Episode 13: Reformation or Deformation?

The Rural Church Podcast. Two point up. Just a couple of pastors discussing life, ministry, theology, and the gospel from a local church perspective. Eddie, what's it time for?

The Rural Church Podcast.

Reformation Week and the Mike Law Letter on Pastors in the SBC

The Rural Church Podcast. I've lost track of episodes, and I'm sorry, but I'm Allen Nelson, your co-host, pastor, Perryville Second Baptist Church. With me is my co-labor in the gospel, my friend, fellow pastor from Marshall, Eddie Ragsdale.

Say hello, Eddie.

Hello, Quatro, and man, it is beautiful today. We're finally out of a burn ban here in Searcy County. Damien County's out of a burn ban. Do you guys get some rain in Perryville?

Yeah, we got some rain. I assume, I don't know how much rain you have to get to get out of a burn ban, but we got a lot, so I assume we're out of, I haven't heard, I assume we're out of a burn ban too.

What episode is this, Eddie? Is it 13?

I have no idea. The scenario is that we have had so many episodes with guests that got turned into two episodes that I really lost count.

It's Reformation Week. This probably will release on November the 2nd. It's Reformation Week. What we want to talk about a little bit, in a way, I didn't put it to you this way, Eddie. We want to talk about de-Reformation.

Is that how you say it? Maybe just de-Formation.

De-Formation. Yeah, that's probably more accurate.

And we want to talk about Reformation in the local church, and then we also want to talk about, we want to talk about this letter. Introduce that subject, this letter about pastors in the SBC.

Yeah, I actually first seen it. I think you had shared it, and then I went and read it yesterday afternoon, and it's a pastor, it's a letter that has been written referring to a, I guess it's a motion to amend the Constitution.

Is that right? You were at Anaheim, but it seemed like it was a motion to amend the Constitution to add language, which should already be clear because of what's stated in the Baptist faith message that pastors ought to be men.

So the background, before we get to the letter, the background is that in Anaheim, actually it goes back further than that. The background is that in Nashville, there was a motion to disfellowship from Saddleback.

And the reason we were going to disfellowship from Saddleback is because they were ordaining women as pastors. Then we get to Anaheim and they say, well, we need to form, so Baptist, right? We need to form a study committee on what is a pastor.

And then things just kind of ascended into chaos from there. We don't know what a pastor is. So let me read the letter real quick. It says, well, by the way, total signers to date, 646. A call to keep our unity.

Dear SPC Executive Committee, my name is Mike Law, and I have the privilege of serving as a pastor of Arlington Baptist Church in Arlington, Virginia. Thank you for your labors and serving Christ and Southern Baptists around the world.

All right. Concerning my motion to amend the SPC Constitution to include an enumerated sixth item under Article III, Paragraph 1 concerning composition. As offered and referred to you at this past June's annual meeting, the enumerated sixth item would read, six, does not affirm, appoint, or employ a woman as pastor of any kind.

Now, I will not read the whole letter because it's so long, but the idea is you cannot be a, the proposal is that you cannot be a church in friendly cooperation with the Southern Baptist Convention if this were to pass, if you affirm, appoint, or employ a woman as pastor of any kind.

Which should simply already be the case.

It should already be the case, right?

This isn't even introducing anything really new. It's just, unfortunately, we have to define what everybody should already know.

It's not even controversial. I mean, like it shouldn't even be controversial. Here's what's controversial, Eddie. We want to take, we want to take words like pastor, and we want to morph them into whatever we want them to mean.

That's right.

Well, by the way, in the New Testament, the least term obviously used for an elder or overseer is pastor, but it is used.

And I was really thankful for the, in the letter, how that the brother went about even explaining a biblical, and I would say, our Baptist understanding of the uses of terms like elder, overseer, and pastor from the New Testament perspective, because I do think even in a lot of our churches, we're so traditional that we don't have a biblical understanding of these terms.

And that's something we've been dealing with in my own church, is really trying to help people have a biblical understanding of how that the New Testament uses those terms, elder, overseer, and pastor, all to refer to those who give spiritual leadership to the local church in preaching and teaching.

There should be zero controversy about that.

Right. No controversy.

The only reason there is controversy is because churches have allowed themselves to get into this weird kind of mess when it comes to assigning people as pastors that aren't pastors. Let me just say this.

This is from the letter. Read this paragraph. He says, biblically, only men qualified according to scripture, see 1 Timothy 3, 1 -7, Titus 1, 5 -9, may hold the office of elder, presbyterus, Titus 1 -5, or overseer, episcopus, episkopos, 1 Timothy 3, 1 -2, Titus 1 -7.

These are terms synonymous with pastor. Indeed, the title pastor, poiemon, used by Paul in Ephesians 4 -11 is used to speak of pastors and teachers, or pastor teacher. Paul does not leave us guessing as to how the household of God should be ordered, 1 Timothy 3 -15.

He identifies the teachers of God's church as qualified men, 1 Timothy 3 -2, cross-referenced Titus 1 -6. So, first of all, biblically, this is clear. It's not even controversial, but even as Southern Baptists, this is clear.

We say that the title of pastor, the office of pastor, is reserved only for men as qualified by scripture. So, the only reason this is an issue in churches today is because churches have taken biblical wording and decided to make mincemeat of it and apply it however they want.

By the way, not just with women, Eddie, but even with unqualified men.

That's right.

So, it's not just like a, this isn't just like a gender thing. This is also a, this is, at the end of the day, this is a biblical thing, and we're talking about churches assigning pastors, assigning the title of pastor to people who are not qualified to be pastor, whether it's unqualified men or women.

And I think a part of the issue is that our churches are, they're simply operating in ways that the New Testament would have knew nothing of. Meaning, we're giving titles to people who simply aren't pastors at all, and we're making up positions that didn't exist in the New Testament church.

Pastors over certain parts of the church, instead of simply saying, all of the elders are responsible for all of the church. And I do think that differing elders, because of differing gifts, may have, may work with, you know, different subset of people within the church at certain times.

But all of the elders, all of the pastors in the local church are responsible for all of the ministry in the local church. Not simply, and I mean, I don't want to be vague, not simply worship pastors dealing with the music, or youth pastors dealing with the teenagers.

We're talking about pastors are there to shepherd the whole church.

The Church, the Gospel, and the Meaning of Pastoral Leadership

So let's get real. The reason that we don't understand what pastors are, and yes, we're talking specifically about the Southern Baptist Convention right now, but we could broaden this to even quote unquote, conservative evangelicalism.

The reason we don't know what a pastor is, is because we don't really understand what the church is.

That's right.

That's our problem. And even more foundational than that, and I'm not calling all these people not Christians, but the reason we don't know what the church is, is because we don't understand the full purpose and extent of the gospel.

And the reason we don't understand the fullness of the gospel and the purpose of the gospel is because we don't understand God. So there's all this going on. Again, I'm not saying everybody who disagrees about what a pastor is, is not a Christian, but I'm just saying this is all the things that we have going on into this.

We don't understand the pastorate fundamentally because we don't understand the church.

Yeah, and I think when it comes to even the SPC, a part of the issue is if we're just going to get rid of all these distinctives, then really we could just have a nondescript evangelical association by which we all poured our money into the same pool for evangelism, for missions, and for theological education, I suppose.

If what we're going to say is this doesn't matter, well, then what's the difference between us and the assembly church down the road, or us and whatever other group? Because essentially at that point we're saying that, well, we don't want any of these doctrines that would define us as separated from anyone else.

Well, then we're not really Southern Baptists. Why do we even mess with that now?

You say that like it's an extreme, but there's already an organization doing those sorts of things. It's called the North American Mission Board. So you say like, yeah, well, we could just, but it's like, that's already going on, you know?

And it's like the, he gets us and all that. Like, yeah, we try to act like it's not going, but it is. And the problem is, from my perspective, when you talk about the SBC is, how am I going to partner with churches when we don't agree on what the church is?

Again, it's not just we don't agree on what pastors are, it's we don't agree on what pastors are because we don't have the same understanding of the church. So how can we partner in good conscience with other, if we're going to be out here, sure you say evangelism.

Evangelism in the New Testament always results in what? Local churches. That's right. So you say like, well, you just give money towards evangelism, or you give money towards disaster relief, or you give money towards these things.

You think, okay, but the church has to flow out of these things. And if you have one understanding of the church and I have another understanding of the church, it eventually is going to result in, we've got to part ways because we don't have the same understanding.

And that's the fight that's going on. And so I appreciate this letter because it addresses a problem. Do you, I mean, I don't anticipate this passing.

No, I mean, I don't see, I mean, if it were, I think the stand has already been attempted and not, you know, the messengers could have already taken care of this in Anaheim had there been the will to do so among them.

Yeah, we have this idea.

And the leadership from the platform. So I think the reality is we've got to open our eyes to the fact if we're going to see anytime you seek reformation in churches or in larger ecclesiastical bodies, you know, convention or association, the reality is there is going to be separation.

There is going to be a division between those who hold to one view or another because the only reason that there needs to be that kind of reformation is because there are people holding to different.

Reformation, Division, and Why True Unity Must Be Grounded in Truth

Well, here's what I want you to think about. And this is why I call it deformation, because one of the things that sparked reformation, like obviously theology, justification by faith, like obviously this is the foundation.

In the core.

But here's another thing, and that is the unqualified clergy, like there were people that didn't have theological astuteness that could see like just the poor, the poor farmer or whatever. And maybe he can't outline everything.

Like you say, does there need to be reformation in the church? I mean, I don't know how he would respond to that, but he could at least say, look, I can look at their lives and I can see they're not qualified to be leadership leaders in the church.

You know, there's simony, there's bribery, there's mistresses, there's illegitimate children, you know, all these things happening because the clergy are unqualified. And so this is part of the reformation is like, this is what a pastor, like part of the reformation was, this is what a pastor is.

Right.

And you remember, you know, the reformers like boldly got married and stuff like that, like praise God, you know, like this is what a pastor is.

Okay.

So now 500 years later, we have now taken this huge circle and we're asking the question, what is a pastor?

Yeah, that's right.

In 500 years, we've gone from, we don't know what a pastor is to we don't know what a pastor.

Is.

Right.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah.

History's funny, isn't it? And, but I mean, this is where we're at the year of our Lord, 2022. We, you know, don't understand the qualifications for a pastor. And like you said, reformation is ultimately going to cause division and division, division can be necessary.

Paul talks about it to the church at Corinth, you know, division sometimes has to happen. I mean, yes, we want unity, but I've used this analogy, you know, so many times there is, there is such thing as unity.

That's not around the truth. You know, it's during football season and it's so funny during football season. If you go to one of these Razorback games, you don't care who someone voted for. You don't care their skin color.

You don't care their, their, you know, gender preference, whatever. You don't care about any of that. When Razorback score a touchdown, if they're sitting next to you, you're giving them a fist bump, you know, there's a unity there, but that's a superficial unity.

And so the unity of a convention or even of a, of a local church must not be superficial. It has to be around the truth. But if you're going to unify around the truth, I think you were just alluding to that just a few minutes ago.

There's going to be division.

Well, even what you, you just mentioned, you know, what Paul said to the Corinthians and he says, this is 1 Corinthians 11, 17 says, but in the following instructions, I do not commend you because when you come together, notice Paul says, when you come together, meaning not watch it on a live stream, when you come together, it is not for the better, but for the worse for in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you.

And I believe it in part for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. And then he goes on to give them instruction in the right taking of the Lord's supper, because even in their gathering, the Lord's supper, which was meant to be this participation in the body of Christ, this fellowship together in the body of Christ had become a means for some to be given to excess and others to be given to hunger.

And so we just, what we notice in this is that Paul's concern really is for the local.

Church.

You know, he says there, when you come together as a church, and I think for too long, we've thought about the church in a consumeristic mindset. I go to the church to get, you know, to get something out of it for me.

And we've also thought of the church simply in terms of the church is this place we go. And then we've also thought of the church as, well, I am the church. And I know several years ago, that was real big, and maybe it still is.

But, you know, people would say, I don't go to church because I'm going to be the church. Well, the only way you're going to be the church is if you gather with other Christians, because that gathering together is the local church.

Amen.

And unity, true biblical unity is always around doctrine. But there's a temptation, and we feel it sometimes, there's a temptation to minimize doctrine for the sake of unity. But the reality is, I'm going to read this from the letter.

He says, devaluing our doctrine will not lead to faithfulness or fruitfulness. Rather, if we learn anything from history, embracing empty doctrines will soon empty our convention, too. Consider the exodus among the liberal and mainline denominations.

They abided with women as pastors for a time. Then they embraced the practice, thereby abandoning sound doctrine. And so began their rapid decline. And it was so true. In the name of unity, you say, well, we're just going to, we're just not going to fight about this.

It's just be a secondary issue. We're going to leave each local church, leave it up to define what a pastor is. You're not actually unifying. You're introducing disunity from the Bible and our historic stance on these things.

And so the point is, it's like true unity has to be connected to the truth. I'm preaching this week on walking in love. And we have this idea of walking in love that like, man, we just love everybody and everything.

But it's like, if you're going to walk in biblical love, it has to be connected to the truth. Truth and love go together. And so true biblical love is to tell people the truth, not beating them over the head or whatever, let's tell them the truth.

Well, same with unity. True biblical unity has to be connected, is centered in the truth.

Yeah.

A few weeks ago, I was preaching on that same issue of we ought to love one another. And I had, as a supporting text, I went to Romans chapter 15. And in Romans chapter 15, Paul talks about us needing to live in harmony with one another.

And the word that's translated harmony, and I know most of us hear the word harmony, and we think in terms of music, maybe. But the word that's translated there is harmony is really referring to being of the same mind.

And so this idea that we're not going to believe the same things, but that we're going to live in harmony, it's just not possible. And the reality is when you move toward let's become less and less doctrinal, less and less of the same mind, the same conviction on these doctrinal issues, eventually your church is going to, your local church, not just a convention or an association, but your local church is going to get to the point where if we don't really believe anything, well, then there's no reason to come here.

There's no reason to gather with these people if we don't really believe anything.

Yeah.

The idea is, that's a good point, because the idea is we're just going to keep broadening, broadening, broadening for the sake of the mission. But the problem is you changing the definition of the mission.

That's right.

It's like you tweak these things, you're tweaking the mission. And so eventually you come together and you don't believe anything and you have no mission. And by the way, look at the Methodist church today, right?

Like they don't believe anything and they have no mission, which I know that they would say like, well, you know, we're, we're feeding people and clothing people and you know, it's like, okay, but yeah, you're coming together.

You don't believe anything and you have no mission. I mean, as a whole, I mean, I don't know, maybe there's pockets of faithfulness out there, but just as a whole, that's the trajectory that organizations like the Southern Baptist Convention are going on.

And I know that if you try to address these things, and this is one of the great problems and this happens on the local level, the, I could tell you this, this happens on the local level, the association level, the state level, and the national level.

If you begin to say, look, this is, these are the issues, then you become the problem. And, and, and that's the sad thing. But that's the reality we have to think. I think Martin Luther and other reformers were in that boat too.

You point out the issues, you become the problem. And so you have to check your motives. You have to check your, your, well, yeah, your motivations and you have to check the veracity of your claims, but you have to make sure that you're doing things in kindness and grace and in love.

But at the end of the day, we're not going to stand before the SBC or before our local church members or people in our towns. We're going to stand before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so it's our, our desire to do what his book says.

Faithfulness in the Local Church and the Next Right Thing

Well, and you know, you mentioned, you mentioned, you know, like the, the Methodists, but it could be said about Southern Baptists as well. What happens when you just keep broadening until you get to that point is what true sheep are in those churches, what true sheep are a part of those associations, what true sheep are a part of the convention or the denomination.

They are starved to death. They are starved to death because I do know some faithful, godly Methodist people who are starving to death. They really do love the Lord, but there's, there's nothing for them to live off of in, in that liberality, in that, you know, in that communion anymore.

They've been in it for decades and they, they don't, you know, a lot of, a lot of times we're probably talking about older generations. And of course we would say, well, get to, get to a faithful church.

But the reality is that that's, that's another tragedy here is that there, there actually are some believers who are, they're not being served because their church has abandoned.

The faith.

Come out, come out of her, my people, you know? And I think that's, that's, that's the really only option in that scenario. But, and then some would say that's the only option in the SBC, you know? And I think that, I think that I don't agree with that at this point, you know, that that's the, like, like if you remain in the, like, if you remain in the SBC, I don't think that you're being unfaithful to our Lord.

However, it's like, how, I mean, I don't know how many more meetings we are away from that, you know, like, like if we're in, we got to keep fighting and pushing, but it's like, it's almost like in some, some days it feels like you're just fighting on your way out.

Yeah.

You know, and you know, we've talked about, I've tried to disengage some things, not because I don't think the fight is important, but it's just like, it will consume you, you know, and got to focus on, on the local church, because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, Christ's mission is not dependent on the cooperative program.

I don't mean to say that it can't be a good tool or that in the past, it hasn't been a.

Good tool.

I just simply mean to say the local church is the mission of Christ and the gates of hell will not prevail against the local church. And so we've got to think through these things as we think about reformation, deformation,.

Et cetera.

You got any more thoughts there?

Yeah, I think, and I think maybe as a, from a practical standpoint, we ought to also recognize that what should we do with all, you know, we've, we've spent, you know, 20 minutes or however long we spent, 30 minutes talking about all these issues.

Now, what, what should we as local church pastors in rural communities, what, what should we actually do? Well, you and I both have fixed our name to the letter, so that that's something we could.

Do.

You know, we did that, but what we should do, I think, is that we should look at where the Lord has put us and seek to live faithfully and shepherd the flock of God that is among.

Us.

You know, that's what Peter tells them in, in first Peter chapter five, shepherd the flock of God that is among you. And so I think that one of the things that we have to recognize that we need to be doing is, is doing the next right thing that we can do.

And sometimes we can almost have this, this desire for some big thing to happen. Like we're going to go to the next meeting and it's going to be settled one way or the.

Other.

It's going to be in or it's going to be out. We can look for that in our local church. We can look for that in our local association. You know, I think a lot of people are looking for that outside of the church in the political sphere.

You know, the next election is going to, it's going to, it's going to, it's going to fix everything one way or the other. And the reality is that's not probably ever going to be the case. And so instead of looking to next week or next year or whenever, when, when we're going to finally have the, the big showdown and then, and then everything's going to be settled.

Instead, we just need to say, what is the next right and faithful thing that I can do in shepherding my local church, in evangelizing my local, in seeking to see the mission of the church accomplished to the ends of the earth.

And let's just do that.

We are an event driven, like you say, you know, just as people, and we even try to study history that way, big events. I mean, we, when we talk about the reformation, October 31st, 1517, we like to put dates and events and all that, but really faithfulness really doesn't, you know, work that way so much.

It's the ordinary waking up every day, doing the next right thing, starting personally, studying the scriptures, reading the Bible, communing with the Lord in prayer, leading your church to be a biblically faithful, healthy church.

You know, the, these are the things that are going to produce fruit over weeks, months, years, and decades. And so not that these other things aren't important, they are, but don't lose sight of ordinary faithfulness over time in the local church.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Well, as always, brother, I've enjoyed this time with you and I appreciate you guys who've tuned in and listen to us. I guess we could say, if you want to reach out to us, probably the best way might be Twitter or something like that, at Quatro Nelson or at Eddie Ragsdale, and you can feel free to ask us a question or you know, a topic you want us to address.

Maybe we'll do that sometime as well, but that'll do it for this episode. Thank you for joining us.

One last thing, one last thing I do want to mention, I'm pretty sure, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I do think that two great books, Before the Throne and From Death to Life are 99 cents on Kindle right now.

By the time I hear this.

By the time this airs, it won't be. Oh yeah, that's right.

It's all good. It's all good, bro.

All right.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Rural Church Podcast. Say goodbye, Eddie.

See you guys next week.