Ravi Zacharias and How to Prevent a Ministry

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries.

Show Opening and Listener Instructions

It's thursday night, which means. This is time for apologetics live. Thursday nights 8 to 10 eastern time. We're here to answer any of your apologetic questions. Anything you may have questions about almost any topic.

Because we can answer any question you have about god and the bible just saying. And so we are glad you are with us all of you who are watching live. You're welcome to come on in join us if you so choose.

And we would be able to answer any of your questions. We will be watching the questions that come across mostly on youtube. And so that is where. If you want to leave just comments, we will pop them up on screen as well.

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So uh, what we're looking to do is, uh, give you some things. One thing I want to do let me bring in Pastor justin. How are you, sir? Wonderful brother. How you doing?

Wonderful Wonderful. I've got my horses in the back. Yeah, I see.

We're back I guess I guess last week people mentioned that you look like you were. You know trying to prepare to be with uh, pastor coats and you were just had the cell. Look of being in a in a jail cell, but uh glad you were let out um.

So let's let's get uh through some introductory things before we get to the topic tonight. The topic tonight's going to be ravi zacharias and some of the things that we think could be could have prevented what happened there now.

Ministry Updates, Support, and Prayer Requests

One thing I want to mention off the bat. This is uh, politics live is a ministry of striving for eternity. We are also on Podcast form on the christian podcast community. So if you want to find out more about striving for training Just go to striving for attorney .org.

If you want to find out more about the christian podcast community go to christianpodcastcommunity .org. And so we did make some changes as well. Um that there are some ways you can support us. Uh, obviously one way that you can support us is going to our website strivingforattorney .org.

Support that is one way you can support us. But another way that you could support us is if you're watching on youtube if you're a youtuber. Uh, let me just show you real quick. I'll put this up on the screen.

This is the youtube channel and if you look over here where it says join. Right next to subscribe if you were to click on that you get a way of joining the channel. And this is some other ways of supporting Us with different levels of support.

And so that is another way that you can support us. Um. But uh, we of course prefer monthly support that is helpful for us keeps us paying the monthly bills now, uh, we're missing one person here. And so for that, I I need to explain.

Uh, dr. Silvestro Called me about half an hour ago. Some of you may have seen his facebook post. His father-in-law is not doing well. Uh, his father-in-law is basically at the end of Of life on earth and because of that Dr. Silvestro is is with his wife, uh with his father-in-law with the family there.

Um, and i'm not sure whether he is going to be able to make it. I we don't want to force him to try to rush and he's got more important things to be doing. So if you could lift up his wife's family, uh, this is you know, as some of you know We he just recently, uh, dr. Silvestro recently lost Uh his father and uh, and now we have Uh his father-in-law.

And so it's been a rough few weeks months for the silvestros. So we just asked that you would lift them up in prayer um. So with that, uh, I think I I should uh in way of More things to get started with i'll put this up on screen here justin and this is uh.

If you guys are going to if anyone is in the orlando area um if you're in the orlando area, this is our Snatch them from the flames Seminar that we're going to be doing we're doing this may 7th to 10th in orlando.

Uh, well technically winter garden florida. Uh beulah baptist church, so if you guys need to get away. Uh, get get out of the cold and you want to come down. Uh, maybe spend some time at disney world and then join a great seminar.

We're going to have justin peters myself. Dr Silvestro, uh, dr. Casey buttner is the pastor there. Uh, we will be having a great time the website to get more information is beulah baptist Wg .org. So that's where to go for that uh now Justin, I i've been blamed for some things recently.

Ravi Zacharias, Accountability, and the Board's Response

Uh, I don't know if that doesn't surprise me but you know just because. So if you've listened to voice of reason radio, which which I recommend you listen to. But if you've if you listen to voice of reason radio, uh, dr. White Decided that he was kind of had enough with um you know with uh what he was seeing from.

Uh the host there chris honholds and I guess this started some time ago when chris honholds. Um basically Said he never saw the movie elf. And so dr. White bought chris honholds a an a buddy the elf doll with a pull string that um, I guess was You know the highlight of their show.

And so i'm being blamed for this and those that see on screen. This is a full-size buddy the elf that showed up at chris's house uh now I I I need to say for the record, you know Chris said on his show that you know that james white outdid me because I always announce When I do things and therefore I didn't announce this so it can't be me I actually believe if you look closely, I I actually look think this looked a lot more like chris honholds.

Than it does buddy the elf. I think if you zoom in close. Yeah, see this is a much better picture of Of chris the elf I I think that's what so I think he needs to hang up his his uh, captain america Outfit and and just go with buddy the elf.

It just I think he looks better that way I I could see him doing that at all his events uh, and and folks if you if you don't know if you're not on twitter or or Facebook and you don't follow chris honholds and the the antics this man has that seem to follow him.

Uh, but whoever whoever did that, uh kudos to them. Uh, I i'm being told that dr. White's not done so I guess whoever sent this left a note saying that that they weren't going to be outdone by by james white and uh, so they're.

Oh, oh deep dive discipleship says andrew stays trolling. See I get blamed for all this stuff. I there's no evidence that I did any of this. Um Chris thinks he has evidence, but uh, he hasn't shown it.

But uh, i'm being blamed so. Uh, I think that's all the stuff that we oh we can't we should mention if you're on. Uh, if you're on youtube and you want to leave us a super chat, we always read super chats.

So under where you usually would leave comments, there's a little dollar sign if you click that. Um. You can you can uh, let's see you can give a chat there and that way we will um be able to. Um. Basically read your comments online.

So if you want to make sure we read your comment, that's a way of doing it uh, meanwhile I have someone asking me when when does um. Hey, when does polo jack's live start my response eight minutes ago.

So, um. So, let's see, let me get to some feedback we've gotten uh from the show um, I want to read some. Some things we've some feedback we've received in email uh, i'm not going to give names because one of them is going to share some personal details, but uh, Hello, thank you.

Uh. You know, thank you. I basically i've been sending out to those who who are on our email list uh, i've been sending out um. Basically just updates. Uh on what we did last year some updates not the whole thing.

But uh, but just some some things and one of them was apologetics live. And so someone someone had said this, uh, thank you for your email letter, sir um. It you know, they they basically said, um. That uh.

In response to the question statement we had said if you have any feedback for us. Let us know and so that's what this person is saying. Um. You know the in response to uh the question statement above you.

You parentheses the leaders at striving for eternity un parentheses. Didn't disappoint us like ravi. Zacharias and carl lenz did last year. So that was good. Nor are you a chronic fornicator like charles jenkins?

Was Having an eight-year affair. Still claiming to be a christian and preacher is a little bit scandalous. Lol. And your facebook live sessions are very nice as well. I I particularly liked one about poor pastor james coates and.

The one about the weird pastor who was hating on pastor john and phil johnson and everyone it it was good to learn that uh that he fornicate. I think she probably means it was not good, but. But i'll read it the way it says it.

It was good to learn that he fornicated with a poor Gullible south african girl and never married her. Like he promised to that way we all know to avoid him. Especially us girls. Well, yeah, he would be one to avoid because us girls can slash ladies can be gullible sometimes.

Especially when it comes to love and our emotions. So thank you. It seems though there are not a whole lot of Uh good sound biblical leaders left. And the ones that are left are currently under much fire much media scrutiny.

Uh or have fallen and it's hard to know nowadays who to believe. But so far striving for eternity seems okay. They seem solid. So that is good. So yes many time many thanks to you and your ministry for all you do god bless and take care.

And we're going to talk about some reasons why? Uh. You you won't see. I think someone is striving for eternity. Falling the way ravi did another email that we got this one from the uk um. Thoroughly enjoyed the this episode.

This was about episode 100 the last one that we did. We got a lot of good feedback on that. A lot of people were enjoyed that. I Enjoyed the the all the people we had on. Uh, so so this person was saying the same thoroughly enjoyed the episode very comforting to listen to.

I loved the camaraderie you all had much uh. Importantly listen to your biblical views with passion and you are so refreshing. With my cup of tea in hand. Uh, I was in my element. So thank you. That's from the uk.

So melissa wanted to ask you a question though.

She wants to say how is the dinner that matt's like it's like send me a dinner um. For the record if you didn't see episode 100 you you want to watch that one to see when matt slick door dashed me to get me back for the fact that um, I had well the fact that I Have been busting on him for years.

I've even called in his radio show to embarrass him and make him have to explain. That he has You know never bought me dinner. And so what I did this week monday is the next live show that he did. I called into his live show.

And and I allowed him to gloat. I thought it was fair I've called his radio show and asked him why he calls me a jerk so that he would have to explain the story of missing out every time and and Always losing on this for nine years.

He has been attempting it. Uh, and so I called up his show. And because I moved from jersey to penn anytime. I said andrew from new jersey. He knew who it was but saying andrew from pennsylvania. I think threw him off and he wasn't quite sure.

And I said that the question I had was about gifts and I just said, uh. Yes, matt. I'd like to ask you I want to ask you about gifts that are left at people's doors. During live broadcasts that he started to laugh because now he knew who it was.

That was calling him. And so yes, and someone else had asked earlier. Um about um. How i'm feeling I I am feeling better i've i've been uh Been as I said, I think last week's been working out. Uh. Two three times a day a day, uh been running a lot and cut down a lot of food and been doing well.

Uh, we have bills asking is there any update on pastor coats? Yes. He has a court date that is now set. He will not be allowed out of jail unless he promises to stop preaching. So he must remain in jail until the court date.

And then they will decide what to do with him. His church this sunday was Had a larger gathering than ever before and so There was that he was um. You know he was uh Still in prison and but the church is is grown.

So so I really like that, uh, I really liked that dr. MacArthur, uh got up there and Just you know, they put their full backing and support for uh, mr. Coats for pastor coats. I really That I did that just I was almost broke down just.

Listening to that watching that I haven't I haven't yet. I haven't seen that yet. So it's on my list to watch thomas. Leo is says, uh, wow, uh there andrew I believe matt purchased a dinner for you in ohio.

It was a pizza at pizza hut. Uh as god is my witness. No, no thomas. I I don't believe you. I was there you were there and you're not matt slick because matt slick wasn't there. So let me get to one last feedback we have because we got to get onto our show we got some great guests backstage here.

Ravi Zacharias, Ministry Culture, and Grooming

Uh, we have someone that said that in response to the effect of how striving fraternity has helped them. They said the series you did on gfc has brought immense healing. From the harm this cult inflicted.

It was it has freed me to be able to trust the teaching and leadership of my current pastors. And i've grown in faith and love for god and assurance of my of salvation. And appreciate the church because of this series.

I also appreciate the personal help I received through your ministry. These are the reasons i've become a sponsor albeit a minor sponsor. If my circumstances change I will increase my giving because I believe you are doing good work for god.

Until then I will pray for your ministry and for your health. And so we thank her. For that this is someone that as many of you know, dr Silvestro reached out to many people and was getting a lot of um, I spoke to I think I forget like a hundred hours of interviews that he did privately, um, so with that, um I want to first bring in, uh, we want to talk about ravi.

Zacharias. And oh, I gotta do one thing for someone that wants to come in. And so I want to I I want to um I want to first bring in my co-host on the rap report. Bud alheim bud. How are you this evening?

Good evening. How you doing? It's it's surprising to see you up so late. You're you're an early bird. I'm doing this for you guys. You're doing this because we didn't enough on the rap report. And and I think we're covering this again because bud has Another way that we want to that he wants to try to tackle The this whole thing there's so many different cans of worms with this whole ravi zacharias thing.

Oh, yeah, really.

So i'm eager to hear what you guys I mean, I really want to. You know contribute as I can but i'm eager to continue this conversation. So um. Very important. A lot of things that we need to observe and a lot of things we can learn from this.

There are and you know, one of the things to do. Go ahead. Justin. You said you're going to say something. I was actually going to say that.

What you're talking about with with the ravi zacharias situation it just It it brings to the forefront the the issue of integrity. I saw somebody post A comment up here earlier that said, you know that ravi zacharias has done so much harm to the church.

I disagree with that. Um all in my opinion is That ravi zacharias is exposing the wickedness of a world system that calls itself church. That doesn't have accountability. They don't have authority to stand upon the word of god and they they don't know it.

They don't they don't study it. I mean if you went back and look at any of the videos from ravi zacharias um. As i've watched them, they're not biblical videos. No, there's no there's not a biblical component to it.

Um, you know, he goes to the What was the mormon tabernacle? I believe it was and uh and spends days there. And doesn't even come out with the gospel.

Yes well, I mean this is something that bud and I mentioned on our show is that You know ravi was a philosopher and and not yeah, not a christian apologist but one of the things we want to do is Um, we want to address one thing is this letter um so.

You know that and for that reason I want to bring in. Uh, we don't have dr. Silvestro here, but we have someone who used to be on the board at striving fraternity. I want to bring in uh soon to be dr Like mom.

Well, he's got a lesson to be. He's just got to finish a paper. That's it. It's a small little paper.

Yeah, it's only 100 pages. That even uh looked at here now.

I've modeled my beard by the way. I've modeled my beard after frank mollis. Every time I go online and I see those pictures i'm just like Uh, that looks okay pretty close. I'm not the hair but the beard.

Yeah, well I modeled my hair I guess after buds. No, no. Listen. It's been a while. Yes it has. What's that iconography you've got behind you there? Is that actually? Christian is it okay for you to have that?

I'm at a museum. I'm. I'm at a museum. Okay I'm at a museum. I I've been on the spot. So i'm actually at a art museum. Uh, the only place I could get. No. This is it's a painting. That one of my former jiu-jitsu students one of my former jiu-jitsu students left my martial arts school.

Uh his um his uh. All of his stuff left in his storage unit and so this painting was in there and uh, so. Um, I needed a background, uh for what I do. On my webx stuff. So let's take it. I i'm assuming it's cinderella.

That's that's my assumption is uh, the cinderella. I'm not exactly sure. Uh exactly what it is.

But it looks good to be hanging in a martial arts studio. Well, I mean frank. That's the funny part of it.

For this broadcast it adds quite a level of sophistication that is woefully needed I think. Yeah. We we have another guest who just the horse the horse the horse look the the horse in the back. Yeah, I think he's in a barn.

Um. Yeah, pastor. Justin has the horse. It's better than what he had last week where it looked like he was in the prison cell. Yeah.

Yeah. So we haven't. Hey look you gotta bring my brother in i'm sorry.

I'm trying i'm trying but you know, he's he's a little bit slow, you know. I mean look it does take this guy three hours just to get dressed in the morning. All right. So we you know, he may be slow getting in here.

It only took him what 23 minutes to get in. This is what he does. So let's let's let's bring in. Oh, there he is. Mr. Justin peters. All right. Whoa. Hey guys.

Justin, how you doing brother? But i'm doing well and you have been on my list to call for a long time. I've i'm sorry I've got to this is how you do it, huh?

I found penance elsewhere. So i've been absolved. Don't worry. No problem. How are y 'all. I didn't answer the phone bud. Oh, really? He called me and I didn't answer. So, uh I sent him a text and I i'm always afraid to call him, but I know he's busy.

Justin busy never.

I just can't wait till we see each other in israel. That's gonna be fun.

Yes I'm excited about that. I'm looking forward to that. There's still room but.

Just wanted to point it out here that we have room and for anybody that wants to come on and uh, join us, uh, I'm i'm excited about it. I'm i'm looking forward to it.

Do we have the banner the banner for that? I don't see the banner. I'll try to find it real quick. All right. So well the place to go for the israel trip is just go to. Uh israeltour2021 .com israeltour2021 .com.

So what we want to do tonight is talk about this situation with ravi zacharias. Uh, I know many of you guys have there it is. You know if you put it up for a second Justin likes to put these things up the banners up for like one second for you guys to you know, see.

So israeltour2021 .com. Uh ravi zacharias. Now one of the things uh, there's two things frank that I want to address with you, uh with your your expertise um. You know, they're the board of directors of rzim.

Uh had come out with a letter and you know, I don't know if everyone here got to read the the the board letter.

I mean immediately after page i've got i'm looking at It. I'm looking at the uh report of independent investigation if there's 13 pages of it i've read all of it.

Yeah, there was there was a separate, uh, there was a separate basically open letter from the board um of of ravi zacharias ministries and. They basically i'm gonna just i'm gonna put the link in comments here.

And then we'll put it up right there. So. Uh. So i've got it. I'm pulling it up as well.

Yeah, so if you go here, you know, dr. Svester and I read this and the very first thing Uh that when after reading it I Dr. Svester and I were talking and the there's the first thing I said was missing from this now this this letter if you end up reading this is Um, it's got a lot of things that seem to be what you'd want to hear.

They they took responsibility they said that they uh for the for uh, not. Believing laurianne thompson who was the first one in 2007 to make an accusation against ravi um, they Basically made the statement that they were wrong that it was what ravi did was sinful.

All of these different things which sounds good, but there was one Thing one thing that I thought was missing from this and when I mentioned it Anthony said the same exact thing. What was missing from this apology letter from the board of rzim was their resignation?

That's what repentance would have looked like. Because because I really think that the fact that they attacked Uh laurianne thompson that they said they believed ravi that they said they did a thorough investigation which they now say they didn't Means that they they must have been lying before.

And so you you have a case where I think they the the right thing for them to have done was to resign um Justin there's something with your feed you're breaking up. Your video stopped so Okay, he's gonna probably work on that.

And he's back. Is it back? Okay? your your your video looks like low quality, but So, I don't know if you're having problems over there.

What are you gonna say. Um, if you can hear me, uh, I was just gonna say, you know what when you come to repentance There should be a broken heart of contrition and a full opening of your sinfulness, I mean I when I read that I I saw I saw the same thing.

We're going to bandage this we're going to bandage this we're going to make it look good. We're going to say the right things then we're going to carry on with our ministry. Okay, this has always been your ministry.

Anyway, it's not god's ministry. I mean if it was Where's that broken heart of repentance, you know? Yeah, it's offensive. It's offensive. It's because not you know, not just me personally, but I think it should be offensive to every biblical christian.

Because there are criteria for be ye holy for I am holy. You know, the bible tells us that all of our act and behavior should be that of one striving for holiness. And when you fail that so miserably um I think You know what I see there is is a is a lack of love and care for for god and for his holiness.

It's uh, I don't care about slandering the name of my lord and savior as long as I can keep my ministry. Yeah, I just I I know I have strong opinions on this, but it's it's very offensive. You know as you look at it.

Well, one of the first things I want to address is the the board of directors now I'm glad that frank was able to make it since dr. Svesh couldn't you know Frank you were you were on the board when we made certain policies and you'll remember these but You know what anthony wanted to bring out is there's certain reasons that something like this.

It's not that it can't happen at striving fraternity. But there's a lot of things we have in place. Ravi had this thing in place. If you listen to the rap report, I did I go through this if you read the documents you'll see.

What he had in place is that no one traveled. No, you didn't have ravi never traveled without a male with him. And that may be true. But that policy had easy ways around it like the fact that he traveled with a masseuse.

And When he didn't travel with a masseuse, he got to a hotel and had a masseuse come in. And when you read the article and some of the things that he had done uh, you know, he would get a massage and be completely naked and pull the covers off so that The women could see him and You know.

He would attempt to be touching them and things like that. So i'm sure he would do this in in hotels alone with these Massage therapists that he would call to his room. So even though there were some some things that he had um, he had set up to as uh, you know A protection he he also made ways that he could get around it and you know, uh frank you you'd remember we you know, We used to have a young lady who would travel from new york to the events with us because she'd run our table.

And the board decided you know what? That's just we we'd fly out of the same Same airport same flights because it made sense. And you guys said no, you know what? We we should have a policy um that. Now we we at striving free.

We don't allow men and women. That are not related to travel together um In fact, we don't even allow them to Be in the airport Together at the same time. We have them come in at different times, even though that may be harder when we land.

It's because you have two people to pick up. But if we're in that situation, we no longer do that. So We've set things like that up. Um. We we've set policies up to prevent it the the other thing. That we do and frank you you remember I remember when you interviewed for the board uh, I had told you we take accountability serious and I don't know if you remember this but the After your interview of the board the next day your interview is about an hour long 45 minutes of it was Guys asking you questions of okay.

If you saw andrew doing this or if you saw that like would you correct this would you correct? What would you do in this situation that situation? And I remember you called me the next day going you guys are really serious about accountability.

And I was like, yeah, so I mean from your experience on the board. What kind of things did you do you see that we need to we needed to set in place to prevent things that like what happened to ravi.

The Need for Accountability and Guardrails

Well, I mean part of the I think part of the issue is. Is that the more? more famous that a pastor gets um, the more people become afraid of of him and you know in reading the report that Zacharias, uh ministry, uh from the independent, uh Firm that did the report is that he would any time someone would try to correct that he would lash out at them um and probably threaten them and they were probably worried for their job and so, you know,.

They're you know anger does a lot to uh to back people down. Uh, especially powerful people. I mean and and again, you're calling into question. Ravi Zacharias um. You know, so part of the issue is the more famous the pastor gets um The the harder it is to keep him in check, uh, because pride comes before a fall.

You know haughty spirit, right? And so I think that's part of the part of the issue here. Um with the board members and his staff that called him into question and I was reading that multiple times. He got extremely angry.

And then he would not speak to that staff member. And so you you're wondering okay am I wrong i'm right I mean that's the problem with um secret sin. Is that it's it's a secret so you you don't always see it.

I mean that's part of the whole process with grooming. And sex offenders is that the grooming's not just of the victim. He's grooming everybody. He groomed that board. I'm, quite sure that he groomed that board and um, how dare you call into question?

My integrity is probably no telling how many times that that conversation probably went to back and forth. Um as just my assumption, but I know that's how grooming works is you don't just groom the victim.

You groom everybody else around so no one would even question that and obviously when his integrity was questioned he became quite angry.

Well, yeah, and I want to I want to talk in much more detail about the grooming because this is one of the areas that. You know, you're an expert in this field, unfortunately um. Folks who don't know uh, pastor mollis has the the.

He he does, uh, he also works as a counselor um for sex offenders and so you know, he uh. Has hundreds of sex offenders he talks to every week. It's it is it's on. He's always said that he has guys that if they don't show up to talk to him, they go back to jail.

So. You know but uh. But I want to talk about grooming. In a bit you have more you want to say? Do you have anything else you want to say? That's it. So I want to ask justin since you came in. Um, I know you've been following this um you know, I I I look at this and I I know that.

Uh, this is grievous to to see but I want to see what what are your thoughts? Um with this whole situation with ravi with the board with the you know, what's come to light? Anything you want to talk about?

Yeah, I mean it it became public knowledge three years ago february 18th 18th february 2018 uh that the but that these um sexting messages Between ravi and this other woman and I can't even remember her name off the top of my head.

But uh, lori thompson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, uh This was made public three years ago. And I am astonished that Ravi somehow managed to fly in under the radar for so long. And was speaking at big conferences with some well-known names uh.

All the way up till shortly before his death and there was a I mean that We had hard knowledge three years ago that this was going on not to the extent. Now we didn't know at the time at least I didn't we didn't know at the time that it was as widespread I mean when you read this report, it's just uh, it's shocking what all this this man was doing but uh, But this is nothing new.

I mean so many people are acting surprised about this. I'm like, well, why are why are we so surprised this has been known for three years now. Uh, and and I think there's no way. There is no way that At least some of the people on the board or on staff With at rzim did not know that at least some of this was going on.

There's just no way it's impossible. You could not have not known something was wrong um and I tell you Ravi rzim needs to shut down Period it needs to be burned to the ground it there is no redeeming it there is.

Um, and i've had a few people contact me. Well, can I you know, yeah, he was doing a lot of bad stuff. But you know some of his teaching is still good. Can I agree? I mean, can I uh, um, Can I still share his books and stuff?

Uh-uh. No, this man has brought so much reproach on the on the gospel so much reproach on christ. There's nothing redeeming about it. If if you can't live by the gospel that you preach and teach. Then you've got then then there's there There is nothing redeeming with the content.

Burn it. Get the books off the shelves shut the ministry down. Don't just change the name and rebrand it. I mean Bulldoze it this bulldoze it there's nothing redeeming here there. Um, this has brought untold reproach on the gospel and You know and robbie i've never been a fan of robbie.

I've uh, he was always very mystical and philosophical. You never really heard at least I didn't Heard him deal with any of the of the of the text. You know, I he was I would not characterize him as a theologian by any stretch.

A philosopher maybe but not a not a theologian um, and he had Very little if any church activity. Um, I mean he he traveled constantly i'm an evangelist. I mean I do I'm, not i'm not a philosopher like he is but I I travel and preach and teach.

I intentionally limit The amount of time that i'm on the road because I don't want to be gone all the time. It's not healthy. I want accountability. I want to be a part Of the life of my home church, I want my home church to know what i'm doing uh, and and so there's there's a big red flag with.

With anyone who is on the road? Constantly and never at their home church. It's just not there's that's not healthy on any level.