November 30, 2017 Show with William F. Hill, Jr. on “How to Choose a Church & How to Leave it When Necessary”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 30th day of November 2017, and I'm delighted to have back on the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program William F Hill Jr. He is the former host of the

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Confessing Our Hope podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and he's also a pastor of the

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Fellowship Presbyterian Church in Newport, Tennessee, which is a congregation within the

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Presbyterian Church in America, also commonly known as the PCA, and today we are going to be speaking on a very important and I think a very practical and very common issue that needs to be addressed, and that is the issue, it's actually two issues that we'll be discussing over the next two hours that are related to the same theme, basically.

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It is how to choose a church and how to leave it when necessary, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Bill Hill.

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Yeah, Chris, thank you. Thanks for having me back on. It's always a great privilege. Hey, it's always a pleasure to have you on, brother, and in studio with me is my co -host, the

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Rev. Buzz Taylor. And hello, good to be on again. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

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USA. And a topic like this, I could readily understand someone desiring to remain anonymous.

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In fact, if you're mentioning a specific church, well, obviously

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I wouldn't identify the church by name, and I wouldn't identify you by name either, because obviously if there's some kind of a problem in the church where you are and you're leaving or something like that,

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I wouldn't want to identify either you or the church. But I can understand many of you voluntarily wanting to remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter in regard to the topic.

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But if it is not about a personal and private matter, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Well, first of all, before we go into the theme, Pastor Bill, if you could let us know, even though you've already done this, we have new listeners joining the

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Iron Trump and Zion Radio audience every day, it seems. So why don't you tell us, our listeners, about Fellowship Presbyterian Church in Newport, Tennessee.

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Yeah, sure, be glad to. As you've already mentioned, it's a congregation of the

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Presbyterian Church in America. They were established in 1985, having come out of the

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PCUSA at that time and have been in existence ever since.

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So I would encourage my friends, those who like to vacation in the

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Gatlinburg, Sevierville, Pigeon Forge area, we're about 40 minutes from there, to attend worship on the

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Lord's Day at Fellowship. We are the only conservative Presbyterian Church in the county, in fact, in surrounding counties.

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And so that's a little bit about the church. I came to the church in August of this year,

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August 1st, as a matter of fact. I was called here to be their pastor after a man who retired after 18 years.

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So I have taken the reins, as it were, together with my elders and have been laboring here ever since.

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It's been a short period, but anyway, always a joy to serve God's people in this capacity, and it's a faithful congregation.

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And when I say faithful, I don't mean perfect, I just mean faithful. So we're plodding on in the kingdom and trying to minister this community as best we're able with the resources the

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Lord's been pleased to give to us, and so that's what we're doing, and that's what I'm doing, together with my wife.

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I can't forget my wife. I mean, she's right there next to me the whole way as we go through this.

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And I'm assuming that one of the reasons you said that is she's actually next to you right now. Well, actually, no, she's not.

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She's actually in Sevierville somewhere doing something with her cell phone. Long story, but anyway, she's been unhappy with our curtain carrier, so she's switching to something else, and I don't care.

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But she's been threatening to do that for years, and so she's finally done it. So no, she's not next to me right now, but she could walk in the door at any minute.

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She's probably listening and getting a kick out of this as we go. Well, Pigeon Ford actually sounds familiar.

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Is that the home of Dolly Parton, per chance? It is. Dollywood is the big attraction in that area.

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Gatlinburg, of course, most of your listeners, at least in the United States if they live on the East Coast especially, would be familiar with the fires that occurred last year, in fact, almost today, that destroyed a great portion of that area.

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In fact, it destroyed an area that I vacationed in while I was at the seminary. Where we stayed was wiped out by the fires, and so it's just interesting how the

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Lord and His Providence warmed us back to this area. It really wasn't on the radar, frankly.

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I didn't even know Newport, Tennessee existed on a map until I was called to come here, and I had to look it up myself to figure out where they were.

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So anyway, it's a small community, but as I mentioned, we're the only really conservative

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Presbyterian influence in the county of about 30 ,000 people, but surrounding counties as well, so there's a lot of opportunity here in this county and areas around it to minister the kingdom of Christ.

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Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Isn't that also where Gospel Music Television is, isn't it, Pigeon Forge, Tennessee?

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You're probably right, I don't know. You know, as a guy who's attuned to social media and has cable

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TV, oh no. Yeah, I probably should know that I don't, so you're probably right.

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We'll just say for the sake of argument, you're right. I like that, it's got a good ring to it, you know.

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It works, you know, for you New Yorkers, I get that, I'm a New Yorker myself, so you know, any acknowledgement that you're right, it works.

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Yeah, that seems odd that in a place like that, which I'm assuming is rural, that you wouldn't have more conservative

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Presbyterian congregations out there, that's interesting. Yeah, no, it is, in one sense, it's actually a blessing because we draw from surrounding counties, members that come to fellowship

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Presbyterian because that's it, I mean, they have no other options, and so in one sense it's a blessing, in another sense it's difficult.

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Do you mean they have no other options if they're Presbyterian? Well, that's true, you're right, I mean, yeah, right.

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There's a gazillion Baptist churches here, and I love my Baptist brothers, don't get me wrong, but I mean, but there's a lot of them in this area, but if you're a

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Presbyterian and want Presbyterian church polity and that kind of thing, we're pretty much the only option, so I kind of try to use that as the strength in my outreach to other people.

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Not that that's the core issue, the core issue, of course, is the kingdom of Christ, the gospel. Well, since Chris brought it up, though, you know, we could cut this conversation short by saying, how do you choose a church?

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Well, you get your local PCA directory out, and you look up where you are. Well, actually

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I have a sneaky suspicion that you wouldn't recommend that our listeners go to any

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PCA church that was on a directory, but anyway. You actually raised an interesting point, and in all seriousness, it's one of the questions that sometimes

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I'll receive from people because I'm a pastor and people are going to go on vacation, and they'll say, well,

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I'm going to be in this area, you know, what PCA church would you recommend, and the struggle I have as a

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PCA minister is that no two PCA churches really look alike, and so I have a hard time with,

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I don't know, and I have to Google it, do the website thing, and then give them my assessment. But yeah, you're right, it is a little bit of a challenge in that department.

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Yeah, and even myself, I don't wholeheartedly recommend every single

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Reformed Baptist Church on the planet to people, and typically the differences would be more involved on how much authority the eldership is given in the congregations and so on.

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Typically, a Reformed Baptist Church will adhere to the 1689 Confession and be fairly similar to one another in theology with some differences, but there is a difference between governmental approach as far as how much authority elders should have in the congregation.

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But that's for another story, and another opportunity. I actually know that, that's actually just what I'm going to talk about today, in all honesty.

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That's right, and we are talking about, as I will repeat now, the first hour we're going to talk about how to choose a church, and then we're going to be talking about in the second hour how to leave a church when necessary, and actually my co -host, the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor, has never even had to think about the second issue, because every time he's left the church it's been involuntarily.

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Oh boy. I'm only kidding. I'm really comic relief,

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I think. That's good, I just figured you're going to drop your resignation on the desk and take off.

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But anyway, well... Yeah, it's a tough subject. Yeah, well, obviously there are a lot of reasons people choose a church, and we're going to reign it in to a sphere of people who are really concerned about theology, because we wouldn't have time to address every issue that is a reason why people join a church, because many of them are absolutely absurd.

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Even the reasons why many evangelicals join a church is absurd, and or at least at the at what should, for what should be the lowest rung on the ladder of importance.

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But you even have people, as you may know, Bill, there are people out there who would agree with you and I very closely on theology, but still will choose a church to join because it has many programs for their kids, because they love the music, because they love the band or the orchestra, because they love the building or whatever it is.

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They will even forfeit being fed sound theology, even if a church is in reasonable driving distance to them, in favor of a church like the one

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I just mentioned. And I'm assuming that you would be very disappointed in hearing from family, friends, and loved ones if they were making a decision based on things like I just mentioned.

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Oh yeah, no question. I think at the end of the day, when

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I do new members classes and I talk to people about joining, you know, I'm looking for certain responses and all the ones you mentioned are not really the ones

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I'm hoping to hear from people. It's not that I, you know, shut those down just because they say that, but it's an opportunity to explore and teach.

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But that is primarily why people join churches, isn't it? It's the programs, it's the choir, it's the music, it's the, you know, you name it.

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We don't have time, obviously, to explore every conceivable issue. But how often do you hear a person say,

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I'm joining this church because this church has godly elders and are committed to the faithful proclamation of the

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Word of God? That is the core of why we join a church, because it is fair that the gospel proclaimed from the pulpits and they have elders in that church that are going to sustain and support the work of the preaching of God's Word.

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Take that out and what do you have? You have a nice club with a bunch of nice people that get together on Sunday and listen to nice music and go home and they're not changed, they're not edified, they're not encouraged, they're not convicted by Christ speaking through His Word and through His weak servants and need, the foolishness of preaching.

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So I would love to hear someone say to me, I'm joining this church, Bill, because we love the preaching of God's Word and you're not afraid to preach

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God's Word. And these elders are committed to the preaching of God's Word.

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I would love to hear that. Now ask me how many times I've heard that. How many times have you heard it?

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Never. Really, never? Wow, that's interesting.

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Well you said, the way you phrased it was, godly elders who are committed to the true teachings of Scripture.

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I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember exactly what you said, but I remember godly elders came out first, so let's start with that.

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I'm assuming that that would be a number one priority, that the elders are godly, and to tell you the truth,

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I would prefer, and I could see myself likely going to, and I don't have to make a decision like that now because I do have a church where I'm a member that has godly elders, but if I had a choice to make in regard to a church that was theologically identical to my beliefs, but their elders were behaving in somewhat of a nutty fashion, perhaps they were tyrannical dictators, and I knew of a church that disagreed with me on some issues, but they really truly believed and taught the gospel, and the pastors or the elders were godly men and they were faithful shepherds and they weren't missing some screws from the toolbox upstairs.

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I would prefer going to the church that is less in alignment with me theologically, but the elders were godly and faithful shepherds.

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Would you agree with that statement that I just made? Yeah, I think so in general.

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I mean, we'd have to parse that out a little bit. I mean, I'm coming from a Presbyterian context. You mentioned my wife earlier, she's about to walk in the door and she knows

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I'm doing this interview, so she's not going to pop. Right, right, she's shaking her head very respectfully and kindly, even though she's only five foot one.

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That was a joke for my dear wife, Lebo, beyond measure. But no,

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I think we'd have to parse that out a little bit. You know, I'm coming from a Presbyterian context and I think one of the things that is important for a member or somebody who's considering joining a church is whether or not they can submit to the governance of that particular church, which is represented by those elders.

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It's not just the pastor, I mean, he's the front and center guy, he's the most visible man, and all that goes with that.

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I live in that world 24 -7, but these elders are the men with the pastor who they're going to have to submit to.

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And so within a Presbyterian context, they take members, people coming to the church are going to take vows to that effect.

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They're going to say that they vow, not before men, I mean, yes, before men, but before God ultimately, that they're going to submit to the governance of this church, and that is represented by her elders, the men that apparently have been called by Christ to shepherd the flock as Christ entrusts them, entrusts this flock to them.

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And so we have to parse that out a little bit, and if these elders are not deemed godly, if they're...

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just because they're in the office doesn't necessarily mean they're godly men, I mean, let's just be honest,

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I mean, that's just the reality of life. I do have a television set, I realize that. Yeah, and so just because they have the title doesn't mean that they're actually have any concern for the sheep or anything else, but let's assume they do.

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Remember, people coming as prospective members must recognize that they're entrusting, in a sense, their souls, in some sense, to these men who are going to care for them and watch over their souls of men who are going to answer before the

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Lord for their souls, and so elders who actually understand their calling, understand the great weight and the gravity of their calling, and are going to act in a way that's consistent with what

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Christ would have them do. You know, one of the things I tell my elders all the time, and I told them to memorize this expression, this line,

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I don't know where it came from, I'm sure it's not unique with me, I doubt it's unique with me, but you know, as elders, we serve the people.

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That's our calling. We are servants. We serve them, we love them, we pray for them, we will do anything for them, but they're not our master.

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Christ is the master, and sometimes that means, as elders, we have to do things that the people might not like very much, and that's just part of the job and part of the calling, and so if a person comes to a church and they deem these men worthy, i .e.

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they're godly, they're following Christ, that's their first importance in life, they want to follow the

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Savior, and they want to submit themselves to those men, then great.

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But there are churches that people will visit or attend on a regular basis, and then realize, you know,

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I just can't submit to these men. And there may be a number of reasons why, and that's why

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I say you have to parse this out a little bit, because there are churches, Presbyterian churches, where elders who, they have the title, but when it comes right down to it, they're just glorified administrators and they're not really doing their job, and now you're going to ask this person to take vows to submit to the governance of this church when they know full well that they probably can't, and that just creates a problem.

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And so, I mean, there's a number of ways we can go with that. We could deal with the question of why are these men elders, we could deal with the question of whether they should submit or not,

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I mean, but that's why it's got to be parsed out. It can't just be a blanket statement, well, you know, these guys are elders, therefore you should just join this church.

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That can create a problem, and that's all I'm suggesting. Alright, I know that I want to ask you about questions we should specifically be asking the elders of a church before you join it, but Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question that he's itching to ask.

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Yes, I just wonder how you would define or recognize if the elders, or a particular elder, is going too far in his role of leadership, lording it over the people.

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Yeah, so, yeah, so, are they being tyrannical? Yeah, well,

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I don't know. How do I answer that? That's a tough one. Isn't it good to ask people that may live in the area who you admire, who you look up to, people of the same denominational structure or theological background?

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Yeah, I mean, I guess so, but I'm not sure I'd start.

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Obviously, in the office of elder, the tendency to be tyrannical or the temptation to be that way, to be overbearing, let's just use that word,

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I think that's probably a little better way of expressing it. Overbearing in your office is obviously always in front of you.

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I've been a ruling elder in the PCA for two and a half years before I was ordained as a teaching elder, and so I'm painfully aware of my own inadequacies and my own failures, and my own tendency to want to troll people around me and be less than patient and long -suffering and give lots of room to people, and the

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Lord in His kindness has been teaching me in my current call to exercise more patience in circumstances that I might not want to for the good of the sheep overall.

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Now, with that said, how do you identify a tyrannical elder? I don't know.

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I think it's one of those things where you just kind of know when you see it. Overbearing, over -controlling, demanding, nosy.

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Elders should be nosy, I think, to a point, but there are certain things we're not nosy about. There are certain things that we just set up our business, frankly, and again, that has to be parsed out.

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But I think it's one of those things where you just kind of know it, and as you visit a church, and I'm not suggesting that you should visit a church one day and join the following week.

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As you immerse yourself in the life of the church, you begin to realize that these men actually care for your soul the way

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Christ would care for your soul, or they don't. And, you know, are they administrators, or are they truly shepherds who are willing to guide you spiritually and bump you along as pilgrims in this world in the right direction?

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I mean, and frankly, as one who's been doing it for about five years now, bumping someone in the right direction works a whole lot better than coming down on top of them with a stick.

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People don't react very well to that. They ought to, but they don't, and so it's a whole lot better to kind of move them carefully in the right direction, kind of just do an adjustment in their course instead of hitting them over the head with a stick.

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Now, sometimes you've got to do that, but that's another subject for another time. But I think as you immerse yourself in the life of the church, you'll know,

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I think it's become self -evident that either the elders are overbearing, tyrannical lunatics, or they're men who really understand what they're there to do, have a certain self -awareness as shepherds of the flock, and they understand that Christ must have said, limit boys and girls to their care, and they're willing to treat their souls with that care.

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Maybe he didn't want anybody to go to church, but I would take that under advisement.

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Yeah, no, I'm on a cell phone, and I'm actually using Wi -Fi calling, so maybe that's part of the issue, because where I live, cell coverage is pretty non -existent.

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So, anyway, I think you can identify tyrannical elders in general by just simply being in that church for a season.

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You'll begin to sense that. You'll also sense,

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I think, in a period of time where the elders genuinely have some care. They really care, and they're not partisan in their care.

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You may be an attendee. I have those kinds of people in my church where they come every week, but they haven't joined, and I'm working my way around to asking those kinds of questions as to why you're not a member.

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But they've been coming for a long time, and they have a good sense of the eldership, and they have a good sense of that kind of thing, and I typically hear that when

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I ask them, why won't you join, or why haven't you joined? What's holding you back?

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And usually I hear, well, I'm pretty sure I can't submit to these elders.

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And then, of course, I follow up with the question of, well, why not? I mean, obviously that's a big concern for me, because maybe there's some work to do as the pastor inside of my own, inside of the session.

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For those who aren't Presbyterian, that's just the Board of Elders. But maybe I have some work to do there.

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But that's an important question. I mean, obviously you can't voluntarily submit to a bunch of lunatics.

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You want to submit to faithful shepherds. Not perfect. They got their own failings, their own struggles, indeed.

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But you want to submit to men who are going to serve, and who are going to serve you, and who are going to love you, even in all your failings, as a

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Christian, and bump you along in the right direction as you walk through your

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Christian life. Not lord it over. I think I read that somewhere, that he talks about lording it over to people.

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Just to let you know, you're fading away right now. I'm sorry. I should have called you on my home phone.

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We're going to a break right now. I don't know if you're home. You could call us back. I am home. Okay, we're going to a station break right now, so it would be best for us to hang up and you call back.

29:19

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, we already have several of you waiting, and we'll get to as many of you as we can.

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But if you want to get in line, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

29:37

Don't go away. We'll be right back. God willing, not God William, God willing with William F .L.

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and more of our discussion on why or how to choose a church and how to leave whenever necessary.

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Thriven story by contacting me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant, at 717 -254 -6433.

35:23

Again, 717 -254 -6433. Blending faith, finances, and generosity.

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That's the Thriven story. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

36:04

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

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Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

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That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.

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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And you can call cvbbs .com

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as well at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231. 800 -656 -0231.

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They are currently offering 10 % off all merchandise in the store.

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And on top of that, if you purchase $50 or more worth of merchandise, you will get absolutely free of charge the 25th anniversary edition of the book

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Theology of the Reformers by Dr. Timothy George that retails for $29 .99.

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You'll be getting that absolutely free of charge with a $50 or more purchase. And one thing that I have to complain to you folks and my listening audience about is that I have a feeling, a very strong feeling, that many of you who are ordering books from cvbbs .com

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are not mentioning that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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And that's very important that you mention this program when you are patronizing the advertisers, especially if one of the main reasons that you're patronizing my advertisers is to help keep

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Iron Sharpen's Iron on the air by keeping my advertisers happy. There has been a great turnaround for the better in sales at cvbbs .com.

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They are really happy and thanking God that they are making quite a lot of sales recently after being in a slump, but they have told me that a small minority of those customers have actually identified themselves as Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio listeners.

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So I have a feeling that that is not the case, meaning that I think that many of those people are, if not all of them, because of the providential timing of this turnaround, since we have been going on the air really pushing cvbbs .com

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very hard and announcing all these specific sales that they have, including the free

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Theology of the Reformers book by Timothy George, which is a $29 .99 value for free that you're getting with a $50 purchase, and also the 10 % discount on everything in the store.

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So please, if you are going to cvbbs .com or if you're calling them at 800 -656 -0231, please tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

39:44

Well, we are now back with our guest, William F. Hill Jr., former host of the

39:51

Confessing Our Hope podcast of the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and he's also the pastor of Fellowship Presbyterian Church, which is a

40:03

PCA congregation in Newport, Tennessee. We are discussing two themes today.

40:09

We are right now discussing how to choose a church, and during the second hour, God willing, we will discuss how to leave a church when necessary.

40:19

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

40:25

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter.

40:33

And I don't know if you heard me before the break, Pastor Bill, but I said we'll be back after these messages.

40:40

God William, and I meant to say God willing. Oh, wow. 40 and slips.

40:47

I think the Lord forgives. Well, we do have, before I go to some more questions of my own,

40:53

I'll go to some of our Iron Sherpins Iron listener audiences. Great. Audience questions, I should say.

40:59

And I have to enlarge the first one because the font is microscopic, so I have to...

41:07

It wasn't my wife, I promise. Let's see.

41:12

We have David in Ada, Ohio. And David says,

41:18

I have always the Bible example. I think he's missing a word.

41:24

I have always the Bible example of choosing a church was, I guess what he meant to say was,

41:30

I have always thought the Bible or biblical example of choosing a church was to attend in the area that you live in, i .e.

41:40

Galatians attending in Galatia instead of traveling to Corinth. Today, it seems people travel for an hour or more passing very good churches along the way to get to a church that has a better worship service, i .e.

41:56

a group of praise singers and a band. They talk about the worship service but not about the preacher's message.

42:04

Also, is it necessary for a Calvinistic Reformed Baptist to go such distances to attend a church they agree with?

42:15

What about just Christians worshiping with each other instead of dividing according to theology?

42:20

Am I of Paul or Apollos? Thanks. Well, obviously, our guest is not a

42:26

Reformed Baptist, but he's pretty close. Probably a lot closer than he cares to admit, but he's still pretty close.

42:34

In fact, even over polity, I think that you and I and Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians do have a lot in common with polity in regard to the local church polity where we part company would be

42:50

Presbyteries and denominational hierarchies outside of a local congregation because we believe in the local autonomy of the congregations.

42:59

But if you could, we did kind of touch on that already, but is it appropriate for people to be passing by all these good churches getting to a church that is not local to them?

43:14

I'm assuming the key phrase there is you're passing by good churches. Yep, yep.

43:20

Well, David, that's a great question, and frankly, it's one that's been near and dear to my heart. I have written on this,

43:27

I have talked about this, I have commented on this until I were blue in the face. I don't think anybody's listening.

43:35

Who am I? But you're absolutely right, and what grieves me, frankly, is that there's a sense in which we do that.

43:49

We'll drive an hour away, we'll drive by three churches that preach the gospel, that are faithful to the

43:59

Word, who are close but not exactly necessarily within our own polity, and you know, let's define our terms, right?

44:09

You know, polity just means practice, you know, how does the church function? To get to one that, you know, kind of rubs us the right way, strokes us in all the right places, and maybe holds to every jot and tittle that we would hope those three or four churches that we drive by would hold to, but they don't.

44:32

What bothers me when we do that is that we lose the sense in which you've already intimated.

44:39

There's the aspect of the local church that plays a huge part of our

44:45

Christian experience. Church is not just Sunday.

44:51

That's what we do. I mean, we go to worship on the Lord's Day, but the church functions and ought to function on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and if you're an hour away from the local representation of Christ's body, the church locally given, how are you to be ministered to when you're that far removed?

45:17

The complaint will come, well, you know, my elders never visit me. Yeah, well, you live an hour away. I mean, let's be honest.

45:23

I mean, they have jobs, they have families, and it must be realistic, and so I'm often concerned that people will drive by these churches not based on doctrinal reasons or even theological reasons, but simply and merely because of preference.

45:43

I like that music style better. I like that worship style better. I like the fact that they use the red hymnal, not the blue hymnal.

45:50

The carpet's red, not green, and so I'm going there. It's an hour away, and frankly, it disturbs me.

45:59

I was on vacation with my family, many years ago, and we were stuck in a situation where we didn't know what to do.

46:06

The Lord's Day came, and where are we going to church? Well, being the staunch Presbyterian guy that I am,

46:12

I opted to go to the PCUSA church locally, and that was a train wreck of epic proportion, and what a disaster.

46:17

Okay, it was a mistake. I should have not done that. I should have gone to the local Baptist church that faithfully proclaims the

46:24

Word of God and holds to the fundamental tenets of our Christian religion, and yes, there would have been issues, but I'm just visiting, and so the world wouldn't have ended, but instead

46:37

I went to this PCUSA church, and it was a train wreck, and what a disaster. So, and I suggest that we do that all the time, and we'll drive by four or five solidly

46:48

Reformed or solidly doctrinal churches for the sake of a fifth church that we like a little bit more.

46:57

It strikes us. It rubs us the right way. It's got all those preferences that we would enjoy. It doesn't have a choir.

47:03

It does have a choir. You know, pick one, and I think that's just wrong. I think, you know, we forget the reality that God in His providence has placed us in communities, and we think we chose that, oh, well,

47:16

I decided to live in this neighborhood. I decided to live in this town. I decided to take this job in this town, in this part of this state.

47:24

Yeah, well, fine. You think that's great, and you did, but in God's providence, ultimately

47:30

He has you there in those particular areas for a particular reason, and right down the street is a church that, yeah, well, maybe

47:39

He doesn't have all their I's dotted and T's crossed, and none do, but that's where the

47:46

Lord has you, and maybe you should join there instead of driving an hour away where you're not going to be ministered to, and you can't have an expectation that you're actually going to be ministered to when you're an hour away, and what you're functionally doing is just forsaking and sacrificing your family and your a lot of other things on the altar of preference, because this church an hour away does things the way you think it ought to be done.

48:15

Yeah, and it bothers me when people do that. I have members,

48:21

I have people that come to my church here in Newport, and they drive 30 minutes away to get to fellowship, but they're

48:31

Presbyterian, and they want to be in a Presbyterian context, and so I understand it, but that's not always the case, is it?

48:38

And so, yet there's a church right down the street that faithfully proclaims the Word of God.

48:43

They're not all about fluff. They're all not about show, but they're all about the kingdom of Christ, and they bypass it.

48:51

Why? So it's a naughty question. I mean, naughty as in K -N -O -T -T -Y, not naughty.

49:00

I know I'm in Newport, but naughty question.

49:07

You know, as a Presbyterian, I'm going to want to be in a Presbyterian church, and I'm probably going to drive past a few Baptist churches to get to one, sure, and that's understandable, but I'm probably not going to take my family an hour away just because there's a

49:23

Presbyterian church an hour away when there's a good Reformed Baptist church here locally that, okay, so fine, on some certain aspects of policy we're going to disagree, or, you know, baptism, or there's going to be some issues, but functionally

49:36

I'm going to be in a church that's going to minister to my soul and glorify the kingdom of Christ and advance

49:41

His kingdom, and that's where I live, and so I need it, that's where I need to be a part of, and so, yes,

49:48

I'm Presbyterian, but I'm not Presbyterian to the exclusion of the fact that there are other good churches that proclaim the kingdom of Christ in His word, and from the pulpit and otherwise, that maybe are right just right down the street, and, you know,

50:07

I told my wife one time, I said, you know, if I had no other options, if I was in a town where we had no other choices but whether to drive an hour away to a

50:17

Presbyterian church or go to the Reformed Baptist church down the street, guess where we'd be? Now, I'm as Presbyterian as you're ever going to find.

50:25

Kind of a funny story there by itself. I am Presbyterian as you're ever going to find, but I would join the

50:30

Reformed Baptist church. Why? Because I live in that community. And the people that are there are part of the community that I live in, and I'm going to be ministered to and minister to them simply because I live in the same community they do.

50:46

Yeah, sure, there'll be maybe disagreements, but are they earth -shattering? Are they enough for me to be sectarian in my approach?

50:55

I don't think so. Don't get all excited, Chris, because I know you're

51:00

Reformed Baptist and I'm Presbyterian. Don't get me wrong. I'm not beating anything.

51:06

Well, obviously, the choice is a lot easier to make, especially if you are of an age where you are pretty certain you're not going to have any more children, and the whole issue of infant baptism is not going to come up unless it comes up in a sermon, of course, but it's not going to come up as a part of your practical life if that is an issue that no longer applies directly to you.

51:31

Yeah, sure. Obviously, pragmatically, practically, that aspect obviously comes to bear, but even if I had children in that situation,

51:41

I would still enter into that situation with the understanding, and I would communicate this very clearly to the elders, yeah,

51:53

I'm just not where you guys are on this subject, I hope you understand, but you know, I don't think that's a mark of membership.

52:00

I think, you know, in the PCA, you know, we have five vows that people take, and, you know, do you love the

52:06

Lord Jesus Christ? Are you committed to living as becomes followers of Jesus Christ?

52:12

I mean, what Christian can't say or shouldn't or would be unwilling to say yes to that vow?

52:20

I mean, Baptist, Presbyterian, I don't, you know, whatever flavor you may be, that the answer should be an emphatic yes, absolutely, and so we don't, you know, we don't divide over those matters, but yes, there's differences certainly, but if all things were equal, if I had to drive past two solidly

52:43

Reformed Baptist church to get to a Presbyterian church that was an hour outside of my community, I would probably,

52:49

I'm only speaking for myself, other men may have differences of opinion on this, but I would say,

52:55

I think that's a mistake. I think it's a mistake for your family. I think it's a mistake for your soul. I think you need to realize that though you may be strongly

53:05

Presbyterian, and again, I'm probably as Presbyterian as you'll ever find, at the end of the day, it's the

53:11

Word of God being preached, it's the kingdom being advanced, aside from the fact that, you know, we may disagree over this, but we agree over a lot, and so let's work together even though we may disagree over some of these matters.

53:27

So I know that I would be not Presbyterian but that's okay.

53:35

Well, I also, in the reverse, would much more likely join a

53:43

Presbyterian church if there was not a Reformed Baptist church close by over an

53:50

Arminian Baptist church. Exactly. The Arminian is an

53:58

Arminian Baptist church situation, and when we say Arminian, we don't mean classical

54:03

Arminianism, I don't know that there's too many of those that exist, but when we say, you know, people who believe that, you know, they sidestep the sovereignty of God in election and the reality that God chooses his people as he chooses his people because we're dead sinners,

54:20

I mean, I could not in good conscience join a church like that because I'd just have great difficulty in the presentation of the gospel.

54:29

Now, with that said, if that were not the issue, yeah, I think we need to set aside our theological boundaries, if you want to use that phrase, and realize in God's providence this is where he has me, and there is no

54:45

Presbyterian church locally to me, and I'm not driving an hour away to satisfy my own theological idiosyncrasies or theological convictions just because I'm going to sacrifice so much more that the local church brings for the life of the

55:03

Christian, and that's where I am. I realize that some may disagree with me, but that's right in chrisarnson at gmail .com.

55:12

You can ask me any question you want. Well, you know, we have a first time that I can recall right now.

55:18

I just realized this after reading the question. I didn't really realize this when

55:25

I first got the email, but we have an email from the very wife you were speaking about earlier.

55:32

We have a question from Gwen Hill. I don't know her. I'm sorry, what did you say?

55:42

And no, no, she said that this is the wife who your guest was speaking about.

55:49

As Buzz said, the five foot one one. She says, I have often wondered whether it would,

55:55

I don't know if you're hearing me now, but she says, I have often wondered whether it would be helpful for members of a church who are thinking of leaving to have a sort of exit interview, which could address the concerns or conflicts of those breaking fellowship and vows of membership.

56:14

It would seem that open conversation might both show concern from the session and allow for churchgoers to share their concerns.

56:23

And then she says, yes, this is the wife of your guest today. We'll have we'll have you answer that. It's an excellent question, and we'll have you answer that when we return from our midway break, because it's we're already over the time when we should have departed to our midway break.

56:38

And if anybody wants to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

56:45

Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA. And don't please only remain anonymous if you are asking about a personal private matter.

56:55

Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. I'm tired of box store

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01:00:54

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the Pastor's Study every

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Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the

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Pastor's Study by calling Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study because everyone needs a pastor.

01:01:30

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am

01:01:36

I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

01:02:07

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:02:19

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:02:25

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

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TV program entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,

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that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

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Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise, and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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01:04:51

Welcome back. This is Chris Sarnes, and before we return to our guest, William F.

01:04:57

Hill Jr., in our discussion on how to choose a church and how to leave it when necessary.

01:05:04

Before we return to that, we have some important announcements to make in regard to special events that are coming up in the near future that are being arranged and hosted by our sponsors.

01:05:16

Well, first of all, Marcus A. McKnight III, attorney at law here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, managing shareholder of Irwin and McKnight PC.

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He's also a former elder in the church where I am a member, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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He is now a member of the West Shore Evangelical Free Church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. But he is going to be speaking on Joseph the

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Quiet Hero of Christmas on Friday, December 8th at the Comfort Suites in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania. The event begins at 1130 a .m. and ends approximately 1 p .m.

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It's an event being sponsored by CBMC, which stands for Christian Businessmen's Connection, and if you mention that you heard about this event from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you will get free admission to this event.

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It's normally a $20 admission, and it comes with lunch and fellowship and also a message by Marcus A.

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McKnight III, also known around here as Mike McKnight, but if you'd like to get into this event for free without paying that $20 admission price, just mention

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Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. The phone number to call to register is 717 -249 -2353.

01:06:44

That's 717 -249 -2353. And then, coming up this

01:06:51

January from the 17th through the 20th, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia.

01:06:59

I'm so excited about going back to Atlanta for my second visit to the G3 Conference, and I'm going to be manning an exhibitor's booth there for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, God willing.

01:07:10

The G3 Conference stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, and this January the theme will be on Knowing God, a

01:07:18

Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. The speakers at this January's G3 Conference include

01:07:26

Stephen Lawson, Bodie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .P. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

01:07:43

We have quite an interesting and probably even mix of both Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists in that roster there.

01:07:51

And the 17th of January will be exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, but from the 18th through the 20th, it will all be in the

01:08:03

English language. And if you want to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

01:08:08

and please tell them that you heard about the G3 Conference from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trap and Zion Radio.

01:08:16

Now comes the uncomfortable portion of my program where I have to beg you for money.

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I never like doing it, but it's something that needs to be done because we are in a very desperate situation financially.

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We are literally on the brink of going off the air because our finances are so horrible, to put it bluntly, these days.

01:08:40

And the advertisers that have kept Iron Trap and Zion Radio going for so long have finally convinced me to make these public appeals a number of months ago for the first time in the history of Iron Trap and Zion Radio.

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I never made public appeals on the old show coming out of New York, but the times and the financial situation are far worse than they were back then.

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And so I finally caved in and I am making these public appeals to you. If you love this program and you don't want it to go off the air, please go to irontrapandzionradio .com,

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01:09:26

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01:11:28

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line. Well, now we are back to our discussion with William F.

01:11:37

Hill Jr., who is pastor of Fellowship Presbyterian Church, which is a PCA congregation in Newport, Tennessee.

01:11:45

And as I said, we're discussing how to choose a church, and now we are entering into the phase of how to leave it when necessary.

01:11:53

And we will start off this hour with a question from our guest's wife,

01:12:03

Gwen Hill. And I will repeat the question, and it is an excellent one, and I think that our listeners should take this to heart.

01:12:13

Let's see, I have to enlarge Gwen's question too. So let me repeat our email address while I'm doing that.

01:12:20

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you have a question of your own, please only remain anonymous if it is a personal and private question.

01:12:29

Okay, here it is. I have often wondered whether it would be helpful for members of a church who are thinking of leaving to have a sort of exit interview which could address the concerns or conflicts of those breaking fellowship and vows of membership.

01:12:44

It would seem that open conversation might both show concern from the session and allow for churchgoers to share their concerns.

01:12:55

So if you have an answer to your wife's question, Pastor Bill? I have no idea.

01:13:01

It never happens that way. I say that tongue -in -cheek, but I'm somewhat serious.

01:13:13

In my limited experience as a pastor and a ruling elder, sadly, people just disappear.

01:13:25

They just stop coming. I suppose they expect the elders to figure it out, read their minds, and then chase after them.

01:13:37

And they probably should. I'm often presented with that as a pastor. You know, someone leaves the church and you don't really know the reasons.

01:13:45

Because of my concern for them, I'd like to talk with them and find out why. But at the same time, in reverse, there's a responsibility for the membership to communicate their reasons.

01:14:04

Sometimes, if that actually happens, which again, as I've said, well,

01:14:10

I've never experienced it. But if it were to happen, sure, at the end of the conversation we may just have to agree to disagree.

01:14:19

It may be substantial enough that causes one to transfer their membership somewhere else.

01:14:25

Okay, fine. You know, is it a Bible -believing church? Do they preach the gospel? You know, you're concerned for their soul.

01:14:31

You're not concerned for padding the pews and putting more people in your building. But if it's not over reasons of substance, and let's just be honest.

01:14:44

Let's just be candid. Most of the time it's not, right? It's over reasons that are preferential and sometimes trivial.

01:14:55

But even if that were the issue and you can't come to some kind of understanding, then you at least want to have the opportunity as a pastor to encourage that individual or family to at least align themselves with a church that is faithful to the gospel.

01:15:15

Now, at the same time, you maintain their membership until such time as they do that. You know, I want to caution people.

01:15:22

You don't join a church and then not join it, then unjoin a church and kind of live in this stasis between two worlds in which you're not a member of any local congregation, because that is a de facto statement of,

01:15:37

I'm not a Christian. I could see the emails now. But you have functionally excommunicated yourself from the only means of grace that Christ has given to his people, and that is the local expression, the local church.

01:15:52

And so you need to enter into this decision very, very carefully. But at least be honorable, at the very least, and candid, if necessary, with your elders and or pastor, preferably the pastor, with your concerns.

01:16:14

They may be valid. They may be concerns your own pastor carries.

01:16:20

And maybe can't share necessarily with you because he's just, he can't. You know, pastors carry a special burden sometimes where they can't share everything with everybody.

01:16:30

But at least communicate. In circumstances by which you take vows of membership, and I mean,

01:16:42

I can only speak from my context where members vow to submit to the governance of the church to maintain its purity and peace.

01:16:51

This is part of keeping your vows. Maybe the Lord wants you to move to another church that preaches the gospel, and maybe the reason isn't egregious.

01:17:00

But at least seek to maintain the peace of the church by communicating so that people aren't walking around going, you know, where's so -and -so?

01:17:08

Where's so -and -so? And no one really knows. And it's just not fair. And in case those of your listeners who are not in the ministry don't realize, whenever a member leaves the church, whether it's for legitimate reasons or otherwise, it hurts.

01:17:28

It hurts a lot. And you know, pastors may not necessarily share that with their congregation, but pastors stay up at night because people leave.

01:17:39

It's painful. And it's even more painful when they don't know why. Because they love their soul and they're trying to figure out, you know, how can

01:17:49

I minister to them? They're not worried about Padma Pugh. They're worried about ministering to their soul. And so, at least if you have a pastor that's worth his weight.

01:17:58

And so it's absolutely crucial to sit down and have that conversation.

01:18:06

And maybe at the end of it, you won't agree. And maybe at the end of it, it's okay, fine, but at least there's conversation.

01:18:14

Yeah, well, I would think that Gwen's suggestion would be excellent because, for many reasons, but one of which would be it may even prevent the person or family from departing because they may realize after the conversation that this was an oversight on the part of the elders that they are willing to rectify.

01:18:37

It might be, who knows, it could be a host of things. It could be that the very people who are leaving misunderstood something.

01:18:44

People are very paranoid, including myself at times. I can remember, especially as a new

01:18:49

Christian, I can remember sitting there in that pew and thinking to myself, this guy has like a private detective following me.

01:18:57

What's going on here? These sermons are about me. And in fact, I remember even one time,

01:19:03

I mean, it was in reality, I guess a sad circumstance, but I couldn't help but find it funny when this woman who was visiting the church got up in the middle of the sermon and said, how dare you, and stormed out of the building.

01:19:24

This was a friend of my late wife's and I ran out into the parking lot to ask the woman what was going on and she swore that my pastor somehow found out personal information about her and was bringing it up in the service.

01:19:38

My pastor later told me that he never had met this woman before in his life and he didn't even know who she was. But it shows you how the

01:19:45

Holy Spirit can minister to people providentially like that. But that's just an example of people can be very often under misunderstandings because they never speak as the principles set forth to us in Matthew when you have either a problem against your brother or your brother has a problem with you.

01:20:02

We're supposed to be speaking to these people one -on -one first, and if you don't get anywhere, you take it to the church.

01:20:09

But lack of communication can draw people to all kinds of erroneous conclusions.

01:20:14

Yep. When I came out of the business world before I went to seminary and, you know, one of my favorite lines was, you know, it's funny, you're talking about the pastor preaching.

01:20:34

I mean, I've heard that from people. Well, you were riding around in my car all week long and I'm like, no, but I know somebody who was.

01:20:44

Well, of course, you meant the Lord, the omniscient Holy Spirit. You know, I may not have known about it, but then again, maybe

01:20:52

I did. And, you know, when I preach, I'm preaching to a group of people that I'm shepherding and caring for and praying for, and I know their lives.

01:21:02

I know where they are. I know what troubles them. I know what doesn't trouble them. I know the sins they're involved in.

01:21:09

I know the thing. Of course, I apply those things to those people in that room. I mean, I'm not preaching to the people that aren't there, and sometimes

01:21:17

I actually had one guy ask me one time in my study when he took my head off. He said, you were talking about me.

01:21:26

And I said, well, yes. I mean, who was

01:21:33

I preaching to? I mean, yeah, of course I was talking about you. You were in the room, and I know your life, and you were...

01:21:40

yeah, of course I was. I wasn't only talking about you, but, you know, people have this warped understanding of what preaching actually is anyway, and they think, you know, preachers should get up there and do what they do and really not address anything that has anything to do with their home, their family, their lives, their marriages, or whatever.

01:21:57

It's everybody else, but it's not them. But be that as it may, I mean, that's a different subject for another day.

01:22:04

But, you know, I think the greatest frustration any pastor, and I think any minister who's listening to this, either right now or in the recording later on, will admit that the greatest frustration they have when people leave is they have absolutely...

01:22:23

usually they have absolutely no idea why. None. And it may be a legitimate reason.

01:22:30

It may be something that the pastor can't do anything about. It might be absolutely 100 % legitimate insofar as it goes, but they don't know the reason, and so they sit around, lay awake at night going, why did so -and -so leave?

01:22:45

Now, I would quickly hasten to say, well, if you don't know, why don't you pick up a phone and call them and find out?

01:22:50

I mean, you know, you are the shepherd, so pursue. But with that said, members do have a responsibility to communicate, and I think it's sad to see people just depart and the pastors left going,

01:23:04

I don't get it. You know, was it me? Was it the church? Was it something elders did or didn't do?

01:23:11

Most of the time it's preference. Most of the time it's, well,

01:23:17

I don't like choirs and you guys have choirs, so I'm out of here. Or I want a red hymnal and you have a blue one, or the carpet's a different color than I prefer, or you know, you don't pick something.

01:23:28

You know, it's a preferential reason. It's not a doctrinal reason which leads to the question and answer of, well, when should you leave?

01:23:38

You know, but before we get to that, I think that we should at least go through some of the questions that people should ask when they are considering joining a church.

01:23:48

Sure. Because I think that that would be very wise for people to ask questions, and obviously, unless the person already knows this, wouldn't you say the first thing that you would ask is, what confession or creed does your church hold to, or what is your church's statement of faith?

01:24:07

And if you could pick it up from there. Yeah, sure. Well, you know, obviously I'm going to talk from a prostrating context, but I think this will apply even outside of a prostrating context.

01:24:17

You know, I love having a confession of faith because it tells me what I can and can't do, and it doesn't allow one man to become dictator of biblical interpretation.

01:24:28

I mean, you know, I'm the pastor of a church, but I'm not the king. You know, I obviously have been schooled, trained in theology, but I have elders

01:24:36

I have to function within, and my job is to teach and train them and listen to them and submit to them, even when

01:24:43

I don't agree with them. Sometimes I don't agree with them. I mean, sometimes we radically, I mean, there's a radical disagreement, but I think a member first needs to ask themselves, okay, is this man preaching the

01:24:57

Word of God? Is he up there giving his own opinions as to what the Word of God says?

01:25:02

Is he up there sharing his own experiences and stories of epic proportion, or is he preaching expositionally through the

01:25:10

Scriptures, thus sayeth the Lord? Now, if he's doing that, is that the end of it?

01:25:16

No, but that's a great place to start, because, you know, obviously, if the man doesn't preach the

01:25:21

Word of God, he's up there, you know, engaged in self -aggrandizement and concerned with his own glory and not concerned with the glory of Christ and isn't like John the

01:25:31

Baptist, Christ must increase, I must decrease, and disappear into the woodwork while the Word of God is being proclaimed.

01:25:38

Fine, yeah, I would encourage you to run out of that place twice. Get out, because there's no place for that.

01:25:45

You don't need that in your life. But if that's happening, I mean, if the man is faithful to the

01:25:50

Word of God, obviously, coming from a Presbyterian context, you know,

01:25:56

I would examine their confessional statement, you know, where, what does this church believe?

01:26:02

You know, and I mean, if a church can't subscribe to the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, they're probably not a church anyway,

01:26:09

I mean, you can start there, but I think it goes beyond that. In Presbyterian circles, in the

01:26:14

PCA, we have a confession of faith, the larger and shorter catechisms, the Westminster Confession of Faith, that's what elders are vowed to uphold and are committed to, and that system of doctrine, don't get me started on that subject, that system of doctrine that they all agree expresses in summary fashion what the

01:26:35

Word of God teaches. Now, if you're in agreement with that, you can submit to that reality that those elders are going to uphold that, you're not going to be required as a member to uphold it, but they are, and you can submit to that reality, then what stops you from joining?

01:26:52

Oh, they have a choir, okay, I don't like choirs either, just FYI, I'm not a big fan, but it's not a red line.

01:27:00

There's red lines in my ministry that I will never cross, and if I have to cross them, I'll quit, but that's not a red line, a choir.

01:27:10

Well, I guess it depends on how strongly you hold to the regulative principles. Some people might really be incapable of worshiping in a place where if they felt that strongly about—

01:27:20

If their conscience won't let them, then don't join. Right, exactly. I think it's as simple as that.

01:27:27

If your conscience is so bound to that reality, and I can't dictate your conscience, obviously, but if I had a potential member in front of me that says, you know,

01:27:36

I really can't join because you have a choir, I mean, I'd try to teach them and talk to them about that, but if at the end of the day they just couldn't join because of that issue,

01:27:46

I certainly can't make them do it, and so I'd probably encourage them to go somewhere else, because we have a choir.

01:27:55

I may not like it, they might find that out when they talk to me, but the fact is my elders want it, and so I have to submit to that reality.

01:28:03

I don't think they're in sin, necessarily, because they do it. I do hold to the regulative principle, probably as strong as the next guy, probably stronger, but so, you know, there's a bunch of things you have to evaluate, but at the end of the day, you've got to ask yourself one simple question.

01:28:20

Am I able, before the Lord, to submit to the governance of this church?

01:28:27

That means I'm able to submit to the elders. Am I able to submit to the fact that Christ and His providence has put these men in this office, in this church, to shepherd my soul?

01:28:39

If I'm able to say yes to that, aside from some preferences that I might like or not like, then you should join it.

01:28:46

What's stopping you? Oh, they, you know, carpet's blue, and well, get over it, okay?

01:28:53

You'll live. I guarantee you won't die over a blue carpet. You know, I realize that that's a stupid example, but frankly, that's what happens.

01:29:05

People come to a church and they're looking for, there's no program for my little kids. There's no program for my teenagers.

01:29:12

There's no youth group. There's no supper for six. I'm just naming a bunch of things that I've actually heard, but there's no this.

01:29:20

There's no that, and so therefore I can't join. Why? The Word of God is proclaimed. The elders are faithful to the

01:29:26

Word. They're consistent with their confessional standards. They love the kingdom of Christ. They love your soul.

01:29:31

Why can't you join? What's stopping you? Well, they don't have a youth group.

01:29:37

Okay, uh, wow. Okay, that's not a determinative factor for joining the church.

01:29:46

I mean, I can't find a youth group in the New Testament. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have one. Different subject for another day.

01:29:55

The point I'm making is that that's not determinative of whether I should submit to a local church represented by elders who love the kingdom of God and are committed to the gospel and a pastor who's willing to preach faithfully the

01:30:13

Word of God. Yeah, show me a perfect church that you can join, and then

01:30:18

I would suggest you don't join it, and my reason for that is because as soon as you do, it's imperfect, right?

01:30:26

I mean, that's old. I didn't make that up. Everybody says that stuff. But I'm going to ask a question and have you answer it when we return, and we're going to go to a break.

01:30:37

You make me think about this during the break. I like that. And we're going to go to our final break, which is going to be a short break, or shorter at least, and I'm also going to forward you a question.

01:30:51

In fact, I think I did already. I did already have it right in front of me. Yeah, Joe from Slovenia sent a question that was rather long, so I thought

01:30:58

I'd give you a chance to look that over. But my question, if you think this would be a wise question to ask before joining a church, which is probably some question that hardly anybody has ever asked, my question would be, does your church practice discipline?

01:31:18

And if so, when was the last time you did it? And if so, without being overly detailed, were you violating confidence and so on, can you tell me why that occurred?

01:31:32

And if you could answer that, whether or not you think that's a valid or good question or wise question when we return from the break.

01:31:41

And if anybody else wants to join us, this is the time for you to get in line and ask your question before we run out of time. ChrisArnson at gmail .com,

01:31:48

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:35:19

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01:36:30

Iron Sharpens today. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnsen, this is the last 23 minutes or so of our interview today, went by like a bullet as I knew it would, and our guest has been and will continue to be

01:36:43

William F Hill Jr., the pastor of Fellowship Presbyterian Church in Newport, Tennessee.

01:36:48

We are discussing how to choose a church and how to leave it when necessary, and now is your time to send in your email or forever hold your peace.

01:36:57

Our email is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com if you have a question for our guest regarding the topic, and give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence, and if you have to remain anonymous, please only do so if it's about a personal and private matter.

01:37:12

And before the break, before we go to Joe and Slovenia's question, before the break I ask you, do you think it's a good question to ask when looking for a church to join?

01:37:22

Do you practice church discipline? If so, when was the last time you did it, and why'd you do it?

01:37:30

Yes, church discipline is absolutely necessary.

01:37:36

It's one of the marks of the Church. You know, it was Calvin who argued that the two marks of the

01:37:42

Church is Word and Sacraments, but I think wrapped up in his answer to that question.

01:37:50

Discipline of members falls under the authority of the

01:37:55

Word. Without the Scriptures, discipline is...there's...you

01:38:01

can't do discipline. Elders can't discipline members without the authority of the Word. We'd only gain our authority as elders from the

01:38:07

Word, and when we get outside the Word we're not exercising any authority anymore, at least from Christ's point of view.

01:38:15

I had a professor at Greenville Seminary who beat into our heads that our responsibility as ministers is ministerial and declarative.

01:38:25

You know, we're not legislative, but that's been given to us already. So yes, we practice church discipline.

01:38:31

It's a necessary mark of the Church. We do so...this is really a subject for another, probably another interview.

01:38:38

I've got all kinds of topics going through my head now for future interviews, but we practice church discipline not because we love beating up the sheep and beating them over a head with their sin.

01:38:53

We all sin daily in thought, word, and deed. But when you find a member who's professed faith in Christ and has joined the

01:39:00

Church and has submitted themselves to the authority of the elders, who are living in ways that is outside or in contravention to that profession of faith, we discipline them.

01:39:14

We first admonish them. We plead with them to turn from that sin, and if they refuse and they persist in that rebellion, then we suspend them from the sacraments.

01:39:25

And again, building into that process the opportunity for pastoral involvement, to bring them back to where they say they are.

01:39:35

They say they're Christians, and we treat them as such, even through this part of the process. But sometimes, sadly, elders have to excommunicate people, and we don't like to do it.

01:39:47

I lose sleep over it, frankly. It's hard, but it's necessary for their soul, and it works.

01:39:56

And it works because discipline is designed to protect the glory of Christ's name, first and foremost, and that's why we do it.

01:40:06

Second, we do it to preserve the peace and purity of the Church. The third reason we do it is to reclaim the unrepentant sinner.

01:40:14

I mean, they overlap, indeed, but that's the goal. So if a person came to me and wanted to join the

01:40:22

Church and asked me, you know, do you guys practice Church discipline? The emphatic answer is absolutely without discussion. No question.

01:40:30

Carefully, properly, biblically, Matthew 18, Galatians 6, all those texts in view.

01:40:39

We never rush to it. Maybe I shouldn't, well, I don't think this is a problem.

01:40:46

I had a man who was an elder who served with me, not in this particular church that I'm in now, but another church who was really quick, you know, he was quick to just want to drop the hammer and just do this discipline excommunication thing.

01:41:02

And I had to caution him, you know, brother, we are never in a hurry to excommunicate somebody, but we will get there if they make us get there.

01:41:12

But we don't want to do it. It's horrible, but it's necessary for the good of the

01:41:18

Church and for the peace and purity of the Church. And so yes, I would say if someone asked me that question, you know, without discussion.

01:41:25

Yeah, I think that not only will you get a handle on whether or not this church that you're considering to join, considering joining, whether or not they even believe in it, they may be a moderate to liberal, modernist kind of evangelical church that doesn't even believe in church discipline, or they could be the reverse.

01:41:50

They could be an authoritarian, heavy -handed church that perhaps has disciplined someone because they bought a car without getting the permission of the elders.

01:42:05

You know, there are churches out there that have such a harsh and extreme form of authoritarian eldership that if you got to go to the elders for practically any decision you make, and it really emasculates the husband in his own home if he has to run to the pastors for permission all the time.

01:42:23

But I think, and also, I think it's just a wise decision to know why they may even wind up putting you under discipline if you don't know that beforehand.

01:42:35

I want to let everybody, and I'm not going to take a long time to do this, because they can go to an interview

01:42:40

I did in the past by typing in Grimaldi, G -R -I -M -A -L -D -I, that's my former pastor's name,

01:42:50

Mark Grimaldi. I interviewed my former pastor, my most recent former pastor, on church discipline because he and my elders disciplined me.

01:43:01

I was under church discipline at one point for scandalously addictive behavior or abuse of alcohol.

01:43:11

I was a drunkard, seriously dangerous drunkard as to the level of alcohol

01:43:17

I was consuming, and if they did not put me under church discipline, I may not be alive today with air in my lungs and a beating heart to be doing this program.

01:43:27

And by the way, just to confirm and to let you know, I was restored to full fellowship after repentance and after going to a ministry in Boone, North Carolina, Hebron Colony Ministries, which is a drug and alcohol rehabilitation ministry.

01:43:45

So I just want to let our listeners know that being under church discipline is not the end of life for you.

01:43:51

If you obey what the Lord has to say in the scriptures and you go along with the discipline and you repent and so on, it doesn't need to be the end of the road for you.

01:44:01

Yeah, and let me just quickly say that when that happens, if you belong to Christ, Hebrews 12, right, when this happens through the ordinary means of grace, that means the elders who are shepherds for your soul,

01:44:22

Hebrews 13, are going to give an account for your soul, when they do it in all the right ways, okay, imperfectly indeed, but not necessarily lacking in truth, when they do it all in the right ways and you actually belong to Christ, He will restore you.

01:44:41

He's not going to let go of you. He's not going to just say, oh, that's it, you pagan scumbag, you're out of here.

01:44:47

No! I mean, if you belong to Him, He's going to bring you to a place where you're going to bow the knee and say,

01:44:54

I was wrong and I sinned against God and His Word, and I'm so thankful for men who cared enough about me to tell me that.

01:45:02

Now, with that said, there are people that come out of church discipline that never return.

01:45:09

Well, what does that mean? You know, what does John tell us? They left us because why? They weren't part of us in the first place.

01:45:15

You know, Christ has a way of purging His church from the sheep and the goats, and it's not my job to necessarily do that individually or ascertain that.

01:45:25

I may have suspicion, but in the Lord's providence, He works that out. You know,

01:45:30

Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 7, you know, the man who was sleeping with his father's wife, I mean, good grief.

01:45:36

I mean, he didn't hesitate. You know, get that man out of your midst. I mean, turn him over to Satan. And so, church discipline, look, church discipline is not evil, and it's not the worst thing that could ever happen to you.

01:45:49

As long as you're still breathing and you're under church discipline, you always have the opportunity to repent. It's very important, though, that you heed that instruction from your elders insofar as they're faithful, and listen to what they're telling you, because they hold the key to the kingdom.

01:46:07

And it's a serious issue. This is not a joke. This is not something that we do because we're a church.

01:46:14

This is... your soul is in jeopardy. And when duly qualified elders called by Christ follow the process the way

01:46:22

Christ has laid it down and do it with fear and trembling, frankly, they're pleading with you because they care about your soul.

01:46:30

At the end of the day, that's the issue. And so, you know, it works. Church discipline always accomplishes

01:46:38

God's purposes. It never fails, not one time. It always maintains the purity of Christ's name.

01:46:44

It always maintains the purity of Christ's church. And it sometimes brings his child to repentance.

01:46:53

I know of cases where people under discipline, after years, were restored to the church because they realized what they had done was so grievous.

01:47:02

And it works. I know people who never come back. Does that mean it failed?

01:47:09

No. It worked. It purged the church of the goat. And so, anyway,

01:47:17

I think it's important to be in a church. Obviously, they practice church discipline. They're not a church without it.

01:47:22

When I came to my current call, one of the questions I asked the elders before I accepted was, has there been any conflict or church discipline in the church in the last five years?

01:47:35

Now, I asked that question on purpose because I wanted to know that these men were willing to do something that none of us want to do.

01:47:45

It's hard, but it's important. And, of course, you could have a situation where the elders say, well, to be perfectly honest, there's only 20 members in our church, and God just providentially brought us faithful, godly people, and we haven't had the opportunity or the reason that warranted it yet.

01:48:04

So, I mean, that would be an honest and legitimate answer. I think, you know, I mean, yeah, sure. I mean, it's possible.

01:48:10

I've never been in a church, small, big, or otherwise, that doesn't have conflicts. You put a bunch of people in centers in a room, you're going to have problems.

01:48:21

You know, sure, that's possible. And I think, also, you have to realize that if you do ask that question, the answer the pastor is going to give, hopefully, the answer

01:48:31

I would give is, yes, we practice church discipline. If you ask me for specifics,

01:48:38

I'm not telling you. It's none of your business. I mean, at the end of the day, it really isn't, right?

01:48:43

I mean, I have to safeguard the well -being of my brothers and sisters that may be under -disciplined, and so I'm just not going to—I'm not at liberty to talk about that, but yes, we do practice it.

01:48:55

Next question. All right, let's actually go to the next question before we run out of time. Joe in Slovenia—and, of course, we're going to have to adjust this.

01:49:04

You're going to have to adjust it to a Presbyterian answer, but he says, Dear Brothers Chris and William, some have argued that the

01:49:11

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith is too detailed for a whole congregation to affirm.

01:49:18

They suggest having different levels of subscription to the confession, the first level being that all who have a credible profession of faith expressed in believers' baptism meet the minimum requirement for church membership.

01:49:31

Faith in Christ together with a teachable spirit of unity in Christ is all that is required for church membership.

01:49:37

The second level would be full subscription for officers, elders, deacons, meaning that they affirm and teach every doctrine in the church's confession of faith.

01:49:46

If a church doesn't already practice these two levels of subscription and one wanted to join, but couldn't in good conscious—but couldn't in good conscious—conscience totally affirm all the articles fully, would it be appropriate to ask for membership at the first level?

01:50:05

Is this an acceptable way to find and join a confessional church? Well, obviously, it doesn't really matter if he's talking about the

01:50:12

Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. No, it doesn't. The Westminster Confession. The answer to the question, in short, is yes.

01:50:19

Let me tell you how we do it in the PCA. I think this is the right way to do it.

01:50:25

We don't ever want to require membership in the church greater than that which the

01:50:31

Lord Jesus Christ would accept or require. And I think, you know, the

01:50:36

PCA's got its problems, you know, that's not a newsflash to people who are paying attention to what's going on in our denomination.

01:50:44

But I think on this point, I think we're good. I think we're—we ask the right questions and we're faithful to what

01:50:55

I think Christ would require of us. And so we ask five questions, and those five questions get to the heart of the reality is, is this person a follower of Jesus Christ?

01:51:07

Is he committed to following Jesus Christ? Is he willing to submit to the governance of the church, that is, the elders?

01:51:14

Is he willing to live as a follower of Jesus Christ? I mean, that's the essence of those vows.

01:51:21

Now, with that said, I have members in my church right now that I pastor that are

01:51:28

Baptists. They're not only Baptists, they're Arminian. I mean, they are not in agreement with predestination,

01:51:38

Calvinism, whatever it may be, but they're faithful members of the church and I love them to death.

01:51:46

But they can never, ever be officers. Now, why?

01:51:52

Because the officers, as is alluded to in this question—I mean, I don't think it's alluded to,

01:51:58

I think it's explicit—the officers are required to uphold the confessional statements or documents of that particular church.

01:52:10

And why? Why do elders have to hold to a higher standard doctrinally than the members?

01:52:18

Well, because the elders have a responsibility to teach and train the congregation.

01:52:26

And so we need to be on the same page. We need to have an objective standard that tells us what is and what isn't faithful interpretation of the

01:52:35

Bible. Otherwise, we have chaos in the church. Well, that's just your interpretation, that's not my interpretation.

01:52:43

Fine, the elders can't say that to each other, because we all have the same interpretation, right? It's all articulated in our confessional statements.

01:52:51

Members can say that, that's fine, as long as they're willing to submit to the governance of the church, and they're willing to maintain its purity and peace, and they're living as followers of Christ, and they're willing to listen and learn from those men that they've submitted to.

01:53:08

That's it. It's that simple. Amen. Yeah, when I became a member of Calvary Baptist Church in Amityville, Long Island, New York, where I was baptized—

01:53:19

Amityville? That's right, that's where I was born and raised. I went and saw that house, by the way,

01:53:25

I just want to point that out. Yeah, well, I used to pass that house nearly every week of my life. I think they took those creepy windows out, though.

01:53:31

Yes, they did, because it was such an obviously visible connection. It was.

01:53:37

But the Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, which no longer exists because it merged into what is now

01:53:45

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island, but this is the first evangelical church, having been raised

01:53:53

Roman Catholic, that I ever joined, and I did not believe in Calvinism at the time

01:53:58

I was seeking membership, and they told me, as long as you submit to the fact that that is what the elders here believe, and you cannot or should not or must not undermine or attempt to undermine that authority, we will welcome you with open arms.

01:54:13

And within months, within about two months, the Lord opened up my eyes to those things. Let me ask our final question of the day that we have time for.

01:54:22

Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama asks, what is your guest's opinion of church covenant agreements which members are required to sign?

01:54:31

There have been many interesting stories in recent years concerning congregations that refuse to let certain members resign.

01:54:37

In one case, a member of the pastoral staff readily admitted that the leadership team intended to chase down a certain former member, rejecting that member's resignation, only so they could turn around and kick that member out of the congregation.

01:54:52

In many cases, the language of the church covenant appears calculated to protect the church from errant members, but not so much to protect the church member from the church leadership.

01:55:04

If you could comment, and this is the last question we have time for. Yeah, if you mean by church covenant, church vows,

01:55:12

I mean obviously I wholeheartedly think that members should take vows before the congregation, but more importantly before God, as to their willingness to abide by these things.

01:55:23

They have the option to not do that, and they can just buy, you know, be attenders, whatever.

01:55:28

I wouldn't recommend that, but if the purpose of the vows is to be a battering ram against people who are, you know, going to leave or then turn around and make a mockery of them and embarrass them in some capacity, that's not the purpose of the vows.

01:55:49

So that, to me, is just a tyrannical way of leading that doesn't help anybody.

01:55:55

It only props up your own ego, I guess.

01:56:00

I don't know why people would—I'm sure it happens. I guess I've heard of it before.

01:56:06

Well, I guess someone might want to escape discipline, and they say, guess what guys,

01:56:13

I know that you want to put me under discipline for being an unrepentant alcoholic, but I'm gone. I quit.

01:56:19

Yeah, that's the beauty of Presbyterianism, faithfully followed. Members don't have that luxury, so to speak.

01:56:30

It's not a luxury, really. They're just trying to run away. Right. If someone came to me tonight and said,

01:56:38

I'm leaving the church, I'm no longer a member of Fellowship Presbyterian Church, my response to them would be, okay, so where are you going?

01:56:47

Well, I'm not going anywhere right now. I haven't figured that out. I said, so then my response would be, so whether you like it or not, you're still a member of this church.

01:56:57

That's just a fact, and there's no way to avoid it. And that means that, obviously,

01:57:03

I still have responsibility for you spiritually, and I'm going to operate under that rubric until such time as you transfer your membership to another branch of Christ Church, period.

01:57:15

Now, if I have a member who is under discipline or process of discipline that tries to pull that, oh,

01:57:21

I'm going to leave and go somewhere else, our rules protect us from that reality, and they just can't do that.

01:57:29

So we're able to follow through with the reality that the discipline is in process and maybe hasn't reached its full extent yet, but that member needs to understand that you just don't disappear from the church and kind of go into this stasis place of non -membership anywhere until such time as you land somewhere else.

01:57:50

It doesn't work that way, and it ought not work that way for anybody. It is absolutely vital, if not absolutely commanded, by Scripture that you join with a local expression of Christ Church, Reformed Baptist, Baptist, I don't care, as long as they're faithfully preaching the gospel and they're they're administering church discipline, they're administering the sacraments, you should be a member of that church wholeheartedly.

01:58:20

To not do so makes a statement that you're... maybe you don't...

01:58:26

you're not a Christian. You know, what it was Calvin said, you know, okay, Calvin's not infallible,

01:58:32

I realize, but I think on this point he's right. You cannot have God as your father without the church as your mother, and Christ gave us the church.

01:58:43

We must join it. We must be a member. We must maintain our membership throughout our

01:58:51

Christian lives, and to not do so is to say something to Jesus, and that is, you really didn't know what you were doing when you established a church that was represented by elders who love your soul and care about you, and I know lots of people who won't join churches.

01:59:12

It's not commanded in the Bible. Well, I differ. You can't submit to your authorities if you're not a member of a church, so it makes no sense.

01:59:21

The Bible is explicit about that, but we are out of time, and I knew that we would fly by in time before we finished what we wanted to say, but that's the way it typically is on Iron Trip and Zion, and I know that your website is fellowship -pca .org.

01:59:41

Thank you so much, Pastor Bill. We look forward to your return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater