The Cutting Room Floor Ep 6 - "What are the Means of Grace?"

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're listening to this. I am Kofi Adewale, I'm here with Eddie Casillas, and this is episode six, six?

Yeah, I think you said it was six.

Yes. Okay.

Episode six of the Cutting Room Floor Podcast, a podcast where we dig in a little deeper into the sermons preached at the Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Medford, Oregon, and just have some great discussion.

Eddie, how are you doing?

So far, so good, man. Thanks for having me back.

Always good, always good to be back. This week, we are talking about... We're actually behind, which is probably a good place to start. We are officially now, we'll probably be two weeks behind by the time we get time to record the rest, which is good.

Hopefully, some more mature thought based on this.

Yeah, yeah.

I've had my post-sermon nightmare where I thought about all the stuff I should have.

Said.

But in this sermon, we are a little behind, but we're going to talk about the sermon that was preached a couple of weeks ago on what are the means of grace? A topic that we don't often talk about in evangelical circles, mostly because most evangelicals don't really know what the means of grace are, but we'll hopefully talk about that and have a good discussion.

So I'll turn it over to Eddie and we'll kick off from there.

The Difference Between Roman Catholic Sacraments and the Means of Grace

Yeah, I think one of the things that you learn from growing up in these evangelical circles, at least from my experience, that these new terms are so different, especially the means of grace. And you think about that, and I mean, before I had no idea what it was.

I didn't even have a category for it. I just knew, go to church, sing a song, and then hear the word a little bit, go home. That was pretty much what I knew. And so coming into a new understanding of the means of grace and knowing that they're very particular things that we do in the body of Christ is massive.

And so one of the questions I had, Kofi, you know, what are the major differences between something you mentioned in the sermon? So like there was the seven sacraments versus the means of grace. Um, you know, honestly, I don't know too much about that.

I know I've heard of that in Rome, but I don't know if they view it in that way. And so could you just expand on that a little bit more?

Sure.

So let me, I think I have this resource. Let me double check. This might make our job a little bit easier in answering that question.

So I don't have it.

Okay.

I thought I did.

Um, so when we talk about this idea of the, um, the sacraments versus the means of grace, first of all, as historic Protestants, we would say that actually we believe in the sacraments. We just don't believe in seven of them.

That's where the debate is. How many are there? We would say that there are two. Primarily, there are some who would argue that there are more ordinances than that. Um, even in Protestant circles, but I think the historic reformed understanding of the two sacraments being, uh, baptism and the Lord's table, uh, those are the ones we see clearly prescribed to us in the Bible in that sort of way.

Well, you have those Rome says that there are seven and I was trying to pull up what the actual list of, I always get one wrong. So I'm going to use trusty Google and then Google will help me out here.

So seven, seven sacraments of the Catholic church.

That was nice and easy.

So I guess this is from a Catholic church.

Yes, it is.

Okay.

So for the benefit of those of you who are watching at home, I am going to pull up a.

Slide here.

That's the one.

Okay.

Um, introduction to the seven sacraments. Also shout out to my fantasy football team. Um, but for now we're not talking fantasy football. We're talking about fantasy sacraments. Anyway, Rome says, this is one Roman Catholic church, St. Anthony of Padua, apparently in Revere, Massachusetts.

Okay.

Sacraments are efficacious signs of Christ instituted by signs of grace, excuse me, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the church through which divine life is given. There are seven sacraments. So, so far, if you that first sentence, not too much difference from the reformation understanding of the means of grace, I would quibble about maybe what their definition of divine life is.

Um, but we would generally say, yes, they instituted by Christ. They entrusted to the church and they do do something. They're efficacious in that way. Let's read on. There are seven sacraments. Now, this is where we start to, if the road was kind of together at this point, this is where we go into a fork.

Rome says there are seven baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, reconciliation, anointing of the sick, also known as holy unction, um, or last rights, matrimony and holy orders. Sacraments are classified as Christian initiation, baptism, confirmation, and the Eucharist sacraments of healing, reconciliation, anointing the sick and sacraments of commitments, uh, matrimony and holy orders.

And so Rome says that there are seven of these things. And I imagine this article, okay. It doesn't quite tell you what all seven of them are, but essentially you've got baptism that's straightforward, uh, confirmation that's a slightly more complicated one.

Um, the Eucharist Lord's table, as we would understand as Protestants, uh, reconciliation. Oh, I didn't quite meant to do that.

There we go.

The anointing of the sick has it's called, or some traditions call it unction or last rights. So that's when someone is dying, you, um, you know, annoyed them in the way of kind of letting them know the end is coming.

Um, matrimony, which is marriage, which is interesting. Rome says that marriage is a sacrament and then holy orders. Holy orders is, um, somebody committing to one of the religious orders of the church, essentially.

So those who are monks or nuns are typically partaking of the sacrament of holy orders. Those who are priests, uh, those sorts of things. Um, and obviously they would say in the Catholic system that the Eucharist occupies a unique place as the sacrament of sacraments and all the other sacraments are ordered to it as to their end.

So that's the Rome's understanding. We can get rid of that. Now, as performed Christians, we would say, well, yes, there are sacraments, but the Bible is very clear what the sacraments are baptism in the Lord's supper.

And there are means of grace, but we won't call, we don't confuse it and call them sacraments. So yes, we would agree. And this one, I know I do have in Logos. If I can open this up. So the Westminster.

Attic ism talks about this confession. Here we go. So in the Westminster, here's the language that's used, uh, for the Lords. Well, for the means of grace, not just the Lord's table. So once again, for the benefit of those of you at home, you can see this, those of you.

Listening in audio, um, area.

So question one 54 in the Westminster, larger catechism says, what are the outward means whereby by which Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation. So you can already see a little, some significant, a little, but the significant differences of language here.

So first of all, what are the outward means? So these are physical things that we can see. This isn't something that happens internally. Like I said, in the sermon on Sunday, I'm sure we'll get back to it.

We're not talking about the grace of God that we experienced in salvation or the grace of God is shown in Jesus. So what are we talking about here? We're talking about the ministration of God in the soul.

Well, what is the outward means by which Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation. In other words, this is how I started the sermon. If I remember right. Jesus loves the church. He loves every individual Christian.

The church is on earth. He is in heaven. How is it that we enjoy the benefits of his ascension and session in heaven down here on earth? Well, it means he's given is these means of grace. So here's how our fathers in the faith answered it.

The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church. The benefits of his mediation are all his ordinances, especially the word sacraments and prayer, which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation.

Now, we've got to be very careful that we read that word salvation properly. Thank you logos for being more helpful than I asked.

There we are.

When we use that term salvation, it's not referring to justification. Oftentimes we will equate the two in the Bible. Salvation is actually an umbrella term. It deals with yes justification. Also those of our sanctification and deals with our future glorification.

The way this often, the way that this is often described is. We have been saved. We are being saved. We will be saved. And so when it talks about being made effectual to the elect for their scientific salvation, I would argue in some authors do that.

Primarily what's being spoken of here is sanctification, our ongoing growth in godliness, where we're being made more like Jesus. Well, the means that God gives to make that happen is his word. The sacraments and prayer.

And so when we talk about the means of grace, that's very different to Rome's understanding where you've got these seven sacraments and the seven sacraments are to varying degrees. Um, you know, that's a varying degrees, actual containers, if you will, for divine life.

Now we're seeing though the believer already knows the grace of God, but now we're talking the subjective application of that. Well, he gives us his word. He gives us the water and the table and he gives us prayer.

So that, that would be the difference between our understanding and Rome's understanding. Kind of a long answer. I'll try and keep my future answers shorter, but that's a good question. Yeah, that's a good question because people will get confused on that and will often mix up the two, which can get very dangerous.

How Baptism, the Lord's Table, and Prayer Nourish the Soul

Well, that was very helpful. So thanks for that, Kofi. It's interesting that, you know, the means of grace is kind of what, well in particular with like preaching, that particularly is what nourishes our soul, right?

And so what effect do the other means of grace have on us as people in the body of Christ?

Well, I would say all of them nourish our soul, not just preaching. Um, so as you know, in baptism, we are reminded of the promises of God, that we have Romans chapter six, we have died with Christ, that we have been buried with him.

We have been raised with him to newness of life. That's when we baptize somebody, we are saying, yes, you are being united to Christ. The act of baptism doesn't unite them to Christ, but there's such a close relationship between the picture and what the picture represents, what our father in the face said, the sign and the thing that is signified.

There's such a close relationship there. That's why we don't take baptism as a joke. It's a serious thing because we are communicating to this person. You are part of God's family. You have been saved by the grace of God.

And that, as that word is spoken over them, remember all of these sacraments are nourishing as they're connected to the word of God. And so as the promises of God are spoken over, this person is about to be baptized.

That nourishes their soul because they're reminded once again of what God has done. It's nourishing for all of us who watch it, because we are being reminded of what the word of God says. And the same thing is true of the Lord's table.

I personally take Calvin's view of the Lord's table, that Christ is really present in the table or at the table, I should say, as he partakes spiritually with his people, the body, the bread and the cup doesn't become his literal body and blood, but he is present with his people in a special way at that moment.

And so, of course, that is nourishing to their faith as they are reminded once again of the fact that there is sitting in glory, a man who has been resurrected, who lived for them and died for them and rose for them.

And so it nourishes their faith that way, as we are reminded in a very physical way, as we eat bread and we drink a cup, we're reminded of what has been done for us. And the same thing is true of prayer.

In the scriptures, God speaks to us as his people in prayer, we speak back to God. And the thing is, even in prayer, we're still speaking God's word back to him. So as we're speaking God's word back to him, his people are being strengthened, they're being encouraged, they're being equipped to glorify him.

So it's not just the word of God and the preaching of the word of God that nourishes our souls, all of these means of grace nourish our souls because they are all in one way or another connected to the word of God.

That's what makes the difference.

Amen. How is the gospel connected with each means of grace?

Oh, that's a great question.

No, you're on fire tonight.

I like it.

I like it.

I like it. Well, all of them are connected. So it's through the word of God and the preaching of the word of God that we hear the gospel. In baptism, we are seeing a visual reminder of the death, the burial and the resurrection of our Lord Jesus, which is itself the heart of the gospel, the Lord's table.

We are reminded once again that a body was broken for us and the blood was shed for us, which enables us to be partakers of the new covenant, enables us to be part of the family of God. I think we mentioned on Sunday where Jesus said, I will not eat this again until I don't drink this again, excuse me, until I'm with you in the kingdom of my father.

And so there is a wonderful relationship. All these sacraments have prayers, the same thing in prayer. We know because of what Jesus has done. Hebrews chapter four, we now have access to the throne of grace, where we're able to find grace to help us.

That's why our fathers in the faith said prayers and means of grace. Because he said, well, prayer is how we find grace to help. We find mercy and find grace to help in time of need. So all four of the sacraments, or excuse not sacraments, means of grace, all four of the means of grace are connected to the gospel in some way, shape or form.

And it's important for us to note that when we talk about these means of grace, just doing the means of grace doesn't avail you anything. This is the difference between the reformed view of the means of grace and the Catholic view of the sacraments.

The sacraments operate on a principle to use the Latin phrase ex operae operatum, the operation of the thing that is operating or the working of the thing that is worked. In other words, just by doing the act, the sacraments are said to have power.

We would say no, just partaking of the Lord's table. Paul makes it clear in first Corinthians 11, there were people who were partaking of the Lord's table and they ate it to their damnation. Why? Because they were doing so in a manner that demonstrated a lack of faith.

Same thing with the preaching of God's word. Hebrews chapter four, it says that, you know, the word of God didn't profit them since it was not united with faith in those who heard it. So these means of grace cannot be disconnected from faith.

If there is no active faith in the promise of God in these means, the means will not profit you. And so when we think about the gospel and the conditions of the means of grace, ultimately this is a faith life, not the company that makes logos like actual faith life.

You know, this is the life of faith for God's people. As you partake of these things, we are demonstrating the faith that we have in the promise of God.

Amen. Man, the implication of the implications of having faith in Christ are just so massive for our lives and what the Holy Spirit does.

Absolutely.

Man, that's awesome. So, you know, let's switch it up a little bit. On that Sunday, you were talking about a little bit about God's attributes, but in particular, his perfections. And one of the things you said was that grace was a perfection.

Can you tell me a little more about what you meant by that?

Sure.

The Grace of God as a Divine Perfection

So when we talk about the attributes, I don't like the same attributes. So I prefer perfections, the attributes or perfections of God. We're talking about those elements of the divine essence that make God who he is.

So if we say that there is a divine essence, well, what is this divine essence? I want to be careful in my language here. There are parts to God or like God is like a big vat of water that we pour things into and mix it up.

That's not what I'm saying. But in the very being of God, from our perspective as human creatures, we see love, joy, holiness, peace, those sorts of things. And we would say that the grace of God is one such aspect of what we see on a creaturely level in this one being of God.

And in particular, the grace of God is his unmerited favor towards those that don't deserve his favor. So in the grace of God, we are saying that God shows kindness to undeserving sinners, not because of anything the sinners have done, but because that's just who he is.

And so when we talk about the grace of God as one of his perfections, that's what we mean. That it is a part of the being of God that he shows undeserved favor to sinners, not because of anything in them, but entirely because of everything in him.

Awesome. Yeah, that's really helpful as well. And so would you say that God, that God is his attributes all the time?

I think that's a fair way of putting it.

I think the way I've described it is that God is all of his attributes all of the time.

Okay.

So you can't say, well, God is being holy right now, but he's not being loving and just, and you can't just, it's not a pie that you split up into little bits and say, right now, this part of the quadrant is active versus this part.

Ultimately, the distinctions that we see as creatures, we see because we're creatures. And so as limited as we are, we can only see one or two things at a time, but God is all of those things all of the time.

The technical term for this in theology is simplicity, that God is not made up of parts, but there was just one unbounded, glorious essence that makes God who he is.

Awesome. So is, is, is grace a substance?

No.

And I think that's important. It's an important question to ask because one of the objections that some people have to this language of the means of grace is this. It sounds too close to Rome and Rome basically makes grace into a substance.

It's a tangible thing that can be dispensed in these containers called the sacraments. We're not saying that. Again, in the sermon, we talked about the three ways the Bible talks about the grace of God.

There is grace as the attribute or perfection of God. There is grace as shown in Jesus Christ. Titus 2 .11 says the grace of God has appeared and that's clearly referring to Christ. And then there is grace as I think I put it in the sermon, the subjective working of God in our soul.

So how God deals with us in that immaterial part of us made up of our mind, our will, and our emotions. But when we talk about the means of grace, it's not so much that the means of grace is a dispenser for this substance.

This isn't like the word of faith where they teach that faith is a substance and words are the container. We're not saying that at all. What we're saying is that this is the means by which God works on the level of our soul to bring about an experience and an awareness of his grace that's being poured out in Christ.

Grace Is a Person, Not a Product

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of the highlights that one of the things you said that was a highlight was that grace is not a product, but it's a person.

Right.

And when I think of grace, I think of an undeserved gift, you know, and that was Christ. We didn't necessarily deserve it.

Right.

We're far from it. So could you just expand on that a little bit, that fact that grace is a person and not why it's not a product?

Absolutely.

So text, I will take someone to if they had that question is John chapter one of verse 14, where John says that the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. That if you want a visible representation of what the grace of God looks like, it's the fact that God gave undeserving sinners his best, his only son.

Yeah.

And so when you look at it from that perspective, what we're simply saying is that ultimately God's grace isn't just a plan that he puts in place, but it's a plan that centers around a person, his son.

And so you really cannot understand the grace of God without understanding who Jesus is.

Amen. Kofi, can you talk a little bit about why the means of grace are ordinary? I mean, that kind of sounds like boring, you know, why aren't they like supernatural means of grace with power, power, power or whatever, you know?

I mean, they do have power, you know, I mean, they do have power. We want to be careful not to downplay what they are. They are incredibly powerful. But when we use that language of ordinary means of grace, we're talking about just the usual means that God uses.

So can God use, can God use extraordinary means to bring about his purpose?

Yeah, he can.

And he does. You see that all throughout salvation history. You know, he uses supernatural and irregular means to bring about his purpose. He's God, he can do anything he wants. But when we talk about ordinary means of grace, we mean just the regular means by which God operates.

And so it's not to say that if you hear ordinary, you hear that to mean only, that's not what we're saying. The way I often describe it is God may bless other things. But he has promised to use these.

So there are other things that God may use. So if I can get controversial, it's become popular in our circle. Well, not in our circles, but even evangelical circles to talk about spiritual disciplines.

Some of my friends reject that language entirely. I'm not quite there, if I'm honest. But I do think at times the way that the language of spiritual disciplines is used is almost as though this is a substitute for the means of grace.

So if you think about it, now some of the quote unquote spiritual disciplines aren't bad things like Bible intake, prayer, memorizing scripture. Those aren't bad things. There are some things that the Bible doesn't explicitly say, it doesn't make them necessarily wrong.

So, for example, one example would be, shoot, you just escaped me.

Journaling.

Like, OK, I'm going to, some of my friends are very derogatory about that. I think it's useful, personally. But it's useful. But is it commanded for me to do that?

No.

If you don't journal, and actually, I don't at this stage of my life. I have in the past. If I don't, am I spiritually unhealthy or lacking the grace of Christ if I don't? The answer is no. So we separate between what is commanded and what you can do.

And when we say, that's why we use this language of the ordinary means of grace. These are the things that we are commanded to do. These are the things that God has said he will bless. So it's not that you can't do other things.

You just have to be very careful that, one, they're not contravening what scripture says. And two, that they're not taking us away from the means of grace. And if you wanted to chase a good rabbit, we can ask the question, what kinds of things have we put together in evangelical circles that take people away from the means of grace, but they think are more important than the means of grace?

But we're not doing that tonight.

So unless you want to.

Yeah, actually, I was kind of heading there.

Okay, then.

Yeah, because the point was that there are certain things that God has appointed, right? And so there's other things that are under pointed that distract us from the means of grace. And so we don't necessarily have to spend a whole lot on it.

But I mean, there's just a few examples. I mean, there's a lot. But the point is that God appointed them, right?

And, you know, since we're here, let's have a conversation for a second. The things that we do that aren't necessarily wrong things, but they're not commanded things. Unfortunately, if you think about it, these are the things that people tend to get the most emotional about.

So I'll give you an example. Let's use one that a lot of people won't be happy with, but you won't get in trouble. I will. So it's fine. Small groups. Does the Bible explicitly command us to have small groups?

The answer is no, if we're honest. Are they a bad thing? Well, no. I mean, we have them. If we thought they were bad, we wouldn't have them. But think about this in most evangelical churches. And I know this is to be the case, because I've encountered this firsthand.

How many people will tell you that my local church isn't my, you know, my local church is not my, how do I put this? The local church isn't where I'm most ministered to. So when we gather on the Lord's day, or we gather if some churches do, some churches don't.

But if we had a midweek service, if we gather for that, that's not where I'm ministered to. The real ministry happens in my small group. I want to say,.

Let's pump the brake a little bit. Let's pump the brake a little bit.

Does the Bible actually say that, or does the Bible say that it's the means of grace is how we're built up? Oh, when do we most experience those means of grace in our corporate gathered worship?

On the Lord's day, right?

On the Lord's day. So not wrong to have growth groups. Our church has growth groups. We have two of them. You're looking at the two leaders of the growth groups. So we're not opposed to them. But if it ever became a thing where that was where people say, that's my real church.

I know I can say this as a pastor, I'm sure Eddie, you would agree. We would have a conversation about, okay, that's a problem.

What do we do?

Yeah.

Because that's not commanded. That's a supplemental thing we're doing because we think it's helpful.

Yeah.

Be a little more controversial. Here's another one. You've heard people say that it's important to have accountability partners when we're struggling with sin.

Now, is that a bad thing?

No.

In the multitudes of counsel, there's safety. I think there's wisdom in that. But is your accountability group where the Bible says we deal with sin?

No.

Matthew chapter 18, Galatians chapter six, Romans 12 that we looked at. When sin arises, it's the local churches where we deal with that. And so I want to say, I'm not saying we throw these things out.

I'm simply saying, let's put them in their proper perspective and their proper proximity to the means of grace. The means of grace are primary. If you have the option between doing this thing and the means of grace, do the means of grace and leave this thing alone.

It'll be fine.

Absolutely.

Controversial in some sectors, really controversial. But I think in the long run, we end up having healthier churches and more committed members in those churches when we keep that distinction very, very crisp.

Yeah.

So here's a question in regards to the guy who says, you know, I feel like I get fed more during my midweek Bible studies than I do on the Lord's day. This guy also says that every day is the Lord's day and that the means of grace are the same thing.

They're every day in his own opinion. How would you answer that person?

So first of all, I'm not a Sabbatarian.

So yeah,.

But actually, I don't think every day is a Sabbath. I think every day is the Lord's day and every day is a Sabbath in the sense of every day is resting Christ.

So yeah.

But I was thinking about this just the other day.

I'm like,.

I was thinking to myself, I said,.

Kofi,.

You're not a Sabbatarian, but you're as close to a Sabbatarian as you can be without being a Sabbatarian.

Real quick, what's a Sabbatarian, Kofi?

So a Sabbatarian is somebody who says that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath and we should treat it like the Sabbath under the old covenant. That's a broad, broad summary,.

But basically that.

I'm not convinced of that position. I think there's some questions that you need to ask. Um, in fact, if you want someone who makes a very fascinating perspective on this, John Calvin, if you read his institutes and his exposition of the 10 commandments, I'm trying to get my microphone in place here.

There we go.

Um,.

So Calvin in his institutes,.

Um,.

Actually when he deals with the fourth commandment, he takes a very different view from where the Westminster and London Baptist confessions go with it. I would be much more in agreement with Calvin's view.

Um, then I would with the Westminster and the London Baptist at that point. But that's what Sabbatarian means. Someone who says that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath and should be treated like the Sabbath under the old covenant,.

More or less.

So I'm not that.

And so in that sense,.

Yeah, I do think every day is a Sabbath. That being said, I do read in the Bible and this will be next week's episode.

Um,.

Hebrew chapter 10 verses 24 and 25. That we are to bear in mind, we are to consider, we're to think about how we will provoke one another to love and good works, not neglecting the gathering together of ourselves as is the manner of some, but encouraging one another and doing so all the more as you see the day of Christ approaching.

So that implies that, okay, there is a specific time when we get together for that purpose. I would also add Revelation chapter one of verse 10 uses this language of, I was in the spirit on the Lord's day.

Some people will take that. I used to take that as, I was talking about the day of the Lord, as in this period of judgment that's shown in Revelation. That's not historic Christian usage by and large.

When that day is mentioned in Revelation one term, we all know that's talking about the first day of the week. We see a pattern in the new Testament of believers gathering first day of the week for worship and for encouragement.