Cessationism Interview With Dr. Tom Pennington

Welcome to the program ladies and gentlemen. My name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today

I want to thank you so much for joining me for the program today. It is a special privilege and honor to be able to interview

Dr. Tom Pennington. He is the pastor of Countryside Bible Church in South Lake, Texas And he has written a book entitled a biblical case for cessationism

Why the miraculous gifts of the Spirit have ended So I'm going to be interviewing him today about his book the arguments

He makes as well as asking him about some of the pushback. There have been some counter arguments

Marshaled against his position and so I'm gonna talk we're gonna talk about those and give him a chance to answer those

Objections. I think that this interview will be helpful for you and by God's grace profitable

So without any further delay, here's my interview with dr. Tom Pennington Well, Tom, let's let's talk about your book a little bit.

It is titled a Biblical case for cessationism why the miraculous gifts of the

Spirit have ended First tell us a little bit kind of in a general sense of about the book.

What is what is and what is not? cessationism and What led you to write this book?

Yeah, no, that's a that's a great place to start because I think there is so much misunderstanding, you know

I think a lot of people who are Dealing with this issue struggling with this issue. They have a caricature in their mind of what cessationism is

They think that it means that that somehow we believe that the Spirit is no longer at work

You know, it's like Pentecost happened and then the Spirit left and after the early church, he's not around anymore

He's not benefiting the church and nothing could be farther from the truth We simply would say this

I would say that Anything eternal that happens today is the work of the

Spirit. So every conversion every step of growth and an individual

Christians life every point of conviction that's brought through the scripture to bear on the heart of an unbeliever all of those things and every other

Spiritual benefit that has any eternal value is the work of the Spirit So we are fully and completely dependent on the

Spirit for everything The question is how does the Spirit work? And of course,

I would say primarily in the scripture implies this very strongly and states it very strongly in the

New Testament through his word Yes, so the key question about cessationism has to do with the exercise of the

Miraculous gifts that were present in the first century church. Mm -hmm question is are those

Normative it's not even can they happen, you know, a lot of a lot of people caricature cessationism is saying

Well, you're putting God in a box the Spirit. You're saying he can't do what he wants to do Of course, he's

God the Spirit do whatever he chooses to do. That's not the question The question is is it normative today?

for believers and local churches to have the same

Miraculous gifts that were present in the first century church in the time of the

Apostles That's the question and the continuationist answer to that is yes, we should seek those things albeit.

They're different You know, they define them differently, but we should seek them The Cessationist answer to that is based on the scripture.

No those served a particular purpose They were real the Spirit was doing

Miraculous things through individuals. He gifted to do those miraculous things that was for a particular purpose and that purpose has ended with the completed scripture and there is

Teaching to that effect there's implication to that effect. There's church history to that effect that underscores it, right?

And in time when we talk about the miraculous gifts specifically, what are those gifts?

Yeah, when you look at the there what four lists of the spiritual gifts in the New Testament And when you look at those gifts

You find that there are some that are clearly what what I would call and many would call

Permanent edifying gifts that is they're non -miraculous. They're gifts that individual Christians can have the gift of administration

Gift of teaching those be examples of those permanent edifying gifts and there are others

I think when you look at the list and I detail these in the book, but I think there are eight gifts that are listed in the

New Testament that are Clearly non -miraculous and Seem to continue through the

New Testament record Right the the other ten gifts that are listed in the

New Testament in those four lists There are ten other gifts. I would say that those gifts are miraculous gifts because they involve something that is not a normal expression of the human natural

Capacities exercised through the Spirit. In other words, it's not simply Teaching that's not miraculous

Everyone would agree that teaching itself is not miraculous now the fruit of that in the heart of an individual may be miraculous but the actual exercise of that gift administration

Giving those are not miracles and those are not miraculous powers. Those are normal human activities

But when you look at those other ten Miraculous gifts in the lists in the

New Testament what you discover is that they are not Normal natural capacities and abilities they are to use the words of both

Testaments they are Miracles, they are signs or in the

Old Testament. They're wonders and and they are things that that are supernatural that are given by the

Spirit a supernatural ability To do something and I think when you look at those miraculous gifts, they divide into two categories

Essentially one of them is revelation. A lot of the miraculous gifts are revelation prophecy.

Yeah Those are the tongues there is revelation involved speaking from God fresh revelation or some other form of revelation related to that when you look at the confirming

Miraculous gifts they somehow confirm The message that would be the gift of healing for example

It is it's not revelation, but it is a miraculous gift confirming the revelation of The messenger.

Mm -hmm, correct. Yes. Okay Alright, and Tom one of the arguments you forward in your book and I found it compelling and it's it's also in the film cessationism film cessationist film

That miracles a lot of people think of Oh miracles were happening all the time in the

Bible I mean cover to cover start to finish, you know, there's a miracle just about on every page, but that's actually not the case

Miracles were primarily compared or confined rather to three periods

Moses and Joshua Elijah and Elisha and then so two periods in the

Old Testament than one in the New Testament, of course with Jesus and the Apostles and But the people who differ with you and one example would be

Gavin Ortlin He's done a video trying to rebut the principles in the both in your book in the book and in the film

But he says that scripture does not limit miracles to those three periods and he gives a few examples.

He says well What about the translation of Enoch? What about the flood of Noah, which? Ironically, he doesn't even think was a global flood, but that's for another discussion the

Tower of Babel Sodom and Gomorrah walls of Jericho Falling down those kind of things, you know, he says those those miracles happen outside of those three periods

So what would your reply be to that argument? Well, that's not an uncommon argument that he's bringing up but my response would be to read the book because I think he's responding primarily to the movie and That documentary is very helpful, but obviously doesn't have a chance to develop every argument.

I think there when you when you Look at the book and when you look at the

New Testament and you look at the this the Old Testament scriptures as well You have to start by differentiating and this is a key differentiation

God does work many miracles directly without the use of human instruments, correct?

those are Scattered throughout the scripture and frankly, I would argue those still happen today

Regeneration every time a dead sinner Experiences the new birth that is a miracle of the

Holy Spirit The same thing happens I believe from time to time today with miraculous healing.

I think God directly intervenes in answer to the prayers of his people and heals a person without the use of ordinary means whether their immune system or Medicine or doctors or whatever and so those are

Direct divine interventions. Those are direct miracles from God Of course those litter the pages of Scripture we find those in other time periods

But that's not the discussion and I think this is where we have to remind ourselves, right? I mean, it's right.

We're we're talking about God giving Humans the capacity to work miracles.

That's right again. I know you know this I just want to make sure those listening know and differentiate because there's a lot of confusion about that.

Of course God directly acts and Produces the miraculous and he does that in other time periods.

Although even that isn't on every page Yeah, it's scattered throughout biblical history.

Yeah When you look at God giving humans the capacity to work miracles

You won't find any Exceptions to those three epics that you mentioned earlier

And so that would be my answer is go look for those exceptions. They don't exist when you're looking for God giving human beings

Men the capacity to work miracles Yes, indeed indeed. Yeah, that's exactly right

And that's one of the things that struck me when I was watching his video is he was yes, he was naming miracles

But they were primarily Direct sovereign acts of God not through a human instrument.

That's just stuff that God did so Yeah all right, and another one of the pushbacks

Tom is the argument that the sign gifts

Faded as we go through the New Testament chronologically Which of course the books in our

Bibles are not necessarily ordered chronologically, but as you go through them chronologically as according to the events that they they record then

You say that those those miracles faded away fairly quickly like the healings on the island of Malta about the year

AD 58 and after that there's no more mention of miraculous gifts, there's no more mention of true miracles like at raising the dead or healing the sick and You point out that the

Apostle Paul wrote Nine other epistles not to mention the epistles of the

Apostles Peter and John In in those in none of those letters epistles.

Are there any is there any mention of how to Walk in these sign gifts perform these sign gifts and yet these were written as instructions for the churches and and He would say that you can't make an argument from silence

Because in one of the examples he gives is the Lord's Supper. Well, Paul doesn't mention the Lord's Supper after First Corinthians and yet we still do the

Lord's Supper. So what would your reply be to that? Well, let's start with the last one the

Lord's Supper. I mean clearly there's a difference between something that is Commanded forever to the church, which

Christ did you have the three gospel records you have first Corinthians all Commanding that ordinance to be practiced in the church

So how many times does God have to command something for us to do it? so I would say that's at a different level than the

The outfolding of the purpose of God in the book of Acts, which is narrative It is it is descriptive not prescriptive but when you come to the epistles where it is prescriptive and Particularly the pastoral epistles as you mentioned where we're told how to do life in the church

You don't find those things occurring you find all the other things we do as a church in corporate worship

But you don't find that so that's where I would start But but back to the you can't make a case for this gradual fading of the miraculous let me just put that in context because you need to remember that in the book and in And particularly in the book but in the in the strange fire conference where I first dealt with this

Case I make seven arguments. This is part of one, you know

It's it's the last argument and that is relating to church history What do we see happening in church history with the miraculous gifts and I start in the

New Testament era? Making the point that even in the New Testament scriptures

We begin to see a decline of the miraculous and I make certain make that point several different ways

You've already touched on them. But let me just let me just enumerate them first of all, you clearly have a

Decline in the mention in the letters as they unfold, you know

The the fourth letter Paul wrote was first Corinthians. That's the last mention we have of the gift of tongues for example, he wrote

Nine other letters and he never mentions that again and I would add even more importantly in the pastoral epistles where we are

Told how to do church, you know He writes to for to Timothy and first Timothy 3 15 in case

I played I'm writing these things to you so that you would know how one ought to conduct himself in the church the

Household of God and so this is about church and everything else is there but there's no miraculous expression in those books in addition to that in the last

Letters Paul writes to his sons in the faith in particular to Timothy He references the fact that that he had to he had to leave

Trophimus sick And he encourages Timothy to take something for his frequent ailments non -miraculous, so you already see that sort of decline even in the ministry of your

Paul Paul And I would add to that the book of Hebrews I think if you look at Hebrews and I'll just turn there because I think it's such a foundational passage

Hebrews chapter 2 We know that Hebrews was written shortly before the destruction of the temple in 70

AD So we're looking because the destruction of the temple isn't mentioned here in a book that talks about the destruction of that system

Yeah, clearly it would have been and so you come to chapter 2 and and Here's what the author of Hebrews writes he said

How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After that salvation was it first spoken through the

Lord? There's the first generation the Lord spoke And then he says it was confirmed to us by those who heard so he's talking about those who heard

Being the Apostles in that generation. Mm -hmm, and then he says it was confirmed to us

So now you're you're another generation removed and he's saying that that Message of the gospel was spoken to the

Lord to the Apostles and then to us and he adds it was Confirmed to us by those who heard

God testifying with them Both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the

Holy Spirit according to his will So the writer of Hebrews writing shortly before 70

AD says by his time He's looking back and saying the

Apostles were given this power this capacity to confirm the message the

Lord had given them by their working signs wonders and Miracles and it was confirmed to us who heard and there's no evidence that at his generation in that time period

It was still happening. It's it's a very clear Pattern when you look at that text.

Yeah, that's right. I agree 100 % They would say When Paul left trophimus sick at Miletus, that was an indication not that the gift of healing was fading away

But rather you they just didn't have the ability to wield that gift at will

It was just kind of sporadic hit -or -miss, you know, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that last part, but I don't think that the gift of miracles meant that someone could heal

Whenever they chose I think it was always under the direction of the Spirit That's right. That's what you still have.

My point is when you look at the overall data That I just laid out look at the

New Testament in chronological order You can and do see a decline of the miraculous so that by the time you get past the mid 50s

Maybe you don't see the miraculous again. That is Incontrovertible It's that's not an argument from silence

That's an argument from what's on the pages of Scripture That's something that they have to deal with and really respond to and present an argument against and I've not heard a valid argument

Other than you can't argue from silence Well, it's it's really not from silence because you're dealing with books that are addressing life in the church.

Mm -hmm That's exactly right. Yep, and You know what we see today in the charismatic movement

Tom bears no resemblance to what we see in the book of Acts and and I agree with your point that that We're not saying that the

Apostles could go up to Just every single sick person at will and it will and heal them

But that having been said what we do see is when they had that Um unction when they had that leading direction from the

Holy Spirit to exercise that gift It worked, you know to use that term 100 % of the time right absolutely.

Absolutely. Acts 3 immediately incontrovertibly Yeah, fully. Yeah, we never see an example of an apostle going up to someone whether it's

Peter whether it's John whether it's Paul and they they healed many many people going up to someone and commanding a sick person to be healed and it's like Well, sorry,

I didn't work for you Absolutely. They knew they they knew with 100 % certainty that that sick person was about to be healed acts 3 them

Right the man born when I know his mother's womb that there was no question. Yeah, Peter knew what was about to happen

Yeah, exactly, yeah Absolutely, right. It's a it's a dodge, isn't it?

I mean you've you've heard about this It's an absolute dodge to throw it back on the person because when you look at the

New Testament those who had the power to work miracles and specifically the gift of healing they

Healed a hundred percent of the time. It was verifiable incontrovertible even the enemies of the gospel had to recognize its reality and We're trying to somehow excuse it, but they couldn't because it was so obvious and clear.

That's right It is so so different from what we see today As you said the enemies you read

Acts chapter 3 Acts chapter 4 after Peter and John healed the man born lame from his mother's womb

They they were trying to put a lid on this thing the enemies of the gospel the Pharisees I said they were trying to cover it up and they said, you know, what are we gonna do with this?

We cannot deny that a notable miracle notable sign has taken place, you know

We cannot deny it and you know like like The Apostles, of course their

Lord. I mean, I love John 11 where there was no question There was not a well

I heard from somebody, you know on the other side of the world that somebody was raised from the dead right,

I mean Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead two miles from Jerusalem and They know what happened they're not arguing that didn't happen and they're just saying the only thing we can do is kill

Lazarus who was raised and killed Jesus who raised him. I mean So that's the kind of miracles you see in the

New Testament. That's right. That's right Yeah, I've told people and people don't like this, but it's true

The very fact that there is a debate today as to whether or not these sign gifts continue to be in operation is self -evident

Proof that they're not you're absolutely right and that goes back doesn't I was thinking of this a moment ago when you were when you were?

Talking goes back to the purpose of the sign gifts. They are to confirm the messenger. What good is a sign gift?

That doesn't work. That's right. Nothing If I have to say it didn't work and it's your fault

How in the world does that confirm anything it confirms honestly that I'm a false prophet.

Uh -huh I mean, that's what it confirms. That's right. That's exactly right and Even some sis, excuse me, even some of the charismatic some of them would admit in fact

Gavin Ortlund admits this that there are no more capital a apostles today as in people holding that office with the same apostolic authority as the the 12 or the 13 depending on what you do with Matthias, but And I find that fascinating when

I hear charismatics make that admission because Isn't being an apostle and to differentiate from general

The word apostle just means people who are sent one who sent that's all it means. So there's a general sense in people like sending out from the church, but then there's the what we denote with a capital a office of Having of being an apostle as in as in your name is written on the twelve foundation stone being an apostle

Exactly, they would admit that There are no more of those guys anymore that have that authority.

Well Isn't being a an apostle capital a apostle isn't that in and of itself a gift of the

Spirit? Absolutely, and it's listed that way I mean in Ephesians 4 it's clear that the gift of apostleship is just that a gift from Christ to his church and and Once you have admitted that the chief perhaps

Miraculous gift in the New Testament the gift of apostleship has ceased

That's right Then you have admitted in that moment that there was a major shift from the apostolic era era to the post

Apostolic era which is what they want to deny but by admitting what they just said what you just quoted them as saying

They are admitting that very reality. That's right. And it's what's interesting to me is

That happens that is the gift of capital a apostleship ends without any obvious Announcement of it in Scripture and they would admit that yeah, and yet I want to say well

There's no announcement that the gift of tongues is going to cease so it must not have ceased Well, the biggest miraculous gift in the

New Testament ceased without an announcement that it was going to see That's right. That's an excellent point.

Absolutely So in admitting that and again, some would say no there are capital a apostles today

It's a new apostolic Reformation and right but even those Charismatics who would say that that that gift capital a apostle has has ceased.

I'm like, oh, okay Say that again slowly you you've just admitted you've just admitted to the whole premise of cessationism

Absolutely. Absolutely I think that is the sort of finger in the dike and that's why frankly in part

I think some want to want to say no No, there are now capital a apostles is because there's some realization that that is the finger in the dike and if you do that It's like the whole thing collapses

Yes, it does. It surely does Absolutely. Absolutely And Tom another one of the pushbacks

They would say well God when we as cessationists say that God is not speaking in a direct quotable sense outside of Scripture Because if that were true

Then that would logically lead to an open canon of Scripture because whatever God says should be just as authoritative

As anything he said in Scripture and they say well, well God still speaks today, but it's not as Authoritative in the same authoritative way that he spoke in the

Bible. Is that a tenable position? and and the answer to that is

Let's define terms if you mean that God is still speaking through his word by granting the

Illumination the spirit brings to the believers mind as they read the scripture and you're now

Understanding the scripture in a deeper more profound way if that's what you mean, then a minute men but if you mean that God is

Communicating something directly to your mind What account what amounts to direct revelation then

I would say there's no biblical evidence for that In fact, I would argue the evidence is absolutely contrary to that We have to use, you know

Peters language We have this this more sure word that's been given to us in the scripture.

So we don't need Something external and you know, I think I grew up in a circle where there was a lot of mysticism

You know not so much the charismatic movement, but this mystical idea that God speaks to me and I think that's a dangerous door to open because I think

First of all, it's not biblical. There's not evidence of that, but I think beyond that That becomes so subjective there is it's impossible to know

I've had I'm sure you've had the same thing I'll sit with people in my office counseling them and the man will look across the the desk at me and say

Tom God told me he wants me to divorce my wife. Yeah, it's like well

You know, you don't have biblical grounds. Well, God told me Well, my response to that is how you mean like you heard a voice.

Oh, no, Tom I don't mean like I heard a voice although some would say that I mean I mean that I just had this sense this this impression and my immediate response to that is

How do you know that was God? How do you know that wasn't your flesh? How do you know that wasn't you know, some worldly influence that you've read somewhere that's coming to bear on your mind

You have no way in the world to know that's God Yeah, not one way and that's true with any extra biblical revelation

That's why you know, I love what Luther said in the Reformation He said the beauty of the scripture is we have the external word

We have the words of God to us in black and white on the page, there's no subjectivity

We don't have to wonder if this is what God said there and so that would be my

My admonition to somebody who's thinking like that is you don't really treasure what you have

You have the external word. You don't have to wonder if this is God or not

Yeah, I tell people I don't know if you've heard me say this or not But I tell people if you have to wonder whether or not

God spoke to you. He didn't he didn't that's exactly right God doesn't he doesn't whisper.

That's right. God doesn't whisper. That's exactly right Tom one of the one of the pushbacks

I've seen is from first Peter 4 11 and this ties into what we were talking about and I just I know where you're gonna go with this but first Peter 4 11

Gavin Portland brought up this pointies It says as each one has received a gift employed in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God Whoever speaks as one speaking the oracles of God and they would say well, here's the

Apostle Peter This is after we a cessation to say those the revelatory sign gifts have ceased and yet he's talking about a gift it's in verse 10 and Whoever speaking speaking the oracles of God.

So isn't this a reference to God giving New revelation people speaking for God or God speaking through people in a way.

That's not Recorded in Scripture or even on par with Scripture. Yeah. No, I would have two responses to that I mean first of all just look at the context what

Peter is clearly doing is he's telling people how to live in the midst of times of difficulty and Persecution and suffering and he's talking about Exercising your spiritual gift as each one has received a special gift employed in serving one another

So he's talking about all believers and all he does is divide the spiritual gifts that are that are extant at that time into two categories into speaking gifts and serving gifts and So of it's clear and nobody would argue in terms of when he says serving he's talking about all the serving gifts

It's a category and he says make sure you don't do that in your own strength Which is a temptation for people who have serving gifts you make sure you do that in the strength of the

Spirit you serve by the strength with God's supplies and Then he says if you're have a speaking gift

Then make sure it's the same kind of admonition if you're going to have a speaking gift

Make sure you're not speaking your words You're speaking the oracles of God that that Greek word is used of Revelation but in context it's use of the revelation that's here.

I mean if you look at Peter, you know What does Peter talk about he talks about even back in chapter 1 of 1st

Peter? He says you have been you've been born again Not of the seed which is perishable but imperishable

Through the living and enduring word of God you've been born again by the Word of God and then he goes on to say and you

Grow by like a newborn baby Desiring the milk of the word that you can grow.

Yeah, so that's how he frames it You go to his second letter. And what does he say in the in chapter 1 of his second letter?

He says we have this this word of prophecy more sure in the scriptures That's right better than the experience

I had on the Mount of Transfiguration it's it's better to have the

Word of God than to have been on the Mount of Transfiguration and to see the glorified

Revelation of Christ. That's what Peter says. Yes, and so that's the context in which he's making this point

You have to take it out of the context of first and second Peter to make it something more than You if you have a serving gift

Then served by the strength which God supplies if you have a speaking gift then make sure it's not your words but God's words those

Applicational points are parallel. Yes, you have to take them in their context. Yes Exactly, right.

This is this is not God downloading direct divine Revelation something new that has not been known before this is not this is not a prophetic in the sense of Isaiah Jeremiah or even apostolic in the sense of you know, these are the direct words.

He's seen simply saying If you have a speaking gift, don't give your own Advice don't give your own opinion

Give godly advice give advice that is congruent with the teaching of Scripture Absolutely.

No, I think and he's taking all the speaking gifts into that category So as you just pointed out if you have the gift of exhortation you're giving advice and counsel

To make sure it's based on the scripture If you're a public teacher if you're if you're standing in that role, then make sure you're not talking

To people and giving your own ideas your own sort of TED talk

But instead you are teaching the very oracles of God You are explaining his word and of course, that's exactly what

Paul said to Timothy right preach the word That's all Peter saying that's Serve through the strength

God supplies. If you have the serving gift, you have a teaching gift use the tool He's given to teachers, which is his word.

Yes, indeed indeed Well Tom, this could this next question could probably be a whole hour in and of itself easily or more

But talk to us just a little bit. What is the testimony of church history?

Tell us about cessation ism You know as we look through let's say we get past the the apostolic era at least in the closing of the canon from that point forward, you know in the last almost 2 ,000 years or so Do we see these gifts these sign gifts continue in the church or what is what can we learn from church history?

Well, the truth is as you know church history poses a huge problem for our cessationists.

I'm sorry for our continuationist friends Yeah, because they have to do one of two things when you look at church history a continuationist either has to say that in Little pockets here and there the miraculous gifts have continued unabated since the early church

Or they have to say well We have to admit when we look at the flow of church history that they largely went away and declined

But now at the direction of the spirit they sort of reappear in you know beginning of the 20th century

I mean those are the two approaches they have to take because when you look at the flow of church history and the the main voices that we look to primarily for other doctrines

They are saying That the gifts ceased and the reason that matters and I make this point

Obviously the most important arguments are biblical arguments, right? But as a student of Scripture and you know, this is someone who teaches often one of the last things

I do Before I go to teach God's people Before I put the finishing touches on a given sermon is

I check my own interpretation against Godly saints who have spoken on this issue before because we believe if it's the truth

If we're really teaching what's in the scripture Then the Holy Spirit has brought us to the same conclusion that he's brought others before us to that conclusion

And so it's not that church history is equal to Scripture rather We're looking at church history to say what have other saints concluded this passage teaches because that's another check or a test

When you do that when you look back and you start looking as you said at the at the post apostolic

From the early days of the church fathers. You see a united voice there are exceptions and I'll admit that and occasionally

Continuationists will cite those individuals But they have to do that. They have to find

Little pockets of that and often they were people whose theology was very flawed in other ways as well

Yeah, but we look at the flow of men like Augustine On so much of our doctrine of salvation is built on understanding the scriptures even as he understood them

You work your way through church history. You see again and again John Chrysostom one of the great expositors of that early era

You look then you move forward and there was a time of darkness in a lot of ways

Including the eclipse of the scripture through the Middle Ages, but you covered with a reformation and you see them again

Wholeheartedly affirming and there's a there's a quote I know I think Gavin may bring up a quote from Luther that seems to imply that maybe the gift

But you have to look at that in its context when you look at at the reformers and their overarching

Statements about this issue and I include a number in the book When you do that you discover that they were with one voice saying the miraculous gifts had ceased with the first century and You know, you move on through church history the greatest theologian

America's probably ever produced Jonathan Edwards Makes this point Spurgeon. I know a man that many of us who have a

Baptist background Appreciated admire on and on goes. I mean again, I just give a sampling in that chapter in the book and The great voices of the church

Speak with one voice on this issue. Yeah So Tom one other thing, you know, we talked about this issue cessation is on continuism

Why is it such a big deal? And I think

I speak for you. In fact, I know I do Neither one of us would say that if you're charismatic that means you're lost.

We're not we're not saying that So it's not a primary gospel issue But in at least in my book as far as a secondary issues, it's it's top -tier secondary because of so many ripple effects and a number of other issues as well, but Wine, why spend so much time talking about this?

Why write a book? Why do a conference about it? What are the implications of this?

What's the dangers of the charismatic position? Yeah, well, first of all, that's a great question.

I think it's a key question I try to address that but but I would say you have to think about it in two parts.

I agree with you that If someone is right on the cardinal doctrines of the christian faith the person of christ the person of god the the biblical gospel those key issues

Then they're they're a brother in christ and I'm going to respond to them differently on this issue than I would to others

But I think it's also important to acknowledge That you know the charismatic movement claims some

I think it's six hundred and sixty seven million Charismatics in the world. Yeah, that sounds impressive until you start sort of dissecting that And while you can be a charismatic and be a genuine born -again christian you need to understand

I know you do understand this. I I just speak to those who might be listening that There are many professing charismatics most professing charismatics who are not

Genuine christians. How do I know? Well, you've got 195 million of those are roman catholics

Most of whom don't understand the biblical gospel and who have embraced a false gospel Yeah, then you've got

I think you have 25 million one is pentecostals Yeah, who who have rejected the biblical god and therefore are under the anathema of scripture, that's right

You know you have on top of that and by the by the charismatic movement's own admission

Some 40 percent of their movement is into the prosperity gospel, which isn't a biblical gospel at all

And so you start doing the math and pretty soon Well over 50 percent and some would estimate as high as 70 percent or more

Of professing charismatics across the world And you have to look at it worldwide. Yeah are in fact

Not born again bible believing christians because they don't understand the biblical gospel.

Yeah, and so I think you have to start there That's it. Let's talk now about that somewhere between 30 and 40 percent that may in fact

Embrace a biblical gospel that may understand the truth about god the truth about christ truth about the gospel

You're right for them. They can be brothers sisters in christ It is a secondary issue in that sense because they've embraced the primary issue of christ in the gospel but It's an it's a crucial issue to your point and to your question

And and you understand this because you've had to deal with this through your whole ministry It undermines the scripture

Unintentionally in many cases, but nevertheless it does because if you have to choose if I say to you

You know justin look you can choose between god speaking to you Through a two to three thousand year old book and it's the same thing.

He's saying to every other believer, yeah or You can have god speaking directly and personally to you today

What are you going to choose? Yeah, you are going to choose and you're going to gravitate toward By just our human nature that more personal quote unquote that more intimate

Sort of approach and so what happens is even unintentionally in in good you know evangelical charismatic churches is the the emphasis in And focus on the reveal word of god is undermined and slowly eaten away

Until this grows into far more important of a picture than ought to be even those who say

You know, we don't want that to happen. It just happens because that's human nature.

That's right Yeah, that's human nature. Absolutely And even there what i've observed tom is that there's a lot millions upon millions of Charismatics out there who would say well, we don't we're not into the prosperity gospel

Bethel church in redding california would say that they would say that but then you go watch their services

And they do these offering uh readings It's as bad as any anything you would ever hear from benny hen.

They teach Health they teach well, but so They say oh on the one hand.

Yeah, we're not really into the prosperity gospel We just teach it. I mean, it's so I know you're right.

You're right I have you know, I I have and you're aware of this a large charismatic church That's not far from me where where you know, they would they would claim a biblical gospel

But when you look at the materials that are put out, it's very much at least prosperity gospel light

If if not, you know the the full number and so you you just Yeah, you're absolutely right.

You you can't take all self -definitions because who wants Who wants an american culture?

That has any sort of conservative bent at all To be called, you know a person who's into the prosperity gospel, right?

I mean some of the worst of them would say oh no. No, I don't I wouldn't do that. Yeah and tom too

There are it seems to me that even with the most careful to use for lack of a better word the most careful and cautious of charismatics specifically, um guys like wayne grudem and sam storms

Uh, they would they would affirm Benny hen as a brother. Uh, i've i've i've heard sam storms say that directly to me in person

Uh, michael brown, dr Michael brown is probably the leading apologist of the charismatic movement.

Um, he would say that he's not in favor of the prosperity gospel and yet Uh, he affirms and gives cover

To some of the most egregious and quite frankly obvious charlatans

Out there and gives them cover and would affirm them As a brother in christ simply because they've made

Verbal profession to the To the basics of the gospel, um, right?

So so I guess two points What does it say when even the most careful

Of charismatics would affirm someone like benny hen or kenneth copeland they'll say well, yeah, he's an error

But he's a brother because he's made verbal assent to these to the basics of the gospel

Does that does that say that there is a does that indicate that there's a a shocking lack of discernment even within the most careful of Charismatics.

Yeah, I mean you and I would be in full agreement. Absolutely because you know heretics through the history of the church

Have affirmed certain things to be true while denying others that makes no less a heretic for example a great a great example in my mind would be

An obvious one that I think they would agree with would be the one that's pentecostals Who have rejected the trinity?

They would affirm many of the tenets of the biblical gospel that you and I would affirm Yeah, and yet I wouldn't call them brothers because one of the cardinal fundamental doctrines of the christian faith.

They've denied so You what you give with one hand you can take away with the other and that can make you less than what you profess

Right. I mean there are a lot of christians to take it at a totally different in a totally different way There are a lot of christians who profess an evangelical gospel, but to whom christ will say

I never knew you never knew their lives of of antinomianism their lives given over to lawlessness

Yeah, and so if if they can profess And not be genuine christians and we can say that because they've given themselves over to sin and patterns of sin in their lives

That's then it's okay to say of someone else. Well, yes, he claims to be a brother but he's denied these cardinal doctrines of the faith in some way and therefore

We can't acknowledge him as a brother regardless of what he says I'll give you a personal example when

I was in christian radio when I was working at grace to you for many years I interacted with the heads of other ministries and there was the the head of another ministry.

It was jack hayford's ministry um who he and I were in a car one time that this man who headed jack hayford's ministry and I Were in a car and we were talking about this very issue and I was challenging him

You can't just accept someone because they say they believe in jesus and he said I don't know tom

He said, you know if someone claims To follow jesus then I I need to accept him as a brother.

I said, okay Well, let me give you and I thought here's an outrageous example. He's got to agree with me I said what if a mormon says to you?

Well, I believe in jesus And he said well, he said I just I just think if they say they believe in jesus

I said to him brother It's not the biblical. Jesus not the same. Jesus, you know, and and yet that's

I appreciate the heart I appreciate the desire to be careful and to say

We're not going to we're not going to condemn someone to hell Who has professed the biblical gospel, you know?

We want to be careful there and I think christ admonishes us that right in matthew 13 He says, you know in the in the parable of the tares

The disciples all eager and say lord You want us to go rip up the tares and he says no because in ripping up the tares you may rip up the real wheat

Right. Okay. I appreciate that and and there's there's reason to be careful but when someone denies

Clearly a doctrine of the christian faith Then it's okay to say they're not a christian

It's okay for me to say and for you to say as you do That can't be a christian because they deny the deity of christ.

They deny The the biblical person of christ they deny his humanity They deny the basis on which a person is made right with god by yeah faith alone

You know through the work of christ alone, so it's okay to say that and I think that's what some are so hesitant

It's well, they claim the biblical gospel they've said this Yeah, but if if their their other doctrine is heretical

Then they're not brothers, even though they claim that yeah And and the demons intellectually believe all the basics of the gospel

Just like we do satan himself and all of the fallen angels intellectually They believe just as much in the deity of christ as death as resurrection

Intellectually as we do that's exactly right and that's why I started with the example of matthew 7 You know at the judgment, that's right.

They're going to say lord lord, and he's going to say I never knew you Even though they have the right profession of the right person.

Yeah, why because you work lawlessness you work lawlessness. That's right That's right.

So it's okay for for me to say to someone who claims the biblical jesus But has lived for 40 years as a pagan

Yeah, brother you're not a christian you can't be christians have a changed heart

And there's evidence of that in their lives. It's okay for me to say that it's also okay for me to say someone

Who is a false teacher on television? look, you claim jesus, yeah, but The way you live and the rest of what you teach denies that Absolutely.

I'm so glad you said that it's it's not just a denial a verbal denial of some uh primary

Tenet of the gospel doctrinally speaking that's legitimate in and of itself But benny hinn, for example, he would affirm the trinity.

He's not a oneness pentecostal. He would affirm the trinity deity of christ bodily Crucifixion death bodily resurrection salvation by grace alone through faith alone christ alone all those things

He wouldn't he would affirm those things and based upon that michael brown and sam storms and and wayne grudem they would say well, well, yeah, he's an error, but he's a brother and I was like No, where where?

He denies the gospel with his life Right. How is it that you can be have the indwelling of the holy spirit of god?

And spend your entire life decades now about 50 years now for benny hinn

Teaching lies Giving hundreds literally hundreds of false prophecies putting words in god's mouth that he did not say

Faking signs and wonders claiming people were healed when they're not healed and exploiting the poor sick and the desperate and the widows

For your own personal financial gain every once in a while you repent of it when you have some scrutiny But then within like literally days

You're back doing the same thing Right, you're denying the gospel with your life, right?

Absolutely. And to your point I mean it was okay in the old testament era to identify a false prophet, right?

If he was wrong once he was a false Once and so it's okay for us to say that man is a false prophet.

He's claiming to speak for god And yet he's been wrong as you said Many times and so it's okay to say in that case

He's a false prophet again I think in some cases and I don't know each of those brothers motivations individually

But I think in some cases it's well intentioned. It's like well, I don't want to go too far and and make a determination about someone else's soul if they claim the biblical jesus

And there's a there's an element of truth to that But there are also clear prescriptions in scripture when it's okay to say that and the false prophet one is a clear one

And so I don't understand that hesitancy if if they if they're not speaking in agreement with previous revelation, you know that To use deuteronomy 13 deuteronomy 18

If they if they are not able to perform Incontrovertible miracles that prove they're a spokesperson for god.

Yeah, or if they're ever wrong once Then it's okay to say That's a false prophet

That man doesn't speak for god absolutely Uh, it's it's ironic.

I've told this to people before it's ironic In all this discussion that charismatics would look at you and me as cessationists and others

They would look at cessationists and say we have a low view of the holy spirit of god and And I say to the contrary

You know, why is it that the charismatic movement that claims to have? The highest view of the holy spirit of god the most intimate relationship with him

Personal intimate hearing him speak to them all the time. Why is it that this movement this same movement?

Is the welcoming home to the most egregious? heretics Right the most prolific false prophets the most obvious charlatans uh who've brought untold reproach upon the name of christ and they do this for many of them for decades literally

And there's no repentance right Where is the work of the holy spirit in your life?

How does that so it's not we? Who have a low view of the holy spirit of god? I would say it is they who have a low view of god's holy spirit agree or disagree

Absolutely agree I think if the spirit of god gave us his word and that is his great contribution to our spiritual life and beyond our regeneration

Is to use his word to continue to sanctify us and you can't deny that I mean christ prayed that right in his high priestly prayer

Sanctify them through the truth. Your word is true. That's right the tool the spirit intends to use

Then to elevate the word Is not to you know add a different member to the trinity as we've sometimes been accused of doing, you know

The bible is the third member of the trinity. No, it's to exalt the spirit himself So he gave us that word as the resource he intends to use.

Yes And to let him speak when we know he has spoken Is to exalt the spirit as opposed to saying

Something we think the spirit may have said and we have no real idea if it was or not

In fact, it's not and it ends up even contradicting the word he's given us which is more

Elevating exalting of the spirit. It's to follow his path in the resource.

He's given us Yeah, indeed. Absolutely tom Well tom one one final question is is there do you also see a danger within the charismatic movement?

um, you know, there's a constant emphasis on Dreams revelations prophecies signs and wonders the the latest whoever's been to heaven

Uh, and it seems to me that I mean there's precious little Exposition of scripture that goes on in the charismatic movement

Right very little It's almost almost without exception charismatic preachers. They will exegete their own dreams and visions but not scripture and it seems like people are

Searching after they're constantly wanting the next buzz The next spiritual high and so there's what they're it's like this endless hamster wheel

Of searching after the next big thing the next experience something you can see in touch Is there a danger in that and does that reflect?

a dissatisfaction with the written word of god Absolutely, and I and I know you know that and embrace that same truth

I mean one of the chapters one of the arguments and one of the chapters in my book is on the sufficiency of scripture

And what you really do? when you pursue dreams and visions and Whether individually or a pastor in a church setting supposedly exegeting his dream

Is you are making a public or in the case of an individual private confession?

That you have lost confidence in the sufficiency of the word of god That's really what you're saying. You're saying it's not enough.

God hasn't given us enough of a resource in his word There needs to be more and so one of the main points

I make is just walking through those texts Where god tells us where the spirit tells us in his word

This is all you need. This is all you need as paul says You know to timothy.

This is all you need for salvation You know, it's all there revealed in the sacred writings

And it's all you need to make you a man of god to make you Perfect to make you mature to bring you to maturity.

What else do we need? We need you know We need to know how to know god and we need to know how to walk with god and paul says it's all there

It's been given to us in the scriptures. And so That's what we celebrate, you know to kind of Go back to where we started, you know, we are often caricatured as cessationists as What we're against well, the truth is it's about what we're far

We're for the holy spirit and his powerful work in and through His word in our lives and the lives of his people and we're for the scriptures that the spirit gave us

And so like you said I would argue that cessationists Actually champion the holy spirit.

Amen work in those in the continuationist movement because we champion What he has chosen to give us and to elevate

And that is the all -sufficient word Amen, amen and amen Tom, thank you so very much.

Thank you for your time and uh For those who may be in the dfw area and are looking for a good church

Tell us a little bit about countryside. Where are you located? And How can people we well, thank you.

Yeah. No, we have uh, we've it's been my joy to be here for 20 years at countryside Amen, oh three and the lord has been so gracious a wonderful group of people

I tell people all the time I'd attend this church if I weren't its pastor Which it's no a lot of pastors may not say.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a joyous A duty and privilege for me to shepherd here countryside

Is just off of the 114 if you come out the the north end of the dfw airport

That's what everybody who knows anything about dallas knows if you come out the north end of the dfw airport and go 10 minutes west

We're right there right on the main freeway in the dallas area and you know, we have uh the joy of of a

A wonderful sunday, I would just mention in case somebody's interested We have three identical services on sunday morning all the same at eight o 'clock nine thirty and eleven

Oh five, sorry for the strange time, but got to fit an extra little time for exchange in there and then a totally

Unique service on sunday evening at six o 'clock So we'd love to have if anyone's in the area for them to come and worship with us.

It would be our joy All right Good deal And uh, we are also having a cessationism conference cessationist conference, uh later this year

And i'll be speaking at it. You will be speaking at it uh, phil johnson, mike riccardi josh by scott annual some others, so Are you looking forward to that conference as much as I am?

I am it brings back great memories from the time. We had you remember at strange fire back in In 2013 and just a chance to revisit the issue.

I mean, you know more than I about There's been a lot of things that have happened You know in the charismatic world over these these last 10 almost 11 years

Yeah, and of course the truth of god is unchanged But it still needs to be heard needs to be championed and we need to be encouraged

In the resources we have in the spirit of the word So yeah, i'm i'm thrilled excited looking forward to being up in the oklahoma area and michael staton's church up there

Yeah for the uh for the g3 conference So yeah invite anyone who who hasn't heard and would like to join us

I'm sure they can find out more on the g3 website All right. Sounds good

Well tom, thank you again, brother. Appreciate you so much Well, thanks so much for the opportunity.

It's my joy. All right, good deal Well, dear friends, I hope this has been helpful for you.

Thank you so much for joining us Uh links down below in the description to tom's book

And uh the church countryside church as well as well as the cessationist conference

Coming up later this year in october of 2024 at first baptist church mustang

Oklahoma, so all the pertinent links down below in the description Until our next time together.