Ravi Zacharias and How to Prevent a Ministry

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Give you some things one thing. I want to do let me bring in Pastor Justin. How are you, sir?

Wonderful brother. How you doing? Wonderful Wonderful.

I've got my horses in the back. Yeah, I see We're back. I guess I guess last week people mentioned that you look like you were you know

I'm trying to prepare to be with Pastor Coates and you were just had the cell

Look of being in a in a jail cell, but I'm glad glad you were let out So, let's let's get through some introductory things before we get to the topic tonight the topic tonight's gonna be

Ravi Zacharias and some of the things that we think could be could have prevented what happened there now

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We're missing one person here And so for that I need to explain

Dr. Silvestro called me about half an hour ago. Some you may have seen his

Facebook post. His father -in -law is not doing well His father -in -law is basically at the end of of life on earth and Because of that dr.

Silvestro is is with his wife with his father -in -law with the family there And I'm not sure whether he is gonna be able to make it

I we don't want to force him to try to rush and he's got more important things to be doing So if you could lift up his wife's family

This is you know, as some of you know, we he just recently Dr.

Special recently lost his father and and now we have his father -in -law and So this in a rough few weeks months for the

Silvestro's so we just asked that you would lift them up in prayer So with that I think

I should in way of more things to get started with I'll put this up on screen here

Justin and this is If you guys are gonna if anyone is in the

Orlando area If you're in the Orlando area, this is our snatch them from the flames

Seminar that we're going to be doing we're doing this May 7th to 10th in Orlando Well, I technically

Winter Garden, Florida Beulah Baptist Church, so if you guys need to get away

Get get out of the cold and you want to come down Maybe spend some time at Disney World and then join a great seminar.

We're gonna have Justin Peters myself. Dr. Silvestro Dr. Casey Butner is the pastor there.

We will be having a great time The website to get more information is

Beulah Baptist WG org so that's where to go for that now

Justin I've been blamed for some things recently. I Don't know doesn't surprise me

But you know just because so if you've listened to voice a reason radio

Which which I recommend you listen to but if you've if you listen to voice a reason radio Dr.

White Decided that he was kind of had enough with you know with What he was seeing from The host there

Chris Han holds and I guess this started some time ago when Chris Han holds basically said he never saw the movie elf and so dr.

White bought Chris Han holds a buddy the elf doll with a pull string that I guess was you know the highlight of their show and So I'm being blamed for this and those that see on screen

This is a full -size buddy the elf that showed up at Chris's house

Now I Need to say it for the record, you know Chris said on his show that you know that James White outdid me because I always announce

When I do things and therefore I didn't announce this so it can't be me I actually believe if you look closely,

I actually look think this looked a lot more like Chris Han holds Then it does buddy the elf.

I think there's a zoom in close. Yeah, see this is a much better picture of of Chris the elf

I think that's what so I think he needs to hang up his his Captain America Outfit and and just go with buddy the elf.

It just I think he looks better that way I could see him doing that at all his events

And and folks if you if you don't know if you're not on Twitter or or Facebook and you don't follow

Chris Han holds and the antics this man has that seem to follow him But whoever whoever did that kudos to them

I'm being told that dr. White's not done so I guess whoever sent this left a note saying that that they weren't going to be outdone by by James White and so they're

Deep dive discipleship says Andrew stays trolling. I see I get blamed for all this.

I there's no evidence that I did any of this Chris thinks he has evidence, but he hasn't shown it, but I'm being blamed.

So I Think that's all the stuff that we oh we can't we should mention if you're on If you're on YouTube and you want to leave us a super chat

We always read super chats. So under where you usually would leave comments. There's a little dollar sign if you click that You can you can let's see you can give a chat there and that way we will be able to Basically read your comments online.

So if you want to make sure we read your comment, that's a way of doing it Meanwhile, I have someone asking me when when does

Hey, when does politics live start my response eight minutes ago So So, let's see, let me get to some feedback we've gotten from the show

I want to read some some things. We've some feedback we've received in email

I'm not gonna give names because one of them is gonna share some personal details, but Hello.

Thank you You know, thank you. I basically I've been sending out to those who are on our email list

I've been sending out Basically just updates on what we did last year some updates not the whole thing

But but just some some things and one of them was apologetics live and so someone someone had said this

Thank you for your email letter, sir You know, they they basically said

That In response to the question statement, we had said if you have any feedback for us, let us know

And so that's what this person is saying You know the in response to The question statement above you you

Parentheses the leaders that striving for eternity on parentheses Didn't disappoint us like Ravi Zacharias and Carl Lentz did last year.

So that was good Nor are you a chronic fornicator like Charles Jenkins?

Was having an eight -year affair still claiming to be a

Christian and preacher is a little bit scandalous, lol and Your Facebook live sessions are very nice as well.

I I particularly liked one about poor pastor

James Coates and The one about the weird pastor who was hating on pastor

John and Phil Johnson and everyone it it was good to learn that that he fornicate

I think she probably means it was not good, but It's I'll read it the way it says it. It was good to learn that he fornicated with a poor

Gullible South African girl and never married her like he promised to that way.

We all know to avoid him Especially us girls. Well, yeah, he would be one to avoid because us girls can slash ladies can be gullible sometimes

Especially when it comes to love and our emotions, so thank you it seems though there are not a whole lot of Good sound biblical leaders left and the ones that are left are currently under much fire

Much media scrutiny or have fallen and it's hard to know nowadays who to believe

But so far striving for eternity seems okay. They seem solid. So that is good.

So yes Many times many thanks to you and your ministry for all you do. God bless and take care and we're gonna talk about some reasons why

You won't see I think someone is striving for eternity Falling the way

Ravi did another email that we got this one from the UK Thoroughly enjoyed this episode.

This was about episode 100 the last one that we did We got a lot of good feedback on that. A lot of people were enjoyed that I Enjoyed the the all the people we had on So this person was saying the same thoroughly enjoyed the episode very comforting to listen to I loved the camaraderie

You all had much Importantly listen to your biblical views with passion and you are so refreshing with my cup of tea in hand

I was in my element. So thank you. That's from the UK So Melissa want to ask you a question though, she wants to say how is the dinner that Matt's like it's like send me a dinner

For the record if you didn't see episode 100 you want to watch that one to see when

Matt slick door -dashed me to get me back for the fact that I had well the fact that I Have been busting on him for years.

I've even called in his radio show to embarrass him and make him have to explain That he has, you know never bought me dinner and so what

I did this week Monday is the next live show that he did I called into his live show and And I allowed him to gloat.

I thought it was fair I've called his radio show and asked him why he calls me a jerk so that he would have to explain the story of missing out every time and and Always losing on this for nine years.

He has been attempting it And so I called up his show and Because I moved from Jersey to Penn anytime.

I said Andrew from New Jersey he knew who it was but saying Andrew from Pennsylvania, I think threw him off and He wasn't quite sure and I said that the question

I had was about gifts and I just said Yes, Matt. I'd like to ask you.

Yeah, I want to ask you about gifts that are left at people's doors During live broadcasts that he started to laugh because now he knew who it was

That was calling him. And so yes, and someone else had asked earlier about How I'm feeling

I am feeling better I've been Been as I said, I think last week's been working out

Two three times a day a day Been running a lot and cut down a lot of food and been doing well

We have bills asking is there any update on pastor Coates? Yes. He has a court date that is now set

He will not be allowed out of jail unless he promises to stop preaching so he must remain in jail until the court date and Then they will decide what to do with him his church this

Sunday was had a larger gathering than ever before and so There was that he was um

You know, he was Still in prison and but the church's is grown so So I really like that.

I really like that. Dr. MacArthur got up there and Just you know, they put their full backing and support for mr.

Coats for pastor Coates I really that I did that just I was break almost broke down just Listening to that watching that I haven't yet.

I haven't seen that yet So it's on my list to watch Thomas Leo is says wow there

Andrew I believe Matt purchased a dinner for you in Ohio. It was a pizza at Pizza Hut As God is my witness.

No, no Thomas. I I don't believe you I was there you were there and you're not

Matt slick because Matt slick wasn't there So Let me get to one last feedback we have because we got to get on to our show we got some great guests backstage here

We have someone that said that in response to the effect of how striving fraternity has helped them

They said the series you did on GFC has brought immense healing from the harm this cult

Inflicted it was it has freed me to be able to trust the teaching and leadership of my current pastors and I've grown in faith and love for God and assurance of my of salvation and Appreciate the church because of this series.

I also appreciate the personal help. I received through your ministry These are the reasons

I've become a sponsor. I'll be at a minor sponsor if My circumstances change

I will increase my giving because I believe you are doing good work for God until then

I will pray for your ministry and for your health. And so we thank her for that This is someone that as many of you know, dr.

Silvestro reached out to many people and was getting a lot of Spoke to I think

I forget like a hundred hours of Interviews that he did privately

So with that I want to first bring in we want to talk about Ravi Zacharias and Oh, I gotta do one thing for someone that wants to come in.

And so I want to I want to I Want to first bring in my co -host on the rap report, but I'll heim but how are you?

Hey Good evening. How you doing? It's it's surprising to see you up so late.

You're you're an early bird. I'm doing this for you guys You're doing this because we didn't enough on the rap report

Recovering this again because bud has another way that we want to that he wants to try to tackle the this whole thing

There's so many different cans of worms with this whole Ravi Zacharias thing. Oh, yeah, really So I'm eager to hear what you guys

I mean, I really want to You know contribute as I can but I'm eager to continue this conversation.

So Very important a lot of things that we need to observe and a lot of things we can learn from this

There are and you know, one of the things to do but go ahead Justin you said you're gonna say son

No, I was actually gonna say that What you're talking about with with the Ravi Zacharias situation

It just it brings to the forefront the the issue of integrity I saw somebody post a comment up here earlier that said, you know that Ravi Zacharias has done so much harm to the church

I disagree with that All in my opinion is that Ravi Zacharias is exposing the wickedness of a world system that calls itself

Church That doesn't have accountability. They don't have authority to Stand upon the

Word of God, and they they don't know it. They don't they don't study it I mean if you've went back and look at any of the videos from Ravi Zacharias As I've watched them, they're not biblical videos

No, there's no there's not a biblical component to it he goes to the what was the

Mormon tabernacle, I believe it was and And spends days there and doesn't even come out with the gospel.

Yes well, I mean this is something that Bud and I mentioned on our show is that You know

Ravi was a philosopher and not yeah, not a Christian apologist but what

I want to do is We want to address one thing is this letter

So You know that and for that reason I want to bring in We don't have dr.

Silvestro here, but we have someone who used to be on the board at striving fraternity. I want to bring in Soon to be dr.

He's just got finished with paper that's it it's a small little paper Yeah, it's only a hundred pages

Looked at the year now Modeled my beard by the way, I've modeled my beard after Frank Mullis every time

I go online and I see those pictures I'm just like Not the hair but the beard yeah,

I modeled my hair I guess after Bud's I What's that iconography you've got behind you there is that actually

Christians okay for you to have that I'm at a museum Spots I'm actually at an art museum

The only place I could get no This is a painting that one of my former jiu -jitsu students

One of my former jiu -jitsu students left my martial arts school his is all of his stuff left in his storage unit and so this painting was in there and so I needed a background for what

I do on my WebEx stuff. So let's take it I'm assuming is Cinderella.

That's that's my assumption is the Cinderella. I'm not exactly sure Exactly what it is

But it looks good to be hanging in a martial arts studio. Well, I mean

Frank That's the funny part of it for this broadcast. It adds quite a level of sophistication.

That is woefully We have another guest who just the horse the horse look the horse in the back.

Yeah Yeah, pastor Justin has the horse it's better than what he had last week where like he was in the prison cell

So we have a look you gotta bring my brother in I'm Trying I'm trying but you know, he's he's a little bit slow, you know

I mean look it does take this guy three hours just get dressed in the morning Alright, so we you know, he may be slow getting in here.

It only took him what 23 minutes to get in This is what he does. So let's let's bring in.

Oh, there he is. Mr. Justin Peters. All right Hey guys

Justin are you doing brother? But I'm doing well and you have been on my list to call for a long time.

I'm sorry I've got to do it, huh? I've found penance elsewhere.

So I've been absolved. Don't worry. No problem I'd send him a text and I'm always afraid to call him.

I know he's busy Justin busy never

I Just can't wait till we see each other in Israel, that's gonna be fun. Yes.

I'm excited about that. I'm looking forward to that Just wanted to point it out here that we have room and for anybody that wants to come on and join us

I'm excited about it. I'm looking forward to it Do we have the banner the banner for that I don't see the banner

All right, so well the place to go for the Israel trip is just go to Israel tour 2021 calm

Israel tour 2021 calm So what we want to do tonight is talk about this situation with Ravi Zacharias.

I Know many you guys have there it is, you know, you put it up for a second Justin likes to put these things up the banners up for like one second for you guys to you know, see

So Israel tour 2021 calm Ravi Zachariah Now one of the things

There's two things Frank that I want to address with you with your your expertise

You know, they're the Board of Directors of RZ I am Had come out with a letter and you know,

I don't know if everyone here got to read the the the board letter. I mean immediately after Yeah, there was there was a separate there was a separate basically open letter from the board of Ravi Zacharias ministries and They basically

I'm gonna just I'm gonna put the link in comment to you and then we'll put it up right there.

So Yeah, so if you go here, you know, dr.

Svester and I read this and the very first thing That when after reading it

I Dr. Svester and I were talking and the there's the first thing I said was missing from this now this this letter if you end up reading this is

It's got a lot of things that seem to be what you'd want to hear. They they took responsibility they said that they

For that for not believing Laurie Anne Thompson who was the first one in 2007 to make an accusation against Ravi They basically made the statement that they were wrong though it was what

Ravi did was sinful All of these different things which sounds good But there was one thing one thing that I thought was missing from this and when

I mentioned it Anthony said the same exact thing What was missing from this apology letter from the board of RZ?

I am was their resignation That's what repentance would have looked like Because because I really think that the fact that they attacked

Laurie Anne Thompson that they said they believed Ravi that they said they did a thorough investigation, which they now say they didn't

Means that they must have been lying before and so You have a case where I think they the right thing for them to have done was to resign

Justin there's something with your feed you're breaking up your video stopped.

So, okay. He's gonna probably work on that And he's back

Your your video looks like low quality, but so I don't know if you're having problems over there

If you can hear me, I was just gonna say, you know what when you come to repentance There should be a broken heart of contrition and a full opening of your sinfulness,

I mean I When I read that I saw I saw the same thing. We're gonna bandage this.

We're gonna band -aid this We're gonna make it look good. We're gonna say the right things then we're gonna carry on with our ministry

Okay, this has always been your ministry. Anyway, it's not God's ministry. I mean if it was Where's that broken heart of repentance, you know?

Yeah, it's offensive It's offensive it's because not, you know, not just to me personally, but I think it should be offensive to every biblical

Christian Because there are criteria for be ye holy for I am holy You know

The Bible tells us that all of our act and behavior should be that of one striving for holiness

And when you fail that so miserably I think

You know what I see there is is a is a lack of love and care for for God and for his holiness

It's a I don't care about slandering the name of my Lord and Savior as long as I can keep my ministry

And yeah, I just I know I have strong opinions on this but it's it's very offensive, you know as you look at Well, one of the first things

I want to address is the the board of directors now I'm glad that Frank was able to make it since dr.

Special couldn't you know Frank you were you were on the board when we made certain policies and you'll remember these but you know

What Anthony wanted to bring out is there's there's certain reasons that something like this It's not that it can't happen at striving fraternity

But there's a lot of things we have in place Robbie had this thing in place If you listen to the rap report or I did

I go through this if you read the documents you'll see What he had in place is that no one traveled no you didn't have

Ravi never traveled without a male with him and That may be true but that policy had easy ways around it like the fact that he traveled with a masseuse and When he didn't travel with a masseuse he got to a hotel and had a masseuse come in and When you read the article and some of the things that he had done

You know, he would get a massage and be completely naked and pull the covers off so that the women could see him and You know

He would attempt to be touching them and things like that. So I'm sure he would do this in in hotels alone with these

Massage therapists that he would call to his room. So even though there were some some things that he had

He had set up to as you know a

Protection. He also made ways that he could get around it and you know

Frank you you'd remember we you know we used to have a young lady who would travel from New York to the events with us because she'd run our table and The board decided, you know, it's just we we'd fly out of the same same airport same flights because it made sense

And you guys said no, you know what we should have a policy That now we it's driving free.

We don't allow men and women that are not related to travel together

In fact, we don't even allow them to be in the airport together at the same time

We have them come in at different times, even though that may be harder when we land It's because you have two people to pick up but if we're in that situation, we no longer do that So we've set things like that up We we've set policies up to prevent it the the other thing

That we do and Frank you you remember when you interviewed for the board I had told you we take accountability serious and I don't know if you remember this

But the after your interview the board the next day your interview is about an hour long 45 minutes of it was

Guys asking you questions of okay If you saw Andrew doing this or if you'd saw that like would you correct this would you curl?

What would you do in this situation that situation and remember you call me the next day going you guys are really serious account back at ability

And I was like, yeah, so I mean from your experience on the board What kind of things did you do you see that we need to we needed to set in place to prevent things that like what?

Happened to Ravi. Well, I mean part of the

I think part of the issue is is that the more more famous that a pastor gets

The more people become afraid of him and you know in reading the report that Zacharias ministry from the independent

Firm that did the report is that he would anytime someone would try to correct that he would lash out at them

And probably threatened them and they were probably worried for their job. And so, you know

They're you know anger does a lot to to back people down Especially powerful people.

I mean in and again, you're calling into question Ravi Zacharias You know, so part of the issue is the more famous the pastor gets

The the harder it is to keep him in check because pride comes before a fall

No, haughty spirit, right? And so I think that's part of the part of the issue here With the board members and his staff that called him into question and I was reading that multiple times he got extremely angry

And then he would not speak to that staff member. And so you you're wondering okay, am

I wrong? I'm right I mean, that's the problem with Secret sin is that it's it's a secret.

So you you don't always see it I mean, that's part of the whole process with grooming and sex offenders.

Is that the grooming is not just of the victim He's grooming everybody. He grew that board. I'm quite sure that he groomed that board and How dare you called into question?

My integrity is probably no telling how many times that that Conversation probably went to back and forth

As just my assumption, but I know that's how grooming works is you don't just groom the victim you groom everybody else around So no one would even question that and obviously when he's integrity was questioned.

He became quite angry Well, yeah And I want to I want to talk in much more detail about the grooming because this is one of the areas that you know

You're an expert in this field, unfortunately Folks who don't know pastor mollis has the the he does he also works as a counselor for sex offenders and so, you know, he

Has hundreds of sex offenders he talks to every week It's it is it is son He's always said that he has guys that if they don't show up to talk to him, they go back to jail.

So But I want to talk about grooming in a bit you have more you wanna say you have anything else you wanna say

So I want to ask Justin since you came in. I know you've been following this You know,

I I look at this and I I know that This is grievous to see but I want us to see what are your thoughts

With this whole situation with Ravi with the board with the you know, what's come to light?

Anything you want to talk about? Yeah, I mean It became public knowledge three years ago,

February 18th 18th February 2018 uh that the but that these um sexting messages

Between Ravi and this other woman and I can't even remember a name off the top of my head. But uh, Laurie Thompson.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, uh This was made public three years ago and I am astonished that Ravi somehow managed to fly in under the radar for so long

And was speaking at big conferences with some well -known names uh

All the way up till shortly before his death and there was a I mean that We had hard knowledge three years ago that this was going on not to the extent

Now we didn't know at the time at least I didn't we didn't know at the time that it was as widespread

I mean when you read this report, it's just uh, it's shocking what all this this man was doing but uh

But this is nothing new. I mean so many people are acting surprised about this. I'm like, well, why are why are we so surprised?

This has been known for three years now uh And and I take there's no way

There is no way that At least some of the people on the board or on staff

With at RZIM did not know that at least some of this was going on. There's just no way it's impossible

You could not have not known something was wrong um and I tell you

Ravi RZIM needs to shut down Period it needs to be burned to the ground

It it there is no redeeming it there is um, and i've had a few people contact me

Well, can I you know, yeah, he was doing a lot of bad stuff, but you know Some of his teaching is still good. Can I agree?

I mean, can I uh, um, can I still share his books and stuff? No, this man has brought so much reproach on the gospel so much reproach on christ

There's nothing redeeming about it. If if you can't live by the gospel that you preach and teach then you've got then there's

There there is nothing redeeming With the content Burn it

Get the books off the shelves shut the ministry down. Don't just change the name and rebrand it. I mean

Bulldoze it this bulldoze. There's nothing redeeming here. They're there um, this has brought untold reproach on the gospel and You know and ravi i've never been a fan of ravi i've uh, he was always very mystical and philosophical

You never really heard at least I didn't Heard him deal with any of the of the of the text

You know, I he was I would not characterize him as a theologian by any stretch A philosopher maybe but not a not a theologian um, and he had very little if any church activity um,

I mean he he traveled constantly i'm an evangelist. I mean I do I'm not i'm not a philosopher like he is but I I travel and preach and teach

I intentionally limit The amount of time that i'm on the road because I don't want to be gone all the time.

It's not healthy I want accountability. I want to be a part Of the life of my home church.

I want my home church to know what i'm doing uh, and and so there's there's a big red flag with With anyone who is on the road?

Constantly and never at their home church. It's just not there's that's not healthy on any level

Well, yeah that you know, that's something that uh You know struggling for turning early on we we changed

So that I wasn't on the road all the time For that very reason the accountability we we have the policy we have to be in our local church at least half the year

You know, whether it's two weekends a month or whatever, but we we need that local accountability

Yeah, you know and and this is one area where you see a lot of guys uh fail because they they

Just go on the road and they get the pats on the back and and everyone looks up to them and no one wants to be The one to say anything.

It's like it's like what you know, frank said he grooms the the people around the victims as well

Um, one of the things that surprises me and you mentioned how the board couldn't possibly know. Well, the thing that gets me is that The board contained his wife and daughter

So you're going to tell me I mean just put put an understanding here. So your wife is on the board

There's an accusation that you have been sending naked pictures of yourself to a woman and receiving naked pictures and and asking her for them and And then other things that ended up happening between you and this woman and you're going to tell me a wife

Is hearing this And just going to defend her husband I just I just find that a little bit hard to believe

Now frank you had an interesting take on this when you and I were talking about it About this just being hey, well, this is the way, you know, it is in india multiple wives and things like that um, and that's almost what he did end up saying because he said that he

Said to one of the women. Hey, you know in the old testament men of god had multiple wives

You know But I don't know if you wanted to address address that that what you had said to me with that at all or Yeah, I was just curious, you know this cultural thing but you know again

Stand by your man is you know an old, uh country song, you know, um, and Denial I mean look i've dealt with you know sexual

Sin and impropriety with multiple people, I mean over a thousand and i've sat and listened to wives, uh who

Have stuck it out and just seen just Confronting, uh confronting them cheating on their wives and the wives spirits are broken, you know

And um, and then I know my husband would never do such terrible things. So it's not it's not just you know

It's one thing to say. I can't believe I i'm not surprised that That that she was probably in denial of the whole thing as well because he just I mean and again you know,

I I Ravi zacharias, you know, I again I heard him on the radio

Uh didn't agree with him on on the theologically, you know, I listened to him philosophically.

I thought he had some good stuff philosophically but um but uh again, i'm

It surprised me You know, I mean because I hadn't followed him in years per se But it was surprising that sexual sin was was his downfall

You know, I mean that's that's one of the things as you assume that certain people

Um, that's the I mean because i'll be honest the sexual sin is the easiest one for everybody to fall into Uh, maybe that's maybe that's why um

That um, I was I was kind of surprised maybe Because you thought you know, there's there's a lot of pastors

That don't fall into sexual sin that fall into financial you got the financial stuff that they fall into And you know,

I just I just didn't assume You know zacharias was going to go down like that But if you had told me he had a traveling masseuse

If you had told me he had a traveling masseuse, if I'd known he had a traveling masseuse with him, I would have said

Yeah, i'm pretty sure Was this a traveling masseuse was this a is this a man or a woman a woman

Yeah If you would have told me a traveling masseuse and it was a woman

I would have go are you kidding me You know, you know, could you imagine striving for eternity boarded andrew comes?

If we would have said yeah male You know You have a man and we're gonna pick and we're gonna pick him out

Yeah, i'm gonna pick him out for you. No, we we would him out His name is butch.

Um name is good. I had a 640 pounds I've got a master friend bring in let me bring in real quick.

Dr. Silvestro Who's here? Hey, brother. Okay Hello anthony

Oh Anthony has the easiest equipment in the world to use for podcasting, but he can never figure it out.

It's amazing Are you there anthony? No, look look at the look

Oh, we can hear you No, that's good when he right Can you hear us anthony?

Hi This is this is what we go through usually for folks who don't know we usually start about half an hour before the show

I'm here. I'm good He's setting it up All right

So anthony we frank was just talking about what would be the reaction at striving fraternity board

If uh, I said that I I wanted a a female masseuse to travel with us To different places because I have back problems.

How would how would that go over with you guys? Well, you know what I think I think there's a real life scenario that we can talk about because because frank and I Dealt with this, right?

Yeah, we mentioned that Yeah, so, you know So we we dealt with that and I thought we dealt with that in a uh an expedient manner, right?

We we said this didn't look right. There was no impropriety in your part no propriety in anybody's part But we said, you know, it doesn't look right and we're not going to have even an image of something

Looking incorrect to the outside world And uh, and you know what? You uh, you listened and then we moved on My biggest issue with with with uh, rabi zacharis, uh international ministry is is this issue?

People knew stuff was going on people knew Within the ministry and nobody said a word at least as far as we can tell

And and so I I look at this as uh as people who were complicit in what had happened

With with these females. I see pastor justin shaking his head. They were complicit. They're they're part of the problem with all this stuff so, you know,

I I as far as i'm concerned the entire ministry needs to disappear and go away and they need to donate all of the money

That they have to justin peter's ministry Yeah, just The same thing except for that last part

He's he's saying do not put that money anywhere near me So One of the things bud and I talked about was the fact that people who donated to this ministry

The devil had the money long enough, let's get Let's give it to something for good.

Yeah well, the thing the thing that I Bud and I had addressed was the fact that what you end up seeing is people donating money for ministry and And this money was going toward Funding condos that he shared with masseuses like When he when he'd be writing he went to I think it was bangladesh.

I forget but where it was He went there and like 256 days. He was there one year

And writing but in the same condo He bought a he bought two the ministry paid for two condos one for him and one for the masseuse that he would have.

Yeah Now am I right $4 ,000 of the ministries

I'm, sorry, right that uh, I apologize. I didn't mean to jump over there frank. Um The masseuse the lady she's the one that labeled the the rape charge.

Am I right? One of them he had several multiple masseuses Yeah So what he did was there were at least

There's multiple masseuses There's at least three that he brought Over to america

So and and frank, this is where i'm going to want to get from you the grooming because it was interesting I want you to lay out how that works because what we saw was three of them

They came to he he you know, he got them the visas under rzims

Humanitarian effort. That's how they came to the states Paid for housing paid, you know gave financially supported them they ended up working at a massage parlor where He was a partial owner

And his daughter was the director and In this massage parlor, he would make advances on them

Now once you know, they they said that once he was they were here in the states and financially being supported by him

Then sex was required And so I mean they're here like who are they going to complain to at work?

The owner is the one doing the action. The director is his daughter

And if they you know now they're being supported here in america by this guy and You know, some of the women said that they felt like they they were obligated to do this because of all he had done so Frank one of the things

I see in this is this whole issue of grooming. We've brought it up a number of times There's a lot of people who are not familiar with grooming how to spot it.

Um How to you know how to what to look for how to protect themselves and others

Many people think in their church, they're okay because they do background checks Maybe you could talk about why background checks are not really helpful and why it's more important to Be looking for grooming techniques and how what to look for Yeah, I mean first of all, um, you can probably run a background check on You know any anybody going into the ministry and you're just going to come back clean anyway, um, and you know most people uh

Unfortunately get passed around from church to church. I mean, um I I know multiple situations where churches just you know,

I mean Straight out cover it up and they get passed on to the next um

Next church or wherever it may be uh, even if there were allegations that church is afraid that whether i'm going to get sued or Nothing came of it or maybe it wasn't even um

Nothing legal in it, you know, it was a fair or something um, and so Your your background checks generally are not going to work now.

Sometimes they do um, but in general you know, you're going to trust

I mean that's the number one thing is trust they're going to build your trust and you're not going to trust, um

Uh, you're not going to trust a stranger, right but you're going to trust a friend and That's what they're going to become they're going to move in they're going to groom the parents as much as the kids and they are going to um

Be there do there, um, whatever they can for you They're gonna they're going to you know, perfect example is you know, giving you money giving you gifts um

And or being a power position, um to where you are now worried about your job uh, you you or You know, they've done some kind of favor that you know, you can't you know,

I can't I can't do this It's it's a building of that trust over and over um to where You start to you see things and and that's part of the problem andrew

Uh is that you see you see things? but your mind's playing tricks on you because you're saying now that can't be what it is because He's not

I know he wouldn't do that or you miss it because of Um, I I had um early on back in the uh 80s 89 so forth

I had a uh friend who was a Uh karate instructor. Uh, we were under the same. Um, uh karate school at the time and he had opened up a karate school

And he was doing some weird things. Um, but I could not understand I didn't get it at the time and then looking back

Uh, he ended up and was molesting his karate students, uh kids in his karate school and um

If I had known what I did now, I was gonna oh, okay, but but that and that's what happens a lot of times is

Oh robbie. Zachary has got a back problem Um, he's on the road all the time um

Why not have a massage therapist instead of him going out to other massage parlors?

um, and You know, i'm sure that that masseuse was known by the people on the board I'm sure that that you know his wife and that the the massage so they trusted her too.

It's not it's not like Um, you know, he was getting a new massage therapist quote -unquote to travel with him

Um, but he's going to massage parlors on the side of that too. So it's not from what I was reading

It's not just that one masseuse that traveled with him. He he was seeing multiple masseuses

No, frank, if if you could explain we talk about grooming, right? Even with like children and things like that uh

We see you mentioned the board was groomed as much as the women were groomed and we see this with children where the parents are groomed as much as The children are they they prepare the parents they talk to the parents in such a way to You know to build the trust that the parents would never think that this person is ever doing this

That's the whole thing of grooming is to build it where You trust the person

And that's exactly what happened with ravi. Zacharias with his board Right his board when this came out

They believed his account his story because they knew him and they they just couldn't believe this would ever happen

What are some of the ways? That grooming occurs that um, like what is it that people are trying to accomplish

Um with when it comes to grooming Okay, so um, let's if you

All right. So let's put it in in two parts. Let's let's talk about children Um, how do you get your children to do what you want them to do you give them gifts?

right Um, you take them places that they enjoy um, you introduce them to um sexual things slowly

Uh, you talk you have sexual conversations um About them you maybe tell inappropriate jokes sexual jokes to them and you introduce them slowly, but you're also rewarding them

Um when you start talking to them about sexual Uh type things that's young children um and Teenagers, here's the thing teenagers.

It's the same way you you Uh, when you met your wife, you're doing the same thing

That um, you would do to meet your wife. You're gonna give them uh gifts, uh, you buy them jewelry you buy them flowers you

Uh, take them, you know places in your in a nice car, uh for teenagers you let them drive your car

Um, you offer them alcohol you offer them drugs um teenagers, you know, and again teenagers understand sex, uh, and you know, obviously

If it's a female grooming male, that's extremely easy to groom a teenage boy

Uh into sex, you know teenage girls Um again, it's a slow introduction

But again predators are already going to pick a female who's probably already been sexually abused

Um because they know what's vulnerable and so they they see that as a vulnerability, uh to um

Engage themselves into the lives of children who are vulnerable already

That's that's part of the idea. Um You know and and again

The grooming of the parents as you're showing up with the parents you're you're offering to babysit, you know

Helping them out in times of need Um, you take an interest in their kids um, you know, and again, that's why

Perpetrators end up in the boy scouts. They end up in the in the youth ministry. They end up In the pastorate they they end up in every walk of life karate instructors

I can tell you Uh over the years i've counseled probably 25 to 30

Um people involved in the ministry who were convicted sex offenders and every and and they they were directly related

Uh to the church or some type of ministry, uh when they were arrested um, and so again, you know, um

The the grooming of what ravi zacharias is doing is obviously he was using Women who probably were that he was bringing over from countries offering them money

Uh from third world countries, that's the easiest way to groom them Uh is just offering them a life outside of a third world country into america

Yeah, and I think that is You know as one was saying someone had put up a thing, uh comment here saying that they hope no one is learning how to groom someone from this

But we want you to recognize how to recognize it so that you could protect yourself because this

The best way to prevent grooming abuse is to recognize grooming And and again

Go ahead I apologize. Uh, I was just gonna say one thing i'll say on this is the problem that in the church that is found is

There is a lack of understanding within the body of christ, especially within pastoral ministry and the leadership ministry of Of how it is that you you should?

Uh train Train your congregation train your leadership to to see and identify sexual predators

We we don't want to see that there are people that are coming in And that their desire is to harm our children

Their desire is to is to harm our wives and our husbands and and that they're they they ultimately want to destroy the body of christ

In the ultimate goal now, it may just be that they want to go after these children But that is the body of christ

And so as as a pastor and as a leader It is incumbent upon me what frank is doing is not being a bad person

By stating what's going on. I I was a police officer for eight years and I'm going to tell you

What what he's talking about? I went through this training, you know to learn to identify The predators you don't know how easy it is

Uh for a con artist to even con a police officer um and corrections, uh, we had it we had it all the time drummed into us that Oftentimes you're being lied to and manipulated to find the emotional edge that that The the criminal the the sexual immoral the pedophile the the the wicked person can get on you

And if he can get that one thing to ingratiate himself to you He will destroy you before you even knew what was happening

And and and i'm just going to say what frank is talking about is necessary for the body of christ to know

So that we can stand against the wickedness So that we can understand what it is that they're doing and how they do it to protect our children our families our churches

And so nobody can ever say to to us that we were

In hindsight at the end of our lives after we died Nobody can say you know what?

They looked so good, but they've destroyed the body of christ the name of christ I mean, I would never want it to be said that that andrew or justin or anyone

After their ministry was over and they had finished that last step into eternity They'll turn around and find out

That they had lied all this time and they stand before their lord as being judged Let's do the judgment now

Let's do that hard thing now And let me let me throw a question that's in the chat over to probably frank, but rob, julie miller,

I don't know if it's rob or julie that's asking the question, but they say is there a Is there a readily available or reliable resource for parents that would educate them on recognizing grooming?

Do you know of any resources offhand? This is for anyone

It's been a it's been a little while you you justin may know Let me tell you this, okay, just everybody that ever hear this

Go to your local sheriff's department Every one of them has an agency or a part in in the sheriff's departments that they love to teach

They love to teach their the their communities how to protect their children They'll go to churches.

They'll go to home bible study groups They'll go anywhere they can and they have the resources

They deal with this 24 7 And i'm going to tell you go go to the sheriff's department They have the resources and the tools to help you identify

And create a program to deal with this Um, I would suggest that quickly

Okay, so so let me let me change gears and uh, but i'm going to throw this over to you um

You've been reading a bunch of the materials here. You you have some different angles you see with this

You and I address this from the spiritual abuse Angle on the rap report some other angles

What are your thoughts on this whole thing with robbie? Well, I mean I have a number of other things that maybe we can get to but I think

I want to summarize kind of What we've discussed that frank's talked about that justin peters and pastor justin have talked about In that you see this situation

Where an individual has built somewhat of a celebrity empire there is a board of directors who is financially

Reliant on that empire it is built around this individual that individual turns out to be

Lacking in integrity Just a few things. I mean you you deal with the issue of respect respect is earned

Now as christians we want to think the best we want to believe the best and hope the best But that does not mean that all our guards go down and in this case as you read the documentation that you posted from our show uh last week

You can see the guards weren't there. It wasn't there with the um With the board members and certainly with these ladies who had been groomed

Uh financially they're provided for then the obligation once that was put in place to request sex

Uh, then that took place one of the other things that you notice as you read through this is that there is sort of the equivalency of your allegiance to the celebrity

Reflects your allegiance to christ And if you see that that is a warning sign

You you need to run your allegiance to any individual in a ministerial standpoint

Only obligates you to support them so far as they follow christ. Does that know what paul told us?

But when they start telling you if you violate my confidence with you you're violating Confidence with christ.

That's a that's a huge issue and you see that in the documentation that we've we've got from uh, from this investigation um

There was a whole culture of fear. There was a culture of shame not on the part of ravi but fear in The people that he was manipulating the people that relied on him for an income

And certainly the victims of his abuse both spiritually and uh, physically and the shame was being pushed on them

Well, the shame was his it was not theirs. They're the victims Now the board is a different issue because they should have had oversight um and you back up from that a little bit even more and you see that We don't even have a church

Involved in this his denomination as justin peters mentioned, you know We knew some rumblings of this a few years ago and the denomination kind of said they looked at it

Oh, there's nothing there. We'll let it go um You know, this has just been a perfect storm but from another standpoint

Andrew you and I talked about what? uh Dr. MacArthur mentioned last friday,

I think in the master's university um Chapel service that I absolutely agree with this is a

As horrible as it is we feel for the family we feel for these people affected by it We certainly feel for the victims.

We should be praying for them But on the flip side of that, this is a glorious thing. The lord is clarifying.

He is bringing this out. He is showing us There is a false church And there is a true church

True church is going to exhibit the things that we see in scripture reflect

Godliness and holiness righteousness and the pursuit of christ in a lifestyle um, it is not um

And if it is absent, that's that's a big sign. It's a big blue I'll be quiet now

Yes The I think the thing though there's a let me put this up so people can know about this, uh deep deep dive discipleship

Said when someone asked about resources on guard by deep pak Raju is a resource that he said he had to read as a sunday school teacher

Uh, he's on staff at capitol hill baptist church in bc.

That's remarked ever served Uh, we'll get we'll say good morning to lorraine to lorraine is from the philippines.

She's just catching up with us So we thank you. Um You know, one of the things justin that I see with this that is um

Concerning to me Is the fact that we see so many people that just turned a blind eye

That you know, even if they're if they saw something they You know, maybe maybe it's just me or or just trusting ravi

As someone who is in full -time ministry you travel What is the danger?

of you know Not having people Like basically having a bunch of yes men around you.

What's I mean? What's the danger of not having people around you? That are willing to keep you accountable

Yeah, it's a there's a tremendous danger there of I mean

I for one want accountability. I want to be Above board. I want to be above reproach.

I I I would rather die Honestly, I would rather drop dead before this program is over Before I do anything to bring reproach on the name of christ or his gospel

Uh, and so the the very fact that uh that ravi did not surround himself with meaningful accountability

Uh speaks volumes about the state of his heart and the state of his soul. Um so I I mean

Yeah Accountability is important very vitally important and and he had none.

He had no meaningful accountability I mean, I honestly just in listening to y 'all talk if if I if I even

I I can't even imagine doing this but just for Kicks and giggles if I were to go to my board of directors both of whom are pastors

And say, um, hey guys, you know, i'm the cerebral palsy things just uh kind of hard to live with and I I really need a female masseuse to travel with me when

I go on my trips they would They would probably shut the ministry down before they even gave me a response

I mean like are you kidding me Like what what that's why

I say there's no way they the the staff Did not know what's going on?

But here let's let's flip the let's flip the script and and I want to play devil's advocate here but but listen, you said you told him that you need, you know, your your symptoms have gotten worse and you needed to have a physical therapist to travel um, you know and and what i'm saying is is that um

You're going to you're going to put feelers out That's the thing about sexual predators.

They're not going to they're they're cunning. I mean the devil's cunning and so That's the issue is if you had a physical therapist, you know, and again

Um, it could have been male. He could have had a male masseuse and we found out that ravi was a homosexual

And nobody would have questioned a male masseuse So let's go the opposite way um

And and you know again i'm not saying the board didn't know but what i'm saying is they they were in denial, um

Of of a lot of this and that's what i'm saying. It's not you know, it's easy hindsight's 2020 um, you know, and I what

I would say and argue is is that ravi Had been doing this all a lot longer than we know

Um, you know even going back I'm willing to bet and and the you know, it was a 13 -page report and they said they only talked to one person

The guy had multiple cell phones um Multiple cell phones multiple i'm sure multiple different books of people's names even have phrases

Uh his cell phone that could even if he couldn't speak the language he could give the phrase yeah, um to that um

Frank explain some of the phrases that he wanted to know

If you if you know nine, it's on page nine Some of the phrases he would have that he memorized in multiple languages were go lower

You know, so he's getting a massage So so you see he wanted to be able to in these different languages communicate to to these

Thai and mandarin. Yeah, let me uh, Let me let me just I want to read one scripture and one

And then I want to read something from the report because You know,

I I think as we're doing discernment and One of the things i've heard a lot

Since the podcast my rapper for podcast the part that I did on this issue people were like hey, he died

Just give it a rest Like why are you discussing it now? Like it's over and they just they want to give a pass um for for what went on Now what you're not hearing with any of the six of us so far tonight is rejoicing

Okay, there are discernment bloggers that rejoice at things like this because oh they get someone they can go after you don't hear

Rejoicing and you shouldn't from a good discernment blogger or discernment ministry

This is what paul says in philippians chapter 3 verse 17 the the main verses is 18, but brethren

Join in following my example and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us

For many walk of whom i've often told you and now tell you even weeping

That they are enemies of the cross of christ. Now. This is the difference that you see with real

Good discernment ministries and some of the others It's that phrase even weeping

You're hearing it in the voice of some of the guys. You're seeing it on justin's face. He can't hide it as he's hearing things um

It's it's it's painful For someone who loves christ to listen to this stuff and have to bring this to you

I want to i'm going to read one thing. I want you guys to interact with this is from the the investigation that was done and And out of the whole thing this one paragraph is the one that bothers me the most because what it reflects in here is how

For some people who still want to give robbie zacharias a pass What I see here is beyond the grooming.

We're going to see some of that in this where he puts the responsibility on the woman Who are not saying anything because people's souls are at stake, but I want you to see how robbie used um his own uh

Used religion as the means to groom people And and then used it as a way of basically, you know, not only silencing them but how he used religion

To to get greater control Okay But i'm gonna i'm gonna mute you because you're you're old school and you have all the papers there so We're here

Uh, so here so this is what from from um You know from the investigation quote

This witness told us that their relationship began as a normal massage therapist client relationship and she came to think of him

As a father figure he elicited information about her faith and her financial situation

She reported that after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support

He required sex from her according to the witness. Mr. Zacharias used religious expressions to gain compliance

As she was raised to be a person of faith She reported that he made her pray

With him to thank god for the quote opportunity unquote They both received

She said he called her his quote reward unquote for living a life of service god and Reference that the quote godly men unquote in the bible with many uh

In the bible with many than one with more than one wife She said she warned

Uh, she said he warned her not even not ever to speak against him or she she

Would be responsible for the quote millions of souls unquote whose salvation would be lost

If his reputation was damaged What do you guys think about that? Who wants to go first?

You know Let me say this first I I think what bugs me most about this is that Ravi has passed away and can't answer for this stuff true, right and that's a major issue because Because we don't know the certain truth

Now there's a lot of similarities between all these stories that we're reading about Ravi and i'm sure that there is a major Major issues that have happened.

I really wish we could hear Ravi And this is why I keep going back to the issue of the ministry

They knew back in 2015 with with the uh, the lawsuit that they had sealed

And uh, she got a settlement for and nothing was ever changed within the ministry So in what you said andrew, it's horrific.

If that's all true. It's horrific And uh, i'm sure that most of it is if not all of it is true um,

I just I just I can't We do know some of his response though And he responded in 2017 and his response for folks who don't know that response right when when lori thompson came out explaining details

The response was he actually came up with a story and said that the husband had put the wife up to Tempting him and trying to elicit sex from him so that they could try to sue him for money

And and so he he basically drove a wedge in their marriage got and then he went on on you know christianity today and all these other places saying that the the husband

Mastermind this whole thing and then pimped his wife To try to trap him.

So we do know now that we know that you know That that that story was was accurate with there's confirmation with the other stories

You we do know how he responded to it it was to To ignore and attack the the person that's trying to bring truth to light.

Yeah, so I would agree with you there Yeah, so i'll say it's one thing we'll write to frank it's

I still go back then to the ministry Where was the ministry in all this stuff? It's really convenient for the ministry to step back and say well, you know what?

We got to do private investigation. Now. We have to do this. We have to do this You know what you guys should all resign be done and that's it

Because they've they've had plenty of chances for all this So i'm, sorry go on frank no, no,

I i'm I you know going going back. Um, I kind of lost my my train of thought and i'll try if I pick up here um the issue with the women that uh was in In that he's picking again is not

It's not like he was picking the average, you know, christian woman, right? Right. Um, he's he's he's he's picking women who are vulnerable

And so that that's part of the situation but part of the don't tell um

It's it's it's crazy to me that he's using The guilt game as we call it.

It's the same, you know 90 Percent of the perpetrators i've dealt with who who deal with kids is um, if you share our secret

Because that's a cover -up um Your mother seems to be heard. They won't let me see you again.

I'll go to jail Um, you're the one that's responsible for this and notice he put the blame on them

He's not only sexually abusing them, but he's spiritually using them now, too um and And you know y 'all dealt with spiritual abuse on several uh episodes, uh, whether he was into sexual or not spiritual abuse, um

Is is just as devastating. So in this context he's using not only um uh sexual abuse, but Spiritual abuse to get them to comply and again

How much does ravi zacharias? um in his mind at the time

Believe and rationalize what he did. This is one of the questions I always ask is

Which one is the real ravi zacharias? Is it ravi zacharias that we hear and see and everybody trusts and believes?

Or is it the the the the sexual abuser? behind the scenes

Um that we don't know And you have two different people Um the world that sees ravi zacharias and then you see these women

Who are seeing man this guy? He's this famous preacher And he's giving me spiritual advice and he's he's

He's wanting the sexuality Um, and then you have the board members who are seeing glimpses of both

But they're seeing more of the ravi, you know that public sees and the glimpses of the other

And you know, how much of that do we want to believe Um How much how much do you want to believe how much if we take scripture and say thinks no evil

Right. Yeah um in that in that kind of circumstance when we we uh friend, you know a friend at all times so here ravi zacharias has

People who have known him all their life And they're having to try to skate and go through all this and see okay

What what's it here? And my question to y 'all is When the me too movement came out how how many of us?

Bought into the me too movement all the way in When this first came out a lot of people said man, she's just me too and ravi

And you know and and so i'm just saying it's easy for a lot of people to go and look back and say um

Well, you know now of course, but at the time it's ravi zacharias and you're you're going what's true who's true

Why should I believe this woman of ravi zacharias? and you know and I would say

What's that Because he's a celebrity. I mean, he's got that status. Yeah No, that's that's what i'm saying, you know again if some woman came out and and accused any of y 'all

You know, I might say hey what's going on here and you deny it say frank, um,

I don't even know what you're talking about I'm gonna side with you You're my friend.

I'm gonna side with you before that now as more evidence comes into light and i've had a similar situation and um anthony and um um

Andrew both know a situation that happened with me with a pastor friend of mine and I was

I sided with him early on But as the evidence mounted and I went to him and I told him

I said I have your back Until I find out you lied to me when

I find out you lied to me I'm going to i'm going to understand i'm going to go And i'm going to make sure you're not in the ministry anymore and And he lied and so that was it

Um And I told him I told him from the very beginning Um, don't lie to me if you if you're you're telling me the truth that this did not happen i'll have your back

Because you've been my friend for 20 years Yeah, right But the evidence mounted and kept mounting and I I had multiple people

And that he lied and so how can you stand with as the evidence mounts and I get why they probably stood

Robbie early on Because I would have if I if it had been Andrew and I was on the board I would have stood with Andrew early on until more and more evidence started coming out and then

I can You know wait the lies of what Andrew told me versus what truth is coming out.

I mean and that's how you have to discern it I think it's just me personally Yeah, so frank, so I guess that's the question right is the the initial thing that is at least publicizes in 2015

The settlement and and ravi, um Speaking out against her and her husband was in 2017

But in the meantime, he's traveling with masseuses He's he's he's invested in massage parlors like all this stuff is going on in the meantime

Should that have caused enough questions to be asked? itself well again um

I had massages I agree, right? Well, I I know and and and you know, and You know,

I mean I could say, you know again um, you know, I I understand

I get I get how um early on if It starts you start to question at some point you question because what

I find is is that The truth is eventually going to slowly come out and you're going to have lied

Uh, and the lies are not going to match what the more and more truth comes out, but you can't cover it up Be sure your sin will find you out

Um, it's going it's going to eventually come out if you if you don't deal with it Let me ask this question something bud uh brought up on the show and i'm sure justin might want to You know to address as well people are saying well, can we still use his books and stuff and Put up this comment as well in earlier, uh that ravi also claimed he was never unfaithful to his wife

Um, but you brought this up on the show I want to give you and then justin a chance to respond and then we have someone else in the backstage we'll bring in so but you know, you you brought this out on our show that He even while doing this was claiming he was faithful to his wife

Yeah, and that's in the miller and martin report the investigation that was done and i'll just read the quote, uh from 2017

So this is later on Uh quote in my 45 years of marriage to margie.

I have never engaged in any inappropriate behavior of any kind Um, so that's where he was at least three years before his death in may of 2020 um but Uh To the issue of using his resources.

No And mainly because I mean the books of his that I have read. I haven't watched a whole lot of ravi

The guy doesn't go to scripture. The guy is going to philosophy um You know

Yeah, i'm, sorry philosophy is not going to save you Even if it's even if it's logical, even if it's makes makes sense.

I mean I studied philosophy in college Yeah, there's value to it. But the holy spirit works through the word.

He works through the gospel And that's one of the glaring Uh areas that is absent in his teaching and in the books that I have read

So that's a problem But the point that I made andrew that that i'd like justin peters to to follow up with you don't need to use his books but if you happen to be a believer who was

Who ravi? Zacharias may have been a means that the lord used to move you to the gospel

To truly regenerate you where you repent and believe Your salvation is not in jeopardy because your salvation is not based on the means the lord used.

It's based on the truth of christ um so so don't You know if if you're listening to this and you wonder oh my goodness

I was a big fan and and I really learned a lot great. You learned a lot your salvation is in christ

It is not in the minister or the ministry that the lord may have used to bring you to that point

Justin Yeah, I echo because I you know, I get asked pretty frequently people say well

When I got saved in a charismatic word of faith church I i've had people even tell me they believe they got saved in the benny hinn crusade

And I have heard benny hinn present enough of the gospel For god to use that to bring one of his own to himself.

It does not validate benny hinn Benny hinn still a false prophet on it by every biblical definition of the term.

So I Give a hearty. Amen to what bud just said that if if god and his providence uh used something that Ravi said to in some way

Points you to the gospel. It's uh, your salvation rests in christ not in ravi Now that happened just while we've been doing the show

I actually pulled up that miller report and was scanning through some of the highlights of it There there's no way around this

Yeah, there is no way around this They have pictures to over 200 pictures of partially to completely nude women

On ravi. Zacharias's devices. He had over 200 contacts of uh,

Of of masseuses. What's the plural of masseuses masseuses masseuse? I was whatever

Massage Yeah, uh, he had over 200 of these in his phone they have uh, statements, you know of him, uh, talking to these women and Talking to them in sexual terms and I ain't no getting around this ain't no denying this

That I'm, i'm just gonna i'm just gonna say this and i'll I don't even know well

There's no way the man was saved That's right. There's no way the man was saved there.

I mean first corinthian six Podcast and people were blasting me for it.

There's no way I do not be deceived

Neither fornicators nor adulterers nor idolaters nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor revilers nor covetous nor swindlers

Will inherit the kingdom of god That's right. I mean he was doing this apparently up until a

A few months before he died. Well until he got too sick dying of cancer.

He was still doing it Where is the evidence of the holy spirit of god in this man's life? Yeah, I mean he was doing this justin up until he got sick too sick to continue and he was now homebound so It's not like it's the gospel

It cheapens the gospel to say that this man was a regenerate person

That is a cheapening of the gospel. The holy spirit of god is not a weakling if he's strong enough to save us he is strong enough to sanctify us and And christians stumble into sin

Christians don't swim in it. My goodness. This man. He wasn't just swimming in sin. He had a scuba suit on I mean

I love how justice Well, let me uh

We have a guest in the backstage, uh, I guess he would he would be technically my little brother because he calls me his big brother but uh

Kofi, how are you? I'm doing well, so good to see you brothers You definitely have better looks in that relationship

I just want you to know that And and that that would go for you know you compared to anthony as well so Oh I know you've been listening in you know, what are you?

What are your thoughts? I know you've been up to date with some of this stuff with ravi Um, I mean my my initial thoughts when all this broke was just heartbreak um heartbreak for First and foremost the name of christ is like oh great

Another high profile minister who has fallen in such a public In fact calling it a fall is actually insulting because These were calculated decisions one of the things that my wife and I were talking about when all this came out

It was just the reality that this wasn't a one time Okay But moment of weakness if you wanted to use that language

This was a pattern of predatory behavior going back years yes, yeah and Just the heartbreak that okay.

This is someone who meanwhile was traveling the world proclaiming the name of christ I've only heard

I only heard ravi zacharias speak one time in person It was a ligonier conference in seattle, let's see 2018

Yeah 2018 Like and people came from all over for that conference primarily to hear ravi zacharias like this man's name had pulled

And now we fast forward two years And all this has come almost three years and all this is coming out in just a horrific fashion

So heartbreak for the name of christ heartbreak for you know, again, I don't know how much his family knew

And that raises some questions, especially with the daughter who's on the board of the ministry. How much did they know? I'm going to try and believe the best and say his own wife didn't know this

If that's the case, well One thing with that kofi though. His wife was his wife and daughter were on the board of directors

In 2017 and the daughter was the director of the spa

Where he was where he was doing all this The daughter I think knew more than Most folks is why okay.

I didn't know his wife was on the board. So that's interesting you know, but heartbreak for that family heartbreak for The people in the ministry who

I had to imagine there were some people who had no idea this was happening God said I think a lot of people need to ask questions.

How do we not notice? But you know, I for example, I know people who work for what what used to be rzim uk the zacharias trust

And obviously they've separated themselves entirely. I want to rename the ministry and just put all that in the past um

So heartbreak for them heartbreak for the victims, you know, I feel for is it laurianne?

Is it thompson her name? Yes, um who? Basically has been sadly proved, right?

One of one of the things that I didn't get to on the rap report podcast with laurianne is They still have an nda a non -disclosure agreement

Don't even stop me on that And they will not release her even in light of all this they still will not release her

He's he's died. In fact, I would argue he broke the non -disclosure agreement

When once they made it and he went to christianity today and started coming up with stories bashing them

So I think he broke that agreement because they weren't supposed to talk about it period And so she still gagged she still has this gag order on her where she can't speak about it

And yet and and it's the executor Of his of his estate, which i'm going to assume is his wife

So if that's the case then it's it's his wife or whoever is the executor of the estate That will not release laurie thompson to speak on this and And you know, that's that's a good point and that Itself is disturbing.

It's like okay you're willing to oh, there's my son, by the way, where is it? Yeah Big man.

Oh, he's yeah. Um, he's huge Um, is it again

I could just feel a heartbreak initially But then I started to read the report

Um, I took an hour or so late at night one night and just read through it And then as just indignation it's like okay, hold on This man was using ministry funds to fund this perverse lifestyle

He was invoking the name of christ to do so Covering it up for years using every manipulative tactic in the book to cover all of this

Meanwhile people on the internet and this is why I wanted to jump on for a minute People on the internet well, he's dead.

You can't talk about it now. Let him rest god is his judge. Um, My bible says in 1 timothy 5 24 that some men sins.

Um, Some in some men's sins are obvious preceding them before judgment and some men's sins follow after He managed to get away with it in this life

As it were like he died of nobody knowing but now that stuff has come out And if that stuff has come out it now needs to be dealt with publicly because Last I checked this man was an ordained minister of the denomination.

I don't know what exact links he had with this Christian and missionary alliance, but this is a man who professed to be a minister of the gospel

Who had a very public ministry and now all this stuff has come out in public And no,

I don't think this is for the sermon bloggers to try and get hits on their websites and what have you But we do need to talk about this stuff publicly

Because these are very real people who've been affected by this well, um real church has been affected by this, you know, kofi um, so if you made me you made me think about something there's a

You know the theology of rewards and punishments. Um in the right words and others how to talk about and you know, i've heard this that Your ministry lives on after you and part of your rewards and heaven is not just your rewards up until you die

It's it's it's your also your legacy Of the gospel of the people that you share the gospel and your legacy

Of people who read your materials and you're listening to your sermons and the number of people come to christ, you know

Long after you're gone And you made me just kind of wonder about this.

Does that mean? If there's this idea of punishments Uh, is your punishment still being stored up because of your sins you left behind that's now bringing reproach upon the name of christ

Just one of those things to kind of throw that back as a theological thing. What do y 'all think about that?

I think he's standing before god and he's going to face judgment as the scripture is clear that He's going to stand before god on the final day

And he's going to be screaming out lord lord Have I not done all these things in your mighty name? And he's going to say depart from me you work of iniquity for I never knew you this is

This is violence. It's Titus titus 2, you know tells us to try to to show ourselves an example

And this man showed an example of violence that he hid himself You know frank you were talking about earlier about this grooming

And what I want to point out is andrew and justin, uh, frank you guys

You have this thing set up for accountability And you have leadership set up for accountability where you talk about pastors and godly men

Who won't put up with your silliness? They won't put up with you playing around and playing games and fasting with christianity

They won't they're not gonna put up with it, you know, i'm gonna tell you Andrew does something like this one time i'm out i'm gone

Okay, and i'll make sure everybody knows it while i'm trying to burn out the doors You know if I did that he'd do the same to me

It's because we love each other and we love god more We love the body of christ. It's that important.

We also have accountability within the body of christ the church But what you see here is you see a person

Who has set up a board with no accountability It's a board that he leads that he grooms that he teaches

And they're the ones that are supposed to be Overseeing him and yet he's telling them what's approvable.

What's acceptable? um all the wicked things he's doing, uh being angry at people and shunning them for you know, what is

Laying them off and and not letting them have a voice whenever he would say something Uh, or whenever they would say something to him

This is all the conduct Of someone who is staging himself to be uh

You know untouchable If they're untouchable and so they can get by with anything you want to in this report it talks about going back to 2010

It goes back to 2010 this stuff's been going on for I don't know how many years But but nobody in the board

Would question him because he staged this with victims That he has on his board

Guys, this is not talking about godly men who are able to stand up to him and say you are the man

You're wrong This is talking about weak Weak -willed people that that have no backbone

And they they love this this idea of this glorified ministry And so they're willing to let him get by with anything he wants to get by with And it is disgusting.

It's vile, you know, I just Oh, well, let me tell you let me tell you

Uh a story of justin you'll remember this there there i'm not going to name who this person is, but there there's a very well -known person where something had happened and You know it just a tense situation where he didn't think through it in prepare and Said something that wasn't true and You know

Justin, you'll remember I I mentioned it to you. I was concerned. I mentioned it to anthony he we were there he was there at the time not exactly there but And I I was just struggling because this is a very well -known person

And I was like, you know, is it something that I need to confront him on and justin you You when

I told you you were like, well, yeah, you need to call him i'm, like Ah, but like is it son? I could just let go because it wasn't a big deal wasn't like we're talking about ravi and this is you know, also folks for the character you understand who like Who justin is but justin you called me like one or two times after that?

And and anthony called me once after asking did I go to the person yet? Did I actually follow up?

That was the accountability I I needed right so that it made sure I went and did what

I needed to do is go Verify this story to make sure I knew what happened And you know, so I ended up calling him and said hey, you know we were out this is what you said and It's not you know, like can you explain this and and he was just like well

You know, this is what happened and he he explained he said it was wrong But I I shouldn't have done it. I it wasn't exactly true and you know

Asked forgiveness and you know, it was better afterwards. I mean in you know, like now I know

I can go to him With things and he's he he receives it. Well um,

I also know that You know, I have guys like justin and anthony who if i'm going to say hey like someone did something

They're going to make sure I actually follow through in biblical principles Even if I don't want to because be honest with you guys

Sometimes we don't want to Yeah Think about the person that may know about this.

Do you think they want to go and confront? Ravi Zacharias? Especially if they know he gets angry with people right

So okay. So and first of all your video stopped working andrew, so we see you just kind of uh, okay good

Yeah, it's not it's not moving. So Okay, this is not going to be very long but So, okay as we're as they're tracing the history we're talking about the the report now and we're looking back right on And hindsight 2020 we're seeing all this stuff.

So to you frank to what you said earlier We're seeing these things we're putting them together And maybe people wouldn't have questioned it as much at the time but What about the issues going even further back?

Ravi doesn't preach the gospel Ravi as as either butter kofi said uses tons of philosophy

When people asked me at conferences when I would teach adam and say hey, what do you think about ravi?

I always said I don't like him always have said that and my reason why is because The worst one of all was this he was asked is jesus the only way in front of a large crowd

And he gave a five -minute diatribe of of philosophical nonsense

Before he never really answering it never really answered the question by the end of it He did the same thing when he was asked about catholics if they were really christians

I know todd friel mentioned this on his show not 20 days ago. I heard that too did the same thing.

Um, Where was anybody to call him out on the carpet? You're you're a top apologist and you can't even answer the simplest most basic questions of christianity.

That's a problem Andrew, you just brought up linda yost. Um, he also lied about his credentials. I was going to bring that up next

What about the fact that he has lied about numerous credentials? Where is where is his his ministry partners

Forcing him to write large, uh, or be able to write apology letters Publicly where it's publicly known and broadcast that he had lied

And he did this on multiple occasions as well. So to justin's, uh, justin peter's point You look back at the entire history of it.

I have a really hard time believing he saved It's it's not just the women thing, right? It's it's the whole package that we're seeing

This isn't somebody who as some people out there are saying this is just okay. This is his this is his sin

He really struggled with it. No, it's way more than that. It's way more than that It's way more than that with just the women let alone the credential the lying about credentials as well as His issues of being able to just give simple answers to basic christian questions and And clergy talk is saying, uh, wow,

I didn't know he lied about his credentials. I I went through this on the rap report Where real quick just to give people the background on that that may not know

He claimed he got a doctorate degree and taught at a university And that university came out and said he never attended

Any classes at that university and never was was paid uh For for those classes, so he had to remove that from his his resume um

So yeah, that's what it's talking about. So who? Justin, were you did you want to address that what anthony said?

Yeah, no anthony's right. I Can I ask justin a question? Yeah, sure

I want to ask justin a question that so justin the more I listen to this are we dealing with an intellectual benny hen then?

Yeah, that's probably a pretty good way to put that frank. Um Yeah, benny hen is a is a charlatan a showman a fake.

Um Yeah, I mean ravi was an intellectual that's probably a pretty good way to put it an intellectual benny hen um

Yeah, I mean there's really from what I can tell there's really no area of his life that was not touched with deceit and fraud

Um and and anthony's exactly right in what he said about uh, i've heard the same thing from Ravi cannot give a straight answer

About the most basic elements of the gospel. Is jesus the only way to be saved? Uh Yeah Next question.

I mean that's like is the sky blue? Yeah hard that's not a hard question and you know for for those people that would say that ravi was

Well, he was struggling with sin This appears to be an unbroken pattern over who knows how many years

The only thing he struggled with was struggling to keep it hidden That was his only struggle which in itself is sin.

Think of the deception that had to be created for him to continue with You know the name to sin that we're aware of But you go back, you know one of the things that anthony mentioned and and I was thinking too

You go back in to the distant past 10 years ago 12 years ago and you read Some of what ravi was doing

Theologically, he's endorsing guys like on renew end all this, uh spiritual uh

Formation and contemplative prayer and you see that you see him endorsing people like joyce meyer is a great bible teacher

I mean there is a pattern of Unsound theology all the way through. Well, if you don't have the grounding and the truth of the word um

There's nothing to keep you from where you've gone um Tragic, uh, so yeah, if you're if you're following a ministry like that make sure they're preaching christ

Make sure that the ministry's In christ not in the celebrity that leads it

Well, yeah, wouldn't they be obligated to have? Um, I mean if the basic, uh standard for being in ministry, uh, let's just say pastoral memory um

Of whatever form he was in. I don't know what denomination he was part of or or what? I don't know

Christian missionary alliance Okay, okay. Um Still the bible tells us the standards for being in pastoral ministry if you're going to To to strive for this.

That's a good thing It's a good thing to struggle for it and fight for it then live up to the qualifications

Be above reproach the husband of one wife be the man that your god has called you to be

Able to handle the word of god rightly dividing it, you know The bible is is not just there for us to just pick and choose what we like You know, it's there it's there for our guide our help.

It's our it's our model is to teach us Who is qualified and who is not and I think what's what's so tragic here is

We have so many frank said it, you know earlier we have so many Uh big name people justin.

You said it as well Big name people that jumped on there and said, you know, this is ravi.

Zacharias Who cares? Yeah, i'm, sorry john mccarthur. Look I love john mccarthur

You know as much as anybody but if he was to jump into this bandwagon and start doing this stuff

He needs to be corrected too. It's it's not that we we look at ravi. Zacharias and say oh let's get him.

No, it's Lord in heaven let this man come to true repentance before he meets you as judge

You know He needs to be right with god because he's going to stand Before god and be judged and burn in hell for eternity because what he did and what he's done

Is just just as wicked and depraved as the things that everybody on this panel has done in their lives apart from christ

The the difference is jesus christ You know and the gospel of christ that saved our souls

Every evidence here. I agree with justin every evidence here is that is that he has he is standing

Under judgment and he will never see the gospel come to save his soul again Yeah, well and I want to i'm sorry go ahead justin

Oh, no, I I I said the I I guess the only Slight qualification

I would put to my assertion that ravi, uh is is not in heaven There's no evidence that he was a believer.

I still say there's no evidence He's the only way that that man is in heaven right now Is if like I guess quite literally on his deathbed deathbed that god granted him faith and repentance but barring that there is

Nothing in this man's life Nothing to make anyone think that he was a regenerate new creation in christ

Yeah Yeah, I mean that's the thing that I had I had said I I don't Look we can't know another person's heart granted i'll agree with that But what is it?

We we do we inspect the fruit. We look at the fruit of their of of their life and Uh, and I don't know who here said it tonight, but you you think about ravi.

Zacharias and you're talking about a man who Up until until he was too sick to be able to continue

This kind of behavior He continued it and he covered it up and I mean, you know,

I guess for me the the audacity of Here he is when he he was so sick

And there's all these pictures that you now see of him and his wife Cuddling together And it's so romantic and he he's praising their marriage

And he was covering all this up Like It should have been a time that he at least before his death said let me come clean

You know exactly I want to I want to just uh I want to finish

I want to bring up. Um, obviously uh real quick three things I point out in counseling and It's directly related, uh to scripture in regards to david

Um there if you notice throughout the bafshiba uh situation with david is that all started with with his thinking his thinking that he um

That he was the king Uh, he was no longer accountable to anyone. He saw bashiba.

He thought about her About her and then he moved into the behavior the sexual behavior the indiscriminate sexual behavior the adultery

Uh with her and immediately following that there was nothing but seeking cover up and That's pattern of pretty much all sexual sin is your thinking

Uh becomes clouded usually because you're thinking about yourself your own needs and not anybody else's um and then your sexual behavior or compulsions um override um

With sin and then you're going to try to cover it up But one thing that it becomes important and we think about this with ravi zacharias

David showed no repentance either until nathan showed up um

And we all need to be careful of that and pray that if we are caught up in something

That god sends a nathan to us And that he doesn't let us get up on our deathbed and nobody going to us then his board of directors should have been nathan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right good point That is a good point well it is uh it's it's

Almost it's time to wrap up. I don't know. Um, if anyone else any closing things anyone else wants to make uh any comments other than anthony because anthony

Anthony always has some Yeah, anthony always has something I have an unrelated to the ravi story.

I just Looked at twitter and tom askel from founders and ministries about an hour ago Uh tweeted praise god for his mercy to the bochum's

Uh, the procedure for vodie went well and he is resting so not I know a lot of saints have been praying about his situation

So that is uh, that is good news to hear That is good. Thank you for that Um Well, I will say this andrew doesn't know this yet, but we're going to do a special apologetics live show on sunday night

And we're going to be critiquing a pastor from new jersey Who uh, who's a pastor of a large church?

That uh has just butchered creation in front of his congregation So so we've got we've got about 17 clips.

We're going to walk through and and uh, and and we're going to talk about it And who made this decision?

I The accountability board evidently Frank, I think you and I need to veto his uh

So for those of you who miss anthony time tonight you're going to get sunday night well, there are

You know atomic apologists is uh demanding anthony time Uh, there were some other calls for anthony time.

We had humble clay said hey since anthony was running late I think anthony time is in order we could even change the the uh the content discussed

So, um, and and here's uh, here's someone else that we we know brian simmons is saying yes to that so, uh, someone that uh

That we've several of us have gotten to know um But uh with that I want to thank you guys for coming in weighing in on this

This was not a fun or easy topic to discuss not you know, this is why I read that passage out of philippians three

Uh, this is it's a more of a heartbreaking thing to have to deal with um and it's it's not something that Any of us are coming to with glee and joy and can't wait to to discuss it um, but so sunday night anthony will uh

We'll we'll I guess have something about uh, An anti -creation pastor that's that's out there.

Uh, we do sometimes do this. We we did the one with um, uh Pastor coats with the guys from matter of theology to give some a live show

So, uh, we'll be back here next thursday. Um, And I I actually i'll i'll put pastor justin on the spot.

I I think next thursday Uh anthony's not going to be able to be here Uh, and the the thursday after that on the 11th is we're going to have a special guest uh talking biblical counseling and that's going to be with A fellow named chris komeda.

He is a biblical counselor. So that is on the 11th Uh, justin, I'll bang our heads together and figure out what we'll be discussing next week

But folks we would love for you to come in and ask questions. That is the the best thing to do that way we

Uh have you in and get to answer questions. This is a live show for that reason. So Um, so we can answer your questions or challenges

Uh, there was supposed to be someone that was supposed to come in and challenge me on calvinism

But I guess he didn't show He wasn't predestined. He wasn't predestined to do it.

So folks we thank you and uh, we'll just we're going to end with a uh, just giving you a um a little bit of an an advertisement for our christian podcast community, so The christian podcast community

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One stop for all your favorite christian podcasts The quote of the night frank mullis