July 17, 2017 Show with Greg Nichols on “God’s Love: Indiscriminate or Particular?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on the 17th day of July 2017, and it's my honor and privilege and joy to have back on the program someone who is definitely one of my favorite guests,

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Greg Nichols, who is one of three pastors at Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and he is the author, among other things,

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Lectures in Systematic Theology, and I believe the first two volumes are out now.

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I know for certain that the first one is, and we'll be hearing more about that series. And today we are addressing one of the most controversial issues that divides the body of Christ, and that's an understanding of God's love.

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Is God's love indiscriminate or particular? And if you have any questions about that issue for Pastor Greg Nichols, our email address is

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ChrisArntzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com,

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and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Greg Nichols. Also Chris.

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I'm sorry, brother, we had you on mute accidentally. You want to repeat that?

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Well, I was going to say it's also a delight to be with you again. It's a privilege and a joy to be with you and talk to you.

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Great. And in studio with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor, who's my co -host today. Hello again, and by the way, don't feel bad about that,

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Greg. He also keeps my mic turned down a lot. There are very important reasons for that, but anyway.

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Before we go into the subject at hand, God's love, tell us something about Grace Emanuel Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

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I know that I've asked you to explain and describe your church before, but it seems,

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Pastor Greg, that every day I'm getting emails from listeners, new listeners who are discovering the program for the first time, who have fallen in love with it, and so there may be many people that have never heard you before on this program and don't know anything about Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church.

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So if you could describe this congregation for our listeners. Grace Emanuel is a church that's been in existence for several decades.

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We do have, as you said, three full -time pastors, two other elders, and quite a few deacons.

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On a Sunday morning, we have, well, some,

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I don't know, a mid -sized congregation, probably 300 folks on a

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Sunday morning, 150 on a Sunday night. We have a group of people that love the mixed group of people from various backgrounds, ethnic makeups, and the congregation has a lot of joy and a lot of family love, and love for the gospel and love for the

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Lord Jesus, and I regard it to be a great privilege to pastor such a wonderful group of people.

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And tell us about the lectures in systematic theology that you have written and also are in the process of writing, and how many volumes you intend to eventually produce.

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Oh, okay. With regard to that, it's been my stewardship to teach systematic theology in various venues since 1979, and right now

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I'm teaching for Reformed Baptist Seminary, and also we're in the process of publishing the fruit of those lectures.

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The first volume, as you already mentioned, the Doctrine of God, is available from CreateSpace and Amazon, and also other publishers carry it.

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Solid Ground carries it, Old Beaky's Publishing House carries it, the

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Trinity Book Service carries it. And then the second volume is the Doctrine of Man, and that volume should be out,

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God willing, by Christmas. The notes are all finished. We're simply reformatting it into a six -by -nine format to be published, so that should be, hopefully,

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God willing, out by Christmas, Chris. Great. Any volumes?

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I hope, if I live long enough to complete it, God willing, we hope to have seven volumes, the

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Doctrines of God, of Man, of Christ, of the Church, of the Christian life, of the

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Holy Spirit, and of the last things. Well, if anybody wants further updates on the volumes that are already available and those that are going to be published in the future,

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God willing, go to solid -ground -books .com. That's solid -ground -books .com.

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That's the website for Solid Ground Christian Books, one of the sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And I really want to thank all of our listeners in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience who have been frequently purchasing books from Solid Ground Christian Books.

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The founder, Mike Gaydosch, my dear friend, in fact a mutual dear longtime friend of both myself and my guest,

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Pastor Greg Nichols, he was recently reporting to me that he is very pleased with the very steady and fairly large flow of customers he is receiving from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And he was reading me a list of of new customers that specifically identified

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as the source where they discovered Solid Ground Christian Books, and the majority of the names that he listed

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I had never even heard of before. These were folks that never even submitted questions to our program, and he was going on and on reading a list of names where I basically, after several minutes, had to say, okay, that's enough.

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I'm happy to hear that. But, well, thank you very much, brothers and sisters, for that, because that's how

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Well, as you know, Pastor Greg, we are talking about something that divides brothers in Christ, an issue that is central to the

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Christian gospel, it's essential to Christian theology, it's essential to the core message of the

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Bible itself from cover to cover, and that is God's love. And we have titled this discussion

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God's Love, Indiscriminate or Particular, where we would believe that those who are outside of the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, outside of Reform Theology or Calvinism, however you want to nickname that, you have those who basically says that God loves every single human that has ever lived, and whoever will live, identically.

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We are all loved equally in the same way by God, and of course there may be some differences amongst even those outside of Calvinism, how they would explain that.

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And then you have on the other extreme, those from our camp, who are theologically

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Reformed, who would accurately quote from the

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Apostle Paul in Romans 9 that Jacob God loved, but Esau he hated, but they will leave it there, without any further explanation and without taking into consideration the whole counsel of God.

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And basically what we're doing here today is having you give us a broader picture of what the love of God is and how that is demonstrated and so on.

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So I understand that you believe that there are basically three different aspects of God's love that we should be discussing today.

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Yes, as I was saying to you before, that's true. There's a general love that God as Creator has for all of his creatures.

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There is a, what I call typical, it's a special kind of love, and it's a typical redemptive love.

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He has especially, and displayed especially for Abraham's physical descendants, for his people that he redeemed from Egypt, which is why

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I use redemptive and typical redemptive, because it's associated with the redemption from Egypt.

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And then there's that special redemptive love that he has for his people in Christ.

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And well, let's start with the general love that God has. There are even

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Calvinists who disagree with one another as to what the

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Gospel of John is really talking about when John says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever so believeth shall have eternal life.

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When John is referring to this love of the world, there are even

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Calvinists who say he's speaking about every individual. There are others that say, no, he's only talking about those who are out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

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But is this in reference to the general love, or is this specifically about those for whom he died?

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Well, like you say, that text is a controversial text. I think the general idea that is conveyed is that God loves sinners.

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That is brought out by Warfield in his exposition of the text, that what it's featuring by using the word world is that God has love for sinners.

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He has love for sinners from every kindred tribe and tongue indiscriminately.

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That his love is for those who are in a state of sin, and that love for those in a state of sin is manifested in bringing them out of a state of sin into a state of grace.

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So that it features the sinful character of those that God loves. That that's what he thinks is the emphasis of the text, and I think probably most people would agree on that.

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So I'd like to just leave that one there. That that seems to be what the text features, is that God loves sinners.

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And as far as the general love that you believe exists, that God demonstrates, even the fact that his blessings reign upon the just and the unjust.

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That we are all not on this planet being, going through misery and starvation and persecution in an equal measure all over this world.

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And even his, even the reprobates that exist on this planet, men, women, and children that we don't know and will never know, perhaps on this earth, that they are reprobates, unless we know for certain that they die without Christ.

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But even they have received many blessings from God. The fact that they are still living and have air in their lungs and a beating heart is a sign of that.

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But if you could go on further with your explanation of that. Okay, let me just say one thing first, by way of introduction or foundation.

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And it is this, that the question that you're posing, it's a theologic question.

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And I'm not really a polemicist or an apologeet, but my focus is on systematic theology, which as you know is topical teaching that pertains to and opens up comprehensively the major themes of the

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Bible. And the themes of the Bible that I've studied, that to my judgment, especially relate to this question that you're raising today, are such themes as, what does the

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Bible say about God's will and about God's, the function of God's will as the controlling influence over reality, and the function of God's will as the controlling influence over morality.

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And putting those things together is part and parcel of answering this question.

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And I address that in Doctrine of God topic 14, the sovereignty of God.

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Then second aspect of it has to do with what you're talking about, God's love, which is a virtue.

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It's also a feeling. But the virtue aspect of it is what you're talking about, and it describes goodwill or favor, generosity, kindness.

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And so it's an aspect of God's goodness. And I open up God's goodness in the

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Doctrine of God topic 17. And then the other aspect of it that you're talking about, and this is what you're more specifically relating to now, is the expression of God's goodness and love toward all human beings alive on earth today, which

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I address in the Doctrine of Man topic 20, what I call, and some have objection to the term grace, but I call it common grace, but I'm referring to God's common favor or kindness or goodwill that he has to all human beings alive on earth today, and this is important, who are descended from our ancestor

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Noah. And that's not simply to be left out.

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For example, in Genesis chapter 1 verse 28, God blessed Adam and Eve, and he said, and God blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it.

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And yet in Genesis chapter 9, after Noah and his sons emerged from the ark,

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God said to Noah and to his son, and we are part and parcel of that family.

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We come from that family, and all human beings on earth today belong to that family.

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And so this favor that he shows to us alive on earth today, his favor that he shows to us in the light of our relationship to our ancestor

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Noah, and he says to Noah and to his sons, and this involves us, and God blessed them, same as to Adam and Eve, and God blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.

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And so that same blessing, that same comment, that same word, that same idea, blessing, favor, goodwill, from God to man, is expressed not only to Adam and Eve, but to Noah and his children.

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And because we are Noah's children, we enter in to that favor that is common to all the aunts, all the descendants of Noah.

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That's the foundation of it. Well, now, since you've established that there is a degree of love or an aspect of love, a kind of love, that God has for all of his creation and all of humanity, there obviously must be a distinction, because he obviously does not love everyone equally as a father loves a child or as a husband loves his bride.

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Those two aspects of his love appear from the scriptures to be uniquely and solely for his church, for his elect.

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Am I right? Yes, I agree with your comment. But if I may, let me first explain to you why it's appropriate to use the word love to describe this position that gives rise to that blessing.

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The reason that I think that it's appropriate is because our Lord Jesus himself uses that type of terminology in the

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New Testament. I mean, Jesus himself describes this love, and he uses various terms to describe it.

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Let me just read to you what Jesus says. You have heard, this is from Matthew 5, he says, you have heard that verse 43, 45, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

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But I say to you, and here's the word, love your enemy. And why should you do that?

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That you may be sons of your father who is in heaven.

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So in other words, we should love our enemy so that we may be like, that we may reflect the character and disposition that we may be sons of our father who is in heaven.

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And how does our father love his enemies? Then he says, he makes his son to rise on the evil and on the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

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So he's talking about all know his children, and he blesses them with life, sunshine, with rain, with the provisions for life, sustenance of life.

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He gives to all life and breath and all things. And he does that even for his enemy.

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And we, like he loved his enemies should love our enemies and be sons of our father.

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And then again in Luke chapter six, verse 35 and 36, he says this, but love your enemies and do them good and lend for your reward will be great.

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You will be sons of the most high again, when we love our enemies, we reflect the position and attitude of our father loves his enemies.

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And then he says, for he is kind for the unthankful and evil be merciful, even as your father is merciful.

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And then of course, in the context, they open up the word that he uses for merciful, the word that he uses for kind, the word that he uses for love.

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And that may be a little too detailed, but the point is, Jesus is very clear and expressing the fact that when

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God blesses all know his descendants alive on earth today with life and breath and all things and sunshine and rain, he's doing that out of mercy, out of kind, out of love.

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Jesus is just very and explicit about. That's why I think that we're justified in using the word love to describe this favor that God has for all of his creatures and all the sons of Noah living on earth today.

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Yes, just like we are supposed to, we are commanded to love our neighbor, but we are not supposed to love other women as we love our wives.

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Obviously, that would not only be wrong, but it would be a damnable sin. So there is a distinction between the different aspects of love, but it's nonetheless still love that we are to demonstrate just as God does.

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Yes. Now that's an excellent point that you raised there. Certainly, we would not be saying when you open up what love means and what it involves, that the way you love your enemy is certainly not the same way in which you love your wife.

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And God's love, this indiscriminate love for all Noah's children, this is love that God has for enemies.

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And it involves goodwill and it involves favor, and that's the opposite of malice.

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We mustn't think that it means that God delights in his enemies. It's not a love of delight where it says that the wicked and him that loves violence, his soul hates.

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He doesn't delight in the wicked he hates. And yet at the same time, he has benevolent kindness, goodwill for them, and in that he loves.

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So what are you saying then? You're saying he loves them and hates them at the same time? Yes. I'm saying in the sense of delight, he doesn't delight in them, but he detests them.

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And yet at the same time, he has goodwill for them. And Jesus uses the word love in that sense in those texts.

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Now, there is obviously also a distinction between the unique particular love that he has for his elect, his church, as opposed to the love that he generally has for all of humanity.

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Because the love for his elect is permanent, is it not? Obviously, if hell exists and if hell will be inhabited by people, that love that he had for mankind in general could not be a permanent and eternal love.

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Well, it is true that common grace has limits. That is true.

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And what is the second aspect out of the three different kinds of love?

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I'm just going to open that up for you, okay? Okay, go ahead. Let me just, in summary, in a general sense,

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God's love is his unselfish disposition of goodwill and generosity.

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And there are three aspects of this. First of all, it's his unselfish goodwill and generosity as creator that he has for all creatures, even his enemies.

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Second, it's the unselfish goodwill and generosity that he has for the people that he redeemed from Egypt, Abraham's physical descendants.

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And that involves a special affection for them, a unique attachment to them, and an irrevocable commitment to benefit in accordance with the old covenant.

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And so I refer to that as typical redemptive love because it's associated with the redemption from Egypt.

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But then there's the unselfish disposition of goodwill and generosity that he has as the redeemer of his people in Christ that he redeems from sin and wrath.

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And this love consists of a special affection for them, a delighted, a unique attachment to them, a commitment to them, and a reverent resolve to bless in accordance with the unconditioned new covenant.

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And therefore, this is his commitment to bless them in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.

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And this embraces every believer and the whole Society of the Saved, the entire

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Christian church. So that's how I would relate those three different aspects of God's unselfish disposition of goodwill and generosity.

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There's a general expression to all of his creatures, even those that he hates.

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There's a very special, unique, typical redemptive expression to his people

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Israel under the old covenant that involves affection for them and attachment to them and commitment to them in terms of the old covenant.

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And then there's that special redemptive love that is a special affection, attachment, commitment under the new covenant to those that believe in Christ and the whole

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Society of the Saved. The Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to ask you or say. So how would this affect our witness as far as talking to the lost and saying, well, for example,

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God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, that kind of an approach to sinners? Well, okay.

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The question, yeah, I understand that, I guess, but depends on what you mean by love and what you mean by plan.

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That certainly can't be wonderful for everybody. Well, I didn't write that statement. That was Bill Burns.

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And the way that it's more typically used today is

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God loves you and died for you. And that is being used in an indiscriminate way to everyone, regardless of whether they are

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Christians or not. Obviously, a Christian needs to be reminded of that on occasion, that God loves you and died for you if they are going through some kind of trial or something.

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But to indiscriminately walk up to people that you don't even know, who might even be demonstrating hostility to the gospel, to say to them,

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God loves you and died for you. Isn't that wrong? I mean, there's nowhere in scripture where you see a Christian telling an unbeliever that.

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Well, what you gentlemen are raising now has to do with, okay, I've given you the general parameters, the general concept of love, right?

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Now, how do I apply to the accomplishment of redemption and the death of Christ? How do you relate that general affection, or not affection, that general virtue of goodwill, love, and the particular special love?

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How does that relate to the accomplishment of redemption in Christ's death? And then, the second related to it, how does it apply to the application of redemption through the gospel,

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I don't know, which would have to do with the free offer and regeneration and the free offer and the design of the death of Christ.

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So those are questions that we can get into, but those are pretty big subjects and topics, and I have no problem trying to address them because we've got some time here.

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The answer to those questions in perspective, that's where those questions... Yeah, you can address them when we return from our station break right now.

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And if anybody else would like to join us, we do have several people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you,

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Pastor Greg, but if anybody else would like to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with Pastor Greg Nichols and the love of God.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsin. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than 90 minutes to go, is

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Greg Nichols, pastor of Grace Emanuel Reform Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and author of Lectures in Systematic Theology, with seven volumes planned to be in that set, with two already written, and at least one published.

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Have the first two already been published, or is it just the first? The first is published, the second is in the process of being published.

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Hopefully, God willing, would be published by Christmas of 2017. Right, and you could go to solid -ground -books .com,

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solid -ground -books .com, to order those. And we are discussing today

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God's love, indiscriminate or particular, and before the break, you were about to address the common evangelistic method of informing people, no matter who they are, no matter how much they either love or hate the gospel of Jesus Christ, that God loves them and died for them, or Christ loves them and died for them.

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Hmm. Well, I was saying that we've looked at the general idea of God's love, and how it has these three featured expressions in Scripture.

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Then we said, how does that apply to the accomplishment of redemption by Christ, and then how does it apply to the application of redemption in the

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Christian life? Now, if I may, I would like to read from a document, not the

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Bible, but a document, because we are talking about doctrine and doctrines of grace, and so what

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I would... As long as it's not the Book of Mormon or the Pearl of Grace Great Price. No, I don't...

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No, it's not that. Sorry about that. I think that's another program, brother.

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This quote is from a document published in the 1600s, 1618, 1619.

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It's called the Canons of the Synod of Dort, or commonly known as the

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Five Points of Calvinism, and there's a reason why I want to quote from this document, and the reason is just to underscore the remarkable balance and sensitivity, various aspects of the biblical testimony that this document displays.

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Now, it's related in... Even though they're responding to five points of the

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Arminian Remonstrance, they have four chapters.

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Chapter one is the plan of redemption, chapter two, the accomplishment of redemption, chapter three, the application of redemption, conversion, which includes two heads of doctrine, and then chapter four is the completion of redemption in a

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Christian life. So it goes salvation planned, accomplished, applied, completed.

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It's a beautiful development. Now, under the second head of doctrine, they're addressing the issue of the accomplishment of redemption by Jesus Christ.

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Okay? This is what they say. I'm breaking into the thought, but I don't want to just read all of it.

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This is from head two, article five. The promise of the gospel is, whosoever believes in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

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This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations and to all persons promiscuously.

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Now, that word is used in a slightly different way than we might use it today, but you know what it means in generic terms.

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To all persons promiscuously and without distinction to whom

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God out of his good pleasure sends the gospel. Article six, and whereas many who are called by the gospel do not repent nor believe in Christ, but perish in unbelief.

40:19

This is not owing to any defect or insufficiency in the sacrifice offered by Christ upon the cross, but is holy to be imputed to themselves.

40:32

Article seven, but as many as truly believe and are delivered and saved from sin through the death of Christ are indebted for this benefit solely to the grace of God, given them in Christ from everlasting and not to any merit of their own.

40:58

So basically they're saying that the gospel is to be published everywhere without discrimination to every person, and that the promise, believe and repent and you will be saved and have eternal life, is to be published everywhere to everyone.

41:19

One. And if people reject that, the reason they reject it is not due to any fault in what

41:27

Christ did, but it's due to their own sin. And the reason people believe it, the credit is not due to any merit on their part, but holy to the grace of God.

41:38

Amen. And this is now, now then let me get to what they say about, that's what they talk about with regard to the gospel.

41:46

Then with regard to the death of Christ, that is described in article eight.

41:53

And this is what they say about the death of Christ. And I'm breaking into the middle of it because of the length of it, but I just wanted to get this one thought across.

42:02

It was the will of God that Christ, by the blood of the cross, should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and language, all those and only those who were from eternity chosen to salvation and given to him by the

42:30

Father. So they, so it was the design, intent, the will of God with regard to the death of Christ, that he would redeem all the elect.

42:40

And then they go on to say that he should confer on them faith and that he should purge them from all sin and that he should bring them free from sin to the enjoyment of glory forever.

43:01

I'm taking just the major heads of it. There's a whole lot more words in there, but they're saying this was the design of the death of Christ.

43:08

This was God's will. God's will was that he would redeem the elect, convey on them faith, purge them from all their sins, and bring them to glory.

43:19

That's why Christ died. That's God's will. Then they say in the final article, article nine, this purpose is powerfully accomplished and will continue to be accomplished.

43:34

In other words, it's effective, it's effectual, it cannot fail. This is what

43:40

God wanted done, this is God's purpose, his will, and this is why

43:45

Christ died, and this is what will happen. It cannot be overturned.

43:51

So they speak both about the indiscriminate offer of Christ to people everywhere, to everyone, and at the same time they say that Christ died with a purpose of redeeming and giving faith to and purging from sin and bringing to glory all of his elect.

44:16

Now again, we could go into biblical testimony to support that this is why Christ died, in order to bring us to glory, in order to redeem us from all iniquity and purify to himself a people for his own possessions, good works.

44:29

The textual evidence to support what they said in that paragraph is simply overwhelming.

44:35

Amen. And by the way, I want to give a quick plug to Chapel Library, because if you want to order the

44:43

Canons of Dort in a very attractive form, it is so inexpensive. In fact,

44:49

I don't even think they require a payment. You'll have to ask them how they work out those payment arrangements, but I know that there are occasions where you could get these for free, if not for a very, very minimal cost.

45:02

But the Canons of Dort are available through Chapel Library, and the website is chapellibrary .org,

45:09

chapellibrary .org. It's a very brief, attractive booklet, and you could order these through the tract rack in your church.

45:18

You could give them out, as we were saying before, promiscuously to all those whom you know, and it's an excellent little volume.

45:28

Now, going back to what we were saying, to perhaps correct the language of our

45:34

Arminian and non -Reformed friends, who desperately want to continue telling every single person that Jesus loves you and died for you, would it not be more biblically correct to tell people that Jesus loves sinners and paid the price for their sins on Calvary, but not being specific as to the person that you're talking to, because that person may be heading for hell and may wind up there, when that statement, if you tell everyone willy -nilly indiscriminately that Jesus died for them, then therefore you would be lying to them, if they wind up in hell.

46:18

Am I not right? Yes, I think that saying that Jesus died for you is saying more than we know, when we're talking to people that are in a state of sin and unconverted.

46:32

You know, and in fact, I can recall, as a lost person, as a lost teenager,

46:38

I can recall when my brother, who had become a born -again Christian, and I can recall other people who

46:43

I was eventually beginning to meet, the older I got in my teen years, who were born again, because when

46:50

I was a child, I don't recall meeting anybody that was a born -again Christian who was evangelizing me, but when

46:56

I was getting older, I was hearing that phrase presented to me, Jesus loves you and died for you.

47:03

I remember taking a certain amount of comfort in that proclamation not to change.

47:11

You know, why would you need to repent? Jesus loves me. He died for me. If he died for me, that means my sins have been paid for.

47:19

Well, thanks. Thanks for that information. Now, let me get back to my bar stool. You know what I mean?

47:24

I mean, there seems to be no real reason for anybody to repent if that statement is true.

47:31

Okay. Can I now go to the issue of the application of redemption?

47:38

Yes, go to whatever you'd like to go to. Well, you know, I want to be considerate.

47:44

I want to go to what the Canons of Dort have to say about that. Now, this is under the third chapter, in which they open up the third and fourth heads of doctrine, which are actually total depravity and irresistible grace.

48:03

So even though it's often presented as tulip, the way the Canons of Dort actually presents it is ultip.

48:10

They start with the unconditional election, then they go to limited atonement, and then in the third chapter they deal with total depravity and irresistible grace.

48:21

What they're really dealing with is the application of redemption to sinners that are in a state of sin and unable to rescue themselves in their own power from their sin.

48:33

And so they start with depravity in their presentation of conversion, and then of course they again mention the gospel being preached to those that are dead in their sins.

48:47

And this is what they say with regard to that, before they get to regeneration. Interesting that they relate the proclamation of the gospel and regeneration just like they relate the proclamation of the gospel and the atoning work of Christ.

49:06

And in article 8 of the third chapter, which is describing conversion, they say this, as many as are called by the gospel are unfeignedly called.

49:21

So it's not just promiscuous and indiscriminate, it is unfeignedly offered, right?

49:31

As many as are called by the gospel are unfeignedly called. And here is where the canons of the

49:38

Lord address the issue of the so -called well -meant, well -intentioned, sincere, unfeigned offer of the gospel.

49:47

It's not just indiscriminate and promiscuous, it is unfeigned.

49:56

As many as are called by the gospel are unfeignedly called for. God has most earnestly and truly declared in his word what will be acceptable to him, namely that all who are called should comply with the invitation.

50:19

This is what God finds acceptable. This is what pleases him.

50:24

This is what he wants. This is what he unfeignedly desires.

50:32

I mean, this is strong language, Chris. As many as are called by the gospel are unfeignedly called for.

50:39

God has most earnestly and truly declared in his word what will be acceptable to him, namely that all who are called should comply with his invitation, and moreover, seriously promises eternal life and rest to as many as shall come to him and believe on him.

51:03

So you're offering the gospel. You're telling sinners repent, believe. What's God's disposition?

51:10

He really means it. He seriously promises all in a state of sin that if they come to Jesus, they will be saved.

51:19

He unfeignedly calls them because he is pleased with it.

51:24

It's acceptable to him that they would comply with the call. Then he goes, now again, then they have to go back, well, people don't comply.

51:42

What about that? It is not the fault of the gospel, nor of Christ offered therein, nor of God who calls men by the gospel, that those who are called by the ministry of the word refuse to come and be converted.

52:01

The fault lies in themselves. And then it goes on to underscore again that if you do believe it's

52:10

God gave you faith, and it's all of grace, and then they describe the reality of regeneration, and that it's the regenerating work of God creating faith in the hearts of dead sinners that enables them to comply, and that he works this special regenerative work only in the elect, even though he unfeignedly calls all the hearers of the gospel, he sovereignly regenerates only the elect.

52:47

Now, could that be expressed in Matthew 23, 37, where Jesus says,

52:54

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her, how often

53:00

I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling?

53:07

Is that kind of a summary of what you've said through Jesus's own words?

53:14

Yes. When I address the issue of God's perceptive will in topic 14 of Doctrine of God, I do address that text in that context, and I give my reasons there, and I'd be willing to do that in a minute, for understanding that text to be referring to that very thing.

53:32

I know there are some people that say that Christ is only speaking as a man, but I will address that in a minute if you like.

53:39

Yeah, we have to go to another break right now, so you can address it when we return. All right. Do you have time for me to read the statement on regeneration or not?

53:47

Not right now, because we have to go to a break, but you can read it when we come back. This is our elongated break that we have to do to comply with Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida.

53:57

They require a 12 -minute break between our two segments. We will be back after these messages with more of Pastor Greg Nichols and God's love, so please don't go away.

54:11

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That's chefexclusive .com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is

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Greg Nichols, Pastor of Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the author of the

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Lectures in Systematic Theology, the first of which is already in print, the second of which is due before Christmas, and there are five additional volumes expected in the future, which you can get through solid -ground -books .com,

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solid -ground -books .com. That's the website of Solid Ground Christian Books. Today we are addressing

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God's love, indiscriminate or particular, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:01:40

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And before I return to our discussion with Pastor Greg Nichols, I have some announcements to make from some of our sponsors.

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The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, is pleased to announce that the

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Word of Truth Bible Institute will be offering two free classes this summer, the Book of Romans and the

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Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island is wotchurch .com,

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Then coming up in August, from the 3rd through the 5th, Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having—oh,

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I'm sorry, that's a different one. This is the Fellowship Conference New England, from August 3rd through the 5th, at the

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Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and the speakers at this conference include

01:03:28

Pastor Don Curran, who is the Eastern European Coordinator with HeartCry Missionary Society, the organization founded by Paul Washer, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, a dear friend of mine, who is an author and pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington, who has also been on this program.

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He is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, the sister church to Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, whose radio station,

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Grace Life Radio, airs Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day in a pre -recorded form.

01:04:03

And lastly, Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who we've also interviewed on his book Reviving New England, he is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire.

01:04:13

He will be a speaker there as well. If you would like to attend this conference, to register, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

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fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Then, after that, in November, from the 17th through the 18th, the

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Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals conference that I was starting to mention earlier, this is the

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Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and the theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a reference to Satan from Martin Luther's hymn,

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A Mighty Fortress. That conference features speakers such as Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

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It's being held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. And to register, go to alliancenet .org,

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alliancenet .org, and click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

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Then we have, in January, the G3 conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia.

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I plan to be there with an exhibitors booth, as I do with some of our other events that I just mentioned.

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This is being held from the 17th through the 20th in Atlanta, Georgia. The 17th is exclusively a

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Spanish -speaking version of the G3 conference, and the 18th through the 20th is the

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English conference, and the speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Bauckham, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

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Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

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If you'd like to register for this conference, which is on the theme, Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship, go to g3conference .com,

01:06:08

g3conference .com, and please, if you contact any of these organizations and ministries who are running these events, if you're calling them or contacting them to register or to find out more information about these events, please, please, please let them know that you heard about the events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:06:29

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01:08:17

That's also the email address that you can use to send us a question for Pastor Greg Nichols, my guest today, pastor of Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, who is discussing

01:08:29

God's love, indiscriminate or particular, and once again that email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:08:37

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Pastor Greg, before we went to the break, you had something that you wanted to read and we had to cut away because we were right at that time when we had to depart for our station break.

01:08:49

Okay, thank you. I just wanted to read a brief section.

01:08:55

I'm actually going to summarize what it says about regeneration. It says, but when

01:09:02

God accomplishes his good pleasure in the elect or works in them true conversion, he not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them and powerfully illumines their mind by his

01:09:19

Holy Spirit that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but by the efficacy of the same regenerating

01:09:30

Spirit, he pervades the inmost recesses of the man.

01:09:38

And then it goes on to describe how he opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, morally transforms the will, etc.,

01:09:52

and morally transforms the entire soul. And then they describe the features of that regeneration.

01:10:00

So, in the canons of the Synod of Dort, this is the summary, the point, there's a tremendous sensitivity to the biblical testimony.

01:10:10

On the one hand, they speak about the free, well -meant, indiscriminate offer of Christ be proclaimed everywhere to everyone, promise that if you repent and believe,

01:10:30

God will give you salvation in Christ. The free offer of the gospel pouches both the accomplishment of redemption, the particular accomplishment efficaciously, that is, effectively and certainly for those for whom

01:10:50

Christ died. It's commonly called the limited or particular atonement, particular redemption.

01:10:56

And the sovereign grace in the application of redemption, regenerating

01:11:02

God's elect, not only God's elect, both of those things.

01:11:08

Both sovereign grace in the accomplishment of salvation and sovereign grace in the application of salvation are couched in the free, well -meant, indiscriminate, unfeinted offer of Christ in the gospel.

01:11:25

Amen. And may I add, or should I ask you, does this not also include with it the necessary consequence that those who are reprobate, those who are going to deny and reject and oppose the true

01:11:44

Christ of scripture and his true gospel till their dying breath, that this proclamation to them is also going to add further condemnation upon their heads as they continue to obstinately and defiantly reject what

01:12:03

Romans 1 says that they deep down in their hearts already know to be true, but suppress that knowledge.

01:12:10

Jesus said that when he said it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for you, because if the mighty works that were done in you were done there, to paraphrase, speaking of Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

01:12:27

So you also asked about the text in Matthew as to whether or not that text was descriptive of the heart of God in the free, well -meant offer of the gospel, and I believe it is.

01:12:45

I'd like to start with another text, which is in the Old Testament, which is in Ezekiel chapter 18 verses 23 and then 32 and then 33 -11.

01:12:58

It says, Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the

01:13:03

Lord Jehovah, and not rather that he should return from his way and live?

01:13:10

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord Jehovah. Wherefore, turn yourselves and live.

01:13:20

Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn away and live.

01:13:32

Turn you, turn you from your evil ways, for why will you die?

01:13:39

The whole house of Israel. That's unfeinted in the language of the

01:13:46

Canons of Dort. That's well -meant. And then what

01:13:53

Jesus said, and this is what you alluded to, in Matthew 23 -37,

01:14:00

Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, kills the prophets. How often would

01:14:06

I, that's the word for, how often did I will to have gathered your children together and you would not come?

01:14:17

He uses the word fellow. I would, I willed, I wanted to gather you together and you didn't want to.

01:14:27

So there are some people that say, well, Jesus is just speaking here as a man.

01:14:34

It's referenced to his human will. However, the

01:14:40

Lord here says, how often, Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that killed the prophets.

01:14:45

He's talking about an entire era of redemptive history in which a stubborn rebellious people for centuries and generations rejected the offers of mercy and killed the messengers.

01:14:59

So he's viewing far more than, than his own public ministry. His pre -incarnate state, he wanted this, you're saying?

01:15:07

Yeah. He always wanted this. How often I would have gathered your children together.

01:15:13

He's talking to the entire, about the entire era of redemptive history in which they killed

01:15:18

God's messengers. He's not speaking here as a mere man. He speaks as God and for God.

01:15:25

And therefore he is expressing the perceptive function of God's supreme will.

01:15:31

When he says, how often did I will to gather you together and you didn't want to.

01:15:37

He's not speaking just as a mere man. The context indicates that he's speaking as God and for God.

01:15:45

Well, we have a bunch of questioners for you. If I could start to have their questions asked so we don't run out of time before we get to any of them.

01:15:56

We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, what role, if any, do you believe the idea of a universal atonement has played in the explosion of pragmatic approaches to evangelism?

01:16:11

Doesn't this mindset basically lead to a coercive, two coercive actions on the part of the believer in order to induce a decision for Christ?

01:16:23

Excellent question. We very often see people who are Christians at crusades and other events manipulating emotionally those in the audience or attempting to, if you could respond to that.

01:16:37

Well, I agree with the concern about the, about the, let's just call it unbiblical methods.

01:16:47

As to what's behind those methods, I don't know.

01:16:54

I'd have to think about that. I, I, he may be right about that. I'm not saying it's wrong. It may be related to the idea of a universal atonement.

01:17:04

I myself have always related it more overtly with something else, and that's with the idea that the power to save yourself resides with man, and that it's through my persuasiveness that I can have control over a sovereign man who has the ability and power to save himself in his own power and strength.

01:17:33

It, the whole thing seems to me to be man -centered, and that man has the power to do it himself rather than giving the power and glory to God.

01:17:43

That the whole, the whole idea of manipulating things is, is related to the view of a ritualistic view of salvation also, that I can get them saved if I just get them to say the right words.

01:17:55

So if I can get them to, if I can get these words to come out of their mouth, Lord Jesus, come into my heart, then they're automatically saved no matter what they do, no matter how they live.

01:18:07

So there's that kind of mentality that also contributes to that type of manipulation. I read a book once,

01:18:14

I don't remember the, the name of the author, but the book was called Soul Willing, Soul Winning Made Easy, and it was all about manipulative techniques, and, and, and it was based on that whole idea that the power to save resides in man.

01:18:32

Man, both the, the person witnessing and the person being witnessed to, that it's all up to man if he can just get them to go through this ritual.

01:18:41

Now that may all be related, as, as the scholar says, to, to wrong views of the atonement.

01:18:46

I'm not saying it isn't, but I've always thought of it more in the connection that I'm, I'm speaking of now.

01:18:53

Well, thank you Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and please keep listening to the program and spreading the word about it in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania and beyond.

01:19:05

And let's see here, we have some more questions. Brandon in Franklinton, North Carolina says, would you mind asking

01:19:16

Pastor Nichols for his opinion on A .W. Pink's view of God's love? It is my understanding that Pink believed

01:19:23

God is totally devoid of any love for the non -elect. Was this in fact

01:19:29

Pink's view? If so, could you provide an assessment of how he might have arrived at his position?

01:19:37

I think those are good questions. I just, I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to them. I, I, I'm not qualified to address that.

01:19:45

I'm sorry. Well, one thing that you can say though, that there is disagreement amongst those that profess to be Calvinists who would come from that approach, that they would just take the black and white explanation that Paul gives in Romans 9,

01:20:00

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated, and they just leave it there, that there's nothing in between the intense love, parental and spousal love of God for his elect and the burning hatred for the reprobate.

01:20:20

There's nothing else needed to be explained. I'm sure you would admit that there are Calvinists who view things that way.

01:20:27

Well, let me say this, on that question, this is the second time in this conversation that that distinction has come up, and I thought about it then, and I thought about how to phrase it since then, and I like to phrase it this way.

01:20:43

Rather than speaking about camps, two different camps, I would prefer to speak of views or doctrines or viewpoints, because I want to say that I don't think there are just two,

01:20:59

I think there are three. The first one has been called

01:21:05

Arminian. The middle one I would call Calvinist, and the one that you're talking about now,

01:21:12

I wouldn't call that Calvinist, I would call that hyper -Calvinist. I think that's a hyper -Calvinist view.

01:21:21

Right, and of course there are those that I have met that are in many ways traditional historic

01:21:30

Calvinists, but who have occasion to speak and behave as hyper -Calvinists, in other words, that their whole system of theology is not hyper -Calvinist.

01:21:42

Okay, I would say with regard to this issue and topic we're talking about,

01:21:48

I think there are three different viewpoints, not just two, and that the one viewpoint is

01:21:56

Arminian, the other is Calvinist, and the other is hyper -Calvinist, and I think there really are two extremes on this, and I think we have the danger of going to either one of those extremes, and both of those extremes that you're describing are wrong, both of them, they're both wrong.

01:22:19

And we have, oh by the way, thank you Brandon, and keep spreading the word about the program in North Carolina and beyond.

01:22:26

We have Joe in Slovenia who says, Dear Brother Chris, thanks for continuing to deal head -on with the most challenging topics in Christ Church today.

01:22:37

My question today deals with the objection that I hear in regard to God's sovereign election.

01:22:44

The notion that somehow a loving God owes everyone an equal chance at salvation seems to assume that the universe revolves around mankind, and thus the

01:22:56

God we imagine exists, must meet our specifications regarding fairness in order for us to validate him with our devotion.

01:23:07

Is this an accurate summation of the general outlook of Arminians and synergistic semi -Poagians?

01:23:15

If so, what would Brother Nichols suggest as to how to address this false understanding with our brothers and the lost alike?

01:23:23

If not, please educate me on a better way of understanding the situation. Thanks so much for sharpening us in Christian sanctification today.

01:23:32

Well I agree with the concern that the brother has mentioned. I think that his concern is well -founded, that it's wrong to think that God owes anybody anything.

01:23:45

The only thing that sinners deserve from God is hell. That's it. Anything else is grace.

01:23:53

Now, would you not agree that it's absurd, if you want to talk about a human understanding of fairness that men insist

01:24:04

God possess, it's absurd to think that all men, even if you remove the theological system of Calvinism out of the equation, it's absurd to think that God is being fair with mankind in the human understanding of fairness because there are people, millions of people throughout history who have never heard of the gospel and have perished in their sins.

01:24:28

And you also have people today and for centuries who have been born in either

01:24:34

Muslim homes where the idea of coming to Christ and becoming a

01:24:40

Christian would be not only putting their lives at risk but on certain occasions guaranteeing a death sentence upon them.

01:24:50

And you even have here in our own country, you have children born in the

01:24:55

Bible belt who are nurtured by Christian parents lovingly and accurately with the biblical truths of the scriptures.

01:25:04

And you have others that are abandoned orphans, perhaps others who have been raised by drug addicts and all kinds of unrepentant wicked individuals who never hear the gospel.

01:25:18

To say that this is like a fair playing ground, if you will, where we all have an equal opportunity to hear, understand the gospel, and to respond to it, isn't that absurd?

01:25:33

Well, it's certainly not true. It's obviously not true. And just as the caller said,

01:25:47

I would concur that it's clear that God does not owe sinners anything.

01:25:55

It's not a question of fairness. The whole issue of saying that God has to be fair according to what man says is fair, that whole issue is sadly mistaken and barking up the wrong tree.

01:26:08

Paul says, Nay, but O man, who are you to reply against God? God's not accountable to men. Men are accountable to God.

01:26:15

Amen. Sinners don't define justice for God. God defines justice for everybody. And they don't define justice and hold

01:26:22

God accountable to it and say, God, you know, you need to be fair with us. Nay, but O man, who do you think you are?

01:26:30

Who do you think you're talking to? Are you kidding me? God's not accountable to us.

01:26:36

We're accountable to him. And people say, Oh, I'll never submit to a God like that. No, not in this life.

01:26:42

You probably won't, but you're going to submit to him because on the day of judgment, every knee shall bow.

01:26:49

You can fight, you can make a stink, and you can call God unfair until you're blue in the face.

01:26:54

And you could do that forever in hell, but you're not going to change it. You're not going to control God. You're not going to throw him off his throne.

01:27:01

You're not going to define justice for God. You're not going to make God feel all bad that you think he's unfair. None of it's going to happen.

01:27:09

I mean, the whole discussion is, uh, you know, the question is how do you deal with it?

01:27:15

I think, and I just, my, I try to avoid getting in arguments with people or fighting with people.

01:27:23

To me, the best way to defuse things is not to try to get an argument. It's just to read scripture and to pray for people and read the

01:27:33

Bible to them. If they want to argue, read the Bible to them. Read the Bible to them if they're willing to let you do it.

01:27:39

If they say, I don't want to hear anything out of that book, I don't care what it says, okay. I mean, I don't know how much more you can do except pray for them then at that point.

01:27:46

Right. I, I did one, uh, somewhat humorous story is when a, uh, friend of mine,

01:27:53

I haven't heard or seen him in a long time, but, uh, our Arminian brother who got into a conversation with me about his opposition to Calvinism.

01:28:04

And I said, I want you to explain to me what your understanding of this is.

01:28:09

I opened up the Bible and I read Romans nine. He said to me, you see that, you see that, you know, who believes that the biggest, uh, false religion on the planet earth,

01:28:20

Islam believes that. And I said, excuse me, do you realize that I just read from the apostle Paul, uh,

01:28:27

Romans nine from the new Testament. He goes, yeah, yeah, I know, but it's what you read into it. I said, I didn't read anything into it.

01:28:33

I just read it. I didn't exegete it. I didn't explain it. I just read it. But it's interesting how that, uh, will make even some brethren in Christ recoil and discuss just by reading the very words that are

01:28:46

God breathed. I know it's true. I know what you just said is true.

01:28:52

I don't know that particular experience, but I've had similar experiences and you just read the, just read the

01:28:58

Bible rather than argue. And we're going to our final break right now. If anybody wants to join us now's the time to do it.

01:29:05

Uh, chrisarnson at gmail .com before we run out of time, C H R I S A R N Z E N gmail .com.

01:29:13

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Or go to batterydepot .com. That's batterydepot .com. Welcome back.

01:36:17

This is Chris Sorensen, and if you have just tuned us in, our guest has been for the last 90 minutes and will continue to be for the next 25 minutes.

01:36:27

Our guest is Greg Nichols, pastor of Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan, and we are discussing

01:36:34

God's love, indiscriminate or particular. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com,

01:36:42

chrisorensen at gmail .com. And I wanted to give a plug before I continue with our discussion with Pastor Greg.

01:36:50

I wanted to give a plug to Pastor Chris Powell of Covenant Baptist Church in Ontario, Canada, who wrote me a very encouraging letter explaining to me how some missionaries in Eastern Europe have discovered his congregation or the congregation where he pastors through Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:37:15

And some kind of a relationship has been developed between these missionaries and Covenant Baptist Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and also the

01:37:25

Reformed Baptist Network. And Pastor Greg, if you could explain to our listeners what the

01:37:31

Reformed Baptist Network is, because I know that you are a part of that. It's a group of churches, right now about between 25 and 30 of them, that are committed to work together to spread the gospel around the world.

01:37:48

Great, and if you want more information about Covenant Baptist Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, go to covenantbaptistchurch .com,

01:37:56

covenantbaptistchurch .com, and the pastor there, again, is Chris Powell.

01:38:02

So I'd like you to pick up basically where we left off,

01:38:08

Pastor Greg, and give a summary of what we have just been talking about, and then we could move on to anything that you want to conclude the program with before we run out of time.

01:38:19

Okay, we've been speaking about the love of God and the various ways that God expresses his love, and in particular we've been talking about a goodwill, a kindness that God has toward all of Noah's children alive on earth today, and how that relates to the special redemptive love that he has for those that he chose for salvation in Christ before the foundation of the world, and we've been speaking about how those things relate to each other, both in the accomplishment and application of redemption, and how that relates to the free offer of the gospel, what's commonly called the free offer of the gospel, and it showed how the

01:39:06

Bible teaches this, and how the canons of Dort reflect this.

01:39:12

There was just one other thing, Chris, and I thank you for the opportunity that I wanted to say about this, and about the different views that Christians have, and about my own personal attitude toward God's people in the light of it, and why

01:39:28

I feel the way I do. I think that the things that we're talking about, particularly the free offer of the gospel on the one hand, the well -intentioned, well -meant, indiscriminate offer of salvation to all men everywhere and every person, that coupled with the idea of sovereign grace, accomplishing salvation for the elect in Christ on the cross, applying salvation to the elect in conversion in the

01:39:58

Christian life, and to them alone, how those things fit together. There's a great mystery associated with it.

01:40:05

In fact, it's a mystery that can never be explained. It's a mystery that can never be fully reconciled with human logic.

01:40:14

This mystery involves what seems or appears to be, not in fact, but in appearance, a contradiction between the preceptive function, or God's revealed will, and the decretive function of God's will.

01:40:28

And there appears to be, or seems to be, a logical disconnect or contradiction between these two functions of God's will, and human logic can never resolve.

01:40:41

We have to just simply embrace everything that the scripture says about it, and believe both in the free, well -meant offer of the gospel, and also believe in sovereign, in the accomplishment and application of redemption, commonly called the limited atonement and the irresistible grace.

01:41:03

That's what we, we must embrace all of it, because scripture embraces all of it. So the sympathy that I have with people, there's one view of the whole subject that wants to hold on to the free offer of the gospel, and reject sovereign grace.

01:41:18

There's another view of this subject, another extreme view, that wants to hold on to sovereign grace, and reject the well -meant free offer of the gospel.

01:41:31

And the reason I'm sympathetic is because people try to put together views, they try to logically understand it, but this is a topic that's inherently mysterious, it can never be logically explained, logic has to take a lower place, we have to submit our minds to the revelation of God in his word, and I understand that that's difficult to do, to believe something that you can't explain, you can't really even understand how it all fits together, you just have to say, well

01:42:02

God clearly reveals in his word the free offer of the gospel, and he clearly reveals sovereign grace, and I have to embrace it.

01:42:10

In fact, this mystery is of the same order of mystery, an unsolved, an insoluble problem that's associated with the same seeming contradiction is associated with God's sovereignty over sin, and man's responsibility for sin.

01:42:25

It's the same level of inexplicable, unsolved, insoluble mystery, which gives me sympathy for people that struggle with this.

01:42:36

But there are two extreme views, and the one extreme can't embrace one half of this idea, and the other extreme can't embrace the other half.

01:42:45

So I say we have to embrace them both. The reason I wanted to read the Cairns of Dort, the

01:42:50

Five Points of Dominism, is I think that God gave those men grace and wisdom and humility actually to embrace both aspects, both the free offer of the gospel and sovereign grace.

01:43:03

It's beautiful walking the razor's edge of biblical balance and sensitivity to sound doctrine.

01:43:10

Amen. Now, one of the most frequent texts that I'm sure you would agree that Arminians or those who are non -reformed outside of the sphere of Calvinistic fellowship, 2

01:43:28

Peter chapter 3 verse 9, the Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

01:43:46

Now obviously the Arminian would say that Peter is speaking about Jesus Christ being desirous that every single human being will not perish in their sins and they will come to repentance, and then the

01:44:05

Reformed will say this is an eschatological account where number one,

01:44:11

Peter is speaking to his church, this is a letter that he wrote to a church, and he's speaking about the

01:44:17

Lord's return and that the Lord will not return until all of his elect have come to repentance, and of course there are probably views in between, you might even have a view in between, but isn't it true that if an

01:44:30

Arminian were to take this to mean every single individual, that even life itself disproves this, because Christ is not patient with every single person in regard to their coming to repentance.

01:44:44

We have teenagers snuffed out of life in the prime of their youth in a state of rebellion, and you have others who live to a hundred or more that die in their deathbeds coming to Christ, so therefore he is not equally patient with everybody.

01:45:05

I mean, how do you respond to this text? Okay, well, first of all, let's talk about the text and then let's talk about the tension, right?

01:45:14

First of all, the text. With regard to the text, I think my judgment, my study of that text in its context, indicates that what is being said there, what that text teaches, is that the reason that Christ has not come back yet is that he still has elect people to be saved, and that he is patient with his people with respect to conveying upon them all the blessings of the new covenant, that he's patient, that there's no fault in him or lack him regarding his promise, but it's his patience because of his commitment to bring all of his elect in every generation to repentance, that that is why he has not yet returned, and when all of the elect have been brought to repentance, then he will return.

01:46:12

There's nothing wrong with him, there's nothing wrong with his promise, but the reason for the delay of his return is that he has many people to bring to salvation in all the generations between now and his second coming, and he's patiently waiting until that's fulfilled.

01:46:30

That's what I think that text says. Yeah, I would agree with you, because as I was saying earlier, for you to apply that to every single individual, life itself disproves that.

01:46:42

You have people all the time perishing in their sins, even in the prime of their youth, that have not been given the same opportunity or have not had patience demonstrated toward them in the same way that a man who is 102 years old who comes to Christ on his deathbed.

01:47:02

Well, now I really want to make sure that you summarize what you most want to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go to any other listener questions.

01:47:15

Let me address the tension back to that text that I quoted in Ezekiel, and think of it in terms of the way the question was couched.

01:47:24

Look at this text. Have I pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord Jehovah, and not rather that he should return from his way and live?

01:47:35

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord Jehovah. Wherefore, turn yourselves and live.

01:47:45

Say to them, as I live, says the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

01:47:55

Turn you, turn you from your evil ways. That's repentance, isn't it? For why will you die in the house of Israel?

01:48:05

So do you feel the tension? Yes, definitely. And by the way,

01:48:12

I would assume that this understanding would apply to anyone's eschatological view out of the major views.

01:48:21

And my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, is a post -millennialist. Do you have a different interpretation of this? Well, am

01:48:28

I on? Yes. Okay. Yeah, well, actually, I have a different interpretation about what

01:48:35

Christ had in mind about his coming anyway, so. How would this disagree with or be out of place with a post -millennial view?

01:48:43

First of all, to answer in a soundbite isn't going to work, and you know, we haven't got that long on the program, and I don't want to end it on this note, but I'm simply saying that I have a different view.

01:48:54

I believe that the coming of Christ that was in view in the first century was the destruction of Jerusalem and, you know, the

01:49:03

Preterist viewpoint. So I would not apply this to eschatology of anything in our future yet.

01:49:09

So you would actually say that this is solely about those who were alive before the destruction of the

01:49:15

Temple. I'm a partial Preterist myself. I'm a non -millennialist, and I don't see how that is out of place with partial

01:49:21

Preterism. Well, I don't know where to begin.

01:49:27

That's the problem. Well, maybe we should pick it up in a future day. Yes, that's the thing, and we're trying to sum up. I'm just baffled why you would think that that is out of place with partial

01:49:35

Preterism. But anyway, going back to what we were discussing,

01:49:41

Pastor Greg, the love of God is abused, as we were discussing throughout this program.

01:49:48

It's abused on both ends of the spectrum, either an Arminian understanding or a hyper -Calvinist understanding.

01:49:56

And, of course, you have people in between who may be orthodox in their

01:50:01

Calvinism in many ways, but perhaps venture into the waters of hyper -Calvinism unconsciously.

01:50:09

What warning do you have specifically to our brethren who, not to say that Arminians are not our brethren, but our brethren who we have the most intense fellowship with, who are lovers of the

01:50:21

Doctrines of Grace, and perhaps those cage -stage Calvinists who are young in their understanding of Calvinism, and yet are perhaps zealous without knowledge, and they bash

01:50:36

Calvinism over the heads of those who disagree with it, and come to sometimes hyper -Calvinistic conclusions without studying the whole counsel of God?

01:50:45

What warning do you have for those that are more closely affiliated with our camp of Christian?

01:50:53

Well, I think that you're right to be concerned about that, and I think that it's a danger.

01:51:01

A long time ago, I had a tendency to that type of thing myself, and I read a book by Francis Schaeffer called

01:51:10

The Mark of the Christian, and I came under conviction of sin, because the mark of the

01:51:16

Christian is love, and by this will all men know that you're my disciples if you have love one for another.

01:51:22

And we need to love each other. All of us need to love each other, and we need to relate to our brothers, even those that disagree with us about certain aspects of how to relate all of these difficult questions together to what the

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Bible reveals. We have to relate to each other in love. We have to consider our testimony and walk humbly before God and lovingly toward all of our brothers.

01:51:53

And again, I guess the thing I would say is, don't think that you have to explain away all of the seeming contradictions that are found in the

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Bible. Don't approach text in the way that you don't like it.

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When other people do it, they try to explain away the clear meaning of the text. Don't do that, even if you can't logically explain how it all fits together.

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Embrace everything the Bible says, even if you can't fully explain it.

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I remember when I went through that as a young Christian, it was with this very issue. There was no way that I could illustrate the sincerity of the free offer of the gospel, and when

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I was a student in the academy back in, I think it was 1977 or 78,

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I was assigned to read in the Doctrine of Man, John Mary's book on the fall, and I was reading on the fall into sin, and he spoke about the three insoluble problems associated with the fall and the seeming contradiction in two functions of God's will regarding God's sovereignty over sin and man's responsibility for sin, and that the decree of will says sin will certainly happen, and the revealed will says

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I don't want you to sin, I don't like sin, I'm going to punish you if you sin, don't sin, and the decree says sin certainly will happen.

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He says you can't reconcile that, and the light went on, and I realized I was struggling with and wrestling with trying to illustrate the exact same type of problem.

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The decree says you will not repent, and Christ didn't die for you to save you, and I'm not going to regenerate you, and the revealed will says why will you die?

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I have no pleasure in your death. I want you to repent and turn to Christ.

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Repent. Believe. Turn. Turn. It's what I want. It's what pleases me, and the decree says it's not going to happen, and I realized

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I can never explain this, and then I said I don't have to explain it anymore.

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I just have to hold to the free offer of the gospel and sovereign grace, even though I can't explain it, and leave that with God, and just not try to explain away texts that don't fit with my logic, but embrace all that the

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Bible says, even though I can't explain it. Now perhaps if you could, in the time left to us, warn our

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Arminian brethren or those outside of the Calvinistic understanding of things about their perhaps haphazard use of the love of God towards any and every individual who has ever lived and who will ever live in the future.

01:54:49

Well, I guess what I would say to them is first of all, I love you as a brother in Christ, and I don't believe that you would really seriously in your heart want to damage someone's soul or contribute to their ruin, and yet if you mislead people and tell people things about God that aren't true and give to them a false comfort when you're comforting those that He has not comforted, and you're not warning them that you should be warning,

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I'm sure you don't really want to do that, and you don't want to contribute to the hardening of someone. So sometimes it's better to be honest with people than to be popular with them.

01:55:38

Yes, and I think that actually falls into line with what our brother

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Gordon, or Gordy I should say, in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania had to say, that there are people who become very pragmatic in their approach to evangelism because if they believe that it is possible for any human being to come to repentance and faith in Christ and be saved, they may more likely want to appeal to the emotion or other things that will trigger a response that you and I and other

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Reformed Christians might view as someone coming to a religious experience to receive the benefits of religion, but there is no transformation that has genuinely taken place in their lives and hearts.

01:56:30

Yeah, but the other thing I would say is, look, please brothers and sisters, don't feel that you have to justify and defend

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God, but God is quite capable of handling himself, and just remember that the fear of man brings a snare, but who so puts his trust in the

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Lord will be safe, and God is not accountable to people, but people are accountable to God.

01:57:03

Yes, in fact, Reverend Buzz has something to say. Well, I just wanted to add, you know, rewording what he just said,

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I always tell people God has no bloopers. That's right, and it's interesting that our fundamentalist brethren who might be anti -Calvinist when they are claiming that we distort, diminish, or twist, or exterminate the genuine love of God in the way that we understand him and preach and proclaim to others, they have to remember that even their own understanding of hell, because obviously most fundamentalists, if not every one of them, believes passionately in the existence of hell, they have the same kind of dilemma when it comes to explaining the love of God.

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In fact, those that are believers in conditional immortality or annihilationism would have the same problem with them about their believing in a

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God of love that still nonetheless sends people to hell. At least we understand as Calvinists that there is a different kind of love that he has for those who are truly his elect, truly his bride, truly his children, right?

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Yes, I think what you just said there is a very good point, and that's another thing that I think, in terms of your previous question, is don't downplay the truth of the wrath of God and the danger that people face of going to hell and the horrible realities of hell.

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Don't downplay that truth, even though it's popular, you know, when you talk about God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, the whole thing seems to be to emphasize nice fuzzy stuff, whereas the gospel that Paul preached actually begins with the wrath of God revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and righteousness of men.

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Wrath, sin, the problem. Don't downplay, misconstrue, or worse, leave out the real issue of God's wrath against human sin because it's not popular.

01:59:28

And we are out of time, brother, and I know your website for Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids is girbc .org,

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g -i for Grace Emanuel, r -b -c for Reformed Baptist Church, dot org, g -i -r -b -c dot org.

01:59:42

Thank you so much, Pastor Greg, if you could hold on so we could schedule another interview with you. Thank you very much, it was a privilege to be with you both again, thank you so much.

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Thank you, and I hope everybody always remembers for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater