Dead Men Walking Podcast with Chris Huff: Normative & Regulative Principles of Worship

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00:17

Oh Get you right. Oh, yeah Yeah Going with the

00:24

Kool -Aid voice. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We have to get some sorry some new.

00:29

Yes. I think we say right every week I know. Hey, this is what we're now. I know just saying. Yeah, how you doing, brother?

00:34

I am really hot in this room I'm not gonna lie. I'm sweating I wish we could put do a zoom in on the fan

00:51

At first when I first got here was great, but now I'm just like yeah, where's that air?

00:57

Well now this summer here now that we started off the top of the show. We're just complaining. Yeah You know being complaining heathens it is hot we're gonna get through it if you see a sweat video that's what's going on Yep.

01:08

Yep. I mean, I'm all good. I'm not chubby, but I just don't sweat in room temperature. I'm chubby. It's a little

01:14

Yeah, I'm chubby. I'm just saying I'm not that chubby to where I sweat in room We'll get some

01:21

AC going out here in the studio soon, yeah But yeah, man, yeah doing good. It just came back from South Haven, Michigan, you know,

01:28

Michigan camping with the family. That was how'd that go? You just every day the glory of God just sitting there at Lake, Michigan watching the waves come in Feet in the sand just going how awesome is it to that?

01:40

God has created all these things for enjoyment, right? You know seriously the trails the lake the animals right down to just camping in the campsite and our camper

01:50

We just purchased it was unbelievable. I just older I get the more I love nature and how it reflects the glory of God So, are you on post

01:57

Melvin? Are you leaning now? Mill is where I'm at.

02:03

I might you are you are at some point optimistic. No, okay Okay, hold on look before we get too far into that.

02:10

Let's introduce who we have on the line waiting patiently here in studio He is the he's a podcast host of matter of theology, which is just a killer theology on the bar network

02:21

We love the bar now. We love Wayne Wayne's been on the podcast a few times He's public relations manager for just thinking podcast.

02:28

We love us some Daryl and All around great guy, mr.

02:33

Chris huff Chris, how are you sir brothers? I am fantastic. Thank you for having me

02:38

It was hard not to like to interject with that riff as a musician myself,

02:43

I appreciated that and And then the fan comment. I'm like I get that those all those fans do is just blow around the hot air

02:50

So it's yeah We're gonna get into a little bit with Chris tonight on worship music normative versus regulative worship

03:07

Maybe get into Bethel and and Hillsong and some of the modern stuff out there But first we want to do a little newsy news bring you guys up to date on what's going on this week

03:16

Are we ready to do some newsy news there? Let's do it Oh Let's do some news baby.

03:31

All right, so let's start here. Let's start with the Olympics since the Olympics has been happening recently so The global celebration of the depravity of man.

03:41

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly So they banned shook Kiri Shikari I'm sorry

03:47

Richardson from the 2021 Olympics for testing positive for marriage But let a man take years plus worth of estrogen and female hormones

03:58

Just to compete in the women's division in the Olympics Wow. Yeah, so Read that last week gold medalist

04:06

Yeah from Where was he from was he from the Netherlands? I'm pretty sure I think so But uh, but yeah, someone will correct us on the key.

04:14

Yeah, exactly. He took away the gold medalist from to actual born females

04:20

So I'm still saddened I'm still upset not surprised anymore Yeah, I mean we have just flipped everything upside down and we say it too often on this podcast

04:29

In no way am I condoning smoking marijuana? But to think that you're expelled or you can't compete because that changes

04:37

I don't know something in your body chemistry But yet right you're injecting hormones into your body to try to switch the created sex that the

04:45

Lord has created you in Yeah, I mean that's just insane. Like what are we doing right now? Well, here's another Tweet from web

04:52

MD now. They just tweeted out the other day. It's official. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, right?

04:57

Here we go So sex should be removed as a legal designation on the public part of birth certificates

05:06

The American Medical Association said Monday and that was

05:12

July 31st So yeah 2021 so yeah that we're looking at that So no more sex or gender which when we were talking to Glenn sunshine down at one of the fight -laugh -feast

05:22

And then I've heard multiple other historians say this they just go look at if you study history Usually the last great hurrah before an empire falls is they make no distinction between sexes

05:33

Yeah, they make no distinction between the differences between men and women they try to get to this point of homogenous between the sexes and You know, these historians are going looks like the

05:44

United States might be in its last throes here Yeah, we're doing the exact same thing. This is insanity, but I did want to bring this up It wasn't all bad at the

05:50

Olympics. I did find this quote online from Sydney McLaughlin. She's a 2020 Olympic gold medalist 400 meter hurdles and another world record and here's her quote

06:00

I don't deserve anything but by grace through faith Jesus has given me everything records may come and go the glory of God is eternal.

06:08

Come on Come on. Hey, man, right? I love it. So what's going on in this world

06:14

Chris? I mean, why are we saying we have to rate race sexes from? What is it driver's licenses and birth certificate certificates?

06:22

Yeah, just everything sounds like Yeah, I mean

06:27

I when I when I hear that Immediately my mind goes to Romans 130 and and and three words that the

06:33

Apostle Paul penned at the end of Romans 1 inventors of evil And so that that's that's exactly what what we're seeing

06:41

We're seeing the the the wrath of God's abandonment And and allowing this this kind of nonsense to take place.

06:50

So it's crazy. It's crazy What else we got Jason? Yeah. Yeah, so I'm gonna shift gears just a little bit

06:57

I don't know if you guys heard about the Shake Shack founder He is now requiring proof of vaccination for customers at companies

07:07

Other restaurants you can dine somewhere else So he's requiring vaccinations to be able to go hiring it for employees and for customers and so Yeah, so I yeah, so so for me if i'm gonna jump in here

07:24

Yeah, this is always touchy because I will defend to the hilt A private business owner to do something that is crazy and stupid.

07:33

That makes sense So I do not agree at all With requiring that if I owned a business, I wouldn't do that But he has the right to do that as a private business.

07:41

The problem becomes is when private business and the federal government or the state uh become intertwined with one another to where monies are being passed back and forth tax write -offs and exemptions are

07:52

Passed back and forth to where we now see the federal government using the private sector as an arm of Tyranny essentially.

08:01

Yeah Um, so yeah, this guy's an idiot. Yeah, uh, I think I mean i'm just gonna say

08:06

Uh, can we sit can we say that? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely complete button out here, you know

08:15

But you know, he has the right to do it right, um, I also think that private uh businesses should be able to deny

08:21

Uh service to making a cake any person they want but I would hope that the free markets sort that out

08:27

If I have a guy that goes look at i'm not serving any jews I would go you have the right to do that Guess what me my family my friends and everyone else not going to that establishment the free market should

08:37

Work that out, but we have in ingrained, uh, the federal government at such a level now. Yeah Um, you know even starting with the civil rights act and there there are good parts of that There was a lot in there that uh is not good

08:48

Because it really uh infringed on private owners rights, but um, it's just insane now that people are taking that step

08:56

Yeah in doing this And some of it is almost for the applause and you know, and for the uh, the progressives for the progressives.

09:03

Yeah Yeah for the virtue signaling. Yeah What's your thoughts on that chris Yeah, I I mean look

09:09

I mean if you as a private business owner, uh, I agree with you guys if you want to make that a requirement that that's fine

09:16

Um, just just don't come down on people when people also exercise their right and their freedom to say, okay

09:22

I i'm not going to do business with that establishment Um, you know when it comes to when it comes to the federal government mandating that stuff

09:29

We don't have enough time to talk about that That that's a whole other conversation, but they should not we'll put it that way.

09:36

Yeah. All right. No, you're absolutely right Jason, you got anything else for us? Yeah. Yeah, i'm gonna lighten it up just really quick So, uh,

09:43

I don't know if you guys have ever heard of this guy, but I remember seeing him on television Okay, donald gorski of fondue lock

09:52

Wisconsin, okay Already gonna be a great story. Exactly This guy's hair man.

09:58

It's insane. It's crazy. But anyway, he averages two big macs a day

10:04

And he has counted them up so ever since 1972 he has ate 32 ,340

10:15

Big macs and I mean this is like You should see him though, he's skinny like Can you imagine what he's doing to his like more intestines?

10:26

I don't know. He's You should see him look him up donald gorski fondue lock was married.

10:32

I feel like he's not married I think he is the whole part of getting married is to have someone else in the house to tell you things you shouldn't

10:38

Right. Are you going outside now what you're going there, you know No, no, no. No, you're not. Could you imagine how expensive that would get though?

10:46

McDonald's is expensive. No. Yeah Yeah, I have I have four people in my family now and i'm just like $32 what are you kidding me?

10:54

He's just got to be holding a conversation with people like yeah. So anyway, I was uh going Exact there it is right there

11:02

Gosh That's just well at this point man with 32 like maybe the first 15 000 that was the probably case but I mean there's

11:10

He's probably good now seared man at that point. Yeah, his body's like oh we're doing this. Okay, let's adjust it

11:16

All right, is that everything that's all we got That's awesome. Thanks for yeah Hanging out with us in that.

11:22

So let's get into the real stuff here the nitty -gritty, right? Yeah So, uh, chris, we love your podcast.

11:28

You do such a great job and they're talking about theology That's what we try to do here. Uh, we ended up we end up talking about big macs and farts though sometimes but hey

11:36

God loves us. We're doing our best. Hey, he's bringing us along sanctification Hey, there's a good hermeneutic right there, right?

11:47

There we go. Herman hermeneutic. Who's that guy? Herman? Who? Herman? What? So, uh, we we're all three musicians here which this that's why this is de -evolving so quickly for the listeners

12:00

You get musicians together we're kind of like comics man. We just I don't know I've always said it but um, yeah, we want to talk about worship.

12:08

We've touched on this a few times, right jason Podcast we've talked about our it's hard not to Yeah, it's hard right in this day and age with uh with bethel and elevate music and hillsong and people think well

12:20

You're just picking on them or i've had one guy say well, you're just jealous because it's popular and it's like well I don't really want to have world popularity as a christian says i'm gonna be hated scorned and probably persecuted but besides that Um, there's some people out there to where you you know,

12:33

I just talked to a 25 Year, uh christian once a week in the church and I brought and I just said something, you know normative and he goes what?

12:42

And I go like normative or regulative or like what your worship style is he goes? I don't know what you're talking about And that was part of the reason we started this podcast and even the shorts where we define things and just go

12:51

Well, this is what this means because we found so many people i'm sure chris you feel the same way or maybe not but Uh, you come across these christians who've been christians for decades man long time in church involved

13:03

And then you try to just go okay well Why do you believe what you believe or what's the theology behind this or this term or and i'm not saying we all have to Be scholars because jason and I definitely are no

13:12

But no, no, same same. I'm with you guys. No more. I want to know more theology just means to know god

13:18

So why wouldn't I have a good robust theology where i'm constantly learning who god is? So we wanted to bring chris on here, uh, because I know he talks about this and he does a good job on it

13:27

So maybe we can just start off with some definitions because we were formed. So we love definitions

13:33

Same. Oh, yeah, we love definitions. We want to make sure we're all on the same page So maybe for the listeners chris just start off and maybe define normative and regulative worship for the listeners

13:42

Yeah, yeah So the the the the term normative principle of worship where that actually started and and this is something that I just learned recently

13:50

It was actually a lutheran and an anglican idea um, and and and basically so what they said normative principle of worship is

13:58

Doing everything expressed in scripture Uh, and if there's something that's not prohibited in scripture, it's okay.

14:06

It's it's admissible Um, so obviously scripture doesn't speak to smoke machines strobe lights scripture doesn't speak to whether you uh, you know are using

14:15

Drums in in a church so on and so forth. Uh, so there's a very simple and basic definition

14:21

So anything that's expressly you you're given permission in the scriptures to do Um, and then plus anything that's not expressly prohibited in the scripture okay, um now

14:32

Regulative is more of the puritan idea and the puritan idea The regulative idea is that we we we can and we must

14:40

Uh only stick to what is in the scripture when it comes to our worship of god

14:47

Um, so it just because it's it's not prohibited in scripture doesn't mean that we have license

14:52

Uh to bring it into uh, the bride of christ Uh when it comes to when it comes to corporate and and I would say personal or private or regulative more regulated than correct

15:03

Right, right. Exactly. Exactly Okay, and would you have any biblical references for if someone is

15:11

I don't know someone's saying well, I believe only regulative and they say well what's your scriptural references for that?

15:17

Why would you believe that we can't do any everything that's uh, not mentioned is prohibited under the normative

15:24

Do we have any go -to scriptures for both of those sides? Sure. Is it more of an over? Arching kind of we look at the bible as a whole and say well, this is i'm kind of basing it off of the the whole book

15:36

Right. No fantastic question. I I would say, uh, you know for for the the the normative, uh for Scripture references as far as why to stay away from normative

15:46

Um, I I think there are some fantastic examples in the old testament You've got nadab and abihu offering strange fire to the lord and how the lord responds to that You've got what happened to uzzah in second samuel six

15:57

Um when uzzah who was was raised, um and and trained to value the ark of the covenant

16:04

He was trained to to to to know the value and worth of the presence of god Yet he took it upon himself.

16:11

Well, actually really if you if you want we want to get technical here This is more david's fault what happened to uzzah than uzzah's because david

16:18

Um was what he he had if you will succumb to pragmatism Um and and put the ark on a cart to bring it back

16:26

And when the when the ark, uh, when the ark went to fall Uzzah just went to reach out and grab it because he knew the value of the ark, but the ark should never been there

16:36

And so david, um, of course succumbing to that pragmatism uh, and and um, and and actually well,

16:43

I mean he was going against what was regulated in scripture Um, that was one of the reasons that uzzah as it says here

16:49

Uh that uh in second samuel six verse seven and the anger of the lord burned against uzzah and god struck him down there for his irreverence

16:59

And he died there by the ark of god And so as dr. Rc sproll has so famously said

17:06

Uzzah's big mistake is thinking that his hands were cleaner than the dirt Um, so so yeah, yeah, right

17:12

Uh, miss rc miss papa sproll, um, so um, so so so you you know, you find multiple examples throughout the scripture of of why normative and why a

17:23

Pragmatic approach to worship is is not okay now from the regulative side if I had to pick one

17:29

Um, I think one of the most um Uh, you know succinct if you will and then and then just just right to the point would be colossians 3 16

17:39

Let the word of christ dwell in you richly with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs

17:46

Singing with gratefulness in your hearts to god Um and and our latest episode of matter of theology

17:52

I I took an hour and 40 minutes of going through that one verse of scripture and tying in at psalm 19 showing why

18:00

Through the sufficiency of scripture. There is freedom found in the regulative principle of worship And why that if we as believers in the lord jesus christ if we want to be a worshiper

18:10

Um offering worship that is acceptable to god. We have to do so by being regulated By the word of god alone, you know isaiah 66 in verse 2 says, you know

18:19

Thus all these things came into being declares. Yahweh But the one this one I will look to him who's humble and contrite in spirit and who trembles at my word

18:28

And so if we want to if we want to worship in a way That honors god, why would we look to anything else other than what is expressly commanded in the word of god?

18:38

Yeah, that's good Now, would you make a did you have something there? No. No. Yeah, I have so many thoughts

18:45

I'm gonna go all over the place. I know i'm going to it's brother. I'm the same way man. You guys

18:51

Where's your brain even going? Yeah, so yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm gonna take us way off No quick question, but you can go off topic.

18:58

It's conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah so would you make a would you make a distinction between worship as the

19:05

As the assembly of believers on a sunday on the sabbath And worship say in a private room or home with your family or by yourself and then say well those two uh, those two could be possibly different to where maybe if you're

19:20

Regulative and you say look there has to be certain things, uh said in an order to it uh, because the bible says that is is there any

19:28

Uh, is there any difference when you're doing it privately and maybe just between you and the lord? Yeah, well,

19:35

I mean, you know what we do on when we gather on the lord's day Um, it isn't shouldn't be something that's done in a vacuum

19:42

Right what what we do when we gather on the lord's day should be just a continuation Of what we've done privately the rest of the week

19:49

Uh, we should and I said this a couple of episodes ago because i've been dealing with this topic now for for two episodes

19:55

But but you know, we shouldn't come to church to worship god. We should come to church worshiping It should be a continual all of life

20:03

At its essence. Here's what I said and then a couple episodes ago at its essence Worship is all of life and thought word indeed done to the glory of god according to the scriptures

20:13

And so if if you're seeking to live your life Um in everything that you do in the very next verse out of colossians 3 and whatever you do in word

20:23

Or indeed do all in the name of the lord jesus giving thanks to god the father through him So so I would say that all of life is to be regulated by the scriptures

20:32

Um as we aim for holy living as we and we were joking around earlier about sanctification, of course that being a process

20:38

But but that's that's the the primary means of grace that the holy spirit uses in our salvation

20:45

Is that is the herd that the gospel through the word of god, right? So the primary means of grace in our

20:51

Sanctification is also the holy spirit's use of the word of god in and through our lives

20:56

And so what we do when we gather Um on the lord's day again, it's just it we're just adding in this corporate element where we're all gathered together with one another um teaching admonishing one another as we're singing psalms hymn spiritual songs and of course listening to the priest's word

21:14

That's good. That's so good. Yeah, I I Here I go Go for it, man.

21:20

Go for it. No, come on I think as I as I was studying this, I mean the same thing just kind of kept coming back up.

21:27

I mean it was like We we realized the churches that are

21:33

More man -centered obviously, right? And unfortunately sending out.

21:39

Um, uh, you know different uh different Questionnaires saying hey, what would what would help right come to our service?

21:47

What you know, so it's it's more of it Yeah, what would you see? How do you how do you want to experience?

21:54

How do you? feel right And it's and it's the worst f word in this.

22:00

Yeah. Yeah, exactly Tell me how you feel about it and it's like it's all about this entertainment side.

22:08

Oh, yeah of of uh Of of where you know, the church has gotten off, you know, uh,

22:15

Off base, you know, and I actually had a conversation with someone And they brought up psalm 150 and they were just like well, you know praise him with trumpet sound

22:24

Uh praise him with lute and harp praise him with tambourine and dance praise him with strings and pipe praise him with sounding symbols

22:32

Praise him with loud clashing cymbals and everything that has breath praise the lord praise them, right?

22:39

And uh, you know, and it's like okay. Um, so can can we can we put electric guitars in that?

22:47

Can we put a bass? Can we put right drum? Absolutely. No, but but again, it's like okay.

22:52

Well, what? what Takes us away from that worship like what you were just talking about chris, right?

22:59

Like like what takes us outside of that, you know when it when it's uh, not something more of a me

23:06

Situation does that make sense? I hope that makes perfect sense brother. No, no, no, and I I appreciate the question

23:12

And it's a good question and I think I think what takes us away from that. So just today, uh, daryl harrison

23:19

Uh, of course a lead host of just thinking, uh, he he texted virgil and I a sermon uh martin lloyd jones and um, and Love lloyd jones, right?

23:30

Love lloyd jones and the name of this sermon Is it's a revival sermon entitled the power of the living god

23:37

Okay, and in this sermon, he's like he's like man. I'm on my third time listening to it And so i've actually started the second my second time listening to it but one of the things that that lloyd jones says in here is

23:49

He he he reminds all of us. He says this he says quote That is the curse of the christian church today self -reliance

23:58

Wow, okay So so the problem is the the problem I and and I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with electric guitars bass drums

24:07

I've been doing that for over 15 years so, um But but but here's here's where the problem becomes here's what becomes a problem

24:16

Is when it becomes more about what pleases me Instead of what pleases god according to the scriptures

24:23

So if we if our goal is entertainment If our goal is youth if our goal is our goats the unbelievers instead of god

24:32

That that then we've missed the mark. Yeah, we've missed the mark. So let me let me pull up. There's a quote. Um by vody bachem

24:40

And um, he's all the good guys tonight. I know man. Oh, bro We're gonna have to get chris on this show

24:48

Check this out. Great. You've been reading my notes Dude awesome, man. Hey, no, that that's just that's just that's just provenance right there, bro

24:57

That's all that is. Um, so so this is what uh vody bachem said This is a sermon that he gave um at the 2019 truth matters conference

25:04

Um, and the name of the sermon is entitled the pain and the peril of pragmatism Okay, and here's what he said.

25:11

It's a little bit of a longer quote quote Our worship must be offered in accordance with god's dictates

25:18

Here's what you don't hear me saying you don't hear me saying that our passion for god doesn't matter

25:23

You don't hear me saying that we should be wooden Legalistic rule oriented. No, you don't hear me saying that but what governs us is the word of god the word of god is sufficient it's

25:36

Sufficient that's where we start and then vody goes on. He quotes, uh, bruce leafblad's definition of worship quote true

25:43

Worship happens when we set our minds attention and our hearts affection on the lord Praising him for who he is and for what he's done

25:52

And then vody goes on to say our worship is word Oriented it has to be word oriented.

25:58

It must have it must happen in accordance with his dictates How how do we know those dictates?

26:05

We know those dictates from his sufficient word remember then in worship and here's the key Remember that in worship our goal is god period full stop

26:15

Our goal is god. Our goal is communion with god. Our goal in worship is god

26:22

And so if we're to measure the success of our worship, that's something else We see a lot of people doing today, right? They measure success by how the how things feel there's that fourth letter word again

26:31

Yeah, uh, he says, uh, he says, um How if we were to measure the success of our worship we measure whether or not we've communed with god

26:39

In accordance with the word of god for the purpose of glorifying god because he's god and for that His word is sufficient very close quote

26:48

So you can have electric guitars. You can have bass guitars. You can have drums Yeah, but what is your worship word oriented is your goal in worship god period full stop to quote vody

27:02

If it's not If it's not you have built an idol You've built a golden calf and you've tried to give it the name yahweh, but it's really your own felt needs and own felt emotions

27:14

Yeah, gosh, I love and correct me if i'm wrong here But I feel like a lot of modern churches treat worship differently than they treat the things that uh,

27:25

That the lord has given us that have sharp edges and that can be dangerous, but it's been meant for our glory But because we're in a fallen world, you know a

27:32

Bourbon or a cigar or these things are right meant for enjoyment, but they're in moderation glory onto the glory of god

27:40

Uh, but they don't treat worship that way and I feel worship is not only can be used as a weapon But it is a dangerous thing if not done correctly, but we say

27:49

Singing a tune that sounds nice and technically we're standing in church and maybe raising our hands Well, then we don't have to worry about all the things that body just said in that or that that you've been saying

27:58

Uh, it doesn't have to be necessarily god -centered, but it becomes an idol the entertainment aspect becomes an idol the

28:04

Self -gratification of playing it or listening to it becomes an idol. I just don't understand.

28:10

Why? Yeah, why we're we're not treating Uh music that way when in fact, we know that satan, uh challenged

28:16

The sovereignty of god based on knowing how beautiful his makeup of music is it is powerful and it's only relegated to god and um

28:27

I just feel I just feel like a lot of modern churches are missing what you just said They're just missing the fact that they will look at someone outside Who maybe he's an unbeliever a new christian smoking a cigarette and cast them into the pit of hell and i'm not advocating smoking cigarettes

28:42

Sure, sure go inside and they will blaspheme the name of god with a self -centered

28:49

Unbiblical worship me. So I I doubt idolatry based worship and I just absolutely why can't we talk about that man?

28:56

I feel and here's here's a question that podcast Yeah. Yeah. So here's the question I have for for someone like that is who do you think god's wrath burns against more?

29:04

Right the the the the unbeliever The the unbeliever who doesn't know the truth or the professed and I use that word carefully the professed believer

29:14

Yeah, who who proclaims to know the truth yet blasphemes his name by offering false worship to god

29:20

Yeah, look at what happened to nadab and abahu. Look at what happened to uzzah. Look at what happened

29:26

Um, and why am I byra? Thank you. I couldn't remember their names for right now You know, look at what happened to them

29:33

Do we not think that that that us blaspheming the name of god taking the name of god in vain and worship?

29:40

angers him I mean That that's something that so many churches don't understand the goal of church

29:47

Again going back to this lloyd jones sermon. I was listening to today like he said in there He said the church is the place where the presence of god dwells

29:55

And there are too many churches And too many pastors and church leaders and music leaders who have forgotten that This isn't about what you get out of today.

30:04

It's about what did god get out of today? Not that he needs anything, but did your worship?

30:10

Did your did he find favor upon your offering today? Or did he look at that and say that that's a false idol?

30:18

Yeah, that's a scary thing to think about. Yeah, absolutely Definitely. Wow. Yeah. Um, uh,

30:24

I was just gonna bring up exodus 23 25 worship the lord your god And his blessing will be on your food and water.

30:30

I will take away sickness from among you um also when paul and sylis, um

30:36

Acts 16 25 about midnight paul and sylis were praying and singing hymns to god

30:42

And the other prisoners were listening to them And and that's that's something for me.

30:48

I mean, I I just think the word of god always cuts through, you know I really do think that whenever we are singing

30:56

Psalms, you know at at the fight lat fees festival greg Um, uh, you know something like that.

31:02

I mean right those those words I mean, they are just amazing, but we are we're we're missing that in in certain uh, uh songs these days in worship, um, and it and it doesn't seem to be um

31:20

All about christ, you know all about right? No, I I had an experience and i've and i've said this before I think on the podcast

31:26

Um, but I just just not very long ago so, I mean I grew up in a you know in the 80s and 90s, uh in a very legalistic church and then went to the other side and very

31:37

Uh charismatic pentecostal type church, right with the whole bill johnson movement and things like that We're going to get into that in a minute

31:43

But um, and i've been involved in music. I played piano and drum since I was in third grade I've led worship before and I realized just a few years ago.

31:50

I was standing in a church and I was in this in I just went the only voice that I can hear right now is is the

31:58

Is the lead singer is the you know pastor when I call him. Yeah, and I just went how uncommunal is that?

32:04

Yeah, like yes, then we go down to places like g3 and and uh fight left feast and you're singing in unison

32:12

I mean at jesus fight left feast He'll give you the note and then just back off and you just hear the body of christ worshiping

32:19

Oh my gosh, the corporate worship the way we were meant to and we've just kind of gotten to this thing to where The majority of churches kind of have that same scheme whether the american idol.

32:29

Um, yeah, like somebody's up there like, you know, and everybody else is just kind of like I don't mean oh brothers look

32:36

I was I was a part of a church. I was a contracted to to lead worship for the students and um

32:42

I was every every every lord's day you would go to the main service and it was the same thing

32:47

It was like all you could hear were the vocalists. You couldn't hear the congregation singing. Yeah um, and then i'll never forget, uh, you know going to the shepherds conference in 2019 and And being there in person and hearing 4 000 men

33:01

Bellowing at the top of their lungs these these theologically rich Hymns, yeah, and so, you know, but before we jump into the bethel thing one of the thing

33:10

I wanted to say about this is is You know going back to rc. There was a quote. Let's see if I can remember it now from rc I think he said, uh, god is not god is uh, god is never pleased with ignorant worship worship must be grounded in the knowledge of Worship must be grounded in the knowledge of god and and um, you know,

33:30

I mean how how true is that and and uh, As we lloyd jones going back to lloyd jones again, you know, he said as we think of god, so we will worship

33:39

And you know when you when you stop and look at church history One of the things that was never tolerated throughout church history

33:47

Um, i mean biblical church history is ignorant worship You know, you would find you would find pastors and church leaders if someone professed faith in christ

33:55

They would spend time with them to to ensure they saw the fruits of that profession And if they didn't they wouldn't admit them into membership in the church

34:02

They wouldn't baptize them. They couldn't partake of the lord's supper. They made sure they did the work

34:07

They did the labor as the apostle paul said in ephesians and galatians to make sure that ignorant worship privately and corporately

34:16

Did not happen And and and when you that's a far cry that that's a complete 180 right from what you see today

34:24

And in the overly pragmatic seeker sensitive anti -biblical approach to worship. Yeah.

34:29

Yeah So let's shift gears. Let's talk about some of these more popular ones And and I think we've almost covered some of the points that we're going to cover in this section uh, but It kind of reminds me it might even be one of your tweets chris, but I can't remember

34:43

I see so much content in my social media but it was something to the effect of praise god that I don't have to go to a church this morning with a

34:50

Worship pastor in skinny jeans telling me for the hundredth time that my victory is just around the corner Thank god for like godly

34:59

I can't remember. I'd love to give him credit on here if one of the list wasn't me That was that's a good one though But it was just he was just saying like and it kind of is it's just like you know

35:07

With your expensive tennis shoes and your skinny jeans and your victory's right around the corner And I get depressed when I sing those songs like right.

35:13

Yeah The lord took out my heart of uh stone and replaced with the heart of flesh Like i've known what he's done for me

35:19

I understand who I am and my depravity like Uh, I don't even care if I get another air quotes victory the rest of my life

35:25

The fact that he wakes me up every morning, right? Is my victory all glory to him and everything that I do my job my family my wife my career my friends

35:34

Whatever it is as you go out into the world preach the good news the whole thing And it's just so depressing. It feels like it keeps us in a

35:41

In an immature state. Yeah as it does. I feel like you could take a six month old christian

35:46

Maybe heard the gospel ears were a prick the lord changes their heart But then they stay at something that just says look you just need to keep getting out

35:54

You know, you have a valley you got to get to the mountain and it's like no the valley is Where the lord puts you first of all second of all you're closest to the lord third of all

36:01

So he's teaching you bringing you through like the first thing we want to do is try to get ourselves out of the thing

36:06

That is going to refine us but right so I i'm going off on a rant here, but my point was is you talk to christians and almost every single

36:16

Self -professing christian in america that I talked to has heard of bethel has heard of hillsong or has heard of elevate music

36:23

I mean there is such uh a push in the culture They they have done such a good like I said air quotes job of getting it into the mainstream to where you go to you know,

36:34

I was in a Charismatic catholic church and they were singing a bethel song And I so now the catholic church

36:41

Uh is now singing bethel what's going on? They're also singing beyonce. Did you hear about that? What they had?

36:47

Did you guys hear about this? No, no, I forgot to bring that up in newsy news. So Now this is like totally off the subject we don't have to edit this but should have put a frock san francisco

36:57

There's a san francisco. Um, uh catholic church. Okay, they had a beyonce mass

37:03

Where they sang all beyonce tunes. Well that I mean, um, yeah, and that's why i'm i'm reformed ladies.

37:10

Yeah amen Yeah, go look that up so what's the big deal here with uh with bethel or hillsong or Are they not checking some of the boxes that we talked about in the first half of the show?

37:22

No, no, not at all. Uh, and in fact, they're running away from those boxes completely. Um, you know, uh,

37:29

Here's how I would classify, uh, all three of those whether it be bethel hillsong or elevation false church false church false church

37:36

Um, you know bethel is a false church. That's how you really feel. I know right? Don't i'm not gonna miss words

37:44

Nope, nope, um, you know, so so bethel, uh bethel in and of itself they are

37:50

Aside from the overly charismatic um Bent they teach a false christ.

37:57

Uh, they they hold to what's known as canonic theology Uh, and they bill johnson has been he wrote it in books

38:04

He has said it from the platform that jesus christ even though now, let me let me say this

38:09

Uh to refute an article recently written by sam storms, which it's sam storm. So that's all you need to know.

38:14

Yeah Um, so sam storm said well on on their on their page in their doctrinal statement. They say true god true man

38:20

Um, but but here's the problem sam and anybody else who would try to try to try to defend this

38:26

Bill johnson has so clearly stated uh that that jesus Uh did what he did simply as a man and not as god.

38:38

Yeah. Yep. Yep Sermon multiple times. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

38:43

So the jesus of bethel and jesus culture is not the jesus of scripture um

38:49

Therefore they are teaching a false gospel Um, they I mean not to mention their ecclesiology is anti -biblical

38:56

Um, as far as the way their church is set up Um, but but they are they are false teachers

39:02

Let me interject here really quick. Let's play devil's advocate and I go. Yep. I know about the christian tarot cards at bethel

39:08

I know about the grave soaking at bethel. I know about unbiblical healing. Um, uh transition.

39:13

What are those called the healing? Uh, Centering stones. Yeah, they do the rocks too. So those that they do

39:19

The ones that close for covet. Yeah. Yeah Right. I got all that but that's not me

39:25

I just listen to the music because I can worship to and I like the way it sounds in the words and things What's that argument then?

39:31

What do you that's that person that says that well, I I I pivot right there and I say hey You know what number one i'm glad that the lord has given you some discernment to know that that's false teaching

39:40

But let me ask you a question if worship is more than just singing like we worship god in everything we do, right?

39:45

The answer is typically. Yes, sure. Absolutely. Okay. Well, let me ask you a question So by you listening to those songs you have to download them or buy them from uh,

39:54

Some sort of streaming service apple music google music spotify something like that, right? Is that where you know? I'm still ripping mp3s on an appster dude

40:01

Sweet. Okay, so so that's a different discussion Joke, oh, yeah, right.

40:08

Yep. Yep. No, no, I know. Um, so so my question would be this is is then you know Do you understand that by doing that those whether it be apple google, whatever spotify?

40:18

um Those those entities pay those songwriters and ministries money royalties

40:25

So by you saying you can just listen to them and listen to their music because you worship the true christ

40:30

Well, you're not worshipping god in all of your life. You are financially contributing to false teaching Yeah, that's that's a great point.

40:38

It's true. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah, so that that's that's my response to that So they're not so they're not checking boxes.

40:44

Um, we've talked about bethel So so what so what are some other things because I feel like too and I hate a slippery slope, uh, uh argument but when we get into uh, like normative principle,

40:55

I feel like just because of the Depravity of man we get into some weird crazy stuff then to where it's like well the bible

41:03

Specifically doesn't say that we can dump buckets of slime on the stage during worship.

41:09

Yeah I'm, not picking any one pastor, but you can google it Uh, so we can do it and that is holy and that is god, you know, or even like 10 years ago

41:16

What's his face who played highway to hell for easter? I can't remember. Oh, yeah. Yeah Since I was asked to do that by the way for a student service one year.

41:24

Wow. Well, yeah, the answer was no Get the youth man. Don't recycle them. Don't preach the gospel.

41:30

Don't be a godly manly, uh example to them Don't you know? No, let's just get them in with uh pizza and acdc coverage, but so so my whole point of that was is

41:41

Um, yeah, we have a slippery slope there so are we looking at that and saying that is because Maybe they're not guided by one or other those principles or are they saying they're they're warping one of those principles that it's not

41:53

Biblical at all and that's why they're not checking those boxes Uh as far as bethel, are we still just bethel or I mean

42:00

I put them all in the same I mean, I look at hillside bethel. I look at uh elevate with furtick. I mean, it's all very self -centered

42:07

Uh poppy not, you know theological Godless music to me, right?

42:12

Well, it also goes back to what you were talking about earlier. It goes back to the uh, this man -centered worldview

42:19

Um, you know, it goes back to my feelings about god and I I I me me me my my my instead of Instead of a right a right framework

42:30

Um, uh, and that's at minimum Um, so so one of the things on matter of theology that uh that my my former and occasional co -host

42:38

He's not doing a full -time anymore. Uh drew vanita Uh, you know, he came up with this thing as far as matter of theology and it was just for the sake of one

42:46

Okay And and and so I started thinking about that and um, you know, one of the reasons that I I don't promote uh or or encourage, um anyone to download and listen to anything by hillsong bethel elevation, um, and some others is is for the sake of one if there's one person one person that I lead, um, or Uh, let's say if i'm in a church and i'm leading the music and everybody knows that okay

43:15

You know how outspoken I am about this or uh, and and we play a song

43:20

Uh that's co -written by someone from bethel that's co -written by someone from hillsong or elevation And that person goes and looks up those churches

43:28

Yeah, and then falls into that false teaching. Do you understand what you've done? You have

43:34

Been the vehicle That has been used To uh to to lead someone astray

43:40

Sure for the sake of one. It doesn't matter. So so the question is why shouldn't I um, you know, the the question should be this if it's not

43:50

If it's not committed to to 110 biblical fidelity, it should be avoided Yeah, you know, we we don't have to wonder what god wants.

43:59

He's given us a book He has given us a standard Why deviate from that the only reason to deviate from that is because you don't like the fact that it's confronting your pride

44:10

Yeah, absolutely So, oh, absolutely. So as we put bookends on this jason, you got anything you want to jump in with there?

44:16

Hey, man. Yeah. No, this this has been awesome. I I love this conversation. I mean we could probably do like five.

44:22

Oh, yeah Yeah, I mean I I would just encourage everyone to just uh, really really start to look into this subject because I mean

44:32

Worship is so important. I mean this is you know, this is about our whole life I mean, yeah, and just like chris said at the beginning of the show

44:39

What we do by ourselves Um should flow into what how we're worshiping, you know christ once we get into the church as well, you know um, yeah, and and I think that uh, this is it's it's just A really important subject and I mean really really start thinking about these lyrics that you're singing

44:57

And uh if they are theologically based, um From the bible from scripture um, but yeah, it's so it's so tough, uh

45:05

I've said before it is I was I said the I said the sinner's prayer at seven and I got saved at 22

45:11

When the lord, you know knocked me off my beast and it was just funny or 24, excuse me And it was just funny, you know reading the bible and then reform theology and going.

45:21

Oh my gosh This is what the bible actually teaches but then it's hard because Boy, you listen to some of this music

45:27

And you just go and you start to feel like you're getting a critical spirit almost because it's like And it's not because I want to complain or or be critical it's because my heart goes out to people who are ignorantly saying those things and it willfully keeping them in a state of immaturity and a distancing from god and a and a slowing of their

45:45

Sanctification and all these things and and they just go oh, but it's just a song and it's like But but when you're saying those words, right like god's chasing after me boy, if we could only just you know

45:55

All these weird things and misrepresenting what love truly is or not showing all the characters of love and justice wrath and All these things and it's just so disheartening because we have millions chris millions of christians going to church every week

46:09

And just like you said and jason said at the top of the show They just look at it as their two -hour punch clock of church instead of going.

46:16

Oh, this is just a continuation Of what I should be doing and what I have been doing all week

46:22

So we have a listener out there right now that's going you want what what these guys are saying It's kind of the first time hearing it.

46:28

Um, i'm not really sure I listened to some of these or maybe i'm going to a church That plays some of these How how would you tell that listener or anyone watching this?

46:37

Um, What what am I looking for biblically in worship? What would be maybe a little checklist that I could go down and say?

46:44

What is what what makes this biblical or not? Is it kind of some of the things we discussed? Yeah, I I mean

46:50

I would start Gosh, that's that's such a loaded question. Uh, yeah, I mean there's so many things

46:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, which is fine, which is fine. Um, you know, so so I I would I would say

47:01

I would say this you know, keep in mind, um that Scripture scripture's clear on.

47:07

Um, the fact that there is a a teaching Aspect, um, I read colossians 3 16 earlier

47:13

There's a teaching aspect to what we do when we're singing songs. There's a teaching aspect We are admonishing one another the scriptures say that's colossians 3 that's ephesians 5

47:23

Um, so so there's an admonishing a sharpening and exhorting of one another Um, so so so I would say this, um

47:31

That first and foremost, uh, you know, you need to be be a berean And the only way the only way you're going to really be able to pick this stuff out

47:41

Is to also do what colossians 3 16 says and that's to let the word of christ dwell in You richly know the word devour the word let it in and do not let it out

47:54

Let it in and keep everything else out Psalm 19 says that the scripture makes the wise makes the simple wise it and in the hebrew

48:03

What that means is the simple is is talking about the open door Shut the door the open door of your mind and your heart being open -minded

48:11

When it comes to biblical issues being open -minded when it comes to theology is not virtuous

48:16

Okay, we need to be Narrow -minded when it comes to what we see in the scriptures now to your point

48:24

That doesn't mean that we have a critical spirit That means that if there are those that are caught in this deception that we have one voice

48:30

And that's a voice of concern and taking people to the scripture and showing them Why this is incorrect and why they should avoid this

48:38

And then john calvin says that the pastor and the preacher should have two different voices one for Defending the sheep, but then or encouraging the sheep, but then one for warding off the wolves

48:47

So if there are those who are leading in this deception, that's a different tone. That's a different conversation

48:54

To where you are admonishing them to repent and stop this because what they are doing they are tools of the enemy at that point um, so so so To answer your question know the scriptures be a berean

49:08

Examine songs examine song lyrics examine song writers again Not for the point of not not for the purpose of going.

49:15

Haha. Gotcha, right going but going my desire Is to glorify god and and and to to honor the fidelity of his word.

49:24

That's my goal. That's my desire um, and and so so that's where you start and and if you you know, if you see that in your church

49:33

That is a again you need to pray pray pray, uh seek some wise counsel

49:39

Um, and then you need to talk to your leadership about that and and and that's where it becomes a very respectful

49:46

And a reverent conversation to where you're showing them The fact that we we need to put in the work to guard the flock of god that we've been when called and and gifted to lead

49:57

Um and and to protect them from this stuff and here's why Um and and and then take it from there.

50:03

There are multiple avenues that could go So vet the songs that you sing if you're a song leader music leader worship pastor, however, you want to word that out there

50:12

Um be regulated by the word of god. You do not need to play bethel and hillsong and elevation

50:17

You do not need to play all the man -centered passion songs that are out there um, you don't

50:23

There are there you have hymn books and and hymns that have stood the test of time

50:28

You have people writing modern hymns a matt boswell a matt papa a sovereign grace music.

50:33

You've got um, You know, I I love speaking of fight laugh feast, you know, uh, the the psalm books

50:39

I can't remember what it's called now that that doug wilson's church. Um, They they they released and sold out of and then they got some more in so right

50:47

There are so many options out there and and let me say this and then i'll i'll i'll i'll kind of cut it off Because again, there's so much more

50:53

I could say Is don't limit if you're a if you're a music leader, uh out there You're you're you lead music in your church.

50:59

Number one. I hope you are a biblically Qualified elder pastor man, by the way, let me just go ahead and say that what uh doing that Um, absolutely.

51:10

Hey, look the the person we just decided on that Okay, good Yeah, the person leading the music in the church should should meet the qualifications of a pastor and elder out of titus and timothy period

51:20

Yeah, so, uh, you know it all that entails. Um, so but look don't limit

51:26

The gifts that god has given you and your team Don't do that open the scriptures and start writing.

51:33

Yeah, don't limit yourselves. Don't limit what god could do through you Um for his glory and the edification of his bride.

51:41

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Amen. Cool, man Chris, we thank you so much for being here Could you throw out uh, just some social media stuff where people can hear you on the on your podcast where they get you on social

51:51

Media. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so i'm uh, just at uh, chris huff on everything So I got in early enough where I was able to get that name.

51:59

Um, so uh, instagram, uh twitter i'm very active on twitter uh, instagram facebook, um

52:06

My podcast is entitled matter of theology. You can also same same thing find us on uh,

52:12

Uh instagram and twitter, uh, of course i'm a part of the bar network as you guys said, uh, so check out the bar

52:17

Uh, and I would be remiss if I did not mention my boys j over at just thinking I head on over to just thinking dot me

52:24

How awesome has that been going for the last year and a half man when they just blew up? Man last yeah

52:30

Yeah, well they were man. They were already Popularity was growing and then george floyd in the gospel.

52:36

Um, yeah That episode hit that was the one that just kind of catapulted them

52:41

And uh, man, they they speaking of speaking of fun, uh, awesome biblical topics their last episode

52:48

Episode 112 has god really said all about women preachers Wow And then they've got one coming soon, uh called.

52:55

Why are you afraid dealing with the topic of sinful fear and anxiety? So Yeah, there's a lot a lot of fantastic stuff happening right now, but that's where you could find me

53:05

Um, i'm all over the place. So there you go guys We we in jason and I have said this we love supporting other brothers in the lord that are doing things like you're doing chris and things that duane are doing and just thinking and all these different guys that are

53:17

Getting the truth getting good theology to people who might just stumble across something or hear something

53:23

Oh my cousin great topics. Yeah my cousin was listening to this guy named chris and now i'm you know on his podcast and it's it's just such a great platform to be able to To grow the kingdom of god and to amen bible and we appreciate what you're doing.

53:36

So Anytime you want to come back to the podcast. You're more than welcome. I think jason would agree. Oh, yeah

53:42

All right. Uh, this could be a three or four going here. I know Since we only did one after you listen to this go jump over to chris's uh podcast matter theology

53:52

He said he did a couple episodes in this i'm sure you would absolutely love it Yeah, and guys everyone who's listening.

53:58

We appreciate all the voicemails. We've been getting on the website dmwpodcast .com obviously all the Interaction we're getting on our instagram account.

54:05

We have more of a presence there Um, then we do on well actually I don't even think we do twitter anymore We kind of booted that and focus on instagram facebook and youtube, but we appreciate all the feedback

54:15

We get we get a lot of feedback where people say we really like this. We don't like that Can you talk about this good and bad, which is a guy?

54:21

Yeah, which is good. So guys keep those comments coming in interactions always tell a friend. That's how uh, we grow

54:27

And uh, we appreciate you guys jason. Did you have anything else before we head out? Nope. Thanks so much for being here chris

54:33

Yeah, thank you guys so much God bless Yep Be sure to follow us on facebook and instagram at dead men walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips or email us at dead men walking podcast at gmail .com