Beautiful: Married Couple Leaving Mormonism

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So the last few years, like not a few years, but like always, you hear like little things about like I guess church history or more and you're like, that's kind of odd, but you just kind of, you don't fully understand it, so you don't read too much into it, pay too much attention to it, and then of course like, we're told forever, don't look at anything, don't read anything, because it's bad and it's wrong and it's going to lead you astray.

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There's a lot of questions Sarah always came up with that I never had answers for, you know? Yeah. Because we return missionary and all this, and I just don't have answers.

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Where'd you, where'd you go on your mission? Independence, Missouri. Independence, Missouri. It was a rough ride. You should, you should have a little history background when you're in Independence, Missouri, yeah.

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That's what I said, but even then, she'd come up with questions and I just wouldn't have answers. Yeah, and so like...

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That was a big start. I think kind of what broke things open for me, I found on the

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Mormon, like their website, their official website, the accounts of Joseph Smith's four different visions, and it didn't make sense.

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And then like, the church made... Yeah, like the church essays, and then like, because I was always taught like,

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Joseph Smith translated Golden Plate, like, Curtin, whoever on the other side, and so then when they started like, producing videos and things about like, the stone and the hat,

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I was like... And then they, then they put the picture out of the series. That's the thing is that like, I remember asking about that.

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So they've had it the whole time? Of course. Yeah. Of course they have. And they knew it, they knew it the whole time, they denied it the whole time.

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We've stood, I stood out here for 20 years with Mormons saying, you're making it all up, that's all fake, and it was sitting, it was sitting right over there.

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You got in trouble for asking about it? Yeah, because I was reading anti -Mormon literature. Oh. Does that make sense?

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Yes, yes. And so I was like, oh, okay, well that's bad. That was wrong and not true, and a lie.

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Right. And so then once I just kind of like, faced all the lies together I guess, I was like, this doesn't work.

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It doesn't work. We go through interviews for the recommends. Right.

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Yeah. If I put the church in the opposite position, they can't, I feel that they can't honestly pass.

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Yeah, like one of the questions they ask is, are you honest in all your dealings with your fellow man? And I didn't feel like the church could say yes to that.

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That one hurt. That one really hurt. Yeah. That one hurt.

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So how long have you been on this part of your journey, like what? Since March. So this year?

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Yeah, so just. Real recently. And even then it's been back and forth, back and forth.

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So, go ahead. Sorry, you know we took off our garments and then she put them back on and then. Because I was scared.

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Oh, of course. Of course. Like, I remember when we were sitting in our bedroom and we were watching television, and I like panicked.

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And I hurried and got up and put my garments on and went to bed because I was like, I just had such a panic in me.

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Yeah. That I was doing something wrong. It's a tradition. And it's deeply imbibed. And so it's hard. It's deeply embedded, yeah.

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So the real question I always have, when someone starts reading this stuff, you start realizing that there has been deception involved.

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Yeah. What has kept you from just simply throwing all belief in anything historical or anything else off and just simply going, nobody knows?

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You do go through that. Right. I mean, I don't know exactly what the statistic is, but it's like 85 % of people that leave the

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Mormon Church end up agnostic or atheist. Because if I can be lied to so well and I can be shown goodness so well, how could somebody else not do the same?

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That's right. That's why when I wrote Letters to a Mormon Elder, one of the main things I tried to do every time I dealt with an error, the creation of the first vision, the various versions of it, how

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Joseph Smith's theology evolved so much. He didn't believe what he believed in 1830, what he ends up believing in 1844.

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In fact, I was talking to a Mormon scholar just recently, and he did not disagree with this. I said, if you had given

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Joseph Smith five more years, there would be no Mormonism because no one would be able to make heads or tails out of how fast his theology was changing.

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So when you have that kind of thing happening, what I would also do at the same time was try to present truth about how the

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New Testament writers didn't do what Joseph Smith did. So to try to say, hey, don't throw everything out just because one group has deceived you.

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It doesn't mean that everyone is seeking to do that. Once you find out that you've been lied to, everything can start sounding like a lie.

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And that shuts you off to everything else. The evidence and the reality behind the

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Christian faith, and I mean a biblical Christian faith, not the papacy or stuff like that, but a biblical

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Christian faith, is of a completely different nature than what you have in the book of Abraham or all the other things related to Mormonism.

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And so, like you were saying, 85, I would probably estimate more like 95.

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Sure, yeah, I know it's a lot. The back door leads to unbelief rather than to a founded belief that actually gives meaning to life and to an understanding of the world.

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So that's why I was asking, you know, what, my answer to it would probably be the

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Holy Spirit of God. Sure. The real Holy Spirit of God who is consistently ministering to his people, that would be our answer as to what keeps you from going to them at that point.

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But that obviously would be our deepest desire, is as you're having to put things away that have been a part of your reality, don't just replace them with something else just to have a new reality.

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But there does need to be a grounding process that allows you to find out, well, what really is true?

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I mean, if we look at the history of the book of Mormon and it all collapses, then what about Scripture?

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What about the New Testament? And that's where it's so fundamentally different. The evidence is of a completely different nature.

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That's what's really important for me to try to communicate to someone. Yeah, go ahead.

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No, no, go ahead. So I was going to say, in your letter you mentioned, I mean, I feel for you because I know it's such a traumatic experience, especially if your whole life has been invested in a particular view of who

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God is and a particular view of salvation and it's been your whole community. It's traumatizing, spiritually, even physically.

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Oh, yeah. I mean, I know that. And so I know you wrote in the letter that you want to know

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Christ, you want to go to heaven. Yeah, I do. And so my greatest desire for you is not in a shot to sort of unload, look at all of the corrupt stuff that took place in the first century with Joseph Brigham and all the rest.

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I know you probably have already looked into that. And not to even say, let's go through the list of the thousand contradictions within Mormon theology and with Christian, with the truth, with biblical theology.

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But really to ask the question of the two most important things is who is

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Jesus and how do you come to know God? Because that's fundamentally the difference between the truth, the salvation that Christ offers in every religion of the world.

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Now, this has a Christian veneer to it with all the Christian language. So you've grown up with it.

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Jesus, Heavenly Father, salvation, Bible, resurrection, gospel, all that.

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So it has the Christian veneer. But this is the same story as every religion of man.

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Ultimately, it's what you are going to do to take care of your sin problem, to be good enough, to be obedient enough, to forgot worthy, worthy for God to accept you.

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And I just if you can hear any one thing because it was in your letter, I want you want to know Christ.

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You want to know God and know the truth. You need to know that the fundamental distinction between what you have been raised with and what

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Scripture teaches us and what Christ offers is that salvation is a gift of God. It is you are never going to be worthy enough.

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You know, you kept putting your temple garments back on. I imagine and I don't know all that was going on within you.

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There's probably a lot. But I imagine that the temple garments probably symbolize some form of cleanliness, righteousness, protection.

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And I want you to hear that there is only one garment, one robe that you're going to be able to have that will ever be acceptable to God.

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And it's not something that you can earn, purchase, put on yourself.

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It is something that Paul says when he's dealing with this same issue, in a sense, in the first century.

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He says to people, he says, look, if you want to compare resumes, essentially,

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I'll give you mine. I'm of the tribe of Benjamin. That's a big deal. And he says, as to the law, a

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Pharisee. OK, I'm at the top. I'm at the highest school, the most rigorous in terms of our life, our piety, our obedience, all of that.

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If you want to see how I'm doing with the law, rather tongue in cheek, blameless, Paul says.

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He says, but he, he says he counts all of that, all of that physical stuff, all of that, that piety, all that obedience, all that external stuff.

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He says I count as loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Jesus Christ, my

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Lord. And he says, and I want to be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that's derived from the law, but that which comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

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It's righteousness that comes from God. So this is the difference is not only. And I think you probably know this now, if you've watched our videos and you've been investigating, this church has taught you a false

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God. There is only one God. He has always existed as God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

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And Jesus is not Lucifer's brother. Jesus has existed from all eternity.

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There was never a beginning point for him. Right. He is preeminence. He is

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God. And he takes on flesh to do what this church cannot give you.

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And that's to live the life that you and I have failed before God. He is righteous and blameless.

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And he dies a death to take what we deserve for our whole life of sin.

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And he rose again from the dead. And that wasn't merely, it wasn't merely so that all of mankind would be resurrected on the last day.

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The resurrection of Jesus Christ was his conquering of death. But also he ascends to the throne to intercede for his people.

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And you need to hear this, that the call of the gospel was not, all right, step one.

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And then polish yourself, fix yourself, do this. And then live a life of obedience and try to pursue perfection so that God can look at you and sort of assess, are you righteous enough?

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Jesus died for sinners so that we could be reconciled to God through faith in him. See, one of the distinctions between what this church teaches and what the

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Bible teaches about salvation is peace with God. If you turn from your sin to put your faith in Jesus Christ, now, from where you stand, you will have peace with God.

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Now. True peace. Remember, there's very little peace in this world right now.

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In Israel right now, they would never describe the situation they're in as having true peace, true shalom, because they've got to have armies on their borders.

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They've got to have rockets ready to go. That's not true peace. When Paul said, therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

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Lord Jesus Christ. That's true shalom. That's true peace. It's not just a ceasefire.

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It's not something that, because it's not based on what you did, but what Christ did in your place, then it can be lasting peace.

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That's something that is worth everything this world has to offer, to know that you have peace with God.

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And the reason you can have it is because my sins were imputed to him. His righteousness has been imputed to me.

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So, what's the greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

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Second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. Which one of us could ever do that? We can't.

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But Christ did. The Son loved the Father perfectly. He lived a perfect life.

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So, the righteousness that is imputed to us is not just the removal of our sin. It's also the perfect life that he lived.

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So, if you are in him, then you have what only he can give you, which is true eternal life.

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But here's the problem. There's a lot of people who know all about Jesus. They've learned all sorts of facts about him, but they haven't embraced him.

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They're not in him. Knowing these things is not enough. You have to trust yourself to him.

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Cast yourself fully and completely upon him. And we're not talking about a kind of faith that's like if there was a chair sitting here and I said,

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I have faith this can hold me up. And then I'm doing this number slowly. Do I really have faith?

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No, I'm holding on to other things. Trusting Christ completely without any of my works, without any of the added things.

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It's either him or I'm not going to be saved. All him. That's what Christianity is really all about.

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It's focused upon who he is. And that righteousness is not something that you're going to get in ceremonies, in any type of...

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Because you know, even when you do your best, there's still a tinge. No, there's not a little tinge.

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It's a decent size. Exactly. Christ rips any of that pride and arrogance out of us.

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We can't have any pride and arrogance because we're not doing anything. We're casting ourselves completely upon him.

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If we're going to be saved, we'll be saved because of what he's done for us. He's either who he said he was or we'll be lost.

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So, if I could say this. And you may have heard this already, but just consider it.

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The distinction between what they told you about grace. They use the word. Which even then is hard to follow along how they teach it.

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Right, but they use the word. But there's got to be a moment where you recognize that what they said to you about grace is a perversion, a corruption of what

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God says grace is, his grace is. And we could do this all day, but just the comparison.

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By grace you've been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not according to works, lest any man should boast.

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Right, there's grace. The grace, the faith, it's gifted to you.

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The Bible even teaches that. If I'm going to believe in Christ, I am so broken, so lost, so sinful, so corrupt.

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I can't even come to God. I mean, I'll just say this in terms of God's sovereignty and what Scripture says. You're standing right where you're standing right now because God led your steps here.

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He's present in this very moment. That's the truth of Scripture, is that there's no accidents, there's no randomness.

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God's not learning anything. He decreed this moment for his purpose, and you need to hear this message.

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The message is that grace is a gift of God. It's a gift that not according to works, lest any man should boast.

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But what Joseph has in the Book of Mormon is an absolute perversion of that. It's a lie.

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It is a damaging, destructive, evil lie about grace. And he says, when it's recorded in the

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Book of Mormon, by grace you've been saved, after all you can do. Do you see the difference?

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By grace you're saved in spite of all you've done. Well, and I think that that's kind of what makes it hard. Rady and I would talk, and I'd be like,

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I feel like it's never good enough, right enough, strong enough.

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There is no, it is finished in Mormonism. It's never finished. I didn't like, you know, I was in the military.

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I went from place to place, so I never had true callings. But when you come home, and you visit home, and you're talking with family, you're talking about, oh, my calling's this, so I'm better.

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I've been working harder. And it's a constant, me feeling like, well,

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I can't really have one, because of my job. So I'm not where it needs to be, so I need to find a new job.

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I need to do this. That was always hard. It never ended. It was not fun.

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There were many times that I would cry, because I didn't do family homework, and I knew

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I should have. And I didn't read my scriptures to my kids, and I knew I should have. It was always just...

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So can I give you one, just real fast? So in terms of somebody who is justified through faith in Jesus, has been declared righteous by God, even though they do not deserve it, never will.

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We have no condemnation before God. We have peace with God. I can say right now, through faith in Jesus, through His work alone,

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I right now have peace with God. There is no condemnation. God does not count my sins against me, and He's counted me righteous apart from any works.

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That's in Romans 4. Because of Jesus? Because of Jesus. Because of Him alone. Because if you're in Him, you have to be in Him.

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Not just know about Him, but be in Him. Through faith. Through faith in Christ.

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Yeah, trusting in Him. But you mentioned the things that you do, the works that you thought you were doing.

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Well, there's a reason in Mormonism you do those. That's a righteousness, a worthiness you're trying to attain before God, because the work of Christ is not complete.

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It's not finished in Mormonism, right? I have to be righteous enough. I have to be worthy enough. Well, from a biblical perspective, when

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God saves me from my sins all by His grace, when He does that, He changes my heart and my mind.

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And the life that I live now as a believer, and this is one of the lies that the Mormon Church tells people often, is that we believe we need to live righteous lives.

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And Christians, they have this weird version where it's all by grace through faith, and they don't have to do anything. Do whatever you want. Yeah, that's a lie.

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Well, yeah, no. It's like your heart changes.

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Yes. Because of your understanding. You do what you do because of a changed nature.

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Not to try to gain something from God, but once your heart has been— The biblical picture is

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He takes out a heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh, and He's written His law upon it to where I delight to do what is right in God's Son.

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Not, oh, man, if I don't do this and this isn't— It's a 180 -degree difference because it's originating with God rather than originating in me.

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And I worship God, pursue God, obey

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God imperfectly, but I'm being sanctified because of His Spirit. But I do that as a believer.

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We do that as believers because we have peace with God, not to get it. And so we have things like family worship at home and all the rest.

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And I can tell you, as a family, we do family worship. Or when we go worship

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God or do evangelism or do missions of any sort, we are not in any way seeing this as a token, a trophy, a step towards more righteousness.

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Okay, now God is really pleased with me because I did some evangelism today. I'm doing this today, we're doing this today as worship to God and out of love for you.

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There was not a tinge in any of us of thinking, okay, now I'm accepted by God a little bit more today.

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It is all Christ. I want none of my good works on display before God.

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In terms of I don't want me to be looked at by a holy and perfect judge to be assessed according to His standard.

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If in any way my life is put before a holy God, He must judge me justly and I will be condemned and I deserve help.

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That's why Christians are hiding in Christ. We are covered in His righteousness.

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Being in Him. Picture it like this. This helps some people, but if you can see Jesus standing upon a beach and a tsunami is coming, it's

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God's wrath. The only place is going to be safe because God's wrath has no place in Him.

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He was perfect. He has no sin to atone for. So if I'm next to Him, what's going to happen when that tsunami hits?

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I'm going to get washed away. If I'm behind Him, same thing. The only safe place is to be what?

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In Him, united to Him. I have to have what only He can give to me, which is perfect righteousness.

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So then how do you know when you are in Him and not next to Him? Your body will get ruined.

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So can I answer that? Okay, so when the Gospel came out in the

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New Testament consistently from the mouth of Jesus and the apostles after, the message was preached, proclaimed about who

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Christ is, what He accomplishes, and what He gives. So like Jesus says in John 5, 24,

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That's past tense, but that's a promise of Jesus. So the call is, do you hear

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Him? Do you hear His grace, His salvation, who He is, what He offers in the

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Gospel? I think I do. And then the message of the Gospel is, repent and believe.

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Now repentance is not like you're going to come to God perfectly repenting of all of your sins and like, okay, did I do this and this and this and this?

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It's a change of mind. It's a turning away from where you're going. You've been pursuing, and I'm saying this with such humility to you, you've been pursuing a false

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God your whole life. You've had a false message of hope your whole life that has left you where you're at today.

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You have brokenness as an image bearer of God in terms of your relationship with God is broken, separated from God, it teaches in Scripture.

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We are justly condemned by God. The wrath of God abides in us outside of Christ.

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And the call of the Gospel is to turn away from that life of sin and the pursuit of darkness to God.

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And you put your faith, like Pastor James says, you're throwing yourself onto Christ. You're putting your faith in Him and trust in Him and what

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He's accomplished. You're abandoning all sin and self -righteousness. You have to come to Him with your empty hands.

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You've been coming to the Mormon God with stuff. With your family home evenings and temple endowments and missions work and everything else.

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God's hand of grace requires an empty hand of faith on your part.

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He doesn't need any of your tokens. You can't give Him, can I give you a dollar?

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No. You can't have anything there. The only hand that's going to embrace God's hand of grace is an empty hand of faith.

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Read Romans 4, it's this whole point there. It has to be by faith so it can be by grace.

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It has to be God's freely giving, undeservedly. We don't bring anything and say,

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I claim this, I claim that. Only thing I claim is my sin and my just condemnation and I trust totally in your salvation.

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That's why there was an empty tomb. I know they've talked about an empty tomb. Don't throw the reality of that historical truth.

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There was an empty tomb. What that empty tomb means is what that one accomplished on the cross.

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Everyone who's united to Him, that's His. That becomes your death. That becomes your empty tomb.

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New life. That's why baptism is being died, buried, risen in newness of life.

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It's not just something you do in a temple someplace. It's not just a ritual. It's supposed to picture what has happened in our lives.

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When I trust Him, what He did 2 ,000 years ago, I am united to Him in His death, burial, and resurrection.

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Therefore, I have His righteousness and I have peace with God. Can both of you hear this? Okay? Hear this, and I want you to think about what it means and how this and nothing else in the world cannot offer you it.

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Nothing. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Did you hear it?

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That was one sentence. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll be saved. Let me ask you this.

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Do you hear the simplicity of that message? Yeah. That that's the glory of God's grace in the gospel.

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That's the call. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. And then the person who has had their mind corrupted.

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Is that their fault, though? No, no, no, no. No, no, no. Listen, I mean in terms of you've had all of these false perspectives of grace and salvation poured into you.

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So your mind has been unable to see grace for what it truly is. You have to deal with that.

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Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you'll be saved. Yeah, but there has to be something else. There must be more.

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Let me know enough, figure out enough, fix myself enough. And then somehow, and the answer from Scripture is no.

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If you attempt to come to God through your own righteousness to any degree, well, okay,

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James says, all right, you want that? You want to obey the law? Okay, you've got to fulfill all of it perfectly.

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Perfectly. Whosoever shall. Who did. Yeah, Jesus. So the only way is to be totally and completely in him and in him alone.

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That's the only way. Okay, but like, okay. So if you're like a super good going

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Mormon and you believe in everything we teach, having a corrupt understanding of Jesus and God and all of it, is that your fault?

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Is that their fault? Are they condemned for that? Well, let's put it this way.

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Let's use a different group so you don't have the same emotional attachment, right? Oh, I don't care if they are. I just want to know.

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Let's just put it this way. If Jesus is who he claimed to be, the eternal son of God, creator of all things, this massive universe, he holds it all together by the word of his power, and yet he entered into his own creation, lived the perfect life, was mocked and derided by people, gave himself on a tree he himself created, so as to provide redemption, can you imagine the arrogance of us coming along and saying, yeah, that's really cool, but we'd like to have a different way.

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Could you do it some other way? No. God has the right to say, I have provided the perfect way of salvation, and if you try to go some other direction, there's going to be no hope there.

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But if you're born into that other direction, you literally have very minimal, if none, opportunity for...

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And yet you yourself said that even as a Mormon, you knew you were living up to the standard of being a

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Mormon. It's sort of like this. One famous writer put it this way, it doesn't matter what religion you are, if you put a recorder, an

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MP3 recorder, around every person's neck, as soon as they start talking, and it only turns on to record their moral judgments of others, and then judge them by that standard, would anyone, everybody would be in trouble.

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It doesn't matter whether you're a Muslim, a Mormon, a Buddhist, or anybody else, none of us lives up to that standard.

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And so what scripture says is, God has revealed that he exists, and we suppress that knowledge, we hold it down.

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And we do so through our false religion, maybe through our apathy, maybe through our love of stuff, money, whatever it is, we suppress that knowledge and don't give him what he is our creator, is worthy of receiving from us.

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That's why it takes a work of God's spirit, changing our hearts. And it's a radical work.

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And our prayer is, is that when you sat down to type that letter, that that was a part of God's working in you.

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It was a rough one. That would be our prayer. What he was quoting from just now was

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Romans chapter 1. We don't always give you the verses, in terms of here's the verse, but Romans chapter 1 was what

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Pastor James was describing there, is that there's that point. Suppression of the knowledge. Humanity.

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Yeah, but they're working hard, they're doing the best. There's times where we are the victims of other people's sin and false teachings in our lives, right?

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And there's times where we are the perpetrators of sin, right? This fallen world and our sin and all of us are guilty before God.

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There's lots of things happening every day. Sometimes we're victims of other sin, and sometimes we're the ones that victimize other people.

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But the teaching of Scripture is that all of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Humanity is divided in Scripture into two groups.

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One, those who are in Adam, those who are fallen, sinful, sons and daughters, all of us, of Adam and Eve.

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You're either in Adam, where there is death and there is condemnation, or you're in Christ, where there is forgiveness, peace with God, and the gift of eternal life.

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And so that is the question, is who are you in? And that's Romans 5. Yeah. So I'll give his references for it.

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But that's Romans 5. That's really the question, is who are you in? If you're in Adam, all you can get from Adam is what he's passed on to his children, and that's death, rebellion.

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If you're in Christ, then you receive what he gives, which is eternal life. I think what I understand what you're saying.

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But I still have the earn it mentality. Like, because...

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Yeah. But Christ earned it. I know. So what I'm saying is that, like, where I earned a temple marriage, and I earned a temple recommend, and I maintained that, whatever, that, like, kind of was, like, my good

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Mormon sticker. And so, it was. Yeah. And so if I am in Christ, that's only for me to know?

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Only for you to know? Yeah, like, I don't need, like, you, like, can you tell me if I am?

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Or, like, I just become, I just have a better understanding. I can't look into your heart, but when someone is changed, their desires are changed, their nature is changed, and they will want to be together with other believers in the worship of Jesus.

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Okay. And so that's what baptism, for example, is. It's your public profession of that death, burial, and resurrection with Jesus.

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And then the Lord's Supper, which is massively de -emphasized and perverted within Mormonism.

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The Lord's Supper then becomes a regular event where we as believers are reminded of the great price that was paid for our redemption.

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And it's a beautiful thing with a body together. We are called to be a part of a body.

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I mean, God gives us not just an organization, but local churches where we worship

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God, where we see baptism done, the Lord's Supper, the Word of God is preached. And there's a desire in our heart to be a part of that.

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I mean, right now there's a lot of Chinese Christians that are being arrested and are being imprisoned.

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And I can tell you that one of the greatest things that they suffer in that imprisonment is not being able to be around other believers and to have that fellowship and to have the

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Lord's Supper and things like that. I can assure you, we just finished a series at the church, we're all pastors in the same church here, on the

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Lord's Supper. And it has really, for me, has really deepened my real appreciation of that.

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But that's, I think what you're asking about is how do you know and how does anyone else know?

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I'm not more concerned about the anyone else. I'm way more concerned about how I know. Go ahead.

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Okay, so I think I'm hearing you. Tell me if I'm aiming at the right spot. So do you have the ability to know?

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And is there anything we can say to you in terms of authoritatively? I would say yes, in this sense.

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So Scripture says, These things have been written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God, that you might know that you have eternal life.

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God wants you to know. Not might there. I teach the original language, and it's the result.

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So it's not, we're not sure. It's not a hesitancy. It is a purpose result clause.

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So the result of your faith is you have eternal life. Yeah, so God wants you to know that you have presently eternal life.

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And on what basis? These things have been written unto you that believe on the name of the

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Son of God. Do you notice there? There's no believe, and then temple marriage, and then baptism, and then this, and then family home evening, and everything else.

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That you who believe might know that you have eternal life. And there is, yes, we do have the ability to declare

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God's promises to you that if you have turned from sin, if you're trusting in Christ, you have eternal life.

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You are not condemned. Now here's the answer. I'm not God, so I can't see into the heart of every professing believer.

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There was a weirdo over there a second ago that was doing some strange stuff and naming the name of Christ and everything else.

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And he can name the name of Christ with his lips. I can't see into his heart. I can listen to what he's saying and see, oh, something's wrong there.

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But I can't see into everyone's heart. But I can say to the person who says, I know who

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Jesus is. Here's who he is. Here's what he's accomplished. And I am trusting in him right now for salvation and for forgiveness.

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Then, yes, we have the ability to say from Scripture, Jesus promises this, eternal life, forgiveness, peace with God, reconciliation with God.

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That, yes, you can know that you have eternal life. And that confidence is something that obviously grows as you come to know him greater.

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We are called to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's the greatest desire of our heart to know him more.

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Because the more I know him, the more I end up finding out about myself. It's not always a good thing to find out about in the process, let me assure you.

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But to get to know him. And so I'm a grandfather now.

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I've walked through so many things in my life. And I've seen him keep me.

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And I've seen him sustain me. I've seen him change my heart. And that does grow my confidence.

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But that's not what puts me in him. That's just the fact that not only does he save me, he then wants to make me like Jesus.

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And that can be a bit of a painful process. Yeah, yes. Because he doesn't just simply give me eternal life.

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Now he's going to use my life in this world to make me like Christ.

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And if your nature's changed, it's what you want. If your nature isn't changed, that's the last thing you want.

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You want to be able to satisfy all your desires and all your wants and everything else. But once your heart's changed, no,

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I want what he wants for me. Even when it's really, really difficult. And we have people in our fellowship, you know, they have struggles.

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And there's, you know, physical issues. And we don't know why God puts one person through one thing and not another.

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But God works in our lives to make us like Christ. And so when you talk about good works, we believe in good works.

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Sure, because of it. Because that's what God is intending to do in us. And it's what we want to do.

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It's the desire of our heart. But it's not what makes us right with him. We're not striving for worthiness.

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There is one who is worthy. If you're in him, then you have peace with God. So put it this way, as simple as this.

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If we stand before the Father, if we stand before God, and he was to ask the...

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This is not a real scenario in terms... I don't think it's going to be this complicated in terms of we know who we are before God.

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And when the veil is ripped off and we're standing before God, people understand his holiness and their sin. But if there was ever a question, why should

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I let you into my presence? Why should we have peace together? The answer from every believer is to point directly to Christ and his work.

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And never... Oh, because I... I do not want to any degree for the

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Father to look at me and assess me in terms of how are you doing, are you righteous enough, to any degree.

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I only want Jesus. I only plead that. And I want to say that I've been in Christ now for a while, by God's grace.

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And there's two things that have happened. One is that I have a much greater awareness of my own sinfulness, much greater awareness, because of sanctification and walking with him and knowing him.

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And I also have a much, much deeper confidence in who he is and my peace with him.

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My understanding of eternal life and my security in him has grown far greater than it ever was when

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I first heard the gospel and understood it. And my awareness of my own sinfulness has grown. But there's no complication there in terms of as a

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Christian going, oh, now I'm really aware of how broken and foul I am and how much God needs to transform me.

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And so, therefore, I've got to climb that ladder and I've got to get right with God. No, I'm hiding in Jesus. The same today as the first moment

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I turn to trust in him. Because where is Jesus right now? According to Scripture, he's at the right hand of the

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Father, interceding for those who have placed their faith in him. And since he has fulfilled all of the law, lived a perfect life, and given himself, how can the

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Father ever reject one for whom Christ intercedes? The intercession of Christ is one of the most nothing in this world.

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I do a lot of study of the persecuted church and things like that. That's what led me into doing a lot with Islam.

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And one of the things that the persecuted believers find so precious is that no matter what the world does to us, they can't touch where Jesus is.

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And in Colossians 3 .3 it says to believers, For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

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So let me use this ring as an illustration. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

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Get that ring out of my hand without going through my hands first. You can't.

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If I've died, and I'm in Christ, and he's in the Father, can there be a more secure place?

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Nothing in this world can ever get to the person who is in Christ. And that is worth everything this world will ever offer.

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Because you guys are young, and I'm not anymore. But I was yesterday.

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This is a short, short life. Nothing this world has to offer is worth what

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Christ gives you in eternal life. You wrote in your thing that you want to know

40:46

God, right? Now I want you to hear this. This is something very important you're hearing from me right now. It's so vital that when you contemplate the gospel, and who

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Christ is, and what he's done, and your need for him, that you come to him because you need him.

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Not because anybody is around us. Not because this is on. Not manipulation.

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Not emotion. You need him because you need him. You've got to come to him for him. But you can't hang on the edge of, well,

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I'll get to that. Right? You know what I mean? Like, I'll figure it out. There was a girl

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I was fairly recently talking to, LDS, had a long conversation with, and she said to me,

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I know it's false. I know it's a lie. I know what you're saying is true. And I said, so do you want to turn to Christ and trust him?

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Now, from where you sit. And I'm still working. I'm still working. I know what you're saying is true.

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I know this is false. I know I need Jesus. But I don't know. Well, seeing, like, being similar to that girl, you can't, it's so much more complicated than that in, like, a cultural aspect.

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Oh, sure. No question. And I think that that is what holds so many people so tightly.

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I know. So. Are you from around this area? Oh, yeah. Born and raised. Okay. Well, there are good fellowships here that are filled with people that have had to make the same sacrifices.

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There's a gentleman over here that came to Christ out of Mormonism his whole life. He's a pastor now.

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He leads a local group where he helps people who are coming out of Mormon, Mormonism to Christ.

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He helps them to go through that transition. It's good to have a community when the other community says, we don't want you.

42:42

Yeah. Oh, yeah. But knowing what you know, you don't have that community now in reality anyways.

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In which way? If you already know that Mormonism. Oh, no. Yeah, no, I'm past that point. That community has already, exactly.

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Yeah, I'm past that point, and I'm just telling you, it's lonely and rough out here. I know.

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That's why you need something more than, yeah. You need to be, listen, you need to be loved and encouraged.

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You need to be loved and encouraged. And taught. And grounded in patience.

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And please, if the Lord graciously draws you to himself in this way, resist every effort of anyone to drag you off into becoming someone who's running around and speaking about being an ex -Mormon.

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Get grounded. Give yourself time to come to know what has truly been revealed in Scripture.

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I was just talking with a brother. He's talked about how for years, all these lenses that Mormonism had put into his mind that he's had to, oh, man, that was from my

43:43

Mormonism. That doesn't fit. You have to get that out of the way. I say it's my Mormon brain. That's what we say. Mormon brain, Mormon lenses.

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Exactly, exactly. Give yourself time. Don't let anyone push you into something in that way.

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It's really, really important. You need to walk with him. Experience him. Listen, here's the thing. Jesus does not need me.

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Oh, no. Or him. That's right. He doesn't need us. And so all this work we're doing out here to serve you, to love you, to point you to him, he doesn't even need us.

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He's all -powerful. He can do whatever he wants. He can bring anybody along the way. He doesn't need us, and he doesn't need you in terms of your standing up somewhere and shouting and leading all of Salt Lake to Christ sort of a thing.

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If he's calling you to himself, it's for his glory, for the glory of his grace. If he's calling you to himself, it's for salvation, for forgiveness, for his glory, not for what you can throw in the hat or what you can do.

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And I certainly want to encourage you to stop being concerned about all the different parts and pieces that need to be in order.

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That's really hard. Yeah, and here's the key thing, and this is what I was trying to get at, and I don't always communicate it well.

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If you're coming to Christ to trust in him, to receive eternal life, to know him, you're coming in faith with nothing.

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So there's not a laundry list of things that you need to understand perfectly and have this together, that together, and fix this and do that or do this.

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Okay, now I can come to Jesus. That's what I meant about teetering sort of on the edge. When Jesus is calling crowds to come to him, it's decision time, and he scatters people.

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And that, by the way, is one of the things you need to hear in terms of, like, what is a false evangelical message propagated today is

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Jesus teaches a message that scatters everyone. He says, if you come to me, you have to come and die or don't come.

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And this is a beautiful thing is that it scatters the crowd and everyone walks away. And he goes from thousands back down to 12, and there's a point where he's separating the crowds and comes down again.

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People don't like his teaching. They think it's strange. And then Jesus says to his disciples, do you also want to leave?

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And they say this. They understood. They said, where are we going to go? You have the words of eternal life.

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They knew. And I want to encourage you to hear that. No manipulation, not for anything but you and your relationship with God.

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You have to turn to Christ to live. Our prayer is that you will hear echoing in your heart and your mind.

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The rest of this day and tonight, there's only one place I'm going to find eternal life.

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And it's worth everything. It's only going to be in Jesus. Now, obviously, if you want to get hooked up with solid people here, we want to help you do that.

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Oh, we definitely do. Because like Googling things and talking amongst each other is not right. Right. There are.

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God has his people. And you do need encouragement. You need to be grounded. And be patient with them, too.

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They ain't perfect. Sure, sure. And if there was a perfect church, as soon as you joined it, you ruined it. That's that.

47:03

That's my view, too. Right? Exactly. Isn't that right? Isn't that right? I don't want to join a perfect church because if I do,

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I ruin it. So that's just the way it is. But, yeah, you can't do this alone because the world will wear you down.

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The last thing, please, I would never want to run into you five years from now if you're just out in the world.

47:23

Oh, no. Because there's nothing out there for you. I think, like, kind of like in my letter, like, and I'm so worried, like.

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Oh, you need to get over it. There's a good reason to be serious. There is a good reason to be serious. And he was always trying to get him to come do something, and it's just like, no.

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But I've got to fill it with something else. Yeah, that's the problem, is that he understands the inaccuracies and everything, why

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Mormonism doesn't add up. But, like you said, filling it with something else. Especially, like,

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I can't fill that because I don't know it. I don't understand it. Right, right, right. That was part of, that kind of helped us, is you could explain simple stuff to the children, and they'd be like, well, that's not right.

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I mean, that's not, that's not the time. Yeah, well, shoot. Yeah. So we've got to fill it.

48:15

Well, there's a famous preacher named Charles Spurgeon. Solid Christian preacher. And I love, there's one of his sermons he gave that I, it stuck with me.

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I've never forgotten it. And that's when he was preaching the gospel, preaching his congregation. There's always a knowledge that there's people in the congregation that are not saved, truly in Christ.

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Maybe they're visiting. Maybe they've pretended for a long time. It happens. And Spurgeon would say, at the end he'd say, turn to Christ from where you sit.

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Like, don't move a muscle until you turn to Christ. And so that's, what

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I want you to hear is in terms of, you came today, God and His providence had us cross paths, handed me a letter, and here we are, you've heard the gospel, you've heard the call of the gospel.

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You say you want Christ. And so that's what I would say to you right now is, turn to Christ from where you stand.

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You don't even have to sit down. Right. Might be here a minute. Yeah. I mean, what

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I would encourage you to do, if you, I, this, I want to tell you, I have a very sensitive spot in my heart for this, and I don't always announce this, but I will tell you this.

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Because of the manipulation of this church, and because of all that's happened to you in your life, because of all that you've experienced in terms of people saying things to you that were not true, and you just sort of biting down, right, and sort of accepting it, now you're going, wait a second.

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I don't want to be on this ride anymore. Yeah, no, exactly. I'm always very cautious in a moment like this, where it seems like God is really moving to open your eyes, to give you the truth, to say, hey, do you want to, you know, do you want to pray right now?

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Like, I would actually encourage you to go together and sit somewhere alone. Talk about what we said.

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And talk about what we just said to you. And I want to step away, because I don't want in any way to manipulate, or to have this be any emotion -based sort of a thing.

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It has to be because of the truth. I don't like that emotion. Yeah, well, because you've been played with so much.

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So what do you get Sunday? What do you get? It's a crying contest. Yeah. Right? I don't like it. It's a crying contest.

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If I had the experience, I felt this, that can't be done to you right now.

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So I would really encourage you to go somewhere, be alone together, contemplate this, and then turn to Christ and live.

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And you have my number now on your phone. Oh, yeah. Save it. Call me. Let's talk.

50:50

I'd love to help you some more. We'll give you, we'll send you free resources. We can talk. Anything you want. We'll give everything to you you need.

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If you've got questions, we're more than happy to remove barriers or anything like that.

51:03

So, like, when you say go pray. Yes. Not for a feeling. In a way of commitment, not for a feeling.

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No one has suggested to you that you go pray and, Lord, make us feel good about this. No, no, no, no, no.

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What he's talking about is saying, Christ, you are all

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I need. I'm no longer dragging anything in front of you and trying to buy your favor with all the little baubles and beads

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I have my entire life. You are the eternal creator. You are my maker. You have given eternal life to me.

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I accept. I return from my sin. Whatever you want from me,

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I'm yours. That's all we're talking about. We're not talking about looking for feelings. No. Now, you may have feelings.

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Yes, yes. And you will have feelings in your Christian life. We're not trying to say that.

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But we never base Christ's truth upon our experiences. We experience it.

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So then when you pray, do you feel like it's more talking to him and professing of who he is through prayer?

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Or do you feel like you can ask him for things through prayer? Both. You certainly can.

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It's true communication. But remember, when Jesus said, anything you ask, believing, you shall receive, that's right after he talks about our submission to his will.

52:24

Okay, because I really struggle with the thought that you can pray and ask for anything because...

52:32

According to his will, which would mean, Lord, change me so that what

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I desire is what you want from me. I'm not trying to change him.

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Okay. He's changing me through prayer. See the difference? See, if we're looking up, if we're down here as creatures and we're looking up at him, it sounds like we're trying to convince him to be a genie in the sky or to be better.

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Lord, heal somebody or something like that. Be better than you're being right now. Bless my pizza. Instead, true prayer,

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I'm worshiping him. I'm recognizing I'm his creature. And I am willing to bow to his will for me.

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And then he changes my heart so that now I desire what he desires for me.

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Not changing his heart to desire what I desire for me. To do what I'm asking for. Exactly.

53:25

It's a God -centered thing, not a man -centered thing. Okay. The true God is bigger than the man, exalted man you were told about.

53:35

That's right. He is incomprehensible, but very near, very personal, more sovereign than you ever understood.

53:45

I mean, this very moment sustains our breath, our heartbeats. He's keeping us to the ground.

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And whether you understand it and I understand it fully or not, but every step of the way that brought you to this moment was sovereignly brought about.

53:59

Very personal. Very intimate. God has been very gracious to you. Yes. Think about it.

54:06

This has been all grace. So you do have all the contact information? She has my number.

54:12

Okay. And there's obviously, there's much more that can be said on the historical stuff, but don't let that get in the way of doing, of accepting that grace, that empty hand of faith.

54:29

Don't let anything get in the way. Peace with God. That's what you need. And it's only in Jesus. So trust

54:35

Him. And two people at peace with God can then have peace with one another. I think we do pretty good.

54:42

Good. Good. Can we pray for you? Yes. Okay. All right. Father, thank you,

54:48

Lord, for this amazing providential moment. Thank you, Lord, that you gave Sarah the courage to write that letter.

54:55

And thank you, Lord, for the support of her husband. And thank you, God, that she was able to find me and to slip it into my hand.

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And thank you that you brought us together to have this conversation. We just pray right now, Lord. We don't know,

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Lord, what you know. But we ask that you would please open the eyes and hearts of these two wonderful people in front of us.

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Grant to them an understanding of your salvation and grace. Lord, I pray that you would grant to them repentance and faith and trust in Christ and what

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He's accomplished. Pray you bless them and grow them in you. Protect them.

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Lord, allow them to be firm in their understanding of who you are. Fill them with your truth for your glory.