Social Justice Cancel Culture: Alive and Well in the PCA

We are live now in the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris. I'm sorry.

It's 10 minutes late. I Am having some issues with my computer I got to figure this out because the last few days it keeps freezing on me

And I don't know why so it froze on me right as I was about to start and so That's what happened.

So pray that it doesn't freeze during the live stream so I'll be looking at it, of course later tonight, but With that said we're gonna jump right into it.

I want to talk about what's going on right now In PCA circles,

I'm sure that if you are a member of the Presbyterian Church in America And you're active online on social media and you're in chat groups all those private chat groups

I'm sure are a buzz right now with a lot of things. But one of the things is this Attempt to I think it's smear smeared that Garris who's been on the podcast before and in fact we had him on I want to say a

Month or two ago and we were talking a little bit about this whole David French thing So I'm gonna give

I'm gonna start from the beginning. We're gonna start at the David French stuff but then I'm gonna get to the current attempt to more or less cancels that Garris pastors at Garris and It should be good.

I think it's gonna be a good podcast. It is not the podcast I was expecting to do today. I was gonna do a news roundup

I have a number of things saved up that I wanted to talk about from various denominations and just Christian news and we'll get to that next week at this point because I thought you know

I really want to talk about this. This is important And and Zach has been a good friend as far as I mean,

I don't I don't live in the same state as him I don't see him in person. I think I met him twice in person, but as far as Just I mean even the book

I have it sitting here somewhere There it is even my books

Christianity and social justice acts the one that published that and I asked him to do it and Didn't really give him a very long window to help me with that and he he was great

I mean, he's someone I can call up and ask him about changes if I need to make them and it's just I don't know

He's a nice guy and what's happening to him isn't really right and I agree with Jimmy starfish Zach Garris did nothing wrong and not not in an absolute sense because we all have sins, but what they're trying to Get him on isn't isn't wrong.

And that's what I want to talk about today. So we'll go through all of that Let's start. Let's jump into it and just start the story time.

Okay, so we'll start the story off with Maybe two months ago There it was announced

The PC announced they were going to have a special panel on It was it was on political and social topics and Trying to make sure that I'm trying to remember the name of the the actual panel.

I can't remember the name of it I know I remember the theme of it. It was attempting to de -escalate the

Politicalization of the church and David French was one of the panelists who was going to participate in that long story short

David French is no. Well after it was announced and There were some conservatives who were upset about this

David French was I? Assume disinvited so it the panel does not exist.

It's not going to happen. They're gonna do I think Worship time or so they have some other activity that they're going to do at the

PCA General Assembly and To summarize much of this came down to the fact that you know,

David French is not It's not just that he's a leftist which I think he's proven at this point that he is and that he's subversive

Which yeah, he is It's that he left the PCA and him and his wife essentially trashed the

PCA so They've said all kinds of things against the PCA and Then they're invited back and it's not just that he leans left

But he's like really left like he was, you know supported the marriage equality act

I think that was what it was called and that was like a year ago, right? That wasn't ancient history

He he's the one and it keeps coming up that he talked about How drag queen story hours of a blessing of Liberty?

I mean this guy is way out there and He's not the kind of person that you would normally put on a panel.

That's for the PCA as I understand it and that's Why I think it was a good choice to they should have never really had him to begin with but they decided not to have him and You know, of course the thing about this is the left starts screaming cancel culture when this happens, right?

Every time Conservatives get a victory to roll back some even if it's a little bitty victory to try to just roll back a little bit of all the

Negative stuff that progressives have infused into our associations denominations and organizations in Christianity They're called on the carpet for cancel culture attempts.

I remember with Ed Litton. This was a thing, right? You're trying to cancel him by bringing up his plagiarism issues

JD Greer had a big deal about this that Conservatives are just as guilty of cancel culture.

They're cancel culture people, too And I've tried to explain this before but the term cancel culture.

It's like the term woke, right? It's a newer term It can be used a little loosely, but it was

Popularized in a context in which people were losing their jobs their livelihoods the ability to feed their family

They were trashed with no opportunity for Really any kind of redemption?

That's what cancel culture has meant that you're going to bring down the hammer of the regime approved narrative on to those who disapprove of that narrative and Make it so they are outcasts in polite society

So they cannot participate anymore. They will be on the fringes, right? That's the whole point of cancel culture, it's not just canceling someone from an event it's not just Saying we don't agree with a certain position

That someone holds or we don't think they should be in a position of authority Because they disagree with our statement of faith or something like that.

That's not really cancel culture Cancel culture has an intent to destroy the person it has an intent to prevent that person from having any influence and I would say most of the time even in the future and I think most importantly cancel culture is fused with the arm of state approved and Regime approved so that you know the whole and when

I say regime, I'm not talking about just a Biden administration, but we're talking about What's accepted in the media and in academia and other places of influence education?

That the narrative that they seem to be all on board with and they do seem to work in lockstep. Don't they?

It's using their influence to crush that person, right? Hopefully we're clear on that.

Hopefully I don't have to explain it anymore Maybe we should do maybe there are pieces on this that have been written. I just haven't read them, but That's what we're talking about.

We're talking about cancel culture. So what happened to David French? Was it what was he cancelled from an event shirt? Is it cancel culture?

Not really It's more of a recognition that David French doesn't fit here David French by his own words and admission doesn't fit in the

PCA and he left because And Zach and I actually talked about this in the podcast him and his wife were saying things like There's there's all these racists and neo -confederates and so forth deplorables in the

PCA and so it's not a fit for them So, you know, this is the David French that was cancelled from an event

This wasn't an attempt to destroy And it didn't have the effect of destroying David French's Ability to Feed his family to work to operate

He more than has that ability because he works for he's an op -ed writer from the New York Times, right?

I mean, there's really nothing the PCA can do to harm him. Anyway in that sense. There wasn't any bringing a

Regime approved narratives down on him because he was in a violation of them somehow in a way that would

Make him give him the scarlet letter for years to come nothing like that and That though is what's happening or starting to happen.

Was that Garris right now? And so I'll explain that as the program Unfolds what

I'm seeing. So leave your comments leave your questions in The comm box on Twitter or Facebook or YouTube Can't do it on rumble, but on those three you can and we already have some comments coming in we have

Civisly civisly, I don't know minded saying I have a PCA Re and leaving for Georgia on Monday and not only sent a strong letter to Brian Chapel But also made a video about it on my channel

I'm not sure if this is Re David French or what Brian Chapel was the one who made the announcement

David French is no longer coming to the PCA event David French Ryan buys says was not even charging the

PCA. It was simply a single PCA employee who made a very bad decision And David French was not canceled by the

PCA the event was canceled though, that's a good point too. I didn't even think about that So that is true they

David French wasn't singled out and saying well, we're gonna still do this, but David French is out They actually just canceled the whole event.

So that's a really good point that I You know, I some people might not think that makes a huge difference.

I think it kind of does at least Somewhat now maybe that the intention was because of all the controversy surrounding

David French, I don't know but Cancel culture is not boycotting. It's targeted harassment campaigns gay ops and docs

So, yeah, I would say that that is stuff that goes along with cancel culture for sure. It's not just disagreement over something

That's the point. I'm trying to make Okay, a ruling elder ruling elders re I wouldn't serve with that meant.

Okay, so a PC ruling elder Okay, so if you're in the PC, I'd love to hear from you and leave a comment of what you think about what we're gonna

Talk about on this particular Podcast so I explained the French thing. I think in all the detail we need to explain it

It's really it's not the main part of this but I the only reason I'm bringing it up is because a

Number of people have told me in the PCA that they think that the left wing of the PCA wants their pound of flesh they're mad that this happened that conservatives were able to rally and get that panel canceled and Now they want to exact some kind of revenge now

There's no I can't point you to a source on that and I'm not saying that's even necessarily the motivation for everyone on this

I'm just saying this is what I'm hearing from people. I know in the PCA that they think that that's what's motivating What's currently happening?

so That brings us to this And I wasn't gonna cover this I didn't actually think it was big a big deal enough to cover but I'm realizing more and more it probably is so this was

June 5th a statement came out from Grimke seminary and the statement to summarize

Says that they are going to collaborate with people that they don't always necessarily agree with on everything and That they've done this with a number of institutions

They have a wide number of institutions that they will collaborate with now, you know, of course, these are all

Christian institutions And can impress as one of them. So as American reformer, but along with you know

All sorts of other organizations and they're including Christianity Today nine marks and the gospel coalition so you got some organizations that I certainly would not partner with that are part of this lineup and They say that it doesn't mean that we we don't you know

We put our stamp of approval on the entire organization just because we partnered with them in some way

But we still I think it's okay to partner. That's basically the statement

I'll just read the last line here this Let's see here do

Okay Grimke seminary is committed to resisting unnecessary tribalism for the sake of the truth the health of the church and the glory of God and we will continue to serve alongside any church or Organization in service of equipping pastors and leaders for local church ministry.

So that's their stance Okay, so they take a principled stance now, why do they have to take this stance to begin with?

Well, I'm gonna show you a few things but you might think to yourself. Well, this isn't a lot and I'll just say it doesn't seem like a lot.

There's some social media pressure against them for partnering with a certain organization Much of the pressure though isn't

It's like an iceberg you see stuff on Twitter. Sometimes sometimes it might be nothing, but sometimes it's there's a lot of phone calls emails and Conversations happening behind the scenes that are

Vastly more important than what you're seeing on social media. And I think this is one of those times Remember, they were forced into having to make a statement to defend what they were doing and the organization, of course is

American Reformer They were put into a position where they had to defend a partnership with American Reformer And it's very loose partnership to be quite honest.

It comes down to this At the PCA General Assembly, which is next week American Reformer and Greenpeace Seminary had events and these events coincided with one another and Rather than conflict have conflicting events

So people had to choose and they made the decision together to share resources to share a space and to share the

Whatever I guess hors d 'oeuvres drinks those kinds of things are you know? These got these cost money right and they're gonna have a joint reception

It doesn't mean they have any speakers there who are going to address everyone. It doesn't mean that there's a certain position.

They're Promoting or a book or anything other than these two organizations are going to be together in the same place

And you can meet people you can meet faculty from Grimke seminary. You can meet people that work for American Reformer.

That's it That's all it was well Stephen Wolfe who wrote the case for Christian nationalism if you don't know who that is.

He is a figure that is Somewhat has been considered now controversial in the broader evangelical world

He tweeted out on X that he was going to attend this event or was planning on it

I don't know if he will go but that's what he said and This caused I think that's the genesis of the where this thing started just his attendance his mere attendance

Became a Well, I'll show you a few things show you a little bit what

I'm talking about this at least the publicly available stuff so starting here we have

Evan Robinson Evan Robinson who is on staff At a

PCA Church and He says that Grimke seminary you are making a mistake by including cannon press and American Reformer as trustworthy resources.

They're not trustworthy and They teach things that are contrary to the gospel now as a serious charge, by the way, including evil rationales for slavery now

I want to point out something very very Important in my mind, but you might think it's very small That's because they have supposedly and this is allegedly okay, because they allegedly might have a different perspective on Slavery and And I'm not even saying what it is, but they just have a different ethical perspective.

They are now teaching things contrary to the gospel This is a problem and this is

I think the heart of the woke error in Christianity is this attempt to fuse?

egalitarian social justice type Views with the gospel so that if you deny those egalitarian things in some way

Or those social justice things or you know You you don't think a certain labor relationship or social arrangement is as bad as a liberal might think it is

You end up becoming a pariah and not just a pariah because you have an ethical view

But you end up becoming a heretic because you've now denied the gospel and I'm just here to say an ethical disagreement on a social issue

And I'm saying a basic ethical ethical disagreement does not automatically make someone a gospel denying heretic now

There could be ethical disagreements. We just talked about David French a little bit where you're denying certain things in the created order and they're very serious actually but you know when you're talking about a different understanding of what the

Bible teaches on something the Bible speaks to and You're grappling with what does scripture say about this this ethical thing?

And you're not contradicting the created order. You're not Going against, you know, very fundamental things that God has designed and said are good

But you're trying to understand and apply the to the best of your ability what

God actually does say about a social issue That doesn't mean that you don't have the gospel

Right, you can still be wrong about something like that too and still have the gospel The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ came and took our sins and it's really about his work

It's not about our works. And so I want to point that out Maybe I'm belaboring the point but this is a big problem and you have people like this in the denomination who are serving in pastoral capacities and that's a problem and of course, you know, you had people who like this tweet and You know

Samuel Perry who contributed to Time magazine and writes against Christian nationalism.

He's in the SPC He's not in the PCA, but he's a big I would say he's somewhat of a mover and shaker and evangelicalism and of course he likes this which

You know just tells me where he's at where his His theology is that if he agrees with this you have a guy named

Lamont English who also Liked this and and so I want to talk about Lamont English, especially as we move forward because that's gonna be very key to what's happening with Zach Garris But yeah, of course

Samuel Perry made his own statement about Grimke seminary partnering with American Reformer to have a joint reception and he said it's pretty clear that what

American Reformer gets out of its association with Grimke seminary is Legitimacy the appearance of being mainstream nothing but mere

Orthodox Christianity here What's more disappointing to think about is what Grimke gets the dynamism of identitarian populism

So he's just smearing both of them. He's saying Grimke seminary is getting something out of this populace now so bad and American Reformer gets credibility and you know,

I Maybe it's worth just saying reminding people the Grimke seminary is named after a slave, right?

someone who was in slavery at one point and Grimke seminary,

I don't know. I just I didn't I I'll say this I'm impressed that they stuck to their guns on this and good for them.

I I'm somewhat surprised and I don't know a lot about Grimke seminary. I'm just not used to seeing this kind of courage and I Just didn't see it happening.

So good for them. All right, let's let's just go over a few more of the things that were being said You have this gentleman

Professor Charles, I don't know But he said as a concerned presbyter and concerned

Richmonder I have a few questions. Does your seminary teach that American slavery was morally permissible? This is where we start getting into the

Zack Garis stuff. So Zack Garis had tweeted out that he was going to Grimke seminary for this

Event, of course, he's not speaking at the event. He's only Joining so he's already going to the

PCA Meeting because he is a Presbyterian pastor out in New Mexico And so he's traveling there and he just want this is one of the events he's gonna go to while he's there

This is a very standard thing. It doesn't mean that he is necessarily even Like American Reformer wasn't saying we're glad to have

Zack Garis here as far as I can tell me Maybe they liked his tweet or something that he just said he's going but he's just an attender

He's someone that's gonna show up and he's showing up just for American Reformer and Grimke And so then it becomes well you have someone in the room who has bad views apparently on slavery and so does that mean you must endorse those views

I guess if he's showing up at your meeting and so they want to kind of turn the screw up on Grimke seminary to Disavow to make sure to distance themselves from American Reformer And you have

David Cassidy who had a whole tweet thread I'm not gonna read the whole thing but I'll just give to you what I believe the relevant bit is

David Cassidy is a PCA pastor of a large PCA Church and He said he believed that it should be sufficient grounds for Grimke to end their partnership with American Reformer in the reception

Their leaders thought otherwise however ironic that the PCA canceled their seminar and treated

French shamefully due to objections from those who would support American Reformer and even some of their most extreme voices including those in the

PCA like Zach Garris who hold what might be generously described as a dangerous view on slavery all right, so you have now

PCA pastors getting involved in this and And someone pointed out

I'm glad he pointed out Lance Burkhardt said that Cassidy was a national partnership leader The national partnership was a left -wing organization within the

PCA and I Don't think they exist anymore. They were it was mostly like an organization that Existed over emails as I understand it, but but this is what and he's side

B apparently Okay, so he thinks same -sex attraction is not a sin. There you go All right. So so David Cassidy weighs in and he he ties

Zach Garris to American Reformer And then ties American Reformer to Grimke seminary, but David French, I guess, you know, that was that was shameful

Canceling the panel that David French was on I think you're getting a clarifying look through tweets like this at what's really going on in the

PCA, by the way, and this is my Aside that I want to just say It really is a battle for power and it's like this in all the denominations and organizations that are fighting social justice

It's a battle for power at the end of the day who's going to control where the money goes who's hired what kind of social stances we take all of that and In an organization like the

PCA as that Garris is a threat to the general order Now their conservative resistance in the

PCA for the last few years as I've been somewhat paying attention to it seems to be coalesced around the

Gospel Reformation Network But what I've seen and I've talked about this on the podcast many times in the

Gospel Reformation Network Is there some good stuff, but there's also I think a lot of weakness

John Payne who I think he's still running it if I'm not mistaken he has in the past just Treated the left with such kid gloves even guys who legitimately are heretics like Scott Saul's He's treated those guys with such kid gloves and wanting to learn from them

And you know, this is the way your conservative resistance works It's also the way on the national level the Republicans in Congress tend to work, right?

They're not Really a great example of what resistance looks like and they don't seem to be after power

It's more of I think the understanding is that we're all gentlemen here and you have your turn I'll have my turn and we can get along and Yes, there's problems, but the problems generally are

Abstract we don't talk about the names really behind these problems. We don't demonize them. We might demonize some positions, but we don't

Attach those positions in the strongest terms that we'll use to attack them to the people who are actually promoting them in the organization

Guy like Zack Garris is different Zack Garris and there's a few other guys mostly younger guys.

I would say that I know of in the PCA are They understand

I think what the battles really over this is oh this is power and There really isn't much of a gentleman's agreement that you can have

With guys that are on the other side It's it is a political battle and you don't want to think in those terms in a

Christian organization and I get it You don't want to you want to think that you're there for ministry and you should be

But there is there is a political fight going on and it does mirror the fight that's going on in politics on a national level

So yeah to take out a guy like Zack Garris, I mean he's he's more of a threat probably Long term.

He's a young guy So he could go places but he could be more of a threat than even some of the guys in the gospel

Reformation Network The other Paul asks is it possible for Garis to get off the shame train and stand his ground or have too many mainstream?

Church associations smell blood in the water for him to fully recover What some people don't know what we're talking about yet so I'm about to show you

I'll just answer the question briefly by saying I don't think that he is

I Don't think he's necessarily on the shame train. He did issue an apology, which I think

I think I have that if not I'll pull it up but I think Much of this was for the sake of clarification and it's because of how the

PCA works if you bring someone up on charges in the PCA Which that could potentially happen why not right?

then they are going to try to find something in the doctrine that You have violated to bring you up on those charges.

We saw this with Greg Johnson and how for many years, you know even people in the the conservative wing treated him with such kid gloves it seemed like But he he was brought up on charges and this it was a battle.

It was a mess For years and then he finally just decided to leave himself. Sometimes the process is the punishment So if you can put out a clear statement denying whatever the charges are in no uncertain terms then

I think it prevents those charges from potentially being brought or If they are brought that they might not be received at the presbytery level.

So that's my That's my assumption. I think that the statement he put out was

More to clarify than it was I don't think that he's admitting that he was he's wrong about so many of the things that he said

I know many of you were wondering what I'm talking about Some of you know But you know I wanted to answer that question since I saw it and I probably forget about it if I didn't so let's get into Okay, well just real quick It's a few more things on the whole grim key event

With American reformer we have a just there's a lot of stuff like this like, you know

Who who cares what this guy thinks right? Like but I just thought he this is representative in my mind of some of the guys who are going after grim key, right?

Ray Whitlock Confessionally woke right? That's his title on X. He's Presbyterian And he it says it even has his pronouns right which

I automatically tend to dismiss people I just do who have their pronouns on these social issues just because it's like you mean you're you've already capitulating when you start doing that, but He yeah, he was against what grim key did and of course, he's written for the

Aquila report on On the PCA and you know, so you have guys like that.

Now, here's what happened, right? Let's get to the Zack Gareth stuff here. This is people are wondering what happened

I know one of the tweets in this threads was deleted. So Here's the full thing this is really it on on this particular screen, okay

Zack Garris, he's getting tired. He's getting fed up that this event is being attacked and A guy who attacked it this event that grim key this reception that grim key is hosting with American reformer

This guy named Lamont English decided to go after it and he says I agree with Reverend Charles here

Not super excited about being in Richmond at the PCA General Assembly with a bunch of Christian nationalists

Some who believe American chattel slavery was justified interesting So Zack, I think had enough

Zach said, uh -oh. He's sarcastic There's going to be people who reference

Bible verses at the grim key event People who reference Bible verses, right? So This is the distinction between you know defending slavery as we are often

Told people like Zack and you know I get the same charge and a lot it's like if you're not getting that charge at this point you must be doing something wrong, but you this is the distinction between whatever that is and Defending the

Bible's teachings about or concerning slave master relationships or slavery. They're different Defending what the

Bible's teaching on these things is different than just blank slate Defending as an open idea slavery.

Okay, but Is it and that's what Zack's getting at here Zack is saying There's people there who might quote

Bible verses yeah, and you know, maybe there's people here who have believed like him that the Bible has something to say about this topic and we've tried to understand it and apply it to the best of our ability and That's all he thinks he's guilty of right?

And so that the the charge here He's saying you is not matching what he actually believes

That's really what that behind the scene or you know underneath this since I've been watching these kind of debates. That's what's going on So then this sparks a whole back and forth

Lamont English brother Allow me to ask you two questions then is interracial marriage sinful, right?

So we're I guess we're leaving we're introducing now a different ethical Question and then was

American chattel slavery. Absolutely sinful It's that's phrased intentionally that way

You know because if it's absolutely sinful in every respect at every level every stage

Every place then anyone who participated then would would be what they'd be in sin

And that would include many Presbyterian heroes that would include people like Jonathan Edwards, right?

We're about to find out what Lamont English thinks of Jonathan Edwards. It would include Obviously people like Robert Louis Dabney it would

It would include though not just Presbyterians would include like the founding fathers It's the basis upon which

I think that Much of American history has been lobotomized and it's the springboard upon which other egalitarian questions have been foisted upon us and to the demonization of traditional

American heroes, so Zach Says no

He says no to quest the second question So he just doesn't even talk about the first one because you know

What does that have to do with anything but no to the second question the majority of American Presbyterians said no It's possible to be anti -slavery and reject abolitionism.

Let me read that again. It is possible to be anti -slavery So again slavery and also reject abolitionism.

This is a possible position to hold It's something I've been saying for a long time, but it's rare for people to understand

Some people do understand it, but it's rare for those who are on the cancel culture trained to understand this position

Do you think Israel's chattel slavery of foreigners was absolutely sinful? He asked and if you remember

Israel's chattel slavery of foreigners could be perpetual, right? So You could have people who are born into slavery and they remain in slavery and their their children are

Slaves and this was not against God's law now if you were Jewish that wasn't the case there was a year of Jubilee, but for foreigners in this predicament or even foreigners who were

Captured in a war and that kind of thing And maybe that was mercy. They weren't going to be killed.

They became slaves this is at least on some levels a parallel and now

I Have been convinced that I need to do a longer

Series of videos or maybe one long video on the topic of Slavery and American slavery in particular.

I've done some stuff in the past But I have extensive notes and I haven't done a podcast on it

And I have decided in the midst of this that I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it soon I am planning on doing it this month.

And if you are a patron you will get a exclusive access to that so patreon .com forward slash worldview conversation, that's where you find me and I'm just gonna

I'm gonna release it to the patrons first and just see what they think because I know this is a it's a sensitive topic, of course, and I want to make sure that Not just the information's right, but the way it's communicated is to the best of my ability my limited ability that I have but Kind of rolling back into this conversation what we're watching here

You know this idea that you could be against Slavery that you don't want slavery, but also against abolitionism was a very common idea and some of the ethics that Went into this for Christians were sourced from scripture including old the

Old Testament You have a pagan slave system in the New Testament in some respects much worse than anything that you saw

Really in the American South, but I mean they didn't have gladiatorial arenas right in Alabama, right?

You did in there in the Roman world but you also had a System that God regulated in the

Old Testament, and that's what Zack Garris is asking about. So these specific features that Lamont English brings out that You know

American shadow slavery. Some of those features are also similar or reflected in ancient

Israel's Shadow slavery so Lamont English then responds. He says hold on brother. I'm asking about American shadow slavery, right?

And this is where You see so often these guys Trying to say that ancient slavery

Roman even Roman slavery, but certainly Jewish slavery It wasn't even slavery wasn't even really slavery. The only bad kind of slavery was

America, you know It was a handful of places where the West was involved in the age of colonialism the

Slavery of the Old Testament. It's not even really slavery. It's just now they try to downplay it They try to redefine it.

They try to emphasize certain things to just really and I get it this is an apologetics issue, which is one of the reasons

I need to do this because I have yet to see Good Christian apologists address this accurately and you get reamed out by atheists when you start doing that Because they they know it's not true

They know what you're doing and you're trying to redefine or minimize something that so It's best if we're just honest with what the

Word of God says, I think on these topics just go with what God Says on this he's perfect.

He's righteous and sure there are situations that Existed in ancient times that do not exist now

There's certain conditions that are different that would lead us to have different arrangements in certain ways.

I think of even polygamy for example being somewhat tolerated and regulated in the law and And then you see in our context we've through centuries of development

I must say in the West and Christian influence. We have actually We have a more restrictive standard you know, unfortunately now we're going into homosexual marriage and stuff like that, which isn't marriage, but we've

We've limited it to two people. That's actually I think a good thing. That's an advance in many ways that is

In having laws that are suited to a culture that will follow them is good

If you can have a law that it's one man and one woman that's great, right and I don't want this to be about polygamy

That's not the point of this podcast God's original design was one man and one woman and I I believe that should be reflected in our laws

But you look at ancient Israel you look at Nathan coming to David and saying hey if you didn't sin against the Lord We would

Lord would have blessed you with more wives and that kind of you have verses like that. What do you do? What do you do with that?

So slavery in my mind is somewhat similar in the sense that you have these conditions on the ground when the law of God is applied and when

When you're looking at the actual conditions, how do you come up with the best possible scenario?

For your society, there's gonna be some laws that if they were implemented even today Like we if we made a law,

I'm trying to think of a good example. It's hard for me in the moment a Anti blasphemy law, for example, like I agree in theory.

We should have I mean we do have blasphemy laws They're just not against God But if you did implement a blasphemy law and you were unable to enforce it and you're in a society that constantly does it

Then it promotes disrespect for the law. So there's a lot of prudence and wisdom. I think that goes into these kinds of things

Back to the slavery thing though There's no nuance in Lamont English, he's not this isn't an honest conversation about Conditions in the

Old Testament versus today or anything like that It's really just I want to get Zach to say the bad words to say the thing.

You're not supposed to say I'm he says I'm asking about American chattel slavery.

Don't switch it on me Zach Don't try to apply principles from from the Old Testament to this.

I'm talking about American chattel slavery he says and then he says in your view as a PCA pastor was

America American slavery 100 % wrong sinful and not permissible now Again, this is you know, what do you mean by that at every stage in every place?

Are you talking about the Middle Passage? Are you talking about? after the institution had been inherited for generations and People who in like in Robert E Lee inherited his slaves and it was just sinful to have that to take

And what was he gonna do free them into poverty where they couldn't protect themselves like This is such a sloppy question

So Zach says I just told you the position of most Presbyterians and this is the one

I agree with He says they opposed abuses. So they opposed abuses in slavery They wanted to get rid of slavery, but they rejected abolitionism because of the

Bible's teaching So that's a great answer. That's the historic answer that is

Trying to be faithful to what scripture says on this topic and opposing slavery

But also saying that the condition the immediate abolitionists were not a group to emulate.

Maybe they were mostly heretics. They Were irresponsible. They did not want as compensated.

They don't want to The kind of integration and compensation that would have been necessary it would have been a bad situation for the slaves who were immediately freed into a world that They really didn't have any tools to be able to navigate.

I mean, it's it's just not even Taking into consideration any of the social or economic factors that were at play in those times

Lamont English then says I'd like to be absolutely clear as to what you're saying. No, no He doesn't wasn't he wants to act to say the bad words

Here as I don't want to read you wrongly You're saying that your position is no American shadow slavery was not a hundred percent wrong or sinful

Am I correct for the Ninth Commandment? I want to to ready you in truth so He may just be ignorant.

He may just be like thinking such cartoon In such a cartoonish way about history that when he he asked a question like that he's not thinking through how

How complicated of a topic he's opening up so like what would be a better question for him to ask probably like hey

Do you think? It is sinful a master -slave relationship is sinful in all cases or he could have asked

Do you think that? When the Bible condemns things like man -capture and there were elements of man -capture in the middle passage like, you know

Slaves in Africa and taking the way that slaves were sourced Do you think that's sinful or do you think that?

The fact that slavery wasn't regulated to the extent it should have been the way that the Old Testament regulates slavery Do you think that's wrong?

Or do you think that is it was a good or a bad? You know in general from a bird's -eye view moral practice to have like these are all better questions

But he wants he wants to get Zack on like get him on the record record is saying

No, American child slavery was not a hundred percent wrong And so Zack says I'm saying the Bible does not condemn shadow slavery per se and therefore neither

Can we as most Presbyterians held there it is? There it is right there That's what all the brouhaha is really about it's that tweet the

Bible does not condemn shadow slavery per se And that per se is very important and therefore neither can we as most

Presbyterians held? Do you think Israel's shadow slavery was per se was wrong? now as far as I know

Lamont English didn't answer this but Then all sorts of people start jumping in right and Zack Tries to clarify

I'm stating the position of almost the entire old school including the North old school Presbyterians and he is a

Northern Presbyterians changed their views but in you know, the old school new school debates when those first happened yeah, the old school even in the north most of them would have

Agreed with what Zack's saying? So there there you go. That's the controversy

That's where this whole thing really originated was and and maybe this was foolish maybe you know, whatever, you know, who knows it's

Twitter It's it's it's X it's It's a forum for The characters are limited.

We're not having long conversations. I'm gonna go in 43 minutes already Zach's writing a sentence, right? and You have this guy hammering him hammering and hearing he answers a guy's questions

And then finally he says something that fits into The what you're not supposed to say, right?

so so that's what happened and You notice what he's not saying though he's not saying that the

Bible approves of every aspect of American slavery or that You know, the

Bible doesn't have regulations that should have been followed closer or that slavery in itself is a good He's not saying any of that stuff.

He's just saying you can't with a wide net just say that all forms of slavery and he's specifically talking about Israel's slavery here are

Our Things that we should condemn because you have scripture regulating some of these things and God seemed to assume that the patriarchs and Many of the people that even wrote the

Bible and then we read about in the Bible. We're not in sin per se. I Think that's a reasonable position

But that is not for the Twitter mob All right. So a few things

I wanted to point out here and this is very important For the purposes of this podcast and I think you need to know where this is coming from if the

PCA Wants to escape some of the errors that they made

During and up to the woke controversies in 2020 They're gonna need to realize that those issues are still with us and I've said this many times in many organizations

The woke movement is not gone. It hasn't settled down necessarily. It isn't in an institutional phase

It is drilling down deeper into these institutions into which it already has a handle

You know why there's not streets being burned and then you know The woke war seems like it well because they won they won and in most of these institutions

There were precedents set and hires made of people who are now implementing those things at deeper levels

There are a few institutions that are taking the kind of measures that need to be taken to root out what they previously had adopted so this is a good good example of it and I want you to see this for what it is because the

PCA is reaping what it has sown with this kind of a thing Check it out.

This guy Lamont English, right? He's I think it's fair to say he's woke. All right Here's a picture of him.

I'm not sure exactly when this is from this is going around X But he's got the black fist. All right pro black on his t -shirt and you might say well

He can wear whatever t -shirt he wants Well, this is the title at church to worship and learn about God who doesn't ask me to deny diminish or leave my blackness at the door, but encourages me to To be who he has created me to be in Christ in my fullness and then there's a black fist this is a

This is at a church. This is a person who is Either before or after the service.

This is how he dressed in church, and he's not just a well Maybe he is attending the church. I'm not sure but this is someone who actually works for the

PCA This is the person that Zach was Going back and forth with is the person who was asking

Zach these questions he was trying to get his act to say something that would impugn himself and And this is you know, does this represent the

PCA? That's what I want to ask is this the kind of thing that the PCA the kind of person the PCA hires and This is what they want being seen at their church as representatives of their denomination.

This is a question you need to ask Now here's a number of things from just views that Lamont English held holds

You know MLK was he pursued biblical social justice, right? We talked about MLK before go look at my shows on MLK Tucker Carlson and Don Lemon are gone from Fox News and CNN Hopefully this helps bring a little more stability in public discourse and a little less racism sexism and progressivism on TV Well, so reasonable.

Yeah, Tucker Carlson was fired and I guess he's racist and sexist He supports he says so a

Christian Baker can refuse to create a cake for a same -sex couple But Twitter can't refuse its platform to dangerous racist misogynistic and a treasonous president

Republicans and conservatives your hypocrisy is showing so this is around the time that Trump was booted off Twitter that he said this

So he was for Trump being booted off the social media platform and conservatives defending him are defending a racist

Misogynist and he should be booted off right? This is a woke guy guys People still influenced by Edwards and Dabney sadly

He says and people like it shouldn't be influenced by Jonathan Edwards or Robert Louis Dabney. There goes your

Presbyterian history So many within white evangelical and reform spaces talk about how the church is becoming liberal funny

It was they who were theologically liberal or hundreds of years by denying the clear commands of pursuing justice and misusing scripture to justify demonic racism and I've said this many times if you

Have the view that the church has been horrible. Just sinful riddled with sin for Centuries and you're the first enlightened ones to come along and finally bring a biblical corrective and say

We are the true followers of God and for centuries before us.

They did not follow God You made a great argument for never joining your organization. That's like the Klan saying, you know, we've turned over a new leaf

Why would you join them if that you can you can do things? If you want to be an activist be an activist in the

Democrat Party that why would I join? You know, they all the leftists are gonna leave eventually. I Mean, that's it's an off -ramp from the church is what

I'm trying to say. Why would leftist stick around, you know? unless maybe it's to wield some power themselves or something, but Have a job.

I don't know but you know, you can't get the same kinds of things done you're gonna be limited with all these horrible conservatives that still are around because of our horrible racist history and You're obviously condemning the

Traditional people who love your denomination You're they can't have anything to be proud of in the denomination.

You have to now root out all the and be suspicious about all the traditions and the symbols and Everything that was there.

It's like JD Greer getting rid of the Brodus gavel We got to get rid of this gavel that was over the meetings because we can't respect that guy because he had slaves, right?

That's that's the direction that you go with this stuff. So they hired a woke guy Where did they hire him?

Oh, they hired him for MFW and this is the

PCA's global missions organization and He is assistant director of that particular organization it's a global mission sending agency the

Presbyterian Church in America and The interesting thing about this is not only is

Does he work for the MFW in that capacity? He's also the assistant director of M.

They say MFW MTW MTW, I guess Mission to the world. He's the assistant director of mission to the world's

West Coast hub and the National Diversity Mobilization specialist. There you go. Anthony English.

That's how he goes That's his I guess actual name he is the national diversity mobilization specialist that's the person that is getting

Zach Garris in trouble right now and On the page that on the website for mission to the world that talks about the that has that features

Anthony English as the National diversity mobilization specialist. We have this diversity and missions and I'm just gonna read it for you

At MTW, we believe that sending more diverse missionaries better reflects the image of God Wow and Helps build more effective ministry as people of color bring their voices and gospel stories to those waiting to hear if you would like more info about how

MTW Diversity initiative and the reformed and diversity delegates can help you in your mission.

Please contact one of your diversity mobilizers Wow, you got people that are diversity mobilizers in the PCA Well, why is it so important to raise up diversity missionaries, this is what the website says we believe diversity in our community

More accurately reflects the kingdom of God revelation 9 7 9 Leverages the unique perspectives experiences competencies and gifts that people of color bring to our teams

Romans 12 first Corinthians 12 is a power apologetic to the global nature of our faith and the reconciliation power of the gospel to break down walls of hostility between people

Ephesians 2 and it's consistent with a Presbyterian Church in America's report on racial reconciliation and its recommendations

So there's a report on racial reconciliation and they made some recommendations and here you go

That's what you get. Now. You have hires like this working for organizations like this that are funded by the conservative

PCA and Of course, they're going to be in conflict with your conservative pastors

You did this though and I'm not knowing you if you're someone who voted against it, but you're in the PCA and You thought this was just a great thing that we're coming together as the body of Christ and we don't want to be racist

You did this kind of thing to yourself there's not much more to say but these scriptures are of course are all ripped out of context and misused and This would be for this would be a foreign idea to just about everyone

Who's big in the PCA or just Presbyterian Church from antiquity? Embracing the

Imago Dei, right if the past few years we at MTW have been asking How do we better serve all our brothers and sisters in our church who seek to serve as missionaries?

How can we better come alongside all our churches who want to send? Their members for missions to reach a world desperately that needs

Christ We've been listening listening to our Hispanic African American and Asian American brothers and sisters

Many of whom serve as advisors representatives and champions of missions with their guidance

We've been changing learning adapting and repenting the Lord must first change hearts

But we can work to change our processes trainings language and practices to ensure that we are serving our whole church

Well, this is on the website right now at MTW. This is happening right now in your denomination

PCA you guys brought this in and now it's wreaking havoc and it will continue to wreak havoc and This is this is your own

DEI initiative right in your organization Anthony English is the assistant director of mission to the world

West Coast hub and national diversity mobilizer He is currently enrolled in Birmingham Theological Seminary where he's pursuing a master's of arts in public theology

He likes evangelism apologetics as well as helping Christians of color find their place and what God is doing among the nations

Imagine you had someone I'm just curious, you know, if you had a guy that's like who's white and he's like, you know he really has a heart for Evangelism apologetics and he loves helping white people find their place

Like obviously wouldn't wouldn't fly right? It would be horrible. They'd that that would be like worse than zag Gareth But this here you go.

This is happening in the PCA and this is why you have takes like this From Lamont English. I was shocked shocked.

I tell you shocked He says by this interaction last night with a PCA te Teaching elder

How one can be an ordained teaching elder in the PCA and believe American slavery was not a hundred percent sinful and wrong

Biblically is beyond me Interactions like this is one reason why so many people of color are hesitant to join reform churches

So there you weaponize it and you say unless this is what's being said You got a root out is that Gareth's because if you don't root out is that Gareth's and you're gonna not have people of color

If you want to open your doors and include people of color you want that right? You want to be racist, right? You got to get rid of Zack That's what's going on That's exactly the play and it's the play that we're pretty used to seeing and you need to understand what is happening here whether you agree or disagree with Zack is

Honestly irrelevant to me because the issue is something bigger than that. The issue is do you allow people like this?

Do you allow initiatives like this to control your denomination? Are you going to allow?

DEI initiatives and the people who work for them Control your denomination and set the agenda and tell you who is

Acceptable and who is not I'll tell you what if they bring charges against that Gareth's for this then

Shameful shameful and that this is the the train that's running on they are in league With that woke spirit and I don't care how conservative their bona fides are

They're doing they're carrying the water for that woke spirit that still exists and is an institutional phase in our denominations including the

PCA Now I want to just mention this real quick, too There's a guy named David Cassidy and you know,

I thought when I first heard that I was like haven't I heard about David Cassidy? You know, that's the 70s pop singer

David Cassidy. There's a different David Cassidy. He looks a lot different. Yeah And you know, he is a pastor of a big church

Spanish River Church in Florida. It's a Presbyterian PCA Church and The I just want to point this out because these are the guys who well

They're the kind of guys that are gonna carry the water, you know, they're they're not They're they're not how do

I say this nicely? They're ignorant. They're not that informed. They're maybe low information

Participants in a discussion like this and I don't know to what extent they make up the leadership of the

PCA that I would be curious Because I think that's gonna determine what happens with cases like this so he tweets out a screenshot of Zach and it's

Zach's apology, which I'm about to read for you, I will pull it up and then

Zach's Interaction that I just read for you and in Zach's interaction that I just read for you

Zach talks about abolitionism that he's against abolitionism when his apology

He says basically that abolishing slavery is a good thing David Cassidy doesn't seem to know and this is the problem we have the difference between those two abolitionism as a movement historically and then

Wanting slavery to be abolished. There were a number of gradual emancipationists

And people who wanted slavery abolished But did not want to do it in an irresponsible or careless manner that would damage or hurt slaves and also

Cause problems economically for everyone so forth and so on there were people like that and also people who didn't think it was

It was on the scale of murder where this is a level 10 sin that's happening right now.

That means to be ended No matter what the consequences they thought that actually gradually approaching this in a way that maybe included things like integrating into society or some wanted a

Colonization effort like like like Liberia was or a way to compensate the the masters who had purchased these slaves from the north and the

North the ship owners who brought them here were northern primarily They wanted a better plan and that was denied them that was denied and it ended in a worst possible way

It probably could have in war -torn conditions and in poverty and you had Some say some historians think about a millions got sick or in start million slaves after the war

Good job, right? So It's a respectable position to say this could have been handled differently not for these guys though They it's a cartoon of history

And when they're the ones making the decisions guys like Zach who are thinking a lot deeper about this who understand the issue much better both the theology and the history they're at an extreme disadvantage because they are up against people who have been either indoctrinated or Are just ignorant they don't understand these issues and they're trying to apply moral principles that they they don't even seem to quite understand to An issue that they understand less and that's my nice way of putting it

All right. I'll take questions in a moment, but I need to read Zach's Apology here. So let me see if I can pull it up because I don't think

I had it on My slideshow that I prepared for you here, let's see here

So here's what

Zach said and I will show it I'll display it so you can see In response to a question a few years days ago about America's history of slavery

I gave a brief answer that I hoped would express my biblical anti -slavery position. There you go biblical anti -slavery present not abolitionism, but a biblical anti -slavery position two different things

I Recognize that I was insufficiently clear in how I address the matter I Sincerely regret and apologize for not being more sensitive and how

I answered the question on this platform I mean, I I think at this point Zach is just bending over backwards to be honest He probably doesn't need to say this but he is giving the benefit of doubt that I wouldn't give

To clarify he says I believe without Qualification that God's Word clearly condemns man -stealing and selling stolen men as gross and abominable sins worthy of the death penalty.

Absolutely Even Robert Louis Dabney thought it was an iniquitous traffic. Okay, so this isn't really news to anyone

He's not contradicting anything. He said the doctrinal standard of my denomination the PCA expressed this biblical truth most clearly in Westminster larger catechism 142 which

Properly identifies man -stealing and receiving anything that is stolen as violations of the Eighth Commandment.

You shall not steal if follows that the transatlantic slave trade and Participation in it in our nation's history are clear violations of the

Eighth Commandment and wicked grievously Sinful practices of which we should be ashamed and you know, there's nothing here

I disagree with by the way for people who also would make these charges against me. I've said basically the same thing

I have never held or said otherwise the American system of slavery that resulted from the slave trade also involved abuses of slaves including physical and sexual abuse spitting

Splitting up families and the lack of education and religious instruction of slaves Now the question is he doesn't go into this but to what extent how prevalent were these things, right?

The woke mob wants to make it. That's the only thing that ever happened in slavery, right? and and that's why I need to do a longer thing on the conditions and in all of that, but But yeah, these things did happen and you know every institution by the way,

I should say also had some institutions are worse than others, but If you looked at our labor relationships today, can we say that they're all above board abuse isn't happening?

Of course it is Of course it is. So anyway all that to say for those who are freaked out that Zach is like doing a 180

He's not doing 180. He this is all compatible. It's all there's nothing.

He's not contradicting anything else. He said He says I think it was good and proper and godly for American Christians living with the realities of their time and to seek

To end the slave system as a whole That's key there. But by the way to the slave system as a whole so he's not saying

Carelessly and in in a very irresponsible way immediately end it without thinking through the consequences and he's not saying that you know individual slaves should like should have been

Freed irrespective of their situation and like in a John Brown kind of way, you know leaving insurrect leaving insurrections and stuff

He's saying the whole system as a whole should have ended should have phased out he says

Let's see here Did you seek to free any slaves inherited or otherwise received seek to confront correct and discipline?

Particular abuses of slaves and call for masters to free their slaves In so far as American Christians have failed to seek the abolition meant abolition

Mint of all forms of slavery historical and modern they have fallen far short of the standard of righteousness To which each and all of us are called that last sentence.

I'm not exactly sure what he means by that. I'll be honest that's that's the only part of this whole thing that I Don't I think to say like you we would prefer freedom.

We would prefer Self -government we prefer every man to be responsible and to lead his family and to not be under the thumb of Someone else.

In fact, I'll say this I would prefer and I know this is not possible in our economy many of you are this isn't an option for you, but I would prefer that like Everyone was self -employed

Or at least we could get back to a situation where like families own businesses and that kind of thing these mega corporations

I think it's bad, right? So I have my own critique of like and maybe people in a few hundred years are gonna look back in horror

That we had these these impersonal corporations that even use slave labor from other countries in some cases sweatshop labor

And you know phones that are created with with slave labor in Africa today

Basically, I mean these people are impoverished that are trying working for Chinese the

Chinese government trying to find Minerals and things to put in these phones and batteries and you know, maybe we're gonna look back in horror at all of this

Maybe we're gonna say what in the world What was so messed up about our labor relationships?

Why don't we look in Scripture and see we don't see corporations in there We don't see this Maybe we will maybe we will look at that.

Maybe we will take the microscope out Am I going to be condemned because I frequented Establishments that were owned by corporations or had corporate goods, right?

when you start thinking in the perspective of your own time and the things that you have it's this starts to Debate starts to make a little more sense

The welfare system we have the prison system we have right generational welfare with not even the dignity of work

You know slavery in prison that's you know, you're your life sentences and I mean, it's hopeless it's terrible

That's not biblical either right? You can't find precedents for this kind of thing Justice should be swift.

It's horrible. Maybe in a few hundred years. We'll look back and think that But we live in today and how are you salt and light in today where you are?

That is the question and if you inherited slaves if you lived in those times You have a lot of decisions to weigh

Including if I free them am I able to first of all is it even possible and if I can Will they be able to take care of themselves and thrive?

these are these are just some of the questions that have to be asked and Hardly anyone wants to do that work.

They just want the cartoon and that's what I think Zach's statement is a It doesn't contradict what he has said before at all and it's an attempt to show it really points out

These people who are trying to cancel them how ignorant they truly are That they even think this is a contradiction and that kind of thing so that is

Let's see. Was there anything else? Oh, yes. Yes, there was something else Council of biblical manhood and womanhood.

I noticed this that the Council of biblical manhood and womanhood

Published yesterday if you can believe it on the 7th of June an article by Zach Garrison There it is on the state of complementarianism in the

PCA Way back machine still has it up at least the screenshot of the front page.

It shows that it was there Not even 24 hours ago The if you type in duck go the

CBM W is at Garris on the state of complementarianism It comes right up says two days ago

There it is If you go to that website today, this is what you will find on the 8th.

Where is it? It is nowhere to be found There is an article by Emma waters on feminism right next to the one right right where the one that of Zach Garris was

Interesting Interesting now, these are the board of directors and the staff for the

Council of biblical manhood and womanhood And you got some guys that yeah, but Lincoln Duncan Danny Aiken I mean these have been featured on this podcast before for their

I'll just say woke affinities But the people who actually the staff the people actually run the show

Would be Denny Burke who is the president of the Council of biblical manhood womanhood?

That's the president and Colin Smothers the executive director. These are the two guys that Would have been part.

I'd assume if it works like any typical organization of making a decision to drop is that Garris's piece?

Right when there was a cancel mob coming after him And the only reason

I bring it up is to say there's capitulation going on here already, you know, the smoke hasn't even cleared and Zach hasn't really even been able to say much for himself other than this one statement this apology statement and really it's apology for The way

I would phrase it is I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were that ignorant I should have Taken that into account before I use the words

I did Well, that's all he said and there's a rush to condemn in so many places and And you know,

I don't there's no public anything that I know of so far about the motivations for why this piece was taken down But a lot of conservatives trust that organization.

They think it's a good conservative organization I'm telling you this whole thing from the beginning was driven by a cancel culture

It was driven by a social justice guy who works in Effectively a

DEI type mechanism within the PCA and look, how

Look how results are already coming in even conservatives run for the hills when the pressure is applied suppose conservatives

There you go I don't know what to say if anyone has connections to the Council of biblical manhood and womanhood you might want to reach out To Denny Burke and Colin Smothers and say why did you take that down?

That doesn't help In fact that adds fuel to the fire and it makes it look like this is a legitimate

Argument against Zach and It's it's shameful to be honest if he's such a heretic it'd be such a problem maybe they should issue their own a statement and And say we apologize because for 24 hours or however many hours the article was up there for the day

It was up there when we promoted a heretic Maybe they should say something like that if they really think it's a heresy or if they don't

Maybe they should just admit that they're being weak and that's my message for Council of biblical manhood and womanhood.

All right, let's take questions comments and go from there. Hopefully that was clear enough We need men of courage, man

So many people just do not have courage and it's just it's embarrassing quite frankly.

All right Let's a lot of comments I'm looking for questions

Mm -hmm. No, that's that's not for me. Let's see.

There's there's a lot of comments going back and forth Jim Jimmy starfish wants to bring up Jim Hamilton of SBTS publicly smeared

John Harris is a neo -confederate and remains employed at SBTS. John is correct that wokeness hasn't left the institutions Yeah, I mean,

I think I understand this issue partially because I live through something similar fortunately, I wasn't working for the SBC or else

I would have been fired, but Yes, yes, I live through something very similar to Zach where you have people that don't understand either the history or the ethics or both of And they just jump to conclusions and start smearing you and I remember in that one.

They were attributing Quotes to me that I didn't even have that weren't even mine things that I had written

Years ago that I had quoted other people. It was just embarrassing though that whole thing Maybe I'll talk about that more when we do our whole episode or a series of episodes on American slavery to help

Christian apologists navigate this much better because look I've done ministry on college campuses for years

Evangelism included and slavery is one of the things that comes up immediately about your Bible condones slavery

I've had to deal with this question for a long time and I am telling you the way that Christian apologists are approaching

This is awful. It is not it doesn't work And if you get a smart atheist, then you will find that out real quick Okay, there's really not a lot of questions here let me just end with this

I want to read for you something From a slavery debate and this was in 1845

It was on the topic of whether slaveholding was in itself sinful and the relationship between master and slave a sinful relation that was the proposition and It featured two

Presbyterians One was from Indiana and The name was

Reverend James Duncan And the other one see here

Was Am I getting this right? No, the

Reverend James Duncan was not part of this debate Sorry, the two people that were part of this debate was Reverend James Blanchard or J Blanchard I should say and dr.

NL Rice. Okay, you can look this up. By the way, you can go online and look up this debate 1845 in Cincinnati, Ohio Slaveholding is slaveholding in itself sinful or the relation between master and slave a sinful relation now

I'm gonna read for you an excerpt. This is from Blanchard. Okay Blanchard was taking the abolitionist position this is what is that yours disagrees with and This is just a little bitty

Little tease a little a little little bitty bit of information for those who aren't who haven't read the history on this kind of thing

He said this And in this is this is basically this is the extent of his argument.

Okay, most of his arguments about the central question of the debate comes down to this abolitionists take their stand upon the

New Testament doctrine of the natural equity of man the one -blood ism of humankind and upon those great principles of human rights drawn from the

New Testament and announced in the American Declaration of Independence Declaring that all men of natural and inalienable rights to person property and the pursuit of happiness

That is the biblical argument that he brought forward which it relies upon this

This broad doctrine this general spirit that then is overrides or Defines the specific particulars that the scripture has to say on this particular subject now

This is what? The rice said who was opposing him. He said in denying that slaveholding is in itself sinful

I do not defend slavery as an institution that ought to be perpetuated I desire to see every slave free not nominally free as are the colored people in,

Ohio This is interesting. This is Zach's position. Basically. It's a gradual emancipationist position that Condition actually is means more than status the condition that someone is freed into should be considered

It's not just whether they're slave or free as a status. It's also the conditions they live under and There's free people in Ohio that they're not slaves, but their conditions aren't good

They're not really free. And so he says that in denying that slaveholding is sinful

I do not defend at slavery as an institution. That's what Zach saying Saying I'm not defending the institution good rinse to it

But I don't want to come down on people who inherited slaves or were involved In non sinful ways in this as somehow evil heretics

Which is exactly what the woke mom in the PCA is engaged in doing we had centuries of compromise and the heresy and they didn't even have the gospel probably and Finally about two seconds ago.

We the enlightened ones we know Much more could be said I think that's probably about all

I wanted to read for you from that particular debate If you don't if you're not familiar with The debates of the 1840s 50s 30s 40s 50s on this subject in the

Presbyterian Church That's what's really being discussed. Now. Are you able to hold views?

About those particular debates that happened a long time ago and still that fall outside of the woke

Levels levels of acceptability and operate within the PCA. That's the question. So yes, it's an old debate

Why are we even arguing about it? Right? This this is we don't have any shadow slaves around. What's the problem? The problem is this has been used as a pretext to cancel everyone if you haven't noticed and so the question then becomes

Do we cancel those people do do you want to cancel a Jonathan Edwards? You need to ask this question and if you do then who else where does it end?

J. J. Gresham a chin. Do we cancel him? He had some some views on race that were not so within the boundaries of respectability

Not by the way stepping outside the PCA I was just reading some quotes from Charles Spurgeon the other day that might shock some of you

Because he's often held up as like the model Spurgeon is way outside of the boundaries of on some of the things he said even race related things

Do we just you know, we take the whole man into account and everything He said and try to represent him accurately or do we just cherry -pick that stuff and then say he's out of step with us

So we got to cancel him. That's the question being debated now make no mistake so maybe maybe a little bit of uh

Brushing up on that history would help In understanding where zach is coming from on this kind of thing

Okay, uh last chance for questions and then we're done. Uh Baby updates someone asked for well, thank you for that.

That's a that's a nicer thing. So my wife is due on july second so less than a month and uh, we are doing a home birth, so i'm a little nervous about it because My brother did one and that's the reason we're doing it was because he had a pretty good experience.

Um, but I yeah, it's scary a little bit. It's her first time right? So Um, and it'd be really cool because my my due date was july 2nd as well with my mom

And I was born late. I was born july 12th but uh My wife's due date is july 2nd.

So, you know, who knows, you know, maybe maybe we'll have the same birthday And uh, if not, hopefully it'll be two days, you know, it'll be july 4th

That'd be great. And then i'm gonna name him sam and he'll be uncle sam. It'll be great. But uh, yeah that's what's happening with me, so uh, thank you, uh for asking that question and caring about that and thank you for those who by the way have like sent me gifts and just uh prayed for me and stuff and appreciate that so We don't know if it's a boy or a girl yet, but we will find out

I thought it was really funny. I posted this on x that There there's been people that I know are pro trans, you know transgender

And they have asked me what kind are we having a boy or a girl? So I I get a kick out of that.

It's so weird, isn't it? You know, are you doing a gender reveal? Like you don't even believe in gender Uh, you but you think it's all a social construct

All right, well, um, oh this is really good. Thank you betty My daughter's had such a sweet and peaceful birth with both her daughters at home.

Thank you That's good to hear because I it's good to hear those success stories because I know there's horror stories out there as well Uh more coming next week and if I need to circle back on any of this stuff,

I will leave questions I'll try to look at them and maybe incorporate them into a longer discussion about slavery and american slavery and apologetics and christianity and the bible and roman slavery and All of that it's uh, it's a topic

I I have looked into quite a bit and it's not one I like focusing on all the time But when you have stuff like this come up, then

I think it would be helpful for you And that's my point is to produce information that is helpful for you Um, like I said first people to get it though are going to be patrons and so sign up patreon .com

forward slash worldview conversation and you can sign up for Goodness, uh five bucks a month, you know, and um, and you'll get access to all of that stuff

So with that, I hope you have a wonderful lord's day tomorrow worship him in spirit and in truth.