What is and is not Biblical Counseling

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host, from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport.

Well, hello. No, I am not Andrew Rappaport. I am a much better looking Andrew. It is I, Drew, you know me, from Matter of Theology, and of course, the Dead Guy Reader Society, which is our podcast within a podcast.

Show Setup, Guest Introduction, and the Plan for the Night

But we are not talking about that tonight. I do want to welcome you to Apologetics Live, a podcast ministry put on by Striving for Eternity, where we seek to answer your tough biblical questions. You doubt that?

Come on in. Just go to ApologeticsLive .com, click the duck, make sure that your audio and video is set up, and we will bring you in. And let me say this, make sure your camera's on, because that's how we know that you're connected and ready to go.

Now, I'm going to bring in, oh, oh, wait, there is, and he's in an airport. It is Andrew Rappaport, our fearless leader.

Yeah, hoping to get on my, hoping to get on my flight. We will see. It's been delayed, delayed, delayed, but hoping to get to Indianapolis. I got a family conference in Idaho. Sorry? Let me think where it's at.

Indianapolis. Montoon. No, I land in Indianapolis. Montoon, Illinois. There we go.

Wait, you're landing in Indianapolis and then going to Illinois?

Yeah, not too far. So Melissa's asking if I'm going to G3. No, I'm not, because I will be at a men's conference next week with John Harris, the Overcoming Evil Men's Retreat. So that's where I'll be next week.

Okay. So I won't be at G3. That's okay, I won't be either.

Yeah, I won't be at G3 either, but I will be at the OSA Operation Save America rally on Wednesday, where we're going to be gathering at an abortion mill. So there's going to be several, several speakers.

I am one of the prayer leaders. So Darren asked me to be one of the prayer leaders and lead us in prayer for our elected officials. So that's my task that I get to do. So that's about as close as G3 to G3 I'm going to get though.

Well, Greg Moore is asking, I'm here for his itinerary. I hope to see him in February at Jeffrey Rice's open air theology conference. So I hope he's going to be there. That'll be good. I got to meet him there.

That was great. So yeah, but I'm looking forward to tonight, although I will have to listen after I land. Yeah, you will. To the event, but I know we got Aaron backstage.

Yep, let me bring him in real quick. He is one of our speakers.

So Aaron, one of our speakers at Striving for Eternity. I always joke because he outranks me in my martial arts. He's a black belt in several, several different disciplines, but he's a actual ninja, just saying.

So be careful with him, Drew, in case you decide to mess with him.

I'm still trying to get Andrew to refer to me as Master Brewster, but he just won't do it.

That's what you should have changed your name to.

I'm going to start boarding now, so I'll talk to you guys later. All right. Have a safe flight.

Thankfully, he's not flying. I mean, if he were actually flying, there's no guarantee, but they should be okay.

Yeah, I mean, he's not like Kenneth Copeland, where he has his own plane and flies it around. You know, it's probably safer that way, probably safer that way.

Of course, if he did, he'd be asking for a lot more money all the time.

That's right. That's right. But A .M. Brewster, Aaron Brewster, welcome to the show. I know that our crowd is probably familiar with you, but go ahead and tell a little bit about yourself for those new listeners that we might have.

Aaron Brewster’s Background and Evermind Ministries

Yeah, so I actually was invited by Andrew to be part of the Christian podcast community with the podcasts that I had, two of them. And one was called Truth, Love, Parent. The other one's called Celebration of God.

And he and I got to know each other. And over time and multiple years being in that format, talking on the phone, also having the opportunity to excuse me. I'm drinking tea and I'm getting all choked up here, also doing the theology throw downs.

And he and I had known each other for, you know, interacted in that way for quite some time. But we had the opportunity this past year, actually earlier this year, to do a family conference in northern Indiana together.

It was weird. Like we met each other for the first time in person. And it was kind of like, I know this guy. I've interacted and talked so much. But we are. And it's weird. And then he graciously invited me to kind of join the Striving for Eternity stable of speakers.

He didn't refer to it that way. I don't know why I did, but I had the opportunity to travel and speak and present the ministry. But also I work with my original ministry called Evermind Ministries. And Evermind Ministries is a family of ministries that has a number of different sub ministries.

Because the big mission is to keep God's truth at the center of the human experience. Our lives are very multifaceted. You were before the show. You're telling me about your little ones. So you're a husband.

You're a dad. You're a podcaster. You are a friend and a brother and fellow church member. And we want to help people keep God's truth at the center of all of those. So the different ministries that are part of Evermind Ministries really attempts to do that via curriculum, via speaking, via podcasts.

So if anyone were interested in learning more about Evermind Ministries, I've been sending them to evermindministries .com. And we have an app, Evermind app, that they can learn all about the cool stuff that we're doing.

That's great. Great. Yeah. Andrew has not invited me to be one of the Striving for Eternity speakers. He's heard me preach. You know, I don't know.

Oh, boy. Oh, he's missing out. But, you know, he's got you doing this stuff. That's true. This is the test. Right.

You know, I'm glad you say that because how well I handle this could open up those future opportunities.

Just kick the doors open like the Old West. That's right. That's right.

What I'm trying not to do is grab him and throw him out of here and just take over. Right. But before we get into today's topic, let's do a little bit of in the news. And Andrew actually sent me this story.

Can I say something before you get to the story? Yeah. He told me he said, you know, you're going to come be on the show tonight. And we were talking a little bit about the topic. And then he said that Drew is going to share this new story and I'm not going to tell you what it is.

And I was like, well, why not? And he said, no, I just want to hear. I want to hear it. When you when you hear it fresh and I want to hear your responses to it. I'm like, OK, not a little concern. What is this new story?

So I'm on pins. I don't know about anybody else, but I am. OK, OK, OK.

So this is out of Jefferson, Alabama. A six year old boy received a level three suspension from school because that recess. He was playing cops and robbers and using finger guns. That's why he was suspended.

Now, get this, get this. Had he not used finger guns, but actually use his fist and punched another kid in the nose, he would have only received a level two suspension. But because he used his fingers as guns, he received a level three.

So very interesting. I'm doing two things here at once. I want to. Hey, what's up, dude? I wanted to join me. The chat. But I realized apparently I needed to have, you know, I don't know, like I had to log in.

So I was typing that in when you came to the end of that sharing that. And I'm like, oh, I got it. OK, let me let me stop trying to log in here and try to respond to that. I mean, I don't I don't think there's anyone listening right now who is surprised.

I think we've gotten past the shock when we hear stuff like that. We've almost in a very sad and potentially scary way. We're becoming very desensitized to the insanity. Yes. But it's not it's not surprising because our world is is falling apart when it comes to stuff like that.

The inconsistencies, the foolishness and I don't know. I don't know which direction you want to go when you want to attack this or you want to you want to talk about it. But there's there is so much wrong.

There are so many ways to to try to address something like this. But the concern, the fear is that barring an act of God, none of it's going to matter because literally, I mean, the insanity of that story speaks to the fact that I mean, what are you going to apply to this to fix that problem?

Right. How are you going to convince him? Yeah, let's I mean, let's open it up. Let's let's attack it, because a from from the story that Andrew sent me, apparently a level three suspension for this kid at six years old would go on his permanent record.

And it would affect him the rest of his life. And the school has has has said that he displays behavior of growing up to being a violent person.

Because of this one incident, not because of anything else.

That's right. Because of this one incident. And now the gun owners of America out of out of Alabama that the area there where I guess their branch that's in Alabama has actually come to defend this child.

Their lawyers, and they've they've told him they've said, Look, we're going to make sure this is not on your record that this does not have any effect on you. And because the other little boy that was playing cops and robbers as well.

He was suspended. Also. Wow.

So, when I hear something like that, my mind immediately goes to, I was actually just talking with a friend of mine this morning, and we were talking about the idea that hyperbole reveals hypocrisy. Hyperbole reveals hypocrisy.

And what I mean by that when I say that is that it's really easy in this little facet to come to a conclusion to say, you know, this boy needs to be suspended because of these reasons, whatever else. But if that if that philosophy of that idea cannot be consistently applied to a situation over here, it reveals the hypocrisy of the situation.

And you even did that you started to do that when you said that had he actually had actually physically accosted somebody bloodied somebody's face with his fist, the punishment consequence wouldn't have been as great.

Right. And the inconsistency just starts to be revealed in the tiniest step away. I mean, we're not even over here using real hyperbole at this moment. We're just pointing out simple, logical facts that show that this ruling on their part makes no sense whatsoever.

Right. And I've been using the word insanity, you know, since since we started talking about this. It is my firm conviction that we as Christians need to get back to a biblical definition of insanity.

You know, the world is talking today about a lot of mental illness, you know, even even conservatives, you know, in the gun debates, talk about how we need to keep guns out of the hand of the people who are mentally ill and so on and so forth.

And that's a really interesting conversation. But from a biblical perspective, we know that the issue is not mental illness. But what's funny is if you step back and you take what the scriptures say about sin, sin is self destructive.

Sin is delusional. Sin is lying to ourselves and accomplishing wicked things under the guise that this is good and healthy. When you describe it that way, that's how the world describes, you know, mental illness or they try to stay away from words like insane nowadays, crazy.

But that's basically the definition of an insane person, somebody who is who is convinced that this thing is good. And as they do it, they're hurting themselves, they're hurting everyone else around them.

There's no fact, there's no logic. That's insanity. But that's exactly what sin is. Sin is insanity. Now I'm not, please understand, and we're going to get into this with the other topics we want to talk about today.

I am not suggesting that sin is a mental disorder. I'm not suggesting that sin is a disease. We are a victim of sin. I'm saying that we need, when we recognize these things, we need to see it for what it is, a product of sinfulness, delusional thinking, not grounded in theological reality.

Because that's exactly what this is. That's exactly what this, and this, this is a very, you know, it's a pretty subtle, not subtle. It's a pretty low key and very, you know, of all the news topics out there, this one isn't as big of a deal as all the other craziness that we see.

But regardless of the fact, it's still, it's evident to the fact that people are not thinking straight. And it's, man, we're hurting ourselves and everyone else because of it.

D says, so he basically got suspended for using his imagination.

Yeah. Like Andrew said, Andrew Graham, he says, if he'd been a girl, he would have been offered testosterone. They would have said, Oh, this little girl, she's, she's actually just a boy and we need to help her.

But yeah. Yeah.

That's right. That's right. All right.

I wouldn't have been surprised. Like, had he not even used his finger guns, the moment you said that he was playing cops and robbers, I thought to myself, oh, he's probably in trouble just because he was playing cops and robbers.

Right.

They probably would have called him a racist or something.

Yeah, no doubt. Or, you know, like, yeah, sorry, defund the police or whatever else. Right.

Pre-Millennialism and the “All-Male” Joke

All right. Now we do have a question for you from John Elvin. He says, question, are you pre male, post male or all male?

I saw that and I was hoping we keep scrolling and it wouldn't come up.

I'm just getting it out of the way.

I'm going to answer the question, but I get to say what I want to say before I answer the question. OK, this is apologetics live. Right. So obviously, you know, those those types of questions come up.

And I'm sure who said that that was that was John. That's right. I'm sure John is not the type of person to do what other people have done. Right. So our goal today, one of things we want to talk about is what is and is not biblical counseling.

Hugely important topic, especially in light of this, this this thing that you this news item that you brought up and so on and so forth. Really important topic. And but people ask questions like that.

And if they don't get the answer they want or they're expecting whatever else, they pretty much discredit everything else the individual is going to say. Like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he's preaching truth or doesn't.

Well, he's this, he's that. So we're not going to listen to him. But John would not do that. I would not do that. And I'm sure nobody on here would do that. So I'll just say that I have I have grown up in the Baptist tradition and consider myself to be pre-millennial.

And but at the same time, I think in my my age and my my my sage experience, that's definitely not a hill I'm going to die on. I think that a lot of really fantastic godly men have disagreed on this for for many reasons for many years.

And I think I would be a fool to say that I know what nobody else knows. But that that has been my my my belief. And here's Andrew. He heard that. He's like, get off the show. We're done with him.

Well, I don't think he would do that because I'm pretty much the only post mill here. And Andrew still allows me to come. Look at that. Yeah. But I guess Andrew just wanted to show us that he was finally on the plane.

Praise God for that. I think he's on the plane.

What Biblical Counseling Is and Why It Is Not the Same as Christian Counseling

Yeah. So now let's get into our topic tonight. What is and is not biblical counseling? Because we see when we look at counseling, right, we see especially in the in the Christian worldview, we would see secular counseling.

But then we see Christian counseling. But then there's also what we would call biblical counseling. And the Christian counseling and the biblical counseling, they're not the same.

True. Yeah. Well, OK, I don't have to throw in a caveat here. Just like everything, every other term, we have to be very careful because there is a there's a vocabulary slide that happens over time. I'm not sure if you know this, but there are some atheist groups that have that have usurped or trying to use the terms born again to their own purposes.

Really? Yeah. I have not heard that.

It's a small group, but this is what this is what Satan tries to do. He tries to take what is God's meaning. Right. And he twists it. The best example of that is the word love. I'm such an powerful. Oh, yeah.

Eternally important concept throughout the scriptures. And I mean, it it doesn't mean anything nowadays and it means everything it shouldn't. So to that end, I will say that whereas before there used to be a very clear spectrum, it's less clear now.

There are people in different places on the spectrum who are calling themselves names that that they would not have called themselves 10, 20 years ago. Generally speaking, though, in the beginning, you had a spectrum with one side.

You had the secular psych psychologists, secular psychiatrists on the other side. So we just said, how do you become a born again atheist? Fantastic question. I don't even want to know because that would be worse than the story we heard about the right.

But you had the secular psychiatrists and psychologists who basically they're approaching man's problems from a what we would call biological perspective. They look at man. And what's funny is that even though psychology basically means the study of the soul, most for most psychologists and psychiatrists nowadays reject the concept of the soul, the immaterial to any degree.

And they believe everything is a biological problem, which is why nowadays so much of that has turned toward medication and the things that have an impact on our biological bodies. Right. On the other side of the spectrum, it started in the 70s, really with J. Adams.

Now, that's unfair. The term the movement started with J. Adams ish. But really, the concept has been ever since, ever since, ever since the very first sin and God dealing with it. The concepts have been there, biblical counseling and biblical counseling looks at it from the perspective that mankind has two main parts.

For those of you who are going to ask, yes, I'm a dichotomous. I'm not a trichotomous. We have we have two parts of us. We have a body and we have a soul, a spirit. I would say I say body spirit and put the two together and you get a soul.

But and so the Bible is very clear that there are biological, physical problems and there are spiritual problems. And you don't ever want to treat one with the other. And what's interesting is that, you know, in heresy and in cults and things like that, you find exactly that.

You've got Scientology and other health and wealth gospels that say, like, if you're physically sick, that is a result of your your lack of faith or sin or something like that. But then you have other groups who say that, well, what God calls sin is actually just a biological problem.

Right. So, of course, Satan's always trying to cross the wires. So that's the spectrum. And traditionally, the the Christian counselor, the Christian psychiatrist was kind of landing somewhere in the middle.

And a term that was often used or is still often used of individuals like this, the integrationists, because they are taking the ideas from both sides and they're integrating them into their own their own position.

And you can have them on lots of different places on this spectrum. Generally speaking, most of the ones with whom I interact and hear about tend to fall closer to this side. They are Christians who just flat out practice human and human psychology, humanistic psychology, or they are professing Christians who, you know, they they use verses and things like that if their counselee professes to be a Christian or religious.

But still, even in those senses, a lot of these people tend to believe that the real fix, the real help is going to come from these biological means from the humanistic perspective. So that's kind of the the spectrum that we're on.

And as a biblical counselor, I would say that I'm I'm all the way over here. But before somebody get on here and say, well, so you just you just ignore biological problems? Well, no. At the very beginning, I was very clear.

The biblical counselor recognizes that there are two parts of us and we need to identify what part needs the treating. And if there is a legitimate biological issue, you deal with it. But if it's a spiritual issue, you don't treat it like it's a biological one.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. So so how would we if someone's coming to. To biblical counseling. Right. And you're counseling someone, what's kind of the first steps you kind of go through in engaging someone?

Collecting Fruit, Evaluating Conversion, and Counseling as Discipleship

So the counseling is approaching. Yeah. So, you know, so tell me about your life. You know, is that kind of how you start or to kind of get a feel for someone to kind of see what kind of direction you're supposed to go?

Well, I can speak specifically for my ministries. Each of our ministries has a counseling arm. Our main counseling arm is Faith Tree Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. And so we're somebody to reach out to us either in person or virtually and to say, you know, I need help.

We have a couple of different things that we do. And generally speaking, it's referred to in the biblical counseling realm as collecting fruit. Right. We're pulling fruit off of this tree to see what's going on.

So that's everything from, you know, basic information about this person, who they are and where they live and everything to what they believe is the main problem. Just trying to gather as much information as possible and a lot of paperwork and a lot of session time can be taken with that because, you know, the more you know, the more you can you can help.

And so there's there's there's a big part of that. However, one of the key things that a biblical counselor is trying to identify as soon as possible is whether or not this individual is truly born again, if they actually have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

And the reason that's that's important is the fact that you can't counsel an unbeliever to the same degree that you can't really disciple an unbeliever. Right. Because they're not a disciple. And biblically speaking, you're not going to find really you're not going to find the idea that the counselor in the sense that we're using it in the scriptures to the same degree.

Yes, you know, we know that God is a counselor and so on and so forth. But in the way that we're using it in the modern context, you're not going to find a lot of these concepts in there. But you see an awful lot about teaching and discipling and so on and so forth, because this concept of biblical counselor really is that it is discipleship.

And in the same way that we want somebody we want to use evangelism to bring somebody to the knowledge and who God is in relationship with him and then disciple him. Now, will I meet with somebody who is not born again and will I spend a number of sessions with them?

I will. I will do so explaining to them that, you know, I'm here for them and I want to be whatever service I can be. However, there's going to be a disconnect because what I believe they need to overcome their problems and have victory is something that they don't believe in.

And as long as this person gives me the opportunity to within the over the course of counseling to to be evangelizing them, to be sharing the gospel with them and drawing them to that truth, I will generally continue as long as they're willing to hear it.

Generally speaking, in those situations, at some point, they're just like, this isn't working for me. And I get it. But once we've established to the best of our ability, obviously, Nancy is the outward appearance, but God sees the heart that this person actually has a relationship with God.

Then, OK, this is this is encouraging because then we know that they can change to the power of the Holy Spirit. They can become who God wants them to be and to pursue change in a lasting, genuine way.

OK. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting that you say you talk about, you know, one of the first things you're trying to find is if this person is a is truly a believer, if they're not a believer, because like you said, if you're if you're trying to counsel a nonbeliever through biblical counseling, there is going to be that disconnect.

And is that disconnect something kind of like I believe I've heard Bodie Bauckham say, you know, modern psychology and counseling is someone trying to tell you all the everything outside of you is the problem.

And then biblical counseling is revealing that there's a sin issue inside of you. And that's the problem that you must change.

So would you see kind of the same way? I do. And I think generally speaking, that's an accurate observation. However, I think there are also, by God's common grace, individuals in the secular psychology realm who who do recognize and it's not super popular.

It is. I take that back. I guess I'll clarify the people in the secular psychology realm who who identify the fact that, no, you really are your worst enemy. What's funny is that that that mantra, that ideology is actually far more popular in the self-help mentorship life coaching realm.

Right. The people who don't have the letters behind their name, they're the ones those those trainers. Right. Who are like, do it. Don't give up. Don't be a quitter. You know, those guys who they're latching on to a really significant truth.

And I do believe that there are secular psychologists out there who realize that, who are honest enough with their counselees to say, no, you're being self-destructive. You're making very bad choices here.

But for the most part in the world in which we live, again, the average individual is interested in hearing that. Just like an unbeliever doesn't want to hear what I have to say about God and their problems.

The average person going for counseling really just wants to hear what they want to hear. In fact, there is a type of counseling. It's it's not as I guess it's not as popular nowadays. But this this form of counseling basically would just sit there.

And the only thing the counselor would say is he would just speak back to the individual, whatever they said, like, I'm having troubles with my dad. He makes me so mad. So your dad makes you mad. Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. And he basically just gives him back because the whole idea was your answer can only be found in you. Nobody can tell you what your problem is or how to fix it. So, yeah. And because our society as a whole is starting to embrace that methodology more and more, that idea that, you know, you're just going to come in here and I'm just going to tell you more of what you want to hear.

Or, you know, like with our little itching ears, we just find that that echo channel, we find that person who believes the way we do. Like who are going to counseling? Yeah. It's what they already thought.

Right. Right.

Cognitive Therapy, Personality Tests, and Why Labels Matter

Now, we do have a question that came in from Julie Abernathy. She says, I just started watching. I'm wondering what you think about using cognitive therapy along with biblical counseling.

So they're probably going to be a lot of questions that come up like this. And this question is by nature an integrative type of a question. It's, well, what if we take this idea from over here and we mix it with this idea from over here?

Does that work? I'm just going to say, generally speaking, across the board, the answer that I'm going to give is no. And the reason I'm going to give that answer is this. Cognitive therapy has a has an understanding, has a meaning, was designed with function and with purpose.

OK. God's word promises that it has everything we need for life and godliness. All right. Now, I don't want to attach myself to this over here because the perfect example is Black Lives Matter. Do I believe that black lives matter?

Yes, I do. Do I want to attach myself to that organization? No, I don't. Right. Cognitive therapy has it is in its nature humanistic. It is. It was a concept that was developed from a secular perspective to fix man's problems outside of the scriptures.

And but people might say, well, but there's this thing that, you know, it works. OK, well, what's working? Why is it working? Is that working going to continue? Is it going to have a lasting spiritual effect?

Is that item that's working necessary within a biblical worldview? Sometimes what you find is that from a biblical perspective, that thing, God, God has been teaching us to do that for thousands of years.

And by God's common grace, some secular psychologist was like, hey, this works when I talk to people. I'm going to call it fill in the blank. So but I say we don't need those labels. We don't need to associate ourselves with that.

We don't need to to potentially give people the wrong impression. You know, if somebody knows what cognitive therapy is and I tell them that I use cognitive therapy, then they're filling in all of this meaning for what it is I'm going to do when in actuality I'm not.

I'm actually just using. And there are some other there are some biblical counseling. I'm not going to name them because I'm hoping that this is this is this is a fad and it's going to change and they'll get back to their roots.

But there's a biblical counseling organization who has always been really solid. But they've started adopting secular terminology to describe the biblical things that they're doing. And I think it's backfiring.

I really do. I don't think it's benefiting them because as people hear them talking, they're hearing the people who know about the psychological jargon are hearing that and they're not hearing the scriptures.

And it sounds like integration. Yeah. So I try not to do that. I try to if the if the Bible speaks on this and the Bible teaches us what to say and how to say it. And that's all we need is God's people.

There's a lot more that can be said on that. But that's generally my position. People ask me, what do you think about Enneagram? What do you think about cognitive therapy? What do you think about shock therapy or whatever it is?

That's generally where I just kind of my caveat cover up. But I will say this. Psychologists as a whole are really good at observing. They do. I mean, they watch people over these long term studies and they track things like, OK, well, we found that people in this scenario tend to do this.

They're fantastic observers, but they're awful prescribers because they prescribe because they don't recognize what the real issue is. Oftentimes they're prescribing from their biological humanistic perspective.

Their observations are accurate, but their prescriptions aren't helpful. So there are observational tools that I like to use. One of them is actually one of my my intake things. One of the very first documents that people get, they get they get this PDI, a personal data inventory, all this information about the situation or whatever else.

But then there's also a questionnaire. And I'll just tell you, this questionnaire is just a basic Myers-Briggs personality test. OK. And the only reason I use it is the fact that I'm meeting this person for the first time.

And generally speaking, when you take 100 people and you ask them a question and they give them an A or B answer. Right. Those people are going to fall generally into four different categories. And you can get a little bit of insight into how this person thinks or how they view certain things just from strictly personality standpoint.

And I'll say the Bible has a lot to say about personality. Sure. Well, I mean, basically is what you do and why you do it.

You know, so it's helpful. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know. I'm not a huge fan of personality tests in terms of planning out for the future. Right. Because because the personality test is only good for that moment, because over time I'm going to grow and I'm going to change.

And, you know, hopefully my thinking changes and it matures. Right. So so I understand taking having someone come in and take that test at that moment. It gives you a spectrum as to where they are right now, when you're seeing them.

Yeah. I'll give you a perfect example. I don't remember exactly the questions on this particular test that describe it. But there there are certain types of people who, again, secular psychologists and doing all of their research and whatever else, have have come to find that certain people who respond to certain things in certain ways tend to be easily swayable, specifically by cults, by by personalities and things like that.

So when I see somebody come in and I'm just glancing, by the way, I mean, really, the personality test, we rarely even discuss it in counseling. It's that's not a big deal. It's really just a thumbnail sketch for me because of this person is like that.

Right. And this person has heard my podcast and they've been listening for years and they finally reach out. And I'm seeing here that this is the type of person who maybe maybe not could be easily swayed for superficial reasons.

Then as I work with them, I kind of I'll work with them from a slightly different way to to to not accidentally, you know, encourage them to accept the things I'm saying for the wrong reasons. I'm very careful.

I always try to be very careful, but little things like that can be helpful. Sometimes this, you know, again, a personality test is is neither here nor there really in the long run. But sometimes I've been able to look back.

There'll be a strange thing that will happen during a session and I'll look back and it'll be it'll be like that. Oh, people who think like this, people like this tend to have such and such reactions to so-and-so.