. Insinuations. Here's some quotes.

59:07

Despite being mandated by California law to report child abuse, Grace Community Church never reported David Gray's abuse to authorities.

59:14

Now there's an insinuation here, that there's kind of a coverup. Grace Community Church is covering up the abuse. In fact,

59:19

David Gray lost his position at Grace Community Church teaching, and then there's, the claim in the article is that, they passed him off basically, that they were trying to find a place for him to work, and he ended up working for the public schools, and so, they sent a known, you almost get the impression, they sent a known child abuser, into the public school system, because they don't want them around their kids, when we don't know the motive, it could very easily be that, and there might even be a policy on it,

59:49

I'm not sure, that in a situation of this magnitude, where there's counseling going on, because the marriage is on the rocks, they don't want someone working in a ministry at the church, who has a marriage on the rocks, that there's certain character qualifications one must have, to be working at a church, and working in ministry is a bit different, than working in a secular world, especially in the minds of those at Grace Community Church.

01:00:12

That's perfectly possible, that that was the reason that they did that, but the insinuation is that, well, there's a coverup, they never reported it, well, because it was already reported to the court, before counseling ever started,

01:00:26

Elaine Gray had reported to the court something, in order to get a restraining order, so what would they have to report, that hadn't already been reported?

01:00:39

To the police, I guess, I mean, look, Elaine Gray didn't even do that, between the time the counseling stopped, and the discipline took place, she didn't even report to the police, so they're trying to show, that there's a negligence going on, and perhaps there is, perhaps there is some negligence, in fact, reading through this whole thing,

01:00:59

I've kind of thought, this probably could have been handled a lot better, but what this particular, the way that this is phrased, insinuates something, that may just not be the case, that Gray's Community Church, trying to cover something up here, doesn't seem like it, asking

01:01:17

Al Mohler to write stuff about it, they wanna protect themselves, but they don't seem, they're pretty honest about it, they know this is, by the time it goes to court, it's in the public record, there's no escaping that, and so let's keep going here,

01:01:33

Shannon added that the protective order, violated First Corinthians 710, which instructs women, not to separate from her husbands,

01:01:40

Elaine testified, now there's an insinuation here, and this is something I wanna say, for probably tomorrow, or perhaps next week, there's a

01:01:48

Russell Moore article out, on this subject of separation, and this is an underlying theological issue, that is, there's a shift,

01:01:57

I think in theology, because of situations like this, situations like this, are driving evangelicals, to change their theology, on a divorce, and perhaps even separation, you also have in this, that they took it seriously, so here's the thing,

01:02:18

Grace Community Church, literally gave Elaine Gray, a security escort, and had her stay somewhere else, until the order, the order of protection, or the restraining order was in effect, obviously they're okay, with some measure, of separation temporarily, obviously, it's clear as day, they're not, in all circumstances, they're not saying, you stay with an abusive husband, but the insinuation here, that a lot of people, are reading this article, they come away with, that's what they think, it's not, doesn't match the facts, what they'd be against, is a unwillingness, to ever come back together, that that should be temporary, at best, and there should not be, a divorce, that's really,

01:03:08

I'm sure the theology, that's underlying this, but it's phrased, in the most unreasonable way, and the insinuation is that, they think you should just stay, in the war zone, which isn't true, another insinuation,

01:03:23

Hardy accused Elaine, in the declaration of having, a tendency to exaggerate, and exercising faulty logic, and irrational thinking, in contrast,

01:03:30

Hardy said David Gray, was fairly laid back, and that after several monitored visits, between David and his children, our church concluded, that monitors were not necessary, now this is just taking, cherry picking, it's taking one snippet, from one statement, and one snippet, from another part of the statement, and then just, bring them together, as if this was exhaustive, this is all that really, the only significant thing, that Kerry Hardy had to say, that's just not true, there were other things said, about Elaine and David, even negative things about David, in that particular testimony, and it wasn't that Elaine, only had a tendency to exaggerate, and exercise faulty logic, and irrational thinking, she wasn't just reduced down, to just that,

01:04:15

David Gray, wasn't reduced down, to just being fairly laid back, in fact

01:04:20

I pointed out earlier, they mean that was, why he was shocked initially, that he was surprised, and that they took it seriously though, he's always fairly laid back,

01:04:27

I didn't think he was like that, so, there's a contrast going up, here's how the man's treated, here's how the woman's treated, can you see this, can you see, it's just playing into these stereotypes, and if you read, what

01:04:42

Hardy actually said, there's a lot more to it, than just, what's quoted here,

01:04:48

I mean he actually believed, that yeah Elaine did have these tendencies, and at the bottom of it, she thinks that, she just doesn't really wanna be with her husband, and with David Gray, he did say that David Gray was at fault, but he was repenting basically, so it wasn't just that he's fairly laid back, and that just, cause he's a guy or something, and that runs through the entire assumption, of the statement that Kerry Hardy makes, not true, that's not part of it, so another insinuation here, about a smear really, against Hardy, that doesn't seem to be brought about, by the facts at least, it doesn't, the facts don't support it necessarily, this incomplete presentation,

01:05:33

Shannon accused Elaine of sinning, by going to the law, another statement made in the article in question,

01:05:40

Bill Shannon, the guy who kind of intook, he was I guess the head of the Sunday school, or the small group or something, that Elaine and the

01:05:50

Grays were part of, but he accused Elaine of sinning, by going to the law, now the insinuation here

01:05:58

I think, and I think, cause what I've seen people do with this, is they're taking it, that Grace Community Church, kind of thinks everything should be handled in house, like the law should never get involved,

01:06:10

I don't know what Shannon said, and what Shannon didn't say, honestly, let's just say he said that, he said that Elaine was sinning by going to the law, okay, let's say that's true, if that's true, it's probably true of a specific case, and it's probably, this particular situation, and it's probably true about what he's talking about, with the initial restraining order, before coming to the elders of the church, they probably thought that, that should be the first thing, is like call the elders of the church, let's go through this together, that's my assumption, that's probably what's going on, but it's hard to tell, but what are you left with, from the just this quote,

01:06:48

I mean, you're just left with the idea, that it's a sin to go to the law, I'm sure I'm telling you, Grace Community Church, the elders don't believe that, there may be,

01:06:56

I'm totally open to the idea, that there may be a tendency, to handle too many things in house, there may be a tendency,

01:07:02

I'm open to that idea, I'm not aware of it perhaps, but I'm open to it, that maybe because of the issues in California, especially with spanking kids, and all that,

01:07:13

I don't know, I don't know what all the reasons would be, but that the church, maybe should exert more authority, than the church really has,

01:07:19

I'm open to that, but it doesn't mean, that they're always against going to the law, or anything like that, and that's what some people are taking from this, yeah, it doesn't say that specifically, but that's what an insinuation can do, insinuation can kind of give you only part of the story, and phrase it in such a way, that you reach the conclusion, they give you an inch, you take a mile, all right, another insinuation, this is kind of an insinuation, that just runs through these articles, that there's cult -like behavior, multiple instances of church members, confronting

01:07:49

Elena MacArthur, repeating the Corinthian warning, concerning communion before discipline, it's just the way that everything's phrased, you have this whole conclusion, that look, this guy is

01:08:00

David Gray, is a terrible guy, he's a pedophile, he's really presenting him, as this horrible, horrible man, this unrepentant guy, that she needs to get away from, it's a war zone at the house, and then these are all the facts, and here's all the court, here's all the facts the court has given, even since then, and here's the conviction and everything, and then going in time, before the conviction, to just show, here's all the people, that followed the example, of their elders, also people who intimately knew

01:08:27

Elaine, I think that's important to know, these are people who intimately knew Elaine, who are coming and confronting her, right,

01:08:32

I think the intention of the article, is that look at kind of this groupthink, that's going on, look at MacArthur, repeating the warning, that Paul gave to the

01:08:41

Corinthian church, about taking communion, before church discipline, well yeah that's the warning, that many pastors give every time, they do communion, not just church discipline times, the article makes it out like this is a, you know it's trying to keep the sheep in line, like warning, you know if you do what

01:08:57

Elaine Gray did, like you could be in trouble, all these people coming forward, are you know henchmen from the elders, henchmen from MacArthur, you know

01:09:06

I'm open to the idea, that there are people who trust the elders, and perhaps maybe uncritically, I'm open to that, totally, but you got to also, just take into account, that these are people who know

01:09:17

Elaine, babysit for Elaine, help Elaine, this is her inner circle, and so they know

01:09:24

Elaine, they know what the elders are saying, and they've made a determination, that Elaine's in the wrong on this, so I think at least you know, take that into account, assumptions, so here's some assumptions, this is, there's a string of these throughout it, this is theological assumptions,

01:09:39

Hardy has an MDiv from the master seminary, but no professional counseling credentials, that's one quote, here's another one, she testified, she was told by the

01:09:47

Grace Community Church leaders, that professional counseling is worldly and wrong, and then the letter from Grace Community Church, also states that it has become obvious, that David is not a mental case, and doesn't need psychological evaluation, he's a sinner who can by God's grace change and grow, now let me explain this to you, there are people in the counseling world, integrationists who take psychology, and biblical counseling in their minds, and they put them together, they say we can take biblical principles, we can take stuff from psychology, and that's what counseling should be, there are others who are, on the biblical counseling bandwagon, and think psychology starts off, with fundamentally wrong assumptions, about the nature of man, and therefore we should reject psychology, and the

01:10:29

Bible is sufficient, for issues pertaining to the soul, Grace Community Church master seminary, is in the biblical counseling vein, not the

01:10:37

Christian counseling world, it's called the biblical counseling world, and because of that, they are suspicious, and that might even be an understatement, of worldly counseling, which would be psychology, they're suspicious of that, and they would not have people there, now there probably are some with some secular,

01:10:58

I think John Street if I'm not mistaken, might have some psychology degrees or something,

01:11:03

I think there might be people there, but it's people who have I think, realize later on in life, hey wait a minute, this isn't the way to go, it's biblical counseling

01:11:11

I should go for, so in their minds the

01:11:17

MDiv, so someone being trained in the Bible, and knowing how to apply the Bible, that would be sufficient, the other thing that is not mentioned here, is

01:11:25

I'm sure Hardy if he's counseling, he probably has some certifications, in biblical counseling, not even mentioned, so there's an assumption, that you must have a professional counseling degree, if you're going to counsel, there's an assumption here, that psychology and professional counseling, outside the church was the right route to take, and something less than that, or at least solving it through the elders, inside the church is wrong, these they did not, they were underwater, they didn't have the tools, they weren't equipped to be able to handle, something like this, that's the assumption, and that's something

01:12:03

I really think, you ought to mark in your minds, that the person or people who wrote this article, that's where they're coming from on this, there is an ax to grind with biblical counseling, there are theological issues at play here, and it's not strictly about what happened, in the sequence of what happened, there is kind of shots being taken at a certain theology, when it comes down to it, so not saying, that some of the things brought up here, aren't worthy of consideration, and perhaps there was problems and mishandling,

01:12:38

I'm just saying that, there is an agenda behind this, it's not just about, let's get the truth out about David Gray, it's there's an assumption that, this was handled wrong, and this is one of the reasons, because they did it through the authority of the elders, that's not their role, it's the role of a secular counselor, or psychologist to approach some of these things, here's some of my reasons for skepticism, about the initial articles, and I'll tell you what

01:13:06

I'm concerned with as well, but I wanna tell you the skepticism first, and then we'll get to some of the reasons, the causes

01:13:13

I have for concern, reasons for skepticism, biased language, I just, church discipline is reduced to shaming, yes,

01:13:20

John MacArthur used the word shame, but it's reduced to just that in the article, that that's a church discipline, and there's really no understanding, of what church discipline is, what it does,

01:13:31

I don't know if the people did understand it who wrote it, like for instance, calls for repentance are referred to as harassment, there's no specifics given on what harassment is, but people going to the house, or calling or writing saying you need to repent, that's harassment apparently, well, that's just normal church discipline procedure, potential evidence of a changed life with David Gray, this is a big thing to me, so David Gray writes this in 2015 from his

01:13:55

Facebook, I want you to know that each day I thank God, for this prison trial, and I totally accept and submit to his will, with no bitterness or complaint, he knows what is best and I am surrendered to him, though he has ordained sorrow, pain and loss,

01:14:08

I have actually grown closer to Jesus Christ in my trials, he may be glorified, I'm happy to report the first publication, of our

01:14:14

Grace Prison Fellowship newsletter, which includes entries from inmates in eight prisons, these men are born again, and are faithful and teaching sound doctrine, on the other inmates in their yard, we are closely connected to Grace Church, in doctrine and purpose, thanks go to Deanna Altman, and all these people from the church, please keep my children in prayer, and also their mom

01:14:35

Elaine, I found that last line especially significant, so this is someone from prison, now you say, oh yeah, people can fool you, yeah, they can, sure they can, what reason though would

01:14:45

David Gray have for that, that's the question I have, what's the church, I mean, they're giving him resources, to help train people in Bible teaching in the prison,

01:14:58

I mean, I don't know what motivates that kind of thing, what motivates this, and then especially also their mom, there's no bitterness, there's no ax to grind in this, that you can see it's just pray for their mom, that's all it is,

01:15:12

I just don't see this, I mean, contrasting with Elaine's testimony, which she gave to court, it's just such a stark contrast, so could very well be, that David Gray did some horrible, horrible things, could very well be, that David Gray has repented though, and there's a changed life, and things like this seem to indicate, that that is the case perhaps, misleading sequencing, that's another reason

01:15:39

I have for skepticism, there's some misleading sequencing, in the article in question about the situation, that just was published, at the time of Elaine's shaming,

01:15:48

Elaine had not yet reported, her husband's physical and mental abuse to police, she was not aware of his sexual abuse, instead she had reported the abuse, to elders and pastors at GCC, yes, that may very well be true, however, she somehow got an order, or a restraining order, a separation order of some kind, so there had to have been some reporting going on, and then like I've said now a few times, there was that time in between, the end of the counseling and the discipline, when she did not report it herself to the police, and so the idea here

01:16:26

I think, is that the pastors at Grace Community Church, should have done this, that this was an unreported thing, but it was reported, it just wasn't reported to the police, and the idea is that, the police should have based on what is known now, been informed, but Elaine didn't even do that, the pastors at Grace Community Church, didn't have the evidence, or at least the, they certainly didn't have the evidence, of the sexual stuff at this time, what would they have reported?

01:16:57

You have a wife coming to you, for counseling, with the assumed intention, of restoring the relationship, there's repentance from the husband, there's safety initially, you have security from the church, you have a court order protecting her, what is there to report to the police?

01:17:16

Right? What is there to report? This is misleading sequencing right here, another thing, supporting a convicted child abuser, and pedophile, this is brought up in the article, that there's some kind of an intention, to continue to support, a convicted child abuser and pedophile, what's that leaving out though?

01:17:44

Well, one, that he's repented, at least in their minds, and you may say he hasn't okay, but in their minds, he's repented.

01:17:53

So, supporting a convicted, but repentant child abuser and pedophile, would at least, put the intentions and motives, of the folks at Grace Community Church, who are praying for David Gray, and supporting him in this, at least put it into greater perspective here.

01:18:10

Okay? The other thing is, they, don't seem to think at least, those who supported him, that he was guilty, of not just all the abuse,

01:18:22

David Gray repented of that, even you have Kerry Hardy saying that, he's repented, he had to repent of something, but the pedophilia, there seems to be, from what

01:18:31

I can tell, and I, that there's some postings online, in the public domain, from people at Grace Community Church, that seem to believe, that the pedophile charge is not legitimate, and I'm gonna get into that in a minute.

01:18:43

So are they knowingly doing this? So if you just put the fact out there, they're supporting a convicted child abuser and pedophile.

01:18:49

Yeah, are they knowingly doing that? Is the guy repentant? These are significant things, that if you wanna represent your, brothers and sisters in Christ accurately, you would put in, but there is no attempt to do that in this, none whatsoever.

01:19:01

Another thing, misleading sequencing, Hardy also claimed in a letter, that David did not admit any guilt, regarding abuse of his children.

01:19:11

Right. And by the way, these two, I have to point out, there was a,

01:19:16

I read a bunch of articles, I listened to YouTube stuff, mostly from the side, that was attacking MacArthur, but there was, one guy,

01:19:23

David Morrill, on Protestia, he published an article, and he pointed out these two things,

01:19:29

I thought it was an astute observation he made. The issue I just mentioned, and then this issue, that he had claimed in a letter, that David did not admit any guilt, regarding abuse of his children.

01:19:41

Yeah, any, in the context though, the, David didn't admit any guilt, concerning the charges, the new charges, that were brought against him, the charges of, of excessive abuse, of pedophilia, right?

01:19:56

He admitted to some things, but he did not admit, and you even see that, in the court testimony, he did not admit to the things, he was actually charged with, that's the issue, but this makes it seem like,

01:20:06

David never abused anyone, and Kerry Hardy just took his side. So, there's misleading sequencing, there's, or I should probably have just put here, missing context, there's missing context, that would have changed this, significantly, if the facts were actually put out there.

01:20:24

All right, leaving out important information, this is the other reason I have for skepticism, Priscilla Bonsegu, and Colleen Golden testified against the wife, those testimonies weren't really considered, in the initial articles, not in any significant sense, and these were people that actually, were in the home, babysitting, that kind of thing, and they testified against the wife, that she was not being factual.

01:20:51

Gray's testimony, that tying a child to a bedpost, was because, they were abusing other children,

01:20:59

David Gray, that both husband and wife, tried to muffle cries of children, during discipline for fear,

01:21:06

California neighbors would report, and treating child like a dog, was a temporary object lesson, now all that stuff sounds terrible,

01:21:12

I just want, and it kind of is, but this is, what I wanted to relay to you, because this is in the article, you're just, he tied kids up, he put up, it was

01:21:25

I guess a pillow, or kept pillowcase over a child, she thought she was gonna suffocate, he treated the child like a dog, and all this, and when you read his testimony, what he says is that, number one, both parents did this, one of the children, they tied to a bedpost, because they were abusing the other children, presumably at night, during the night, the oldest would go, and would

01:21:45

I guess hit, or do abusive things to the younger, so they literally would tie the child to the bedpost, now I don't know what to say,

01:21:54

I don't like that, I think that would, that seems just wrong to me to do, but this is something both of them apparently engaged in, so it wasn't like, oh he just tied them up as prisoners, like there was, it was temporary, and the reason behind it was, cause he's abusing the other kids, that both the husband and wife, tried to muffle the cries of children during discipline, for fear of California neighbors, so the whole idea that, suffocating the children, was because they would,

01:22:23

I guess put the child's face for a moment, when they spanked them in a pillow, or somewhere for it to muffle, whatever the crying of the child, it wasn't smothering apparently, it was kind of muffling, it's kind of weird to me,

01:22:38

I'll be honest with you, doesn't sound right to me, something sounds off, I also understand though, living in a very liberal area, what it's like when you have biblical ideas about discipline, and the people around you, would report you if they heard a child crying, and call

01:22:51

CPS or something, so this is something again though, the wife did too apparently, so this is information that's left out, and so here's the thing, this stuff is bad enough in my mind, but why are you slanting it, why are you leaving some of this out, you're not reporting the other side, and then treating child like a dog, was a temporary object lesson, apparently a kid was acting like a dog, or acting very animalistic, and for just a moment,

01:23:18

David says yeah, basically like I said, this is what, if you wanna be a dog, this is how dogs eat, and then the kid just returned to the table, it was an object lesson for a moment, it wasn't like he forced the kid, to be a dog or you know, so there's conflicting testimony, and the article only takes one side right, it only takes the wife side, and says this is what the wife describes, is what happened, and there's a question about what happened, and the reason

01:23:44

I say there's a question is this, the jury decided based on the testimony, of the mother, children, and one violin student, from like 20 years before previous, that was what was, that's all we have, is just this testimony, there wasn't,

01:24:05

I couldn't find any evidence, any actual evidence, like physical evidence, there was no, and there was conflicting testimony too, for instance, the detective's testimony, on the absence of evidence, among the violin students, and so interviewing other violin students, interviewing people he taught in the public school, there was no evidence of any abuse, so the detective didn't find anything, and then this is really key, and I don't think you're gonna hear this anywhere else,

01:24:30

I think I'm the only one who's talked about this, to my knowledge so far, but if you read, and I have the link here, the testimonies, the court testimonies, there was expert testimony, on evidence of cofabulation, the court blocked from the jury, now what's that?

01:24:44

Well basically, there was, this was actually, so here's the thing, if the people that are promoting this, really value psychology, and not

01:24:52

Christian counseling and stuff, there was a psychologist, who examined the children, the children's testimony, and concluded based on that, that there was something suspicious about it, there was conflicting stories, there were certain things the kids did, that made him believe, or said that made him believe, they're making this up, this isn't actually real, this should not be, we should at least take this with a grain of salt, the evidence the children are presenting, so you have this expert testimony, and guess what?

01:25:23

The court blocked it from the jury, the jury was never able to hear, this expert testimony, about the children, so this is where, this whole question comes in about, did the kids, were these memories that the kids, and they gave very specific details, about things their dad did, that are just shocking, and they're not worth repeating, and they're just, you get angry reading them,

01:25:50

I mean I was just furious, when I was reading this, I'm like I can't believe this guy, he should be locked up forever, that natural feeling of justice, we have wells up within you, but you gotta read everything, you gotta keep a sound mind, be objective, read all the evidence, read or whatever we have, it's really just testimony, it's a he said she said, and what you end up having, is a situation where, one party saying one thing, another party saying another thing, there's conflicting evidence, the husband says one thing, the wife says another thing, and apparently, now this

01:26:26

I found out this morning, from someone else, I'm trying to even remember, where I heard this, that the public defender he had, wasn't that great, so I don't even know,

01:26:35

I don't know anything about that really, but if one has a better lawyer, in a situation you know, that does give an advantage, possibly the wife did, and you have some, this is public now online, someone from Grace Community Church, Fred Butler had posted on his

01:26:54

Twitter account, that it wasn't until, the children started seeing a psychologist, or a some kind of a secular counselor, that they were that they mind force, or somehow came up with these, quote unquote repressed memories, so that is just a statement out there,

01:27:17

I have no evidence of it, I have no clue, is it worth you talking about John, well half of this stuff, is just statements that are made,

01:27:24

I don't have, and that's where the limitation comes in, I don't know, is that possible,

01:27:30

I suppose that's possible, I know of people by the way, in my own life, who have had this happen,

01:27:37

I know of people myself, who have they never thought, that they had any experience of abuse, and I know the whole theory, that you need to block it out, and some people can block out memories, that are traumatizing

01:27:49

I guess, but that's the idea, and that through certain psychological methods, you can bring about, you can get these memories, to come up again, and these repressed memories get exposed, and you can then deal with them, and right is very

01:28:03

Freudian, the thing is, I know of people, that all of a sudden decided,

01:28:11

I have a repressed memory, I'm abused, and there was no evidence of it, there was no indication, in fact their behavior, doesn't seem to indicate that, and that's one of the things, that I know in David Morrell's article on this, he tried to point out, is that the kids during this time, were meeting with the father, and I guess it was observed by, at least the people at Grace Community Church, according to the testimony of the counselor, that they were fine with their dad, there didn't seem to be any problems, they were excited to see him, there was no issue there, right, not generally how kids behave, who have been abused in that way, right, and so I know people in my own life, who also, like a true abuse victim, generally,

01:28:56

I'm not saying in every circumstance, but generally, they don't wanna talk about it, they're very, that's not something they wanna relive, and they're going to be very gun shy, of going around a person like that, they're very timid, they're not usually out there crusading, and that kind of stuff,

01:29:18

I know there's exceptions, but these are just general observations, right, but I know people who want to, they just take such pride and identity, in being a victim, and people that we're pretty sure, weren't abused, and again,

01:29:36

I don't know what I don't know, but I know that this does happen, there are people that just seem like, they don't have those set of experiences, until there's an advantage to it, and then all of a sudden, they have a victim thing going on, but it never was part of who they were before, and they don't act like, usually how victims act, and I have known victims, and victims, like I said, they're generally, they're not out there being the crusaders, they're generally not, you know, some are, some are, but they don't, they don't tend to act the way, that kids like this would act, where they're around their dad, and they're fine with being around their dad, even though he did some horrible things to them, right, so, and the reason

01:30:24

I say that, is because these accusations, had to have been previous to the counseling, right, when he was in the home, that's when these, incidences of sexual abuse took place, but then you have this interim, you have a year or so, where the dad is seeing the kids, he's not in the home, he's being supervised, and they're fine with him, that's weird, okay, that's all

01:30:43

I'm saying, now I'm not saying he didn't do it, he may have, I don't know, but it wouldn't fit, that kind of a story, so,

01:30:50

I think that, based on the evidence that we have, it's hard for me to figure out, how the jury reached this particular verdict, or if they were just swayed, because they had to have just been swayed, by the testimony of the mom and the kids, and then that one individual from 20 years ago, who apparently made her accusation, after hearing about the situation with the kids, so, it's, for a guy who teaches music lessons, privately for decades, and who had been in the public school system, you'd think the detective would find a lot more, evidence of this, and maybe even physical evidence, possibly, but, there just, there wasn't really anything, so, it, in my mind,

01:31:36

I have to just say, I don't know, that's what I have to, I have to be humble about it, and just say, I don't know, but, any of this analysis, that I've just given to you, were you given that, from the article in question, any of the complexity of this, any of the possibilities, no, the possibility, the repentance, the possibility that this guy's changed, no, the possibility that, he was wrongly convicted, as many at Grace Community Church seem to believe, nope, you're not even gonna be presented that evidence, how many of you knew the expert testimony, on the evidence of, confabulation, was blocked from the jury, how many of you knew that, you had to read through the document, it's linked, in the article in question, but how many of you actually went and read it, see this is one of the problems, in my mind, that, a paradigm is not being constructed, for all the available information, it's just some, there's sides that are being taken here, there's decisions that are being made, there's bias language, there's, theological, acts to grind with Christian counseling somehow, and there's misleading sequencing, missing context, these are reasons

01:32:46

I have for being skeptical, about the initial article, in some ways it's masterfully done, it really tugs on your emotions and your heart strings, you have to be very careful, when you're reading stuff like this to, read slowly, digest it, look at the primary sources, just keep an objective head, and I think if you do that, you come to the conclusion, this is a horrible situation, that stinks, and, if this man is guilty of these crimes, as any is serving time for this, what a horrible thing, you know

01:33:16

I, in the state of California, I mean, and the whole religion angle here, I mean I don't even know, it's just, it's dismal in my mind, if he's innocent, like I don't know, the, very well could possibly be,

01:33:30

I have no evidence of this, but maybe there's people, that have that anti -religion ax to grind, and there's many of them, in the legal system in California, there's so many possibilities here, but the bottom line is,

01:33:44

I don't know, I don't know, I wasn't close to the situation, all I have, and all we have, are publicly available documents, from mostly 20 years ago, 20 years ago, something that was known, something that is now just being rehashed, and being used, to smear

01:34:00

John MacArthur, really to smear him, for being, in favor of, a guy who is a convicted pedophile, knowingly in favor, of this guy, that's the insinuation, that's what people are walking away with, that's what people think, that's what they're concluding, it's just that John MacArthur supported a pedophile, yeah, but there's no, that's, that is a bridge too far, that is not a conclusion one can draw, if anything

01:34:26

MacArthur, who had apparently according to the article, no contact, with Elaine, prior to this situation, he happened to be the guy preaching that night, and that's when the discipline was announced, now,

01:34:39

I do have some comments on this, the comment though, has to start here, is that MacArthur would not have known this, at the time he made those statements, now the thing, now the other thing people want to do, is pressure

01:34:51

MacArthur into, you need to make a statement and apologize now, for what happened 20 years ago, knowing what we know now, well they didn't know, what's known now, and even what's known now, doesn't seem to be actually known, if the people at the church disagree with the verdict, they may, there may be a, they may not think, that that information is actually known, or they may think this guy's repented, so, so that's the first part of it,

01:35:16

I'm gonna get to, the concerns I have after this, I'm saving those for the end, about Grace Community Church a little bit,

01:35:23

I know some people, give me maybe a little flack for that, but, I think every church, including the one

01:35:29

I'm a part of now could, just like people, churches have blind spots, they have, they have issues, they have, there's always room for improvement okay, so no church is perfect, let me read for you though, an email, this is, not posted publicly online, but this is an email, that multiple people from my understanding, have been sent from the elders of Grace Community Church, and, and I contacted, someone from the church, just seeing if they had any information on this, and this is what

01:35:58

I was sent, all right, this is all I have to give to you, the elders of Grace Community Church, are not likely to issue a public statement, on David Gray case, here's why, objective viewers who examine the facts on record, without prejudice, should be able to see, that this case is complex, yeah

01:36:15

I agree with that, and there's more to the story, of this couple's marital strife, and their interaction with counselors, and the evidence contained in public court records, the main exculpatory facts in this case, pertain to things that were said, in the privacy of a confidential pastoral counseling, in sessions,

01:36:31

Mrs. Gray herself requested, when she was saying she wanted to seek reconciliation, with her husband, now this is significant here, what the church is saying, is that there are exculpatory facts, there are things, that would indicate, that David Gray is not guilty, of some of these charges, that are being leveled, but they were said in the confidential, boundaries of a pastoral counseling session, now think with me for a moment about this, if Gray's Community Church came forward, with the private pastoral counseling, recordings or notes or information, what would that do to their counseling ministry?

01:37:09

People wouldn't trust it, they would sink their counseling ministry, why would anyone wanna go to a counselor, who could just post on the internet, what happened?

01:37:17

Is there any safety in that? That's part of the problem with all this, and I've been one of the ones saying, at least privately to people, like I wish, if there's evidence that we don't know about,

01:37:27

I wish they would just put it out there, well this is why they're not, and it's a catch 22,

01:37:33

I understand it, in fact the recordings apparently, were for Mrs. Gray herself, she wanted, she requested recordings, of the session she was part of, so she could listen to them over, okay now they're being weaponized, and used, and who knows if we even have a clear record, of all those sessions,

01:37:53

I mean there were sessions with the husband, that she wasn't probably part of, and didn't have a recording for, so there's an incomplete picture even with that, and Grace Community Church doesn't wanna release, confidential,

01:38:05

I mean it could even be, the impressions that the counselor received, things that were specific to Mr.

01:38:13

Gray, that the world doesn't need to know, I mean this is a hard situation, in other words, and we live in a day,

01:38:23

I should just say, we live in a day, where attorney client privilege, should not be respected, privilege in counseling, should not be respected, there should be, everything should just be out in the open, every private thought, should be submitted to the totalitarians, so that they can police us, and I think one day, it's probably possible, all the things you've said on social media, at least the non encrypted stuff, maybe even in the encrypted stuff, will be released, just be prepared for that, all the jokes that you made, all the politically incorrect things you said, all the things that needed context,

01:38:55

I mean how would that go for you, but I'm seeing that tendency more and more and more, some things though are better left private, in other words, recently published stories about the case, are missing vital details, in almost every counseling or discipline case, statements are made and issues arise, that cannot and should not be made public, counselors promise confidentiality, having made that promise, the elders of grace church intend to honor it, even if it is to their own hurt,

01:39:19

Psalm 15, they are not going to breach the bounds of propriety, or fuel the tabloid appeal of this story, by feeding details from private counseling sessions, into the press or social media, and I totally get that, it is also the elders position, that noisy angry sideline critics, who have already judged the matter, do not need to be answered, the chief gossip mongers, who are fueling this story, have already violated every biblical principle, that governs how matters like this, should be dealt with, a case such as this, cannot be fairly re -litigated, 20 years after the fact, especially on social media, or other online forums, given the way all the recent narratives, have been slanted, and the timelines deliberately compacted, it is clear that those, most aggressively pushing the story, are not genuinely interested in truth anyway, those who personally know, and trust the leaders at grace community church, do stand with John MacArthur and the elders, our encouragement for people on all sides, is to pray for everyone involved in this case, pray that the word of the

01:40:09

Lord, will continue to spread, and pray that Christ will be glorified, now, let me give you some of the critical things, if there are critical things

01:40:18

I have to say, about this, one of the things

01:40:24

I initially thought, having just skimmed the article, when I was just seeing the headline, looking at a few things, one of the first things

01:40:30

I thought was, grace community church is a big church, 8 ,000 people, you may have 50 to 100 ,000 people, who knows over the last 20 years, that have cycled through there, you have a staff of pastors, and elders, and just staffers, it's an industry, it's a city, it's like,

01:40:56

Liberty University, I mean, that's bigger, but it's, I was part of that institution for longer, and knew people at higher levels, and it's a machine, you don't know what the, the right hand does not know, what the left hand is doing all the time, and so there's a human scale element to this, where you have a

01:41:17

John MacArthur is one man, there's no way he's aware of everything, that's happening underneath him, he's getting briefed on some of this stuff, but there's no way, he can't, it's impossible, and private counseling sessions, that individuals are having, you hope the guy is vetted, you hope that there's, you know, he made his way up the ranks of the church, so to speak, and that he wasn't deceiving anyone, but honestly, once you get to that size, it becomes a bureaucracy, it's very hard, in my opinion, to keep something like that, from becoming a bureaucracy, you have to be intentional about it, you have to just have all kinds of rules, and guidelines on nepotism, and all kinds of other things, and I'm sure those things probably go on, in a place like Grace Community Church, Master Seminary, all of that, that's not a smear, against Grace Community Church, I'm just saying, that's a design issue, now the question is, is that a design flaw, is something like that, something that can lead, to a situation like this, and perhaps other situations, that have yet to be brought up, and the answer in my mind is possibly, and that's something, and this is my own conviction, that I've been coming to, and just hear me out on this, and I'm sure there's plenty of rebuttals, and you're welcome to put a rebuttal, is a secondary issue, but here's my, here's the thing that I think, here's the danger

01:42:43

I see, shepherds ought to know their sheep, and it's my, it's been growing in me, that I do have somewhat of a conviction, that if you're a pastor in a church, you ought to know the sheep there, in that particular church, which means you're involved in their lives, in some way, it is very hard to get to know your pastor, when there's 8 ,000 other people, trying to get to know your pastor, and the security details, escorts them out right away, and you have another pastor, that's serves as your actual pastor, for discipleship or other spiritual growth activities, but you're preaching pastor, is a guy you'll never know, you'll never get to know,

01:43:34

I'm not building a church on this, I'm not forming a hard fast theology on this, but I have seen in the past, these kinds of problems emerge, at big churches, and oftentimes,

01:43:47

I think it would have gone better, if the human scale was different, if that person was known intimately, or at least somewhat, with the people in that church, and known by all the elders of the church, in general, not just getting a briefing about someone you don't know, but you actually know these people,

01:44:06

I think stuff like this, if let's say this article in question, that's attacking

01:44:11

MacArthur for David Gray's behavior, let's say that article is all off, I think you'd know it pretty quick, if it was a smaller church, even with this whole confidentiality of counseling, now, because people would have been like, yeah,

01:44:26

I was there, I know the details, it would have been more, it would have been more just known by everyone, it wouldn't have just been a top down thing, it would have been, people just would have been more intimately involved, in the situation, including,

01:44:39

I think, the pastor, the head pastor, the preaching pastor, he wouldn't have gone up there, to deliver church discipline, to someone that they didn't even know, that he didn't know too well, and the church discipline, it should be noted here, is for failure to repent really, it's not because, the discipline isn't, for abusing children, or anything like that, it's,

01:45:04

David Gray did some bad things, he admitted those things, but he was willing to repent, that's the difference, that's why the discipline took place,

01:45:11

I get why they did the discipline, but it's hard to discipline someone that you don't know, you're not just intimately aware of the situation, so that's just, that's

01:45:20

John Harris's take here, and I've been more convinced over time, that if I were to be a senior pastor,

01:45:25

I would probably, at a church, or just a preaching pastor, or anything, setting the direction of a church, it wouldn't, if it got to,

01:45:33

I don't even know the scale, I would say at least 300 people, once it gets bigger than that, this is just my thinking, it's like, it's really hard as a pastor to know everyone, it's just how, you only have a certain amount of limited time, doesn't mean the pastor, is counseling every single person the same, there are other elders, and I get that, and I've heard some of the arguments made against this, in fact,

01:45:55

I'm grateful for big churches in one sense, like John MacArthur was able to fight, on religious liberty grounds, the issue, the

01:46:02

COVID stuff, if he wasn't, if that was a small church, they wouldn't have been able to do that, so I totally see advantages, but I think herein lies one of the disadvantages to that, so that's one of them, if there is a critique that I have to make about this, because I don't know the intimate details of this situation, and all

01:46:24

I have is what's been presented, it's very hard for me to critique other things in my mind, or other things that stand out to me as potential flaws,

01:46:33

I will say this as a general opinion that I have, but there are counselors, and I'm not saying that the counselors involved in this situation are described by this, but there are counselors in the biblical counseling world,

01:46:51

I think, who do perhaps think that biblical counseling is the key to solving everything, and who do try to handle too many things in house, that should be reported, that may have happened here,

01:47:07

I don't know, but I do know that mindset does exist, in the integrated counseling world, there's other mindsets that are very frustrating, and wrong, and that kind of thing,

01:47:20

I'm just saying, we all have, I have my own tendencies, I have my own sinful tendencies, all right, that though is a tendency that I have suspected, does, some people do have, not trying to say, don't do biblical counseling at all, just saying, be aware of that, you may want to report some things, even if it's already been reported to a court, seems like in my mind, it would have been wise perhaps, and again,

01:47:45

I don't know all the information, maybe I'm wrong, but given what I know, I would think that it would have been good, to report some of this stuff, at least get a police report on it, so that's number two on that.

01:48:00

Number three in my mind, and these aren't, you can tell I'm trying to qualify everything, because I don't want to berate

01:48:08

Grace Community Church, or any of them more than they've already been berated, for things that in my mind, you just can't prove really, but it would be nice at some point if, even if it wasn't officially the elders, because I understand why they're not making a statement, about it because of the confidentiality, and they don't want to reveal certain things,

01:48:27

I get that, it would be nice though, if instead of just by email, a public statement was made, even if it was the statement

01:48:35

I just read for you, I think it would also be nice, if people from the church who are closer to the situation, maybe stepped out and gave a perspective, that could shed some light on it, perhaps not elders, but just people and I'm not saying break the counseling, you know the confidentiality there, but if there are people from the church, who do have an insight into this, it probably would be good to, because the attacks are so public, they're going so widespread, and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of pushback, you have really

01:49:14

David Morrill, you have David Morrill, you have I think the Bible thumping wingnut program, did something on this, you don't really have people pointing out some of the things, that I'm pointing out in this podcast, it's mainly just a jumping on the bandwagon, and honestly some of them have been so, so ridiculous,

01:49:31

I'm just like podcasts, where guys are like just reading the wife's testimony, or evidence, which is just testimony, that's what the evidence is, just reading that, and just basically buying it all hook, line and sinker, and this is what this horrible guy did, and just jumping up and down, getting angry, screaming at anyone who would go against the narrative, or really even just question the narrative, so that's a lot of what

01:50:06

I've been seeing out there, is just a repetition of the wife's accusations, as evidence, with not even looking at what the husband has said, or what

01:50:19

Kerry Hardy has said, or even I mean I just think it's so significant in my mind, the evidence of confabulation, or at least the text for testimony, on evidence of confabulation, was blocked from the jury, to me when

01:50:32

I found that out, I was like that's kind of significant, like why isn't that part of the article?

01:50:41

So there's too many things, that don't add up in this situation to me, to buy the prevailing narrative, and I don't think any of us, should buy the prevailing narrative,

01:50:49

I think what we ought to do, if we're not on Team Grace Community Church, if there's a team there, if we're not on team quote -unquote discernment bloggers, which by the way,

01:50:59

I thought those were the bad guys, all of a sudden all the Big Eva guys, love discernment bloggers, because this particular one, is going after MacArthur and others, but if we don't want to be on those two teams, we just want to be on the truth,

01:51:13

I just want the truth, then I think a healthy humility is going to say, I don't know the full truth, some things don't seem to add up here, but I don't know what all the truth is,

01:51:22

I'm glad that it appears that David Gray, at the very least has repented, that at least it appears that way, don't even know perhaps about that, not intimately connected with it, at the very least though, we can say

01:51:34

John MacArthur, was not knowingly supporting an unrepentant pedophile, that's just not the case, not true, that wouldn't be reflective, of the policies at Grace Community Church, and that much

01:51:51

I think we can safely say, and I'm going to just leave it to time, to deal with the rest of it, people are going to settle on one side or the other, it's okay if you don't want to really settle on a side, or if you just want to be skeptical about it, because there's plenty of evidence, that would lead you in that direction, so that's all

01:52:09

I got to say about this, I hope that was helpful, it's a mega edition, I've spent hours last night,

01:52:17

I probably spent like five hours, just reading everything, and then this morning, trying to look at last minute details, and this is just where I'm coming down on it, and I hope it helps those out there, who are trying to figure this out,

01:52:29

I know even in my audience, it seems like there's a big split on this, and please take my advice, please take my advice, and just read all the documents, go to the info section,

01:52:39

I'll have links, just read the primary sources, and it would be much better, to try to create a paradigm out of those, than try to just follow the blogging question, that is putting a spin on it, all right,