Ravi Zacharias and How to Prevent a Ministry

Apologetics Live

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:09

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

00:25

It's Thursday night, which means This is time for apologetics live

00:31

Thursday nights 8 to 10 Eastern Time. We're here to answer any of your apologetic questions anything you may have questions about almost any topic

00:42

Because we can answer any question you have about God and the Bible just saying and so we are glad you are with us

00:49

All of you who are watching live. You're welcome to come on in join us if you so choose and We would be able to answer any of your questions.

00:58

We will be watching the questions that come across mostly on YouTube and So that is where if you want to leave just comments, we will pop them up on screen as well

01:08

If you're on Facebook, please go to apologetics live .com there There is some links where or instructions where you can have your name show up.

01:17

So it doesn't just say Facebook user. That's boring and So we want to have more than just Facebook user so what we're looking to do is

01:28

Give you some things one thing. I want to do let me bring in Pastor Justin. How are you, sir?

01:35

Wonderful brother. How you doing? Wonderful Wonderful.

01:41

I've got my horses in the back. Yeah, I see We're back. I guess I guess last week people mentioned that you look like you were you know

01:49

I'm trying to prepare to be with Pastor Coates and you were just had the cell

01:55

Look of being in a in a jail cell, but I'm glad glad you were let out So, let's let's get through some introductory things before we get to the topic tonight the topic tonight's gonna be

02:07

Ravi Zacharias and some of the things that we think could be could have prevented what happened there now

02:15

One thing I want to mention are off the bat. This is Apologetics live is a ministry of striving fraternity.

02:21

We are also on Podcast form on the Christian podcast community So if you want to find out more about striving for training just go to striving for training org

02:29

If you want find out more about the Christian podcast community go to Christian podcast community

02:35

Org and so we did make some changes as well That there are some ways you can support us

02:45

Obviously one way that you can support us is going to our website striving for attorney org slash support

02:51

That is one way you can support us But another way that you could support us is if you're watching on YouTube if you're a youtuber

02:59

Let me just show you real quick. I'll put this up on the screen This is the YouTube channel And if you look over here where it says join right next to subscribe if you were to click on that you get a way of joining the channel and this is some other ways of supporting us with different levels of support and So that is another way that you can support us

03:25

But we of course prefer monthly support that is helpful for us keeps us paying the monthly bills now

03:34

We're missing one person here And so for that I need to explain

03:39

Dr. Silvestro called me about half an hour ago. Some you may have seen his

03:44

Facebook post. His father -in -law is not doing well His father -in -law is basically at the end of of life on earth and Because of that dr.

03:57

Silvestro is is with his wife with his father -in -law with the family there And I'm not sure whether he is gonna be able to make it

04:06

I we don't want to force him to try to rush and he's got more important things to be doing So if you could lift up his wife's family

04:13

This is you know, as some of you know, we he just recently Dr.

04:19

Special recently lost his father and and now we have his father -in -law and So this in a rough few weeks months for the

04:33

Silvestro's so we just asked that you would lift them up in prayer So with that I think

04:42

I should in way of more things to get started with I'll put this up on screen here

04:50

Justin and this is If you guys are gonna if anyone is in the

04:56

Orlando area If you're in the Orlando area, this is our snatch them from the flames

05:04

Seminar that we're going to be doing we're doing this May 7th to 10th in Orlando Well, I technically

05:11

Winter Garden, Florida Beulah Baptist Church, so if you guys need to get away

05:17

Get get out of the cold and you want to come down Maybe spend some time at Disney World and then join a great seminar.

05:24

We're gonna have Justin Peters myself. Dr. Silvestro Dr. Casey Butner is the pastor there.

05:31

We will be having a great time The website to get more information is

05:36

Beulah Baptist WG org so that's where to go for that now

05:45

Justin I've been blamed for some things recently. I Don't know doesn't surprise me

05:52

But you know just because so if you've listened to voice a reason radio

05:57

Which which I recommend you listen to but if you've if you listen to voice a reason radio Dr.

06:03

White Decided that he was kind of had enough with you know with What he was seeing from The host there

06:14

Chris Han holds and I guess this started some time ago when Chris Han holds basically said he never saw the movie elf and so dr.

06:24

White bought Chris Han holds a buddy the elf doll with a pull string that I guess was you know the highlight of their show and So I'm being blamed for this and those that see on screen

06:41

This is a full -size buddy the elf that showed up at Chris's house

06:50

Now I Need to say it for the record, you know Chris said on his show that you know that James White outdid me because I always announce

06:58

When I do things and therefore I didn't announce this so it can't be me I actually believe if you look closely,

07:06

I actually look think this looked a lot more like Chris Han holds Then it does buddy the elf.

07:12

I think there's a zoom in close. Yeah, see this is a much better picture of of Chris the elf

07:18

I think that's what so I think he needs to hang up his his Captain America Outfit and and just go with buddy the elf.

07:28

It just I think he looks better that way I could see him doing that at all his events

07:35

And and folks if you if you don't know if you're not on Twitter or or Facebook and you don't follow

07:41

Chris Han holds and the antics this man has that seem to follow him But whoever whoever did that kudos to them

07:50

I'm being told that dr. White's not done so I guess whoever sent this left a note saying that that they weren't going to be outdone by by James White and so they're

08:03

Deep dive discipleship says Andrew stays trolling. I see I get blamed for all this.

08:09

I there's no evidence that I did any of this Chris thinks he has evidence, but he hasn't shown it, but I'm being blamed.

08:18

So I Think that's all the stuff that we oh we can't we should mention if you're on If you're on YouTube and you want to leave us a super chat

08:28

We always read super chats. So under where you usually would leave comments. There's a little dollar sign if you click that You can you can let's see you can give a chat there and that way we will be able to Basically read your comments online.

08:53

So if you want to make sure we read your comment, that's a way of doing it Meanwhile, I have someone asking me when when does

09:02

Hey, when does politics live start my response eight minutes ago So So, let's see, let me get to some feedback we've gotten from the show

09:20

I want to read some some things. We've some feedback we've received in email

09:27

I'm not gonna give names because one of them is gonna share some personal details, but Hello.

09:34

Thank you You know, thank you. I basically I've been sending out to those who are on our email list

09:41

I've been sending out Basically just updates on what we did last year some updates not the whole thing

09:51

But but just some some things and one of them was apologetics live and so someone someone had said this

09:57

Thank you for your email letter, sir You know, they they basically said

10:06

That In response to the question statement, we had said if you have any feedback for us, let us know

10:12

And so that's what this person is saying You know the in response to The question statement above you you

10:23

Parentheses the leaders that striving for eternity on parentheses Didn't disappoint us like Ravi Zacharias and Carl Lentz did last year.

10:33

So that was good Nor are you a chronic fornicator like Charles Jenkins?

10:41

Was having an eight -year affair still claiming to be a

10:46

Christian and preacher is a little bit scandalous, lol and Your Facebook live sessions are very nice as well.

10:55

I I particularly liked one about poor pastor

11:01

James Coates and The one about the weird pastor who was hating on pastor

11:08

John and Phil Johnson and everyone it it was good to learn that that he fornicate

11:17

I think she probably means it was not good, but It's I'll read it the way it says it. It was good to learn that he fornicated with a poor

11:25

Gullible South African girl and never married her like he promised to that way.

11:30

We all know to avoid him Especially us girls. Well, yeah, he would be one to avoid because us girls can slash ladies can be gullible sometimes

11:41

Especially when it comes to love and our emotions, so thank you it seems though there are not a whole lot of Good sound biblical leaders left and the ones that are left are currently under much fire

11:56

Much media scrutiny or have fallen and it's hard to know nowadays who to believe

12:04

But so far striving for eternity seems okay. They seem solid. So that is good.

12:10

So yes Many times many thanks to you and your ministry for all you do. God bless and take care and we're gonna talk about some reasons why

12:19

You won't see I think someone is striving for eternity Falling the way

12:24

Ravi did another email that we got this one from the UK Thoroughly enjoyed this episode.

12:32

This was about episode 100 the last one that we did We got a lot of good feedback on that. A lot of people were enjoyed that I Enjoyed the the all the people we had on So this person was saying the same thoroughly enjoyed the episode very comforting to listen to I loved the camaraderie

12:50

You all had much Importantly listen to your biblical views with passion and you are so refreshing with my cup of tea in hand

13:01

I was in my element. So thank you. That's from the UK So Melissa want to ask you a question though, she wants to say how is the dinner that Matt's like it's like send me a dinner

13:15

For the record if you didn't see episode 100 you want to watch that one to see when

13:21

Matt slick door -dashed me to get me back for the fact that I had well the fact that I Have been busting on him for years.

13:32

I've even called in his radio show to embarrass him and make him have to explain That he has, you know never bought me dinner and so what

13:40

I did this week Monday is the next live show that he did I called into his live show and And I allowed him to gloat.

13:48

I thought it was fair I've called his radio show and asked him why he calls me a jerk so that he would have to explain the story of missing out every time and and Always losing on this for nine years.

14:03

He has been attempting it And so I called up his show and Because I moved from Jersey to Penn anytime.

14:09

I said Andrew from New Jersey he knew who it was but saying Andrew from Pennsylvania, I think threw him off and He wasn't quite sure and I said that the question

14:19

I had was about gifts and I just said Yes, Matt. I'd like to ask you.

14:25

Yeah, I want to ask you about gifts that are left at people's doors During live broadcasts that he started to laugh because now he knew who it was

14:34

That was calling him. And so yes, and someone else had asked earlier about How I'm feeling

14:43

I am feeling better I've been Been as I said, I think last week's been working out

14:50

Two three times a day a day Been running a lot and cut down a lot of food and been doing well

14:58

We have bills asking is there any update on pastor Coates? Yes. He has a court date that is now set

15:05

He will not be allowed out of jail unless he promises to stop preaching so he must remain in jail until the court date and Then they will decide what to do with him his church this

15:17

Sunday was had a larger gathering than ever before and so There was that he was um

15:27

You know, he was Still in prison and but the church's is grown so So I really like that.

15:37

I really like that. Dr. MacArthur got up there and Just you know, they put their full backing and support for mr.

15:45

Coats for pastor Coates I really that I did that just I was break almost broke down just Listening to that watching that I haven't yet.

15:54

I haven't seen that yet So it's on my list to watch Thomas Leo is says wow there

16:00

Andrew I believe Matt purchased a dinner for you in Ohio. It was a pizza at Pizza Hut As God is my witness.

16:07

No, no Thomas. I I don't believe you I was there you were there and you're not

16:13

Matt slick because Matt slick wasn't there So Let me get to one last feedback we have because we got to get on to our show we got some great guests backstage here

16:23

We have someone that said that in response to the effect of how striving fraternity has helped them

16:31

They said the series you did on GFC has brought immense healing from the harm this cult

16:38

Inflicted it was it has freed me to be able to trust the teaching and leadership of my current pastors and I've grown in faith and love for God and assurance of my of salvation and Appreciate the church because of this series.

16:57

I also appreciate the personal help. I received through your ministry These are the reasons

17:02

I've become a sponsor. I'll be at a minor sponsor if My circumstances change

17:07

I will increase my giving because I believe you are doing good work for God until then

17:12

I will pray for your ministry and for your health. And so we thank her for that This is someone that as many of you know, dr.

17:21

Silvestro reached out to many people and was getting a lot of Spoke to I think

17:28

I forget like a hundred hours of Interviews that he did privately

17:35

So with that I want to first bring in we want to talk about Ravi Zacharias and Oh, I gotta do one thing for someone that wants to come in.

17:49

And so I want to I want to I Want to first bring in my co -host on the rap report, but I'll heim but how are you?

18:00

Hey Good evening. How you doing? It's it's surprising to see you up so late.

18:06

You're you're an early bird. I'm doing this for you guys You're doing this because we didn't enough on the rap report

18:15

Recovering this again because bud has another way that we want to that he wants to try to tackle the this whole thing

18:21

There's so many different cans of worms with this whole Ravi Zacharias thing. Oh, yeah, really So I'm eager to hear what you guys

18:29

I mean, I really want to You know contribute as I can but I'm eager to continue this conversation.

18:37

So Very important a lot of things that we need to observe and a lot of things we can learn from this

18:43

There are and you know, one of the things to do but go ahead Justin you said you're gonna say son

18:49

No, I was actually gonna say that What you're talking about with with the Ravi Zacharias situation

18:55

It just it brings to the forefront the the issue of integrity I saw somebody post a comment up here earlier that said, you know that Ravi Zacharias has done so much harm to the church

19:07

I disagree with that All in my opinion is that Ravi Zacharias is exposing the wickedness of a world system that calls itself

19:17

Church That doesn't have accountability. They don't have authority to Stand upon the

19:22

Word of God, and they they don't know it. They don't they don't study it I mean if you've went back and look at any of the videos from Ravi Zacharias As I've watched them, they're not biblical videos

19:35

No, there's no there's not a biblical component to it he goes to the what was the

19:42

Mormon tabernacle, I believe it was and And spends days there and doesn't even come out with the gospel.

19:50

Yes well, I mean this is something that Bud and I mentioned on our show is that You know

19:59

Ravi was a philosopher and not yeah, not a Christian apologist but what

20:05

I want to do is We want to address one thing is this letter

20:16

So You know that and for that reason I want to bring in We don't have dr.

20:23

Silvestro here, but we have someone who used to be on the board at striving fraternity. I want to bring in Soon to be dr.

20:37

He's just got finished with paper that's it it's a small little paper Yeah, it's only a hundred pages

20:44

Looked at the year now Modeled my beard by the way, I've modeled my beard after Frank Mullis every time

20:51

I go online and I see those pictures I'm just like Not the hair but the beard yeah,

20:59

I modeled my hair I guess after Bud's I What's that iconography you've got behind you there is that actually

21:22

Christians okay for you to have that I'm at a museum Spots I'm actually at an art museum

21:36

The only place I could get no This is a painting that one of my former jiu -jitsu students

21:44

One of my former jiu -jitsu students left my martial arts school his is all of his stuff left in his storage unit and so this painting was in there and so I needed a background for what

21:59

I do on my WebEx stuff. So let's take it I'm assuming is Cinderella.

22:05

That's that's my assumption is the Cinderella. I'm not exactly sure Exactly what it is

22:11

But it looks good to be hanging in a martial arts studio. Well, I mean

22:16

Frank That's the funny part of it for this broadcast. It adds quite a level of sophistication.

22:23

That is woefully We have another guest who just the horse the horse look the horse in the back.

22:33

Yeah Yeah, pastor Justin has the horse it's better than what he had last week where like he was in the prison cell

22:45

So we have a look you gotta bring my brother in I'm Trying I'm trying but you know, he's he's a little bit slow, you know

22:51

I mean look it does take this guy three hours just get dressed in the morning Alright, so we you know, he may be slow getting in here.

23:00

It only took him what 23 minutes to get in This is what he does. So let's let's bring in.

23:07

Oh, there he is. Mr. Justin Peters. All right Hey guys

23:14

Justin are you doing brother? But I'm doing well and you have been on my list to call for a long time.

23:21

I'm sorry I've got to do it, huh? I've found penance elsewhere.

23:28

So I've been absolved. Don't worry. No problem I'd send him a text and I'm always afraid to call him.

23:45

I know he's busy Justin busy never

23:51

I Just can't wait till we see each other in Israel, that's gonna be fun. Yes.

23:57

I'm excited about that. I'm looking forward to that Just wanted to point it out here that we have room and for anybody that wants to come on and join us

24:15

I'm excited about it. I'm looking forward to it Do we have the banner the banner for that I don't see the banner

24:26

All right, so well the place to go for the Israel trip is just go to Israel tour 2021 calm

24:33

Israel tour 2021 calm So what we want to do tonight is talk about this situation with Ravi Zacharias.

24:42

I Know many you guys have there it is, you know, you put it up for a second Justin likes to put these things up the banners up for like one second for you guys to you know, see

24:58

So Israel tour 2021 calm Ravi Zachariah Now one of the things

25:05

There's two things Frank that I want to address with you with your your expertise

25:12

You know, they're the Board of Directors of RZ I am Had come out with a letter and you know,

25:20

I don't know if everyone here got to read the the the board letter. I mean immediately after Yeah, there was there was a separate there was a separate basically open letter from the board of Ravi Zacharias ministries and They basically

25:50

I'm gonna just I'm gonna put the link in comment to you and then we'll put it up right there.

26:00

So Yeah, so if you go here, you know, dr.

26:06

Svester and I read this and the very first thing That when after reading it

26:13

I Dr. Svester and I were talking and the there's the first thing I said was missing from this now this this letter if you end up reading this is

26:23

It's got a lot of things that seem to be what you'd want to hear. They they took responsibility they said that they

26:31

For that for not believing Laurie Anne Thompson who was the first one in 2007 to make an accusation against Ravi They basically made the statement that they were wrong though it was what

26:44

Ravi did was sinful All of these different things which sounds good But there was one thing one thing that I thought was missing from this and when

26:55

I mentioned it Anthony said the same exact thing What was missing from this apology letter from the board of RZ?

27:03

I am was their resignation That's what repentance would have looked like Because because I really think that the fact that they attacked

27:15

Laurie Anne Thompson that they said they believed Ravi that they said they did a thorough investigation, which they now say they didn't

27:22

Means that they must have been lying before and so You have a case where I think they the right thing for them to have done was to resign

27:42

Justin there's something with your feed you're breaking up your video stopped.

27:48

So, okay. He's gonna probably work on that And he's back

27:57

Your your video looks like low quality, but so I don't know if you're having problems over there

28:06

If you can hear me, I was just gonna say, you know what when you come to repentance There should be a broken heart of contrition and a full opening of your sinfulness,

28:16

I mean I When I read that I saw I saw the same thing. We're gonna bandage this.

28:22

We're gonna band -aid this We're gonna make it look good. We're gonna say the right things then we're gonna carry on with our ministry

28:28

Okay, this has always been your ministry. Anyway, it's not God's ministry. I mean if it was Where's that broken heart of repentance, you know?

28:36

Yeah, it's offensive It's offensive it's because not, you know, not just to me personally, but I think it should be offensive to every biblical

28:44

Christian Because there are criteria for be ye holy for I am holy You know

28:49

The Bible tells us that all of our act and behavior should be that of one striving for holiness

28:54

And when you fail that so miserably I think

29:01

You know what I see there is is a is a lack of love and care for for God and for his holiness

29:08

It's a I don't care about slandering the name of my Lord and Savior as long as I can keep my ministry

29:14

And yeah, I just I know I have strong opinions on this but it's it's very offensive, you know as you look at Well, one of the first things

29:23

I want to address is the the board of directors now I'm glad that Frank was able to make it since dr.

29:29

Special couldn't you know Frank you were you were on the board when we made certain policies and you'll remember these but you know

29:37

What Anthony wanted to bring out is there's there's certain reasons that something like this It's not that it can't happen at striving fraternity

29:44

But there's a lot of things we have in place Robbie had this thing in place If you listen to the rap report or I did

29:50

I go through this if you read the documents you'll see What he had in place is that no one traveled no you didn't have

29:56

Ravi never traveled without a male with him and That may be true but that policy had easy ways around it like the fact that he traveled with a masseuse and When he didn't travel with a masseuse he got to a hotel and had a masseuse come in and When you read the article and some of the things that he had done

30:18

You know, he would get a massage and be completely naked and pull the covers off so that the women could see him and You know

30:29

He would attempt to be touching them and things like that. So I'm sure he would do this in in hotels alone with these

30:37

Massage therapists that he would call to his room. So even though there were some some things that he had

30:44

He had set up to as you know a

30:49

Protection. He also made ways that he could get around it and you know

30:56

Frank you you'd remember we you know we used to have a young lady who would travel from New York to the events with us because she'd run our table and The board decided, you know, it's just we we'd fly out of the same same airport same flights because it made sense

31:13

And you guys said no, you know what we should have a policy That now we it's driving free.

31:20

We don't allow men and women that are not related to travel together

31:26

In fact, we don't even allow them to be in the airport together at the same time

31:32

We have them come in at different times, even though that may be harder when we land It's because you have two people to pick up but if we're in that situation, we no longer do that So we've set things like that up We we've set policies up to prevent it the the other thing

31:50

That we do and Frank you you remember when you interviewed for the board I had told you we take accountability serious and I don't know if you remember this

31:59

But the after your interview the board the next day your interview is about an hour long 45 minutes of it was

32:05

Guys asking you questions of okay If you saw Andrew doing this or if you'd saw that like would you correct this would you curl?

32:10

What would you do in this situation that situation and remember you call me the next day going you guys are really serious account back at ability

32:18

And I was like, yeah, so I mean from your experience on the board What kind of things did you do you see that we need to we needed to set in place to prevent things that like what?

32:27

Happened to Ravi. Well, I mean part of the

32:34

I think part of the issue is is that the more more famous that a pastor gets

32:42

The more people become afraid of him and you know in reading the report that Zacharias ministry from the independent

32:54

Firm that did the report is that he would anytime someone would try to correct that he would lash out at them

33:02

And probably threatened them and they were probably worried for their job. And so, you know

33:08

They're you know anger does a lot to to back people down Especially powerful people.

33:15

I mean in and again, you're calling into question Ravi Zacharias You know, so part of the issue is the more famous the pastor gets

33:25

The the harder it is to keep him in check because pride comes before a fall

33:31

No, haughty spirit, right? And so I think that's part of the part of the issue here With the board members and his staff that called him into question and I was reading that multiple times he got extremely angry

33:43

And then he would not speak to that staff member. And so you you're wondering okay, am

33:49

I wrong? I'm right I mean, that's the problem with Secret sin is that it's it's a secret.

33:57

So you you don't always see it I mean, that's part of the whole process with grooming and sex offenders.

34:04

Is that the grooming is not just of the victim He's grooming everybody. He grew that board. I'm quite sure that he groomed that board and How dare you called into question?

34:14

My integrity is probably no telling how many times that that Conversation probably went to back and forth

34:21

As just my assumption, but I know that's how grooming works is you don't just groom the victim you groom everybody else around So no one would even question that and obviously when he's integrity was questioned.

34:32

He became quite angry Well, yeah And I want to I want to talk in much more detail about the grooming because this is one of the areas that you know

34:41

You're an expert in this field, unfortunately Folks who don't know pastor mollis has the the he does he also works as a counselor for sex offenders and so, you know, he

34:58

Has hundreds of sex offenders he talks to every week It's it is it is son He's always said that he has guys that if they don't show up to talk to him, they go back to jail.

35:07

So But I want to talk about grooming in a bit you have more you wanna say you have anything else you wanna say

35:19

So I want to ask Justin since you came in. I know you've been following this You know,

35:26

I I look at this and I I know that This is grievous to see but I want us to see what are your thoughts

35:36

With this whole situation with Ravi with the board with the you know, what's come to light?

35:42

Anything you want to talk about? Yeah, I mean It became public knowledge three years ago,

35:51

February 18th 18th February 2018 uh that the but that these um sexting messages

36:01

Between Ravi and this other woman and I can't even remember a name off the top of my head. But uh, Laurie Thompson.

36:07

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, uh This was made public three years ago and I am astonished that Ravi somehow managed to fly in under the radar for so long

36:23

And was speaking at big conferences with some well -known names uh

36:30

All the way up till shortly before his death and there was a I mean that We had hard knowledge three years ago that this was going on not to the extent

36:41

Now we didn't know at the time at least I didn't we didn't know at the time that it was as widespread

36:47

I mean when you read this report, it's just uh, it's shocking what all this this man was doing but uh

36:55

But this is nothing new. I mean so many people are acting surprised about this. I'm like, well, why are why are we so surprised?

37:01

This has been known for three years now uh And and I take there's no way

37:07

There is no way that At least some of the people on the board or on staff

37:15

With at RZIM did not know that at least some of this was going on. There's just no way it's impossible

37:21

You could not have not known something was wrong um and I tell you

37:28

Ravi RZIM needs to shut down Period it needs to be burned to the ground

37:37

It it there is no redeeming it there is um, and i've had a few people contact me

37:43

Well, can I you know, yeah, he was doing a lot of bad stuff, but you know Some of his teaching is still good. Can I agree?

37:49

I mean, can I uh, um, can I still share his books and stuff? No, this man has brought so much reproach on the gospel so much reproach on christ

37:58

There's nothing redeeming about it. If if you can't live by the gospel that you preach and teach then you've got then there's

38:07

There there is nothing redeeming With the content Burn it

38:14

Get the books off the shelves shut the ministry down. Don't just change the name and rebrand it. I mean

38:21

Bulldoze it this bulldoze. There's nothing redeeming here. They're there um, this has brought untold reproach on the gospel and You know and ravi i've never been a fan of ravi i've uh, he was always very mystical and philosophical

38:38

You never really heard at least I didn't Heard him deal with any of the of the of the text

38:45

You know, I he was I would not characterize him as a theologian by any stretch A philosopher maybe but not a not a theologian um, and he had very little if any church activity um,

39:01

I mean he he traveled constantly i'm an evangelist. I mean I do I'm not i'm not a philosopher like he is but I I travel and preach and teach

39:10

I intentionally limit The amount of time that i'm on the road because I don't want to be gone all the time.

39:19

It's not healthy I want accountability. I want to be a part Of the life of my home church.

39:25

I want my home church to know what i'm doing uh, and and so there's there's a big red flag with With anyone who is on the road?

39:35

Constantly and never at their home church. It's just not there's that's not healthy on any level

39:42

Well, yeah that you know, that's something that uh You know struggling for turning early on we we changed

39:49

So that I wasn't on the road all the time For that very reason the accountability we we have the policy we have to be in our local church at least half the year

39:59

You know, whether it's two weekends a month or whatever, but we we need that local accountability

40:04

Yeah, you know and and this is one area where you see a lot of guys uh fail because they they

40:13

Just go on the road and they get the pats on the back and and everyone looks up to them and no one wants to be The one to say anything.

40:18

It's like it's like what you know, frank said he grooms the the people around the victims as well

40:24

Um, one of the things that surprises me and you mentioned how the board couldn't possibly know. Well, the thing that gets me is that The board contained his wife and daughter

40:36

So you're going to tell me I mean just put put an understanding here. So your wife is on the board

40:42

There's an accusation that you have been sending naked pictures of yourself to a woman and receiving naked pictures and and asking her for them and And then other things that ended up happening between you and this woman and you're going to tell me a wife

40:57

Is hearing this And just going to defend her husband I just I just find that a little bit hard to believe

41:06

Now frank you had an interesting take on this when you and I were talking about it About this just being hey, well, this is the way, you know, it is in india multiple wives and things like that um, and that's almost what he did end up saying because he said that he

41:21

Said to one of the women. Hey, you know in the old testament men of god had multiple wives

41:27

You know But I don't know if you wanted to address address that that what you had said to me with that at all or Yeah, I was just curious, you know this cultural thing but you know again

41:41

Stand by your man is you know an old, uh country song, you know, um, and Denial I mean look i've dealt with you know sexual

41:56

Sin and impropriety with multiple people, I mean over a thousand and i've sat and listened to wives, uh who

42:06

Have stuck it out and just seen just Confronting, uh confronting them cheating on their wives and the wives spirits are broken, you know

42:18

And um, and then I know my husband would never do such terrible things. So it's not it's not just you know

42:25

It's one thing to say. I can't believe I i'm not surprised that That that she was probably in denial of the whole thing as well because he just I mean and again you know,

42:36

I I Ravi zacharias, you know, I again I heard him on the radio

42:42

Uh didn't agree with him on on the theologically, you know, I listened to him philosophically.

42:48

I thought he had some good stuff philosophically but um but uh again, i'm

42:54

It surprised me You know, I mean because I hadn't followed him in years per se But it was surprising that sexual sin was was his downfall

43:03

You know, I mean that's that's one of the things as you assume that certain people

43:09

Um, that's the I mean because i'll be honest the sexual sin is the easiest one for everybody to fall into Uh, maybe that's maybe that's why um

43:18

That um, I was I was kind of surprised maybe Because you thought you know, there's there's a lot of pastors

43:25

That don't fall into sexual sin that fall into financial you got the financial stuff that they fall into And you know,

43:32

I just I just didn't assume You know zacharias was going to go down like that But if you had told me he had a traveling masseuse

43:40

If you had told me he had a traveling masseuse, if I'd known he had a traveling masseuse with him, I would have said

43:45

Yeah, i'm pretty sure Was this a traveling masseuse was this a is this a man or a woman a woman

43:53

Yeah If you would have told me a traveling masseuse and it was a woman

44:01

I would have go are you kidding me You know, you know, could you imagine striving for eternity boarded andrew comes?

44:09

If we would have said yeah male You know You have a man and we're gonna pick and we're gonna pick him out

44:18

Yeah, i'm gonna pick him out for you. No, we we would him out His name is butch.

44:24

Um name is good. I had a 640 pounds I've got a master friend bring in let me bring in real quick.

44:32

Dr. Silvestro Who's here? Hey, brother. Okay Hello anthony

44:37

Oh Anthony has the easiest equipment in the world to use for podcasting, but he can never figure it out.

44:44

It's amazing Are you there anthony? No, look look at the look

44:51

Oh, we can hear you No, that's good when he right Can you hear us anthony?

44:59

Hi This is this is what we go through usually for folks who don't know we usually start about half an hour before the show

45:07

I'm here. I'm good He's setting it up All right

45:17

So anthony we frank was just talking about what would be the reaction at striving fraternity board

45:24

If uh, I said that I I wanted a a female masseuse to travel with us To different places because I have back problems.

45:32

How would how would that go over with you guys? Well, you know what I think I think there's a real life scenario that we can talk about because because frank and I Dealt with this, right?

45:40

Yeah, we mentioned that Yeah, so, you know So we we dealt with that and I thought we dealt with that in a uh an expedient manner, right?

45:49

We we said this didn't look right. There was no impropriety in your part no propriety in anybody's part But we said, you know, it doesn't look right and we're not going to have even an image of something

45:59

Looking incorrect to the outside world And uh, and you know what? You uh, you listened and then we moved on My biggest issue with with with uh, rabi zacharis, uh international ministry is is this issue?

46:16

People knew stuff was going on people knew Within the ministry and nobody said a word at least as far as we can tell

46:25

And and so I I look at this as uh as people who were complicit in what had happened

46:31

With with these females. I see pastor justin shaking his head. They were complicit. They're they're part of the problem with all this stuff so, you know,

46:41

I I as far as i'm concerned the entire ministry needs to disappear and go away and they need to donate all of the money

46:47

That they have to justin peter's ministry Yeah, just The same thing except for that last part

46:55

He's he's saying do not put that money anywhere near me So One of the things bud and I talked about was the fact that people who donated to this ministry

47:09

The devil had the money long enough, let's get Let's give it to something for good.

47:14

Yeah well, the thing the thing that I Bud and I had addressed was the fact that what you end up seeing is people donating money for ministry and And this money was going toward Funding condos that he shared with masseuses like When he when he'd be writing he went to I think it was bangladesh.

47:35

I forget but where it was He went there and like 256 days. He was there one year

47:40

And writing but in the same condo He bought a he bought two the ministry paid for two condos one for him and one for the masseuse that he would have.

47:51

Yeah Now am I right $4 ,000 of the ministries

48:00

I'm, sorry, right that uh, I apologize. I didn't mean to jump over there frank. Um The masseuse the lady she's the one that labeled the the rape charge.

48:09

Am I right? One of them he had several multiple masseuses Yeah So what he did was there were at least

48:18

There's multiple masseuses There's at least three that he brought Over to america

48:23

So and and frank, this is where i'm going to want to get from you the grooming because it was interesting I want you to lay out how that works because what we saw was three of them

48:33

They came to he he you know, he got them the visas under rzims

48:39

Humanitarian effort. That's how they came to the states Paid for housing paid, you know gave financially supported them they ended up working at a massage parlor where He was a partial owner

48:54

And his daughter was the director and In this massage parlor, he would make advances on them

49:01

Now once you know, they they said that once he was they were here in the states and financially being supported by him

49:07

Then sex was required And so I mean they're here like who are they going to complain to at work?

49:14

The owner is the one doing the action. The director is his daughter

49:20

And if they you know now they're being supported here in america by this guy and You know, some of the women said that they felt like they they were obligated to do this because of all he had done so Frank one of the things

49:37

I see in this is this whole issue of grooming. We've brought it up a number of times There's a lot of people who are not familiar with grooming how to spot it.

49:45

Um How to you know how to what to look for how to protect themselves and others

49:53

Many people think in their church, they're okay because they do background checks Maybe you could talk about why background checks are not really helpful and why it's more important to Be looking for grooming techniques and how what to look for Yeah, I mean first of all, um, you can probably run a background check on You know any anybody going into the ministry and you're just going to come back clean anyway, um, and you know most people uh

50:27

Unfortunately get passed around from church to church. I mean, um I I know multiple situations where churches just you know,

50:35

I mean Straight out cover it up and they get passed on to the next um

50:40

Next church or wherever it may be uh, even if there were allegations that church is afraid that whether i'm going to get sued or Nothing came of it or maybe it wasn't even um

50:53

Nothing legal in it, you know, it was a fair or something um, and so Your your background checks generally are not going to work now.

51:02

Sometimes they do um, but in general you know, you're going to trust

51:08

I mean that's the number one thing is trust they're going to build your trust and you're not going to trust, um

51:15

Uh, you're not going to trust a stranger, right but you're going to trust a friend and That's what they're going to become they're going to move in they're going to groom the parents as much as the kids and they are going to um

51:30

Be there do there, um, whatever they can for you They're gonna they're going to you know, perfect example is you know, giving you money giving you gifts um

51:42

And or being a power position, um to where you are now worried about your job uh, you you or You know, they've done some kind of favor that you know, you can't you know,

51:56

I can't I can't do this It's it's a building of that trust over and over um to where You start to you see things and and that's part of the problem andrew

52:07

Uh is that you see you see things? but your mind's playing tricks on you because you're saying now that can't be what it is because He's not

52:18

I know he wouldn't do that or you miss it because of Um, I I had um early on back in the uh 80s 89 so forth

52:32

I had a uh friend who was a Uh karate instructor. Uh, we were under the same. Um, uh karate school at the time and he had opened up a karate school

52:41

And he was doing some weird things. Um, but I could not understand I didn't get it at the time and then looking back

52:49

Uh, he ended up and was molesting his karate students, uh kids in his karate school and um

52:56

If I had known what I did now, I was gonna oh, okay, but but that and that's what happens a lot of times is

53:03

Oh robbie. Zachary has got a back problem Um, he's on the road all the time um

53:10

Why not have a massage therapist instead of him going out to other massage parlors?

53:17

um, and You know, i'm sure that that masseuse was known by the people on the board I'm sure that that you know his wife and that the the massage so they trusted her too.

53:26

It's not it's not like Um, you know, he was getting a new massage therapist quote -unquote to travel with him

53:32

Um, but he's going to massage parlors on the side of that too. So it's not from what I was reading

53:37

It's not just that one masseuse that traveled with him. He he was seeing multiple masseuses

53:45

No, frank, if if you could explain we talk about grooming, right? Even with like children and things like that uh

53:52

We see you mentioned the board was groomed as much as the women were groomed and we see this with children where the parents are groomed as much as The children are they they prepare the parents they talk to the parents in such a way to You know to build the trust that the parents would never think that this person is ever doing this

54:13

That's the whole thing of grooming is to build it where You trust the person

54:19

And that's exactly what happened with ravi. Zacharias with his board Right his board when this came out

54:26

They believed his account his story because they knew him and they they just couldn't believe this would ever happen

54:33

What are some of the ways? That grooming occurs that um, like what is it that people are trying to accomplish

54:45

Um with when it comes to grooming Okay, so um, let's if you

54:52

All right. So let's put it in in two parts. Let's let's talk about children Um, how do you get your children to do what you want them to do you give them gifts?

55:02

right Um, you take them places that they enjoy um, you introduce them to um sexual things slowly

55:14

Uh, you talk you have sexual conversations um About them you maybe tell inappropriate jokes sexual jokes to them and you introduce them slowly, but you're also rewarding them

55:25

Um when you start talking to them about sexual Uh type things that's young children um and Teenagers, here's the thing teenagers.

55:37

It's the same way you you Uh, when you met your wife, you're doing the same thing

55:44

That um, you would do to meet your wife. You're gonna give them uh gifts, uh, you buy them jewelry you buy them flowers you

55:52

Uh, take them, you know places in your in a nice car, uh for teenagers you let them drive your car

55:58

Um, you offer them alcohol you offer them drugs um teenagers, you know, and again teenagers understand sex, uh, and you know, obviously

56:09

If it's a female grooming male, that's extremely easy to groom a teenage boy

56:15

Uh into sex, you know teenage girls Um again, it's a slow introduction

56:21

But again predators are already going to pick a female who's probably already been sexually abused

56:27

Um because they know what's vulnerable and so they they see that as a vulnerability, uh to um

56:35

Engage themselves into the lives of children who are vulnerable already

56:41

That's that's part of the idea. Um You know and and again

56:47

The grooming of the parents as you're showing up with the parents you're you're offering to babysit, you know

56:53

Helping them out in times of need Um, you take an interest in their kids um, you know, and again, that's why

57:01

Perpetrators end up in the boy scouts. They end up in the in the youth ministry. They end up In the pastorate they they end up in every walk of life karate instructors

57:11

I can tell you Uh over the years i've counseled probably 25 to 30

57:17

Um people involved in the ministry who were convicted sex offenders and every and and they they were directly related

57:26

Uh to the church or some type of ministry, uh when they were arrested um, and so again, you know, um

57:36

The the grooming of what ravi zacharias is doing is obviously he was using Women who probably were that he was bringing over from countries offering them money

57:47

Uh from third world countries, that's the easiest way to groom them Uh is just offering them a life outside of a third world country into america

57:58

Yeah, and I think that is You know as one was saying someone had put up a thing, uh comment here saying that they hope no one is learning how to groom someone from this

58:10

But we want you to recognize how to recognize it so that you could protect yourself because this

58:17

The best way to prevent grooming abuse is to recognize grooming And and again

58:28

Go ahead I apologize. Uh, I was just gonna say one thing i'll say on this is the problem that in the church that is found is

58:36

There is a lack of understanding within the body of christ, especially within pastoral ministry and the leadership ministry of Of how it is that you you should?

58:47

Uh train Train your congregation train your leadership to to see and identify sexual predators

58:56

We we don't want to see that there are people that are coming in And that their desire is to harm our children

59:03

Their desire is to is to harm our wives and our husbands and and that they're they they ultimately want to destroy the body of christ

59:12

In the ultimate goal now, it may just be that they want to go after these children But that is the body of christ

59:18

And so as as a pastor and as a leader It is incumbent upon me what frank is doing is not being a bad person

59:26

By stating what's going on. I I was a police officer for eight years and I'm going to tell you

59:32

What what he's talking about? I went through this training, you know to learn to identify The predators you don't know how easy it is

59:41

Uh for a con artist to even con a police officer um and corrections, uh, we had it we had it all the time drummed into us that Oftentimes you're being lied to and manipulated to find the emotional edge that that The the criminal the the sexual immoral the pedophile the the the wicked person can get on you

01:00:05

And if he can get that one thing to ingratiate himself to you He will destroy you before you even knew what was happening

01:00:13

And and and i'm just going to say what frank is talking about is necessary for the body of christ to know

01:00:18

So that we can stand against the wickedness So that we can understand what it is that they're doing and how they do it to protect our children our families our churches

01:00:29

And so nobody can ever say to to us that we were

01:00:35

In hindsight at the end of our lives after we died Nobody can say you know what?

01:00:40

They looked so good, but they've destroyed the body of christ the name of christ I mean, I would never want it to be said that that andrew or justin or anyone

01:00:51

After their ministry was over and they had finished that last step into eternity They'll turn around and find out

01:00:59

That they had lied all this time and they stand before their lord as being judged Let's do the judgment now

01:01:06

Let's do that hard thing now And let me let me throw a question that's in the chat over to probably frank, but rob, julie miller,

01:01:15

I don't know if it's rob or julie that's asking the question, but they say is there a Is there a readily available or reliable resource for parents that would educate them on recognizing grooming?

01:01:27

Do you know of any resources offhand? This is for anyone

01:01:34

It's been a it's been a little while you you justin may know Let me tell you this, okay, just everybody that ever hear this

01:01:42

Go to your local sheriff's department Every one of them has an agency or a part in in the sheriff's departments that they love to teach

01:01:51

They love to teach their the their communities how to protect their children They'll go to churches.

01:01:58

They'll go to home bible study groups They'll go anywhere they can and they have the resources

01:02:04

They deal with this 24 7 And i'm going to tell you go go to the sheriff's department They have the resources and the tools to help you identify

01:02:13

And create a program to deal with this Um, I would suggest that quickly

01:02:19

Okay, so so let me let me change gears and uh, but i'm going to throw this over to you um

01:02:27

You've been reading a bunch of the materials here. You you have some different angles you see with this

01:02:33

You and I address this from the spiritual abuse Angle on the rap report some other angles

01:02:42

What are your thoughts on this whole thing with robbie? Well, I mean I have a number of other things that maybe we can get to but I think

01:02:49

I want to summarize kind of What we've discussed that frank's talked about that justin peters and pastor justin have talked about In that you see this situation

01:02:59

Where an individual has built somewhat of a celebrity empire there is a board of directors who is financially

01:03:10

Reliant on that empire it is built around this individual that individual turns out to be

01:03:18

Lacking in integrity Just a few things. I mean you you deal with the issue of respect respect is earned

01:03:25

Now as christians we want to think the best we want to believe the best and hope the best But that does not mean that all our guards go down and in this case as you read the documentation that you posted from our show uh last week

01:03:40

You can see the guards weren't there. It wasn't there with the um With the board members and certainly with these ladies who had been groomed

01:03:49

Uh financially they're provided for then the obligation once that was put in place to request sex

01:03:57

Uh, then that took place one of the other things that you notice as you read through this is that there is sort of the equivalency of your allegiance to the celebrity

01:04:11

Reflects your allegiance to christ And if you see that that is a warning sign

01:04:17

You you need to run your allegiance to any individual in a ministerial standpoint

01:04:23

Only obligates you to support them so far as they follow christ. Does that know what paul told us?

01:04:29

But when they start telling you if you violate my confidence with you you're violating Confidence with christ.

01:04:36

That's a that's a huge issue and you see that in the documentation that we've we've got from uh, from this investigation um

01:04:47

There was a whole culture of fear. There was a culture of shame not on the part of ravi but fear in The people that he was manipulating the people that relied on him for an income

01:05:00

And certainly the victims of his abuse both spiritually and uh, physically and the shame was being pushed on them

01:05:07

Well, the shame was his it was not theirs. They're the victims Now the board is a different issue because they should have had oversight um and you back up from that a little bit even more and you see that We don't even have a church

01:05:22

Involved in this his denomination as justin peters mentioned, you know We knew some rumblings of this a few years ago and the denomination kind of said they looked at it

01:05:32

Oh, there's nothing there. We'll let it go um You know, this has just been a perfect storm but from another standpoint

01:05:41

Andrew you and I talked about what? uh Dr. MacArthur mentioned last friday,

01:05:47

I think in the master's university um Chapel service that I absolutely agree with this is a

01:05:56

As horrible as it is we feel for the family we feel for these people affected by it We certainly feel for the victims.

01:06:03

We should be praying for them But on the flip side of that, this is a glorious thing. The lord is clarifying.

01:06:09

He is bringing this out. He is showing us There is a false church And there is a true church

01:06:17

True church is going to exhibit the things that we see in scripture reflect

01:06:23

Godliness and holiness righteousness and the pursuit of christ in a lifestyle um, it is not um

01:06:32

And if it is absent, that's that's a big sign. It's a big blue I'll be quiet now

01:06:40

Yes The I think the thing though there's a let me put this up so people can know about this, uh deep deep dive discipleship

01:06:52

Said when someone asked about resources on guard by deep pak Raju is a resource that he said he had to read as a sunday school teacher

01:07:02

Uh, he's on staff at capitol hill baptist church in bc.

01:07:07

That's remarked ever served Uh, we'll get we'll say good morning to lorraine to lorraine is from the philippines.

01:07:16

She's just catching up with us So we thank you. Um You know, one of the things justin that I see with this that is um

01:07:26

Concerning to me Is the fact that we see so many people that just turned a blind eye

01:07:34

That you know, even if they're if they saw something they You know, maybe maybe it's just me or or just trusting ravi

01:07:44

As someone who is in full -time ministry you travel What is the danger?

01:07:50

of you know Not having people Like basically having a bunch of yes men around you.

01:07:57

What's I mean? What's the danger of not having people around you? That are willing to keep you accountable

01:08:05

Yeah, it's a there's a tremendous danger there of I mean

01:08:11

I for one want accountability. I want to be Above board. I want to be above reproach.

01:08:18

I I I would rather die Honestly, I would rather drop dead before this program is over Before I do anything to bring reproach on the name of christ or his gospel

01:08:32

Uh, and so the the very fact that uh that ravi did not surround himself with meaningful accountability

01:08:39

Uh speaks volumes about the state of his heart and the state of his soul. Um so I I mean

01:08:46

Yeah Accountability is important very vitally important and and he had none.

01:08:51

He had no meaningful accountability I mean, I honestly just in listening to y 'all talk if if I if I even

01:08:59

I I can't even imagine doing this but just for Kicks and giggles if I were to go to my board of directors both of whom are pastors

01:09:07

And say, um, hey guys, you know, i'm the cerebral palsy things just uh kind of hard to live with and I I really need a female masseuse to travel with me when

01:09:17

I go on my trips they would They would probably shut the ministry down before they even gave me a response

01:09:24

I mean like are you kidding me Like what what that's why

01:09:31

I say there's no way they the the staff Did not know what's going on?

01:09:39

But here let's let's flip the let's flip the script and and I want to play devil's advocate here but but listen, you said you told him that you need, you know, your your symptoms have gotten worse and you needed to have a physical therapist to travel um, you know and and what i'm saying is is that um

01:10:05

You're going to you're going to put feelers out That's the thing about sexual predators.

01:10:10

They're not going to they're they're cunning. I mean the devil's cunning and so That's the issue is if you had a physical therapist, you know, and again

01:10:22

Um, it could have been male. He could have had a male masseuse and we found out that ravi was a homosexual

01:10:28

And nobody would have questioned a male masseuse So let's go the opposite way um

01:10:34

And and you know again i'm not saying the board didn't know but what i'm saying is they they were in denial, um

01:10:45

Of of a lot of this and that's what i'm saying. It's not you know, it's easy hindsight's 2020 um, you know, and I what

01:10:55

I would say and argue is is that ravi Had been doing this all a lot longer than we know

01:11:02

Um, you know even going back I'm willing to bet and and the you know, it was a 13 -page report and they said they only talked to one person

01:11:10

The guy had multiple cell phones um Multiple cell phones multiple i'm sure multiple different books of people's names even have phrases

01:11:21

Uh his cell phone that could even if he couldn't speak the language he could give the phrase yeah, um to that um

01:11:31

Frank explain some of the phrases that he wanted to know

01:11:38

If you if you know nine, it's on page nine Some of the phrases he would have that he memorized in multiple languages were go lower

01:11:49

You know, so he's getting a massage So so you see he wanted to be able to in these different languages communicate to to these

01:12:00

Thai and mandarin. Yeah, let me uh, Let me let me just I want to read one scripture and one

01:12:07

And then I want to read something from the report because You know,

01:12:12

I I think as we're doing discernment and One of the things i've heard a lot

01:12:19

Since the podcast my rapper for podcast the part that I did on this issue people were like hey, he died

01:12:25

Just give it a rest Like why are you discussing it now? Like it's over and they just they want to give a pass um for for what went on Now what you're not hearing with any of the six of us so far tonight is rejoicing

01:12:41

Okay, there are discernment bloggers that rejoice at things like this because oh they get someone they can go after you don't hear

01:12:48

Rejoicing and you shouldn't from a good discernment blogger or discernment ministry

01:12:56

This is what paul says in philippians chapter 3 verse 17 the the main verses is 18, but brethren

01:13:04

Join in following my example and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us

01:13:11

For many walk of whom i've often told you and now tell you even weeping

01:13:17

That they are enemies of the cross of christ. Now. This is the difference that you see with real

01:13:24

Good discernment ministries and some of the others It's that phrase even weeping

01:13:31

You're hearing it in the voice of some of the guys. You're seeing it on justin's face. He can't hide it as he's hearing things um

01:13:37

It's it's it's painful For someone who loves christ to listen to this stuff and have to bring this to you

01:13:45

I want to i'm going to read one thing. I want you guys to interact with this is from the the investigation that was done and And out of the whole thing this one paragraph is the one that bothers me the most because what it reflects in here is how

01:14:00

For some people who still want to give robbie zacharias a pass What I see here is beyond the grooming.

01:14:06

We're going to see some of that in this where he puts the responsibility on the woman Who are not saying anything because people's souls are at stake, but I want you to see how robbie used um his own uh

01:14:23

Used religion as the means to groom people And and then used it as a way of basically, you know, not only silencing them but how he used religion

01:14:35

To to get greater control Okay But i'm gonna i'm gonna mute you because you're you're old school and you have all the papers there so We're here

01:14:44

Uh, so here so this is what from from um You know from the investigation quote

01:14:53

This witness told us that their relationship began as a normal massage therapist client relationship and she came to think of him

01:15:00

As a father figure he elicited information about her faith and her financial situation

01:15:08

She reported that after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support

01:15:14

He required sex from her according to the witness. Mr. Zacharias used religious expressions to gain compliance

01:15:23

As she was raised to be a person of faith She reported that he made her pray

01:15:31

With him to thank god for the quote opportunity unquote They both received

01:15:39

She said he called her his quote reward unquote for living a life of service god and Reference that the quote godly men unquote in the bible with many uh

01:15:54

In the bible with many than one with more than one wife She said she warned

01:16:02

Uh, she said he warned her not even not ever to speak against him or she she

01:16:09

Would be responsible for the quote millions of souls unquote whose salvation would be lost

01:16:17

If his reputation was damaged What do you guys think about that? Who wants to go first?

01:16:23

You know Let me say this first I I think what bugs me most about this is that Ravi has passed away and can't answer for this stuff true, right and that's a major issue because Because we don't know the certain truth

01:16:40

Now there's a lot of similarities between all these stories that we're reading about Ravi and i'm sure that there is a major Major issues that have happened.

01:16:47

I really wish we could hear Ravi And this is why I keep going back to the issue of the ministry

01:16:53

They knew back in 2015 with with the uh, the lawsuit that they had sealed

01:16:59

And uh, she got a settlement for and nothing was ever changed within the ministry So in what you said andrew, it's horrific.

01:17:07

If that's all true. It's horrific And uh, i'm sure that most of it is if not all of it is true um,

01:17:14

I just I just I can't We do know some of his response though And he responded in 2017 and his response for folks who don't know that response right when when lori thompson came out explaining details

01:17:27

The response was he actually came up with a story and said that the husband had put the wife up to Tempting him and trying to elicit sex from him so that they could try to sue him for money

01:17:46

And and so he he basically drove a wedge in their marriage got and then he went on on you know christianity today and all these other places saying that the the husband

01:17:57

Mastermind this whole thing and then pimped his wife To try to trap him.

01:18:03

So we do know now that we know that you know That that that story was was accurate with there's confirmation with the other stories

01:18:11

You we do know how he responded to it it was to To ignore and attack the the person that's trying to bring truth to light.

01:18:19

Yeah, so I would agree with you there Yeah, so i'll say it's one thing we'll write to frank it's

01:18:25

I still go back then to the ministry Where was the ministry in all this stuff? It's really convenient for the ministry to step back and say well, you know what?

01:18:34

We got to do private investigation. Now. We have to do this. We have to do this You know what you guys should all resign be done and that's it

01:18:42

Because they've they've had plenty of chances for all this So i'm, sorry go on frank no, no,

01:18:50

I i'm I you know going going back. Um, I kind of lost my my train of thought and i'll try if I pick up here um the issue with the women that uh was in In that he's picking again is not

01:19:09

It's not like he was picking the average, you know, christian woman, right? Right. Um, he's he's he's he's picking women who are vulnerable

01:19:19

And so that that's part of the situation but part of the don't tell um

01:19:25

It's it's it's crazy to me that he's using The guilt game as we call it.

01:19:31

It's the same, you know 90 Percent of the perpetrators i've dealt with who who deal with kids is um, if you share our secret

01:19:42

Because that's a cover -up um Your mother seems to be heard. They won't let me see you again.

01:19:47

I'll go to jail Um, you're the one that's responsible for this and notice he put the blame on them

01:19:54

He's not only sexually abusing them, but he's spiritually using them now, too um and And you know y 'all dealt with spiritual abuse on several uh episodes, uh, whether he was into sexual or not spiritual abuse, um

01:20:10

Is is just as devastating. So in this context he's using not only um uh sexual abuse, but Spiritual abuse to get them to comply and again

01:20:23

How much does ravi zacharias? um in his mind at the time

01:20:30

Believe and rationalize what he did. This is one of the questions I always ask is

01:20:38

Which one is the real ravi zacharias? Is it ravi zacharias that we hear and see and everybody trusts and believes?

01:20:46

Or is it the the the the sexual abuser? behind the scenes

01:20:53

Um that we don't know And you have two different people Um the world that sees ravi zacharias and then you see these women

01:21:02

Who are seeing man this guy? He's this famous preacher And he's giving me spiritual advice and he's he's

01:21:11

He's wanting the sexuality Um, and then you have the board members who are seeing glimpses of both

01:21:19

But they're seeing more of the ravi, you know that public sees and the glimpses of the other

01:21:24

And you know, how much of that do we want to believe Um How much how much do you want to believe how much if we take scripture and say thinks no evil

01:21:39

Right. Yeah um in that in that kind of circumstance when we we uh friend, you know a friend at all times so here ravi zacharias has

01:21:48

People who have known him all their life And they're having to try to skate and go through all this and see okay

01:21:55

What what's it here? And my question to y 'all is When the me too movement came out how how many of us?

01:22:04

Bought into the me too movement all the way in When this first came out a lot of people said man, she's just me too and ravi

01:22:15

And you know and and so i'm just saying it's easy for a lot of people to go and look back and say um

01:22:23

Well, you know now of course, but at the time it's ravi zacharias and you're you're going what's true who's true

01:22:30

Why should I believe this woman of ravi zacharias? and you know and I would say

01:22:37

What's that Because he's a celebrity. I mean, he's got that status. Yeah No, that's that's what i'm saying, you know again if some woman came out and and accused any of y 'all

01:22:50

You know, I might say hey what's going on here and you deny it say frank, um,

01:22:55

I don't even know what you're talking about I'm gonna side with you You're my friend.

01:23:01

I'm gonna side with you before that now as more evidence comes into light and i've had a similar situation and um anthony and um um

01:23:11

Andrew both know a situation that happened with me with a pastor friend of mine and I was

01:23:20

I sided with him early on But as the evidence mounted and I went to him and I told him

01:23:26

I said I have your back Until I find out you lied to me when

01:23:32

I find out you lied to me I'm going to i'm going to understand i'm going to go And i'm going to make sure you're not in the ministry anymore and And he lied and so that was it

01:23:47

Um And I told him I told him from the very beginning Um, don't lie to me if you if you're you're telling me the truth that this did not happen i'll have your back

01:23:57

Because you've been my friend for 20 years Yeah, right But the evidence mounted and kept mounting and I I had multiple people

01:24:06

And that he lied and so how can you stand with as the evidence mounts and I get why they probably stood

01:24:12

Robbie early on Because I would have if I if it had been Andrew and I was on the board I would have stood with Andrew early on until more and more evidence started coming out and then

01:24:22

I can You know wait the lies of what Andrew told me versus what truth is coming out.

01:24:29

I mean and that's how you have to discern it I think it's just me personally Yeah, so frank, so I guess that's the question right is the the initial thing that is at least publicizes in 2015

01:24:41

The settlement and and ravi, um Speaking out against her and her husband was in 2017

01:24:51

But in the meantime, he's traveling with masseuses He's he's he's invested in massage parlors like all this stuff is going on in the meantime

01:24:59

Should that have caused enough questions to be asked? itself well again um

01:25:08

I had massages I agree, right? Well, I I know and and and you know, and You know,

01:25:17

I mean I could say, you know again um, you know, I I understand

01:25:23

I get I get how um early on if It starts you start to question at some point you question because what

01:25:34

I find is is that The truth is eventually going to slowly come out and you're going to have lied

01:25:41

Uh, and the lies are not going to match what the more and more truth comes out, but you can't cover it up Be sure your sin will find you out

01:25:50

Um, it's going it's going to eventually come out if you if you don't deal with it Let me ask this question something bud uh brought up on the show and i'm sure justin might want to You know to address as well people are saying well, can we still use his books and stuff and Put up this comment as well in earlier, uh that ravi also claimed he was never unfaithful to his wife

01:26:16

Um, but you brought this up on the show I want to give you and then justin a chance to respond and then we have someone else in the backstage we'll bring in so but you know, you you brought this out on our show that He even while doing this was claiming he was faithful to his wife

01:26:32

Yeah, and that's in the miller and martin report the investigation that was done and i'll just read the quote, uh from 2017

01:26:39

So this is later on Uh quote in my 45 years of marriage to margie.

01:26:44

I have never engaged in any inappropriate behavior of any kind Um, so that's where he was at least three years before his death in may of 2020 um but Uh To the issue of using his resources.

01:27:02

No And mainly because I mean the books of his that I have read. I haven't watched a whole lot of ravi

01:27:08

The guy doesn't go to scripture. The guy is going to philosophy um You know

01:27:14

Yeah, i'm, sorry philosophy is not going to save you Even if it's even if it's logical, even if it's makes makes sense.

01:27:22

I mean I studied philosophy in college Yeah, there's value to it. But the holy spirit works through the word.

01:27:27

He works through the gospel And that's one of the glaring Uh areas that is absent in his teaching and in the books that I have read

01:27:37

So that's a problem But the point that I made andrew that that i'd like justin peters to to follow up with you don't need to use his books but if you happen to be a believer who was

01:27:50

Who ravi? Zacharias may have been a means that the lord used to move you to the gospel

01:27:56

To truly regenerate you where you repent and believe Your salvation is not in jeopardy because your salvation is not based on the means the lord used.

01:28:06

It's based on the truth of christ um so so don't You know if if you're listening to this and you wonder oh my goodness

01:28:14

I was a big fan and and I really learned a lot great. You learned a lot your salvation is in christ

01:28:21

It is not in the minister or the ministry that the lord may have used to bring you to that point

01:28:31

Justin Yeah, I echo because I you know, I get asked pretty frequently people say well

01:28:37

When I got saved in a charismatic word of faith church I i've had people even tell me they believe they got saved in the benny hinn crusade

01:28:43

And I have heard benny hinn present enough of the gospel For god to use that to bring one of his own to himself.

01:28:51

It does not validate benny hinn Benny hinn still a false prophet on it by every biblical definition of the term.

01:28:57

So I Give a hearty. Amen to what bud just said that if if god and his providence uh used something that Ravi said to in some way

01:29:12

Points you to the gospel. It's uh, your salvation rests in christ not in ravi Now that happened just while we've been doing the show

01:29:19

I actually pulled up that miller report and was scanning through some of the highlights of it There there's no way around this

01:29:28

Yeah, there is no way around this They have pictures to over 200 pictures of partially to completely nude women

01:29:42

On ravi. Zacharias's devices. He had over 200 contacts of uh,

01:29:49

Of of masseuses. What's the plural of masseuses masseuses masseuse? I was whatever

01:29:55

Massage Yeah, uh, he had over 200 of these in his phone they have uh, statements, you know of him, uh, talking to these women and Talking to them in sexual terms and I ain't no getting around this ain't no denying this

01:30:18

That I'm, i'm just gonna i'm just gonna say this and i'll I don't even know well

01:30:26

There's no way the man was saved That's right. There's no way the man was saved there.

01:30:32

I mean first corinthian six Podcast and people were blasting me for it.

01:30:37

There's no way I do not be deceived

01:30:44

Neither fornicators nor adulterers nor idolaters nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor revilers nor covetous nor swindlers

01:30:52

Will inherit the kingdom of god That's right. I mean he was doing this apparently up until a

01:30:58

A few months before he died. Well until he got too sick dying of cancer.

01:31:03

He was still doing it Where is the evidence of the holy spirit of god in this man's life? Yeah, I mean he was doing this justin up until he got sick too sick to continue and he was now homebound so It's not like it's the gospel

01:31:17

It cheapens the gospel to say that this man was a regenerate person

01:31:24

That is a cheapening of the gospel. The holy spirit of god is not a weakling if he's strong enough to save us he is strong enough to sanctify us and And christians stumble into sin

01:31:35

Christians don't swim in it. My goodness. This man. He wasn't just swimming in sin. He had a scuba suit on I mean

01:31:46

I love how justice Well, let me uh

01:31:55

We have a guest in the backstage, uh, I guess he would he would be technically my little brother because he calls me his big brother but uh

01:32:03

Kofi, how are you? I'm doing well, so good to see you brothers You definitely have better looks in that relationship

01:32:11

I just want you to know that And and that that would go for you know you compared to anthony as well so Oh I know you've been listening in you know, what are you?

01:32:28

What are your thoughts? I know you've been up to date with some of this stuff with ravi Um, I mean my my initial thoughts when all this broke was just heartbreak um heartbreak for First and foremost the name of christ is like oh great

01:32:44

Another high profile minister who has fallen in such a public In fact calling it a fall is actually insulting because These were calculated decisions one of the things that my wife and I were talking about when all this came out

01:32:59

It was just the reality that this wasn't a one time Okay But moment of weakness if you wanted to use that language

01:33:09

This was a pattern of predatory behavior going back years yes, yeah and Just the heartbreak that okay.

01:33:19

This is someone who meanwhile was traveling the world proclaiming the name of christ I've only heard

01:33:24

I only heard ravi zacharias speak one time in person It was a ligonier conference in seattle, let's see 2018

01:33:32

Yeah 2018 Like and people came from all over for that conference primarily to hear ravi zacharias like this man's name had pulled

01:33:42

And now we fast forward two years And all this has come almost three years and all this is coming out in just a horrific fashion

01:33:51

So heartbreak for the name of christ heartbreak for you know, again, I don't know how much his family knew

01:33:57

And that raises some questions, especially with the daughter who's on the board of the ministry. How much did they know? I'm going to try and believe the best and say his own wife didn't know this

01:34:07

If that's the case, well One thing with that kofi though. His wife was his wife and daughter were on the board of directors

01:34:16

In 2017 and the daughter was the director of the spa

01:34:23

Where he was where he was doing all this The daughter I think knew more than Most folks is why okay.

01:34:30

I didn't know his wife was on the board. So that's interesting you know, but heartbreak for that family heartbreak for The people in the ministry who

01:34:37

I had to imagine there were some people who had no idea this was happening God said I think a lot of people need to ask questions.

01:34:42

How do we not notice? But you know, I for example, I know people who work for what what used to be rzim uk the zacharias trust

01:34:50

And obviously they've separated themselves entirely. I want to rename the ministry and just put all that in the past um

01:34:57

So heartbreak for them heartbreak for the victims, you know, I feel for is it laurianne?

01:35:04

Is it thompson her name? Yes, um who? Basically has been sadly proved, right?

01:35:11

One of one of the things that I didn't get to on the rap report podcast with laurianne is They still have an nda a non -disclosure agreement

01:35:20

Don't even stop me on that And they will not release her even in light of all this they still will not release her

01:35:28

He's he's died. In fact, I would argue he broke the non -disclosure agreement

01:35:34

When once they made it and he went to christianity today and started coming up with stories bashing them

01:35:40

So I think he broke that agreement because they weren't supposed to talk about it period And so she still gagged she still has this gag order on her where she can't speak about it

01:35:51

And yet and and it's the executor Of his of his estate, which i'm going to assume is his wife

01:35:59

So if that's the case then it's it's his wife or whoever is the executor of the estate That will not release laurie thompson to speak on this and And you know, that's that's a good point and that Itself is disturbing.

01:36:14

It's like okay you're willing to oh, there's my son, by the way, where is it? Yeah Big man.

01:36:22

Oh, he's yeah. Um, he's huge Um, is it again

01:36:29

I could just feel a heartbreak initially But then I started to read the report

01:36:35

Um, I took an hour or so late at night one night and just read through it And then as just indignation it's like okay, hold on This man was using ministry funds to fund this perverse lifestyle

01:36:49

He was invoking the name of christ to do so Covering it up for years using every manipulative tactic in the book to cover all of this

01:37:02

Meanwhile people on the internet and this is why I wanted to jump on for a minute People on the internet well, he's dead.

01:37:09

You can't talk about it now. Let him rest god is his judge. Um, My bible says in 1 timothy 5 24 that some men sins.

01:37:18

Um, Some in some men's sins are obvious preceding them before judgment and some men's sins follow after He managed to get away with it in this life

01:37:29

As it were like he died of nobody knowing but now that stuff has come out And if that stuff has come out it now needs to be dealt with publicly because Last I checked this man was an ordained minister of the denomination.

01:37:41

I don't know what exact links he had with this Christian and missionary alliance, but this is a man who professed to be a minister of the gospel

01:37:48

Who had a very public ministry and now all this stuff has come out in public And no,

01:37:53

I don't think this is for the sermon bloggers to try and get hits on their websites and what have you But we do need to talk about this stuff publicly

01:38:01

Because these are very real people who've been affected by this well, um real church has been affected by this, you know, kofi um, so if you made me you made me think about something there's a

01:38:13

You know the theology of rewards and punishments. Um in the right words and others how to talk about and you know, i've heard this that Your ministry lives on after you and part of your rewards and heaven is not just your rewards up until you die

01:38:31

It's it's it's your also your legacy Of the gospel of the people that you share the gospel and your legacy

01:38:39

Of people who read your materials and you're listening to your sermons and the number of people come to christ, you know

01:38:44

Long after you're gone And you made me just kind of wonder about this.

01:38:50

Does that mean? If there's this idea of punishments Uh, is your punishment still being stored up because of your sins you left behind that's now bringing reproach upon the name of christ

01:39:05

Just one of those things to kind of throw that back as a theological thing. What do y 'all think about that?

01:39:13

I think he's standing before god and he's going to face judgment as the scripture is clear that He's going to stand before god on the final day

01:39:23

And he's going to be screaming out lord lord Have I not done all these things in your mighty name? And he's going to say depart from me you work of iniquity for I never knew you this is

01:39:33

This is violence. It's Titus titus 2, you know tells us to try to to show ourselves an example

01:39:43

And this man showed an example of violence that he hid himself You know frank you were talking about earlier about this grooming

01:39:52

And what I want to point out is andrew and justin, uh, frank you guys

01:39:58

You have this thing set up for accountability And you have leadership set up for accountability where you talk about pastors and godly men

01:40:07

Who won't put up with your silliness? They won't put up with you playing around and playing games and fasting with christianity

01:40:15

They won't they're not gonna put up with it, you know, i'm gonna tell you Andrew does something like this one time i'm out i'm gone

01:40:22

Okay, and i'll make sure everybody knows it while i'm trying to burn out the doors You know if I did that he'd do the same to me

01:40:29

It's because we love each other and we love god more We love the body of christ. It's that important.

01:40:35

We also have accountability within the body of christ the church But what you see here is you see a person

01:40:41

Who has set up a board with no accountability It's a board that he leads that he grooms that he teaches

01:40:49

And they're the ones that are supposed to be Overseeing him and yet he's telling them what's approvable.

01:40:55

What's acceptable? um all the wicked things he's doing, uh being angry at people and shunning them for you know, what is

01:41:04

Laying them off and and not letting them have a voice whenever he would say something Uh, or whenever they would say something to him

01:41:11

This is all the conduct Of someone who is staging himself to be uh

01:41:19

You know untouchable If they're untouchable and so they can get by with anything you want to in this report it talks about going back to 2010

01:41:29

It goes back to 2010 this stuff's been going on for I don't know how many years But but nobody in the board

01:41:37

Would question him because he staged this with victims That he has on his board

01:41:45

Guys, this is not talking about godly men who are able to stand up to him and say you are the man

01:41:51

You're wrong This is talking about weak Weak -willed people that that have no backbone

01:41:59

And they they love this this idea of this glorified ministry And so they're willing to let him get by with anything he wants to get by with And it is disgusting.

01:42:09

It's vile, you know, I just Oh, well, let me tell you let me tell you

01:42:15

Uh a story of justin you'll remember this there there i'm not going to name who this person is, but there there's a very well -known person where something had happened and You know it just a tense situation where he didn't think through it in prepare and Said something that wasn't true and You know

01:42:38

Justin, you'll remember I I mentioned it to you. I was concerned. I mentioned it to anthony he we were there he was there at the time not exactly there but And I I was just struggling because this is a very well -known person

01:42:54

And I was like, you know, is it something that I need to confront him on and justin you You when

01:43:00

I told you you were like, well, yeah, you need to call him i'm, like Ah, but like is it son? I could just let go because it wasn't a big deal wasn't like we're talking about ravi and this is you know, also folks for the character you understand who like Who justin is but justin you called me like one or two times after that?

01:43:18

And and anthony called me once after asking did I go to the person yet? Did I actually follow up?

01:43:24

That was the accountability I I needed right so that it made sure I went and did what

01:43:30

I needed to do is go Verify this story to make sure I knew what happened And you know, so I ended up calling him and said hey, you know we were out this is what you said and It's not you know, like can you explain this and and he was just like well

01:43:47

You know, this is what happened and he he explained he said it was wrong But I I shouldn't have done it. I it wasn't exactly true and you know

01:43:56

Asked forgiveness and you know, it was better afterwards. I mean in you know, like now I know

01:44:01

I can go to him With things and he's he he receives it. Well um,

01:44:06

I also know that You know, I have guys like justin and anthony who if i'm going to say hey like someone did something

01:44:14

They're going to make sure I actually follow through in biblical principles Even if I don't want to because be honest with you guys

01:44:21

Sometimes we don't want to Yeah Think about the person that may know about this.

01:44:27

Do you think they want to go and confront? Ravi Zacharias? Especially if they know he gets angry with people right

01:44:35

So okay. So and first of all your video stopped working andrew, so we see you just kind of uh, okay good

01:44:41

Yeah, it's not it's not moving. So Okay, this is not going to be very long but So, okay as we're as they're tracing the history we're talking about the the report now and we're looking back right on And hindsight 2020 we're seeing all this stuff.

01:44:57

So to you frank to what you said earlier We're seeing these things we're putting them together And maybe people wouldn't have questioned it as much at the time but What about the issues going even further back?

01:45:11

Ravi doesn't preach the gospel Ravi as as either butter kofi said uses tons of philosophy

01:45:18

When people asked me at conferences when I would teach adam and say hey, what do you think about ravi?

01:45:24

I always said I don't like him always have said that and my reason why is because The worst one of all was this he was asked is jesus the only way in front of a large crowd

01:45:38

And he gave a five -minute diatribe of of philosophical nonsense

01:45:44

Before he never really answering it never really answered the question by the end of it He did the same thing when he was asked about catholics if they were really christians

01:45:52

I know todd friel mentioned this on his show not 20 days ago. I heard that too did the same thing.

01:45:58

Um, Where was anybody to call him out on the carpet? You're you're a top apologist and you can't even answer the simplest most basic questions of christianity.

01:46:06

That's a problem Andrew, you just brought up linda yost. Um, he also lied about his credentials. I was going to bring that up next

01:46:12

What about the fact that he has lied about numerous credentials? Where is where is his his ministry partners

01:46:21

Forcing him to write large, uh, or be able to write apology letters Publicly where it's publicly known and broadcast that he had lied

01:46:31

And he did this on multiple occasions as well. So to justin's, uh, justin peter's point You look back at the entire history of it.

01:46:39

I have a really hard time believing he saved It's it's not just the women thing, right? It's it's the whole package that we're seeing

01:46:46

This isn't somebody who as some people out there are saying this is just okay. This is his this is his sin

01:46:53

He really struggled with it. No, it's way more than that. It's way more than that It's way more than that with just the women let alone the credential the lying about credentials as well as His issues of being able to just give simple answers to basic christian questions and And clergy talk is saying, uh, wow,

01:47:14

I didn't know he lied about his credentials. I I went through this on the rap report Where real quick just to give people the background on that that may not know

01:47:22

He claimed he got a doctorate degree and taught at a university And that university came out and said he never attended

01:47:31

Any classes at that university and never was was paid uh For for those classes, so he had to remove that from his his resume um

01:47:40

So yeah, that's what it's talking about. So who? Justin, were you did you want to address that what anthony said?

01:47:47

Yeah, no anthony's right. I Can I ask justin a question? Yeah, sure

01:47:53

I want to ask justin a question that so justin the more I listen to this are we dealing with an intellectual benny hen then?

01:48:03

Yeah, that's probably a pretty good way to put that frank. Um Yeah, benny hen is a is a charlatan a showman a fake.

01:48:11

Um Yeah, I mean ravi was an intellectual that's probably a pretty good way to put it an intellectual benny hen um

01:48:20

Yeah, I mean there's really from what I can tell there's really no area of his life that was not touched with deceit and fraud

01:48:29

Um and and anthony's exactly right in what he said about uh, i've heard the same thing from Ravi cannot give a straight answer

01:48:38

About the most basic elements of the gospel. Is jesus the only way to be saved? Uh Yeah Next question.

01:48:46

I mean that's like is the sky blue? Yeah hard that's not a hard question and you know for for those people that would say that ravi was

01:48:57

Well, he was struggling with sin This appears to be an unbroken pattern over who knows how many years

01:49:07

The only thing he struggled with was struggling to keep it hidden That was his only struggle which in itself is sin.

01:49:15

Think of the deception that had to be created for him to continue with You know the name to sin that we're aware of But you go back, you know one of the things that anthony mentioned and and I was thinking too

01:49:31

You go back in to the distant past 10 years ago 12 years ago and you read Some of what ravi was doing

01:49:38

Theologically, he's endorsing guys like on renew end all this, uh spiritual uh

01:49:45

Formation and contemplative prayer and you see that you see him endorsing people like joyce meyer is a great bible teacher

01:49:52

I mean there is a pattern of Unsound theology all the way through. Well, if you don't have the grounding and the truth of the word um

01:50:01

There's nothing to keep you from where you've gone um Tragic, uh, so yeah, if you're if you're following a ministry like that make sure they're preaching christ

01:50:13

Make sure that the ministry's In christ not in the celebrity that leads it

01:50:19

Well, yeah, wouldn't they be obligated to have? Um, I mean if the basic, uh standard for being in ministry, uh, let's just say pastoral memory um

01:50:32

Of whatever form he was in. I don't know what denomination he was part of or or what? I don't know

01:50:38

Christian missionary alliance Okay, okay. Um Still the bible tells us the standards for being in pastoral ministry if you're going to To to strive for this.

01:50:51

That's a good thing It's a good thing to struggle for it and fight for it then live up to the qualifications

01:50:57

Be above reproach the husband of one wife be the man that your god has called you to be

01:51:04

Able to handle the word of god rightly dividing it, you know The bible is is not just there for us to just pick and choose what we like You know, it's there it's there for our guide our help.

01:51:17

It's our it's our model is to teach us Who is qualified and who is not and I think what's what's so tragic here is

01:51:26

We have so many frank said it, you know earlier we have so many Uh big name people justin.

01:51:34

You said it as well Big name people that jumped on there and said, you know, this is ravi.

01:51:39

Zacharias Who cares? Yeah, i'm, sorry john mccarthur. Look I love john mccarthur

01:51:45

You know as much as anybody but if he was to jump into this bandwagon and start doing this stuff

01:51:52

He needs to be corrected too. It's it's not that we we look at ravi. Zacharias and say oh let's get him.

01:51:59

No, it's Lord in heaven let this man come to true repentance before he meets you as judge

01:52:06

You know He needs to be right with god because he's going to stand Before god and be judged and burn in hell for eternity because what he did and what he's done

01:52:14

Is just just as wicked and depraved as the things that everybody on this panel has done in their lives apart from christ

01:52:23

The the difference is jesus christ You know and the gospel of christ that saved our souls

01:52:30

Every evidence here. I agree with justin every evidence here is that is that he has he is standing

01:52:38

Under judgment and he will never see the gospel come to save his soul again Yeah, well and I want to i'm sorry go ahead justin

01:52:49

Oh, no, I I I said the I I guess the only Slight qualification

01:52:55

I would put to my assertion that ravi, uh is is not in heaven There's no evidence that he was a believer.

01:53:00

I still say there's no evidence He's the only way that that man is in heaven right now Is if like I guess quite literally on his deathbed deathbed that god granted him faith and repentance but barring that there is

01:53:16

Nothing in this man's life Nothing to make anyone think that he was a regenerate new creation in christ

01:53:26

Yeah Yeah, I mean that's the thing that I had I had said I I don't Look we can't know another person's heart granted i'll agree with that But what is it?

01:53:35

We we do we inspect the fruit. We look at the fruit of their of of their life and Uh, and I don't know who here said it tonight, but you you think about ravi.

01:53:47

Zacharias and you're talking about a man who Up until until he was too sick to be able to continue

01:53:57

This kind of behavior He continued it and he covered it up and I mean, you know,

01:54:04

I guess for me the the audacity of Here he is when he he was so sick

01:54:11

And there's all these pictures that you now see of him and his wife Cuddling together And it's so romantic and he he's praising their marriage

01:54:20

And he was covering all this up Like It should have been a time that he at least before his death said let me come clean

01:54:29

You know exactly I want to I want to just uh I want to finish

01:54:36

I want to bring up. Um, obviously uh real quick three things I point out in counseling and It's directly related, uh to scripture in regards to david

01:54:48

Um there if you notice throughout the bafshiba uh situation with david is that all started with with his thinking his thinking that he um

01:54:59

That he was the king Uh, he was no longer accountable to anyone. He saw bashiba.

01:55:06

He thought about her About her and then he moved into the behavior the sexual behavior the indiscriminate sexual behavior the adultery

01:55:14

Uh with her and immediately following that there was nothing but seeking cover up and That's pattern of pretty much all sexual sin is your thinking

01:55:26

Uh becomes clouded usually because you're thinking about yourself your own needs and not anybody else's um and then your sexual behavior or compulsions um override um

01:55:39

With sin and then you're going to try to cover it up But one thing that it becomes important and we think about this with ravi zacharias

01:55:47

David showed no repentance either until nathan showed up um

01:55:53

And we all need to be careful of that and pray that if we are caught up in something

01:55:59

That god sends a nathan to us And that he doesn't let us get up on our deathbed and nobody going to us then his board of directors should have been nathan

01:56:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right good point That is a good point well it is uh it's it's

01:56:21

Almost it's time to wrap up. I don't know. Um, if anyone else any closing things anyone else wants to make uh any comments other than anthony because anthony

01:56:33

Anthony always has some Yeah, anthony always has something I have an unrelated to the ravi story.

01:56:41

I just Looked at twitter and tom askel from founders and ministries about an hour ago Uh tweeted praise god for his mercy to the bochum's

01:56:49

Uh, the procedure for vodie went well and he is resting so not I know a lot of saints have been praying about his situation

01:56:56

So that is uh, that is good news to hear That is good. Thank you for that Um Well, I will say this andrew doesn't know this yet, but we're going to do a special apologetics live show on sunday night

01:57:11

And we're going to be critiquing a pastor from new jersey Who uh, who's a pastor of a large church?

01:57:18

That uh has just butchered creation in front of his congregation So so we've got we've got about 17 clips.

01:57:25

We're going to walk through and and uh, and and we're going to talk about it And who made this decision?

01:57:32

I The accountability board evidently Frank, I think you and I need to veto his uh

01:57:42

So for those of you who miss anthony time tonight you're going to get sunday night well, there are

01:57:48

You know atomic apologists is uh demanding anthony time Uh, there were some other calls for anthony time.

01:57:54

We had humble clay said hey since anthony was running late I think anthony time is in order we could even change the the uh the content discussed

01:58:06

So, um, and and here's uh, here's someone else that we we know brian simmons is saying yes to that so, uh, someone that uh

01:58:16

That we've several of us have gotten to know um But uh with that I want to thank you guys for coming in weighing in on this

01:58:24

This was not a fun or easy topic to discuss not you know, this is why I read that passage out of philippians three

01:58:32

Uh, this is it's a more of a heartbreaking thing to have to deal with um and it's it's not something that Any of us are coming to with glee and joy and can't wait to to discuss it um, but so sunday night anthony will uh

01:58:51

We'll we'll I guess have something about uh, An anti -creation pastor that's that's out there.

01:58:57

Uh, we do sometimes do this. We we did the one with um, uh Pastor coats with the guys from matter of theology to give some a live show

01:59:05

So, uh, we'll be back here next thursday. Um, And I I actually i'll i'll put pastor justin on the spot.

01:59:14

I I think next thursday Uh anthony's not going to be able to be here Uh, and the the thursday after that on the 11th is we're going to have a special guest uh talking biblical counseling and that's going to be with A fellow named chris komeda.

01:59:32

He is a biblical counselor. So that is on the 11th Uh, justin, I'll bang our heads together and figure out what we'll be discussing next week

01:59:41

But folks we would love for you to come in and ask questions. That is the the best thing to do that way we

01:59:46

Uh have you in and get to answer questions. This is a live show for that reason. So Um, so we can answer your questions or challenges

01:59:54

Uh, there was supposed to be someone that was supposed to come in and challenge me on calvinism

02:00:01

But I guess he didn't show He wasn't predestined. He wasn't predestined to do it.

02:00:07

So folks we thank you and uh, we'll just we're going to end with a uh, just giving you a um a little bit of an an advertisement for our christian podcast community, so The christian podcast community

02:00:23

Is a cohesive group of like -minded christian podcasters Proclaiming the truths of christ truths of christ with expertise and passion in the areas of theology church history christian living evangelism apologetics parenting homeschooling sermons and much much more

02:00:52

So check us out at christianpodcastcommunity .org

02:01:03

One stop for all your favorite christian podcasts The quote of the night frank mullis