June 11, 2018 Show with Mack Tomlinson on “Vital Lessons from the Book of Job” PLUS “Preserving Unity in the Local Church”

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June 12, 2018

June 11, 2018: MACK TOMLINSON (BA degree in New Testament from Hardin-Simmons University, Abilene, TX, having done graduate studies in Israel & through Southwestern Baptist Seminary & Tyndale Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, TX), ordained gospel minister for over 40 years, author, editor & book publisher, global itinerant preacher & one of four of the pastors @ Providence Chapel, Denton, Texas, who will discuss: “Vital Lessons From The BOOK of JOB” *PLUS* “PRESERVING UNITY in the LOCAL CHURCH” & announcing the 2018 Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, ME

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: Now, here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.
01:14: This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of June, 2018.
01:23: I am so delighted that I have back on the program a dear friend of mine who is also an incredible and very gracious supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:36: His name is Mac Tomlinson, and Mac has his BA degree in New Testament from Hardin -Simmons
01:44: University in Abilene, Texas, having done graduate studies in Israel and through Southwestern Baptist Seminary and Tyndale Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.
01:57: He has been an ordained gospel minister for over 40 years. He's an author, an editor, and book publisher, a global itinerant preacher, and one of four of the pastors at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas.
02:12: Today we are discussing two different topics. The first hour we are addressing vital lessons from the book of Job, and the second hour we are going to be addressing,
02:22: God willing, preserving unity in the local church. We're also going to be announcing the 2018
02:28: Fellowship Conference New England in Portland, Maine, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend
02:37: Pastor Mac Tomlinson. Good afternoon, good to be back with you, brother.
02:43: Oh, the pleasure is all mine, brother, and I'm so grateful you could even do it at late notice today, so I am trusting in the
02:51: Lord's blessings upon today's interview. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisorenson at gmail .com,
03:01: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
03:11: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I can understand with a subject like the book of Job, since it involves unspeakable heartache and tragedy, that you may have a question that would compel you to remain anonymous, so we understand that.
03:32: But other than that, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. That's chrisorenson at gmail .com.
03:40: Please, if you could, Pastor Mack, before we get into our discussion on the book of Job, tell our listeners about Providence Chapel, Denton, Texas.
03:50: Well, we are a Reformed Baptistic Church in Denton, 30 miles north of Dallas, Fort Worth, and we're a
04:01: Reformed congregation. We have four churches that share the preaching and teaching and the pastoring.
04:10: We have wonderful believers in our midst, so we would welcome any people who are seeking to find a church in the
04:19: North Texas area to find us. You can find us on the internet at providencedenton .org.
04:27: That's providencedenton .org, and we would be delighted to meet you if you can worship with us anytime.
04:35: Great. You know, I have a suggestion right away for us, Brother. Your phone connection is not the greatest in the world.
04:42: I don't know if you're moving your mouth away from the mouthpiece or if I have to ask you to call in a different number, but we could try it for a little bit while longer, but if it continues to break up,
04:54: I have a second number that you can try. Well, how is it now? It's better now.
05:00: This very second, it's better now. Okay, we'll see how it goes. Yeah, right now it sounds great, and by the way,
05:05: I'm going to repeat that website address that you just gave. It's providencedenton .org,
05:11: and that's providence, D as in David, E, N as in Nancy, T as in Thomas, O, N .org, providencedenton .org,
05:19: and now let our listeners know about your annual fellowship conference,
05:25: New England, that is held in Portland, Maine. Yes, we have had a marvelous conference the last few years in Portland, Maine, and this year it will be
05:37: August 2nd through the 4th. That's August 2nd through 4th. They're in Portland, and we would invite any believers, pastors, or those interested in the
05:51: Christian faith who may not even be Christians yet to join us. You can look at it by going to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com
06:02: or just simply search for Fellowship Conference New England on the internet, and you can register there or you can contact us if you have questions, but it should be a wonderful time again, and it's always enjoyable to see
06:21: Maine and Upper New England in the summer, and Portland is a beautiful city right on the ocean, so we...
06:32: Are you there, brother? Mac, are you there? Yes.
06:37: Yeah, we're going to have to have... we're going to go to an early break because I want you to call a different number. I'm going to text you that number because you're breaking up for some reason, and I don't know if it's just because the phone you're using is not really that compatible with my equipment.
06:54: There are rare occasions when this happens, but I am going to text you the number to call.
07:02: I'm going to go on a brief station break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, as I said, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
07:14: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these few commercial breaks, and we'll be back, hopefully, joined by Mac Tomlinson on a much better phone line.
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09:46: Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every
09:52: Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am
10:03: .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.
10:11: Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon
10:17: Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.
10:23: This is Chris Arnzen, and can I hear you, Mac Tomlinson? Yes, sir,
10:29: I hope so. Yeah, you sound a lot better already. We have to make a note of that for future reference, that for some reason your phone line is more compatible with this other studio phone line.
10:42: All right. Now, I know that your speakers that you have lined up for the
10:48: Fellowship Conference in New England are Pastor Tim Conway, who's been on this program. He's pastor at Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas.
10:56: We have you. We have Pastor Jesse Barrington, who's also been on this program.
11:02: He is pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, which actually happens to be a sister congregation to Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, which airs
11:16: Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio every day on their own radio station, Grace Life Radio 90 .1
11:22: FM in Lake City, Florida. They air a rerun of it every day, the day following the live broadcast.
11:28: So you're going to be on Tuesday, June 12th on Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida.
11:37: Pastor Nate Pikowitz has also been a guest on this program. He is a pastor of the
11:43: Harvest Bible Chapel in Gilmington Ironworks, New Hampshire, and he's the author of Reviving New England and Why We're Protestant.
11:54: And I am very excited to promote this conference because having interviewed all of these men and having met some of them, especially you,
12:04: I have nothing but the greatest and utmost confidence that this conference is going to be biblically centered,
12:11: Christ -exalting, and a blessing to all. Do you have anything further? Well, thank you,
12:17: Chris. Anything further that you'd like to say? I know another thing I can quickly say is that unless you've changed the way you conduct these conferences, you don't have one theme.
12:26: You let the speakers speak on what happens to be burdening their hearts at that time.
12:34: That's correct. We have met believers for their encouragement and their edification and it's not a large conference.
12:50: It's never more right now. It's always under 200 people and there's regular opportunities to interact with the man to speak.
13:07: I hate to say this, Pastor Mack, but when we go to our next commercial break, is there a different phone you could use because the phone problem is acting up again?
13:15: It's on your end, obviously, because both of these phone lines work well with everybody else that calls in, so I'm not sure what's going on.
13:26: I'm sorry. I can call for a different phone immediately. All right. Why don't you do that now?
13:33: Are you going to be hanging up or should I just hold on? I'll hang up and I'll call back.
13:41: All right. Thank you. Sorry about this, folks. These things do happen. They even happen on major networks like Fox News.
13:48: It happens all the time. I happen to recognize and it always makes me feel a little better when
13:53: I see something like that happen on a major network like Fox News, but we apologize.
14:00: This is obviously something beyond our control, so hopefully Pastor Mack Tomlinson is going to be joining us any second now on a commercial break.
14:49: Please wait for the others to join. No, Pastor Mack is not on that line yet.
14:59: Well, I'm going to go to another commercial break until we have this resolved. I apologize, folks, but this is live radio for you and we will,
15:10: God willing, be back with you this time with a permanent connection with Pastor Mack Tomlinson, so don't go away.
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16:27: I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
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17:42: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Paul Welcome back, and I hopefully will have Pastor Mack Tomlinson on the line with us, hopefully permanently this time.
17:51: Hi, Pastor Mack, can you hear me? Pastor Mack I'm here, can you hear me? Paul Yeah, so far it sounds 100 % better, so hopefully it will remain that way.
17:59: I'm sorry about this, brother, I don't know why these things happen from time to time. But let's... Pastor Mack You know, the devil gave
18:07: Job trouble, maybe he's giving us trouble today. Paul Of course, the trouble that Job got was infinitely greater than the trouble we were having with a phone line on a talk show.
18:21: But I believe I was asking you to just say one more thing about the conference before we move on to the subject of Job.
18:31: Pastor Mack Yeah, well, the conference is a smaller conference, less than 200 people, but they're hungry believers who come from around New England, Canada, and as far south as New York City and Pennsylvania.
18:46: But it's a wonderful fellowship. The gospel itself is always preached, as well as pastoral preaching that will encourage believers.
18:59: And we have a quality discounted book table for literature. And it's just a wonderful time.
19:06: And to see Portland in the summer on the ocean is very enjoyable as well. So we would encourage anyone who can come to check out the website, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com
19:20: or just search for it. And please join us August 2nd through the 4th if you can.
19:26: Paul Great. And we'll be repeating that contact information throughout the program. Well, now we are moving on to the book of Job.
19:36: It is a book that even those who are not Christians or Jewish, since it is an
19:44: Old Testament book, but even those that have never read it, many, not all of course, but many have heard about it enough that they know that there's even a common saying that I don't know how popular it is today, but the troubles of Job, the trials of Job, that kind of a phrase can be heard, especially for people my age and older, even if they're outside of the
20:11: Christian faith. And so what compelled you to do an in -depth study on this and decide that this is the subject you'd like us to bring up today on Iron Trubman's Iron Radio?
20:25: Well, I've been preaching a series through the book of Job. I just started it in the last couple of months really.
20:33: So I've spoken in Job over the years. For years as a
20:39: Christian, the book of Job was kind of closed to me. Once I got past the introductory chapters of Job and his friends and the events of his suffering and I got into the speeches between Job and his friends,
20:54: I would bog down. I didn't know what they were saying. I didn't know who was right with all the poetic language, and I couldn't discern or interpret really what the argument was.
21:09: But the more I read the book and read good works on the book of Job, I came to see what a marvelous and majestic and mysterious book
21:23: Job truly is. And it's become in the last years almost my favorite book of the
21:34: Bible because it majors on who God is in his sovereignty and in his ways that are past finding out as well as seeing a man who suffered apart from the man
21:51: Jesus Christ. Job suffered more than anyone in all of history probably as far as personal loss and suffering.
22:00: And so he is an example of persevering and enduring through the hardest things in life and continuing to trust
22:11: God through his darkness. Yes, and why don't you set up the background for this story from what
22:22: I recall from reading the story many times and hearing it preached about many times.
22:29: The story involves Satan having a dialogue with God in regard to this specific child of God Job whom
22:43: Satan believes has been so faithful to his God just because God has been pampering him and he hasn't really suffered at all.
22:54: He hasn't experienced anything that would really bring about a need in his life, or should
23:02: I say not a need in his life, but to bring about an anger in his life great enough to denounce
23:09: God or to disobey him or to abandon him. But if you could start with that little bit of a background here.
23:17: Yeah, well of course the way to view the book of Job is that it's true history.
23:23: There was a true man in history in one of the ancient lands in the
23:29: Middle East, the land of Uz. That's spelled Uz and that's mentioned in the very first verse of Job chapter 1.
23:38: And the first two chapters really set the context. Job was at the time the wealthiest and godliest man in the known world.
23:50: He was widely known and he had a vast empire in his business apparently of farming and ranching.
23:59: And he had 10 children that he was very close to and the family was close to one another.
24:08: And so the first two chapters show us Job's normal living, how they're just living their life, but suddenly in chapter 1 the camera, if you will, goes to heaven and shows us a heavenly scene where Satan comes along with the angelic creatures to present himself before God.
24:39: God allowed this. Satan cannot do what anything he wants to do without God's permission.
24:47: And so Satan comes and it's God that initiates the subject of Job.
24:55: And he asks, Satan have you considered my servant Job? There's none like him on the earth.
25:01: He's a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and hates evil. So it's important to realize that Satan did not bring up Job to God.
25:11: God initiated bringing up Job's life to Satan. In fact, if you read the first two chapters of Job closely, that's the only place
25:22: Satan is mentioned in the dialogue. Satan never initiates any words.
25:31: He only responds to God's initiative. And that's very important.
25:36: Right. I hope I didn't give the implication that I said Satan started the conversation.
25:42: I didn't mean to imply that. Right, right. And well, it's just true in Job 1 and 2 that God initiates the conversation about Satan because he takes, if you read it closely, he takes
25:57: Job's life as a challenge, if you will, to Satan that here's a man who is blameless and godly and upright who serves me and hates evil.
26:12: Well, Satan took the bet, if you want to put it that way. He took the challenge and he accused
26:18: God that Job would curse God and blaspheme him and deny him if he went through any real suffering.
26:29: So you read Job 1 and 2 and you see that God allowed, gave
26:35: Satan permission to attack all of his finances, his business, to attack his ten children.
26:44: They all died in one event in a house that was destroyed by apparently a tornado, tornado -like winds.
26:54: They were all killed at the same time, and then soon
27:00: Job's health was attacked. He was struck with probably what scholars consider severe leprosy because Satan was given permission to attack
27:10: Job's body even, except he was told that he could not take his life. He had to spare his life.
27:17: So you see in these sudden quick scenes of Job going through the most horrendous loss at every level of life, he goes from being a very wealthy man to being bankrupt.
27:33: He goes from being vastly wealthy to being poverty -stricken, really.
27:41: He even loses the support of his wife, who in her sorrow and her grief just encourages him because she's convinced he's going to die from the disease he had.
27:54: She encourages him, just go ahead and end your life and curse
27:59: God because he has already judged you. Now let me ask you a question. Can I just briefly ask you a question about that?
28:08: I have heard, I mean most people that preach on that text that I have heard, in fact every person that I've heard preach on it except one, has said that this was the viciousness of Job's wife toward him, that this was a nasty response from her just because she obviously did not want to be inflicted with the suffering and therefore she said this out of anger to him as something to be hurtful and nasty.
28:44: Something that was even blasphemous. I have heard from one person at least that I can recall who said that this was
28:54: Job's wife trying to be compassionate in a sense in the realm of, for lack of a better term, mercy killing.
29:07: She was saying to Job, curse God so that you'll be put out of your misery in other words.
29:12: Does that latter explanation have any basis in reality in your opinion?
29:19: Well I don't think we can honestly know Chris because we can't see her face, we can't know her grief, we can't see her tears or hear her tone.
29:30: We can only read what the Bible actually says. Good answer. It says in chapter 2 verse 9, then his wife said to him, do you still hold fast your integrity?
29:43: Curse God and die. Those were all her words. Right. Well she may have been, remember she has 10 children buried in probably freshly dug graves near there.
29:57: Right. She lost all her children. She lost all her security and now the man she loves, she sees him covered from the top of his head to the bottom of his feet with horrible sores and so he would have been grotesque and it would have been very grievous to even see.
30:17: Well her question, she asks a question and then she gives an encouragement.
30:23: So she may have had a loving heart, a tender heart, a suspicious heart. She says, are you still holding fast to your integrity?
30:32: Well that implies, husband surely you've done something wrong.
30:38: Why has God judged you this way? Go ahead and just let your life be ended.
30:46: So it may have been almost a verbal form of assisted suicide.
30:53: She thinks he's going to die soon and we see in the book of Job, Job thinks the same thing.
31:01: So it's her way of probably trying to say what she can say to help him end his own misery.
31:10: Okay. I don't think we ought to be harsh with Job's wife. I don't think we have the right to try to interpret if she was angry or what her motives were but that was her part in it.
31:27: Okay. Well you can continue now. Sorry for the interruption. I just have been perplexed by that ever since hearing for the first time the possible explanation that she was actually trying to get
31:39: God to in his wrath kill him on the spot for cursing him just to put him out of his misery.
31:46: But anyway that's just a theory obviously we can't prove. Yeah. Well if you read the first two chapters you see the setting for the whole event.
31:56: Job's family is wealthy. They're blessed. The children are close to one another. I mean it says in the first two chapters, in fact chapter one, that the children would regularly gather together for a family time.
32:14: The children would all gather in the oldest brother's home. So the children were obviously close to one another.
32:20: So you have this wealthy godly prosperous family that were well known.
32:28: I mean he would have been like a you know think of a the wealthiest man you can think of.
32:35: That was Job in his day. And so suddenly, and this is a key to understanding the book somewhat, there's two heavenly discussions that Job is not aware of.
32:49: He does not know that Satan has presented himself before God. He does not know at all that God has issued a challenge to Satan with Job's life.
33:01: He doesn't know that's going on. All that soon all that he experiences is all this loss and this pain and this deep sudden suffering that's unimaginable.
33:14: And so then days and weeks must go by because the word spread and three of Job's friends who were probably men of reputation, men of standing in their own community, men who were older and considered wise, three friends came each from their own place.
33:41: Job chapter two says they had made an appointment together to come and mourn with Job and to try to comfort him.
33:50: And so the end of Job two closes the first initial scene of the eyes as they approach him.
34:03: And they did not recognize him. Well, why? Because he's covered with scabs all over his body.
34:12: He looks horrendous. And all they can do is begin to cry.
34:19: And they tear their clothes and they throw dust on their heads, which in the ancient world was a symbol of grief and mourning.
34:28: And they sit down with Job, not for one day and one night, but for seven days and seven nights.
34:35: And the Bible says in the last verse of Job two, no one even spoke a word to Job because they saw his grief was very great.
34:46: So what you have there, the way to picture that is, they came and they were so distraught and grieved and shocked by what they saw, they couldn't bring themselves to speak to Job.
35:00: They didn't know what to say, but also they couldn't enter into his suffering.
35:08: So they were really remaining outsiders and Job was alone in his suffering.
35:16: So I could, I could make transition here if you want me to keep going.
35:22: Yes, definitely. Job chapter three begins many chapters from Job three to Job 38.
35:38: From Job three to Job 38, there are many speeches, if you will, with Job beginning it in Job three and then his three friends, in fact, a fourth younger friend,
35:51: Elihu, at the end of the speeches, Elihu, who had been listening, he enters in finally and he closes the speeches.
36:04: But these speeches are the hardest part of the book of Job to interpret. But once you get a bird's eye view of what's being said, it begins to get easier to interpret because Job's speeches and his friend's speeches, it kind of becomes a verbal war of words.
36:25: It becomes a verbal ping pong match because in chapter three, if you look at it closely,
36:32: Job does two things. He's not speaking to his friends and he's not speaking to God even.
36:38: He's speaking to himself, but he's speaking out loud. He does two things in Job three.
36:45: He curses in the day of his birth. He wishes he had never been born. That's basically all he says in chapter three.
36:54: But he also asked seven times he uses the word why. Why? Of course, isn't that the common feeling that when someone goes into a time of sudden suffering, why
37:10: God? Why have you allowed this? Why am I going through this? What have
37:16: I done? I don't understand. Why is this happening? Job says that seven times in chapter three.
37:25: Well, finally, in chapter four begins Job's three friends, a dialogue with Job.
37:34: The first is Eliphaz, and if you read chapter four, he begins tenderly.
37:41: He says, you know, if someone attempted to speak a word, would you be discouraged if I say anything?
37:48: But I can't hold back from speaking. Job, you've instructed many. You've strengthened many hands.
37:55: You've strengthened many feeble knees. But now this adversity has come upon you.
38:02: So with that speech in Job four, here's what you have down to about chapter 36.
38:11: You can summarize it this way. Job's friends, they're using eloquence.
38:17: They're using theology. They're using orthodox things they say about God.
38:25: Job responds in kind. He responds the same way. So it's poetic language.
38:30: But if you boil it down and all of the speeches between Job and his friends, here's what they're saying.
38:37: Job, you've sinned to cause this. And if you'll just repent, it'll all get better.
38:45: God will change it. Job says, no, I haven't sinned to cause this.
38:51: And indeed, we know that he hadn't. What came upon him was because he was a righteous man, not because of his sin.
38:59: They say, yes, you have sinned. No, I haven't. Yes, you have. No, I haven't.
39:06: That's 35 chapters. I mean, it's really true.
39:15: The friends say, Job, you know you sinned because this bad stuff doesn't happen to the righteous.
39:23: God blesses the righteous. And when there's such suffering as this, we know that sin and wickedness is behind it.
39:33: They say it the same thing over and over and over. And Job's response is always the same.
39:40: I did not. I did not sin to cause this. I don't know why it's happening, but I did not sin to cause this.
39:49: And if I could if I could get an audience with Jehovah, I would state my case.
39:55: And you guys finally toward the last speeches, Job is just becoming sarcastic.
40:01: He says, you guys, you're you're horrible physicians of no value.
40:07: You're miserable counselors. You know, you think you're so wise when you guys die, wisdom will all die with you.
40:15: It'll be gone from the world. So it's a war of words that gets heated, that gets hard.
40:23: But Job's friend, they get nowhere convincing him that he had sinned and indeed he had not.
40:31: But Job did not know why it had happened, because God never revealed to him either what was going on or why.
40:41: And I have a I have a suspicion of the primary thing that's behind Job's suffering that God had in mind.
40:52: So shall I continue at this point? Yes, go right ahead. Well, Job is used by the
41:02: Lord as an example of a blameless, godless man in the world, a godly man, a blameless, godly man.
41:11: Apparently, he's singled out as the most godly man in the earth. And Adam, the first man
41:21: God created, sinned and fell. And in Adam, the whole world sinned and fell.
41:28: So Satan attacked the highest point of God's creation, man in the
41:33: Garden of Eden. In the New Testament, we're told that the last Adam, the man
41:40: Jesus Christ was going to come and destroy the works of the devil and regain paradise and restore what man had lost in relationship with God.
41:56: So here you have between Adam and Jesus Christ, this man in Old Testament history,
42:03: Job, who seems to me to be a picture of Christ. He's a blameless, righteous man who didn't deserve to die.
42:12: He didn't deserve to suffer. But he suffers to accomplish cosmic, redemptive pictures that God is going to defeat
42:24: Satan, ultimately through man, that Satan had attacked.
42:30: So I think Job's suffering, his life and his suffering, really is a redemptive type of Jesus Christ.
42:38: But Job never knew that his life was being used like that.
42:44: He's oblivious to the heavenly challenge and what God is doing with his own life.
42:53: Now, there comes a point, though, when God does rebuke
43:02: Job for sin. I mean, his so -called friends were not necessarily correct, especially in the manner with which they rebuked him.
43:15: And what they said to him, I'm assuming you would agree with me, was a mixture of truth and falsehood, as far as his friends go, right?
43:23: Right. But when God, near the conclusion, kind of brings more things to light, does he not rebuke
43:31: Job in the long run for something? He does. And yes, let me just say a word about the friend's speeches.
43:38: It can be very confusing to read their speeches and to discern what they're saying here about God seems right.
43:47: But at the end, God rebukes the friends and tells Job to pray for them.
43:54: They have to take an offering and ask Job to pray for them. So when were they right and when were they wrong?
44:02: Well, they were always wrong when they said, Job, you've sinned and your calamity is because you've sinned.
44:10: They were always wrong when they made those accusations. But they often spoke orthodox high theology that was right about God and his greatness.
44:23: But what they were doing there, they were using orthodox truth.
44:29: They were using biblical truth and applying it wrongly to Job's situation.
44:36: I hope that makes sense. In other words, they were trying to use truth to persuade Job indirectly that he had sinned.
44:44: Just like Word of Faith, Prosperity Gospel, name it and claim it,
44:50: Pentecostals. They are right when they say that there are occasions when people are suffering because they have little or no faith or because of something that they've done in regard to sin.
45:09: They are very wrong and wickedly wrong and heretically wrong when they say that's always the case, that's always the reason.
45:16: Which they do. Exactly. We know that severe suffering is often caused by sin.
45:25: But we don't go to the logical conclusion, therefore, that all suffering is caused by sin.
45:33: And that's what Job's friends did. You know, if you want to put it this way, they were the first prosperity preachers because they didn't believe that God would ever bring or allow suffering.
45:45: It had to be Job's sin of the devil. They were also the first bad Christian counselors.
45:53: They weren't applying the truth properly to Job because they didn't have a clue what was going on and they totally misinterpreted
46:02: Job's experience. But you brought up about God rebuking Job.
46:08: Yes, you get down, when did God do that? Well, you get down to chapter 38 and at 37 all the speeches stop.
46:18: And I kind of put it this way, God shows up to cancel this PhD seminar on Christian philosophy that all
46:28: Job and his friends are having, their argument, their apologetics. And Job's fed up.
46:34: He doesn't want to do it anymore. Well, finally, Job 38 says, the Lord answered
46:39: Job out of the whirlwind. So suddenly God shows up and is speaking out of a whirlwind.
46:47: And it's the first time God speaks into Job's suffering. What you have in Job 38, 39, 40, 41, those chapters through chapter 41, you have
47:06: God. Basically, if you were to count them, there's probably at least 83 questions
47:13: God asked Job. 83 questions. Wow.
47:18: And it ranges from the creation, the animal world, the sea world with the deep, huge sea creatures to all kinds of things in creation.
47:37: And in essence, what God's doing with all those 83 questions, he's saying, Job, you have found fault with me because I haven't explained to you your suffering and I haven't spoken to you.
47:54: So you don't know why you've suffered. And you think it's unjust and unfair for me to let you go through what you're going through without explaining to you why.
48:07: So you have charged me with being unkind and unjust.
48:15: You read the Job speeches when he starts speaking about God. And at times he'll say, you know, if I could find
48:22: God, I would state my case. I would demand an answer because it's not, this is unjust.
48:32: Why am I suffering this way? And I don't know why. Job says it in various ways.
48:39: But even in those speeches, when he's pouring out his complaint of accusing
48:45: God of being unjust, he also mixes statements of faith. He says, though he slay me, yet I will trust him.
48:54: And when I come through this, I'll come forth as gold. So Job does persevere in his faith.
49:02: But he accuses God with his attitude and sometimes with his words. This is unfair.
49:08: You have not been just toward me. So in Job 38, God shows up and he says,
49:16: OK, Job, let me ask you some questions. Do you know when all the wild mountain goats give birth to their babies?
49:28: Are you ever there and you know about that, Job? Job, who set the wild donkeys free?
49:35: Job, who, will the wild ox in the wilderness, are they willing to serve you?
49:41: Can you call them and they'll come? Job is asked these various type of creative questions by the
49:49: Lord. Because Job, to every question, he has to say, no, no,
49:57: I wasn't there. I'll shut my mouth. God's 83 questions to Job are simply designed for Job to say, you know,
50:09: I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know God's ways. God is so far beyond finding out.
50:18: He knows everything and I don't. And then God even says to him in chapter 40,
50:25: Job, prepare yourself like a man. I'll question you and I want you to answer me.
50:31: Can you cast judgment on my judgment? Are you going to condemn me in order that you may be justified?
50:41: Do you have strength in your arms like God does? So through the end of chapter 41,
50:50: God gives him all these questions and Job can't answer one of them.
50:56: And it brings Job to the place of humility and getting back in his place.
51:03: And in chapter 42, verse 2, Job, it says,
51:09: Job answered the Lord and said, I know that you can do everything and that no purpose of yours can be withheld from you.
51:18: I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear. But now my eye sees you and I abhor myself and I repent in dust and ashes.
51:29: So Job was brought back to seeing the greatness and the absolute sovereignty of God and the infinite wisdom of God that though Job did not understand what he was going through,
51:45: God spoke to him at the end clearly. It was all Job needed. He just needed for God to speak again and be real.
51:55: And Chris, this is what is amazing to me. If any of us had to put our children we love through severe hardship, maybe a surgery, maybe something very hard, we would have it in our hearts to try to explain it to them and to be near and comfort them as deeply as we could.
52:18: But what's amazing is God is not like us. In the book of Job, when
52:24: God speaks at the end, he does not bring up Job's suffering one time and he doesn't explain it at all.
52:33: He just restores Job's captivity. He reverses
52:38: Job's situation when Job prayed for his friends. And you read chapter 42,
52:46: Job, in the coming years, he lives another 140 years. He has 10 new children and God restores twice as much as he had before.
52:59: So I can kind of picture this. Job has 140 more years and he saw his children and his grandchildren for four generations.
53:10: And I can picture Job sitting on his back porch and saying when the sun is setting and his grandchildren around him, those children saying,
53:21: Papa Job, tell us the story about what you went through. Tell us about God.
53:28: Job would have rehearsed the amazing lessons of how
53:33: God brought him through the hardest suffering and it's still right to trust
53:39: God. Even when you don't understand and you don't have answers, we can trust
53:45: God when we don't understand or know what he's doing. In fact, we have to go to a break right now.
53:52: It's our midway break. It's a longer than normal break, 12 minutes, because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, 90 .1
53:59: FM, requires a 12 minute break between our two major segments. So please take this time to write questions for Mac Tomlinson.
54:08: And also take this time to write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them.
54:14: Because when you patronize our advertisers, you're further assuring that they will continue to advertise with us.
54:20: And those advertising dollars are a great reason why we can still be on the air. So our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
54:29: We will continue a little bit with the subject of Job in the second hour, but then we will move on to the subject of preserving unity in the local church.
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01:06:05: Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.
01:06:11: I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patti Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
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01:08:58: I'm a little bit tongue -tied today, it seems here on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Please be patient with me.
01:09:04: Before I return to my discussion with Pastor Mack Tomlinson, I just have some very important announcements to make in regard to special events that our sponsors are having.
01:09:19: First of all, we already mentioned earlier, the Fellowship Conference New England is coming up August 2nd through the 4th at the
01:09:29: Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. And we hope that as many of you as possible can attend this event.
01:09:38: The speakers include, all of the speakers include people who have been interviewed on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, some of them multiple times.
01:09:46: But first of all, Pastor Tim Conway is on the roster. He is pastor at Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas.
01:09:54: Pastor Mack Tomlinson, who's my guest today on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and also an author and a book publisher.
01:10:05: Pastor Jesse Barrington, who's been a guest here, a pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, a sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City, Florida, whose radio station,
01:10:19: Grace Life Radio, airs this program every day. And also Pastor Nate Pikowitz, who's been on this program a number of times.
01:10:26: He's an author and pastor of the Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton, Ironworks, New Hampshire.
01:10:33: If you want more information on the Fellowship Conference New England, which is, as I said,
01:10:39: August 2nd through the 4th, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.
01:10:47: Then coming up in November, from the 9th through the 10th of November, the
01:10:53: Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their next conference, their next Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology at the
01:11:01: Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. Speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn.
01:11:14: The theme of the conference is the glory of the cross, and if you'd like to go to alliancenet .org,
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01:11:29: Please make sure you mention to the folks at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals that you heard about the conference from Chris Arns and the
01:11:37: Nine Trepans Iron Radio. Then we have, coming up in January, an excellent conference. They're expecting over 4 ,000 attenders.
01:11:45: That's from Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th.
01:11:52: It is the G3 Conference to be held at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.
01:12:02: The theme is the mission of God, a biblical understanding of missions, and I will have an exhibitor's booth there,
01:12:11: God willing. So please, if you attend, make sure that you greet me at the Iron Trip and Zion Radio exhibitor's booth.
01:12:18: This conference has proven to be extremely valuable to me personally and to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
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01:12:35: Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, and Todd Freel of Wretched Radio, coming up in just a matter of weeks again on Iron Trip and Zion Radio as my guest again.
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01:12:55: Go to G3conference .com, G3conference .com, and click on G3 Conference 2019 to get more details.
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01:14:56: Iron Trip and Zion Radio if you want us to remain on the air. And if you want to advertise with us, send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,
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01:15:34: That email address is also where you could send in a question to our guest today, Mack Tomlinson, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:15:40: chrisarnson at gmail .com. We are starting off this hour by just continuing a little bit of our discussion that we began the last hour on Job, and then we will continue on with the second topic of the day,
01:15:57: Preserving Unity in the Local Church, and that is chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:16:03: if you have questions, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Well, let's first of all,
01:16:10: Mack, go to some questions that have been written to us by listeners.
01:16:17: We have Joe in Slovenia who has a couple of questions for you.
01:16:25: He says, I recently heard some teaching about Job that seemed very insightful and helpful to me, and I wanted to get your input.
01:16:34: The teacher explained that while Job was innocent of any sin that caused the trials he faced at Satan's hand, he sinned in the midst of his trial, in that he overstepped the bounds of faith in his mind, complaining to God about his suffering.
01:16:52: Is this your understanding? And, of course, you did address that a bit. Did Job also, let's see, did
01:17:00: Job, and also do, yeah, I think there's some grammatical errors or typos here, and also do we sin in the midst of our trials by complaining too much to God about the fact and degree of our suffering?
01:17:12: Okay, that's more of a practical issue. Do we sin in the midst of our trials by complaining too much to God about the fact that we are suffering and the degree of our suffering?
01:17:22: If so, please help us with your explanation of how we should address God correctly when, in his providence, we are taken through trials.
01:17:31: And, of course, the psalms are filled with this kind of thing where David and other psalmists are complaining to God, but if you could,
01:17:42: Mack, if you could. Very good questions. The first one, I think our listener has got it right.
01:17:49: Job did overstep his boundaries in complaining, if you will, or rather perhaps charge
01:17:59: God with injustice. He felt like that God owed him an answer, if you will, and more than one time,
01:18:12: Job said, if I could find God, I would state my case and I would demand an answer.
01:18:18: So, yes, he did go too far, but probably not as far as most of us would go if we were in Job's shoes.
01:18:30: I mean, when we suffer severely, we not only can have questions of why, we can develop attitudes of bitterness, unbelief, doubt about God's goodness.
01:18:44: We can begin to feel in our minds and our hearts, God, this is wrong.
01:18:53: Why are you doing this to me? Now, there's a difference between pouring out our complaint with a tender broken heart, with supplication and childlike goodness and tenderness.
01:19:09: There's a difference between that and getting an attitude toward God of anger, of bitterness, and accusing
01:19:21: God wrongly, accusing him of doing wrong. Because anytime we believe
01:19:29: God has done us wrong, he wasn't fair, he shouldn't have allowed this, he shouldn't have done that, then we are stepping across the line that we shouldn't cross.
01:19:40: So, it really is true that you see David in the songs often, pouring out his heart, asking
01:19:50: God why. Lord, how long will you allow this? My soul is in agony.
01:19:57: I'm in the dust. Come to my aid. Help me. But David is crying out in faith and independence with transparent honesty.
01:20:09: And when we cry out in agonizing, transparent honesty and brokenness,
01:20:17: God welcomes that. It's the cries of our heart. But we must not harbor bitterness and anger toward God and accuse him wrongly.
01:20:31: And I think that's where Job crossed the line. He began to demand of God an answer with a wrong attitude.
01:20:39: And as I said, if we had been in his shoes, we probably would have as well. By the way,
01:20:46: Chris, let me real quickly mention a book that I would urge every reader out there to purchase.
01:20:55: And I don't make a dollar off this. It's not a book I wrote. I don't sell books now.
01:21:03: But I would urge every Christian to get the book by Christopher Ash.
01:21:09: It's A -S -H, Christopher Ash, published by Crossway.
01:21:15: The title is Job, the Wisdom of the Cross. Job, the Wisdom of the
01:21:21: Cross. It's a very readable, marvelous, rich book on the message of the book of Job.
01:21:29: It's the best I've ever seen, honestly, on Job. And I've seen many. I would urge every
01:21:34: Christian to note that. Job, the Wisdom of the Cross by Christopher Ash, published by Crossway.
01:21:43: I would urge every Christian to get that and read it. You can read it as a standalone book, or you could read it along with reading through the book of Job.
01:21:53: It will help believers with the theology and the message of Job as much as any book that I know of.
01:22:03: So I highly recommend that book. Well, I will definitely plan on trying to get
01:22:10: Christopher, did you say Christopher Ash? Yes. Well, I'm gonna definitely attempt to get him on the program as well with that kind of endorsement.
01:22:22: But here's some good news for Joe in Slovenia. I don't know if you've heard of this book,
01:22:29: Mac, but when Banner of Truth heard that we were going to be discussing Job, they provided some books to give away to our listeners who had questions today.
01:22:41: And I hope that this is a book that will please you, that we are giving away. It is called
01:22:47: Conflict and Triumph, The Argument of the Book of Job Unfolded, and that is by William H.
01:22:56: Green. That's a Banner of Truth book, and we thank Joe in Slovenia for the question, and we thank you for giving us an
01:23:05: American address in Georgia where your daughter lives. So we will ship that to her, to your attention. Have you ever heard of that book, by the way,
01:23:13: Mac? Yes, I have it. I've used it in preaching in Job.
01:23:20: The Banner of Truth Trust is my favorite publisher of all time. I owe them an immense debt, and yes,
01:23:27: I highly recommend that book as well. Great. And we have another listener who has a question.
01:23:36: Let's see here. I kind of lost my place here. I had all the questions. Okay, here they are. We have
01:23:42: Donna in Waterboro, Maine, and she says, if you,
01:23:50: Pastor Mac, were to create an outline for the Book of Job, what would your points be, and why?
01:24:02: Well, that's a good question. My overall basic outline, and you could, in any good commentary or book on Job, often the author of the book will have a good outline at the beginning of the book, and Christopher Ashe's book actually has that at the beginning with his chapters, but my outline would be
01:24:31: Job 1 and 2, the historical context and event of Job's suffering, because all of Job's family context and his suffering events of losing his wealth and his business, losing his children, losing his wife's support after losing his health, all of the suffering events are outlined in the first two chapters.
01:25:00: So chapters 1 and 2, Job's historical suffering context.
01:25:07: Chapters 3 through 37 are the many speeches and dialogues between Job and his four friends.
01:25:20: First, there's three friends come, but somewhere in the event, a fourth younger friend joins the argument,
01:25:30: Elihu. So from chapter 3 through 38 are the long speeches and dialogues which basically are a war of words, a verbal discussion or debate on the meaning and origin of Job's suffering.
01:25:51: Job's friends all said, you have sinned to cause this. If you'll repent, God will change it.
01:25:57: Job's reply always was, I have not sinned to cause this. I don't know why
01:26:03: God has allowed this, but if I could find him, I would demand an answer.
01:26:09: And then with the coming of chapter 38 is the third major outline,
01:26:18: God's monologue with Job. It's not a dialogue because God speaks and Job hardly says anything.
01:26:26: God asked Job over 80 questions about where were you when I created everything.
01:26:32: Um, Job had to shut his mouth and he repented of his bad attitude toward the
01:26:39: Lord for allowing his suffering without explaining it. Job came to realize he could trust and love
01:26:47: God even when he did not have answers to his questions of why.
01:26:53: And then the conclusion really is chapter 42, the, uh, the restoration of Job in full glory.
01:27:02: His health is restored. His wealth is restored. He's given 10 new children and he lives 140 years to see his great, great grandchildren.
01:27:13: So those would be my major divisions, um, in the book, really.
01:27:21: Well, thank you, Donna. Uh, you have also won a free copy of the book that we were given by Banner of Truth, Conflict and Triumph, the
01:27:32: Argument of the Book of Job unfolded by William H. Green. Uh, and I understand that, uh,
01:27:39: Iron Trip and Zion Radio also already owes you a free New American Standard Bible from the last time that you wrote in.
01:27:49: And we apologize for the delay and the mix up on that. I don't know why you haven't gotten that, but I am making sure that that's being shipped out to you this week.
01:27:57: And, uh, therefore you will, um, God willing have that by Monday and they will probably be mailed separately.
01:28:05: So, uh, the Bible will probably arrive first and then you'll probably get the
01:28:10: Conflict and Triumph book by Banner of Truth possibly a week later. So expect two different shipments for us.
01:28:16: Thank you so much for your patience and for contributing this excellent question today.
01:28:24: Uh, we have Joey in Clifton, New Jersey. Can you please comment on different views you may have uncovered uncovered regarding Satan's appearance before the
01:28:36: Lord, presumably in heaven, and his ability to have such interaction with God, particularly what are the implications for the timing of these events and what has subsequently changed in Satan's ability to so interact?
01:28:52: In fact, that could take a week's worth of programs to discuss that.
01:28:58: But is there any way in summary form before we go to our final break that you could respond to Joey about Satan appearing before God and having interaction with him and what has changed about that?
01:29:12: Yeah, good question, Joey. I think most answers to that will be conjecture, obviously, because it's a very curious point of theology, what's going on there, you know.
01:29:28: But when you read Job chapter 1 and chapter 2, you see the same thing repeated in both instances.
01:29:38: Job 1, 6, now there was a day when the sons of God, that's the angelic creatures, came to present themselves before the
01:29:46: Lord and Satan also came among them. Of course, the word Satan is the
01:29:53: Satan, it's literally the accuser. It wasn't a proper name, it was a title, accuser.
01:30:02: That's what he always was from the time of his fall. He accused
01:30:08: God to man and he accused man to God.
01:30:13: He accused God in the Garden of Eden with Eve and he accuses man to God here in the heavenly scene where he says, well, you know, if Job were to suffer, he would curse you to your face.
01:30:31: So we don't know the context and the reality, actually, of the heavenly scene, of what's going on there with the angels presenting themselves.
01:30:47: We do know for sure, because of true biblical theology, that Satan couldn't come, if you will, uninvited.
01:30:57: He can't just show up and march back into heaven. He had been kicked out. And the view of God and Satan here are not two great powers at war and it's a tug of war and God's trying to win and Satan's countering.
01:31:13: No, God's in absolute, total, sovereign control of this.
01:31:20: We should view Satan appearing before the Lord in terms of God purposing and initiating
01:31:29: Satan to come. As someone said in history, Satan is a bad dog on a long leash.
01:31:38: He can't do anything that God doesn't allow him to do. So he appears in heaven in both of these scenes in chapter 1 and 2 by the direct initiative of God and the permission of God, because God is going to initiate a dialogue with Satan about Job.
01:31:57: This is God's purpose, to bring about things unseen, so Satan, if you will, falls into the trap of God.
01:32:07: Job's going to pass the test and at the end, Satan, like he did with Jesus in the wilderness and anytime he attacked
01:32:17: Christ, Satan had to leave with his tail tucked between his legs, so to speak.
01:32:24: He was always defeated. He was defeated by Job and he was defeated ultimately by the
01:32:31: Lord Jesus Christ. So we can't know more about Satan appearing in heaven than what the
01:32:37: Bible actually says to us. That would be my best answer. Well, thank you,
01:32:44: Joey, and you've actually given me a prod to have another program on the demonic and specifically on Satan himself.
01:32:56: And I know that I've done a couple of programs, several on demonic activity in the demonic realm, but I don't know if I've ever done a single program solely on the person of Satan.
01:33:09: So that will be an interesting program and I appreciate you giving me the nudge with this question to do so.
01:33:19: Well, we are going to our final break right now. Oh, let me just quickly ask a question from a first time listener.
01:33:27: You've already really answered this, but I'll ask it anyway. And perhaps you could add something that you may not have said before.
01:33:35: Elizabeth from Poland, Maine. I don't know if she tuned in late, but she said, was the account of Job real?
01:33:44: I'm assuming she means as opposed to a parable. You already said it was true.
01:33:49: It was historical. Perhaps you could add to that question, since you've already answered it.
01:33:57: Why is that important? Because we do have parables in the Bible that are not actual historical events.
01:34:03: So why is it important that we know that the account of Job was true in a historical event?
01:34:11: Right. Well, the evangelical, historically accurate view of Scripture is to view the
01:34:23: Old Testament as true events, true history, true people in time and in space.
01:34:31: And you start that with Adam and Eve. The Bible leads us to believe that Adam and Eve were literal people in a literal place and not symbolic of something.
01:34:47: And the way the book of Job starts out in chapter one, it says there was a man in the land of Uz whose name was
01:34:55: Job. And so the writer unfolds the details.
01:35:02: And so even the language leads us to believe this person was real in history.
01:35:09: And we have no reason to spiritualize that or make it symbolic at all.
01:35:15: We can't take lessons with Scripture that way. But another and the final thing
01:35:20: I would say about it, the New Testament authors affirm the historicity of the man
01:35:28: Job. The book of James, for instance, calls us to remember and take
01:35:34: Job as an example of endurance and suffering.
01:35:41: So the New Testament affirms the historicity of Job itself. So that would be my answer.
01:35:48: We have no reason or evidence to think otherwise.
01:35:57: Well, thank you, Elizabeth, in Poland, Maine. Give me your full mailing address in Poland, Maine.
01:36:04: I wonder if that's where Poland spring bottled water comes from. But anyway, send us your full mailing address because you've also won not only a free copy of the book
01:36:16: Conflict and Triumph, the argument of the book of Job unfolded by William H.
01:36:22: Green, published by Banner of Truth. You've also won a free New American Standard Bible since you are a first time questioner.
01:36:29: And just like I said to our other winner, expect those two to be to deliver to you separately, most likely.
01:36:39: And you may get the Banner of Truth book a week after you get the New American Standard Bible.
01:36:45: So please give us your full mailing address so we could get that out to you. And by the way, I don't know if I mentioned to Joey in Clifton, New Jersey, you also won a copy of the book by Banner of Truth, Conflict and Triumph by William H.
01:36:58: Green. So make sure we have your full mailing address too. And that will be shipped out to you by our friends at cvbbs .com, cvbbs .com.
01:37:06: And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for always mailing out our winners and our audience all of the
01:37:12: Bibles and books and DVDs and other things that they win when they send in questions to our guests.
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01:43:52: But we are back with our final 15 minutes with our guest today, Mack Tomlinson, and we are switching gears.
01:44:00: We obviously will not be able to do full justice to the topic since we only have 15 minutes left, but we are going to be addressing preserving unity in the local church.
01:44:11: And, Pastor Mack, what do you think are the most frequently cited reasons, that you know of anyway, as to why there is conflict within the local body of Christ, and in fact so much so that there are occasions for splits?
01:44:30: Yeah, well, you know, usually divisions in a church or lack of unity is normally not theological or doctrinal.
01:44:44: It's usually something practical or something very relational that always causes divisions in churches.
01:44:56: And when it comes down to it, every church division or church relational problem, if the root causes were to be seen, it would boil down to pride or a divisive spirit.
01:45:12: Now, the New Testament warns several places in the strongest language, mark those who cause division and have nothing to do with them.
01:45:22: A division is caused by people demanding their own way on either on important or secondary issues.
01:45:32: It is caused by judging one another wrongly and not being willing to communicate with each other when there's disagreement.
01:45:43: Division is caused by people harboring bitterness or unforgiveness, having a critical spirit, and often just criticizing church leaders, and then gossip begins to happen in the name of concern, in the name of, would you pray about this, our pastor is, you know, this or that.
01:46:07: So, usually these type of reasons are the root causes of division.
01:46:18: Yeah, going back to the theological reasons, which you think are the rarer reason, even though, obviously, anytime there's division in the body of Christ, it is because of the existence of sin.
01:46:33: It's because we live in a fallen world, obviously. But that is not to say that sometimes when a church splits over theology, the more important reason, sometimes that is a necessary thing if a church either has half of the people enter into serious doctrinal error, or if a number of church members begin to discover deeper truths that the the church has historically either abandoned or neglected, and they realize we cannot continue on with the current, underneath the authority of the current church confession, or mission statement, or constitution, or what have you, and these folks have to leave.
01:47:26: This is not something that we should be faulting every group of people that split from a church over, am
01:47:33: I right? You're absolutely right. In those cases, you know, we would call that separation for the sake of biblical orthodoxy.
01:47:47: No Christian should stay in a church that's liberal or denying the gospel, and often
01:47:55: I know the church in Dallas years ago, that very large church, and the denomination was embracing officially within their national conferences, a liberal position, even embracing homosexuality, and this church in, yeah, and so this church in consisting of thousands of people,
01:48:25: I know two thousand believers had to exit for conscience sake and separate, and they formed another church immediately, so such separation is essential oftentimes.
01:48:41: So when I talk about causing division, I'm talking about being divisive when it's wrong to be divisive, and I think, you know, discerning
01:48:56: Christians know what, know the difference. We can often disagree or have to separate, but our separation ought to be over the gospel, or over orthodox
01:49:09: Christian doctrine, and not even secondary issues. I'm a conviction, but some of my closest, dearest friends are
01:49:19: Presbyterians or in Reformed denominations that hold to paedo -baptism, and we're very close friends, and we would never let that issue cause us to break fellowship or separate from one another, and I'm talking about being in the
01:49:39: Bible of schism or schism and being divisive against true believers unnecessarily.
01:49:46: Right, like for instance what you just said could very rightly cause a, how did you phrase it, a split, or if you have within a
01:50:00: Presbyterian church a number of brethren, a considerable number of brethren who become convicted of credo or credo or believer -only baptism, there would be nothing wicked about them leaving to form a
01:50:14: Reformed Baptist church, I'm assuming you would believe. I would agree. If they come to the place where they feel like their conscience brings them that position, then they should be able to, and this is a marvelous example because the church they lead, the leaders who hold to paedo -baptism would probably support their separation to follow their own doctrinal convictions, but that paedo -baptist church and that newly -forming credo -baptist church could still preserve loving unity even though they disagree.
01:51:00: Yes, and obviously the same goes for the other way around, where if a group of people in a
01:51:06: Reformed Baptist church become convicted of infant baptism, especially if they have infants and little tiny children that they want to see baptized, well then they would have to leave or get the permission of their pastors to have their children baptized in another church.
01:51:25: But obviously, as you just said, that does not mean that there should be bitterness and accusations of apostasy and disfellowship and all that kind of thing.
01:51:37: Exactly right. But we have a very brief time, we only have seven minutes left, so I want you to come back to address this issue for at least an hour the next time, perhaps two since we have already proven that one hour could not handle our first issue properly.
01:51:57: But let me read another question from Joe in Sylvania who wrote in about this topic.
01:52:04: I learned recently by reading Martin Lloyd -Jones that true unity in the church as described in the
01:52:10: New Testament is specifically taught as applying to unity within each local body, each local church, not ecumenicism among denominations.
01:52:23: That unity which is taught in scripture is based completely on unity within the bounds of scriptural orthodoxy, not based on a relational affinity among individuals or churches devoid of sound biblical doctrine.
01:52:37: Dr. Jones was teaching in his day that the Bible defines unity based on adherence to the truth of scripture and that those who are the schismatics are those who introduce and promote heterodox and heretical teaching, not those who teach and insist on faithfulness to God's Word.
01:52:56: Is this your understanding as well? If so, please explain why, in your opinion, we seem to have lost this distinction in our day.
01:53:04: Also, what should we be doing and not doing to maintain unity as God would have it in the church?
01:53:12: And yeah, Dr. Jones was very opposed to ecumenism with those who deny the gospel.
01:53:19: For instance, from what I understand, he was extremely critical of two friends of his,
01:53:26: J .I. Packer and the late John Stott, for their ecumenical understanding or relationship with Roman Catholicism.
01:53:36: Well, that's true. I mean, he did remain friends with them and he did not become harsh, but he was very courageous and very uncompromising that they were giving a call to have unity with liberals who were denying the gospel and who even had unbelievers in the church and even to the extent of outward unity with the
01:54:11: Roman Catholic Church. And Lloyd -Jones said, absolutely not. That's a false unity.
01:54:18: It's not based on the truth of the gospel. Lloyd -Jones was not calling for unity in terms of total agreement at every point of Christian doctrine, but unity on what the gospel is and what it means to be a
01:54:33: Christian. And he was a lone voice in those years in the 20th century calling for that, but he is a great example of a man to read and he helped me more as an author more than anyone else on this very topic.
01:54:54: Praise God. Perhaps you could just spend the last few minutes answering the question, what should we be doing and not doing to maintain unity?
01:55:07: Well, usually the way disunity happens in a church is someone gets dissatisfied with something.
01:55:13: Someone gets offended about something. It could be how they think their children were treated all the way to they were left out of something.
01:55:24: You know, any little thing, the enemy will blow up in people's minds to make them feel flighted or offended.
01:55:33: And so they then retreat and they get a critical spirit in their mind and then they begin to talk.
01:55:39: And so this is usually how the seeds of disunity are planted. I would say this, every
01:55:48: Christian should read in the New Testament the many, many calls by the Apostle Paul and even
01:55:54: Peter to preserve unity, the absolute importance and priority of preserving unity in the local church.
01:56:03: If a church doesn't have a loving unity, it doesn't matter how good its doctrine is, how great its preaching is, how nice of a building they have.
01:56:12: If they don't have loving unity, they don't have a good witness. And so preserving unity, the
01:56:19: Apostle Paul shows us, is the priority in the local church. How do we do that?
01:56:25: By majoring on the majors, the gospel, and not, if we are offended, keeping a humble spirit and go to the people that have offended us and humbly communicate, remembering and also remembering that the unity of the church is a powerful witness to other believers and to unbelievers.
01:56:49: And if our unity is destroyed, it is sin. And those who are guilty of causing division, they're really in trouble with the
01:56:59: Lord. Because Psalm 133 is a marvelous psalm about how beautiful it is when brethren dwell together in unity.
01:57:09: It's there, the psalmist said, that God's going to command His blessing. So it's the most important thing after a right view of the gospel that a church can have.
01:57:22: Now let me end on this, if I could. To all the listeners,
01:57:28: Chris doesn't know I'm going to say this, and he's never asked me to say anything about this, but I just want to encourage every one of you listeners, whether you're a first time or a regular listener, to consider budgeting into your monthly giving, supporting
01:57:47: Iron Sharpens Iron, whatever you could do. This radio ministry reaches a lot of people.
01:57:56: It helps people in places where they don't even have a biblical church. And God has used this program over the years in a very wonderful way.
01:58:06: I just want to give a call as a personal supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron. I want to ask you who are listening today to just choose to budget some amount and let it go to Iron Sharpens Iron.
01:58:21: Your gift really can make all the difference in helping, and I really ask you today to consider that sincerely.
01:58:31: Wow, thank you so much Pastor Mack, and that is true. I did not know you were going to say that, and I thank you so much for that, and I thank
01:58:39: God for you for saying that. And I just want to make sure our listeners have all of your contact information.
01:58:48: First of all, don't forget the Fellowship Conference New England is coming up very quickly, August 2nd through the 4th in Portland, Maine.
01:58:57: The website where you can get more details is fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,
01:59:05: and also don't forget about Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. Their website is providencechapel,
01:59:12: I'm sorry, providencedenton .org, providencedenton .org,
01:59:18: that's D as in David, E -N -T -O -N .org. Thank you so much Pastor Mack.
01:59:23: I look forward to your return to the program very soon and very often, and I'm looking forward to interviewing all of the speakers on your roster for the
01:59:31: Fellowship Conference New England, and I want to thank everybody. Thanks so much Chris. Thank you, and I want to thank all the listeners who tuned in today, especially those who wrote in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater