July 17, 2017 Show with Greg Nichols on “God’s Love: Indiscriminate or Particular?”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on the

17th day of July 2017, and it's my honor and privilege and joy to

have back on the program someone who is definitely one of my favorite guests, Greg Nichols, who is

one of three pastors at Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan,

and he is the author, among other things, Lectures in Systematic Theology, and

I believe the first two volumes are out now.

I know for certain that the first one is, and we'll be hearing more about that series, and

today we are addressing one of the most controversial issues that divides the body of Christ,

and that's an understanding of God's love.

Is God's love indiscriminate or particular?

And if you have any questions about that issue for Pastor Greg Nichols, our email address is ChrisArnton at

gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and it's my honor and privilege to

welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Greg Nichols.

I'm sorry, brother, we had you on.

Mute accidentally.

You want to repeat that?

Great, and in studio

with me is the Reverend Buzz Taylor,.

Who's my co -host today.

Hello again, and by the way, don't feel bad about that, Greg.

He also.

Keeps my mic turned on a lot.

And there are very important reasons for that, but anyway.

Before we go into the subject at hand, God's love, tell us

something about Grace Emanuel Orphan Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

I know that I've asked you to explain and describe your church before,

but it seems, Pastor Greg, that every day I'm

getting emails from listeners, new listeners, who are discovering the program for the

first time, who have fallen in love with it, and so there may be many people that have never heard you before on this

program and don't know anything about Grace Emanuel Orphan Baptist Church.

So if you could describe this congregation.

For our listeners.

We do have, as

you said,

300 folks on a Sunday morning, 150 on a Sunday night,

people that love the Lord, mixed group of people, various backgrounds,

ethnic makeup.

And tell us about the lectures and systematic theology that you have written and

also are in the process of writing, and how many volumes you intend to eventually produce.

Oh, okay.

With regard to that, it's been my stewardship to teach systematic theology,

1970 Reformed Baptist

Seminary, and

Bill

Beeky's

publishing.

And then the second volume is the Doctrine of Man, and that volume

should be out, reformatting it into a

six -by -nine format.

Great.

And I know

any volumes.

I hope if I live long enough to complete it, God willing,

we hope to have seven volumes, the Doctrines of God, of the Church,

of the Christian life.

Well, if anybody wants further updates on the volumes that are already

available and those that are going to be published in the future, God willing,

go to solid -ground -books .com.

That's the website for Solid Ground

Christian Books, one of the sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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frequently purchasing books from Solid Ground Christian Books.

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myself and my guest, Pastor Greg Nichols, he was recently

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I'm happy to hear that.

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program.

Well, as you know, Pastor Greg, we are talking about something that divides, brothers in

Christ, an issue that is central to the Christian

gospel.

It's essential to Christian theology.

It's essential to the core message of the Bible itself from cover to

cover, and that is God's love.

And we have titled this discussion God's Love, Indiscriminate

or Particular, where we would believe that those

who are outside of the doctrines of sovereign grace, outside of reform theology or Calvinism,

however you want to nickname that, you have those who basically

says that God loves every single human that has ever lived,

and whoever will live, identically.

We are all loved equally in the same way by God.

And, of course, there may be some differences amongst even those outside of Calvinism, how they

would explain that.

And then you have, on the other extreme, those from our camp who are theologically

reformed, who would accurately quote from the

Apostle Paul in Romans 9 that Jacob God loved, but Esau he hated,

but they will leave it there without any further explanation and without taking into consideration the

whole counsel of God.

And basically what we're doing here today is having you give us a broader picture of what the

love of God is and how that is demonstrated and so on.

So I understand that you believe that there are basically three different aspects of

God's love that we should be discussing today.

Yes, as I was saying to you before, a general love that God,

he has a

special people

that he redeemed

from Egypt, which is why I use redemptive, and because it's a

social love that.

He has.

And well, let's start with the general love that God has.

There are even Calvinists who disagree with one another

as to what the Gospel of John is really talking about

when John says that God so loved the world that he gave

his only begotten son, that whoever so believeth shall have eternal

life.

When John is referring to this love of the world,

there are even Calvinists who say he's speaking about every individual.

There are others that say no, he's only talking about those who are out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

But is this in reference to the general love, or is this specifically about

those for whom he died?

Well, like you say, that text is a controversial text.

I think the general idea that God loves,

that is brought out by Warfield, and by using the word

world, is that God has love for sinners.

He has love for sinners from every kindred, tribe, and tongue.

That is love in

bringing them out of

God loves.

I think probably most people would agree on that.

So I'd like to just leave that one there, that God loves

sinners.

And as far as the general love that you believe exists,.

That God demonstrates, even the fact that his

blessings reign upon the just and the unjust, that we are all

not on this planet going through misery

and starvation and persecution in an equal measure all over this world,

and even the reprobates that

exist on this planet, men and women and children that we don't know and will never know, perhaps on this earth,

that they are reprobates, unless we know for certain that they die without Christ.

But even they have received many blessings from God.

The fact that they are still living and have air in their lungs and a beating heart is a sign of that.

But if you could go on further.

With your explanation of that.

Okay.

Let me just say one thing, and

it is this.

It's a logical question, and I'm not really a

polemicist, but my focus is on systematic theology

that pertains to and opens up

comprehensively the major themes.

The themes of the book, to my

judgment, especially

relate

to this question of

God's reality

and the doctrine of

God, the sovereignty of God.

Then the second

aspect of

it, though it's an

aspect of God's goodness,

and I open up God's goodness in the doctrine, the

other aspect,

and love,

the doctrine

of man, and some have objection to the term grace, but I call

it common grace, but I'm referring to God's common favor or kindness,

and God

multiply

and

replenish

the earth and subdue it.

And yet in Genesis chapter 9, after Noah and his son,

and we are on

earth today, belong to that fame,

alive on earth today, his favor that he shows to

us in the light of our relationship to our ancestor Noah, and he says to Noah and to his

son, so this involves us, and God blessed them, same as

to Adam and Eve, and God blessed them, be fruitful,

replenish the earth, same blessing,

comment, that same word, that same idea, blessing,

because we are Noah's children, we enter in to that favor that is common to

the

foundation of.

Well, now, since you've established.

That there is a degree of love or an aspect of love, a kind of love that God has

for all of his creation and all of humanity, there obviously must be a distinction, because

he obviously does not love everyone equally as a father

loves a child or as a husband loves his bride.

Those two aspects of his love appear from the scriptures to be uniquely and.

Solely for his church, for his elect, am I right?

Yes, I agree with your comment, but if I may, let me first explain to

you the reason that

I think

the Lord Jesus'

terminology, he

uses,

you have heard, as you have heard that verse 43 -45, you shall

love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you, and here's the word,

love, and why should you do that?

The sons of your who is in heaven.

So in other words, we should love our end so that we may be like, that we may

reflect to be sons of, and

how does our father love his enemies?

Then he says, he makes his son to rise on the evil and on the good,

and he sends pain on the just and on the unjust.

So he's talking about all Noah's children, and he blesses them with life, sunshine, with rain,

with the provisions for life, sustenance of life.

He gives to all life and breath and all things, and he does that

even for his enemy.

And we, like he loved his enemies, should love our enemies

and be sons of our father.

And then again, in Luke chapter 6, verse 35 and 36, he says this, but love

your enemies, for your reward

will be great.

You will be sons of the most high.

Again, when we love our enemies, we've been added.

And then he says, for he is kind

for the unthankful and evil, even as

your father is in the context, the

word that he uses for kind, the word that he uses for

love, and that may be a little too detailed, but the point is, Jesus is very clear in

expressing the fact that when God blesses all Noah's descendants alive on earth today

with life and breath and all things and sunshine and rain out of kind, out

of love and explicit,

we're justified in using the word love to

his creatures and all.

Yes, just like we are supposed to, we are commanded to love our neighbor, but

we are not supposed to love other women as we love our wives.

Obviously that would not only be wrong, but it would be a damnable sin.

So there is a distinction between the different aspects of love, but

it's nonetheless still love that we are to demonstrate, just as.

God does.

Yes, that you're raised there.

Certainly we would not be setting up what love means.

You love your enemy, love your wife,

and love for all this love that God

has for enemies.

It involves good.

We mustn't

think that it means that God, not a love of delight,

where it says that the wicked and him that loves violence, his soul hate.

He doesn't delight in the wicked he hates.

And yet at the same time, he has benevolent kindness.

And in that, what

are you saying then?

You're saying he loves them and hates them at the same time?

Yes.

I'm saying in the sense of delight, he doesn't delight in them, but he detests them.

And yet at the same time, he has goodwill for them.

And Jesus uses the word love in that sense in those texts.

Now, there is obviously also a distinction between the unique

particular love that he has for his elect, his church, as opposed to the love

that he generally has for all of humanity, because the love for his elect is permanent, is it not?

Obviously, if hell exists, and if hell will be inhabited by people, that

love that he had for mankind in general could.

Not be a permanent and eternal love.

That common grace has limits.

And what is the second aspect out of the three different kinds of love?

I'm just going to open that up for you, okay?

Okay, great.

Let me just, in summary, in a general sense, God's love is

his unselfish, and there are

three, it's his unselfish and generosity

as creator that he has for all creatures.

Even it's the

unselfish goodwill and generosity that he has for the people that

he redeemed from Abraham's physical descendants.

And that involves a special affection for them, a unique

attack, and an irrevocable

commitment to

benefit the redemption from Egypt.

But then there's the unselfish and generosity that he

has as the redeemer of his people in Christ, that he redeems from sin and

wrath.

And this is a delighted

and irrevocable resolve to bless

with the unconditioned, and

therefore

in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens.

And this embrace, so

that's

how I relate

those little redemptive

experiences.

And then there's that

special redemptive love that is a special...

The Reverend Buzz

Taylor has something to ask you.

Or say.

So how would this affect our witness as far as talking to the lost and saying,

well, for example, God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, that kind of an approach.

To sinners?

Well, yeah, I understand that, I guess, but it

depends on what you mean by love.

And what you mean by plan.

That certainly can't be wonderful for everybody.

Well, I didn't write that statement, that was Bill Branson.

And the way that it's more typically used today is,

God loves you and died for you.

And that is being used in an indiscriminate way to everyone, regardless of

whether they are Christians or not.

Obviously, a Christian needs to be reminded of that on occasion, that God loves you and died for you, if they are

going through some kind of trial or something.

But to indiscriminately walk up to people that you don't even know, who might even be demonstrating

hostility to the gospel, to say to them, God loves you and died for you.

Isn't that wrong?

I mean, there's nowhere in Scripture where you see.

A Christian telling an unbeliever that.

Well, what you gentlemen are raising now has to do with, okay, I've given you the

concept of love, right?

Now, how does that apply to the accomplishment of redemption, and

how do you relate that general affection, or not affection, sorry, that

general, and

does that relate to the accomplishment of redemption in Christ's death?

And then, the second thing related to it, how does it apply to the application of

redemption through the gospel?

Which would have to do with the free offer, and regeneration, and free offer, and the

design of the death of Christ.

So, those are questions that we can get into, but those are pretty big subjects and topics, and

I have no problem trying to address.

Them, because we've got some time here.

Yeah, you can address them right when we come...

The answer to those questions in perspective, that's where those questions...

Yeah, you can address them when we return from our station break right now, and if anybody else would like to join us, we do

have several people already waiting to have their questions asked, and answered by you, Pastor Greg, but if anybody else would like to join them,

our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at

gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Pastor Greg Nichols and the love of

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is Greg

Nichols, pastor of Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, an

author of lectures in systematic theology with seven volumes

planned to be in that set with two already written and at least one published.

Have the first two already been.

Published or is it just the first?

Second is in the process of being published.

Hopefully, God willing, would be published by Christmas of 2017.

Right.

And you could go to solid -ground -books .com.

To order those.

And we are discussing today God's love, indiscriminate or particular.

And before the break, you were about to address the common evangelistic

method of informing people, no matter who they are, no matter how much they either love

or hate the gospel of Jesus Christ, that God loves them and died for them, or Christ

loves them and died for them.

Saying that the general idea of God's love and

how it

has these three, does it

apply to the application?

If I may, I would like to read from a document, not the

Bible, but a document.

Because we are talking about doctrine.

As long as it's not the Book of Mormon or the Pearl

of Grace Great Price.

No, it's not that.

Sorry about that.

I think that's another program, brother.

This was published in

the 1600s, 1719.

It's called the Canons

of Redemption and

Visible

Balance.

It's five points of the Arminian Remonstrance.

Chapter one is the plan of redemption.

Chapter two, the accomplishment of redemption.

Chapter three, the application

of redemption

applied

completely.

Under the

second,

read

all of it.

This is the promise

of the

shall not perish, but have everlasting

promise

and published to all nations and,

and without

distinction whom God

out of his

good pleasure sends the gospel.

As many who are called by the gospel do not repent

owing to any defect by

Christ upon the cross to themselves.

Article seven, but as many as truly believe,

save from sin,

indebted

solely to the grace of God, given

them in Christ from everlasting and not to any merit

of their published

without description promise

published.

And if people reject that, the reason they rejected is not

due to believe it.

The credit is not due to any merit.

Amen.

And this is now, now,

then let me get to what they say about, that's what they talk about with regard to the gospel.

Then with regard to the death of Christ, that is described in article

eight of Christ,

the length of the will of God,

that Christ by the blood of the cross,

people, tribe, nation, and language,

eternity chosen to salvation and given to him

design intent, the will of God with regard to the

redeem, all the

elect, and

then from all sin and that he

should free from sin to the enjoyment of

glory forever.

I'm taking just the major heads of it.

There's a whole lot more words in there.

That's of Christ.

This was God's will.

God's will was that he would redeem the elect

from all their sins and bring them to glory.

That's why Christ died.

That's God's will.

Then they say in the final article,

article

nine,

this

purpose done.

This is what will

indescribably

redeeming.

Now, again, we could go into biblical testimony to support that.

This is why Christ died, redeem us

from all in

that paragraph.

Amen.

And by the way, I want to give a quick plug.

To chapel library, because if you want to order the canons of Dort in a very

attractive form, it is so inexpensive.

In fact, I don't even think they require a payment.

You'll have to ask them how they work out those payment arrangements.

But I know that there are occasions where you get these for free, if not for a very, very minimal

cost.

But the canons of Dort are available through chapel library, and the website is chapellibrary .org,

chapellibrary .org.

It's a very brief, attractive booklet.

And you could order these for the tract rack in your church.

You could give them out, as we were saying before, promiscuously

to all those whom you know.

And it's an excellent little volume.

Now, going back to what we were saying, to perhaps correct the

language of our Arminian and non -reformed friends who

desperately want to continue telling every single person that Jesus loves you

and died for you, would it not be more biblically correct to tell people

that Jesus loves sinners and paid the price for their sins on

Calvary, but not being specific as to the person that you're talking to?

Because that person may be heading for hell and may wind up there.

When that statement, if you tell everyone willy -nilly indiscriminately that Jesus

died for them, then therefore you would be lying to them.

If they wind up in hell.

Am I not right?

Yes.

I think that saying that Jesus died for you is saying more than we know.

Right.

When we're talking to people...

You know, and in fact, I can recall as a lost person, as a lost teenager,

I can recall when my brother, who had become a born -again Christian, and I can recall other people who I was

eventually beginning to meet the older I got in my teen years who were born again,

because when I was a child, I don't recall meeting anybody that was a born -again Christian who was evangelizing me.

But when I was getting older, I was hearing that phrase presented to me, Jesus loves you and died

for you.

I remember taking a certain amount of comfort in that proclamation

not to change.

You know, why would you need to repent?

Jesus loves me.

He died for me.

If he died for me, that means my sins have been paid for.

Well, thanks.

Thanks for that information.

Now let me get back to my barstool.

You know what I mean?

I mean, there seems to be no.

Real reason for anybody to repent if that statement is true.

Can I now go to the issue of the application of redemption?

Yes, go to whatever you'd like to go to.

Well, you know, I want to be considerate.

I want to go to what the Canons of Dort have to say about that.

Now, this is under

the third chapter.

Actually, total depravity is often presented as tulip.

The way the Canons of Dort actually presents it is the

unconditional election, that they go to limited total

depravity, and there is application

of redemption to sinners that are in and unable to

rest.

And so they start, and then

of course they again mention the gospel being preached to those that are dead in

their sins.

And this is what they say with regard to that.

Regeneration and

regeneration, just like they relate the proclamation of the gospel,

and in

art of

many, as are called by the gospel, unfeignedly

called.

So it's not just permitted.

Unfeignedly, as many

as are called by the gospel, are unfeignedly called.

And here is where the Canons of Dort address the issue of the so -called well -meant,

well -intentioned, sincere, unfeigned offer of the gospel.

It's not just indiscriminate.

It's unfeigned.

Many as are called by the gospel are unfeignedly called, for God has most

earnestly and truly declared in his word what will be

acceptable to him.

Namely, that all who are called should

comply with the invitation.

This is what God finds acceptable.

This is what pleases him.

This is what he wants.

This is what he unfeignedly desires.

I mean, this is strong language, Chris.

As many as are called by the gospel are unfeignedly called, for God has most

earnestly and truly declared in his word what will be acceptable to him.

Namely, that all who are called should comply with his invitation.

And moreover, seriously, eternal life

and rest to as many as shall come to him and believe on him.

So, you're offering the gospel.

You're telling sinners, repel his disposition.

He really means it.

He seriously promises, all in a state of sin, that if they come to Jesus, they

will be saved.

He unfeignedly calls them, because he is pleased with, it's acceptable to

him, that they would comply with the call.

Then he goes, now again, then

they have to go back, well, people don't comply.

What about that?

It is not the fault of the gospel, nor of Christ offered therein, nor of

God, who calls men by the gospel,

those who are called by the ministry of the word refuse to come and be converted.

The fault lies in themselves.

And then it goes on to underscore again, that if you do believe, it's because it's all

of grace.

And then the reality of regeneration,

generating work of God, creating faith in the hearts of that

enables them to comply.

And that he works this special regenerative work only in the elect,

even though he unfeignedly calls all the hearers of the gospel, he

sovereignly regenerates only.

Now, could that be expressed in Matthew 23, 37, where

Jesus says, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to

her.

How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her

wings, and you were unwilling.

Is that kind of a summary of what you've said through Jesus's own words?

Yes, when I address the issue of God's perspective, 14 of

Doctrine of God context, and I give my reasons there, and I'd be willing to

do that in a minute, very thing.

I know there are some people that say that Christ is only speaking as a man, but I

feel like...

Yeah, we have to go to another break right now, so you can address it when we return.

All right.

Do you have time for me to read the statement on regeneration or not?

Not right now, because we have to go to a break, but you can read it when we come back.

This is our elongated break that we have to do to comply with Grace Life Radio in Lake

City, Florida.

They require a 12 -minute break between our two segments, so we will be back after these

messages with more of Pastor Greg Nichols and God's love, so please don't

go away.

Okay.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Greg Nichols, pastor of Grace Emanuel

Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the author of the Lectures in Systematic

Theology.

The first of which is already in print.

The second of which is due before Christmas.

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Today we are addressing God's love, indiscriminate or particular.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And before I return to our discussion with Pastor Greg Nichols, I have some announcements to make from some of our

sponsors.

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click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

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to Atlanta, Georgia.

I plan to be there with an exhibitors booth, as I do with some of our other events that I just mentioned.

This is being held from the 17th through the 20th in Atlanta, Georgia.

The 17th is exclusively a Spanish -speaking version of the G3 conference, and the 18th

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please, please, please let them know that you heard about the events from Chris Arnzen on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

And now I have to do that unpleasant task that is grub money from you.

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That's also the email address that you can use to send us a question for Pastor Greg

Nichols, my guest today, pastor of Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, who

is discussing God's love, indiscriminate or particular.

And once again, that email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Pastor Greg, before we went to the break, you had something that you wanted to read, and we had to cut away because we were

right at that time when we had to depart for our station.

Break.

Okay, thank you.

I just wanted to read

what it says about regeneration.

It's a more

working version.

He not only causes the gospel to

powerfully and discern the

things of the Spirit of God, but by the efficacy of the same

regenerating spirit in most recesses

of, and then it goes on to describe how he opens

the closed and

forms the will, on

the one

hand, to

free

off

of

the gospel,

the sovereign grace in the application of redemption, regenerating God's elect, and only God's

elect.

Amen.

Amen.

And may I add, or should I ask you, does this not

also include with it the necessary consequence that those

who are reprobate, those who are going to deny and reject and oppose

the true Christ of Scripture and his true gospel till their dying breath,

that this proclamation to them is also going to add further condemnation upon their

heads as they continue to obstinately and defiantly

reject what Romans 1 says that they deep down in their hearts already know

to be true, but suppress that knowledge.

Jesus said that when he said it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah

if the mighty works that were done in you were done there.

You also asked

about

the gospel, and I believe it is,

like,

do I have any, and

not rather,

turn yourself,

no pleasure in it,

and live, turn you, turn you from your evil ways, for

why will you die,

fainted,

would

I?

How often did I will.

Who have gathered your church

to gather you

to some people,

speaking here as a man,

an entire era of

redemptive

history.

That is pre -incarnate state, he wanted this, you're saying.

Yeah, he always wanted this, how often I would have gathered your children together.

He's talking to the entire, about the entire era of,

he's not speaking for God,

and therefore he is expressing how

often, not

speaking just as a mere man, the context.

Well, we have a bunch of questioners for you, if I could start to have their questions asked so we don't

run out of time before we get to any of them.

We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, What role, if any, do

you believe the idea of a universal atonement has played in the

explosion of pragmatic approaches to evangelism?

Doesn't this mindset basically lead to a coercive, two coercive actions on the

part of the believer in order to induce a decision for Christ?

Excellent question, though.

We very often see people who are Christians at crusades and other events manipulating

emotionally those in the audience who are attempting to.

If you could respond to that.

Concern,

it may be related to the

idea of a universal atonement, and that's

with the idea

that, and that

it's

through a

sovereign

mainstay, glory

to God.

So if I

can get

them

their

mouth

technique, and

now that

may

hold,

but I'm

not

saying it is.

Well, thank you, Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

And please keep listening to the program and spreading the word about it in Mechanicsburg,

Pennsylvania and beyond.

And let's see here.

We have some more questions.

Brandon in Franklinton, North Carolina says, Would you

mind asking Pastor Nichols for his opinion on A .W. Pink's view of God's love?

It is my understanding that Pink believes God is totally devoid of any love for the non

-elect.

Was this, in fact, Pink's view?

If so, could you provide an assessment of how he might have arrived at his position?

Well, I think those are good questions.

I just, I'm sorry there's no answer to them.

I'm not qualified to address that.

I'm sorry.

Well, one thing that you can say, though, there is disagreement amongst those that profess to be Calvinists who would come from that

approach, that they would just take the black and white explanation

that Paul gives in Romans 9, Jacob I loved and Esau I hated, and they just leave it there.

That there's nothing in between the intense

love, parental and spousal love of God for his elect and the

burning hatred for the reprobate.

There's nothing else needed to be explained.

I'm sure you would admit that there are Calvinists who view things that way.

Let me say this on that question.

This is the second time in this conversation that that distinction has come up, and I thought about it then,

and I want

to say

that, and

the one

that you're

talking about now, I wouldn't call that Calvinist.

I would call that hyper -Calvinist.

I think that's a hyper -Calvinist view.

Right, and of course, there are those that I have met that

are, in many ways, traditional historic Calvinists, but who

have occasion to speak and behave as hyper -Calvinists.

In other words, their whole system of theology is not hyper -Calvinist.

Okay, with regard to this issue and topic we're talking about, there

are

two extremes.

And we have, oh, by the way, thank you, Brandon, and keep spreading the word about the program in North

Carolina and beyond.

We have Joe in Slovenia who says, Dear Brother Chris, thanks for

continuing to deal head on with the most challenging topics in Christ's church today.

My question today deals with the objection that I hear in regard to God's sovereign

election.

The notion that somehow a loving God owes everyone an equal chance

at salvation seems to assume that the universe revolves around mankind, and thus

the God we imagine exists must meet our specifications regarding

fairness in order for us to validate him with our devotion.

Is this an accurate summation of the general outlook of Arminians and synergistic

semi -Poagians?

If so, what would Brother Nichols suggest as to how to address this false understanding with our

brothers and the lost alike?

If not, please educate me on a better way of understanding the situation.

Thanks so much for sharpening us in Christian sanctification today.

I agree with the concern that the brothers mentioned.

Anything else?

Now, would you not agree that it's absurd, if you want to talk about a

human understanding of fairness that men insist God possess,

it's absurd to think that all men, even if you remove the theological

system of Calvinism out of the equation, it's absurd to think that God is being fair with

mankind in the human understanding of fairness because there are people, millions of people throughout

history who have never heard of the gospel and have perished in their sins.

And you also have people today and for centuries who have been born in either

Muslim homes where the idea of coming to Christ and becoming a

Christian would be not only putting their lives at risk but on certain occasions

guaranteeing a death sentence upon them.

And you even have here in our own country, you have children born in the Bible

belt who are nurtured by Christian parents lovingly and accurately

with the biblical truths of the scriptures and you have others that are

abandoned orphans, who perhaps others who have been raised by drug addicts and

all kinds of unrepentant wicked individuals who never hear the gospel.

To say that this is like a fair playing ground, if you will, where we all have equal

opportunity to hear, understand the gospel and to respond

to it, isn't that absurd?

It's obviously not true for

sure that God does not owe

the whole issue of saying that God

has to be

picking up the wrong tree.

Paul says nay but oh man who are you to reply against God?

God's not accountable to men, men are accountable to God.

Amen.

Sinners don't define justice for God, God defines justice for it

and hold God accountable to it.

You need to be fair with them.

Who do you think you are?

Who do you think you're talking?

Are you kidding me?

God's not accountable to us, we're accountable to him and people say I'll never submit to a God like that.

No, not in this life.

You probably won't but you're going to submit to him because on the day of judgment every knee shall bow.

Amen.

You can fight, you can make a stink and you can call God unfair until you're blue in the face and you could do

that forever in hell.

You're not going to change it, you're not going to control God, you're not going to throw him off his throne, you're not going to define justice for God,

you're not going to make God feel all bad that you think he's unfair.

None of it's going to happen.

I mean the whole discussion, you know the question I

just might, I try to avoid getting in arguments with people or fighting with people.

To me the best way to defuse things is not to try to get in

arguments and read the Bible to them.

If they want to argue, read the Bible to them.

Read the Bible to them.

There's so much.

More you can do.

Right, I had one somewhat humorous story

is when a friend of mine, I haven't heard or seen him in a long time, but

an Armenian brother who got into a conversation with me about his

opposition to Calvinism and I said I want you to explain to me what your

understanding of this is.

I opened up the Bible and I read Romans 9.

He said to me, you see that?

You see that?

You know who believes that?

The biggest false religion on the planet earth, Islam, believes that.

And I said excuse me, do you realize that I just read from the Apostle Paul Romans 9

from the New Testament?

He goes yeah yeah I know but it's what you read into it.

I said I didn't read anything into it, I just read it.

I didn't exegete it, I didn't explain it, I just read it.

But it's interesting how that will make even some brethren in Christ recoil and

disgust just by reading the very words.

That are God -breathed.

I know it's true.

I know what you just said is true.

I don't know that particular experience but I've had similar.

And we're going to our final break right now.

If anybody wants to join us, now's the time to do it.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Before we run out of time, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Pastor Greg Nichols right after these words from our

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Sorensen.

And if you have just tuned us in, our guest has been for the last 90 minutes and will continue to be

for the next 25 minutes.

Our guest is Greg Nichols, pastor of Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan.

And we are discussing God's love, indiscriminate or particular.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com.

Chrisorensen at gmail .com.

And I wanted to give a plug before I continue with our discussion with Pastor Greg.

I wanted to give a plug to Pastor Chris Powell of Covenant

Baptist Church in Ontario, Canada, who wrote me a very encouraging letter

explaining to me how some missionaries in Eastern Europe have

discovered his congregation or the congregation where he pastors through Iron Sharpens Iron

radio.

And some kind of a relationship has been developed between these missionaries and Covenant

Baptist Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and also the Reformed Baptist Network.

And Pastor Greg, if you could explain to our listeners what the Reformed Baptist Network is, because I

know that you are a part of that.

Right now about between 25 and 30 of them.

Great.

And if you want more information about Covenant Baptist Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, go to

covenantbaptistchurch .com.

Covenantbaptistchurch .com.

And the pastor there again is Chris Powell.

So I'd like you to pick up basically where we left off, Pastor Greg, and give a

summary of what we have just been talking about.

And then we could move on to anything that you want to conclude the program with before we run out of

time.

About the various ways

that a goodwill that God has

toward and how that relates to the special redemptive

love of the world.

And, and,

and how that relates to

commonly called the free or how the Bible

reflect this.

There was just

my own and why

I, I think that the thing for you offer the

gospel on the one hand offer

of salvation to all men everywhere and every person, the

idea of

Christian life

and to

them

alone, how

those things,

a

mystery that

logic and God's will

and human logic can never resolve, embrace everything that the scripture

says about it and

believe both of

the

gospel of grace

and reject

free offer of

the gospel.

The reason I'm sympathetic is because people try

to logic is

inherently mysterious.

It can never be logically explained.

Logic has to take a lower place in his word.

And I

understand the free offer of

the God.

In fact, this mystery is of the same order of

mystery and unsolved insoluble problem that's associated with the same seeming

contradiction.

There are

two extremes

and the one extreme

can embrace one half of this idea and the other, we have to

embrace them both.

The reason I wanted

to read is I

think that.

Amen.

Now, one

of the most frequent texts that I'm sure you would agree.

That are minions or those who are non reformed outside of the

sphere of Calvinistic fellowship, second Peter chapter three, verse nine,

the Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness,

but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish, but

for all to come to repentance.

Now, obviously, the Armenian would say that Peter is speaking about

Jesus Christ, being desirous that every single

human being will not perish in their sins and they will come to repentance.

And then the reformed will say that this is an eschatological account where number one, Peter is

speaking to his church.

This is a letter that he wrote to a church.

And he's speaking about the Lord's return.

Oh, and that the Lord will not return until all of his elect have come to repentance.

And of course, there are probably views in between, you might even have a view in between.

But isn't it true that if an Armenian were to take this to mean every

single individual, that even life itself disproves this, because Christ is

not patient with every single person in regard to their coming to repentance, we have

teenagers snuffed out of life in the prime of their youth

in a state of rebellion, and you have others who live to a hundred or more

that die in their deathbeds coming to Christ.

So therefore, he is not equally patient with everybody.

I mean,.

How do you respond to this text?

The text, and then let's talk about the tension, right?

With regard to the text, I think my judgment, my study of that text in its context,

indicates that

it does not come

back, and that he

is patient with respect to conveying upon them all the

blessings of the new covenant,

his promise.

But it's his patience, because of his commitment to bring all of his elect in every

generation to repentance, that that is right, he has not yet returned.

And when all of the elect have been brought to repentance, then he will return.

There's nothing wrong with him, there's nothing wrong with his promise, but the reason for the delay of his return is that he

has many people to bring to salvation in all the generations between now and his second coming,

and he's patiently waiting until that's fulfilled.

That's what I think that...

Yeah, I would agree with you, because as I was saying earlier, for you to apply that to every single

individual, life itself disproves that.

You have people all the time perishing in their sins, even in the prime of their

youth, that have not been given the same opportunity, or have not had patience demonstrated toward

them in the same way that a man who is 102 years old who comes to Christ on his deathbed.

Well, now I really want to make sure that you summarize what you most want

to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go to any other listener.

Questions.

Let me address

the tension, and think

of it, and not rather that he should return from his way.

I have no pleasure in the death of him.

Wherefore, turn yourselves and live.

Say to them, as I live, says the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that

the wicked turn his way and live.

Turn you, turn you from your evil ways.

That's repentance, isn't it?

For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Yes, definitely.

And by the way, I would assume that.

This understanding would apply to anyone's

eschatological view out of the major views of my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, as a post -millennialist.

Do you have a different.

Interpretation of this?

Well, am I on?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, well, actually, I have a different interpretation about what Christ had in mind about his coming anyway.

How would this disagree with or be out of place with a post -millennial view?

First of all, to answer in a soundbite isn't going to work, and we haven't got that long on the program, and I don't want to

end it on this note, but I'm simply saying that I have a different view.

I believe that the coming of Christ that was in view in the first century was

the destruction of Jerusalem and, you know, the preterist viewpoint.

So I would not apply this to eschatology of anything in our future yet.

So you would actually say that this is solely about those who were alive before the destruction of the

temple.

I'm a partial preterist myself.

I'm a non -millennialist, and I don't see how that is out of place with partial preterism.

Well, I don't know where to begin.

That's the problem.

Well, maybe we should pick it up in a future day.

Yes, that's the thing, and we're trying to sum up.

I'm just baffled why you would think that that is out of place with partial preterism.

But anyway, going back to what we were discussing, Pastor Greg,

the love of God is abused, as we were discussing throughout this

program.

It's abused on both ends of the spectrum, either an Arminian understanding or a hyper

-Calvinist understanding.

And of course, you have people in between who may be orthodox in their

Calvinism in many ways, but perhaps venture into the waters of hyper -Calvinism

unconsciously.

What warning do you have specifically to our brethren who, not to say that

Arminians are not our brethren, but our brethren who we have the most intense fellowship with, who are

lovers of the doctrines of grace, and perhaps those cage -stage Calvinists who are

young in their understanding of Calvinism and yet are perhaps

zealous without knowledge, and they bash Calvinism over the heads of those who disagree with it and

come to sometimes hyper -Calvinistic conclusions without studying the whole counsel of God?

What warning do you have for those that are more closely affiliated with

our camp of Christian?

Well, I think that you're right to be concerned about that.

A long time ago, I read

a book by Francis Schaeffer called The Mark of the Christian, and I came under conviction of

sin, because the mark of the Christian is love, and by this will all men know that you're my disciples

if you have love one for another.

And we need to love each other, all of us need to love each other, and we need to relate to our brothers,

even the aspects of how to relate all of these

together to what the Bible reveals.

We have to relate, we have to consider, walk

humbly before God and lovingly toward all, and I,

again, I guess the thing I would say is,

away all the seeming contradictions,

in the way that you don't like it when others give the

text, even if you can't logically explain how it all fits together,

embrace everything, even if you can't fully explain it.

I remember when I went through that as a young Christian, it was with this very issue.

There was no way that I could illustrate the sincerity of the free offer of the gospel, and when I was a student,

it was 1977 or 78, I

was at John Mary's

book, a

seeming contradiction in

two regarding God's

and that the

light went on, and

I realized the exact same

type of problem.

I'm not going to reveal, Will says, why

will you die, and the

decree says

it's not going to

have, explain this, and then just

not try to explain

away text.

Now perhaps if you could,

in the time left to us,.

Warn our Arminian brethren, or those outside of the Calvinistic understanding of things, about their

perhaps haphazard use of the love of God

towards any and every individual who has ever.

Lived and who

will ever live in

the

future.

Yes, and I

think that

actually falls

into.

Line with what our brother Gordon, or Gordy I should say, in

Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania had to say, that there are people who become very

pragmatic in their approach to evangelism, because if they believe that it is possible for any human

being to come to repentance and faith in Christ and be saved,

they may more likely want to appeal to the emotion or other things

that will trigger a response that you and I and other

Reformed Christians might view as someone coming to a religious

experience to receive the benefits of religion, but there is no transformation that has genuinely taken place in

their lives and hearts.

Yeah, but the other thing I would say is, look, don't feel

that you have to justify.

Yes, in fact, Reverend Buzz has something to say.

Well, I just wanted to add, you know, rewording what he just said, I always tell people God has no bloopers.

That's right, and it's interesting that our fundamentalist brethren, who

might be anti -Calvinist, when they are claiming that we

distort, diminish, or twist, or

exterminate the genuine love of God in the way that we understand Him

and preach and proclaim to others, they have to

remember that even their own understanding of hell, because obviously most

fundamentalists, if not every one of them, believes passionately in the existence of hell, they have the same

kind of dilemma when it comes to explaining the love of God.

In fact, those that are believers in conditional immortality or annihilationism would have the same

problem with them about their believing in a God of love that still nonetheless sends

people to hell.

At least we understand, as Calvinists, that there is a different kind of love that He has for

those who are truly His elect, truly His bride, truly His children, right?

Yes, I think what you just said there is a very good point, and

that's another thing.

Even though it's a

popular plan for your life, the whole thing seems to be to emphasize.

Nice, fuzzy, the gospel that Paul preached actually begins with the

wrath of God revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and righteousness of men.

Wrath, sin, don't downplay.

And we are out of time, brother, and I know your website for Grace Emanuel Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids is

girbc .org, g -i for Grace Emanuel, r -b -c for Reformed Baptist

Church, dot org, g -i -r -b -c dot org.

Thank you so much, Pastor Greg.

If you could hold on so we can schedule another interview with you.

Thank you very much.

It was a privilege to be with you both again.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, and I hope everybody always remembers for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.