The Supernatural: Cultish/Blurry Creatures Crossover

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Welcome back to the Blurryverse, Luke. We're doing a mashup today.

We're doing a crossover podcast with the Koltish podcast. And I first heard about you guys from Dr.

Michael Heiser. He was talking about you guys on our episode we did with him. I think it was in the thirties.

We're in the thirty four now. Yeah. We're in like one seventy five, one seventy six now. So we're it's been a while.

We we've been talking forever about doing this mashup. I think of like a year. Yeah. So yeah, the way we the way we kick off our podcast always is what are your thoughts on Bigfoot?

You guys have done episodes on Bigfoot, so maybe you don't want to go there. Well, I'll go there. I don't ask

Andrew if he has any formulated opinion on it. I it's interesting for me. My first exposure to Bigfoot was the infamous

Harry and the Hendersons. You know, so you think about the classic show. I'm an 80s kid. And I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting.

And you kind of I kind of knew about it in passing. I think it's I think there is something to it.

It kind of reminds me of where the UFO conversation was like twenty five, thirty years ago, when most of the time people knew there was something in the sky.

But to go any further than that, I mean, that was kind of reserved for X -Files or whatever subreddits were back then.

I don't even know what like what was this? What was a Reddit thread like back 30 years ago? Yeah, it was like a chat room on America.

It was an it was an Angel Fire website. Right. Yeah. It was like there's it's interesting because,

I mean, there's a similarity where there's a lot of people who tangibly have independent, you know, witness that they've had some interaction with something that typically is, you know, in a forest and kind of like the northern hemisphere, for example, a lot of times, but very different where like UFOs will show up around like desert or desert terrains or bodies of water, which we'll definitely talk about when it comes to UFO disclosures.

But yeah, I think there's also something to it in the sense to where there is sort of like a spiritual component where, you know, a lot of times, you know, as we'll talk about, usually the close encounters of the first, second and third kind, even fourth kind eventually lead to close encounters of the fifth kind, which is, you know, by way through occultic practices.

So, yeah, I think it's I don't have a fully formulated opinion. I think it's tangible.

I don't think you could just explain it away like this is just something that people are all sort of making up in their heads.

I think there's something really tangible to it. I mean, when I was talking with Dr. Ray Bechet and my friend

Sarah, you know, both of them are avid believers in Bigfoot and they have a very level headed approach to it.

So, yeah, I think there's some tangibility. I think I have a lot to further explore the topic, but it's definitely fascinating.

Yeah, we've interviewed probably, I don't know, 40, 50 doctors at this point on the show, and only a few have no thought, have no thoughts on Bigfoot.

Most famously, Tim Mackey, The Bible Project. That was one of my favorite answers. He's like, well, and we loved him, but he was like,

I haven't really thought about it. I'm like, dude, you live in Portland. You're like in the apex of the vortex, man.

Like, you haven't thought about, you know, at least gone to the store and seen all the memorabilia and been like, man, maybe

I should think about there's something running around. That's what he said. He said that maybe I should have thoughts on Bigfoot. Maybe I should have thoughts on it, but yeah, usually people have thought.

I love what you said, Jeremiah. I think they're, and that's kind of where we've come on in our journey is that there are two very, very opinionated camps in the

Bigfoot world. And you are either in one where this is like a hundred percent, you know, an undocumented primate or unclassified, unfilomized, whatever you want.

You know, it's a primate out there and it's a hundred percent an animal and it's just very, very elusive. And then you have this other camp that's called the

Woo, right? And they don't like each other at all. And that's stuff that you learn as you go along in this.

And Nate, you know, they spent 10 ,000 hours remodeling houses, listening to Bigfoot podcasts. And that's sort of the genesis for our podcast was just like, they're starting to be, as Nate said, they're being theologians that came on these shows.

And you're like, that's a weird thing to have. And you know, for a hairy, you know, a hairy creature in the woods, but there's this other camp that says there's something very supernatural or wooish is the term about this thing, because there are enough stories anecdotally that this thing, you know,

I don't know, associated with UFOs, you know, vanishing in front of people's eyes.

Like not just like you look away and it's gone, like it's just gone in front of your eyes or trying to sight it up in a gun, and then it disappears and sort of dematerializes.

And you go, that's those are, you know, those are anecdotal stories. But you know, if one is Dr. Michael Heiser, who was, you know, on our show a couple times said, like, if just one of those is true, then it changes the entire paradigm because you have to have to consider what's really happening.

And there's something weird. And there's something very weird about it. And also it's the, it's the, it's the most popular one, right?

It's the, yeah, I don't know. Sports analogy doesn't be like, it's like the, the

New England Patriots of cryptids, but all the Patriots aren't any good anymore. So it's like the chiefs of cryptids right now, right?

Where it's the most popular one and all the, all the kids are buying the Jersey. So. Yeah. Did you, what is, well, with your guys' interest in Bigfoot, for example, did that start like before the podcast or just come about by way of people initially, you started to see a consistent people giving opinions on it.

So you gave it more of a focus or what was the cause for you guys to have an interest in it? Or even this podcast, the podcast you guys do?

Well, we are episode one, we call it Bigfoot's the gateway drug. And, uh, it really is because it's, it's, it's the most popular, like Luke said, it's people see it more than anything else.

And it's just weird enough to be sort of like, you can, you can dabble in Bigfoot. You can, you can still be kind of credible.

Like I said, like all these doctors have thoughts on Bigfoot. They don't, it's not like so niche or so out of the box that people are afraid to talk about it.

Like the UFO thing used to be that way, but in the last few years, now it's not, everyone's talking about it. But I think for me, it was 2011, 2012,

I went from playing music full -time, being in a band with, you know, with people all day long to being by myself and remodeling some houses, trying to figure out what's next in life.

And I just, Bigfoot was the right amount of weird and the right amount of interesting. So I just got sucked into it.

And it was always the hunters and the cops and the military that were telling their stories about, and I just thought, man,

I don't think these guys are lying. What the heck is this thing? And I just got sucked into more and more of it.

And then I got into the missing 411 stuff with David Paulides about national parks and state parks, people going missing.

I started listening to him on coast to coast. And then around five, six years later, after I watched all the documentaries and I was really down that rabbit hole, then

I started hearing theologians coming on podcasts, talking about the Nephilim. And I grew up in the church.

I grew up in Campus Crusade, Young Life. I worked at a camp. No one ever talked about this. And it answered, it just really was like, wow, how come nobody's talked about this before?

So then I was like, I think there's a connection here. There's this, there's this weird paranormal stuff the church isn't talking about.

And there's this theological thread that ties in my whole upbringing and my faith and came up with the name blurry creatures, had the logo and the website ready to go for a while.

And then Luke was tweeting about Bigfoot one day. And we had, we'd done a podcast on an episode together on another podcast.

And we had a bunch of mutual friends. And I was like, and I know Luke used to have a podcast with his brother. And I was like,

Hey man, I got this thing ready to go. We know the same folks. We're kind of casual friends.

I think there's this weird thread, Bigfoot and theology and Christianity that I think it could be something.

What do you think? He's like, I'm in. And he was a hundred percent in. And then we started talking about Bigfoot in the beginning, but quickly it got into all the blurry creatures, which is everything from UFOs, aliens, giants, skinwalkers, wendigo, all the weird stuff.

And it just got, we just sort of got, I think we jumped into a stream and it just kind of took us where it was going to go.

And I don't think really had a lot of say in the matter. Yeah. And I think that, but we always wanted to, you know, being

Christians, our goal was to, because that's our foundation in our worldview was to filter all that back through, through the biblical paradigm, biblical lens and, and, and try to understand it.

Because I think the more that we got into this guy is more figured that, that people have odd and strange and paranormal experiences and Christians do.

And there's this some sort of knee -jerk reaction a lot of times for people that, that somehow something that is outside the realm of their explanation or what the church talk about will disqualify their faith or shake their faith.

And, and I think not knowingly kind of just being two guys that stumbled into it in some ways, we wanted to try to provide better answers for, for hard questions.

Maybe questions don't even have, they don't have answers. We don't know, we don't know exactly what's going on with the UFO thing until one lands on a, you know, on the white house lawn, as someone famously says, right.

Or we don't, we won't exactly know what's going on with Bigfoot until someone bags one and, you know, I don't think that's ever going to happen, but you know, pulls one out, pulls it out of the forest per se, right.

You don't have these answers, but what you can do is, is talk to people that put in 10 ,000 hours and, and, and come from a, most, most of our guests come from a commonality in faith and try to, and try to provide better answers that frankly fit, you know, there's a, we look at our

Bibles as Christians, there's so much weird stuff in there that I think a lot of times it gets glossed over because it, one, it becomes, it's uncomfortable maybe.

And two, it isn't the most, it isn't the most conducive to a five -part sermon on Sundays, right. So it's easier to skip over some of that stuff than to try to address it, especially, you know, especially being so separated in time from, you know, from a

Middle Eastern culture where these scriptures were written, you know, 4 ,000 years ago, right.

We are sometimes just in some ways, prisoners of our, you know, of our separation in time.

And so we're just trying to go back and understand some of these things and, and, and, and then pull common threads. And so I don't think it was intentional.

I always had an interest in Bigfoot on my end. You used to watch Finding Bigfoot and they never found anything, you know, spoiler alert, sorry.

They're not going to, they don't find anything, right. But yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I always find it like the concept of thinking about, well, what was life like before Christ died on the cross and resurrected, like it says in Colossians, that he disarmed all rulers, principalities, and powers through his death, burial, and resurrection.

Meaning I think that within the worldview that we operate today, especially coming out of like a

Renaissance post -enlightenment period, we're very materialistic people, even as Christians that we often forget that the

Bible is full of wonder, right. And full of enchantment. It makes me like, just think about how interesting or even more paranormal the world may have been prior to the sacrifice of Christ.

Cause I think that had paranormal effects all throughout time, especially if we're talking about what could be preternatural or supernatural entities, like let's say

Bigfoot and not seeing very many of them around today, but they're elusive, but maybe these things, there was a lot of them at one point of time, you know?

Which is something interesting to think about. But I have a really interesting question for you guys. Cause you're talking about Bigfoot. I've never really heard about the, the, the, you know, how he can just disappear and like things like that.

Is there any relation to like the Loch Ness monster with that too? Like the Loch Ness monster kind of disappear sometimes that it could be some preternatural type of entity or being.

I, it's funny cause I'm editing this week's episode about guy on a military base and he had a

Bigfoot, uh, his best friend had an encounter on the base and older guys were tired, high security clearance.

And it comes on the base, comes on the runway, you know, and this guy's doing the patrols because he got aircraft coming in at night and he, he flips on code 17.

Everyone comes out of the base and they track this thing into the, into the woods and then it just disappears. It's just gone.

No, I mean, they track it. So get this, they track it to a ditch where, and these guys were all live, like, you know, all their weapons are live.

He, as he said, there's a bunch of 20 year olds with automatic weapons that are, that have cornered what it's intruder.

Right. And this guy is, is freaked out saying, man, this wasn't a person. Right. But they, they get into a ditch where it's cornered and they have, they actually have motion sensors on the

Hill behind it. And then kind of a rabbit, rabbit sent, uh, will set off these motion sensors.

So they had a many false alarms from like little tiny animals setting this off. He's, there's no way it could have got out without us seeing it or, or tracking it.

And it just, it's like it's gone, which though is, it's just one, that's one story, right?

And that's just, yeah, that's just as weak. There's a ton of these where there's this like sort of dematerializing, right?

Well, there's, there's stories about people raising up a shotgun and these things on their porch and then it's gone. It's not, they look away.

It's not that that's like the, it was a blink of an eye. It's just, it just is gone. And again, right. These are people's stories.

So, but there's enough of them where you go, Hey, there's got to be something to this.

There's something to this. Right. And then, and then, and then you get all the other really odd stuff like orbs and even people with the

UFO connection and you go, I, and this is just me. I tend to start to start to lean towards, maybe there's some interdimensionality like, and this is, you know, obviously you get in the weeds with this kind of stuff, but scientifically you talked about scientific, right?

We live in this empirical era where everything is measured. And, and, and that's why we, when things are called supernatural or even the miraculous didn't, we did an interview on miracles with Dr.

Craig Keener. And if these things, all it means is just, it's something that happens. It's outside of the natural order, right?

It breaks the natural laws. And so these things will happen, these sort of anomalous things. And you know, how do you quantify that?

And that is, is hard, but there's enough of this. You go, if one of these is true, then we have to reconsider.

And we know that mathematically, if you, you know, if you buy mathematics as a, as a solid foundation or a solid, a practice that, that they, they're there, they can mathematically prove something on a, on a, on a measure of like 11 dimensions, right?

These, and so if we go down quantums in that, in that way, then you go, okay, well, there's, we know there's other dimensions mathematically, we can prove this.

So if that's the case, then do we have something that's able to, you know, I think you get into weird, weird conversations, but maybe it makes sense.

Like, you know, if, if God, God lives outside of time, right? And that's a,

I like how we get into a crazy dimensional conversation, but there, there, there is a, there's something there.

And well, Heiser put it really good on episode we did with him. He said, you know, like, I, he's like, I, I'm fully, I believe in science, but science can only tell us what happens in, in, you know, our three dimensions.

But the Bible says there's another realm in science. You can't, you know, you can't use science to explain the other realm.

And he, he had a really good way of like saying that, you know, on earth, we can taste, touch and smell things.

And that's what science can tell us about, but there's this other realm that science can't explain.

And so the weird part about our show is there's a physicality to all of this.

So there's a physicality to UFOs and people retrieving these, whether it's, you know, metals that don't exist here or craft or parts or anti -gravity, you know, stories of interacting with the technology.

It's, it's very strange. And then Bigfoot gets shot sometimes and leaves hair on footprints, footprints, famously.

Yeah. And there's a, you know, there are people who've done genetic studies on it and it comes back unknown.

That's the hard part is it's, it's, it's sort of here, but sort of not here. And I think that's why we haven't pulled one out of the woods because we're not dealing with just normal, you know, undocumented animal here.

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Yeah, no, it's interesting too, is that, I mean, from us, like we both come from, Andrew and I, we both come from the reform background.

I think one of the challenges that we've had, like with our podcast too, is just really trying to really make an emphasis on like the unseen realm is like a real tangible thing that scripture talks about.

And I think some of it, you know, with the reform camp and just sometimes people in general we've seen from our podcast and people that we've interacted with, you know, the same thing too with the

Renaissance and enlightenment period. I think there's sort of a prejudice towards materialism, but then we take those prejudices and we sort of take a prejudice towards the material versus the material that we can't see with our naked eye.

And I think that's one of the challenges that the church as a whole has. So one of the, I mean, obviously the world's crazy right now, but one of the most amazing things is that, you know, people who are heavily involved in the new age and the alcohol, like that's exploding, but there's also tons and tons of people that we've interviewed who've come to Christ out of the new age, but they all have these crazy experiences that because they've gone, they've explored the supernaturals in ways that God says that's off limits, you know, like Isaac would even say to like,

God's not trying to be a killjoy. You know, he has ways to experience him, like in God's presence, there's fullness of joy, right.

But there's people who experienced in a way that God says, don't do that. You're going to open yourself up to things that are not, that are going to be spiritually dangerous to you.

But a lot of times people will come out of the new age, say they've astral projected, or they had, you know, some sort of situation where they're, they're experiencing like an abduction, like an actual, like alien abduction.

They call out to Jesus and the abduction stops. They're like, well, what was that? And that leads them to go to a

Bible. And then they, by way of that, they become converted. They come to Christ. But there's a lot of churches where if a new age or came and told them their legitimate story, they would probably find some ways to explain it away and say, no, that's just all in your head, you know?

And that's a real challenge. And so I've, I've gotten to the point where a couple of years ago, you know, like,

I feel like almost like conversation we have is a total normal thing. And it's fun. There's a couple of years ago, if someone would come up and told me that like some sort of story or experience like that,

I would be very much having a willing suspension of disbelief. But now it doesn't surprise me.

I think I had a conversation with a lady who was, I was talking to her and she's talking about her being a

Bernie man. And that came by way of me talking to her saying, well, you know, are you, are you using psychedelics?

And I said, well, so what's it like to contact those green entities at three o 'clock in the morning? And she was taken back that I told her that.

And I, and she, she admitted to that and I believed her, but I use it as a catalyst to be able to share the gospel with her.

So I think when you actually acknowledge the reality around for the lens of scripture, it's a really powerful, apologetic.

What are your thoughts, Andrew? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's something that we do need to think about as Christians as being thinking people, critically thinking people and dwelt by the

Holy spirit, right. It's nothing that we should be, you know, afraid of to even think about that it could somehow destroy our faith.

And I understand that it's, people can struggle with things that they don't have answers for, but what's funny as being a

Christian, we're the most supernatural people in a sense that we believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ actually had physical ramifications, but not just that, but an actual spiritual ramification that I was dead in my trespasses and sins.

And now I've been brought to life. Like that's a, that's a supernatural experience that any Christian ultimately has gone through.

But in terms of what could be considered blurry, I'm just, I'm just wondering too.

And with the, with the lockdex monster, cause I want to know, are there like any types of what is it like eyewitness accounts to where maybe it's like disappeared or something like that?

I know it's in a Lake, but even bringing it back to Bigfoot, is there like some similar, like cohesive line of evidence that shows that a lot of these like cryptic cryptic cryptic,

I think I'm saying it wrong cryptid type animals, like sometimes can just materialize and dematerialize. I think

I'm really interested. Well, the skin Walker, Wendigo stuff is in Bigfoot and even modern day werewolf sightings are in that space.

I think, I think Loch Ness is just like a remnant of like most people think it's just a

Plesiosaurus. It's just this dinosaur that, you know, or water animal that just can go underwater for days on end and comes out in the night and appears to people.

There's not a lot paranormal that I've, I've researched quite a bit about it. It's interesting, but it's also spoofed.

It's a little boring. It also makes it like tough to wade through. Right. Because we know people have spoofed it, but I do think that there's a lot of, some of the immaterial things are, are fascinating.

Also honestly have are, are a lot associated with the occult too. When you talk about skin walkers and when you talk about even werewolves and the like, and those things are, are very demonic.

And there's a very, there's a very bizarre set of circumstances. Yeah. They stick in your head a little bit more because they're so terrifying.

It's hard not to, you know, it's like a scary movie. You remember, you know, there's just certain, there's a certain flair that just, it just sticks out at you, especially the

Bigfoot stories too. The ones that are just really weird are the ones you remember. And the ones that are just like, oh, it came out and left or like it popped his head out of the water and went down.

It's like, there's not a whole lot to go on. It doesn't really, but it's the paranormal stuff that really starts to get your wheels turning.

Like, wait, gotcha. There's no occultic people trying to summon Loch Ness. I mean, that's the right part of the part of the local wizards of the

Scottish wizards. You know, they cast a protective spell. Napoleon knows about that, but yeah.

Yeah. No, I mean, people wanted us to do episodes on that. And I think we're just, we'll probably come around to it at some point, but for now it's, it's a little bit, it's just not weird enough to really, yeah,

I get you. I get you. What about, what about those stick with the weird stuff? Yeah. What about the modern day werewolf thought that you guys get into?

I've never heard of anything like that before. Tell me what, what is a werewolf then? They call them dog man.

And it's basically just like exactly how you would see it in your mind. It's just like a, like a werewolf creature that, that sort of more terrorizing.

See Bigfoot has neutral encounters, but dog man, these werewolf creatures.

I mean, it goes all the way back. There's a, there's a famous story of the beast of Jevedon in France. It was like terrorizing the community and killed a bunch of people.

And that's well -documented, but I mean, these, there's, there's people that have broken it down that there's like multiple types of these things.

There's spiritual ones. And then there's actual like a physical creature out there too. That's, that's, it walks on two legs.

It looks like a dog. It, it, it's, it's stuff out of nightmares. And we have a good friend who has, his name's

Tony Merkel. He's did a documentary on the dog man. Um, he's kind of the dog man guy.

We, uh, he spoke at our conference and we, you know, we, we, we chat a lot off the, you know, on the phone about stuff like this, but it's, it's, it's, it's the creepiest one.

Yeah. Like that and Wendigo is a skin Walker stuff. They're all kind of together. I don't know. Some people say that they're shape -shifting and that's possible.

That's the crazy part about that too, is there's a lot of ritual stuff, right? Like where there's, this is stuff that happens.

You know, we talked to John Redbird Dover, who was the, he was a Navajo ranger for 30 years and he has really fascinating stories.

Things happen on the res, which I mean, wild stuff. Right. Um, yeah. And I mean, it seems very, very incredible in these accounts and their, and their bananas.

Right. But the, but the talk, there's a lot of, we've done enough talking about this note. There are apparently like satanic ritual, demonic ritual things that they can have, that people can sort of access this sort of,

I don't know, sounds crazy shape -shifting, but this is what supposedly happens with, with like a skin

Walker is it's, it's, there's human sacrifice involved and there's these really horrible things that people do in order to access this ability.

Did you ever see that eighties movie silver bullet? Oh, that rings a bell. It was with that Corey Haim.

He was in it. No, but I've seen Teen Wolf. Yeah. Well, there's this crappy,

I mean, we're, we kind of have an eighties, uh, uh, flair on our show. It's how we market the show, but, um, you know, it, they all sort of looked the same.

Everyone says they kind these red glowing eyes, they have this dog face and it's just, it, it just, you experience pure terror when you see it.

And I've heard so many different stories. There's actually a podcast called, uh, uh, I think it's just dog man encounters or something like that.

And I listened to that for a while and I had to stop listening to it because those, those encounters were so terrifying.

I was like, I got to get back to big foot. This is just, this is way too much while I'm by myself fixing up in the basement or something, fixing up a house.

I just creep myself out. But, uh, yeah, man, I, I don't know. I don't know what they are, but they're just one of many blurry creatures out there and, and, uh, never good.

Yeah. Let me, let me ask you this cause I'm curious because like I said, the blue, like the blurry creature world is that's where we've only barely tapped into a little bit.

We usually deal with the Colts and new age topics. I mean, UFO is kind of our strong suit, but, um, we think like with all the encounters, you think of somebody who's experienced something traumatic and they see something that they don't really recognize, but it's like they, but they would use things around their environment to describe it, you know?

So do you think, you think what the, like a lot of these eyewitnesses of people who've had encounters with these different blurry creatures, whether it's big foot or even these other accounts of saying like a werewolf or, you know, just any of those categories, you think that's something that they're tangibly actually seeing, or it might be something where they're so it's something that if the case is supernatural and demonic, it's so terrifying.

The only thing they're trying to utilize to describe it is to make, describe it using their surroundings, the things they do understand to explain what they don't understand.

Like how, where do you think that, where do you think that falls in that category when it comes to people who've experienced these encounters, regardless of the creature?

I think, I think it reminds me of like our episode with Tim Albarino. He's a, he's sort of modern day

Nia Jones guy. We went to, we just went to Peru with him and his whole thing is like, he tries to put things in physical terms.

Like maybe aliens are just angels flying around and there's stories in the Bible where they have to get from point

A to point B. So why, we have this very spiritualized version of everything that isn't, isn't humanity, but a lot of people come on our show say there was this interaction between humans and angels and their offspring were giants.

Right. And that's, that's sort of the biblical account in Genesis 6 that a lot of people talk about on our show.

And you have two camps. You have people who say that's impossible. There's no way because they bring all this preconceived ideas of what an angel is because they've been taught sort of this medieval, you know, modern perspective of this, but they don't have an ancient one.

And so I think a lot of times the physicality of things that we don't understand, we spiritualize it.

Oh, you know, like angels are just this chubby things flying around with wings. What if they're a lot, what if they're a lot like us?

Because a lot of people encounter them. They call them the Nordics or the tall blondes. And they encountered them in Sodom and Gomorrah and different parts of the

Bible. Like, why do we have this? They're like see -through spiritual things that don't have any physical physicality to them.

So I think when you go, that's kind of where we started with the show, kind of go back and sort of get a real raw sort of alternate history and go into some of these topics.

And then you kind of, and you kind of move it up to a modern day that, you know, I believe that all flesh was corrupted.

It wasn't just like a physical rebellion or a moral rebellion. It was, I mean, it wasn't just a moral rebellion. It was a physical, spiritual, technological.

The ancients were rebelling every single way they could. And I think, I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they were taking

God's creations and they were making chimeras and they were doing all kinds of things to just destroy anything that God made and had the image of God in them.

And I still think there's some remnants today because we interviewed so many people who have these encounters. So I think,

I think this stuff is more physical than spiritual, to be honest. I think people say they run into giants in Afghanistan.

People say they run into Bigfoot in places you would never expect. Like, what's it doing in, you know, near a city?

What's it, you know, why are these things so close to humans sometimes? And you can't just spiritually explain it all away.

And I think a lot of people want to do that. But I do think some of the, the Wendigo Skinwalker stuff and like demonic stuff is more in the spirit realm.

It's a spirit that's being manipulated. But some of these other things are just, they're like, they're like a chimera.

They're like a half and half. They're, there's some, there's some blend between the physical and the spiritual that, that we can see, touch, it leaves evidence, those kinds of things.

So it's, from a scientific perspective, you can say that there is evidence for this. But then there are other creatures that, that can just wisp away.

And I think a lot of the UFO encounters, it's like they can manipulate the laws of nature and they can just, maybe they don't disappear.

Maybe they just bend gravity and you can't see it, right? And maybe some of these other creatures can do that too.

And they're still there, but you just can't perceive them. And then, uh, Like the predator, right?

Yeah, exactly. I wish I could, I wish I could impersonate that clicking predator sound like that.

You know, everyone knows that. Everyone knows that one sound, which I was actually surprised the recent, you guys see the recent movie, the recent movie,

Pray? No. Oh, okay. It was the most updated, like predator movie on Hulu. It was surprisingly like enjoyable, which

I was really surprised by. Can we get a review by Matthew McConaughey? It was all right.

It was all right. All right. All right. Um, but check this, this is a, when you talk about like the ancient world, I think this is interesting,

Andrew, I don't know if you know the story, but, uh, like our pastor, you may know him, Jeff Durbin, he's under our studio, he's our pastor.

But, um, in the early days of our church, he was a pastor at addiction recovery center called Calvary addiction recovery center.

And so he was just helping people who were coming out of addiction. And, uh, he had actually gotten a call from the history channel and they're looking to do a special on the whole history of drug use.

And he ended up getting an interview and turns out the interview was Dean Norris who played Hank Schrader from breaking bad. So if you actually look up, uh,

Jeff Durbin, breaking bad Dean Norris, you actually interview with him and he was just asking him about the whole history of drug use.

And, you know, in the documentary, it's on the history channels, it was called the stoned ages. And it was just about the whole history of people utilizing, you know, different drugs throughout the years, whether it's like some sort of psychedelic or something of that nature.

And, and really honestly, a lot of it's like, man, there's really nothing new under the sun. People taking psychoactive substances to get into an older state of conscious to contact an entity.

Like you saw that depicted in the movie 300, you know, you have, they want to get the word from the high priest.

So they have this one lady very promiscuously take a psychedelic and she does what she does to get in contact with something.

That's, that's the message that the high priest has. So you have that, right? You have the Oracle and then, and also even like a lot of modern movies, there's a lot of things that are depicting like real realities, like the doctor, the doctor strange movies.

The second one, there's a huge, there's a big point in the, in the very pivotal moment where a large place where a scene takes place in the whole movie is this temple that's up in the high places.

And so this is like a Disney secular company that's making these, you know, these movies and people can say what you have about Disney and how they're just burnt, you know, they're losing money and every other movie is bombing at the box office.

But, but Dr. Strange, what's articulated in the second Dr. Strange movie, this temple up in the high places, they're, they're tapping into something that's real intangible.

And even at the end of the Dr. Strange movie, when he all of a sudden it's very animated and it's, this isn't what you'd see in real life.

You see like a third eye go on his forehead. So you do see a lot of real modernization or sort of like a resurgence, you know, of the occult or as, as a,

I believe it's a Peter Jones who gave the term like neo -paganism. It's basically pagan, ancient paganism repackaged for today.

And so a lot of times, like what we see, you know, and stuff that we've explored, like, man, this is new, but it's also, it's not new.

Like even the UFO conversation, there's a lot of times when you look at all the modern day disclosure option things, and it's very politically charged, you know, a lot of times people will disavow it because it's the

Biden administration that's dealing with the disclosure thing when it was Trump just four years ago.

But the reality is the idea of objects in the sky moving in ways that defy the laws of physics.

This has been something that's been going on for a long time. There's a reason why in Renaissance paintings, you see pictures of circular like objects up in the sky.

And so like one of the things I realized too, like as a Christian is that, you know, when you look at these things, whether it's somebody who's had some sort of encounter, whether it's like a blurry creature, or in this case, you know, looking at the conversations surrounding a

UFO sighting, whether it's Dr. Stephen Greer or Commander David Fraser, who was flying, you know, an

F -16 and saw this tic -tac encounter. Well, all these things are happening in God's world.

So like Walter Martin would say in his book, The Kingdom of the Occult, like all things are created by, whatever is going on, this is existing in God's world where all things were created by Christ and for Christ.

So we need to be able to figure out, we can't just stick our heads in the sand. Like we have to be able to wrestle through and figure out what these things are.

I think it's interesting is that, the case you're making is something we've talked about on our show.

We've talked about how we actually made a case that atheism is dying out. And I think you make an interesting point, like this rise of the new age and neopaganism.

I think we're reaching a time in this timeline where people have a hunger for spirituality, whatever you want to call it.

People will tell you they're spiritual, right? But there's this, I really believe there's this movement now that people are going to, or are looking for something to believe in.

I think that's why we see the popularity of ancient aliens, for one, which is completely, the

Anunnaki and all that thing. It's this explanation for, in a lot of ways, like you say, it's nothing new, right?

It's this alternative explanation for our creation. It sounds a lot like the

Anumalish and the serpent being on the top and serpent being the creator of God and all this. It's not new, but I think we're moving in this space where people will, because of the things that are happening and because of the atmosphere and the mainstream talking points, and even what people are seeing, the

UFO disclosure thing, people are moving to a point where they want to believe in something and not believe in nothing, right?

It's really led to a crazy rise of the new age. You talk about psychedelics, just listen to the discourse that's happening in mainstream about the mainstreaming of psychedelics now.

Joe Rogan is one of those big proponents of that, and they're normalizing this. And you made a great point, and this is exactly where we feel as well, is that this is an access point to the supernatural realm, and it's not how we're supposed to do it.

It's not the way that God intended it. We're supposed to access God through the channels that he has ordained and created for us, be it worship, prayer, fasting, those things that he has said, these are the ways, right?

It's not because God doesn't want us to meet with him and experience him, because this is the way that he's designed it, right?

But there are these other ways around, right? And these things are massively exploding. And the irony, and we've done a couple of shows, is that people are seeing the same things.

And so, if this is really just some experience in your brain, then why is everyone seeing machine elves? Why is everybody having these experiences with the same kind of entities behind this, right?

If everyone's having their own journey in their mind on ayahuasca or psychedelics,

DMT, whatever, right? Then, I mean, that to me says they're playing, talking about astral projection, all these weird things.

They're accessing something they're not supposed to do in a way they're not supposed to do it. And the people are hungering for this.

And I feel like that's why you guys are cultish, right? I think that's why we're seeing the

UFO cult thing and the new age thing and all these different belief systems that really are just repackagings of really old things, as you talked about, whether you want to go all the way to the oracles of Delphi and even back to the golden age, as we talk about pre -flood, when people were worshiping the gods of old, whether it be

El and Baal and all these old, old entities.

They're good at marketing, right? They're just remarketing themselves. Well, I was going to say the lust for knowledge is the original deception, and I don't think it's gone anywhere.

And I think that we made a strong case on our show that human beings got all this occult knowledge from somebody, something.

We didn't just make this stuff up. We didn't just wake up one day and have all this. How do we know how to mine metals?

How do we know to go to war? How do we know how to rebel against God? We were taught how to do that. And there's a lot of support in the

Bible that shows us that, yeah, human beings learned. We're not psychedelics. Have you ever looked into the process of how to activate

DMT? How did they learn? How do we know? How in the world did you have to take this plant, and then you got to cook it, and then you got to do something else to it, and then you got to make a tea, and then you got to activate it this way.

It's like Betty Crocker, right? And it seems to me that it seems just way too complicated for you to be like, hey, by the way,

I can grab every plant in my backyard. I've got an acre and a half here, and I can mess it all up, and I'm not going to come up with that.

And I don't want to discredit... Humanity is very ingenious, and we do a lot in what

God has given us and our abilities, but there are some things that are just like, man, that... Yeah, we were just in Peru, and we were seeing all this ancient construction that is beyond what human beings can build today.

We can't replicate it now, which is just... We don't know how they did it. And there's these little clues that the ancient world was way weirder and way more in rebellion towards God than I think we can even imagine.

And you want to know what these creatures are, where they come from, and why they do what they do. It's kind of like we're sort of...

We get into alternate history a lot. Yeah, and there's definitely lots of rabbit holes you can go down that route.

I think what's also fascinating is that when you do look at... There is sort of a danger, because like Stephen Bankars, he's been a...

He wrote the book. He did some stuff with Heiser as well too, and he wrote the book Second Coming of the New Age, is that he got into the

New Age by way of ancient aliens. And so not to say that they're exploring some real tangible topics, but he didn't really have any

Christian... He grew up in a Christian household. He didn't really have any sort of answers as far as how to give an account for that.

But I do think it's... What's fascinating to me, and Andrew, I'll get your thoughts on this too, is that if all that's true, and you were talking on the phone on Saturdays for a little bit before we did this little collab, is that with all that you guys saw in Peru and these ancient civilizations and how they're intact, if all that is really true, and that's really they were in contact with higher beings, whatever you want to call them, it does seem that the scripture where it talks about how

God makes the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, where you have all these civilizations, for example, like with advanced technology that are super highly evolved because they're tapped into things.

You look at even the Aztecs and the movie Apocalypto, even in how those temples were shamed, those ideas really didn't come out of vacuum, especially when you look at the whole history of human sacrifice and things like that.

But honestly, when you look at, okay, this person gets born in a manger, fully God, fully man, is born in a manger, lives a super humble life, and is crucified on a

Roman cross. That sort of entrance, and he makes a full conquest over all principalities and powers that are empowering all these other kingdoms with all this other architecture.

I mean, on some level, it puts a lot more depth and gravitas to what

Christ did. What do you think about that? Andrew, do you have any thoughts on that?

Because I think I'd like to hear your thoughts. Yeah, I've been working through some of these questions myself because it's not typically the realm of thought

I dabble in, but I listened to a podcast called The Theology Pugcast.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with that, but there's an episode called The Return of the Old Gods, and they go into a conversation about a book someone had written talking about Baal, the

Asherah, and things of that nature where, how do we handle in this world today after Matthew 28, 18 through 20, where Jesus is saying, all authority on heaven and earth has been given to me, go therefore.

Heaven and on earth, right? And then in Psalm chapter two, where it says that all the nations are going to come essentially to obey

Christ, lest they be crushed. So thinking about our history or history of the nations making covenant with God, the

God of the Bible, right? After the cross, how do we handle it today when we think about these things have been defeated in the past?

Say there were these powers that had extreme amounts of power ruling over the nations.

I know you mentioned Daniel chapter 10 earlier. I think that's when Gabriel comes to Daniel and he's like, sorry,

I was the Prince of Persia. Yeah. Yeah. Well, an angel comes to Daniel. He's like, I'm sorry, I was held up.

There was someone fighting with the spirit over the Prince of Persia. Yeah. So say that's prior to Christ.

How are we supposed to think about that in the realm we live in today where Christ is King encompassing all spheres over heaven and on earth?

Like, are we seeing like a rebellion essentially to Christ within the world we're seeing today?

And people are trying to dabble within all of these spiritual experiences, yet they don't have the same power or level or magnitude as they had before.

Cause I'll be honest with you. Like I go out to a Planned Parenthood every single Wednesday and I plead for the life of unborn children.

And I say, mothers, fathers, please do not murder your children. Right. But it seems like there's something blinding them sometimes.

And if we think about old gods of past, we can think about Moloch and people did the same thing. They sacrificed their children on the altar of Moloch, a statue made of brass that was hollowed out and fire was put underneath it to glow his hands.

And they would put the babies on the hands and they beat the drums to drown out the screams of the babies. Like these are things that really happened in the past.

And it's like, well, how, how am I trying to think about the power that Christ has today?

And what's going on with the rebellion of people and the breaking of the covenant that the nations had made with Christ?

Does that, does that make sense? Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a great question. I've thought about that a lot on our show too. Like the difference between like, you know,

I asked guys like Heiser, like, what is it, what exactly happens in your opinion on the cross? You know, and he talks a lot about the transfiguration, how he goes on the mountain and he shines and he takes just three disciples with him.

And then there's this, this, this last miracle that's, you know, before he goes to the cross and it's, it's, it's sort of glossed over by a lot of Christians.

And I think, I think it's a complicated, we, we, we go into that a lot on our show.

I think all I can say is we've learned a lot. Like when I was a kid, I grew up thinking idols could be anything, you know, you watch too much football, that's an idol.

And I think that's just like a very silly Christianese answer because ancient people weren't worshiping stones.

They were worshiping entities that inhabited these things. So they do their child sacrifice and all this other stuff.

And then an entity would come into whatever they were worshiping. It wasn't that they were stupid and they were walking around banging sticks together and worshiping a tree.

They got something from their exchange. And I think we've talked a lot about this on the show, that ancient people weren't stupid.

The gods of Egypt were giving them something. They were sacrificing their children willingly because they were receiving something.

It wasn't the God of Israel. It wasn't, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't just, it wasn't in their heads.

It wasn't make -believe. They were building things and they actually had powers. And I think that scares a lot of Christians because they, they, they just think, oh,

I watch too much football. That's, that's an idol for me. I need to, I need to stop doing that. And I think idol worship is something completely different and you have to understand it from an ancient perspective and, and realize that they were building not just these, these sort of dynasties in, in places like, you know,

Holy lands, they were building them all over the world and they had similar knowledge and they were all doing the same thing.

How, why, how did all these societies separate from each other over massive distances, build the same stuff and do this and do the same things they, they were in rebellion.

They were taught how to rebel in a way. But I, but I think that there was an exchange there. And so I think to say that is that, yeah, the, the gods of the, the old

Testament were, were real. They were probably, they had some authority in some areas and then

Christ's death, I think releases it maybe back to human beings being in control of each other.

And so there's this wound, there's this stripping of power, but that, but you know, even the demons in the new

Testament say, have you come? Is this our time? And they thought Jesus's first coming was, you know, his second coming.

And so there's still this remnant of evil. There's still this stuff going on. I don't know if they have the same powers that they did before the crucifixion, but it's still lingers.

And then that's where the debate is of, of how much power, where are they, you know, are they locked up or they released are, you know, what is a demon?

What isn't a demon? How much can we be influenced? It, it's a really good question. And I think we just give a lot of context of what the ancient world was like, but I don't know,

I don't know how much freedom they have to do whatever they're doing. Yeah. Do you, it's also just interesting and you can give me your thoughts on this.

I mean, we always look at those, those examples, we're talking about the ancient civilizations who would do human sacrifices or even, you know, as Christians, you know, we would talk like,

I'm a by -product of like purity culture with the whole Josh Harris movement and stuff like that. Oh yeah, Rick is dating goodbye, let's go.

I remember like Josh Harris, he was like, he was like the Justin Timberlake of homeschooling. Dude, yes, yes, yes.

I remember like him, you know, given talking about Corinth and the sexual immorality of all that sort of stuff.

And it's, and it's obviously interesting in contrast to him now, you know, totally deconstructed and walking away from the faith, which obviously breaks my heart, you know, and, and similar people.

But honestly, like, what's interesting is that like a lot of what's depicted in Corinth and even through the lens of like purity culture and even my background, like,

I didn't really think about the demonic entities that were attached to that type of worship in the sense where like Paul gives instruction

Romans, how we're supposed to present our bodies as a living sacrifice. And every religion requires sacrifice.

You know, with anything about the ancient Mayans, they were being consistent with the same principle in Romans 12, they are just doing it like in a wrong way.

Yeah. And so like, when you look at, you know, every ancient religion, they were always utilizing some form of like sexual immorality as a catalyst to use their body or someone else's body as a living sacrifice.

And that's, that's all safe and normal. Like as long as it's back there in ancient times. All right.

I'm going to put my tinfoil hat on here for a second. Right. So I'm going to do a little Alex Jones here for a second, but, um, but honestly, but if we be real, when we look at something like Epstein Island, you know, you think about Epstein, you know, you remember how crazy

Epstein didn't kill himself was when it came to the whole, um, when it came to the, you know, just, it was, it was like a trending hashtag.

I mean, the memes, I came up with a couple of means myself and a couple of Facebook posts, but honestly, you have a bunch of people who were the ruling class of the world, right.

And who are all sort of connected to this group that has to deal with, on some levels, like sex with underage children.

They're being blackmailed. It's a weird, strange rabbit hole. And of course people say that you're crazy. This is some unique incidents, but honestly, if you look at that and you look at even like the shape of that temple in Epstein Island, it looks very similar.

It looks very similar to like a lot of things that are out there. And this is something that regardless of what camp of like,

I'm from their form camp, you know, you guys have your camp. Well, like we're all, and even people like who are more on the tinfoil hat, like you have people like Sam Tripoli or even

Joe Rogan, or they've all, all of us are looking at this and we're like, this is crazy.

We have, we all know this thing exists. There's people who are doing despicable things, which I wouldn't even want to talk about.

And it's there, it's incontrovertible. Like that's no different from that from there.

But there is something that's truly like tangibly evil that, you know, as a

Christian, even the, you know, like almost like the, you know, especially like with 2020, you know, it was a challenging in the sense that I feel like every single headline was, was that, was the opening, was the cover of a wake magazine from the watchtower

Bible track society, you know, meteorites going down. You look at like, you look at like, was it Vegas being completely empty?

You had a Vegas being completely vacant. You had times square being completely like right around the cusp of like March, 2020, when you just saw how crazy everything was.

And like, even like that, even that it's almost like part and partial to like right now when people have seen things like Epstein Island, you see all that's happened in 2020 where people don't trust anything.

The media tells you there's this huge, there's this huge willing suspension of disbelief where it's almost created this vacuum where it could be a good thing where people are really spiritually hungry.

Like 2020 was an amazing year of, I've actually had people on the podcast who came to Christ as a result of just really questioning the world around them.

And that led them to the Bible and to embrace Jesus as the Lord and savior. And that's great. But there's also a huge vacuum.

And even like the whole Epstein Island thing, as a Christian, I can give an account as to why, like I have points of reference, like in Corinth, like that was happening in ancient times, right?

That's probably what Paul was dealing with in the first century, the churches that he was dealing with. We're seeing a new modernized updated iOS update of that.

And other people, they don't really have a worldview of how to account for it. And they could go so many different directions.

So I think one of the ways to really address it is to try and at least acknowledge the tangible reality of something physical like Epstein Island, but also acknowledge the supernatural aesthetic behind it.

We live in a weird time too, because I don't think ancient people had a belief problem.

I think it was more, do you believe in the serpent or do you believe in the God of Israel? And they had, you know, they believe that they're like, like Luke was saying earlier, the serpent was the king and that he was going to give him the freedom and that God was unjust and didn't give us this knowledge and put these restrictions on us.

And I think we've, we're in a weird time where you have a big belief problem for the last couple hundred years.

People just, they're apathetic. They don't care, whatever. I'm just going to go on and do my thing. I'm just going to endlessly distract myself.

But now, like you said, I think 2020 woke people up to this. There's there, there's something behind the scenes.

I don't know what it is. Someone's pulling, I mean, how in the hell did the whole world shut down? It's just, it's crazy.

And everyone was like, you know, just, they woke up, they just woke up like something's not right here.

And I think for, from, from our perspective, like the world is educating these people with ancient aliens and other crazy ideas.

And we have a lot of them come on, you know, get a lot of emails from people like, I listened to your show and it makes sense now.

And I, and I've come back to Christ too, because, you know, I, I experienced this weird thing when

I was a kid and nobody in, no one in church would talk about it. And I think people are starting to understand that, okay, like the, the weird stuff now gives me permission to believe the weird stuff back then, you know,

Moses, Moses' staff turning to a snake and other weird stories that you as a modern person reading the

Bible, even a believer could go, maybe they just sort of, that was a, that was sort of just allegory.

That didn't actually happen, but what if it actually happened? And so I think when you get permission to people, everything, all the weird stories, like Heizer says, if it's weird, it's important, happen.

If you just, if you just believe that they happen the way that they say they happen, and that's where I'm at, then it's not hard to believe the

Bible. And I think in a modern, in a modern lens, and I think stories like paranormal stories, just for whatever reason can be a gift in your life because then you can go, oh,

I can believe all this other paranormal stuff that I've always kind of wrote off in my mind my whole life.

And, sorry, that was a lot, but yeah, I have, I have a question. I have one thing to say,

Andrew, I think it's your point to the abortion thing and then to Moloch. And then you bring up Epstein, right?

Look at the untouchables. Not one person has been prosecuted who was on the Lolita Express or went to the island.

And I think you have to start wondering, and we talked about the abortion thing as well, like, I just don't think it really,

I don't think it ever stopped. I think it's got repackaged. I think that this is still part of the same cult.

So he uses cultists, right? The same practice that this is, I just don't think it ever stopped.

And now it became a thing of convenience, but it's still in the end is still the same, whether it be trafficking of children. Like we talked for a while today, just about the

Jim Caviezel film. And that's a big talking point right now, right? Sound of Freedom with Tim Ballard story, right? It's a real story.

This guy, Tim Ballard, I follow him on Instagram and everything. And he's really rescuing kids and people want to dissociate that and say, that's not real.

This is a QAnon. This is, you know, it's political, we're politicizing it, but this is happening.

Like this is for real, the abuse, and in some cases, the sacrifice, whether it be abortion, or even other really horrible things that I don't even like to give attention to talk about.

But these things happen. Yeah. I don't think it ever stopped. And I think it's shocking to people. But I think that these things continue.

And Paul says that like, you know, our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities, right? Your question is fascinating about the way that things, when

Jesus came, how that changed, right? I don't think necessarily these things went away. I think he defeated him, he took the keys of sin and death, right?

He, he dealt them the death blow. But we're still in this time where they still operate. And I don't think they've ever changed their ways.

So you talked about the Aztecs, we talked about the Mayans, about human sacrifice, still continuing, it just looks different.

Right? And, and I don't know that the whole power thing is interesting question, right?

It's more underground, but like, are they still trying to create, get power from this creates some sort of right and ritual from this, perhaps, but it continues.

And that part is, is the, you can go to dark places, as Jeremiah said, you can go down some crazy rabbit holes with this.

And, and I think ultimately, all it does is, it's just the most pertinent reminder that, that we need a savior.

And also reminder that Jesus is King, the King of Kings, he's on the throne.

He defeated all this. And this is the death, this is the death thrall of, of, of the darkness.

Yeah, it really feels like that, that is, it is, it is the, as they try to just sort of collateral damage everything on their way to, to judgment, right?

I just, yeah, man, we've talked to people on the show that about trafficking and about some of the things that happen in there.

And actually, that's one of the things I actually personally try to spend some of my finances and time on. I have,

I have friends that run nonprofits that, that fund safe houses for, for kids and women that have been rescued out of trafficking.

And I just, I think it's fascinating if we stop into this moment in time to see the way that, the way the mainstream is pushing back on this, the way that it's being discredited.

Oh, it's, it's just, yeah. It's disgusting. I mean, it's just, go ahead. Yeah. No, it's just, there's more people enslaved now than there's ever been in the history of the world.

And yet we, the vast majority of mainstream media wants to push it away.

It's not, it's not, it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that has, that, that grounds themselves in, in their faith, because this is dark as dark.

Yeah. No, Andrew, I won't, I won't let you jump into the question you had in a second, but just one, one thing just in comment is that, man, it's,

I haven't yet seen the film. Like I listened, I listened to the, uh, the Sean, what's his name?

He was the interview of the Jim Caviezel on, what is it? Sean Ryan? Is it Sean Ryan show?

There's the really popular podcast. Yeah. It's, it's a really, yeah. We've all seen the same clip. Yeah. So I just saw some of the things he was talking about, you know,

Jim Caviezel was talking about his experience and like filming it and, you know, it was definitely an interesting interview, but man, it just, one of the things that was really troubling about the media pushback regarding that is that honestly, like Steve Hassan, who really wrote the book,

Combating Cult Mind Control and a book called Freedom of Mind was, was really talking about the bike cult model.

Have you guys heard of that? No, no. So honestly, this is a whole nother rabbit hole, but, uh, so Steve Hassan, he's not a

Christian, but he wrote a book called Combating Cult Mind Control. His, his story, very cliff notes is that he got into a, uh, he went to a weekend retreat that was about like world and social justice, uh, that's of that sorts, but turns out he ended up getting totally, uh, sleep, sleep deprived and got really indoctrinated.

And within two weeks, he completely isolated and cut off from all his friends and family, uh, and believe that he got caught into the moonies.

Like he was a devout, true believer, believing that some young moon was the Messiah. And he, and he had, that was his world for like two years until he actually got into a car accident by way of sleep deprivation.

And so like back in the seventies, uh, you know, if we kind of go into the cult world, excuse me, versus the blurry world, which is kind of blurry in and of itself, but, um, he ended up crashing this van and he broke his leg in a couple of different ways where he actually had to, they had to use the jaws of life to get him out of the van cause it was that badly destroyed.

But, um, he ended up calling his sister saying, Hey, cause he had a moment of sobriety because all of a sudden you're not sleep deprived, you're not doing 10 different things.

And all of a sudden he had a moment to think of his family member and he said, Hey, I'm not, uh, you know, just, I'm here just want to let you know,

I think of you, but just don't tell my parents. Well, his sister didn't tell, uh, didn't listen to him and told his parents and they ended up doing an intervention.

And so like back in the seventies, you had this whole movement called the deprogramming movement, which was all about trying to do interventions and forcing people to unthink and decompartmentalize, but end up having a lot of issues because within it, in order to do these interventions, actually, you actually had to kidnap people.

So like Colts actually pushed back and there's a whole bunch of replications to where that couldn't happen anymore.

And so Steve Hasen took this approach. Well, anyways, let me, I'm jumping ahead, but, uh, Steve ended up going through like five or six days of being deprogrammed.

And like the, within like day five or six, he ended up just like curling into a ball because he, what he talks about when it comes to cult mind control, cult indoctrination, how there's a cult identity that suppresses your true self.

And usually you'll have a fluctuation between like the cult identity and the true person. So he had this cult identity that was suppressing his true self for two years.

And so when you finally like found his sort of like true self in a sense, like he was curled up in a ball and was like bawling his eyes out for like two hours because he didn't even know how to feel emotions for like two years.

And so he has a whole, yeah. So, I mean, he has a whole, like his book combating cult mind control.

He has a whole interview on the Joe Rogan experience, which is fascinating. So he has been a, he's not a Christian, but you know, he bears

God's image. So he really does a good example of talking about the effects of like thought reform on people and how cults affect people in a negative sense.

And it was very interesting because he was one of the most outspoken critics against QAnon. And he even has a book called the cult of Trump, right?

So regardless of where your audience stands politically, that he actually, one of his biggest criticisms of QAnon is that it deters like some of the whole, the whole

QAnon narrative. It actually deters away from like real issues regarding sex trafficking and actually focusing on real organizations that can actually help those people, which is very interesting because the people in Rolling Stone, these other articles, they are utilizing like the real, just the legitimacy of sex trafficking.

Now, now that's QAnon. It's like, really? Yeah. There's a lot of PSYOPs out there.

And that's kind of something that Luke and I often talk about off the show is just that there are a lot of PSYOPs. There are a lot of things that are close to the truth and they're twisted a little bit and then people get obsessed about them.

And I think maybe the similarity between both of our shows is, is that you were trying to give people more information so they don't get sucked into bad information.

Right. And I think a lot of people deconstruct or walk away from their faith because they don't understand things like the old

Testament. They don't understand what was going on. And then they get to the modern age and they get indoctrinated by the world's views. And then they go,

Oh yeah, that old Testament. You have guys like, you know, Andy Stanley saying that we should break up the new Testament and the old

Testament because, because they don't understand. They don't understand the old Testament. And I think a lot of people, they can get afraid.

Like, you know, a lot of people, they get freaked out. The fact of like, you know, ancient writers of the

Bible read everything of the time. You know, we had this very small view. Well, we can't read anything.

We can't, we can't have information because information's bad. And if you watch ancient aliens, you're gonna get sucked in and you're going to leave the faith.

Well, your faith wasn't very strong to begin with, if that's the case. Right. And so on our show, we try to get people better answers like, okay, this is why people get sucked into ancient aliens, because they actually see that ancient, the ancient world is very complex and there's weird stuff going on.

And even ancient aliens sometimes will use the Bible to explain how this stuff was, you know, how human beings were interacting with realms and getting knowledge from another realm.

Right. And building this stuff. I mean, in some ways they even have a better understanding of the Bible, I think, than modern day

Christians who are so in a box. And then when something comes at them, but they don't understand, they lose their faith overnight.

They, and then they deconstruct and then they're anti, and you're like, man, if you just, if you just weren't so,

I guess, tight about, about being able to, to see all of the things, to read different things that, that maybe you're, you're just, you kind of knee jerk against.

For sure. I don't know if I'm making sense, but it's just, I think on our show, we're like, let's go back. Let's, let's, let's understand the ancient world.

Let's understand the ancient mindset and how it relates to the modern day paranormal stuff and how it never went away.

It just sort of, it just sort of went underground. But these things have been going on a lot of the time.

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Yeah. Andrew, what were you going to ask? What were you guys earlier? No. Yeah. It just reminds me, it's kind of like,

I don't know if there's a correlation or not, but it seems like a society and rebellion doesn't have the same protection from God against things that are preternatural or supernatural.

I would say a sign of heightened supernatural experience that our absence of God's peace in the life of a nation would be a sign and form of judgment.

I find it really interesting that people who attend from deconstructing from the

Bible, because they may be struggling with the fact that there was a magician in Pharaoh's court that also turned a staff into a snake.

I remember having questions about that. I was like, Moses, that's fine. I get it. Moses can turn the staff into a snake. God created the world in six days.

Moses can do it. But when they did it, I was like, that's a little strange. But anyways. And you had magicians showing up to the birth of Christ.

Remember? Yeah. The Magi. Yeah. What's that all about? You know? Right. Right.

With coming of deconstruction, what I find interesting is that people go away from Christianity, which

I think is, again, the highest supernatural experience anyone can ever have. We're talking about a God who incarnated, didn't just show up and disappear and cause fear into people, but incarnated into man, fully

God and fully man, and then lived a life not in secret, but publicly. Right. And was crucified publicly and died on the cross for the people that hated him.

Right. Yeah. And that through belief in him, you can have salvation, like an amazing thing, bringing spiritually dead people to life.

And it says in Christ is hidden all the treasures of hidden wisdom and knowledge. Right. In him, like having the ability, as Paul says in Colossians, when he's praying for the church, that there'll be filled with all spiritual wisdom and knowledge in Christ, which is amazing that we have that ability in Jesus and through his word.

But people who deconstruct maybe because of paranormal or supernatural experiences, they think that the

Bible is contradictory to the world, but they go and they go off the whole other end right into other types of paranormal and supernatural experiences, saying gender is fluid.

Right. That they deny the physical existence of their own body. And they go to this weird psyche form of gender and mutilate themselves.

Right. Like it's a really weird situation at play. I think that what we're going through today in our society, in terms of having more supernatural experiences than let's say a thousand years ago,

I may, you guys probably have way more knowledge on the undocumented history of supernatural experiences, but just here, just hear me real quick.

All right. I think it's a sign of God's judgment on a, on a nation. Like our nation literally covenanted with God upon its, like its conception, like with the

Mayflower compact and things of that nature. And literally we have rebelled against the same God that would protect us from the things that are out to confuse us into harm us.

Right. Like there is another realm that we should not get access into. Why? Because does it give you the truth?

No, it doesn't give you the truth. It's there to lie to you. It's there to confuse you. And it's there to pull you away from your creator.

And I don't know, it's just a weird part of the world that we're living in today. Like you talked about, I think what, what is it?

It's like $150 billion industry, the sex slave industry. And like, I remember we did an episode on it with the founders,

Jerry, and we went into some of the numbers, the finder's episode, but it's the second highest grossing industry in the world.

That's never talked about. And I mean, we, we deserve judgment, man. We deserve wrath.

We deserve to be confused. We deserve to have a supernatural things come out of the woodwork and scare us and give us fear.

Why? Because it should run us into the arms of the one who incarnated and died for us. He didn't run away from us so that we can repent and turn back to Christ.

Like that's, that's at least my ultimate hope in it. I don't know where I'm going with that either, but that's what you guys are making me think about.

I think we've, we've given over authority to the things. Right. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. And, and, and listen, the supernatural realm of spiritual realm, whatever you, whether you talk to, you know, we've talked to Catholic priests and we've talked to a bunch of folks, but the, the reality is, is that the

Bible makes it very clear that it's, it's, it's very legalistic and, and you, you can give permissions and, and by giving over your worship and giving over authority to things.

And I think that's kind of what you're saying. And I think it's true just in the same way that the demons have to obey the name of Jesus.

And that even if you look at some of the odd scenes in the old Testament, like Satan has to get permission from God to sift

Job, you know, and everything is perm, is permissive is permission. It's by permission.

And I think you make an interesting point, like perhaps, and I don't say, I know the answer to this. And I think it feels like the veil is just in general, but perhaps we've given, given permission and given authorities over.

Cause you're right. Like this was a place that was, that was founded on the principles of Christianity.

You know, they called a Judeo -Christian nation. Right. And it's very much, we slaughter more children here than any, think about the things that are happening here.

And in some ways, those I'm not my opinion in some ways, I think those things are permissions to, for, for things to that go bump to potentially to, to be, yeah, it's complicated.

It's a covenantal exchange. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's even in, yeah, even in, even in, this is interesting.

Cause I was listening to the, even in the 10 plagues, you know, God provided life for the Israelites in, in Egypt during that judgment.

Right. So I think God always gives his people, we have to endure pain and we go through struggles and suffering, but God always provides an out for his people,

I think. And it's difficult cause we do live in a nation that is controlled, very much controlled by elites.

And we're all waking up to this, you know, they're running these underground, they're all part of this underground crime ring and there's a shadow government.

And I think most people who listen to our show, you know, at this point understand that that's happening, but Christians also have the power and authority of Christ to, to combat these things.

And I think that, you know, we, we talk to people all the time who've been sort of supernaturally rescued in situations when they've been up against evil, horrific evil.

And you'd be surprised at some of the stuff that happens, whether like it's abductions or it's some, there's a lot of satanic ritual abuse stuff that comes through our channels because these entities are involved and blurry creatures are, are there.

And if you want to know what's going on, I think Luke and I, you know, we try to expose the darkness.

That's sort of our, like, you know, don't, don't mess around with it, but expose it, you know, so that people can understand what they're up against and why they need a savior.

But, you know, in so many ways it's, it's just difficult. I think it's really complicated.

And I think that the more our show, you know, deeper, it gets, I think a lot of people just like easy answers and there aren't any.

You have to know, you have to wrestle through it. I think, no, just, just to piggyback off of that is that, you know, you guys mentioned, you know, a guy who's been really influential is it was

Iser. It's funny because I remember it was a couple of years ago, somebody messaged us and it goes, when you're first starting off and somebody has

Michael Heiser, like, listen to you, to you guys. I think, I think Heiser referred to us as like two reformed guys who are open to the spiritual gifts.

I just got a big belly laugh out of that. And I was like, Oh, that's so cool that he likes us. And he actually, he would like comment every now, every now and then, you know, now he's with the

Lord and all that. But, you know, in the same way that you guys would look to him, like, I think for us, like the late

Dr. Walter Martin is probably like one of the biggest influences on, on both of us.

I think anybody who is interested in his ministry, he has two books that recommend a kingdom of the cults and kingdom of the occult, both the kingdom of the occult is compiled by his, his daughter,

Jill Martin. And that's a compiling of his lectures on the occult. But it's fascinating because like in the seventies, if you look back, like there's no buddy else.

I even have any weariness of anybody who was actually talking about the things that Dr.

Walt Martin, Dr. Walter Martin was talking about. He was talking about ESP, like extra sensory perception, like how to differentiate between like real extrasensory perception and a cultic extrasensory perception.

Um, he would talk about like UFOs and aliens. Like, I don't know of any Christian minister in the seventies who was actually giving an apologetics towards UFOlogy or talking about Jehovah's witnesses or Mormonism.

Chuck Missler was Chuck Missler. Okay. That was, yeah, there's a, yeah, there's a side dude we had as a kid.

I remember we had king of the cults at my house, in my house. It's funny that you say that you bring that up. I hadn't thought about that in a while, but that book,

I remember seeing this book in my, in my parents' library. Like, and it was one that sticks with you. Cause I was like, what is that about?

You know, I remember my dad saying, Oh, this, you know, when the Jehovah's witnesses come to the door, but then like you tell stories, like we actually talk with our, we had an interview where we would talk with his producer and, but he was also very weary in understanding of the reality of the supernatural and like the dangers of the occult.

Like he always walked around with a giant crucifix. Um, he had always wear that especially cause he'd always say like,

Hey, you can always deal with a cult. Like that's fine. But when you need to be very, very wary, if you actually deal with like ministry towards the occult, because you're opening yourself up to like all sorts of spiritual warfare.

So he would do lectures and stuff would happen with his radio equipment and recording equipment. And in fact, um, the

Craig Nelson, who's a producer that we interviewed, he is, he was actually present when Walter Martin was actually doing a deliverance on somebody who was actually, he exercised like a demon out of them.

Um, and so there's, I mean, he would deal with that sort of stuff. And like, he was sort of in the epicenter of that sort of ministry and he was very open and would talk about it where a lot of people, they sort of, some are somewhat like wary of that.

And I think like one of the challenges is that, you know, we were talking about the sort of covenantal change where we are like a post we're a post

Christian society in any sense that America was. And we're really like a resurgence of neopaganism is happening on an explosive level.

So the type of supernatural experiences that were typically were reserved in middle

Eastern countries or in places like in India, like that's being normalized here in the West.

And I think if you don't have an apologetic to truly understand the supernatural,

I think you're going to pendulum swings into all sorts of overreactions and misunderstandings of how to appropriately address it.

You know, like one of my favorite lectures just real quickly was of the late Dr. Walter Martin when he, there's a, you could actually look it up.

We actually might repost on our platform at some point because Walter Martin just talking about exorcism and in it, he actually reviews the exorcist when it came out.

Like he went to a movie theater and he talks about like the good and the bad, like what the movie got right. And where it was theologically inaccurate.

Most people would go into complete satanic panic mode was like, Oh, ban that movie. Don't talk about it. Well, he was like, well, the conversation's already here and you can't escape it.

So I'm going to go ahead and talk about how we actually tackle this theologically and also put the supremacy of Christ at the forefront of that sort of film, which we all know the dark aesthetic that came with that film.

Well, that's, and I think that's how the Bible handles all these topics. It doesn't edit out difficult things. Cause it's afraid.

It doesn't, it doesn't not talk about the pagan nations and pagan practices because it's afraid you're going to get sucked into those.

It teaches you like, this is actually what happened. This is what they were participating in. And this is, you know, you need all of the information so that you're not, it's like the kid who never, you know, his parents withhold alcohol and everything from him.

And then he goes off to college and he just gets smashed face and dies in the frat house because he never even was never exposed to anything.

And I think a lot of Christians are like that today. What happens when the realms interact again? I mean, there's a lot of biblical evidence that says, you know, the realms were interacting, but in the golden age, the pre -flood societies, you had, you had other realms interacting with human beings.

And we made a really good case on our show for that. And a lot of people say it's going to happen again. And what you're seeing is more and more this stuff coming out of the woods.

And so what happens when this stuff rolls onto the scene? What happens when they say, Oh yeah, there are aliens, there are UFOs. A lot of Christians are going to lose their faith overnight because they never, they never, they never had, there's only a few rogue theologians, like you were talking about, like Chuck Missler's of the world.

We've been talking about this forever, but you've got Bigfoot encounters that go all the way back at the turn of the century. You've got, we brought on Diana, Dr.

Diana Pasolka saying that there's a whole wing in the Vatican archives that talked about UFOs and there's all this stuff that she got access to.

A thousand years of, of, of stuff that they've recorded. There's a whole, yeah. She got access because she's in the

Vatican library and she's Catholic. And I let her in there to do her research. And she's like, there's a whole section on UFOs.

And it goes back like a thousand years. And you're like, yeah, that's interesting. So this stuff, this stuff is around, it's here.

It's, it's just been conveniently swept under the rug. And like Tim Malbruno says on our show, if, if, you know, if you don't expand your perspective, it's going to break.

And I think a lot of people are a stretched rubber band and you throw in Bigfoot UFOs, aliens into that.

It just breaks, but you should be able to have some flexibility so that, you know, you can allow these other topics and the gospel to, to mix together.

And there is an explanation for all the weird paranormal blurry creatures out there. And I think we, we try our best on our show to say that, you know, like Luke said,

Christ is the King of Kings. That's all I would add to that is Nate is like, yeah, Ephesians five, right?

Like to do not participate in the fruitless deeds of the darkness, but instead expose it. It's important that you, that we think about these things, at least, at least have exposure to it.

But I don't want to get lost in this, that, that the most important thing is the gospel of Christ.

Like this is the most important thing. All of these things are, I think, provide really, really fascinating and interesting context.

And actually makes sense of a lot of things we see in the old Testament. Like the reason people deconstruct, we talk about deconstructionism, right?

Like you had to pull this side's version of Christianity and you go, how can we support a God that, that sanctions genocide, the conquest of Joshua?

Yeah. And there are answers to that. Like if you look at, if you, if you look at Genesis six, four, and you go, okay, you know, up until 400 years after Christ, the prevailing thought on, on this, since the writing of Genesis was that there was an angelic and, and human interaction that created the

Nephilim, right? You have this, this is what they believed until 400 years after Christ, which yeah, I think that for what it is, I think that speaks for itself.

And you go, okay, so these are giant tribes or hybrid tribes, everyone then, and God's, God's judging them.

And even if it's not that, and it's just, these people are evil and God's judging them. Like we're people that now are putting themselves in the place of God saying, my

Jesus doesn't sponsor genocide. My Jesus is

X, Y, Z affirming. Yeah, they're reading the stories with little context. Well, even too is that,

Andrew, I'll let you jump in here as well too. But like, even when you look at the whole deconstruction conversation, it's just so interesting because honestly,

I was having a conversation with my friend Melissa Doherty and we were reviewing, we were talking about the recent documentary, Shiny Happy People.

And we're just kind of getting our feedback on it, which is all about that Duggars 19 kids and counting show. But, you know, it's always interesting to see, talk to people who have gone through the whole deconstruction route because I've been there.

Like I think of everything that I've sort of obstacle that I've hit in my route. I'm like, man, I feel like I've given,

I've been given every single reason in the world, like why I should deconstruct like almost every single story ever.

Like I identify with them. Like I met Derek Webb, like on a tour when he was in Caveman's Call.

Like I know, like I went to Joshua Harris conferences where he was sort of leading the whole I Kissed Jane Goodbye movement.

Like I've, it's funny, like I was just watching some story on Instagram with this, uh, they're actually a really funny couple and they're like, they deconstructed and, but they're still kind of funny because they kind of talk about stuff

I identify with. And, you know, they're talking about, for example, they do these things called which obviously it sounds kind of like cringe, like,

Ooh, that sounds kind of weird now given all the social justice stuff. But it would just be like, Hey, I need to raise money for like a missions trip.

So let me just go ahead and do like hard labor to raise money for it. Right. And people would like auction off, like how much they'll pay you for like to work for them.

And they talk about how fringe it was. And I actually laughed. I'm like, man, that is cringe. But part of it honestly makes me sad because they look at Christianity through the lens of sort of how some people have sort of created sort of this, this cringe culture in some sense that we're all kind of a by -product of, and many of us have disentangled from.

It's like, that's, that's sort of not real Christianity. When you actually look at the whole story of like, of people of the ancient world and what they were in power with power, what they are under the power of and what

Christ did on the cross. And now looking at even now how you give an answer for it and looking at in 2020, how people are answering questions.

And it's a, it's almost like a weird. Like it's like a PG version. It's like a given good

Disney. Well, we've been given a PG version of Christianity. So when you get to a certain age, you know, you're, you're watching so much rated

R content that you can't, you can't put those two together. So you deconstruct your faith because no one ever gave you the rated

R version. No one ever told you, you know, like there's a lot of Christians who just have this

PG version of reading the old Testament. And so there's the story of like the witch and Endor going to Saul and conjuring up a dead

Samuel. Right. And they go, that's that, that, that whole thing was demonic. You shouldn't, you shouldn't even think about this.

But the weird part of the story is Samuel gives Saul a judgment and says, you're going to die tomorrow.

And he does. And why would a demon be giving prophecies to Saul? And people can't read these stories in a modern day context.

They don't understand any of it. It's like they just gloss over all these things. So you get to a certain age and then, you know, the propaganda machine of all of our education system comes into your mind and you just, you walk away from your faith.

It never, the gospel never really sunk deep into your heart because you never really understood it. You never really were given.

This is the raw reality of human beings and what we were deceived out of and what we gave up in the garden and how sin affects us and the wars of the

Old Testament and what we were fighting against and the technological rebellion that's been going on since the dawn of time and how we just, we want to give the finger to God every single way we can.

And despite all that, Christ comes, becomes a human being. Why? So he could have authority on earth.

You know, he becomes human. So he has all power on earth and in heaven. Yeah. So there, there is a, there is more going on.

He has to become human to have authority here because that's what we were given. We were given a right to be here.

And I think that I didn't understand a lot of these concepts till my forties. Like I just sort of said the prayer and did the thing and, and sort of like, yeah, the

Old Testament's weird. But now, you know, I think the Old Testament is some of my favorite stuff because it's, it's so raw.

It's like, like you said, we're obsessed with Marvel movies. The Old Testament is, is got some wild, awesome stories.

And it's sad to me that a lot of modern day Christians just can't, they can't believe it. They can't understand it.

And they're afraid of it. And so when they read the New Testament, it's like, love your enemies. They're like, well, wait a minute.

What about all this Old Testament stuff? They just read like these small little few gospels and then they, they're confused.

They don't understand, like, this is a whole story. This is like a linear story of humanity, where we came from, where we're going, what's going on.

And you can't just take a snapshot of one story and make, make any sense of it. So in a weird way,

Bigfoot for us was like the opening to the, these paranormal things that happened today, they've been going on forever.

And it's your best, it's sort of the most documented, most scientific, weird thing out there to help your brain get into a place where you're like,

Oh, everything's weird. It's always been, this whole thing is weird. What are we doing on this, this rock floating through a universe?

It's all weird. Why have I been so asleep to the paranormal and to the spiritual and to the miracle that human life is?

And I think in a weird way, we've kind of scratched this itch that like, like, the movies get it from the real world.

Yeah, the movies, the movies are emulating, like ancient history. And guys like Tolkien, we're just pulling from, you know, he wasn't inventing these things.

He was pulling from ancient history, all these weird things that were going on in the ancient days, you know, and, and I think you start to understand, just, it is a miracle.

All of this is wow, all of this is bizarre, all of this is weird. And that's okay, that there's nothing wrong with there's nothing wrong with that.

You know, why is it? Why are we so afraid of the weird? I don't know. Yeah, we are. Yeah, just one last thing.

And Andrew, I'll have you jump in here and give your thoughts here. That's so good, man. Um, is I was gonna say before is that like,

I've seen sort of like in the time we've had our podcast, and we've explored a broad variety of topics, including cults, including, you know, aspects of the friends, the new age, the occult, you know, some a little bit of a tablet of the blurverse.

This is our first deep dive plunge into the blurverse. But yeah, like, you know, interesting, you know, we talked on Saturday, and the both of us sort of have a background sort of like growing up in the church and purity culture.

And like I said, what's been one of the biggest counterpoints for me with like, even I've had times where I've really wrestled through, okay, what do

I really believe? Why do I believe this? Like, is my faith tan? What's the difference between my faith now versus everyone

I knew who grew up around me, who like deconstructed? I remember like when John Cooper from Skillet talked to the devil words a couple years ago, he was like very emotional, how he talked about so many of his friends, he either walked away from their

Jesus walked away from their wife, you know, a complete disavow their faith. And like, well, what's tangible and real?

And I think honestly, for me, it's really in these last couple years of ministry here, like watching people both come out of the cults and now the new age, specifically the new age where it's like they tried everything under the sun that everyone's trying now everything that the

Russell brands, the Aubrey Marcus's of the world have like tried, they've been there, done that.

You know, my friend, Will Spencer, like he had like, he did like seven ayahuasca ceremonies, like back to back to back.

And now like, he's come to Christ and he's like, all that is like rubbish in comparison, but it's like, it's, it's been bittersweet because I see a differentiation between people who come out of the new age and Jesus is everything to them.

Like he has this pearl of great price versus somebody like, uh, uh,

Derek Webb or the, the two guys, uh, Rhett and whatever their names are, the two YouTubers who, uh, or just, there's other people who are very notable who've just deal with Josh Harris's who've deconstructed.

And it's like this bitter exchange, like, you know, people who I knew and grew up with thrown it away.

And I've seen other people on the other side of the spectrum. It's now everything to them. Um, what are your thoughts?

What are your thoughts, Andrew, as we kind of, I think we're, as we're, I think we're wrapping up here, but what are your thoughts? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm looking at the, the two blurry creatures guys. And I'm thinking like, they're like the X files investigators, right? Like, uh, like looking at the spiritual psyops, we were talking, we were talking about psyops earlier in like black flags and things like that.

Uh, but we can almost see this interdimensional weaving, right. As there's entities or things trying to create spiritual psyops as well, to keep us away from the power of the gospel or the gospel in general, to distract us, to deceive us.

Uh, and I think it's important to understand that as Christians, we actually have the ability. And we've talked about this before,

Jerry, uh, through Jesus Christ, knowing who our God is, how amazing he is, how he is so much better than any of these things to not get caught up in them, but actually have an objective standard in which we weigh and judge these things and explain them as Christians, because the secular world at large, when they look into these things, they don't have an answer, but they look to get peace from these things.

But we know that the, the only answer on how to get peace in your life comes through this, the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Like it says in first Timothy four, it says, uh, talking about certain people, it says in order to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which is, which promotes speculations rather than stewardship from God that is by faith.

It doesn't say, don't look into those things. If you feel like you need to, it says, don't devote yourself to those things and be wary of people who are swallowed up by those things.

But I think as Christians, we are commanded, like you guys were saying earlier, that we need to expose these deeds of darkness without being overcome by them.

And so it's encouraging for me to hear you guys and, uh, be two people that are in this blurry verse, talking about things through a biblical worldview and showing that, uh,

Christianity is the reason why we can actually give an account for these things in the first place and wanting people to Christ.

So I'm thankful for that. Thanks. Yeah. We're excited. And we see the movement, you know, you have like Graham Hancock's ancient apocalypse, like blowing up on the charts.

You have people hungry for answers and they're looking for guys like Graham and you know, to tell them what's the true history.

Everyone knows that we've been taught a bunch of lies and it's becoming more and more on the forefront and people are going to come to their own conclusions.

And if it isn't, if Christians don't wake up and start giving people some real raw truths of how since day one, man, human beings have been in a spiritual war.

And I think a big part of what we try to talk about in our show is it's also a genetic war. There's a lot more going on here and you can, and you can look into it.

And once you start to see that there is also a war, you can't unsee it. And it's been going on, but I really think that the, the

UFO religions and some of this like ancient alien stuff is really going to take off the next few years.

So it's really important for Christians right now to address these things and look into them because we're seeing disclosure on a massive level.

And that's some of the guys who've been in the giant space. They've been talking about giants forever are shifting more to the alien talk because that's going to be way more deceptive coming down the pipe than anything else.

So yeah, we actually have, that's where our heart is. So no, that's awesome. We actually have an upcoming sort of like mini series we're doing as our first sort of like season one of a special we're doing called alien revelations, the history of UFO disclosures, quick cliff notes stories.

My friend Colin, he's like, he's a Presbyterian minister outside of Nevada, but he just called me.

He's like, Hey, you got to call me, got to talk to me. Like, I'm a fan of cold as you just started. And he was telling me about, Hey, like I, I grew up, like I basically, he, he grew up, he was in a, he's into the new age.

He was actually in the Masonic lodge for a while, but then he became, came to Christ. And, but he had studied like UFOlogy for just for years.

He knows all the people who are into it. And he was telling me that the whole history of like what Tom DeLonge had done with him, like working alongside the government, which to the stars

Academy. And he was saying just long story short, there's a lot of things coming down the pipeline where a lot of people are going to understand things about UFOs.

That's going to become normalized conversation. And this is way before it was, it was like nightly news and Tucker Carlson and things like that.

And so he would just say like, we have to be able to give answers for that. And so we were sort of, we've been sounding the drums or the warning bell for like the, on our podcast multiple times saying,

Hey, this is coming and you're going to have to give some sort of answer, you know, for it.

And there's no easy answer either. There is a lot of Christians just say, Oh, it's demons. And I'm like, it's, it's not that easy.

No, because that's all they know. They know there's angels, there's humans and there's demons and that's it. Right.

And what we try to say on our show is there's a whole host of blurry creatures. And once you plug in all the characters to the story, your faith, your faith starts to grow because it like any movie, like any, any story, if you start at the end of the movie, you don't know what's going on.

But when you get all the characters in the story and you watch it from the beginning of the end, you're like, Oh, I get it.

I get what's going on. You know, it's like you ever walk into a half, half over movie. And a lot of Christians do that.

We started the gospels and we don't really understand why, why then, why, why a savior went in time.

You got to go back. You got to go to the Genesis and understand it. But that's what we do on our show. And we appreciate you guys like wanting to do a crossover.

I'm sure we can talk about this stuff forever. We'll do a, we'll do a, we'll do a volume two.

This has been a lot, a lot of fun guys. It has sweet. Thanks so much. So where can people just, where can people find you guys at?

So blurry creatures .com is kind of the hub for everything. You can find us on most social media platforms.

But yeah, just we're on all the, the, you know, typical podcast apps, blurry creatures, and it's all over the place.

Some, some episodes are just big foot stuff. And sometimes we get real heavy into like satanic ritual abuse and things.

So it's, it's very, it's really hard to hop into our show sometimes. Yeah, no, we took a lot of the heavy stuff as well too.

Okay. That's good. Yeah. If any of your eyes is looking to find us, we're at the cultishshow .com. That's where our central hub, where you look up cultish on any of the podcast platforms.

We actually have our note. We finally have a YouTube channel, which is funny after being around for five years, like we should probably start one of those.

But if you go, we actually just create a domain. It's like cultistv .com that redirects to our YouTube channels to be able to subscribe there.

We're starting to build a little tribe there, but that's where we're at. So this is a lot of fun. So hopefully your guys, your audience enjoys our conversation.

Yeah. Thanks for giving me a chance to meet you, Jeremiah and Andrew. Thanks so much for cool.