Seeking Consistency in our theological systems, then Open Phones

And welcome to the program this afternoon, my name is James white beautiful day here in Phoenix, Arizona We're actually currently it is 77 degrees it has been beautiful recently we scheduled winter in for a day or two and now we're into spring and Will be for the next couple months, and then it just goes from there

It's I had to turn the air conditioning on in the car today once I got into it

It was a little bit on the warm side That's just the way things are out here and now the days start getting longer it starts getting hotter

And that's just how it works anyways welcome to the dividing line today Our phone number here is eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three thirty three

Forty -one is the toll -free number for you to participate in the program today

When people ask Concerning the topic of the program which happens frequently.

I have a little pop -up I just simply type slash topic, and it says the topic is religious stuff

That's how I avoid Spending the entire last half hour Doing one of two things either explaining what the topics going to be which

I generally don't know At that particular point in time or explaining how to tell time

And the differences between time zones those are the two things that would take up the half hour between 1 30 and 2 o 'clock every day

Every Saturday that is when we do the dividing line because they're just there's just issues there. I'm not really sure what they are but anyways

And many times I don't really have a specific topic If I have been working on if you know if I've got someone's

Recorded program if I had for example Downloaded a Catholic answers radio program or something

I'd have certain clips and so sometimes we have specific Topics that that we're ready to address, and I won't be taking phone calls, but we will take phone calls today at eight seven seven seven five three

Thirty three forty one the only Specific thing on my on my mind today as I was thinking about the program

Was the fact that As as I've been dealing with things this week dealing with various issues

Upcoming debates and looks like the fact that it's got an email just a few minutes ago. I haven't even had a chance to finish reading it somebody wants to debate on Seventh -day

Adventism, and I just I just Not not at all Interested in that as they would see what's what they want to talk about Sabbath Sabbath Sabbath that's all

I want to talk about and and In fact this guy looks familiar dr. Samuel Paciocchi, but Paciocchi, whatever graduate from the

Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome That must have been interesting No, I have absolutely no interest in that particular topic at all anyways

But we have possibilities of other topics as well Many debates coming up this this coming year no no two ways about it

But as I've been thinking about those issues the consistency the need for consistency in theology has again

Crossed my mind as something that's extremely important and I Have to admit there are times when

I I Talk about this subject, and I can just see the the eyes rolling on the part of certain individuals

And I can see this in classes not not really in in my church thankfully but I can see in in many places where I go and I'm asked to speak

I can see the eyes rolling and I can see people going how they sort of do them

The watch check thing you know where you sort of look at it, and you go well You know this guy can't be he won't be at this.

You know forever. He won't be doing this for too long and That kind of thing takes place the problem is that this this should be something

Oh someone just mentioned that that fellow wrote their big text from Sabbath to Sunday, that's nice Well, you know let me let me mention something right there.

You know someone might say well, then why don't you debate him? Because I don't debate all topics. I've never studied that issue not my issue.

I I suppose I could someday but you know one of the one of the struggles that I have is

Maintaining balance in the sense that there's no way that anyone could ever meaningfully or with with any type of proficiency debate every issue there is to debate and In some ways

I have to wonder if we haven't gotten about as wide as any one person could get as far as the number

Topics that we that we address At least as far as single individual. I suppose that a larger ministry would have a staff of Individuals that could specialize particular areas might be able to do more of course, but we're a we're a two -horse show and I do the debating and You know people how about you you should debate everything well like I couldn't

I don't have any special I'm not Superman. I don't have any special ability to Just all sudden

I'm gonna go debate this and I'm gonna go to debate that all the time I do when you do something about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Well, I don't know that I ever will You need to do more on Islam. Well, I Always want to go exactly how often have you support this ministry and generally they the people who said never have but What I just it's a it's a it's a balance.

It really is to find the balance between You know really trying to be way too general and giving surface level answers and not being able to provide a meaningful response

Or being so narrow that you only discuss one particular subject and even with a number of the groups

Well, for example, you'll never ever ever hear me debating a Roman Catholic on birth control

There are different views amongst Protestants on that subject. I don't consider it a definitional issue on the gospel

You're never gonna hear me debating it Same thing with Sabbath issues with the Seventh -day Adventist or or things like that.

Now, I would probably Be willing to debate a Seventh -day Adventist on the investigative judgment because that has to do with what?

Well with the Atonement, of course It has to do with the nature of the Atonement the effect of the Atonement the purpose of the Atonement You know all sorts of things like that.

Yeah, that would be an excellent topic. I I would I would expand myself out

As as mr. Pierce has just noted it would be worth my time to debate the evils of cloning

Chris Arnson, I think that would be Something that would be worth debating I'm not sure who we'd get to take the other side that particular debate.

But anyways That's not nice to pick on poor Chris he's not even channel right now at least

I don't think he's in channel I don't Did it did it did it did it? Nope. Well, I was gonna remember going out to the for the

Java man Nope, he's not in channel right now. So that's it's not nice to pick on Chris, but anyways, um

Who I don't even know who I'm not even gonna say that. I don't know that. Oh, oh you mean the wacky Raelian check.

Yeah Wasn't wasn't she fun, but I tell you the Raelians took a black eye this this past couple weeks, didn't they man?

Yes, we've cloned someone Boy It's almost like they have have cult just tattooed across their foreheads

Man they are who they're they're quite the interesting group. But anyways

Now you've got now you've got me completely and totally lost now. Yes, the sprint man should visit her

Yes, she's definitely using cellular. She needs she needs a new new phone

There's no no tways, but I like that guy that guy is really cool. He's got best facial expressions there

Well, okay. I was talking about something now. I haven't the foggiest Was talking about no

I remember what I was talking about talking about to try and remain focused on on stuff and how many people When you get a right on this when you get a right on that when you get right on this and how about this topic?

and sometimes I'll have to admit I get a little frustrated and it's and I Feel like saying well, when are you gonna write on it?

I? Mean, I mean, I I didn't know that other folks had a had it had the ability to tell me what

I was supposed to write on but anyways, I Do try to maintain some sort of a balance there and who is who am

I talking to? I don't know what I'm talking to Theo It's I'm just sort of rambling on at this particular point in time

But I was actually initially trying to start with a discussion of the consistency of theology and the need to have consistent theology and the issue actually arose as I was considering various the topics that I am writing on and that I am studying at the moment and I was considering how rare it is for people to Have as even a part of their thinking

The idea is this belief that I am examining consistent with the rest of my theological system

How many evangelicals in the United States when considering religious truth at all if it is considered at all?

Ask that question seek consistency in some form sadly very few

It's no wonder then that we can remember a number of weeks ago we read that Barna survey and there is just you know

The people are all over the road as far as their beliefs were concerned grossly inconsistent with themselves concerning what they believe and Why well because very few of them are ever challenged to actually value consistency in theology

We're very much Western in our thinking and I've mentioned many many times the danger of of Pigeonholing or chicken holing our theology as in in Western culture

We have one belief about this area of life and one belief about that area of life And we never we never bring them close to one another to see whether they are consistent

With one another at all and so our doctrine of the church can be utterly separate from our doctrine of God or our doctrine of the cross or our

Doctrine of the sovereignty of God and and all sorts of things like that We don't see that all these things are related to one another because let's face it it takes work to create a

Consistent theology we always have to be thinking through things and some people might say well in fact if you go that direction

Aren't you always uncertain? Aren't you telling people they always need to be uncertain about their theology?

No, I'm not saying they always have to be uncertain about their theology There are certain things that are certain there are certain things that are absolutely positively firm in in their truthfulness, they're absolutely positively firm in their

Centrality to the Christian faith, and it's it's not a matter of constantly questioning everything but If we are seeking consistency if we are seeking consistency in our theological system

We will recognize our traditions, and we will recognize when our traditions impact

Our theology and our thinking and if we're not seeking for tradition. I'm sorry if we're not seeking consistency.

We will not recognize when tradition in essence rears its ugly head and Does what tradition wants to do and tends to do and that is tradition?

Always seeks to cloak itself as if it is dogmatic truth

Traditions want to look like they have been revealed by God in essence and If we are not aware of the role of tradition, and if we are not seeking consistency in our own theological system then those traditions can become enshrined as if they are in fact the

Word of God itself and The result well the result is

Always the same and we've seen in examining for example Dave Hunt's material exactly what happens when you enshrine your traditions so that They can no longer be questioned anymore, and so we need to seek that to tradition and seek that consistency keep mixing those two words up And one of the issues that one of the reasons this crossed my mind is

I'm I'm writing a chapter on church governance and I'm presenting the viewpoint of the plurality of elders and I'm you know

I'm again I Some I was I was talking with An individual from another faith this past week who knew of me but didn't know me personally just had heard things about me, which is always a dangerous thing and The the topic came up, and I basically said you know

I don't know what you've heard about me, but I personally I'm much more interested in Presenting a positive case for what

I believe than in what anybody else believes I'm not one of those people that's you know there are certain people who are just totally focused on one religious group or another religious group and Their whole life is wrapped up in negativity, and that's that's not me my the reason that I I Engage in any type of attack upon other faith is because that faith in a positive way attacks the truth it's out of a love for the truth that I that I do that and So I Think that helped that person understand a little bit about me anyways and so Because of that I do things that most apologists wouldn't do that aren't necessarily wise what

I mean by that well I'll use myself as an example here where I had a tradition that I had never examined and Someone could end up turning that on me at some time in the future.

I suppose, but that's fine. That's life. That's the way it goes I grew up in a theological tradition

That had a particular church structure and Like most people no one had to no one had to cram this into my brain

But like most people I In essence

How do I put this I've seen this I've seen this in my kids for example when you get used to One particular way of doing things, okay?

You Find other ways of doing it to be strange, and if it's a religious thing maybe even wrong

Wrong simply because it's well. It's different And different well difference not good see and That that's you know

I think you all can understand exactly what I'm saying there And so I knew that other churches did things in other ways but I had never really invested any time in and asking why and What was more

I had never really put a whole lot of time into asking the question is the way that we do things necessarily the biblical way

So I grew up in a standard Evangelical Baptist type of a context and for those of you who come from a different perspective

Most Baptist churches that are not reformed Baptist churches practice a single pastor slash staff style of autonomous local church governance and The issue of elders and deacons becomes extremely problematic in Most churches especially most

Southern Baptist churches in most Southern Baptist churches And my teenagers were spent in a very large

Southern Baptist Church in most Southern Baptist churches you have a pastor then you have a staff and then you have deacons and The deacons in essence function as the as the elders, but under the pastor and I wasn't exactly

I had to admit. It was it was a little confusing to me because we had women on the staff and The men on the staff like the the the minister of education the the the the the ubiquitous youth minister

The The singles minister the music minister the media minister

I mean once you get into these mega churches. You've got a minister for you know the the the four to five year old nurse the four to five year old preschool minister and the minister of parking lots and the minister of buses, and I mean there's there's you know ministers for everything and We sort of viewed them as as pastors sort of but not really

Because we didn't ordain women as as pastors, but we did have women on We had like a well the the the individual that was the singles minister the church knows that was a woman and So it wasn't like they were really

Ordained as a minister, but we called them the minister of but we did said we didn't believe in women ministers in that sense and then the deacons

Well I Never did quite figure out what the deacons were but the the deacons got together and voted on things and did things that was true

But but they could be overridden by the pastor So the pastor it was sort of a monarchial monarchical

There was a monarch There was there was one person at the top who really

Ran things in essence and Was Had had the final say in all things

And I remember going to to Bible College, and it was a Southern Baptist Bible College, and so there really wasn't a whole lot of discussion of that particular issue in essence, but as I started looking at the

New Testament and And started the process of being challenged to be consistent in my theology

That's when I started noting that well, you know Yeah, there there are pastors and teachers in in in the

New Testament. No question about that but it seems that the first thing that the

Apostles did when they would when they would establish a church

Was they would They would ordain elders for that church in fact

Paul even makes this a priority the book of Acts records him doing this and so It wasn't the term elder either.

It was elders. It was plural and I started seeing if this is pretty consistent

They they're consistently doing this I wonder if there's more to this and then

I started realizing well, you know this overseers and elders that that's the same office because the

Qualifications for both are the same and All you have to do is follow the usage of the terms through and and it's it's definitely that that's the same office

So you have these elders these overseers in the local church, and then you have deacons, but the deacons

Are not just many elders There's a clear differentiation between them and so Keeping that in mind.

I started going well where did where do we get the the the idea there and that we have all these different positions like the

Minister of this and the minister of that and and yet there's only one pastor and that pastor is sort of the you know in charge of everything

Where did where did all this stuff come from and and then that that dreaded thought crosses your mind

I Wonder if it's important for us to think about this Well, yeah,

I guess it is because we're talking about the way God has designed his church to be organized and He would be the one to know the best way to do this

And that's when you start realizing just how much human wisdom goes into tradition and Yet when you start talking to folks about it you discover how quickly people get very very very

Emotionally involved in their traditions, and there's not a lot of willingness to really discuss tradition and What tradition role is and how we how we examine tradition and things like that that's not really

That's not really encouraged in in a lot of churches these days and I can become uncomfortable and then the other

Attitude pops up and this is this is the one that That I might talk about a little bit more if we don't get folks doing much calling in today

It's eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one and that is we go well wait a minute if if If the

Bible says that we are to have this kind of Form in the church or were to do teach this kind of thing and and so on and so forth so forth

If we don't do it that way Wow are we really saved there's all of a sudden this jump and And that's

I really think this is exactly What the scriptures were talking about? When they when

Paul said knowledge puffs up Knowledge puffs up knowledge without love

Puffs up it makes us It makes us proud of what we know and because we know it then we figure everybody else should know it and Because we know it then we figure everybody should acknowledge that we in fact do know it and That breeds a a very un -christian attitude

It breeds an attitude that really Contradicts the fundamental truth of God's grace and the fundamental truths of of of What grace accomplishes in our lives and I was

I was thinking about someone just recently and along these lines they had contacted me about someone

I've had in the program and and They were saying did you know that this has happened to this person's life

And you know this person quotes from this person and and I guess Once I started asking some questions this particular individual who?

As far as I could tell from initial contact is just a plain old reformed Baptist somewhere up in the

Northeast Starts ripping on people like John MacArthur and John Piper And very quickly what

I What I realized Was that This is one of those folks that demands absolute doctrinal unanimity

If you don't believe exactly as this individual believes and everything then obviously you are you are

Well, you're missing the boat And you know, I don't believe every single thing the

John MacArthur has ever said I'm no longer a dispensationalist. I was raised as a dispensationalist, but I'm not any longer and I would disagree with a number of tenets of even a mild dispensational theology

But hey, let's give John MacArthur tremendous kudos for the fact that here is a man who is so humble before the

Word of God He's willing to change his views. He's willing to say you know what I was wrong about that for example, he

He changed his perspective. I can hear whatever you're doing over there rich really clearly in my headphones

Just say you might want to know that He he used to deny the eternal

Sonship of Christ. He held to a incarnational Sonship perspective similar to Walter Martins and Over time a number of individuals

Talking to him and studying and and and he was he was a four -pointer too and and the exegesis of second

Corinthians chapter 5 To recognize the reality of particular redemption and and he was willing to come come out with that knowing

That there were all these these fundamentalist Baptists. It would just rip his head off For things that I mean

Everybody loves to attack the guy with the big ministries. I love going after John MacArthur of course and He's he's been willing to To change his perspectives and And do so publicly and say you know what?

I don't have it all figured out. I You know, I I I've studied this and this is the conclusion.

I've come to give him kudos for that Well, this individual is going after MacArthur. He's going after Piper and I I don't you know

John Piper's written awesome wonderful stuff. Do I agree with every single thing? He says no, I don't know almost anybody that I agree with 100 % of the time

But if I Gracious if I stopped

If I stopped Listening to people learning from people benefiting from people

Because I disagreed with them on some some point somewhere

I wouldn't listen to anybody I I wouldn't I wouldn't have any communion with with anybody.

I wouldn't have any fellowship with anybody It's just I Don't understand that that mindset that people developed it.

Well, you know that person once Once said that well give an example that person once said that DL Moody was a great man of God Well, we know

Moody wasn't reformed therefore that person's terrible and I just I look at that and I go

Okay, I don't understand that that mindset I really really don't and it is not attractive

It is not attractive at all. And I I have a hard time with with folks

Who take that perspective 877 -753 -3341 Is our phone number if you would like to be on the program today?

Give us a call and we'll be continuing our discussion right after this Try to save your soul from death

It's all works righteousness, you know Can I manufacture grace myself tonight some religious place by weeping hard on your face

Saying prayers to some dead saints, you know It's a journey to the sun

Following Jesus It's a walk of praise Oh And welcome back to dividing line eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one

I must sound kind and loving today because a few folks actually called I've decided that's

I Didn't say a biker dressed like a Furby I said a

Furby dressed like a biker good grief I'm being falsely accused in the channel right knee of right now being an anti -fur bite and If anyone doesn't know what an anti -fur bite is,

I would suggest you ask Pete from Canada Pete from Canada is weird But we love

Pete from Canada because we're not for Pete from Canada. You would not be listening to the dividing line live right now but Pete from Canada is is a is a

Furby fanatic and He says I'm an anti -fur bite now we do have an anti -fur bite in the channel

That's the offeress and the offeress comes up with numerous interesting ways of dispatching

Furby's Most of which are probably illegal and but I don't think that Furby's are yet under controlled under the

Animal Protection Act stuff Probably will be eventually if liberals have their way besides Pete's in Canada, and we all know about Canada Anyways, but I'm not an anti -fur bite, and I told

Pete that if he sent me a Furby Oh Theo lurks tosses a Furby in a blender see there you go that there.

There's how it works If if Pete sent me a Furby dressed like a biker

Then I would I would I would Proudly put the Furby right here on my desk, and I would actually take a picture of me and the

Furby with the It has to be a biker Furby Otherwise, it's not it's not happening so there you go

Pete There's see he's spreading his anti -fur bite rhetoric. What was you must see you're a classic liberal

Any statement into its negation Without even giving a reason why you're doing a classic classic liberalism, there's there's a good example of it right there

Anyways, I am the foggiest idea what that has to do with anything, but hey it's It's it's what was going on the channel, which is sort of strange and sad all at the same time all right

We have had a few folks who have All right everyone behave in there, let's be nice Who have taken the time to call eight seven seven seven five three?

3341 is the phone number and let's go ahead and start with Jonna first hello

How are you doing? I can hear you great, okay? I can I just mostly wanted to thank you for your book comes the

Potter's freedom for a long time I Had a hard time

Like understanding or defending the Ellen limited atonement and It was really

I guess what I never realized even though I had gone and taken college

Like theology in college. I never realized that like Armenians don't believe in a true substitutionary atonement, and I guess

So I just mostly want to thank you for your book and everything Let me explain that for folks who aren't haven't maybe read the book

That's one of the things I pointed out in the book was that at least Historical Armenians do not believe in the theory of substitutionary atonement

They take a governmental view because they recognize that if Christ actually bears in his own body the sins of all

People then there would be no basis for the condemnation of anyone they recognize that God would not engage in The injustice of double jeopardy of punishing upon someone else the

The sins that were already punished upon Christ, and so they they rejected that most people today who are not reformed

But who reject elements of reformed theology? May be

Armenian but they are Armenian without knowing in essence that they are Armenian and That sort of ties in with what

I was saying before and that is that they have a tradition But they haven't necessarily Examined that particular tradition

Yeah, yeah, I know and um yeah, I actually looked up some of the references because I was like it just Sounds strange yeah sure sure you know it's just like well.

Wow they really am I happen to attend college at a Wesleyan school when he teaches sinless perfection

Mm -hmm and I know that they defined sin is a voluntary transgression of a known law of God To your knowledge do pretty much all

Armenians Define sin in that way as far as you know or well at least again you have to identify whether you're talking about theologians who would

Self professedly identify themselves as Armenians or if we're talking about your standard evangelical who?

has the Armenian traditions, but but doesn't realize that they you know they have never looked at them and really examined them and Yeah, I would say that's primarily the the

Armenian perspective. There are differences between us as far as the issue of our view of man's

Sin and man's Depravity and the extent of that depravity and the nature of that depravity, but they certainly wouldn't take that passage from Proverbs Or I think it's in the

King James the the rendering is the the plowing of the sinner Is an abomination to God that is?

Because because he's not doing it to the glory of God They wouldn't take that perspective that would be too radical for most of them to to embrace right yeah, well anyway.

Thank you Well, thank you very much for reading it. I it really wouldn't help anybody if you didn't read it

Thanks a lot 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41

The entire channel is right now Mocking Pete and Pete is very easy to mock

But he's helping out at the moment, and he really needs to learn how to not do that, but anyhow oh

We have an another Canadian online oh no Okay before we bring him on let me let me do a little practicing here

Okay We need to need to get ready here for anyone from from Canada, and could you come in here and turn the

AC down to like? 47 that'll that'll make it feel a little bit more like like Canada, so okay.

Let's go ahead and talk with James in Canada yeah, hello, yeah, how are you?

I'm sorry am I I shouldn't do that. I I'm a very politically incorrect person however Did you know that Pete's a

Canadian Just recently I just found out that's it's it's a scary thing, but yeah, he's he's a

Canadian, too. Yeah Are there are there more than two of you up there? You have fled to the to the land of Well let's not get into Texas right now, that'd be a bad thing anyways yes, sir

My question is I guess it's kind of in regards to limited atonement, and I guess the moral will of God This has been suggested to me

And I think maybe a derivation of it is actually taught by John Piper, and I was wondering if I could get your perspective, okay?

The argument goes like this It's that because God I think it's just an axe chapter 17 that God now commands men everywhere to repent and so everybody

Everybody has been commanded to accept the gospel And because God always desires that men follow his commands

That God desires that all men be saved okay, and They would use that to say well that that's what the passage

I believe first Timothy, and that's what That's what second Peter saying not wishing for any to perish like yeah, yeah, there's some reformed folks

John Murray who would understand first Timothy 2 for in second

Peter 3 9 as referring to The same kind of will in God that it is not

God's will that anyone should murder Or that anyone should commit adultery or or that type of thing in essence

God has revealed His law he's revealed his will in his law and therefore

That this is in reference to this this kind of will The there's really two different issues there, and and that is

I think it's proper to recognize The fact that you can

I think profit from Seeing the will of God In two different ways in the sense that there is the perfect prescriptive will of God Contained in his law, and then there is obviously the decree of God Which included very clearly according to Acts chapter 4 the crucifixion of Christ Which would then have had to included have included within it numerous other things?

There's everything good in recognizing that the reason I disagree in regards to second

Timothy or first Timothy chapter 2 and second Peter 3 9 is not because I necessarily disagree with the

Formulation regards to the will of God. It's an exegetical issue. I haven't seen

A response from someone who holds that perspective I haven't heard a response exegetically to the fact that in second first Timothy chapter 2

You have within the context both before and after Paul is talking about kinds of men.

He's talking about types of men. He's talking about rulers and those in authority He's talking about older men and younger men and older women and younger women and slaves and masters

And he's using all this generic language. Why he would in That one place all sudden switch from generic to some sort of universal individualistic language and then you also have the difficulty there of explaining how

Jesus Christ is the Mediator for those who will not experience

God's mercy is is Christ actually seeking to Appease the father's wrath on behalf of individuals that the father has specifically chosen not to save is there is there

Something in the Godhead here where there's a there's a contradiction going on something along those lines,

I don't know but that that becomes part of the issue and So I just have not seen a an exegesis of those passages that takes into consideration for example particular redemption in in second

Timothy 2 the idea of Why don't keep saying second Timothy first Timothy chapter 2 the idea of mediation things like that same thing with second

Peter 3 9 I haven't seen An exegesis that follows the pronouns and the context and the purposes of Peter And explains why all of a sudden there would be this this statement of this universal salvific will in in the context in which it is it is found so it's not from my perspective so much an issue of The proper recognition of the will of God as it is exegesis those particular passages

Would you feel comfortable saying that because God desires that men follow his commands and God commands men to repent that in that sense

God desires all men to be saved well when you say when you use the term desire God commands men everywhere to repent of that there is no question the problem is

I like to try to be a little bit a little bit more specific in the use of terminology and when you use

Relation of his law and so I wouldn't utilize that that terminology I don't see that anything is gained from utilizing that particular terminology

God commands men everywhere to repent and as such holds them accountable for their continued sinful rebellion against him but that does not for me anyways translate into the assertion that That you know if you use the term desire in that way

Then what term are you going to use to discuss God's desire for the salvation of his elect people

I? See I mean you can't what other word is there. I mean you know that's that's the problem as far as I see it is it

You you then have to start using words in multiple ways and you know that I?

Don't see the Bible using that particular word in two different ways I do see it using will in two different ways and so I'll stick with the biblical usage rather than worrying about the other one

Okay, okay, man. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Bye See a

I know is a I was going in but it was a it's alright anyone else call nobody else call

That's a shame it'd be really nice if someone else would Would call at eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one two good calls right there

And before the end of the program too that was the amazing part That that would happen.

You know that early on in the in the program most folks wait until The you know anyways

What were you discussing we were discussing beforehand the relationship of Theology do

I see two wills and a God I don't even understand that question That Nick looks

Looks very familiar to me I'm going to do a little who is here

Do you do do to do where is it other it is? Hmm the rural theologian and that's interesting

Anyways We were discussing the role of theology and and and I was talking about Well, I was talking about obnoxious

Calvinist is what I was talking about. Let's let's be let's be honest about it You You may not

You may not like it, but the fact the matter is that there are there are people who have good theology, but do a lousy job in Enunciating it and in applying it and let's

Let's be perfectly honest ourselves sometimes. We're our own worst enemies sometimes we are our

Very ones who do the Do the cause the most damage

There really is no room whatsoever For arrogance

On the part of a reformed person I don't care if you're a

Calvinistic Episcopalian a Conservative Presbyterian of whatever stripe

Reformed Baptist, however, you want to put it When When we promote our truth with an attitude of Arrogance we really deny the validity of that truth from the start and I've tried to explain to many folks who have would argue with me and say well, you know

Really When you you know a consistent Arminianism is a denial of the gospel and an

Arminian cannot be saved And I normally go. Yeah, you've ever met one of these consistent

Arminians There are a few out there and and I I actually would

Would probably agree that consistent

Arminianism historical Arminianism that which denies The substitutionary atonement of Christ things like that.

Yeah, I have a hard time seeing that as the gospel, but I also Don't know too many folks who struggle with the doctrines of grace or because they've been raised certain traditions

Initially resist the doctrines of grace. I don't know many of those folks who Have any idea what the issues are?

Just like I I didn't know anything when I was growing up about the plurality of elders and and the importance of a proper form of church governance

I Mean, I think it's very important that you have a plurality of elders. I think the the the fact that there are plurality of elders helps to Helps to keep the church

From becoming a monarchy where it's one man's dream and one man's vision and one man's power and how many churches have you seen?

When the one man left the church in essence died Well, why that happened?

Well, there are folks and we're all prone to do it. There are folks who?

Who engage in man worship? there are folks who become followers of a particular individual and I think that the plurality of elders would help to keep that from happening

And while I think it's important and it's vital and and I would I would defend it and argue for it

I also recognize that there are individuals who've just never thought these things through they've never been exposed these things and if I Respond to someone and I sometimes do

I'm not I am not The example of patience at times. I'm really not

I am NOT as patient as I should be and and especially when it comes to when People will sometimes

I'll admit this is this is a short shortfall of mine But people will ask questions and they'll ask it because they're lazy

They just don't want to do any work They don't want to read they don't want to study

They don't want to do the footwork. They just want someone to hand it all to them on a silver platter. That's that's pretty

Familiar in our culture is it not I Lose patience.

There's just no two ways about it. I will admit it I lose patience when those folks ask questions that they should be able to find the answers to themselves and would in fact greatly

Be benefited from finding the answers themselves But despite that I'm not as patient as I should be

And I have to constantly remind myself that when especially when someone comes into channel or someone writes me an email or someone walks up to me in Salt Lake City or out in Mesa or where I'm speaking someplace and They ask one of the old old questions about a passage that I have explained a thousand times before it is very very very easy to Go into automatic mode and And just simply

Dismiss this person and not recognizing that hey Everybody's at different places in their

In their in their walk they're in different places in their sanctification or in different places in their their knowledge of things and my response may have tremendous impact upon them if I I Will provide it in a in a godly fashion

And so, you know in essence I'm saying to my my fellow Reformed folks

Yes, what we believe is is consistent with biblical revelation and There is every reason in the world to stand for it

There's every reason in the world to resist compromise there is every reason in the world to engage in writing a potter's freedom or this book that I'm working on with Dave Hunt or God's Sovereign Grace or drawn by the father.

I think there's every single reason to do all of those things

But I think you and I both know in our heart of hearts that sometimes in the battle

It is not God's glory that we're seeking but our own Or even if we're not consciously seeking our own glory we slip into attitudes that just simply do not become the gospel

Attitudes of arrogance and impatience and that should be the farthest thing from a a person who who professes

That I believe what I believe because God by his grace has opened my eyes

God by his grace has softened my heart and he's shown me my inability

All right. Well if you believe all that then what are you trying to do shove this down somebody else's throat? What are you trying to do?

How how can you get away? With acting in this way, I mean if God opened your heart and your mind

At his time then aren't you basically telling God that he should have already opened their mind

Who are you to tell God that isn't that what we say our minions do? You say but that takes a lot of patience, you know,

I know and I don't have a lot of patience. Yeah, I don't either But boy

God is certainly patient with me and constantly reminds me that if he's patient with me then

Who am I not to be patient with others? Yeah, I know.

I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know. It's Sault Ste. Marie, huh? Let's be listening to go what

I was with you right to that point someone said let's say here James try to pronounce

Sault Ste. Marie and I Was in channel and But I will have to admit, okay,

I'm gonna I'm gonna have to I'm gonna I'm gonna confess something we're gonna take our break The only reason

I know that that it's Sault Ste. Marie Is because I grossly mispronounced it

On the air on kwa o radio when I was 18 19 years old

Yeah, probably 18 or 19 years old it was about I don't know 9 10 o 'clock at night

I was doing the weather Sault Ste. Marie had the lowest temperature in the continental United States and I am going to admit

I I was guilty of doing the rip and read thing where you'd you'd take the copy off of the the newswire and you would

You were supposed to read it first but None of us ever did and so I hit

Sault Ste. Marie, and I had heard it, but I didn't put the connection together and so right there on the air

I said Salt State Mary And this is back in the days where the old with the old push -button phones where the the line would light up, you know and This was not solid state or anything and man boom because this is in Sun City, Arizona And there you know everybody from up that that part of the neck of the woods is calling me to let me know

That's Sault Ste. Marie you moron So So hey,

I said it right but I I initially many many years ago as a young person did not Okay.

Well, anyways, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one we're gonna take a break and hope that some of you folks who are talking to me in the channel might call in even and To discuss through these things.

We'll be right back Today It's all

And welcome back to dividing line that's Steve camp, of course, we were playing a little bit of his music beforehand has a new

New album out called desiring God. That's that's really really good I was listening to it while climbing squat peak again today

And in fact, I played some cuts from it last week including my sins my sins my safe.

That's an excellent excellent excellent album anyways Talking a little bit.

I see I see one light over there, but it's still steady on so I'm not sure

I'm not sure how many books has James written. I'm working on number 19 and 20 concurrently at the same time actually

I saw that Just saw that question go flying by We have 50 people in channel right now 50 people in channel, that's

Anybody who comes to the under the Starlink IRC network Does a listing of channels by the number of folks and ours is like 10 times the size of anybody else's it's

No, I will not be addressing the dreaded powerball issue The Reformed Baptist discussion list was inundated with the the the interminable never -ending

Powerball discussion over the past couple of weeks That did become very very very very unprofitable

Wants to ask Oh No, yes, no

No, or yes, oh Yeah, that would it was really confusing

All right, let's let's go ahead and Now this is this is strange because I didn't

I thought we had already talked to the only Christian in New Jersey and So there they must be migrating there.

There must be some spiritual thing going on in New Jersey right now I'm not really sure but let's go ahead and talk with Don in New Jersey.

Hi Don Hello, Don Hello, Don. How are you? I guess my question is

I caught a segment of your program like three weeks ago on Dave hunt, okay, and You had said something about how he was a

Pelagian I was wondering if he believed in original sin when I could

I thought that maybe you needed to in order to be a Pelagian that you had to reject the doctrine of original sin

Yeah, well what I was discussing was I played a segment of his arguing that Man is capable of doing good outside of grace and That is certainly a a

Pelagian perspective. He argued that in regards to Noah He Specifically said that Noah found favor in the sight of Lord without being given grace now the only way

I can understand that statement Now, of course my whole my whole problem with that is it's a complete misuse of the passage that's not what we're even talking about, but Dave has some exegetical issues on many things, but the point is he made the specific statement that men are capable of doing good

Without God's grace and that's his standard historical

Pelagian perspective and Whether you know, it's a well is he a consistent

Pelagian? I don't believe mr Hunt is consistent on almost anything outside of his unwillingness to be corrected when he makes a mistake on history or exegesis or anything else and so I He has admitted this is a new area to him.

This is not something he had ever dealt with before but from his perspective Hey, all you have to do is

Is write a book on it and you've and you've now covered it and as a result he's making statements.

He you know, he says all sorts of strange things about how adoption is something that's a special blessing rather than actually a part of Salvation that everyone experiences and some real holes in his theology

Have been exposed by his attempt to attack the the

Reformed Faith. So what he says About that is a denial of Biblical truth.

It's a Pelagian perspective what he believes about original sin. I don't know but he certainly he certainly couldn't believe it in its

Classical formulation if he's saying that's a man can do good outside of God's grace

It just blows me away how he keeps on misrepresenting Calvinism after according to you

I've heard that a whole lot of people have confronted him about this and Straightened him out on this how he can just keep on misrepresenting it not just you know

Not because he actually it's one thing to keep on holding to his position but to keep on misrepresenting somebody else's

Well people have asked me. How can that be? How how can this happen and I'll have to admit

I Everyone who's listened to this program Will have to confess that I have attempted

Repeatedly to in essence say this is due to slavery to tradition

I've tried to to say, you know, I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt

But this last section of stuff that I played knowing that he has now read my materials knowing that that he has

Has heard from so many people and now myself Where he is wrong about these things where he's misrepresenting things

It is very difficult to avoid the conclusion that it seems

Like he's engaging in in simple dishonesty But again,

I I think I'll leave that to folks to decide on their own when they get a chance to read the book But we'll find out one way or the other

Okay, ma 'am, all right. Thank you. Thank you for your call today. God bless. That was actually from Maryland my screener

Told me that that was actually from Steve in New Jersey, but it wasn't Steve in New Jersey Now we have

Steve in New Jersey. So Steve, I think I just got cut off Stevie there And and you're a

Christian. Yes, ma 'am. So that makes two or three of you now in New Jersey at least Wow, that's cool

I Just like picking on on New Jersey for some strange reason

But anyways, so your question Steve my question is there several weeks ago. I think it was two weeks ago.

You had just before Christmas on Isaiah and You talked about a child was born the son is given right and you went beyond the

Hebrew parallelism Well, I that was there I think you in fact you mentioned it and you see only as you were talking about the eternality, right?

I was given and my question is I'm not challenging that and I think there are parts of Scripture where you can do that but How do you?

Determine when you can do that and when you can't do it I guess a classical example would be on the

Greek and Hebrew words for soul and spirit And I've heard people, you know, where where they're where where they'll they'll take those pieces of Scripture and say well

This is talking about the soul. This is talking about the spirit you get into the dichotomous trichotomous argument, but where it's clearly

Just parallelism. I think in In Mary's song where she sings and when

I said talks about her Her spirit being Filled with joy again is a very loose paraphrase.

I don't have that scripture in front of me But you see that you see the parallelism Parallelism and it's the and it's just saying the same thing in different words

How do you differentiate where that is legitimate to go beyond it and where it's not well, yeah, that's a very good question and I mentioned

I you know, I said I cannot prove that this is anything more than Parallelism, but I think when you're talking about the fact that you're already looking at a passage

That is so tremendously beyond I Mean just the nature of the passage already is so rich using terms like Prince of Peace and mighty

God and and And it's obviously prophesying beyond the level of a mere

Human fulfillment. I Think that that is is what at least gives me since I generally am

NOT one who would Seek to go beyond the the most basic meaning of the text since the sense the text is already there since it is already

Very rich in its in its perspective that that really I think is is one of the first things you have to take into consideration is

Is the text giving you any reason to do that is it is there something in the text such as a prophetic element

That goes beyond I mean, you know when you look at Psalm 110 And you look at its use by New Testament writers as a messianic psalm that gives you

I think some some idea of The answer to your question as far as as far as that goes now personally myself

I like to allow The Apostles to do that.

I like to have the Apostles make the application Normally simply because When the

Holy Spirit tells me that this is the the greater fulfillment of this passage I feel a whole lot better than when

I've come to a conclusion myself in essence But I think you have to look at the context and exercise great care

And that's what I was trying to do was to exercise great care and say, you know I I'm not

I'm not gonna go to the mat on this. I'm not going to You know You know make this a dogmatic assertion, but it seems to me that there is warrant for this

I think there's warrant for it You consider everything about God about Scripture and what it's what was actually happening there, right?

Yeah, but I but I think we need to be very careful and say that right up front let people let people know that right

Okay. Okay one one one other thing just just a comment. Okay to make you when you opened up the webcast about consistency and also about those taking it to extremes and being very cruel towards others in in in their attitudes because They think they've got a handle on the truth.

I had gone through a text You probably have heard of it RK Harrison's introduction to the

Old Testament And where you know, that's the one where he starts Genesis on page 540

Material yeah, and he goes through a lot of the the culture and the writings and he translates cuneiform tablets and and relates it to the scripture and you know, and when you see the vastness of Humanity there and how it relates to scripture

There is just one truth that my father turned around and said to me because he had got through some of this He said, you know, it is so vast.

No man can have a corner on truth. Mm -hmm There's just too much there

Validates God and it puts us in our place Yeah, it's true. And I think a little bit of humility in the face of God's truth goes a very very long way

And I think we all need to have that and it's it's the the the growth in Christian maturity is when we learn to balance those things properly

So that we're not compromising so that we're not Constantly putting into question the

Christian truth But at the same time we are we are humble before it. That's That's that's where maturity comes in.

No two ways about it. All right. All right. Thank you for calling. God bless All right, we are full up.

The lines are burning up here in Phoenix, Arizona. Let's talk Let's get our ETS report from our roving reporter.

We now go live to Denver with Randy Randy Can you hear us? I can hear you.

I'm just wondering when I turn in my receipts I'm sorry, Randy.

You need to reread your contract I do have a little riddle for you before we begin

Okay, John Calvin Martin Luther J. I Packer James White and Buddha all have in common

We've all been identified as false teachers by Dave Hunt I am aware of that.

Yes, you could have left Buddha out Because I don't think he was quite mentioned in the same context that I was but thank you very much

Oh good good, we see the Renningham brothers are our good folks

Yes, I enjoyed stopping by and chatting with them Well, I do have a full report on my on my website content for the faith org with a numeral for but a couple things

You might enjoy I need the shameless plug music right now somebody If you heard of Jay Dudley Woodbury from fuller you went to fuller

I don't know if he was there when you know I have the foggiest he's Been a missionary in Afghanistan for quite a few years and teach his missions at fuller and he's over there now

He was one of the plenary speakers, but it was rather humorous he was explaining that vowel points like Hebrew are very critical in Arabic and that there are scholars of Arabic who disagree about some of the meaning of passages in the

Quran because of Vowel points and the word for virgins turns out to be very very similar to another one meaning white raisins

And he pointed out that the the martyrs who flew into the Trade Center and others might be rather bitterly disappointed if they get to paradise

Al Qaeda is going to kill you now for having even mentioned that that striking fact but actually it is quite true that there are some who will go so far as to say that 30 to 50 percent of the of the

Quran is is almost impossible to figure out what it actually originally meant in the first place, but anyways, yeah, that's

There you go Obviously the big thing there there was there a lot of issues going on there was on Christ and other religions and so the

Muslim stuff tied in rather rather nicely, but obviously one of the big issues still remain to be the hope and theism mm -hmm and I'm sure you heard about the votes already.

Yes Go ahead and mention that Sanders and Pinnock have been

Well, isn't it just the the the action can't take place until the next meeting, right? What was what happened was

Roger Nicole and I go into depth in my report on that But basically I gave Nicole statement but basically what he did was he put forth a proposal to be voted on that they be considered for expulsion and Boyd included

But he trumped them by not paying his dues. You can't kick me out. I quit but So it ended up being the other two and there was some controversy over that.

So the vote was delayed there was an extra meeting to give people time to discuss and and kind of debate the issue and It finally went through and it passed by a rather close margin

Well, you know 59 percent to 41 percent on the case of Pinnock roughly and even closer on Sanders Which would not be enough to expel them if this was the expulsion vote

But what it was was a vote to put it before the executive committee who would take statements from both sides

Weigh the issue and then make a proposal at next year's meeting in Atlanta hmm, and so this was simply in order to get it up for a vote next year and So they've still got some work to do on that, but it will go to a vote

But the question is is if it goes to vote will it pass anyway? And the discussion that came up I was fortunate enough to spend some time with the

Bethlehem Institute John Piper's group and The discussion that came up there when

John Piper and Wayne Grudem were Meeting with us was that very likely if it did not go through there'd be a substantial

Break in ETS that a lot of people would just feel that it's gone too far and it's time to Start a new organization that remains truer to the original ideal

Mm -hmm That does seem to be the process doesn't it well and if it and if it doesn't if it does pass then you're gonna have those on the you know other side who would defend them that would probably break away and say these guys are getting too rigid and Let us depart from the evangelical mullahs and their jihad's and go our own way to join

Pinnock and his crew at the more No, you know more. Well there of course they could maybe join one of the existing groups there

Oh, there's plenty plenty of broad groups the that meet in fact around the same time society for biblical literature exactly

So, you know, it'll be interesting to see what you know, what develops with that, but it will be

It was a key thing. But here's here's a little anecdote that you can only get from your roving reporters and Hey rich, have we paid him recently?

He gets those white raisins So I'm sitting

I got early to the Sanders one and He was looking looking around and I was sorely tempted

But I must have had good devotions that day or just being in the presence of all those guys I didn't say a thing because I was gonna as we were walking around handing out the the papers

I was helping him a little bit and was sorely tempted to ask him how the debate had gone but Poor man was two minutes away from delivering his speech and I didn't want to Bluster him just as he was about to go up there and share his view.

Oh So I did think about it. I thought how much you would enjoy it, but I thought you know, it's probably

That was probably the nice thing to do No, I would

I obviously would be very interested in knowing what what John Sanders would say

In a context like that regarding the debates. I mean, you know, I think he did actually one thing

He said I'm trying to remember exact quote I may have it in my little write -up but he made a comment about he'd been discussing with someone opposed to the position recently and then when

I later on listened to your debate I gathered that he was actually referring to you in the debate and some of the things that that happened

So if I can run across that information, I'll email to did you get your kgv mail account?

Well, I you know, I really appreciated the offer but I just you know I just felt it'd be a misuse of their kind offer to to use a

King James only email site but I want you to give us a shameless plug again, which was which was asking that You mentioned the website again, so folks can run over there and read your report.

Okay. Well, it's of course www .contend and then a numeral for rather than the letters for and then the faith org

Content of the faith org. Yep, and if they go to the the main page, it's got a few summaries of some things

It's about four or five articles down in the main page is the link to ETS and the full full report there.

Excellent So thanks for the the plug and if you run across any good deals on yogurt covered raisins

You might be able to reward the rich and the volunteer staff over there. Okay, man Thanks for calling guys.

All right. Bye. Bye. We still got two folks to get online here. So we need to move along It's a great haste here

Howard in Kansas, how you doing Howard? Hello. How you doing? It is good to talk to dr. Oh Well, I had a question actually two questions for you about the

Sanders debate the open theism thing is just getting huge yeah, and In your debate with Sanders at one point he and I think was in cross -examination you were

He was asking you about how does God interact with the creature? How can an eternal being? Possibly interact with a finite being right and you had said that there were certain assumptions

But you really didn't have any time to answer his question I thought maybe you know not now you'd not you only have about a minute

Maybe you could yeah, I have I have less time now than I did then probably I'm not sure which question it was his his perspective in essence was that if if God's Existence and I think this is part of the assumption is is and this really is what he's arguing is limited

By an inability to interact with us in time and see that's one thing that I would

I would reject is that while I would not limit God to time or Ascribe to God the the

Creaturely attributes that would be part and parcel of Creaturally existence at the same time.

I don't think that it follows that God is is incapable of Interacting with his creatures in time.

He created time and From our perspective interaction requires a lack of knowledge of the future and ability to change

But again, that's begging the issue why why can't God be if my God is big enough

And this is sort of interesting because this was the last question was asked of him And if you listen to those audience questions you know he managed to dodge it which is interesting because this is the issue that came up at ETS is their view of inerrancy, but If my

God is big enough to give us perfect revelation in Scripture While still using the human

Instrument in such a way that it that the human being Uses their language and their emotions and their experiences to do so and the result is still

Exactly what God wanted to be then he's certainly big enough to make his decree in such a way that he

Interacts with me in time from my perspective. It's all an issue of perspective. I kept trying to bring that up but I also as you'll notice did my best to keep it from becoming a in in a

Philosophical You know let's let's light up our pipes and sit around and talk and discuss philosophy

Rather than let's look at what God's Word has to say and so I where it seems to be going. Oh, it is yeah

I read Sumer of Contra Gentiles years ago by Aquinas and he seemed to argue the same thing with against the

Aristotle who said well an eternal God could only think about himself right and I guess I just didn't know if there was there were

Philosophical arguments that That could answer that or is it just mainly biblical you know exegesis that well

Yeah, I I think that you could Develop and people have developed.

I think a sound philosophical Argumentation, but it really depends upon on where you're starting and from my perspective

I think it was very clear that the open theists are not starting with God's Revelation I don't

I don't think that man's philosophy can in any way shape or form of Provide us with a solid foundation for really knowing truth, so unless we're just sitting around trying to impress ourselves

With our philosophical ramblings, then we need to start with God's Revelation and build our philosophy from there, okay?

Steven and Memphis isn't gonna appreciate it, but you did call before he did so you'll have to make it quick well in your inclusivism debate

It sounds similar to a Peter Kreef's Argument that is it could be possible that a person could know the word of or the word or the eternal word without actually having

Heard of Jesus himself is there really any biblical Argument for that because Peter Kreef seen his own arguments just seem to be philosophical and nothing really out of the scripture

I'm kind of wondering where they're getting this Well if you really wanted the only Argumentation that they use you'd want to look at both

Sanders books and and Pinnock's books on the subject they they really like to focus upon Cornelius and pretty much any

Gentile that appears anywhere in scripture becomes evidence of their position from their perspective But it requires you to pick and choose what elements of that revelation you're gonna look at so When you say are there biblical arguments sure you can make a biblical argument

But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a consistent biblical argument, so that's that's where we go with that Hey, thank you very much for calling today.

God bless. Thanks to everybody appreciate everybody calling in there and Next week as a

Stephen. Sorry we didn't get to you, but why don't you call us next week? That was a good question. We'll pick that up there and keep that number nearby call earlier in the show

We can talk longer with you. That's the good part of it. Thanks for listening to dividing line We'll see you next week The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 0 3 1 8 or write us at p .o.

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