Open Phones and Pravda Seminary Report

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good morning, welcome to The Dividing Line on a Tuesday morning, regular schedule this week.

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Lord willing, we'll be rushing back in time to do The Dividing Line on Thursday as well.

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And it is the week before Thanksgiving week and we have much to be giving thanks for.

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It is a wonderful time of the year. It is sad to note with some, well, regularity, we see this every year, but it's gotten worse and worse as far as I can tell.

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So, the fact that this particular holiday, and I'm noticing that my, does this look different?

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It sort of looks like the, couldn't be different, I guess it's always been like that, but isn't it weird how you can stare at one thing for many, many years and all of a sudden you look and it goes, hey, listen, play with my microphone.

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It just looked weird there for a second, like the wire was going odd directions. Anyway, it's sad to note with regularity each year the fact that Thanksgiving is such a specifically and uniquely

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Christian celebration that it becomes less and less relevant in a secular society.

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I mean, let's face it. We live in a very worldly, very secular society.

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I was listening to Al Mohler this morning, and by the way, 877 -753 -3341 is a phone number if you'd like to join us, 877 -753 -3341, listening to the smartest living

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Southern Baptist, Al Mohler, as I do pretty much every morning, or if I get behind, then I queue him all up and I catch up on him, but yes, and dividing .line

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via Skype, and queue up all the briefings, about 13 to 16 minutes worth of great insights from Al Mohler, president of the

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Southern Baptist Seminary. The emphasis, unless you want to get dirty looks from staff members or graduates or students, it is the

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Southern Baptist Seminary. It's not just one of the Southern Baptist Seminaries, no, no, no, no.

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The definite article must be emphasized and probably put in bold.

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That's always wise. Oh, like Ohio State? It's not, it's the Ohio State or something like, oh, it's the, okay.

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The Ohio State Buckeyes. You've never? I don't know. You've never seen those guys introduce themselves,

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I'm, you know, Fred Flintstone from the Ohio State. That's true. Some of them get real fancy and they just go, the.

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Oh, okay. News to me. You're supposed to know. I'm sorry. I didn't. I did not know that. Do some of them play in the former

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National Basketball Association, which no longer exists? Remember that sport? We've already forgotten about it.

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It's like, hey, okay. Y 'all don't want to play? It's all right with us. Don't worry about it. I think they're the first one percenters to fall.

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That's right. They are now in the 99 with all the rest of us. That's true. Anyway, I have no idea how

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I got there. I'm trying to comment on the fact that in a secular society. The term

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Thanksgiving is irrelevant, isn't it? I mean, let's just, let's ask those questions. The people doing the occupy, whatever, occupy

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Podunk, Idaho, occupy, whatever stuff. Where does Thanksgiving fit in their mindset, in their worldview?

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I mean, there's no place for it. So it's one of my favorite times of the year. This whole season is my favorite time of the year.

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But I was listening to Al Mohler talking about the fact that according to one of the studies he read, 40 % of Americans now live in a place where gay marriage is a possibility.

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And it just makes you go, wow, that happened so fast. And what caused it?

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When you actually sit down and talk with folks, it's not because of some overwhelming, brilliant argumentation.

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It is simply due to a collapse in morality and a self -conscious worldview.

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It's just, it's, it really makes you go, man, what is going on with Western society?

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Is God just removing his hand of blessing and restraint? And we're seeing, we're seeing the results.

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I think that is what we are, what we are seeing. 877 -753 -3341,

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I saw a tweet over the weekend, which I found quite interesting.

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Actually this was 14 November. So that was, that was actually only yesterday, wasn't it?

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I guess it wasn't a weekend. Well, it was close enough for the weekend. It's closer to the weekend than other days are.

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And it said, James, the Albuquerque Veritas Seminar, Kanner spoke out of scheduled time to throw off protest, question mark, question mark.

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Lots of police, lots of security. Police stood at front on either side of stage while Kanner spoke, did not stay long, seemed nervous.

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Now the possibility exists, I suppose, that there was a meaningful reason for this, in the sense that maybe they had credible information of something.

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That, you know, that that possibility exists. But remember, this is, this is a man who has, this is, this is the cry, cry wolf syndrome fully brought to fruition in the sense that this is the guy who is also running around the

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United States saying, well, I have 11 fatwas for my death and, and we have to regularly move to throw off, throw them off the trail.

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And we, we don't let people know where I'm going because this, that, and the other thing. And at the same time, you know, we've never found any of these fatwas.

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And at the same time, once you start piling up all the lies, you know, where were you born again,

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Eragon? And where and when did you come here again, Eragon? And did your dad bring his multiple wives with him, Eragon? And you just see all these lies.

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There's no reason to believe the man, none, he, until he's willing to admit these things.

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There's just no reason to believe him. All right. You've got the microphone over in front of your mouth. Maybe a six foot, eight inch, 270 pound man walking down the middle of the aisle, screaming at the top of his lungs, rattled his cage a little bit, eh?

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I don't know. He sounded pretty cool there in, uh, you know, at Calvary Chapel, but, uh, you know,

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I, my gut feeling is that that's exactly what this was all about.

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And, uh, they, they're, you know, the, the wicked flea when no one pursues is the, is the term and the phrase in the book of Proverbs and they're probably thinking, oh, this is, this is the beginning of a, of a bunch of people that are trying to, and there's, there's no organization trying to do so.

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We have encouraged folks to ask the question, what is Hadith 2425? Because he can't answer that.

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He knows that he is well aware of that as is Norman Geisner. You think they'll, you think they'll deal with that?

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What to me is so amazing is that these are, these are apologists. These are discernment men.

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And yet they know that they've been caught red handed and they cannot answer the question because of the fact that what they've said is dishonest, it's untrue and indefensible.

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So how do they, how do they deal with it? Uh, cops, cops around the stage.

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And, uh, isn't that, isn't that exactly how a lot of these discernment people, they, isn't that exactly what they criticize people like Benny Hinn for and stuff like that?

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You know, they use their security people to hide behind that instead of answering questions. And now they're doing the same thing.

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Isn't that weird? That's pretty weird. But, um, I would be interested in, uh, in hearing some more about this.

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If you were at the Albuquerque Veritas, or as we like to say, Pravda, uh, seminary, um, conference,

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I think it's the, I think they just need to change their name to Pravda. Means the same thing. It just has a little more of a meaningful, meaningful background to it.

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Uh, because we know how truth can be redefined by certain people in certain contexts.

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So, um, you know, maybe we'll do that. But, uh, anyways, um, I'd love to, if you were at that,

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I would love to hear, uh, your experience at the Pravda Seminary, um, apologetics and excuse making conference.

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Uh, you know, the sad thing is I'm sure many good things were said there. I'm sure many good things were said there.

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That's the whole point of this whole thing. The thing that really, really, really, really bugs me about, about Ergen Kanner and Ymir Kanner, who is just as silent and hence complicit as his brother, uh, is they will say true things and Muslims will hear that.

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And they'll go, oh, oh, you believe in the deity of Christ. You also seem to believe in telling lies about your past and exaggerating things, especially if it makes my religion look bad.

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Oh, I see them all connected together. Hmm. Yeah. Okay. There you go. So, uh,

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I found that interesting. Also, as the, as the phones, uh, line up here, we do have some callers online already.

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Uh, an email came through and by the way, can I, let, let me, let me clear a few things up here just right away.

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Okay. Let's, let's clear the deck and let me clear a few things up here. Please do not attempt to contact me through the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church website. Okay. That's not the way to get ahold of me. If you want to make sure that a message is going to fall into oblivion and, um, yeah, sometimes they're passed on to me, but that's just not the way this one was passed on to me.

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That way I'm going to respond to it. But there is a contact page at AOMN .org

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for a reason. Okay. So please don't try to do end runs and stuff like that.

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Yes, sir. While you're on this, I would like to point out to folks that if you think that you come to AOMN .org

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and you won't get read, I read everything that comes through that website.

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Now, not everything gets passed on to you. In fact, a pretty small percentage, but that's my job.

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And when you write to us, it needs to be short. It needs to be succinct and it needs to get my attention.

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Yeah. If you don't get my attention with your note, it's going to, it's not going to get to you and it's going to just fall into the ether.

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Uh, so make it count as they say. Yes. And, uh, but I, I read everything that comes through that website.

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So just saying. Yeah, that's, uh, that's, yeah. And I just,

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I just don't want to see the folks at church having to, uh, you know, be passing stuff onto me about, you know, could you ask

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James White, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's just not the way to, not the way to get hold of me at all.

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So please, please don't, don't go that direction. Uh, anyway, um, oh great.

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I couldn't open that. Yeah, I've got a, I wonder why I can't open that. No, I'll find it eventually.

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Um, here's the question. Uh, I was just in a chat room where the Muslim host was attacking the

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Christians about texts in the Bible that were added, like Mark 16 at the end and John chapter eight, verses one through 11, actually it's

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John 7, 53 through 11. Uh, he was pointing out that since those verses were added Christians and I have a pure version of the

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Bible, as you know, they say our Bibles are corrupted. I need access to a sermon or lecture or debate that you have done on how to answer such things.

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Thank you. Well, of course we have addressed that subject, um, dozens and dozens of times.

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We have a YouTube channel for that reason. And, um, uh, Dividing Line has addressed that subject many, many times, but it is always good.

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We have new listeners, uh, to address these things. So before we talk to Rick and to Brandon, who both have very interesting questions, um, which will be very interesting, um, which is why they're interesting questions.

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It's good to address, address this subject. Yeah, it's very interesting. Uh, I'm very interested in saying interesting.

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Um, the two texts that are cited are the two largest textual variants in the

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New Testament. There is nothing else that comes close to them in size. They're both 12 verses. Um, they have very, very different textual histories, however.

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And what I mean by that is the, the manuscript evidence, uh, for the longer ending of Mark is significantly better than that for what's called the

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Pricope Adulteria, the story of the adulterous woman in John 7, 53 through 8, 11. Uh, the witness for the longer ending of Mark is extensive and early.

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Um, there are only a small number of manuscripts that do not contain the longer ending of Mark.

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Whereas the first manuscript chronologically, the earliest manuscript we have that contains the long ending,

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I'm sorry, the, the, uh, Pricope Adulteria in John 7, 53 through 8, 11 is

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Codex, Codex Bese Canterburgiensis, which is basically fifth century.

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And so you've got almost a full 500 years of manuscript evidence from all the different families,

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Byzantine, Alexandrian, et cetera, Western, that do not contain, uh, the

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Pricope Adulteria. And when Codex Bese Canterburgiensis or Codex D as it is known is your first witness, in my opinion, that is about 14 strikes against you right off the bat.

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Um, Codex, even, even Theodore Beza, for whom the manuscript is named, when he donated the manuscript, he said it would be better for storage than for study.

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Because he recognized that this was not, this was not a scribe attempting to copy the

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New Testament. This was, this was Kenneth Taylor's great, great, great, great grandfather.

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Okay. All right. We needed to throw more greats in there, I suppose. Um, but it is, it is more of a commentary.

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It's, it's a, it's a paraphrase. It's a living Bible. It's a message version.

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And so, you know, like in the book of Acts, as I recall, uh, when, when

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Peter is freed by the angel from prison, uh, for some reason, the author thought it would be good to tell us exactly how many steps he descended to get to the street.

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Remember he went out to the street. Ah, but Codex tells us how many steps he went down to get to the street. Great to have that information.

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Not really any particular, um, you know, reason to think that's original. Uh, but D just, it's not an attempt to copy the

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New Testament. It's attempt to comment, comment on the New Testament. There's another reason why scholars are very certain.

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And I get this question all the time, people in seminars, and I'll be speaking, by the way, this weekend,

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Tucson at, uh, I believe it's faith community church. Somebody needs to check that for me.

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I didn't actually, I didn't put on the blog. I'm sorry. I'm pretty sure it's faith community church. I know it's on orange something.

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I was just looking at the map yesterday and I don't have any of this stuff in front of me, so I shouldn't, I shouldn't even talk about things. I don't have it right in front of me.

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Um, yeah, but Micah would really like their website though, because, uh, they, uh,

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I think it's orange Grove or something like that. Um, right on the front page, they've got a really cool graphic of yours.

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Truly. I ruined the graphic because, you know, I fell out of the ugly tree face first, but, uh, that's what it was with faith community.

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Okay. Six 30 on Saturday. And then both services Sunday morning, eight 30 and 10 30, I think is, uh, is the times down there in Tucson, if I recall correctly.

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Anyways, I've, I've got basically one hour to do my new Testament presentation. I'm going to have to redo the entire presentation and create a new streamlined version.

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That's one of the things I'll be working on up in flag stuff. And I'm probably stick it on my iPad, uh, and, and do it that way.

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Well, actually I can't because the connections in the back. So scratch that anyways. Uh, I'll be talking about the new

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Testament stuff. And one of the questions I get asked all the time, and it's a good question, a really good question is if you were preaching through John, uh, which would be very enjoyable to do.

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And maybe after I finished Hebrews, that's what I'll do. Yeah. Eight 30 and 10 30 on Sunday. Yeah. Um, and six 30 Saturday night, which is going to be a real trick because that is the night of El Toro to Tucson.

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So I've already told them that, uh, they might need to have a stool for me to sort of sit back on, uh, less something cramp halfway through.

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And this is codex. I can see that happening.

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Uh, yeah, sorry. It was 109 miles. We're a little rough, you know? Um, but yeah, yes, yes, exactly.

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Right. Uh, hold on just a second. You're got a stretched leg. Sorry. Uh, cramp. Uh, it could happen and it would be fun to have it on tape.

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It would be, I'd be a great YouTube sensation. I can guarantee that. But, uh, Oh, can you imagine the

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King James? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, if, if, if Sam Gipps still running around saying Don Wilkins got his, uh, his voice taken away, then, uh, say he was about to say something about an

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Alexandrian manuscript and God struck him with a cramp. No, I just wrote 109 miles as fast as my little legs would take me actually.

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So yeah, it is the last nine miles. It is, it is rough. Yeah. It's Micah and channel. And, uh, oh yeah.

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See, Micah said it was pretty. So he was impressed. I knew he'd be impressed. I told him about that last night, but he actually wasn't in channel when

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I told him, so he's really not responsible for it. But anyhow, I am really wandering today. Yeah. It's your fault.

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You're in there. You keep pulling the, you keep pulling the microphone over and doing the, you know, little thing.

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It's, it's sort of like, you know, Rick Perry and, and Romney, you know, how am I supposed to answer a question like that?

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When Mitt Romney is staring at me and he's a good looking man. You remember that one this week? That's, that's how you, that's how you get around everything.

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Oh, you know, 10 years from now, no one's got a clue what in the world we're talking about there, but, uh, unless one of them ends up being elected, but, uh, be it as it may.

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Um, the question I'm asked is if I was preaching through John, would I preach John 7, 53 through 8, 11, as if it were scripture.

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Now, if I was preaching through John, I would certainly have some point, uh, where I would discuss what

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I'm about to discuss that is the textual evidence, but I would not preach this as canonical scripture because I do not believe it's original.

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And it, and it's not just the fact that we have all these earlier manuscripts that do not contain it for John 7, 53 through 8, 11.

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The real, for me, absolute evidence that it is not original is that in family one, this is a group of manuscripts, family one, it is found at Luke 21, 25.

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And I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to take that back. Um, it is found in different places in the gospel of John.

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And as I'm looking at here, it looks like in family one, it is found after John 21, 25.

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And in family 13, it's found in Luke after Luke 21, 38, and in manuscript 13, 33, after Luke 24, 53.

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So in other words, it moves around. It's found different places in John's gospel, and it's found different places in Luke's gospel.

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And when you have a story that is basically homeless, wandering about looking for a place, uh, to, you know, to land, that is to me the clearest evidence of the non -originality of that particular text.

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Now, when you go to Mark 16, 9 through 20, it, that isn't the case, but I still don't believe it's original.

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And why did I believe it's original? Because the manuscript tradition shows us other endings for Mark.

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And I have, I remain convinced despite all the, I mean, there's just, there's just one guy on the, on the textual criticism list.

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I mean, talk about a one string banjo. This is his thing. There's, I know, I know, I know this one guy, all he ever talks about is

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Kami Ohanian, not on the textual criticism list. This is another guy. I mean, this guy has wrapped his life up.

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You know who I'm talking about in 1 John 5, 7. That's just, that's it. It's like, wow, dude, get a life.

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You know, there's, there's more to life than one particular verse, but there's this guy on the textual criticism list and, and 85 % of his posts are all on the long ending of Mark and the originality of it and so on and so forth.

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And he's a bright guy. There's no, no toys about it. But the argument that has swayed me and continues to sway me to this day is if that was original, there is no reason why the other endings would come into existence.

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If that was already, if that was there from the start, there would have been any reason for these other endings to come into existence, but they did come into existence.

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They're there. And that to me is sufficient, uh, evidence to recognize that that longer ending is just that it's a later edition and early, much earlier, later edition than the

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Percuvian adultery, but still an earlier edition. Now, having said all of that, all that information, you know,

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I'm sitting here looking at, uh, at accordance and, you know, you've got the NA 27 apparatus and, and, uh, and you've got the

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CNTTS apparatus and you've got, uh, Metzger's discussion, uh, of, of this and it's always there on the screen.

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And, and that's in John, John seven 53 and you'd have the same thing over in John 16 and we're open about all of this stuff.

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And the Muslims say, see if you're, if that was really the word of God, God would never have allowed that to happen to which

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I respond. Well, that sounds like a, you know, on a surface level, that sounds like a great argument.

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It really does on a surface level. And you say, well, well, you mean you have to go deeper than that?

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Yeah. You have to go deeper than the surface level, uh, to really understand where texts came from.

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And specifically in this instance, what you need to understand is that you might well have a absolutely perfect stream of manuscript witnesses for your text.

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But if it goes back to someone who edited and created that text, you have to realize that that person becomes your ultimate authority.

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In other words, in the new Testament, we didn't have somebody who came along and said, oh, you know, we want to make sure that everyone has the same thing here.

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So we're going to edit this all down. We get rid of all the competitors. We give you an official version, and then we're going to enforce this version on everybody.

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I mean, if the, if the government came along and said, you know, you Christians are arguing too much with each other.

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We want to enforce some unity amongst you. And so we are going to put out the, uh, approved

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United States government translation of the Bible. Can you imagine what that would be like today? Uh, something tells me we'd be missing a whole bunch of stuff in the old

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Testament law, and it would be much shorter than it is today. Um, all you got to think about is that poor guy at the, uh, at the cafe in the

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United Kingdom, who over on a single flat screen

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TV had DVDs of the Bible running. And all it does is just puts the text of the

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Bible. It just, you know, in a graphical way, it just flows the text. He had the sound off. You actually had to watch it and read it to know what was going on.

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And the cops came in and informed him he was in violation of the law because he was posting things that could cause harm to others, uh, considered hateful because one homosexual had complained that the

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Bible was being displayed in this cafe on a, on a flat screen TV. Um, now was he allowed to continue to do so?

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He was after being grilled, uh, by the cops and having to go to, you know, the powers that be, uh, to come in our direction, to come in our direction.

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So can you imagine if there was a, uh, Bible translation put out by the government meant to keep us from arguing with one another?

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Now, if the, if the government then instructed you to burn all of the

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Bibles and use only theirs, well, you know, that would probably over time lead.

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And they continue to do this would lead to a pretty consistent, uh, usage of just one Bible translation.

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Now, of course, today there's so many millions and millions and millions of Bibles. Nobody could ever get rid of all of them. But what if you're way back at the beginning when there weren't printing presses and things like that, and there weren't millions and millions of copies, what then?

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That's exactly what happened with the Quran. That's exactly what even the Islamic story is of the ethmonic revision and what happened with the third caliph

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Uthman and the fears that the Muslims had of there being a, a disagreement amongst

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Muslims and argument over their text of scripture. And so an official version is created and it's supported by the, by the power of the sword.

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Now that did not result in other readings disappearing immediately because there were places that sword could not go.

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And there are people such as Abdullah Ibn Masud, uh, who said, uh, not so fast bucko.

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That's a very loose translation of the Arabic, not so fast bucko. But, um, over time it did produce a very stable text, but is that what you want?

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I mean, for a lot of people, yes, that's what I want. I want a stable text, whether it actually represents the original lot doesn't really matter, but I want a stable text.

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So as Dan Wallace has put it, you're willing to trade the truth for certainty.

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You're willing to trade the truth for certainty. You want to see this in a modern context? How many times have I talked to a

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Mormon, young Mormon missionary, and that's exactly what they wanted.

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Truth, complicated, messy. Give me certainty. So I have a testimony.

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The Book of Mormon is true. Really? Which one? What about all these changes in the

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Book of Mormon that we can document? What about those? Well, the

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Holy Spirit has told me the Book of Mormon is true. Okay, that's nice, but which one? I don't want to go there.

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You know, I just, a number of months ago, had an opportunity to witness to a bunch of Mormons right in front of the pulpit at a war chapel.

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In a war chapel, let's meet with somebody who was gonna get baptized. He did get baptized because it was one of those situations where if you're here for theological reasons, this will be interesting to you.

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If you're here for hormonal reasons, this is a good waste of time. It was the hormonal thing. But anyway, and that was their constant.

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As soon as I would get into anything of substance concerning theology or doctrine, ah, it's just theology or doctrine.

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That's, you know, the Spirit's talked to me. I guess the Spirit doesn't, you know, get into issues like theology and doctrine and stuff like that.

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People want certainty. They don't necessarily want the truth. And sometimes the truth is more difficult to deal with than the certainty of certain traditions.

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And we have pointed that out amongst many, many people. And so, the reality is that the

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Qur 'an does have a textual history. And there are textual variants in the history of the Qur 'an. But the 99 .9

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% of Muslims don't have access to that information. Unlike Christians, who do have access to so much of that information.

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And we are free and open about it. So, that's the answer to that.

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So, there's the answer to Jeff, who wrote in from the wrong direction. I do not encourage you to write in that way to get yours answered.

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Use the contact page, please, at aomin .org. If you want to get your answers to your questions, please do not go through PRBC.

31:14

That's not the way to do it. And I probably shouldn't have mentioned that in the context of answering a question that came through that way.

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But I'll just ask you all, please, to do that. We're going to take a brief break, and then come back with Rick, Brandon, and your phone calls.

31:30

877 -753 -3341. Dividing that line via Skype. We'll be right back. What is

31:48

Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book, Chosen But Free, A New Cult, Secularism, False Prophecy Scenarios?

31:56

No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

32:09

In his book, The Potters' Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, But The Potters' Freedom is much more than just a reply.

32:15

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.

32:23

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

32:30

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the

32:35

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potters' Freedom, A Defense of the

32:40

Reformation and a Rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore.

32:46

at AOMEN .org. Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God, James White, in his book,

32:53

The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt

32:59

Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author

33:05

James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the version of 1611.

33:15

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .AOMEN

33:24

.org. Pulpit Crimes The criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

33:30

James White's most provocative book yet. White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned.

33:40

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture, one crime after another is laid bare for all to see. The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his

33:48

Word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day? The charges are as follows.

33:54

Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain. Pandering to pluralism. Cowardice under fire.

34:01

Felonious eisegesis. Entertainment without a license. And cross -dressing, ignoring

34:06

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women. Is a pulpit crime occurring in your town? Get Pulpit Crimes in the bookstore at www .AOMEN

34:14

.org. 1.

35:12

If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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2.

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If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

35:50

3.

36:05

If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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4.

36:31

If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

36:49

5. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

37:32

6. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

37:51

7. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

38:47

8. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 9. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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10. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 11.

40:02

If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

40:26

12. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

40:49

13. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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14. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

41:52

15. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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16. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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17. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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18. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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19. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 20. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 21.

44:31

If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

44:48

22. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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23. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 24. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

45:47

25. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 26. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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27. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 28. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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29. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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30. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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31. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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32. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 33. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 34.

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If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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35. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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36. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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37. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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38. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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39. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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40. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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41. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing.

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43. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 44.

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If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. 45. If you listen very carefully at night, you can hear it quietly mooing. One, the election of some men to salvation in Christ and the reprobation of others.

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Two, the decree to create the world in both kinds of men. Three, the decree that all men would fall. Four, the decree to redeem the elect who are now sinners by the crosswork of Christ.

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Number five, the decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to those elect sinners. And so, supra -lapsarian, the lapse, comes after, in the sense of, the first that comes, the decree that comes first is the decree of election.

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And the fall is, in this particular list, the third rather than the second.

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So, if you just compare the two, the first one has to create, fall, election.

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Supra -lapsarian, you have election, create, fall. So, there's a difference between the two. They change where the fall is in the particular list.

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Of course, that's what lapse is, the lapsarian element of that is. Now, what Raymond suggests, which

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I've found rather useful, is a modified supra -lapsarian view, which would be, number one, the election of some sinful men to salvation in Christ and the reprobation of the rest of sinful mankind in order to make known the riches of God's gracious mercy to the elect.

54:05

Number two, the decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to the elect sinners. Number three, the decree to redeem the elect sinners by the crosswork of Christ.

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Number four, the decree that men should fall. Number five, the decree to create the world in men. Now, that's a, it's still supra -lapsarian because the decree to, of election precedes that of the fall, but it is modified in the sense that the purpose of God is made first and foremost in Raymond's understanding, and everything else is subsumed underneath that.

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And so, is that something that necessarily impacts the exegesis of this text?

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I don't think so. I think that the arguments in Matthew 23, 37, or especially, really focuses on 2

54:58

Peter 3, 9. 1 Timothy 2, 4 is pretty straightforward, but especially in 2 Peter 3, 9, the arguments on that issue are not really determined.

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They may be influenced as to which direction you go by what you've discerned in the infra or supra -lapsarian discussion as to your conclusion, but my arguments are based not upon those but upon, hey, there has to be an antecedent here.

55:26

Peter is differentiated between you and them, and you follow the pronouns, and when it says patient toward you, there's a context there.

55:35

You can't ignore it. You can't just pop it out of the text and go, oh, this is a universalistic statement. So all the lapsarian stuff, does it have an impact in the way people think?

55:48

Yeah, if they've even thought it through. But is the exegesis of this particular text dependent upon that?

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I don't think so. I don't think so at all. So does that help at all? Do you have

55:58

Raymond's work? Actually, that did help somewhat, and I'm actually really excited.

56:05

I have a lot of systematic theologies, but actually, Raymond's I have in the mail, so you've just re -excited me that it's coming in because it seems like he had a bit more insight on that than some others.

56:18

Yeah, pages 480 through 489, so that's where your discussion will be there, okay? Okay, thank you for your help.

56:25

Okay, thank you, Randy. All right, God bless. Bye -bye. Bye -bye. All right, let's pop over to the

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Albuquerque area, I believe, and let's talk with David. Hey, David. Hey, James.

56:36

How are you? Long time, no talk. I know, yeah. I've missed talking to you, but I enjoy listening to your program.

56:44

Usually, I can't listen to it live, but I always listen to your program. Well, good. Excellent. I appreciate you.

56:49

I have it on my podcast all the time. Well, excellent. I appreciate that. Now, you were the source of the tweets that I referred to earlier?

56:58

Probably. I didn't get to hear the beginning of your program yet. I'll have to hear that later, but yeah, I just got in. I was out on a run from my work, and I happened to get in, and I thought,

57:07

I'm not sure if the program's on now. So I checked online, and so I was able to call you. Lo and behold, here we are. So this is what

57:13

I had, was James, the Albuquerque Veritas Seminar. Cantor spoke out of scheduled time to throw off protest, question mark, question mark.

57:22

Lots of police, lots of security. And then the second one, police stood up front on either side of stage while Cantor spoke, did not stay long, seemed nervous.

57:31

Yeah, well, what happened was on Saturday morning, Cantor was scheduled to speak after lunch, and the first talk on Saturday morning was

57:43

William Dembski speaking on intelligent design. And right after him,

57:51

I believe it was supposed to be Norm Geisler who was going to talk. And then they took a short little break, and I went out into the lobby for that break, and I was talking to some friends, and I noticed a bunch of police all of a sudden in the lobby area.

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And then I saw some other security that weren't police, and I heard them make a remark, something about to the effect, hopefully with all the police, it'll throw off any protest or anything.

58:17

I heard someone say that. And then I went back into the sanctuary, and then they made an announcement real quick that there's been a change in schedule, that Dr.

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Cantor was going to speak now, as opposed to after lunch, and that Norm Geisler would speak after lunch.

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And so that made me think, well, maybe they are trying to throw someone off, or throw any protest off, or any problems.

58:40

And so, yeah, Cantor came on shortly after that, but before that,

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I noticed some police coming into the sanctuary, and there was a police officer that stood on one end of the sanctuary in the front, on one side of the stage.

58:55

And then where I was sitting near the front, off to the left side, I was a few rows from the front, there was a pillar next to me, and a police officer stood like almost directly right behind me.

59:06

Wow. And these officers in uniform? Yeah, they were in uniform. And armed? And armed.

59:11

Okay. They had their holster with the gun, yeah. And so then Dr. Cantor came out, and someone from Veritas introduced him.

59:20

He came out, and he greeted everybody, and his talk was supposed to be on why

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I'm not a Muslim. And he briefly gave his rundown of his family, and he showed a lot of pictures of his family.

59:37

Really? Yeah, he showed some pictures of his father, and pictures of his family today, and he referred to them as, you know, the reason why, you know, the mercy that God has shown him, you know, taking him away from Islam.

59:53

And he, through the whole talk, he seemed like he was kind of rushing or going really fast, and the friends of mine that were trying to take notes, they were saying, you know, he's not really talking much about Islam.

01:00:05

No, no. He landed up kind of giving more of an overview of world religions, and he was talking, referring to Sikhism and Baha 'ism and how, you know.

01:00:16

He was kind of giving just a general overview of how none of these have the right Jesus and the right

01:00:21

God, and in reference to what he was referring to, of course, is his testimony.

01:00:28

He did say that he grew up in Sweden, and he did refer to the fact that...

01:00:36

Excuse me, I'm sorry. Yeah, that he was born in Sweden. Right. And he really didn't give a whole lot of, you know, facts by way of dates or anything to, you know, verify anything like what we've seen in the past, some of the changes.

01:00:50

Did he talk about being trained in jihad? Actually, no, he didn't say that. Yeah, he didn't mention that at all.

01:00:58

Did any of the pictures show him with a kufi or wearing

01:01:03

Islamic clothing? Not that I could tell. Not that I could tell. They showed a few pictures of him as a kid with his brother and family, and they were just kind of just all standing, you know, it looked like a posed picture.

01:01:18

He showed a few pictures from a mosque, and he referred to that as, you know, a mosque he was at or grew up in, but you couldn't really tell from the picture that it was him in the picture.

01:01:30

Interesting. Or that he was in the picture at all, you know. He didn't say anything about his father having multiple wives?

01:01:37

No. Nothing about multiple wives. Yeah, he did not mention that at all. How many debates he's done with imams in mosques in Arabic?

01:01:48

Nothing. Nothing like that at all. I was waiting to hear if he was going to say anything like that.

01:01:55

And, you know, I just thought it was so interesting that the police stood there on guard, you know, through the whole time he was talking.

01:02:01

I mean, they were just standing ready, and then he, you know, he was done within about,

01:02:08

I'd say, within about 40 minutes, 45 minutes or so. Really? Yeah, it seemed very quick, and by the end of it, it was like, you know, the friends next to me that were hoping he was going to talk about Islam, because that's where they went, and they were, like, really surprised.

01:02:23

Like, you know, they said they didn't really get much out of it, and I was, you know, of the same opinion. It was a kind of quick rundown of various different belief systems, and of course, you know, a brief testimony about, you know, how, you know,

01:02:38

Christianity is far superior. And then he said, you know, he basically just said goodbye, and then as soon as he was, you know, as soon as people were applauding, and he was leaving through the backstage,

01:02:50

I noticed the police officers kind of look at each other, and they both took off real quick, you know, as soon as he left the stage, and then he was out.

01:03:01

He was out the door, and he was gone, and after that, I tried to get out after that, because they were having a break right away, and I couldn't tell which direction he had went.

01:03:11

And what I thought was interesting, though, too, was they didn't mention him going to the bookstore, like they had the other authors.

01:03:18

I see. And so I think I have a feeling he just took off right away. He just took off right away. Yes. So did anybody else have police protection while speaking?

01:03:29

No. No. As soon as he was gone, the police, I mean, I didn't see any more police that were in the sanctuary, and there was, of course, security through the whole, you know, the

01:03:41

Calvary security that was there. Right. And I did see them. Yes, Calvary security, yes. Yeah, I did see them throughout the day, and I could tell there was just,

01:03:51

I don't know, there was, well, people were just, they just seemed kind of edgy, you know. You could tell they were just, like, looking around.

01:03:57

I don't know what they were looking for exactly. Maybe they were looking for people with phones or T -shirts or something.

01:04:03

Yeah, I think they were. Trust you, believe me, if I had walked in there, that would have really made an interesting place.

01:04:12

Probably so, yeah. I mean, I did mention once, you know, hey, I can, you know, fly standby over there, you know, and I'm sure

01:04:20

I could get a ride from somebody there in Albuquerque. Sure, yeah, I would have picked you up. Sure, yeah, we could have gotten some chips and salsa again like we did.

01:04:27

Man, how long ago was that? You dragged me over there for the first time. Yeah, I think, I don't know, was it, it's been at least 10 years probably, right?

01:04:35

Oh, it's, oh. 12 years, maybe? I'm not sure. Was it, was it, it had to have been in the 90s at some point.

01:04:40

Oh, yeah, you're probably right. It's been even longer. Yeah, yeah. See, when you get as old as we are now, you start forgetting stuff like that.

01:04:46

It all seems to be faster and faster. You're right, it was probably around the late 90s.

01:04:51

Yeah, I think you're right, yeah. But, yeah, it was a very interesting day, to say the least. Wow. And a lot of people that I was with were making comments and they were wondering, too, like, why isn't the police here yet?

01:05:03

Did they, so did they move Geisler into Canner's spot after lunch then? Yes, they did.

01:05:08

Geisler did speak after lunch and, yeah, there were no more police presence after Canner left, you know.

01:05:15

I see. It just was, it just felt like, I don't know, like something really strange. Yes, no question about it.

01:05:21

With all the police presence. All right. Well, I appreciate that information because I, you know, I read those tweets and I was just like, really?

01:05:28

Honestly? Wow, what is that, what is that all about? What would it be like to attend something like that?

01:05:33

Yeah, I don't know if any of the other places, like the other Calvary, Costa Mesa, if you had police presence or not. Well, I can guarantee you they had security because, as we understand, they, yeah, they did.

01:05:45

Yeah, I heard that remark from that one guy and there was one guy that jumped up apparently. Yes, yes, yeah.

01:05:50

Who was a part of that church? Yeah, that was surprising too, yeah.

01:05:56

Well, hey, I really appreciate you taking the time to call in today and letting us know about that. It's interesting, it's sort of sad to hear, but it's also interesting to see the developments.

01:06:07

And sometime we're going to have to get over there and say hello again. Yeah, I'd love to have you back sometime. All right, thanks a lot, brother.

01:06:13

Okay, take care, James. All right, God bless. Bye -bye. Bye -bye. All right, well, I'm glad Dave got a chance to call in and get a firsthand testimony as to what was going on there.

01:06:25

Very interesting, very interesting indeed. Wouldn't it be easier, Dr. Kanner, if you just came out and admitted all of it and got a new start?

01:06:34

Wouldn't that be great? We still pray toward that end. Hey, we'll see you, Lord willing, on Thursday afternoon here on The Dividing Line.

01:06:41

Talk to you then. God bless. God bless.

01:07:37

The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

01:07:46

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01:07:52

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01:08:00

Join us again this Thursday afternoon at 4 p .m. for The Dividing Line. Thanks for watching.