Epic Debate Over God's Existence

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Good evening everyone. Thank you so much for coming here tonight It's really an honor to have so many of you come out, you know

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But I know this is also a subject that's near and dear to a lot of people's hearts What we have here tonight is six men of honor six men with the integrity to come out here and actually argue

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In a public arena for what they believe or what they do not believe now

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We're gonna hear a lot of interesting things from both sides tonight We're gonna give everyone their opportunity to speak and we've got a format here

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That I'll tell you about as to how this debate is going to go First for the

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Christians sigh ten Bruggen Cate is a member of the associate reform Presbyterian Church and by God's grace alone

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He is a Christian Pastor Jeff Durbin is the pastor of apologia

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Church in Tempe, Arizona And he was also Johnny Cage in the Mortal Kombat movies the tour the tour

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Also pastor Paul Vigiano has been the pastor of Branch of Hope Presbyterian Church That's the church that you're in right now in Torrance, California for 25 years

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Now for our atheist friends Bruce Gleason is the founder of the backyard skeptics with over 1 ,400 members

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He's the director of the free thought alliance and supports the philosophy that one who lives a naturalistic and materialistic world view

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And has no supernatural beliefs will make better decisions about his or her life

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He believes that people of faith unknowingly cause harm Sean Taylor in the middle

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Sean is an active member of the secular humanist skeptic and atheist communities in Southern, California He has since devoted much time into scholarly research on modern religions the

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Bible the Quran and the philosophies and history surrounding them Our third speaker on the end is

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Andrew breeding who recently graduated from Cal State Fullerton with a degree in philosophy specializing in ethics his interests are computers politics and sushi

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Now as for the format you recognize that it's a bit unusual and the reason for that is we don't have just one speaker speaking to one speaker

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There really is a call in today's society to have the conversation openly airing grievances and doing analysis

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So we have three speakers for each side each speaker will get the opportunity to speak the first speaker will speak an opening statement of 20 minutes and the other side all three of them will have the opportunity to cross -examine

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At the same time if that speaker chooses to defer a question He may ask either of his other partners to answer that question for him

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Then the next speaker from the other side will have 20 minutes in the same format Then the next speaker for side a will have a 15 minute rebuttal uninterrupted

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Followed by a 5 minute cross -examination by the other side and then the other side will have the same opportunity

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After that there will be a 10 minute closing argument by each side Uninterrupted giving a synopsis and their analysis of the content of the debate after that We will open up the floor for your comments and questions

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Now at this time we would usually pray, but we don't want to give an unfair advantage to either side

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So at this time we will have our honored guest Bruce Glenn Gleason begin his direct arguments

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Thanks for coming. I understand. This is a conference over the weekend. Is this like your entertainment instead of a big dance?

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I understand. I rather have a big party myself. Let's let's just forget this and have a big party.

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No, okay Can't do that. Okay Well, I'd like to take the temperature of the room here. How many

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Christians are here tonight? Raise your hands. How many atheists? Thank you for coming

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Okay, how many young earth creationists are here Christians that believe in a 6 ,000 year old how many

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Christians here believe in an old earth 4 .5 million billion years old Okay, just wanted to see where we're at right there

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Before we go on I need to explain what an atheist is. There's a lot of misconceptions of atheists No, we're not baby eaters

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That's from the South from years ago. Forget it An atheist assumes that there's no

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God asserts that there's no God or gods. That's pretty much it There's no agenda.

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No mantra. No dogma. No text It's a secular humanist philosophy

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Are there variations? Yes, there are variations. I happen to be and it was called an antitheist I promote atheism because I think it's a better worldview to live by There's also strong atheists that say there is no

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God There are soft atheists or weak atheists to say I don't believe in a god.

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There might be a god. That's not Agnosticism that is atheism. There are two different things going on here, but I'm an atheist because I don't reject the

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Bible It's because I read it I have examined all the apologists arguments over the past 10 years and have not found one void of fallacy

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I have gone on a quest to find the truth and through the Socratic method of questioning

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I have found it and the truth for me is that the supernatural does not exist Are we up there?

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Good. I'll take the first shot across the bow Thank you, Sean my loyal assistant

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Psy will probably say that he knows that I really do believe in a God that means he knows what's going on inside my head

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And all of your heads as well Not only that is Extremely presumptuous and silly but downright arrogant

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I think no one knows what's going on inside my head or anyone else here when I say I don't believe in a

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God He has no justification to tell me otherwise free suppositionalists start with the

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Bible and their own definition of God that conflicts with many other Christian sects out there and Does not question he will not give any evidence besides Personal revelation and the

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Bible tonight if he does after the 25 debates that I've seen on YouTube, it'll be the first Scientific skeptics like myself and atheists have a habit of doing just that Questioning questioning everything and gladly admitting.

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We don't know anything to be 100 % true. We base our opinions on the probability That something is true based on evidence it appears that Jeff and Psy are downright wrong because just because Naturalistic philosophy does not obtain an absolute knowledge.

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It does not mean God did it That's a false dichotomy.

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One of the many fallacies you might hear tonight. I hope you're up on your fallacies red herrings special pleading

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Presubs build a bridge to an island. They cross the bridge. Where's the bridge Sean?

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Okay timeout we're gonna have to put a timeout on our Nope go back.

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There it is. Thank you. Stay on top side stand up Sean They they crossed a bridge to the island and then they burned the bridge if they were 100 % wrong

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They wouldn't even know it They are totally on the offensive and offer no defense whatsoever with they've offered offenses with That withstands fallacies on top of fallacy.

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They tried to turn difficult Philosophical unresolved issues into insolvable unresolvable

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Issues and listen for that tonight. This is not how philosophy works surprisingly My opponents are actually going to argue against themselves tonight

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Because any religion with any holy text can say the exactly the same thing that they are saying I claim that logic and reason came from a natural evolution mystic

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Progress but the difference is I have strong evidence from anthropology and evidence and evolutionary psychology

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And presupposition lists have empty claims with zero evidence. So let's take a look at God's existence okay, here we go run time a

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Good starting point is to examine if God believe God exists is to start with the assumption of the null hypothesis

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What is that? Not believing in God's existence the reason we have to do this is because if we believe in a

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God told to us that Existed it would take more than a human's lifetime to examine all the different gods if a

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Muslim was up here right now You would probably think he was delusional if a Hindu is up here.

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You probably thought he was mistaken But an atheist differs from any believer in that we reject the belief in all gods

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If I told you I believe in a God that you haven't heard about from this position

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You would have to start at the null hypothesis because you wouldn't know anything about the

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God Let's take a look at personal revelation. And this is a big one Since the method of choice of how pre sub pre

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Supposition lists gain knowledge. We are all humans humans can be mistaken

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Therefore everyone on earth can be mistaken. This logical statement can be said by most everyone except for those

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Strong and their supernatural beliefs so much that they do not Know that they can be mistaken if you are one of these people in this debate tonight

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You might think about the possibility that you might be misled or possible Possibly you have not examined the opposite opinion and that's one of my best sayings tonight my axiom

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The best way to know what is true is to study the best argument against your opinion The best way to know what is true.

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That's it. That's what we do as skeptics It's my guess that my opposite my opponents will say they cannot be delusional because they believe in a revelation from God just like Every other person on earth that believes in a different God.

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This is a vacuous claim Suppose you're a pre supposition list and God gave you a revelation that you would call absolute knowledge very much like they do

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Then and you were certain it was true Then later you changed your mind because you found convincing evidence that this knowledge was untrue.

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Does this mean that God was wrong? More likely it would be that they were misled

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Either by a malicious God or simply their own belief if you believe that you misinterpreted

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God's Word What's to say you can't do it again? The pre supposition lists receive knowledge

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Through what excuse me the pre subs happened to receive knowledge through Boy, I blew that one can pre subs receive knowledge about other things like a

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Medical a medical degree eight years of education Pray and it'll be done.

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What type of knowledge is sigh and Jeff actually looking at? It's not called knowledge.

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It's just strong belief Suppose that one person received revelation from a God and says it's knowledge and the other person or for a matter 300 people receive personal revelation that conflicts with that one person whose

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God's is Revelation is truly God's Word. No one can tell I think personal revelation is a very dangerous thing

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You can do very bad things while thinking you will have immunity From any punishment because you're doing

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God's work. Here are some examples Virginia Tech 2007 His mother knew that he had psychological problems.

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And what did she do instead of go to a psychiatrist? She went to a minister and prayed 32 children kids students are killed because she didn't have the right personal revelation

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Andrea H 2001 kilter for children because God told her to kill them prevent to prevent them from going to hell

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Jim Jones 1978 300 people died because of his personal revelation and finally just last week a 19 year old was killed by his own pastor father back up back up Sean.

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I I'm gonna have to put on hold for a moment. There we go. Thank you Sean parents arrested after 19 year old their son

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Died just go through the next one Sean, please. I Don't think that we're working here

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Miss something missing. Okay, we'll continue on They beat him to death took two hours

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His 17 year old lived and he was beaten almost to death By personal revelation in a church

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War does the same thing. This is about war Sean. We're okay now do two sides of war pray to each

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God You might want to lower that down a little bit. Mr. Soundman. How about football games? Mr. Tebow and This is the worst one allowing your child to pray to die.

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This is a little bit. Oh boy Some pictures did not come through Okay, I'll pass that one up horrible things can happen when using this type of reasoning

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Let's go to the attributes of God because that's really what this debate is about The Christians description of a

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God is one with no physical attributes. He has no matter no energy yet his mind

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He has a mind and can move things like planets stars mountains and give men special revelations, but he has no matter energy

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How does he actually do the work? How can there be a mind in total vacuous space?

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If God has special powers at work, wouldn't we see that in the universe with our most sensitive telescopes, but we don't see anything

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Supernatural over of a 30 the 12 billion excuse me 13 point point 5 billion years

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We've been around we don't see any stars going faster than the speed of light We don't see anything that breaks the laws of physics and shouldn't the power be so great and God should be so easily seen

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Because he's so powerful we don't see God's power with our most sensitive scientific earth -based instruments that can discover the

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Majesty of some atomic particles and even see into our brains and it will be into this

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Subatomic or not the subatomic but atomic particles shortly. God works in mysterious ways

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They might say but it's unreasonable to explain a mystery with another mystery

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If God exists and is omniscient. He knows everything from the beginning of time If he knew everything that was going to happen as told in the

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Bible, why does he seem so upset? Are we moving here Sean? Thank you And one more one more

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I think Sean I'm not sure about that, okay Why does he seem so angry? God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

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This is going into a little bit of philosophy. But if God is unchanging immutable Perfectly made the universe.

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It's a hands -off God He can't have the power to change anything because that would be admitting he was wrong.

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He's immutable. He's non -changing He set everything up Did God create us humans knowing ahead of time that most of us would end up in hell?

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That God doesn't sound like a loving God to me we should have the hell picture up there Sean What would a loving

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God really kill nearly everyone on earth and call it love Even size previously agreed in other debates that this is not the loving

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God that most Christians believe in What this sounds like is a story that is made up to instill fear in people

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Made up so people will obey men's laws that are attributed to a so -called God Would adjust

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God offer a total ignorant man and woman the chance and we are stuck. Can I have a timeout

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Christopher? We are stuck Christopher and the

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AV guy. I'm praying really hard. It's not working Okay.

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Well, we'll take a one -minute break How many people are gonna have questions afterward?

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Oh Come on, too. I Have to be more interesting than that We were stuck on the hell thing now

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Would I make a good preacher if I was a believer, I don't know

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I'm pretty passionate Well, he agrees. I think

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I would be Do we have any bouncers here tonight?

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They're still working This is a new system, by the way, I'm not blaming you if you want timeout you have to be remain silent

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If you want timeout you must remain silent, I was just trying to be entertaining

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That wasn't in the rulebook. I'm just kidding. You're crazy. Just kidding. Yeah Okay now on the left should be the numbers there

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Sean on the left is there numbers there Yeah, that's Adam and Eve. Very good. If God knew

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Adam and Eve we're gonna eat the fruit Then it's not Adam and Eve's fault for eating it. They had no other choice to obey

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God's plan Should we really blame them for original sin, even if God knew it and I know what you're gonna say

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They had a choice. No, they didn't have a choice if you think God is of an ignition and there is no free will

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And There is no way around this problem God's God knows the next thought in our heads before we even think it we do not have a choice

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If God is omniscient It's a very difficult problem for Christians to overcome

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God knew it all along Most of us know that it's impossible to obey everything in the Bible obey everything in the

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Bible in modern society But I got a solution What if God changed the

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Bible every Bible in the entire world at all at once God couldn't punch Expunge outdated verses and put in new ones.

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He could possibly make a different color for every hundred years now That would be a supernatural act. I could respect if There was a perfect Christian God with perfect communication.

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Why would he have? 44 ,000 sex all believing different things. Is this the right?

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Design that a God would have if he was perfect Why would God put the writing of his words in the hand of such fallible species as humans anyway?

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God could just create the Bible from nothing poof and have it magically appear in every country in the world and all the languages

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All at once that would be awesome But it didn't happen

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When Christians pray and their prayers are heard by God Wouldn't God heal them in such a way that the evidence of Christians being healed more than other believers

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Would be greater by percentage than any other religion Yes, he would but that doesn't happen

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But we should see that happening in the Christian world because you pray that you're going to get well

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And it's just by chance that you get well There have been dozens of prayer studies many by Christian organizations that result in no correlation between prayers and healing

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Everyone on earth presented with the same medical condition and the same medical care

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Lives and dies equally That's a fact. There's no way around it.

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Lastly if God is all -powerful could he Do something that he is nature might not want him to do if you call it nature.

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He's all -powerful. He could do anything Could he commit suicide? Could he divide himself up into different gods?

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But I Lost it There's no way to tell exactly what his nature is based on the thousands of different Christian sects that believe in different interpretations

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Maybe God could move to an adjoining universe and leave us all together But if he did, how would we know how would we know would we like?

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All the believers will say I don't feel it anymore No, probably they'd keep on believing if the

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Christian God did exist and Christianity was the only true religion Hospitals would have a heyday on this.

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Oh, you're a Christian scientist You're gonna get healed 30 % more than anybody else because Christian scientists

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I guess of the true religion or any other pick any other sect Christians would never have to leave their faith out of the 1 ,400 members that I have half our

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Believers were believers. They were Bible studiers. They just didn't leave because they hated God They didn't hate

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God No biblical scholars were turned into atheists. There's dozens or hundreds of biblical scholars written lots of books

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Bart Ehrman John Loftus a lot of people that have Have read have read the

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Bible and turned into atheists The answers to the hardest questions would be so strong that there would be no question that Christianity was true

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There would be no fallacies. No logical contradictions Everything would be easily explained and they would be there would be very little to criticize, but that's not the case

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Christianity if true would be so strong that an eighth grader could easily defend it against the smartest non -believer and that's just not the case

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If any religion was so true that all unabashed educated atheists were joining that religion

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I would seriously have to take a look but that is not the case In fact atheism is growing now up to 20 % of the u .s

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33 % of kids of people under 30 all the churches half of the churches in northern

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Europe are now nightclubs bars and Restaurants people are leaving the church.

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Why because of the internet expands knowledge religion, especially

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Christianity can be extremely confusing on what sect is true All of them have different demands on the

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Christian and different ways to get to heaven faith good good works Whatever they have all different doctrines and believe in things that other sects would consider only an apostate would do

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Speaking in tongues not dancing whatever what would make Christianity the coolest religion the coolest religion

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God's could send a prophet ever so often down to earth when Christians would be Misinterpreting some of their text and would change the

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Bible verses so it flecked more of the modern Moral moralities Eliminate slavery for example in the

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Bible or God himself could rearrange a text and all the Bibles all at once I think that's a double.

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I think I said that before Would it be perfectly just God it would have perfectly just God tell his parents to kill their son if he is insubordinate

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No, of course not would this God kill 50 ,000 people In a nearby village just because a small group of Israelites who were returning the ark to the covenant to his rightful place

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Who looked at the ark 50 ,000 people innocent in a nearby village gone to totally innocent?

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No, a righteous God would not do that Would God endorse slavery could approve for God commits make something perfect could make something imperfect like humans

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No, if he was perfect, he couldn't Would it just God punish humans indefinitely for a finite sense no

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You're way ahead of us there. Um, you're gonna have to Yes, that's okay.

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Are you on 58? Oh, you don't have numbers there. Do you Sean? Okay Why did the scholars who were deciding on which books to be included in the

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Bible? Not include the books that were supposedly inspired by God as well

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Why would a particular God want to destroy the world again During the apocalypse and commit condemn good people all around the world

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Even those who have never heard of Christianity that have good moral lives one minute One more time one minute one minute, okay

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By believing in an all I'm just gonna go straight to the conclusion. So you can X nay the PowerPoint for me

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By believing in all powerful deity paralyzes one thinking and cripples the choices you have to make

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To escape a false reality that is self -centered and apocalyptic looking at the truth requires courage and Intellectual honesty of finding the best argument against your own

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This is the holy grail of skepticism if you're not willing to examine the arguments Then you have to admit that you're not willing to find the truth

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No one can ignore billions of other people believing differently and justify that your

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God is the only one if You question that if you question what you believe and more importantly why?

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you believe it you just might extricate yourself from the supernatural world of belief and discover the wonder of naturalistic world without ghosts demons devils magical thinking or malicious

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God Gods live well in this world. It's the only one we know for sure that exists

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At this time the other side we'll have 10 minutes to cross -examine Thank You Bruce Ready to go going first.

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I'm ready. Yeah, I'll go first Bruce you're a naturalistic materialist, correct, okay, but you agree with Krauss and Sagan that we're stardust pretty much

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Okay, pretty much. Well, where do we come from? I don't believe

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God poofed us into existence No As an atheist you're from your perspective Would you agree with Krauss and and Sagan when they say human beings are stardust we evolved naturally from material

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Yes, okay. And so there's it's a godless universe. No governance. No guidance matter in motion

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I didn't say Please try to speak into the microphone. No personal governance. No personal governance in order

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I could agree with that. Okay, so given that Naturalistic materialism human beings being stardust.

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What's wrong with eating babies? Because we have a mind we've evolved to have thoughts and we care about other people and we can

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Bruce what's wrong morally wrong with Eating babies we can put ourselves in other shoes. That's why we don't kill baby.

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Okay ready? We have evolved to accept morale over evolutionary time brism I ask you a question here over evolutionary time.

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You've had two values risen up over evolutionary time You have stardust that likes to hurt people and inflict harm and you have stardust over here that wants to do good and treat others

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Well, why are you arbitrarily choosing one value over the other as stardust question

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Jeff? I'm not that's an invalid question It's not an answerable. There are not two different things going on two values risen up Bruce There are not two values because at that particular time no one was around to have value

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Bruce today Sure, there are two values risen up one second There are two values risen up.

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And so the question is what's wrong with stardust bumping into stardust? Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with stardust bumping into you have

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Bruce to answer that question. Oh, sure Well, I might actually defer that question, but I don't see stars bumping into stars.

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What's your question? Stardust you said human beings are essentially stardust. What's Argument I think that you're you're saying we are stardust a lot more than stardust.

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Okay, Bruce. You still haven't answered the question What's wrong with eating babies? What's wrong with it is that you you actually support it because you read the

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Bible This is this is the insanity of belief that you believe something that it's okay to do because God tells you to do it

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Do you believe in and killing where in the Bible does God say to eat babies? That the reason the reason we does the reason we don't

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To kill babies. Yes, and many many verses To to skip a thousand reasons.

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There is one very simple reason why we don't eat babies And it's because we will no longer be that would be the end of humanity if we all thought it was a good idea

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I'm an atheistic perspective. What's wrong? There is no atheistic perspective you're assuming value and dignity in these human beings that you're say we ought to protect

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No, I said real fast as a Christian I can I can justify that claim of human value and dignity and babies

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But you're assuming it I'm asking you to provide a justification as to why it's wrong to eat babies from an atheistic perspective

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Okay, give me a justification. So three three things. There is no atheistic perspective being an atheist.

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Are you an atheist? Yes, there is no atheistic perspective. There's are you giving me your perspective?

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I Apologize every single time Considerate and let me answer this is my time to ask questions your time to answer

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Give the time to him. Okay, go ahead, please. I Said nothing about values

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I put it so simply as we do not eat babies because we would be no longer If we and what's wrong with that from an atheistic perspective, that's what

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I've asked you a second time now So I'll answer at this time. Okay. Okay good There is no atheistic atheistic perspective the fact that I do not believe one's claim that there is a supernatural

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God of any sort Yes does not Guide my morals in any way So so your beliefs your worldview does not guide your living world view

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Yes, the fact that I'm not convinced that any supernatural being exists has nothing to do with it Okay, we've evolved in a purposeless

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Cosmos cosmically purposeless universe and now here we have babies and you're suggesting that we should do good to these babies and not violate them

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And hurt them. Yes in a universe where there is no God no ultimate standard of justice

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I'm asking you to provide me an intelligible answer besides just preference because I don't want to or we would die

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I didn't I didn't provide that provides the preconditions necessary for intelligibility to make that claim mean something

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Your claim is that there is no God no ultimate purpose meaning government. I did not claim. There's no

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God So you're saying as an atheist you accept God's existence now. No, I'm not convinced that one exists

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That's not a claim that he does so in a universe where we used to be fish Why is it wrong to violate a baby and don't give me and this is what

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I'm not looking for. I'm looking for a justification I'm looking for a justification a justification that satisfies the preconditions of intelligibility not a mere claim

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Not what you think we should do But what do you want to justify intelligibility or do you want me to tell you why

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I don't eat babies a justification from an atheistic Perspective. Okay. Okay.

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I have a question. He just said there is no atheist Let me chime in with a question here if you don't mind I had read that Bruce That you believe that the idea of logic is really coming from the frontal lobe

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And that you don't believe that people have souls they have brains Correct. I'm not a dualist a dualist believes in a mind separate than the brain

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I believe that our mind is our brain, right and you obviously believe in the big big some sort of Big Bang That's our best explanation right now, but I'm open to new explanations if something comes along That's what skeptics do so in light of that.

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Let me ask you this question you you gave us some pretty horrible atrocities for us to Consider on this screen.

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Do you think the people who did those things were wrong in doing those things? It doesn't matter if they think they were wrong or not they did them justified by religious leaders at the time

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I'm asking if you think those things that you showed that were so horrible. Do you think they were wrong?

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Of course Do you think those people should be held accountable for the wrong things that they do? Sure, okay

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So let me ask you this then if we're just matter in motion if we're just molecules matter in motion if we're molecules flying through space

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We're not molecules if we're the end result of a Big Bang Because there was nothing there was a Big Bang and now we're sitting at the table

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How can people be held accountable for their actions any more than a piece of shrapnel can be held accountable?

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For landing where it lands when the explosion goes off I'm wondering how do you take that leap from being?

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Naturalistic to holding people accountable and stating that they are absolutely wrong for the things They do all to say one thing that we live in a social contract

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We live within a social contract The shrapnel does not make decisions we do we realize that we are self -aware the shrapnel is not that's why we don't

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Look at the shrapnel to abuse it afterwards We look at the humans that made the decisions and and fired the shot, right?

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But if the if the mind that's just mechanical if it's just something that is material

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Sure, and and we don't need to I mean, I mean, do you see the the difficulty? Difficulty there, but maybe you don't right

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I think it's kind of obvious two minutes. Yes the the reason that We do govern ourselves that we do live in the social contract that we to To just avoid all of the obviousness that we are a social species that we are tribal in nature

34:03

We we do come together. We protect each other. We want to live. We have a desire to sustain ourselves avoiding avoiding

34:14

Avoiding avoiding all of the obvious along those lines There are actual rational reasons we can use empirical data to show that it is a bad idea to run around killing each other

34:24

Because if we all think that it's okay to just run around killing each other. We no longer exist. That's sufficient

34:29

I have one question for Bruce in the closing statement of your debate. How do we know what is true? You said

34:35

I understand now through the process of looking at psychology on a very amateur level that we could be wrong

34:40

Big -time on any of our thoughts no matter what our personal experiences might be Do you believe that you could be wrong about any of your thoughts?

34:47

Of course, I do but I have a confidence level. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. That is not mentioned in your and I have one

34:53

Last question base. Could you be wrong about everything you said tonight say again? Could you be wrong about everything you said tonight? I do not believe

34:59

I am wrong That's not my question. I guess or no level. You see this is what the problem is. So you deal with absolutes, right?

35:05

There's a range of confidence that people have are you saying there are no absolutes? There is a range of Confident absolutes.

35:14

There is another word game. He's playing. I'm gonna do I have any time Christopher 30 seconds, please

35:20

There is a confidence level that he completely ignores. He's gonna say do you know that anything is true and I'm gonna say well technically, no

35:30

Confidence is true because I have confidence that it's true. I have confidence that that shots. So you have faith

35:36

Bruce Bruce you have faith It's confidence. It's not faith. Okay, there's Different definitions.

35:42

Can I answer time? I don't have faith if you define Time just so the audience understands both sides in the debate

35:52

Requested and they were given a more conversational open form of debate. So it feels like They're talking over each other a certain amount of that is allowed in this forum

36:02

And at this time will we have direct arguments by pastor Jeff Durbin? Hello It is hot in here don't start the time yet Don't start the time yet Whoo, someone control the air in here

36:28

She has the fan get her no clock's ticking. All right

36:36

Thank you so much for the privilege of speaking with you tonight in the honor Presented to us to be able to represent

36:42

Jesus Christ and his gospel In the context of a debate which will assume things that only comport

36:48

With his revelation to humanity and the biblical worldview. I would like to humbly point out the context of our debate

36:55

We are all debating while standing at the precipice of eternity The subject of tonight's discussion the existence and attributes of God has a dramatic impact not only on our present

37:08

Circumstances in our ability to provide a meaningful foundation for all that will be appealing to this evening absolute standards of ethics

37:16

Necessary unchanging and universal laws of thought the ethical responsibility to not choke each other to win tonight's or to lie and a uniform creation where the principle of induction can be assumed but We are in whether and whether or not we have peace with her and reconciled with our

37:37

God Who is the central reference point and foundation of all questions regarding truth and knowledge?

37:43

He is the necessary precondition for our debate this evening The great gift of tonight's debate is that both panels freely admit to representing a particular worldview

37:53

We're not pretending neutrality in this discussion and neither our opponents We are unashamedly committed to Jesus Christ as God come in the flesh

38:02

The one who died for the sins of his people conquered death revealed himself in conscience Creation and scripture took on flesh dwelled among us and revealed himself to us and apart from whom that this debate wouldn't even be possible nor have a coherent foundation from a biblical and Philosophical perspective neutrality is a myth from a biblical perspective

38:25

Neutrality is a myth in the context of who we are Romans chapter 1 says in verse 18 that the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men

38:35

Who by their unrighteousness? suppress the truth Think about what that's saying It says

38:40

God's revelation to us is that all of us not just Bruce and our atheist friends But all of us before God are rebels against our

38:47

Creator and all of us are because of sin suppressing the truth and unrighteousness

38:53

That's the context from a biblical perspective Jesus says you're either with me or against me.

38:58

There's no neutrality with Jesus from a philosophical perspective all of us have a particular view of reality and Epistemology how we can know we know and ethics how we should live our lives

39:08

You've seen that just a moment ago and before you this evening is a collision of worldviews Each panel has professed beliefs about God the world origins how knowledge is possible the nature of human beings

39:20

Human value and dignity and our responsibilities to one another our opponents profess to reject the existence of their

39:28

Creator they claim that we live in a non personally guided and ungoverned cosmos that our ancestors were fish

39:39

That we've evolved from highly evolved societies of bacteria That we are stardust in a universe with no just divine justice ahead of any of us

39:48

We are Fundamentally bipedal protoplasm with only sky above us.

39:55

I want to encourage you to judge Not to judge God in his existence this evening. It's futile. It's a futile pursuit to Question God's existence in his presence, by the way

40:06

But to judge the debaters Pay close attention to what each side is saying what each side is supposed to be standing on Because each side is standing on a particular worldview.

40:14

I believe that is important to ask the question is What we are saying? Consistent with what we are

40:22

Standing on let me say that again. Please humbly is what we are saying

40:28

Consistent with what we are standing on in other words is what we are doing and what is coming out of our mouths

40:35

Consistent with the underlying worldview that we profess and examining a particular person's worldview.

40:41

It's important to watch for arbitrariness Mere personal opinions or unfounded prejudicial conjecture

40:47

For example saying that we shouldn't need babies because that would be the end of the human race

40:52

So what? From an atheistic perspective where stardust you're assuming what you have not proven.

41:02

It's arbitrary and Watch for inconsistency is the person acting consistently with their platform or worldview that they say they're standing on is

41:12

One side forced to abandon their platform or worldview in an attempt to borrow truths and concepts

41:18

From the others that do not comport with their own professed view of the world

41:24

Let's start with the biblical worldview The biblical worldview fundamentally says that God who declares the end from the beginning

41:32

Who is the sovereign in the heavens above and on the earth below and does according to his will in the heavens above?

41:39

above and the earth below that God the eternal God from eternity into eternity the first alas that God Who is all -powerful?

41:48

All -knowing just and love has revealed himself in creation

41:53

Conscience and specifically in the person of his son God has spoken. We have a revelational epistemology.

42:00

We can know what we know because Fundamentally God has talked to us

42:06

Bruce was wondering a moment ago about how can people be sure that that we know what's going on in his head?

42:12

Well, the biblical claim is that God is all -powerful all -knowing. He created all of us including

42:18

Bruce and knows what he's thinking a Definition of God question four of the

42:24

Westminster shorter catechism. This is for all of my my presby broseph's Reform Baptist here to show solidarity

42:33

Question four of the Westminster Confession God is spirit is a spirit infinite eternal and unchangeable and his being wisdom power holiness justice goodness and truth our argument this evening to our esteemed opponents is that the existence of the triune

42:51

God and His attributes are the necessary precondition for intelligible experience apart from him human value and dignity is an illusion laws of logic are not necessary and Unchanging and science is rendered

43:11

Useless apart from God our argument this evening is is that apart from the triune God revealed in the scriptures?

43:17

You cannot provide a meaningful justification For claims to knowledge you cannot prove anything nor can you provide the preconditions necessary for all that we take for granted

43:27

The uniformity in nature laws of logic and ethics that is to say we are arguing

43:33

Transcendentally we are arguing to quote dr. Bonson from the impossibility of the contrary in my opening

43:40

I'd like to direct your attention to three specific points of contact To demonstrate that apart from the Christian God you cannot know or prove anything

43:48

Number one the uniformity in nature for a biblical perspective. God is all -powerful

43:53

God is sovereign. He upholds all things by the word of his power Hebrews chapter 1 specifically.

44:00

We have revelation from God Contact with God the jailer has stepped down at a time though.

44:06

We're chained to the wall. He has stepped down and touched us He has told us that he carries the universe along to its intended destination

44:16

Christians have a Meaningful warrant or justification to appeal to the principle of induction now my friends both atheist and Christian alike this evening

44:25

Please pay close attention to this because everything that we're doing tonight, including what you're appealing to right now depends upon this

44:35

Central point the principle of induction and popular parlance the uniformity in nature that the future will be like the past all inference all science all

44:48

Language is based upon Fundamentally the uniformity in nature and that future experience will be congruent with past experience

44:56

And by the way, this is not a trick Bertrand Russell One of the most famous atheists in history who wrote the book why

45:03

I'm not a Christian also wrote a book in 1812 called Or 1912 forget. Sorry Problems of philosophy he brought up the issue of induction in his book and demonstrated that you must provide a meaningful justification

45:17

For the uniformity in nature and you cannot appeal to past Experience to do so in other words.

45:26

Here's the question in the uniformity in nature How do our atheist friends who believe we live in a naturalistic materialist universe provide a meaningful justification for science and logic?

45:37

That the future will be like the past that the next five seconds will be like the past and appealing to past experience

45:45

According to Bertrand Russell one of the most famous atheists in history is Circular it does not provide a meaningful justification

45:53

Christians can provide the preconditions for intelligibility as to why we can do science and how we can do science second point laws of logic

46:05

Fundamentally in the Christian worldview, we know that God is spirit God is immaterial and unchanging

46:11

He is eternal to engage in contradiction is to engage in the nature of lying

46:17

God the scriptures say cannot lie to contradict yourself is to lie about what is true and about reality

46:26

Christians listen closely have a justification as to why we can appeal and how we can appeal to universal

46:33

Unchanging that's invariant Necessary laws of logic we have the preconditions in the worldview that can make sense of that and we have an answer for the moral

46:43

Requirement to be honest and have integrity when discussing proof or reason laws of logic

46:53

Based in the very character of God God cannot lie God's thinking is consistent and rational our thinking is to be a reflection of his thinking as his image

47:03

We are supposed to be like him God is not the author of confusion number three ethics and this was assumed a moment ago from a biblical worldview we can have human value and dignity at the bottom of our system because all people including atheists our image of God and have value and meaning

47:27

Because they reflect the infinite value and goodness of the Creator Human beings all human beings have value and dignity and worth by nature of being image of God God has spoken.

47:40

He says love your neighbor that is to say as Christians We actually have a basis to say we ought to Morally ought to love our neighbor rather than eat our neighbor from an atheistic perspective standing on their worldview

47:55

They have no justification as to why we ought to Love our neighbor rather than eat our neighbor

48:03

God is love love does no harm to its neighbor. We are image of God Jesus says all the law and the prophets are based upon love for God love for neighbor

48:13

Why do we not steal we love our neighbor and we love God? Why do we not murder because we love

48:20

God and love our neighbor love does no harm to its neighbor We are image of God the atheist claims

48:28

The Bible is contradictory well from an atheist perspective So what our ancestors were fish

48:40

Religion is based on superstition So what? Descendants of bacteria aren't obligated to worry about graduate school

48:49

Professed Christians have done evil things in history from an atheistic perspective So what?

48:57

What African apes do to each other is morally? irrelevant There is evil and suffering in the world

49:04

So what? Richard Dawkins said the universe as it exists displays. There really is no good no evil

49:12

There is only blind and pitiless indifference Only blind and pitiless indifference.

49:18

Dr. Will Provine professor of biology at Cornell University Says that there is no imminent morality.

49:24

Do you know what that means? It's an illusion He says there's no human free will we live we die and we're gone

49:31

We're absolutely gone when we die that my friends is an honest atheist, although he doesn't have to be

49:38

Because from an atheistic perspective there is no foundation to provide the necessary preconditions for integrity in Debate atheists claim.

49:48

The Bible is full of evil. We're brothers and sisters friends tonight. Are you ready? So what?

49:55

So what nothing is ultimately evil in an atheistic worldview We're just doing what stardust does in a godless universe under these conditions

50:03

I want you to please to tonight ask the question over and over and over to each side

50:10

Both the Christians and the atheists. I want you to ask this very simple question. Are you ready?

50:16

So what? When claims are made if so, what is a philosophically devastating critique of your worldview?

50:24

It is not a worldview. You should hold on to any longer in In honor of dr

50:31

Bonson, he said in his debate with Edward tabas the atheist is satisfied to ignore the need for intellectual justification explanation the need to gain

50:40

Consistency within his total beliefs and the need to demonstrate systematic cogency in his overall perspective on the world man and values in this light atheism for all its proud boast of scholarly adequacy is a kind of intellectual adolescence which

50:58

Refuses to think hard face the facts and be tough -minded Atheists live when all is said and done by blind and contradictory faith about how we know we know and what the nature of reality is

51:12

Atheism is arbitrary and irrational all the while dressing up in the costume of rationality

51:19

Atheism philosophically speaking is much closer to superstition Undisciplined reflection and wishful thinking than to science

51:29

That was my shout out to Bonson Three things I want to humbly present to you tonight

51:37

The claim is not listen closely the claim tonight is not

51:44

That atheists don't do science Don't appeal to logic and don't have an ethical system

51:51

The claim is that they cannot account or justify any of those things

51:59

Saying something Doesn't justify it. You must provide the preconditions necessary to make that claim intelligible

52:09

If you're going to claim science you have to be able to justify Meaningfully how that is possible in a godless

52:17

Universe if we live in a universe that is not governed by God and is ultimately without cosmic purpose it is devolved down to time and chance acting on matter and you do not have a

52:32

Justification or an answer for David Hume the Scottish skeptic on induction nor for Bertrand Russell Saying well, it always has been in the past is

52:45

Philosophically speaking adolescents number -two Our challenge is that God is the necessary precondition to make sense of human experience

52:54

That apart from him you cannot prove anything and that we can prove God from the existence of the contrary

53:01

I want you to think tonight if you would with me this this is for Christians and for atheists I love by the way, that's atheists.

53:08

You're my favorite, but I'd like you to do this tonight Would you test our claims?

53:16

We have already professed before you that we are standing on a particular view of the world

53:23

To come here tonight and to give us a perspective of the world and then claim that that's in fact

53:28

Not a perspective of the world is not helpful in a debate I'd like you if you would to imagine for a moment that we are standing on two stages and Underneath us is what we profess to believe about the world

53:43

Now if you would tonight I'd like you to look at what comes out of our mouths I Want you to think about what comes out of our mouths and ask this question

53:53

Besides so what I'd like you to ask the question is what's coming out of their mouth

54:00

Consistent with what they say about the world and the third thing

54:05

I'd like you to Know tonight is that there is hope in Jesus Christ Listen, this is not a mere intellectual game

54:17

This is the stuff of life This is whether or not we have a meaningful Foundation to tell people that science as is an important enterprise that science is necessary The laws of logic are universal and unchanging and they are necessary.

54:32

This is about the stuff of life This is about meaningful human experience

54:38

This is not merely an intellectual game or gymnastics And in the end, this is very much about what life is all about God is who he says he is and he is a necessary precondition for this entire debate tonight.

54:55

I Would say our atheist friends have violated their own professed beliefs about the world by showing up because of atheism were true

55:05

We wouldn't have any meaningful justification for all that. We're appealing to tonight Uniformity in nature laws of logic and absolute standards of ethics, but in the end, here's what's most important God became a man in the person of Christ Lived a righteous and sinless life died for sinners and rose from the dead

55:25

Not merely to save you for heaven one day, but to save all of you now

55:30

To reconcile you to himself now and he doesn't just reconcile you to himself and bring you to peace through the cross

55:37

He also saves your mind At this time the atheist will have 10 minutes to cross examine.

55:45

Remember that any of the three respondents can respond to a question Thank you very much

55:51

Jeff I'd like to start off with just a few questions of clarification, right? Please speak right into the microphone.

55:58

Sorry, is that better? Just a few questions of clarification Is there any experience or set of experiences that could possibly change your mind about the nature of God Any I say that again

56:12

Is there any experience or set of experiences that could possibly change your mind about the nature of God? Sure If if God had revealed himself and his word is different than I believe then

56:22

I would be different believe differently but we believe as Christians that God is the very necessary precondition

56:29

Well going forward you've already been revealed those things right so going forward from that point

56:36

Wouldn't you have to go in the past to make that change you said? Yeah, I'm not understanding your question We could say it again Okay, so this is an experience that would happen to you now or in the future so a theoretical experience of Say if you can explain

56:50

I'm not confused about you're asking So is there any theoretical experience that could change your mind?

56:55

Sure If God revealed differently than he already has I would I would believe God in other words if I had beliefs

57:03

About God whether we're in fact not true And I had seen in God's Word that this is actually what

57:09

God says I'd be corrected by that. What would that revelation look like? Well scripture God has spoken but scripture is been scripted already.

57:17

Yeah, so God has spoken in requiring new scripture Well Hebrews chapter 1 actually says an answer to your question if I go to what

57:24

God has actually said Hebrews 1 says that God has in the past spoke to the fathers through the prophets and These last days has spoken to us through his son

57:30

And so we have the supreme revelation of God in his son and we have that revelation

57:35

Recorded for us in scripture. And so what I go to for certainty is what God has revealed

57:41

Okay. Well, I'm really glad to hear this because this is a really strong point of common ground for us to say that We both are willing to take in new experiences and adjust our world worldview accordingly and so This I may just make it stand a correction there

57:57

That's that's not actually what I said, not just merely a take in experiences and adjust our worldview You have subjective experiences as an atheist that you have to appeal to and you have brain gas happening, right?

58:09

And Biochem biochemical responses that Mountain Dew Biochemical responses are firing in your brain.

58:18

And so based on those experiences you live and move in the world And so when you have experiences, it's based upon personal preference and examination and some, you know your senses

58:29

But as a Christian we surround an objective revelation. God has spoken. Okay, so that's the standard

58:36

Would the two of you concur that I think I could maybe help clarify I think there are peripherals of our faith that we could be wrong but that does therefore not follow that there are things that we cannot be certain about and I would say those

58:49

Attributes of God that we can and are certain about are the same ones that you are certain about Okay, that God is love that God is good.

58:56

And so I would say no, I cannot be wrong about those Let me my answer. I I think there's a qualification on your question if you're asking

59:06

If my understanding of Scripture is itself Canon, I would say no my understanding isn't

59:11

Canon I'm not assigning Canon is it to myself? I err in my understanding of Scripture But I think if what you're asking is can

59:19

I be corrected in my understanding of Scripture? The answer would be yes.

59:24

Okay, so your knowledge that comes from the Bible is provisional because it's subject to interpretation

59:31

Right, great Can you clarify real quick, what are your basic assumptions, what is your most basal assumptions for your worldview?

59:41

Well, they have to ask you for God. Yes. Sure. Okay, so God is he is eternal.

59:47

He is holy. He is unchanging I gave you a definition in the opening statement if you're asking once again to clarify the

59:53

Christian God is your basal assumption It's that that God exists and his word is true. Okay all right, so I Would not use the term basal assumption that's more of an atheistic term

01:00:05

I would say that God has revealed himself certainly such that we are certain of his existence Are you saying that your worldview is is anti foundational that you do not have a basal assumption?

01:00:16

No, but I'm the thing is assumption is is something that's just arbitrarily done. It's not what the Christian has

01:00:21

We don't just simply assume because it helps us in our life We're saying that we have a certain foundation by which we can know things to be true.

01:00:28

Your position is called Presuppositional is that's right presuppose or assume God right in order to get to your destination.

01:00:35

Yeah, but that's not something that we do autonomously That's something that God reveals to us. He makes us.

01:00:40

Okay, so that's not the that's not the starting point Then it sounds like our starting point is God's revelation his own revelation.

01:00:47

It is for you to buy Okay, so it's not the existence of God. It's God's revelation. So it sounds like you're starting with a

01:00:52

Bible Well, we're starting with God's internal Well, I'm saying that even if a person has never seen a man with a

01:00:58

Bible He still has that presupposition of God. Otherwise, you couldn't make sense of the reason you can make sense of the question. You're asking us

01:01:04

Okay, so it sounds like John Calvin in his first chapter at the Institute of the Christian religion addresses this issue of knowledge of God and knowledge of self and both of them basically are

01:01:13

Simultaneously, you can't have knowledge of self without knowledge of God and you can't have knowledge of God without knowledge of self

01:01:19

So that is the basic makeup of our epistemology. That's just a claim. There's no justification behind that But you could be wrong about everything

01:01:26

Bruce. Don't forget. It's actually it's actually my answer you how did How did

01:01:31

God reveal himself to you? That's actually irrelevant because I don't know how God made a cow, but I know for certain that God made a cow

01:01:37

God reveals himself many. Well, Jeff Jeff said God has revealed himself in conscience.

01:01:42

God has revealed himself and revealing his law to his creatures God has revealed himself in creation the heavens declare the glory of God You're just saying everything that you see an experience.

01:01:52

Yes, God revealing himself to you. No. No. No, I didn't say that I was actually God has revealed himself according to Romans 1.

01:01:59

He's made himself known to all of us. There's a Census to divinit on us. There's a sense of the divine and unavoidable and inescapable sense of God There is creation itself testifying to us about God There's also

01:02:10

God himself stepping into creation and walking among us in the person of Jesus Christ So there there are various ways

01:02:16

God has revealed himself To us and I think one to be to be clear you you read Romans you saw

01:02:22

Life on this planet and you therefore knew that God existed. No, there's there's

01:02:28

I think I Think I laid out a little more than that. There's more. I'm trying to yeah, I think this a question.

01:02:35

I Think the the term that most people in this room would understand is the term self -evident right

01:02:43

That the existence of God is self -evident This might be helpful to you. This might be helpful Hey, if you want to know how

01:02:49

I'm certain that God exists, uh -huh the same way you are Okay. Well, obviously I'm I'm not well

01:02:55

Well, the thing is when you're in your your quiet moment when you have your head on your pillow You want to know how I'm certain think about how you're certain that God exists

01:03:02

I know that for this debate we have to you know, put our position forward I'm asking you questions so that you can give me your perspective.

01:03:10

Do me a favor Don't tell me mine because that would be that would not make any sense I mean, I don't need to be here if but his is that he knows your perspective.

01:03:18

Yeah. Yes. Okay good So, you know my mind can I can I I know what God says about your mind?

01:03:24

So God told you about my mind, right? Okay Are you certain? Yes. How did he tell you these things through his word?

01:03:33

What did he say to you? He said that you are without excuse for your suppression of the truth. Uh -huh And how do you know that I Because you're basically calling me a liar right now.

01:03:42

No what I'm saying that I'm truth suppressor. It's a culpable suppression of the truth This is important to and then we say from God's from God's Word He tells us all of us not just you guys all of us before Christ and reconciliation with God All of us suppress the truth of God.

01:03:58

We construct very sophisticated worldviews and religions to Remove God from our knowledge.

01:04:04

It's not just you but it's a sinful suppression of truth And and so that's why that's why that suppression takes place

01:04:10

We're not saying that you are necessarily constantly aware of it and you're running out of this room here and you're going ha ha we got

01:04:16

Those guys, you know, we're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness I got you. We're saying we're saying yourself last question here because sin corrupts our reasoning faculties

01:04:25

Okay, got it So you you are aware that there are people around the world and throughout history that believe in other gods and multiple gods and very

01:04:33

Very different types of gods. Hold on idolatry is popular and there are people in this world that have no concept of God They're where their language there is no

01:04:43

God in their language They have zero concept of God and these and and there are people like me which despite what you assert

01:04:50

I do not And have not at any point in my life. I've never been a believer in God.

01:04:56

I've never been I respond I've never I haven't asked a question. Well, I've never been I've never been running. I know it is

01:05:01

Yeah, ask me questions now there are other people just like me that do not believe in God, so Please avoid just asserting that we're all lying or suppressing the truth

01:05:14

Asserting your world. Okay, can I can I can I respond the question? The question is how do you know?

01:05:20

How was it revealed to you with certainty with absolute certainty that the

01:05:25

Christian God does exist? Because apart from God you couldn't frame the question

01:05:33

That's because he's a necessary precondition for all that. You're assuming Jeff. You said one thing

01:05:38

For a minute asking a question if I can have a few seconds to answer You're evidencing dependence upon him right now because though you claim to be an atheist you assume things that do not comport with atheism

01:05:50

For instance, you're here arguing about absolute laws of logic and contradictions You're trying to get to standards of truth that exist outside of yourself.

01:05:58

You're assuming induction this entire time You've been sitting here. You've not thought you're gonna float away to the ceiling at any point.

01:06:03

You're assuming ethical values Saying something doesn't

01:06:11

Doesn't mean absolutely at this time Psy ten Bruggen Kate will begin his rebuttal arguments for 15 minutes followed by five minutes of cross -examination

01:06:36

First one was a couple years ago in 2013 And I looked at the list of speakers and I thought there is no way

01:06:42

I'm ever gonna speak at the Bonson conference You look at your list of speakers. You see I was half, right? But I do get to come out to this debate here today

01:06:50

And I'm very thankful for this church for putting it on and I just found out today that one of my main mentors in this

01:06:56

Apologetic he messaged me on Facebook that he was introduced to presuppositional apologetics by your pastor

01:07:01

Paul Vigiano. So and of course, I've been a Devotee of bonds and I'm gonna take my time for this.

01:07:07

I don't have a lot to say in Rebuttal, but about eight years ago. I Was an operating table and I had to have my appendix removed and there were complications and after that a few days later

01:07:18

They actually had a zap my heart to correct a rhythm in it and I got home from the hospital I got an email from my pastor and he didn't say oh,

01:07:25

I'm glad you're home. I hope you're doing All right. The only thing he said aren't you taking your adulation for bonds and a little bit too far?

01:07:31

That's the kind of family that I have and I have to tell you that before this debate I do have a bit of a heart condition. So it was racing.

01:07:37

So for those Christians in here, please pray for me That doesn't rear its head I Don't know what's going on But I'm just gonna it'll help me maybe even be a little bit calmer than you might have seen me in the past but I do want to Start my rebuttal

01:07:54

By saying that Jesus Christ is King Jesus Christ is King He's my

01:08:00

King He's your King He's their King See the difference between the camps tonight is not the kingship of Jesus Christ the difference between the camps is

01:08:16

That we profess it and they suppress it you see According to our worldview

01:08:23

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh He's the creator of all things and nothing is possible without him not even this debate here tonight

01:08:32

See I thank Jesus Christ for allowing this debate to take place in a place of worship no less

01:08:40

The place where tonight Our God is being blasphemed

01:08:47

And he allows that to take place See because blasphemy against God is not only taking his name in vain.

01:08:55

It's taking his word in vain and The Word of God says that everyone knows that he exists and they're without excuse for their sin against him

01:09:04

Now our atheist opponents want me to not say that they want me to give up my worldview That's what my world you says.

01:09:10

I will not depart from it. I refuse Will they depart from their world you what I say don't use logic because that's a foundational part of you

01:09:16

No, they won't allow that So Becoming a Christian is not a matter of going from unbelief in God to belief in God It's going from suppressing the truth to professing it

01:09:28

Our opponent our opponents that are suppressing the truth about the God that they know exists that everyone knows exists Not a sufficient knowledge for their salvation, but a sufficient knowledge for their condemnation

01:09:39

You see It's one thing to make that claim. It's another to prove it Well as Christians we have sufficient proof in the

01:09:47

Word of God, but tonight I'm going to further evidence that claim See according to Romans 11 36 from God through God and to God are all things

01:09:56

What do all things include? truth logic reason science morality all things

01:10:06

Our opponents here tonight have attempted to use all of them But have neglected neglected to justify their ability to do so without God pay close attention because they won't

01:10:17

They'll give you arbitrary answers But they will not give you the justification for the complaints about the

01:10:22

God that created them the God that has given them every breath The God that has allowed them to be here tonight

01:10:28

The God that has allowed them to blaspheme his name tonight See in the closing statement

01:10:33

I referenced that in my question to Bruce of a debate that he did recently How do we know what is true?

01:10:40

Bruce said I understand now through the process of looking at psychology on a very amateur level that we could be wrong big -time on any of our thoughts

01:10:47

No matter what our personal experiences might be We could be wrong about everything. So I asked him was that yes, he believes that he could be wrong about everything now

01:10:59

That's what you said. I did not expect this debate to be any different from all the other debates I've had

01:11:05

But after I saw that from Bruce I thought What's the point in a debate about truth?

01:11:12

He says he could be wrong about everything. He says we could be wrong about everything When he says that he gives up knowledge

01:11:21

He can therefore know Nothing. Now, why is that the case? See because if you ask me the speed of the road outside this church and I said to you it's 30 miles per hour

01:11:33

But I could be wrong Do I know it Not if I could be wrong.

01:11:40

I Might believe I could even be right, but I don't know it if I could be wrong He's admitted that we could that he could be wrong

01:11:47

About everything he claims to know and he wants to stand here make knowledge claims. There's one in particular he says

01:11:53

One particular here. He says that's a fact there is no way around it Does that sound like somebody who could be wrong about everything he claims to know he's borrowing from the

01:12:04

God he knows exists See we've come here to debate truth and our opponent has given up truth

01:12:14

As I said in that debate, he says he could be wrong big -time on every one of his thoughts But wait, that's not what he said

01:12:21

He said we could be wrong about every one of our thoughts. Well, there's a problem with that You see if he could be wrong about any of his thoughts

01:12:30

How could he know what we could be wrong about because he could be wrong about that and that's the absurdity of atheism

01:12:36

See, it's worse than that Bruce could be wrong about any of his thoughts Guess what? He could be wrong about his thought that we could be wrong about any of our thoughts

01:12:44

You might have to play that back but That's quite simply absurd You see when

01:12:51

I go out evangelizing I present people with an option Jesus Christ or absurdity

01:12:57

I Cannot make anyone choose either very often though people choose absurdity why because they love their sin

01:13:08

You see Bruce will say that we could be wrong about any of our thoughts and Then we'll come to a debate and argue as though he's right about his thoughts and we're wrong about ours

01:13:20

See in the newspaper article concerning this debate Bruce is quoted as saying that presuppositional apology apologetics is absurd

01:13:28

Really absurd. Well, could he be wrong about that? Yes, that's an absolute statement.

01:13:33

And you see when I asked him about an absolute statement, he shied away from he got away from it He doesn't want to go down that road because it is absurd to reject absolutes.

01:13:41

Absolutely You see not only has Bruce given up all knowledge

01:13:47

He wants to hold us to a standard of rationality Which he must borrow from the Christian worldview. What is something that's absurd?

01:13:54

Well something that deviates from an absolute standard of rationality Where does

01:14:00

Bruce get that without God here's another claim that he made atheism is a better worldview to live by a

01:14:08

Better worldview as an atheist shouldn't he just say it's a different worldview When you say one worldview is better than another you're comparing it to an absolute standard

01:14:17

Where does he get that without God? Borrowing from our worldview Sean Taylor is quoted in that same article as saying that belief in God is illogical

01:14:28

What does that assume? That there's an absolute standard of logic that our belief deviates from where did they get that absolute standard without God?

01:14:38

you see just touched on a little bit earlier, but Logic is universal Logic is not made of matter and logic does not change

01:14:46

God is universal. God is not made of matter. God does not change I'm not saying that God is logic, but God is logical and we have a worldview that makes sense of logic

01:14:55

Ask the atheists where to get universal abstract invariant laws from without God They will not give you an answer.

01:15:02

They'll dance, but they will not give you an answer Now this debate is titled the existence and after attributes of God Well, I just shared you with you one of his attributes.

01:15:12

God is logical Our opponents have accused us of being illogical Well as my brother

01:15:19

Jeff so wonderfully articulated in his opening statement So what? What's wrong with being illogical to advance bags of primordial goo?

01:15:31

You see I can tell you why it's wrong to be illogical because we're created in the image of God Ephesians 5 verse 1 we're told to be imitators of God when you are illogical

01:15:43

You're saying that God is illogical see a logical contradiction amounts to a lie When you're saying it's both the case that my car can be in the parking lot and not in the parking lot at the same

01:15:52

Time in the same way you're lying. God tells us not to lie Why can you not have logical contradictions in a worldview without God?

01:15:59

Where do you get laws that forbid contradictions in a worldview without God? My friends it's absurd.

01:16:06

They will not answer those questions. I mean they will Try and get away from them. They'll try and get around them, but they won't answer that question

01:16:14

Here's another attribute of God God is not a thief Why is stealing wrong not because it makes people mad not because of you know

01:16:23

Whatever reason that they're gonna come up with an arbitrary reason stealing is wrong because God is not a thief You're creating his image when you steal you call

01:16:30

God a thief. That's why stealing is absolutely morally wrong I can answer that question. Why is adultery wrong?

01:16:36

They might even disagree with that point but adultery is not wrong because it destroys families, which it does. It's a terrible consequence

01:16:41

It's not wrong because it destroys marriages. It's a terrible consequence. That's not why it's wrong Why is adultery absolutely morally wrong because God is perfectly faithful When you committing ma 'am, do you mind?

01:16:55

This is not a participatory thing with the audience Why is adultery wrong because God is perfectly faithful.

01:17:03

That's why it's wrong And when we commit adultery we call God an adulterer. That's why it's wrong Now people are uncomfortable with stuff like that because it holds a mirror up to their life

01:17:12

It's not wrong because of some arbitrary command of God. It's wrong because of who God is and everyone here knows that That's why they know things are on them

01:17:19

That's why you know things are wrong when you do them and you suppress that truth and the older you get the more you're gonna Suppress that God's gonna hand you over to it.

01:17:26

That's why you need to repent tonight Because God's hands people over to the suppression of the truth

01:17:31

You see I go to college campuses and I talk to young kids and I could talk with them I can have a nice philosophical argument with them

01:17:37

I could tell them but when they get older I go to the reason rally and the people in their 40s and 50s They give me the finger and I'm their best friend

01:17:44

See if somebody's walking towards a cliff who's the best friend? Not the one who talks about how nice day it is nice what you're wearing.

01:17:50

It's the one who says stop. There's a cliff And my friends there's a cliff that these people are walking towards that's why we're here

01:18:00

You see according to their worldview. Our thoughts are nothing more than brain barf Chemical reactions and they want to hold us to a standard that they simply can't justify without God No Bruce doesn't have faith

01:18:16

He doesn't have faith. He has confidence Confidence confide from the

01:18:24

Latin with faith But this man's faith is going to lead him to hell and we have to love on them tonight love on them

01:18:39

Love on them love on your atheist for two minutes tell them about the God that they know exists

01:18:47

That's why I'm a presupposition list because I'm not here to coddle people into hell with evidences No, I'm here to hold the mirror up and show them the

01:18:55

God that they know exists You see when you give truth people it doesn't matter if they mock you doesn't matter if they tell you not to talk like that Anymore, who are they coming to when they're in trouble when they have trouble in their life?

01:19:05

They're not coming to the person who's argued with him about the complexity of the eye for six hours They're coming to the person who said

01:19:11

I know that you know Our Bible says they know They know are they lying?

01:19:18

No, they're suppressing the truth in unrighteousness They lift up other beliefs and they suppress the other ones why because they love their sin just like you and I did

01:19:27

But God saved us from that. It's nice to be in a crowd where the majority is Christians for a change And I love your faces.

01:19:33

I love you not nodding of your heads Pray for them pray for them right now.

01:19:39

It's not too late. Amen At this time the other side will have five minutes for cross -examination

01:19:55

Two quick questions for sigh. First of all, you said it's absurd to be proof to be absolutely to present absolute

01:20:04

Absolutely, correct. I Sorry, I didn't even understand that question. You said that it is absurd to present absolutes.

01:20:12

Absolutely. No, it's it's absurd to deny them That's what you said. You said it's I wrote it down.

01:20:17

It is absurd to present absolutes. Absolutely Well, I believe that what you said, I believe that if I did

01:20:23

I misspoke what I meant to say was it's absurd to deny Absolutes absolutely I could have misspoken.

01:20:28

I don't think I did but we'll see do you think I believe in God? No, I don't think you believe in God.

01:20:35

I know you do Okay Believe and know or two different things, but that's correct.

01:20:41

I'm gonna ask you a question short story I got in an accident on the i5. I rolled over my truck five times in the middle of nowhere 2 a .m.

01:20:49

I was rolling over the Roof was collapsing on my head. I knew that I could die.

01:20:56

I Knew this could be it five times Do you think

01:21:01

I would think about God during that time? Don't know don't care You don't know and you don't care no

01:21:09

Why don't you say relevant to the topic of this debate? I'm asking you this is this is Q &A This is kind of informal

01:21:14

Q &A. Okay, if I did that I wouldn't be answering any of your questions because they don't have no No, I'm telling you my honest answer.

01:21:20

I don't know whether you did in an accident five years ago I'd care about your soul tonight. Oh, you said you don't care. Well, you do care

01:21:26

I don't care about five years ago when you had your accent. I care about you tonight Tonight I'm talking to a flesh -and -blood person creating the image of God I care about you

01:21:35

I have well for the record. I did not think of any God at that particular time Okay, therefore God does not exist the people who were making my truck

01:21:43

Constructed my truck in Detroit somewhere knew it good. I'm gonna is it therefore true while you ask the question. I have a question so there's a lot on this on this issue of The requirements for the for the conditions of Intelligibility but There's a few few biblical quotes

01:22:06

I'd like to run by you Romans 12 verse 2 do not conform to the patterns of this world But be transformed by the renewing of your mind 2nd

01:22:12

Corinthians 10 5 take every thought captive to obey Christ Proverbs 3 verse 5 trust in the

01:22:18

Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own understanding Or sorry, do not lean on your own understanding Aren't these statements a bit self -defeating?

01:22:25

We're supposed to utilize our understanding to read these passages that tell us not to utilize our understanding

01:22:33

You what's the question? No, no, I have an answer for you. And then Jeff can answer my answer

01:22:39

Pizza sleeps fast under the West therefore the much You're missing the point

01:22:47

Excuse me You're missing the point. What was wrong with my answer? It it misses the point as what is wrong with it.

01:22:55

So these are Verses that say don't use your reason How well

01:23:01

I can answer I'm okay I you know The thing is what I did there as I answered very illogically and he didn't accept it

01:23:08

Why not because he appeals to an absolute standard. That's what I was doing. But go ahead Jeff If let me just see if I can clarify cuz

01:23:17

I think you you're Maybe it's just you haven't studied acts of Jesus or Bible exposition

01:23:23

But when I tell my son and I give my son advice and he argues with me I don't

01:23:29

I want him to use his understanding to understand what I'm saying So when

01:23:35

I say to my son lean not on your own understanding, but trust me. I'm not telling him to not think

01:23:42

I'm telling him to take the counsel of somebody who knows better than he Paul's a lot nicer than I am

01:23:51

Yeah That's what

01:23:56

I meant that's my answers I just translated into modern logic

01:24:07

I'm a little confused at this point. There's Evolve pond scum can expect confusion.

01:24:16

Yes, so I Mean Jeff again started off tonight was saying saying something doesn't justify it.

01:24:25

Yes, right Making a claim doesn't just just it doesn't justify it. You have to provide a meaningful

01:24:31

Warrant, that's right And there there's been a lot of discussion about the infinite regress, you know, how do you know?

01:24:38

How do you know how do you know you got to get down to a foundation? Everyone has presuppositions Assumptions, whichever way you want to call it at the bottom of their epistemology their worldview how they how they think and come to knowledge

01:24:52

I I haven't seen the Justification though.

01:24:58

I've heard insults and assertions that that we Are just suppressing

01:25:03

God we know it, you know Everyone knows it which would work well for your position except for I really don't and I'm really not

01:25:11

Okay, I'm very open to it. You don't mind that we trust God's word over yours It's unbelievable the middle of my sentences continue

01:25:23

Helpful as if instead of comments for time gentlemen, I believe it's

01:25:29

Sean Taylor at this time you have 15 minutes for No, actually

01:25:37

Andrew breeding 15 minutes. Thank you everybody for Having us here tonight.

01:25:54

So hello everyone. I want to take a second to thank everyone for having us come And for coming out yourselves.

01:26:00

I know it's not an easy thing to Consider the arguments and reasons Thank you the arguments and reasons for beliefs that are closely held and dearly held

01:26:11

But all of you have my admiration for coming tonight I'd also like to acknowledge that this is indeed a debate.

01:26:18

It is a debate that has ensued for millennia and Continues to across the world even as we speak

01:26:24

Theists become atheists atheists become theists Christians become Hindus Muslim Jews Buddhists become

01:26:30

Jedi Now you're thinking I want to Brutus maybe, huh?

01:26:38

People people are arguing for all sorts of positions and moreover people are changing their minds all the time As they should be this is not a clear -cut issue.

01:26:46

It is in fact a very open question This is what makes presuppositionalism as a platform

01:26:51

So attractive it stares into the face of this reality and says no, it is not an open question

01:26:57

Yes, it is a clear -cut issue Let me explain for thousands of years belief in God has been a matter of faith

01:27:05

There may be pieces of evidence for the existence of God But never so much that we could prove it hence taking the leap of faith the rest of the way

01:27:12

Then some interesting theologians arrived on the scene and said maybe without God we could never even grasp reason

01:27:20

They went further and said no, it's more than maybe there's no other way it could be Some Christian theologians then still went further and said in fact the

01:27:29

Christian God is the only God that could do this However, I regret to inform you that despite this arguments popularity among the

01:27:37

Presbyterian Orthodoxy God is not required for humans to be able to grasp reason Don't get me wrong.

01:27:45

It's but entirely possible that God is responsible for our ability to reason

01:27:51

But it isn't necessary as our debater debaters suggest But even if God was the architect of our intellectual capacities

01:27:58

There's no reason to think that the Christian God specifically is the only one that could give us this We intend to demonstrate this on two primary fronts

01:28:06

The first is that the presuppositional understanding of logic rigidly ignores many of the alternative accounts for its nature

01:28:13

These accounts offer us completely rational explanations of logic without the need of positing such features as immateriality or absoluteness

01:28:22

These features as you will come to see as you may have already seen are critical to a successful argumentation of presuppositionalism

01:28:30

The second front is that there are numerous perhaps even an infinite number of gods which could account for the existence of our world including the satisfactions

01:28:39

Including the satisfaction for the preconditions of knowledge So let's get into the arguments then

01:28:46

So first of all, we've heard Pascal's wager come already into account tonight You know, we got it

01:28:53

We got to get people turned around so they don't go to hell so that they do go to heaven But in the face of hundreds of God beliefs that are held today

01:29:01

Which could be extended to an uncountable number of possible gods the probabilistic calculus of Pascal's wager breaks down With an infinite number of gods you divide by infinity you get zero.

01:29:13

That's that theory or Even with two gods one both who give infinite punishment and infinite

01:29:20

Reward You can't make it can't make a choice there if it's a if it's a equitable situation

01:29:29

Another argument is just a simple common -sense argument Psy and the rest of these guys claim that everyone believes in God.

01:29:36

No, they know that everyone believes in God But I honestly don't I've Studied this issue and thought about it for years

01:29:46

I'm open -minded to it. I really am but I don't So they must be wrong about at least this particular point another argument

01:29:58

Logical absolutes do not require God to exist as a debater suggest it is completely possible that logic exists on its own

01:30:06

Just in the way that God exists on his own Nothing suggests that logic would somehow implode or degrade without God sustaining it presuppositionalists assume the existence of God an

01:30:20

Assumption by definition is a proposition without positive proof without being known this initial step is the downfall of Claiming knowledge to God if you assume in God's existence, you can't know it is an assumption

01:30:37

It's taking without proof. It is not a question

01:30:44

That's come up multiple times is how could we have acquired logic and reason without God? But we could have acquired it through a process of change and development

01:30:52

After all we look at the range of life on earth and we see creatures in all different stages of developed reason from none to learning social rule following tool usage and unique problem -solving

01:31:03

One of the most interesting examples is that crows can without training use various tools in a correct sequence to collect food

01:31:11

Their ability to formulate a solution to a novel problem seems to demonstrate a simple form of reasoning

01:31:18

Logical absolutes also may in fact not be absolute They like some scientific laws may just be true in certain circumstances

01:31:28

This is why there are so many different kinds of logical systems. There's Aristotelian logics

01:31:33

Boolean logics fuzzy logics symbolic propositional predicate computability intuitionalist linear modal

01:31:41

Paraconsistent non monotonic These logical systems are often not compatible with each other

01:31:48

Hence the necessity of using them to do different kinds of work in different areas of life It's not only within logic itself that the lack of absolutism is apparent

01:31:58

There are observations in the world and accordingly there are scientific laws which appear to violate one or more of the classical laws of logic

01:32:07

For example the wave mechanical scientific sorry the wave mechanical Model of atomic orbitals tells us that electrons can simultaneously be and not be at any point around an electron cloud

01:32:18

Now if you're like me the first time I heard this it sounded gibberish, but basically Around an atom you have an electron going around and you can take a snapshot at any point of time

01:32:29

And you can't predict where that where that is gonna be. It's simultaneously nowhere and everywhere at once And this violates to at least one possibly two real laws of logic

01:32:44

Nextly logic does not necessarily exist. I Know that sounds a little bit silly, but there's

01:32:49

Sherlock Holmes exist. No. He's a fictional character Similarly logic can be a useful fictional device sometimes referred to as a convention

01:32:59

Conventions are formed thanks to their public utility like driving on the right side of the road or covering your mouth when you cough

01:33:05

You wouldn't say these things are Transcendent or immaterial or unchanging no, they're just conventions that we practice that came about over time another argument you heard me mention here a little bit earlier the

01:33:21

Bible has to be interpreted and As a result our knowledge acquired through the Bible is provisional

01:33:27

It is open to change because we can be wrong about our interpretations This is not a bad thing, but it does mean that the knowledge we acquire from the

01:33:37

Bible we have to we have to accept that it can't it's not a 100 % certain we could be wrong about those things and from that We gleam some of our some of our understanding or presuppositional us gleam some of their understanding about the attributes of God, so One one argument is

01:34:03

They claim that God has gifted us the reason the ability to reason

01:34:09

And and logic to render the world we live in intelligible But if God gave us our very reason that allows us to recognize him

01:34:19

How can we know that we can trust it? after all It is

01:34:24

His it is the operating system that we start off with saying yes We acknowledge we know it's clear or we see the

01:34:31

Bible or that we look at the transcendental argument But it is his operating system that he gave us

01:34:38

It's a rigged game Okay, so next

01:34:49

The Christian God is true because of the impossibility of the contrary is the allegation

01:34:55

Well the contrary represents all possible worldviews minus one the

01:35:00

Christian God Let's examine just one world alternative worldview then for example

01:35:07

The world is exactly the way you guys say it is Save one fact

01:35:12

God is all -knowing except he does not know Why Teflon if now that doesn't stick to anything?

01:35:18

How does it stick to the pan? What does that happen? I don't get it either How is this world impossible and if this example is not different enough then?

01:35:31

Maybe God doesn't know two facts or three we can Draw it out from there.

01:35:36

This world is perfectly possible and it invalidates the claim that the

01:35:41

That all contrary positions are impossible, and this is the crux of the

01:35:49

Transcendental argument for God All of my arguments do not have to succeed in order for presuppositionalism to be false

01:35:58

If even a single argument turned out to be sound presuppositionalism cannot stand This is not true of most other worldviews even most other

01:36:06

Christian worldviews They are far more defensible because they do not claim to know for certain that God exists.

01:36:12

They have faith You see this is the weakness of this position it claims. There's no alternative explanation.

01:36:19

That is even possible a Claim this grandiose cannot hope to sustain even a small amount of criticism

01:36:26

Presuppositionalism is a house of cards. I Get the attraction of believing in the presuppositional message

01:36:34

Naturalist worldview is complicated. It's packed so tightly often with confusing and complex information

01:36:41

How can we take it all in but that we've been paralyzed by the immensity of it all On top of this we are plagued by seemingly unanswerable questions about knowledge and about our place in the universe moral questions require dense ethical theories to make sense of Asserting asserting a certain

01:36:59

God Sorry asserting a certainty that God exists and that the

01:37:05

Bible can answer. All of these hard questions is almost irresistible But I assure you

01:37:11

God does not simplify these questions He complicates them. He posits dozens of extra assumptions that need that we need not he presents contradictions compounded by Inconsistencies or at the very least apparent contradictions as Bruce has shared many the

01:37:30

Bible even if inerrant cannot be a reliable source of knowledge due to due to Foundational problems with biblical interpretation

01:37:40

The God defended by our debaters when carefully considered cannot be rendered intelligible

01:37:49

The contradictions and inconsistencies are simply too many That's all

01:37:58

I've got. So I will Can we can we pull over the my remaining time to the questions?

01:38:05

Sure. Thank you very much This time you'll have five minutes for cross -examination

01:38:17

I have a question, you know, the it's been brought up a couple times all the other religions and of course

01:38:22

This is not an a debate between Various religions. It's a debate between atheists and and and Christians the triune

01:38:30

God but having said that There seems to be this opinion among atheists that they just believe in one less

01:38:38

God than what we believe in and It sounds clever

01:38:45

But let me ask you a question do you do you think that it's possible for a math question a difficult math question

01:38:55

To have many wrong answers when people try to calculate is that possible many wrong answer? Yes Yes Would it be reasonable then to say that basically when you're talking about math there's one right answer

01:39:12

Yes, most of the time right just basic math we're not talking about common core Well, I got four semesters of calculus so by the way

01:39:22

Bruce you look way better without your beard Less evil. I love the beard. You should have kept

01:39:28

Beards, or you got a contradiction right there. I'm gonna argue that Going back to my math question

01:39:35

Does it follow then reasonably since there are many wrong answers one right answer that that There is possibly no right answer to a math question

01:39:47

Well, that's a great question. Sorry. Well, that's a great question so my first point

01:39:53

I would like to make is that The debate tonight is also about the attributes of God which if in question open up all possible gods so they are all on the table right now in the view of soft atheism, so To answer your the next part of your question

01:40:12

It's a it's a bad analogy because mathematics represent an internal Truth within itself because you assume certain axioms and then you work through certain truths from that It doesn't it doesn't necessarily tell us things about the world

01:40:28

Right, but wouldn't wouldn't you agree that Either there is a God or there is no

01:40:34

God or that there are many false gods I mean, isn't that what we're talking about? There's there's either no

01:40:39

God one God or many gods, right? So it doesn't it doesn't follow then that because there are many gods that it makes more sense

01:40:49

That there be no God It does follow that because they all are in contradiction with each other

01:40:57

Okay, quick question just just to kind of work through these I'll do my best to go Quickly and just answer quickly.

01:41:04

Thank you You said that we use Pascal's wager when

01:41:10

When did I say it or when did you know? When did I when did we use that argument? We actually hate that argument. I think it's terrible.

01:41:16

Oh It was my impression that you used it when appealing to okay, so we didn't in fact make that saving other people

01:41:24

From hell and that is an encourage that is an encouraging way to influence Wager though, that's not in fact not

01:41:31

Pascal's wager. Okay, you made the claim. It may just be logic just exists

01:41:38

Correct. Oh, yes. So if we were to say from the Christian perspective God just exists.

01:41:44

Would you accept that as an atheist? I wouldn't accept it. No, yes But to say okay you you asked it a next question we got to go fast here my friend

01:41:54

You said logic may not be absolute Is it true

01:42:00

It's possible. Yes, so it's not possible. No, it's possible. So it is not possible possibility is not rendered by Absolutism so possibility is rendered by absolutism

01:42:12

Possibility is not rendered by it is No, it because just because you have contradictions

01:42:20

Does does not mean that you have to abide so you don't actually believe your claim I do believe my claim.

01:42:26

I've actually and I gave I gave you you mentioned I've give you plenty of evidence why that claim you mentioned

01:42:33

Quickly the laws of logic may are just conventional Yes, okay. So if society determines different laws of logic where you can contradict yourself, that would be appropriate for you

01:42:44

I'm sorry to say again if a society determines by convention that you it's perfectly okay and acceptable to Contradict yourself.

01:42:52

Would you accept that? if Logic is a convention. That's entirely possible.

01:42:58

Yeah, so it's possible for society to say Illogical things and contradictions and that's acceptable by convention

01:43:04

It's it would be relative to the community defining what the logical convention is a logic can change over time

01:43:10

Logic can change. Yes over time. Thank you. So you mentioned that these couple guys came along recently and came up with the

01:43:19

Transcendental or presuppositional school of thought can I ask you if you know when the book of Proverbs was written?

01:43:27

2 ,000 years ago. Okay. I have one question because we're almost out of time. You don't mind Jeff Can I ask you just one question?

01:43:33

What evidence would it take to convince you of the God who says you already have enough evidence?

01:43:41

Go ahead Bruce two minutes If we woke up tomorrow and there were two moons and the moon was revolving like tidally locked

01:43:49

Moon that we have now and it started revolving and on the other side. It said God in Hebrew, I think you misunderstood the question, but I imagine what would convince me that a

01:43:59

God is no No, which evidence would convince you of the God who says you already have enough evidence? What evidence could convince you of that God logically impossible?

01:44:07

I'm sorry The question enough evidence That's fine Unless we have time what evidence could convince you of the

01:44:14

God who says you already have enough evidence? I don't know what what evidence would convince you of the dragon that already told you that he exists

01:44:22

What what evidence would convince me of that? Is that your world? You're just you're you're smuggling in this assertion that God has already given us every right

01:44:30

With and I I have not I have not had a revelation from God Can I so this has come up a lot and I'll just continue at least for another 10 seconds

01:44:38

This has come up a lot and it's gonna make sure I respectfully say to you because it seems unfair Just to say yes, you do.

01:44:43

No, I don't. Yes, you do No I don't the point is is that is that you're evidencing dependence upon your creator because though you profess

01:44:51

We don't he does not exist. You are appealing to uniformity laws of logic

01:44:56

Ethical absolutes and we're saying it's a violation of your own professed view of the world. So you are evidencing dependence upon him

01:45:03

Yes, yes But you didn't justify that saying something doesn't justify you're doing it right now.

01:45:10

No, no, you're you're assuming uniformity You're assuming laws of logic ethical absolutes.

01:45:15

This does not prove God or are you ready? It's just my allowed to choke you to win the debates night Yes, you would you would be winning morally.

01:45:23

Am I morally allowed? Is that how you win debates? Real real quick. Yes, or no you win debates by force.

01:45:30

Okay, how how often and how far do you want to keep shifting the goalposts here? At this time

01:45:44

Sean Taylor will be given 10 minutes to give closing arguments and summation there will be no cross -examination

01:45:56

Thank you all I'm having a harder time of this and most of you are probably I'm just gonna not go

01:46:02

Off of anything pre -written. I hope you don't mind. I'm I'm still confused. I thought that that we were going to It's adorable

01:46:13

I thought that they were going to have a debate here but what they've done so far is said

01:46:18

I win you can't think you can't be moral and We win we don't have to show it because just you being here proves it

01:46:29

They started with saying something doesn't justify it That's right

01:46:36

We have some neutral ground there. I agree with that saying something does not justify it

01:46:42

Just saying that God exists does not prove that God exists Defining God in such a way that it answers the problems of the infinite regress

01:46:52

Which philosophy has still not answered philosophers are still dealing with the infinite regress

01:46:58

How do you know? How do you know? How do you know? How do you know? How do you know you are wearing a hat?

01:47:04

Well because I can see a hat I can feel a hat Well, how do you know that can your senses be fooled? Can you since we can keep playing this game you're gonna get to a point eventually to where well

01:47:12

That's not something I can justify. We all have presuppositions at a base level. We all have assumptions at the base level

01:47:21

Apparently we agree that that logic Exists it works. We we seem to think that logic is a is a different type of thing

01:47:30

They seem to think it is it actually has some sort of existence It doesn't it is a concept logic is a concept

01:47:40

It is just a concept just like math just like English Just like many different God concepts that you don't believe in These are concepts there's just because we can conceptualize something does not mean it therefore exists.

01:47:57

I Have a worldview My worldview has changed throughout my life sometimes drastically sometimes very gradually

01:48:06

We all have worldviews Most of us haven't really thought it and spelled it all out in epistemological terms and so forth

01:48:13

But we all have a certain worldview a way that we deal with the reality that we find ourselves in Now when we play this philosophical game of infinite regress

01:48:22

We can find we can play with the idea that maybe we're all in the matrix If you've seen that movie or a brain in a vat as I think has been said tonight

01:48:31

It could be that you're just plugged into the matrix and this is not the ultimate reality.

01:48:37

There could be another reality Well, I have no evidence That I am in the matrix

01:48:43

I Do find myself existing in this reality and I have to deal with that reality accordingly

01:48:52

Logic and reason and so far there are certain things that we can come to trust because of their continued reliability

01:49:02

Inefficiently and correctly showing us how this reality works and what is in this reality

01:49:08

We know that water goes downhill I Can say I know that water goes downhill

01:49:16

Even if I don't know about gravity or how gravity works I can say that I know

01:49:22

Water goes downhill without knowing The properties behind it or the reasons why it happens

01:49:29

Some someone else that doesn't know could say obviously it's magic or obviously God always wants water to head downhill

01:49:37

That could be an answer If they don't know about gravity That answers will suffice

01:49:45

That a God wants water to always go downhill But just because that answer suffices in explaining things sufficiently for them does not make it true

01:49:58

My worldview is open to change My worldview is open to the existence of God There's nothing in this reality that I find myself in That convinces me a

01:50:12

God is necessary or that a God exists. I am very very open

01:50:17

It's the reason I'm here tonight and continue to do these things and have open discussions I was not indoctrinated as a child myself.

01:50:24

Most atheists come from belief of some sort. I Was one of those rare few that I've just never believed.

01:50:35

I I've gone to seminary school. I've done a number of things. I've studied the Bible. I've studied the

01:50:40

Quran I've read few of the Hadith I'm interested. My worldview is incredibly open to the existence of God including

01:50:51

Whichever God it is that makes logic necessary in some way That answer gives them a foundation.

01:50:59

I get that It works the way they're saying it But it doesn't

01:51:05

Justify it. It doesn't mean it's true. It doesn't mean he exists. It's not evidence that he exists

01:51:12

Just saying it doesn't justify it. That's Jeff's words. I agree with them

01:51:20

I'm incredibly open to the idea of God the existence of God my worldview can change and All worldviews should be allowed to change if you learn

01:51:34

That something doesn't fit or something does fit Fine, take it on try it out.

01:51:40

See how it works if You think that you have it, right? Look at the other side

01:51:47

Try that out for a while just to make sure you do have it, right? Look at their arguments look at their evidence

01:51:57

Test your own Theories and ideas and worldviews of how the world works if you don't you will often find yourself into trouble

01:52:05

If you believe the wrong things if you believe that gravity does not exist or is much less

01:52:11

Powerful than it is on this planet. You may just jump off a building thinking you might be okay

01:52:20

You want to test things you want to know and believe as many true things as possible now

01:52:27

Again, I'm happy to say I know that water goes downhill Could I be wrong about that?

01:52:34

Yeah. Yeah, I suppose if I if I was plugged into the matrix In the ultimate absolute certainty sense.

01:52:42

Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about Is it when I say I know water goes downhill? Because in this reality that I have to deal with that I find myself in I know water goes downhill

01:52:51

Could you be wrong about that? Yes. Yes, we can play this game all day long It doesn't prove anything you can prove my worldview to be just buffoonish

01:53:05

Absolutely inconsistent Incorrect and and I how in the world am

01:53:11

I still alive thinking that the world wakes works the way it does You could just be baffled by that.

01:53:17

How is this guy still alive? His worldview is so wrong But in no way does that make your worldview, correct?

01:53:24

Proving someone else's worldview wrong Asserting that I know things that I don't know or believe things that I don't believe or I'm suppressing things or lying about things

01:53:32

Just asserting these things again without providing any evidence that I am Doesn't do anything to prove your own worldview, correct?

01:53:42

So I implore all of you. Did you say two? Two minutes two minutes.

01:53:49

I Implore all of you Try something else out for a while. There was a pastor recently that tried atheism for a year

01:53:56

He said I'll just try atheism for a year just to see what the world looks like through those through those eyes

01:54:04

Try it try it if you want. I'm happy to go inside their worldview and see if it works

01:54:11

Does it work? Yeah works Does it mean it's true? No, is there any evidence to support it anything to justify it

01:54:21

No Well, all right It's my worldviews working fine.

01:54:27

I I'm not Convinced I'm just not there yet. Again. My worldview is open to it though and Everyone here is worldview should be as well and that's

01:54:39

The only thing I have to say thank you At this time pastor

01:54:51

Paul Vigiano will have 10 minutes for closing and summary Good evening

01:54:59

There was a rather cynical comment on the threat of a local newspaper running a piece on this particular

01:55:05

Debate the comment was at the end of the event Everyone will go home with the exact same views they arrived with smug with the knowledge that they are right.

01:55:18

I I'm hoping against hope that major transformations will take place

01:55:23

That light of Christ will shine in the hearts of our esteemed opponents and guests and I'm not saying that in any condescending or patronizing way,

01:55:32

I Would rejoice I mean I would rejoice I'd go home. I'm Italians.

01:55:38

I'd probably go home crying that were to take place and I am firmly convinced that God is capable of such things of Softening stony hearts, but I would like to conclude this evening highlighting two things first the flawed nature of the request of my atheistic friends when they

01:55:59

Require God to do certain things to overcome their disbelief. I want to address that what they're requiring of God To overcome their disbelief and finally what we are all called to do in light of the information that we actually do have

01:56:15

First You will continually hear atheists emphasize sound thinking

01:56:22

They believe in logic. They believe in critical thinking and science

01:56:29

But they say this as if the finest thinkers in history from Augustine to Aquinas Luther Calvin Hodge Jonathan Edwards Who is generally regarded by secularists and theists alike as the finest mind to grace

01:56:43

North American soil ever as if they are not engaged in critical thinking and logic and science

01:56:51

Be that as it may couched in their professed sound thinking is the demand that God you've heard it so many times that God provide evidence and And and when one asked what kind of evidence they require they'll mention things like the splitting of the moon

01:57:12

The rearranging of the stars the elevating I've heard of the pulpit The healing of the sick they'll say this is what

01:57:20

I need to see This is what I require Numerous times

01:57:25

I've asked my atheistic friends. How would these things prove to you the existence of God?

01:57:32

How would you know these things are not merely tricks or the power of aliens or the Russians Are some other undiscovered phenomena?

01:57:44

To this the question I've heard one of our esteemed guests answer He said of course, I would have to exhaust the possibility of natural phenomena

01:57:54

But at least it would be a step in the right direction if I got up and saw two moons at least it would be But of course

01:58:00

I would have to exhaust all the possibility of natural phenomenon, but how long would that take

01:58:07

To exhaust all the potential natural reasons for a second moon I'm sure he would be on the phone with his favorite astrophysicist.

01:58:16

Why is there two moons? He'd say well our moon was pregnant as it so gave birth

01:58:25

But it would take a lifetime. It would take ten lifetimes I submit that never in this life would they draw the conclusion that this affirms the existence of God Via our own limited ability to investigate we would never get there of course

01:58:43

And I don't want to sound patronizing again or condescending if my atheistic friends truly grasped the nature of metaphysics ethics and epistemology

01:58:51

And by that I mean what is real what is right and how we know these things they would realize that the mere scientific method

01:58:58

The cold construct of logic and their own limited ability to think critically

01:59:04

Things by the way I firmly believe should be employed in this life But they will never lead them to the source or basis of the very disciplines they tout

01:59:14

Simply put the scientific method cannot lead to the truth about the scientific method

01:59:21

Let me explain Because you hear this all the time the empiricist That's the scientist is fond of saying

01:59:28

I will only believe and that was which is testable measurable observable repeatable or even more simply put

01:59:34

I only believe in what I See, but of course the very statement.

01:59:40

I only believe in what I see is an immaterial concept So the moment you say I only believe in what

01:59:46

I see you've contradicted yourself You've engaged in a self -refuting life and worldview which must be abandoned

01:59:52

I Would like to parenthetically add here that faith we hear this word faith

01:59:59

The word faith and belief in scripture are the same words The word in the noun is pieces or the verb form is pistou

02:00:06

Oh And these words do not mean as been suggested and even some English dictionaries might offer

02:00:11

Quote belief that is not based on proof or even belief against sound evidence

02:00:17

That's not what belief or faith means what a person believes at least in this sense is their starting point

02:00:25

For inquiry it is what they hold to be true a priori It is what they believe before they believe anything else and it cannot be improved

02:00:36

Empirically, it cannot be proved any other way because whatever you would use to prove it would become your new a priori

02:00:44

It would become your new presupposition You see what we believe is the means by which we evaluate other claims of metaphysics and ethics and epistemology

02:00:54

And everything else for that matter When our opponents say they believe in science, they believe in critical thinking and logic

02:01:02

They are stating their a priori convictions that they are men of faith who

02:01:09

Respectfully stated I hope have no authoritative Clear or professed basis for the faith they so vehemently espouse, but they are men of faith

02:01:20

Be that as it may we all believe in many things We do not see time and energy space mass subatomic particles love courage justice virtue

02:01:30

These are necessary realities. We all know to exist yet. We see none of them

02:01:37

Yet we know they exist even though we don't see them And I might add that the most plausible explanation for the reality

02:01:44

We do observe is the acknowledgement of an acquiescence to an eternal self -existent God from whom all things come

02:01:51

It explains everything. I know they don't like that answer, but that is the answer and it explains everything material and immaterial

02:02:00

And without him nothing can be explained As dr. Bonson Posited the proof for the existence of God is that apart from acknowledging

02:02:08

God you can't prove anything at all All this to say I'm not against marching out the evidence and throwing my bags of it on the table but then they'll just plop their evidence on the table and this will continue ad nauseam and The cynical thread comment that I read at the beginning will just prove true

02:02:26

The same will occur if seeking to engage their false understanding and criticisms of biblical ethics and their shallow accusations against a

02:02:36

Biblical contradictions of which there are none if one really studies logic and understands the literary genres of the scriptures

02:02:43

There are no contradictions Allow me to inform you Why I'm not all that concerned with empirically proving my theological convictions

02:02:55

For example, yes as an apologist I have a degree in apologetics and I went to a seminary that taught evidential apologetics and they would argue about The proof of the resurrection, but I'm not

02:03:08

I'm not all that concerned with proving that Jesus resurrected by some historical

02:03:16

Evidences, you know why because there were guards who were there and they saw the resurrected Christ and it meant nothing to them

02:03:23

What point is it if it didn't do anything for them in? Fact it can easily be argued that the two generations in Scripture who saw the greatest number of signs and wonders

02:03:33

During the time of Moses and Jesus were the most stiff -necked and hard -hearted people in the history of the redemptive account

02:03:40

They saw the most miracles and they were the most hard -hearted Jesus said it in so many words.

02:03:46

It's an evil and adulterous people who look for a sign My friends the atheist demands for evidence is a flawed request

02:03:55

But they have a legitimate desire that God would make himself known

02:04:01

But if signs wonders evidence scientific and philosophical inquiry will not suffer suffice what will

02:04:08

What is the most reasonable? In fact, the only reasonable dilemma of the ignorance on the part of the creature

02:04:14

What is the answer to that? They so dislike this answer, but it's been so many times it's reasonable and it's universal that God has revealed himself to us and Manifested the truth of his existence in us.

02:04:28

He's shown it to us Outwardly and inwardly as Romans 1 Indicates with absolute certainty.

02:04:35

It is not through evidences It is not even through the discursive reasoning of intelligent design as if God is found at the end of our calculations

02:04:42

It is self -evident it is something the creature can't not know Two minutes yet.

02:04:50

It is in our nature to push it down and that's what my friends over here That's what's happening that Greek word

02:04:57

To push down is in the present active parts It's the idea of holding it down like holding a basketball underwater.

02:05:06

It's continually pressing it down. Dr Bonson did his doctoral dissertation on self -deception that you just can't deceive yourself and the longer you do the harder it is to see clearly as A Christian and as an apologist,

02:05:20

I must say that though I have a degree in apologetics I simply view apologetics as a means to clear the smoke out of the room

02:05:28

I much prefer to bring the good news It says here preach the word my point and my final point is that in light of the information?

02:05:34

We do have God has graciously called us to embrace the redemption found in Christ a

02:05:40

Holy and righteous God cannot deny his own justice But because of the great love with which he has loved sinners he poured out the due penalty for our sins upon his son

02:05:49

That we might stand righteous before him. This is the announcement of the gospel I was observing an interesting dialogue

02:05:56

My brother sigh here was having with one of his detractors the man kept demanding indexical and dectic linguistic

02:06:02

Verification for size commitment to scripture. It was as if these things were the man's master demanding to be satisfied

02:06:08

He was seeking to convince I that if I could merely propitiate his master's demands He would forsake them and believe in the

02:06:15

Christ of Scripture But friends if one has such a tenuous relationship with that which governs their heart that they would abandon it

02:06:22

So readily is it really to be trusted in the first place? And what do these things offer in return for your worship?

02:06:28

They can't offer truth nor redemption One of the greatest minds in the first thousand years of the

02:06:34

New Covenant Church Maybe the greatest mind period was Augustine of Hippo It was with extreme intellectual and theological acumen that he uttered credo at intelligum

02:06:45

I believe in order that I might understand We have the option of believing in the weak and shifting sands of human disciplines that change like the tide are the eternal timeless words of Christ regarding himself

02:06:59

Which yields access to understanding the understanding of all things and true and eternal life time

02:07:15

Please give a hand to all of our speakers tonight No Yes, you may

02:07:36

But at this time we will open up to questions from the audience I'm gonna walk around with the microphone

02:07:43

So that we can have a reasonable discussion at the same time If you try to take it from me Jeff Durbin is going to come over and karate -chop you on the neck

02:07:57

You may ask a question to any member of any panel well to the atheistic panel with the introduction to your

02:08:05

Presentation you kept referencing different concepts of deity from different worldviews and even mentioned the different sects within Christianity Where and then

02:08:15

Throughout your introduction you kept making assumptions about if God existed then this should follow

02:08:24

Apart from what has already been presented by other worldviews Where do you get your concept of deity or God in order to make those assumptions of what

02:08:32

God ought to be or do if? He does exist Please try to restrict if he does exist.

02:08:37

Is that right? Wow I Get my assumptions from all the different religions of what some attributes he has you you're talking about the different religions you have to I Don't know what

02:08:53

I would say to that answer because there are so many different concepts There's 30 million gods in the Hindu religion. Should I believe them?

02:09:00

Should I believe the 44 different thousand sects of Christianity? I know there's not 44 ,000 beliefs

02:09:06

Obviously they believe on the canon but there's all different types of behavior that's bad and good and all the different sects

02:09:12

So the answer is I can't tell you Can anybody else? Well, I think the answer was actually in the question if I heard it correctly.

02:09:21

I mean that he got his concepts of God that he was referring to From the various religions that have these different concepts of God that he presented

02:09:30

He presented these different concepts of God that people have come up with and conceptualized and believed in and and etc and Those were the concepts that he was dealing with they've been presented to us

02:09:46

Talk to me later Yes, I'd like to ask a practical question get a little away from some theology now, but I've always wanted to ask an atheist this question

02:10:01

But I never found one that it would admit that he was and I'm glad that I finally got to do this

02:10:09

I'm available online. Thank you At my age.

02:10:14

I go to doctors quite a bit And when I look in the doctor's office,

02:10:20

I see what the human body looks like and where all the parts are placed and It all works real fine and every once in a while some part doesn't work

02:10:32

That's why you go to the doctor so you can get it fixed now I'm kind of setting the table for a question.

02:10:39

So please be patient with me now When I we had my first my wife deliver our first child

02:10:49

I went to the hospital and brought this little baby home All the parts were in the right place all the parts worked and I thought to myself

02:11:01

Who designed this? There has to be something out there now, you don't believe there's a straight to the question

02:11:10

So let me ask you this How is it that the human body is designed in such a way in an absolute way?

02:11:21

Who designed it I'm afraid the the question

02:11:27

I Can't make a lot of sense of simply because I don't think that a designer is necessary I also don't think a designer is necessary every time a beautiful snowflake is created

02:11:39

I don't think someone drew that and and then gave the plans to the to the moisture in the air as You well know and alluded to the human body does not work.

02:11:52

So well, so sometimes I shouldn't be here right now If it wasn't for modern medicine and science and logic and reason and all those things that I suppress

02:12:01

God to use Apparently Those those things we we and we understand now

02:12:07

I I was able to get my appendix taken out which would have killed me otherwise because that's a rather useless piece inside my body

02:12:15

It that's left over from just the the way that nature has developed such beings

02:12:23

There is no designer that's necessary one addition to that is it's wonderful to go through the biological textbooks and find out other species that are similar to us that have all the parts that we have and Then start going back even further and some of them don't have some of the parts and other parts and to see how actually

02:12:43

Evolution came to design where we're at right now. It's all in the the

02:12:51

I lost my train of thoughts for a moment. It's all a miracle of evolution survival of the fittest Those people who maybe had an extra part or didn't have a big enough part at that particular time in their environment faded out

02:13:02

And those survived kept on going so that is not anything to do with social Darwinism right here right now this has to do with the survival of the fittest and that's part of it study it

02:13:12

It's a fascinating experience to find out why Physically we are the way we are.

02:13:19

I Think we've come to the point where we can cut to the quick Not only was everything designed by God Who created the universe and all of the natural laws that govern it?

02:13:36

that keep the stars in the sky and the Sun rising and setting and I can answer that God And I Want to speak to the gentleman who rolled his truck or car on the highway five times and didn't think of God once I just want to remind him

02:13:56

God was thinking of him And no way sorry He wouldn't cause the accident in the first place ma 'am if he was taking care of me

02:14:06

Sorry to interrupt a A quick thing would be you stated who created the universe.

02:14:13

That's the leading question. You don't know who created it You could say what created it

02:14:20

What you wish to call it you can give it a name if you wish But for this gentleman who rolled his truck

02:14:25

God still has plans and a purpose for you look It's it's quite possible that a supernatural being

02:14:33

Kickstarted this universe it's also quite possible and and there's a

02:14:40

Small amount of evidence now that nothing was required to kickstart our universe

02:14:47

My answer is I have no idea but not having an idea does not lead me to Believe or claim that a supernatural deity of any sort did it people did that with lightning and thunder?

02:15:00

people did that with every single natural phenomenon that we've ever witnessed and Now we're down to only claiming that for the origin of life and the origin of the universe

02:15:10

Eventually those things may or may not be taken out as well as possible arguments for God before the next question

02:15:16

I have a present for For Psy Psy, would you like some? Mountain dew and some diet

02:15:23

Pepsi. No. Thank you. It's they're just fizz bottles. That's all they are Yeah, no, thanks.

02:15:29

Okay. Does anybody get that watch size debates? It's actually originally Doug Wilson's Experiment from damn you listen to us

02:15:37

Dan Barker versus Douglas Wilson. Listen to that. You'll like that. Sorry to interrupt Christopher This question is for Our atheist friends, maybe

02:15:46

Bruce our mr. Gleason. Sorry, you want to answer the other ones fine when I was five years old My father was shot and murdered up in Bakersfield, California Richard Dawkins said that there is no good.

02:15:59

There is no evil There's only blind pitiless indifference as a Christian. I came to a conclusion that it was evil

02:16:07

Because got my father was created in the image of God The man who killed my father Ernest lot lied about the nature of God by murdering and God says not to murder

02:16:16

So my question to you is was the murder of my father back on March 18th, 1996.

02:16:22

Was that absolutely objectively morally good Absolutely objectively morally evil or was it just Blind pitiless and different like Richard Dawkins the famous atheist said you're quoting

02:16:34

Dawkins from an environmental standpoint He's not talking about society. He's talking about nature is blind

02:16:41

He's not talking about modern society and both of you guys have taken it a little bit out of context. Yes, it is morally wrong to murder it's not objectively morally wrong because we do it in our penalty in our penal system and Other countries do it for much lesser crimes and they have it we haven't talked about morality at all, but I am just on the fence about objective morality because most morality is subjective depending on What culture you live in depending in the circumstances?

02:17:10

You might do one thing one way another circumstance comes up and you might do another thing another way.

02:17:16

So For there is no objective more absolute objective morality, especially one that comes from God that killed so many people in an unjust fashion

02:17:23

You don't have any problem with that Bruce you don't have any problem with God killing people still what stardust does to start

02:17:29

I do Have a problem is irrelevant It's irrelevant. You just said there is no ultimate objective morality

02:17:36

You believe that you evolve from highly evolved societies of bacteria And now you're here complaining about what

02:17:42

God did in the Old Testament like those are image of God You already gave it up Bruce. That's a category Jeff and and sigh, please.

02:17:49

I mean, I Respectfully request stop telling us what we believe I asked

02:17:57

Bruce At the beginning that he doesn't have a problem with murder Okay, if we believe from your position if you believe we're stardust, you don't have any philosophical justification

02:18:11

Not a meaning well, that's kind of an insult because you know, obviously I have a moral sense about me

02:18:16

Yes, we're all stardust, but we've grown up Through the eons to have reasoning to have a mind that doesn't exclude the

02:18:26

Theory that we're stardust. Are there people who have minds that rate people? Of course Jeff if someone tells you would you accept this as a valid morality if someone tells you that this is good or this is bad

02:18:37

Would you accept that as a valid? morality Wait explain if someone tells you what is that?

02:18:44

These things are good. And these things are bad Would you follow that morality just because I would ask just because they would ask how you come to that conclusion?

02:18:50

Okay, you would justify it good. Same with us. So do we so saying but we but that's not what you say

02:18:56

So saying you just go with what God saying we have minds that develop to reason doesn't just Jeff it's pretty simple if you were a person a soldier in the erase

02:19:08

Israeli army and you were told by your superior to go Rape that woman and then kill her children child

02:19:16

You would do it because it was by God's authority. No, you would do it.

02:19:21

You would say you would not do it, Bruce You misrepresent my worldview Not only do you not have an ultimate complaint against the man who rapes the woman and kills

02:19:29

I do not an ultimate don't tell you what I believe in our ancestors What do you mean by ultimate and you don't have any you already denied ultimate objective standards of morality?

02:19:39

You've already given that up. That doesn't mean I You're acting like that woman and her children are image of God we're gonna move

02:19:47

Please remember audience that it was previously agreed to that. These gentlemen would be able to interrogate each other

02:19:54

That's what makes it entertaining Do any of our atheist friends here tonight have a question because I can't actually tell by what you're wearing

02:20:04

One of these and one of those I'm gonna make a short statement and it'll be on you

02:20:13

They say me. Yeah. Okay. They say gay people She is a lifestyle

02:20:20

They're not born that way. They're made What happens now say 30 years from now?

02:20:27

Science can prove through some test that your child was going to be born gay or transgender

02:20:35

What are you folks gonna say then to the parents 30 years from now not now

02:20:43

What would you say that question God made it I'll answer that question. I Would say that that's not gonna happen, but I'll entertain your hypothetical

02:20:53

I would say sir, if you are born gay, you need to be born again And if I can if I can address that We it's a fallen race

02:21:09

People are born with proclivities to violence What we call natural born killers

02:21:16

If in 30 years from now, we found a gene that developed natural born killers

02:21:22

I would still think killing was wrong Because it is a fallen race and we don't determine our ethics based upon our genetics

02:21:30

There's an immaterial transcendent law that must be above our genetics so we don't reduce ethics to the physical

02:21:40

Proclivities that you and I have as people 75 % of the men I know are natural born adulterers and they need to overcome that They need to choose to do the right thing

02:21:51

Even though they've got the sin gene as we read about in the LA Times, so you don't determine ethics based upon genetics

02:21:58

Hold on Paul, did you just did you just make an equivalence between the morality of killing and Being attracted to the same sex

02:22:12

I was exaggerating to make the point okay, so what is it and other than scripture is there anything other than scripture that makes you believe a natural attraction to the same sex is

02:22:25

Immoral is wrong is causing harm Well, that's a great question Sean and the answer is yeah, there are other things there's a lot of logical

02:22:33

But here's let me just answer it. There are sociological things There are things

02:22:39

In terms of the understanding I have of a make the makeup of what produces a healthy psychological household of a mom and a dad

02:22:47

But that is not the basis of my position the basis of my position isn't a sociological argument

02:22:53

The basis of my position isn't societal convention or what I can observe

02:22:58

The basis of my conviction is a transcendent immaterial Ethic given to me from above.

02:23:05

It's a scripture. Yes Sir see me after where there is some scientific evidence of why men are gay.

02:23:12

They haven't worked out the woman and yes, there is a Test for that, but it's it's only

02:23:19

It's a probability a very low probability test My name is Pat Lawson, I appreciate this opportunity that what

02:23:25

I never thought I would have Mr. Gleason, I'd like to say that I really appreciated all the comments that you made at the beginning

02:23:33

I totally understand all those questions and where you came from been there done that But my question is are you familiar with a term which

02:23:43

I think most of you guys have studied the scriptures a Damascus Road conversion.

02:23:49

Oh, yeah, very familiar with Paul's conversion. Most people agree biblical scholars to be it was a that agree that it was a

02:23:59

Epis I'm sorry. There's so many episodes in this discussion tonight

02:24:05

It was a seizure, okay well, I I'd also like to say that most of your conversations today have been completely over my head the

02:24:15

Yes, I do and yes, I don't know you do and no, I mean it just welcome to the court I was lost but I Did get that you guys believe in God and you guys don't and good deal

02:24:28

And then you weren't listening many times the question why and and a lot of times the answer was because the scripture said this and the scripture said that and I have to say

02:24:41

That I believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ because I met him because of a personal experience

02:24:48

That was similar to what is considered the Damascus Road conversion. I physically people have

02:24:55

But but is that proof that God that Jesus exists it is to me Absolutely, because not only did

02:25:02

I see him not only did I have a conversation Not only did he teach me things that I did not learn from a logical perspective and I am a very logical person

02:25:12

By the way, I'm not on any medication and I'm not I'm not You have a question though, thank you or just a statement or a question

02:25:22

Statement is I didn't hear anyone say they know I've seen him.

02:25:27

I've met him. I've experienced him and I just wanted you to know that that is that's cuz you're in an OPC Church May I comment?

02:25:35

May I comment And just so you know, we're starting to cook up here. Yeah The comment is that I want to imagine you have a twin a twin sister that lives in Egypt that's having the exact same

02:25:49

Experience all the same teaching all the same intelligence all the same background that you have

02:25:55

But your twin is worshiping Allah and feeling his Power as well your twin with all the same chemical reaction your clone almost

02:26:07

Genetic fallacy look it up Just an answer. Here's the next question.

02:26:12

How could that be? Oh, it's way over there. Okay For the gentleman though.

02:26:18

Well as we're looking on the right, so you use a lot of logic and reason

02:26:24

I Logically, I think that there is it's very well proven that it is a logical impossibility

02:26:34

To prove a universal negative in the absolute and have you heard that before and what are your response?

02:26:40

Essentially, do you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? yes, I have heard it, but That is a is a generally a charge that is delivered to an

02:26:53

Evidential sort of position it is it is As I as far as I understand it possible to prove the impossibility of something within the internal framework

02:27:03

For example, there are mathematical proofs that demonstrate it is impossible to square the circle Sorry, no follow -ups

02:27:13

I'm sorry. I misunderstood then talk to him afterward. Oh, yeah my question was actually for Gosh, there's a strong echo on me

02:27:24

Was for the Presbyterians and there's a Baptist among you, right? Yes, I don't want to I don't want to just say like the religionists or the religious men but okay, so you guys talk about Like a suppression of the truth and use the like the basketball or the beach ball in the water analogy

02:27:44

And I know you have your basis in Romans, right? So you believe that the opposing panel believes

02:27:54

In the God of the Bible, but this does does this imply? Regeneration. No, they

02:28:00

I think the language would be they know there's a God It's Gnosko the

02:28:05

Greek word is Gnosko. They know there's a God but they don't have a saving knowledge of God They don't have a belief.

02:28:11

So it's Gnosko not pistou. Oh Would be the two words in the Greek What? The demons know there's a

02:28:19

God We literally Well, they not just monotheism.

02:28:26

They they know Of the true God, yeah Let me just add to that if our opponents did not know the

02:28:35

God of the Bible this debate tonight would be wicked Because we'd be removing their excuse.

02:28:40

We're here because they're without excuses. That's why we send missionaries So I think I'm one sec.

02:28:46

Let me finish That's why we send missionaries if the people in the deepest darkest jungles of South America did not know that God exists sending missionaries

02:28:52

We wicked we removing their excuse but people have sufficient knowledge of God for the condemnation not for their salvation

02:28:59

That's what we do stuff like this. Perhaps it is wicked It could be if you were wrong if we were wrong, but we can know for certain that we're not

02:29:09

Revelation I have a question real quick guys Chris, can I ask them a question? Absolutely if I saw if you had a revelation and you compared it with Jeff's revelation and you found that it was conflicting.

02:29:22

What would you do? Give me an example If he had a revelation, okay, let me if he had a revelation that Kansas City was gonna beat the

02:29:31

Toronto Blue Jays tomorrow I have a problem with that. Your son has to go to war or he can be a conscientious object

02:29:38

You know, the thing is as Christians we have a standard by which we can examine that the Word of God You have a conflict

02:29:48

That would be a legitimate and not to you know be mean to Anybody but that would be a legitimate question if we were charismatics

02:29:56

But we're not we you're not charismatic. No, I think No, they're entertaining us

02:30:04

Oh, thank you Bruce I think the same as are you amen, but if we were Pentecostal Let's put it that way.

02:30:10

That would be a legitimate. That would be a legitimate question, but we're solo scriptura Christians We believe in a closed canon so we don't believe in continued revelation

02:30:19

Yeah, I got to get me on that one, I'm sorry if I got one thing we're saying that's the answer that we

02:30:25

Respectfully see you guys because this something came up a couple times, right the question of if you got And it's interesting question the way it's framed because there are atheists who have

02:30:34

I mean atheism is not monolithic There are many different perspectives. There's dualism There's naturalist materialist and so to bring up the differences in opinion between Christians when there are so many different kinds of atheists

02:30:46

Yes, but our revelation isn't coming from God is we think about it and we argue Let me finish this real fast you guys and you can respond to it

02:30:54

So what you're suggesting is is you got say 20 different Christians that all go into 20 separate rooms with with with a

02:31:02

Bible each The same Bible and those 20 different Christians come out of the room all with their different interpretations of the

02:31:08

Bible Where's the variable in the Christians or the Bibles? Well, it's so your argument your argument is a good argument against trusting people

02:31:19

So because the variable is in the people and not the Bibles the standards the same.

02:31:25

I'm sorry. That doesn't answer We're not allowing the audience to have any question, okay.

02:31:31

All right, and they had their chance really hot up here I'm wearing a sweater.

02:31:37

Maybe I was telling you something. Yeah. Yeah, I was listening to Sean's closing he was said he was open and we should try different worldviews and most

02:31:48

Christians have tried the different worldview and that's why they're now Christians and I know that kind of goes both ways your atheists and But my question is to Sean that if we should try different worldviews

02:32:00

That way we can get a feel for what they're like is he open for any one of my children here or myself to be open to the child molestation worldview, or does he have a

02:32:11

And this could probably start a discussion panel. I mean, let me just define worldview before you continue coming up with other weird examples

02:32:19

Worldview that we've been discussing all night is just one's epistemology What how they come to know things what they think knowledge is and how they come to find knowledge.

02:32:30

It's not I Think I answered it Bruce Guess what in your particular over here during your presentation you actually

02:32:42

Prove the accuracy of the Bible. Oh You did that's not a good presentation when you said that atheists are growing bigger in numbers than Christians Okay, Christ predicted that that would happen

02:32:56

Before the end of the world before I second coming of Christ. Oh my world This is my audience questions

02:33:04

That proves the Bible is true right there. Oops. You need to come to the rest of the conference

02:33:11

Please sir apology a radio .com sir There's so many things that are in the

02:33:19

Bible you can take almost any world experience from the last 500 years and equate one to another so So my question is for Sean Something similar to the one the gentleman asked so he said that I can have two questions, by the way

02:33:35

So the first question is this you did say and I mean I take you for your word you said honestly you're open and that I would

02:33:43

You know be open for the possibility of a God So if that's the case, so do be open number one to attend this church say for a year maybe go through catechism

02:33:53

Yeah, like I said, I went there. I went to school to do that here No, I live in I live in San Diego.

02:33:59

Okay, I'm just not good. They're reformed But if you can so that the second question is this and no, no, no, really give me an invitation there

02:34:07

I'll go sure whichever one of these second question is this I've been reading through Plato and in the cave allegory

02:34:15

The gentlemen are chained up, right? So you did reference water and how we know that water goes downhill, right?

02:34:23

So just like the gentleman in the cave allegory they see these images on the wall and to them it's real that's sure reality

02:34:30

So for you the water going downhill, that's reality, right? Yes, so we know but in the allegory

02:34:35

There's somebody who comes to set those gentlemen free. So my question to you is In your perception of reality, how is it that you're set free from those things which are not?

02:34:46

How am I set free from? Sorry, can you give him the mic I I need a clarification

02:34:52

Yes, so the gentleman in the allegory again are chained up. All they can write is what is in front. Yes So that somebody comes to set those prisoners free in order for them to turn around and their eyes are open once they go out

02:35:03

And there's some right their worldview changed at that, right? Well, but Plato does reference There's some mentor that comes to set them free

02:35:10

So my question to you is in your worldview and in just in general How is it that you're set free to understand those things which are false?

02:35:19

The point was I don't know that I'm not I was talking about the matrix. I don't know that I'm not in the cave

02:35:25

If someone were to come and set me free and I can look from the outside and go.

02:35:31

Oh, wow, that was not The ultimate reality there is another reality on top of that.

02:35:37

I Would then have my worldview changed and I would be open to changing that worldview upon such

02:35:43

Enlightenment but at this time This is the ultimate reality or I'm in the matrix or I'm in a cave, but this is what

02:35:52

I'm dealing with Welcome to atheism Bruce I got a question for you earlier.

02:36:01

You said you had faith Right confidence. That's faith. Well in today's world

02:36:08

Confidence is a secular term. He get it from the Greek They do this all the time

02:36:13

Latin word comes from a Christian word or something. That's that's fine Latin. Thank you very much

02:36:19

I'm not a linguist. So it's confidence. I have zero religious supernatural faith.

02:36:24

I have confidence in my opinions Okay. All right Yeah, what's your question?

02:36:30

You have confidence the confidence that you have is in your just your opinions. Well, that's all we have Okay I'm gonna get to this guy over here because I'm really afraid it something's gonna happen to his arm

02:36:40

I can do this all night. If we don't extend this, you know, we can go to midnight. This is for the agnostics

02:36:48

There aren't any here sir, so you're gonna have to frame your question in a different way, that's correct So, why is it worse in your opinion to eat a zucchini than to eat a baby

02:36:59

Wow, this is I don't know why this is boy. That's so hard one. Let me think about that. Look there's there's a there's a

02:37:07

Vast number of answers to your question, and I don't know why they're not obvious Right, yeah

02:37:17

Very adorable Listen, I have two children and I could not eat them

02:37:23

No matter who told me to if you put a gun to my head, it's not gonna happen Okay, I physically cannot get myself to do that now

02:37:31

Maybe that's because a God create has created us with a specific morality that says don't eat children.

02:37:37

Maybe it's because we have been developed I Know most of you don't like evolution here

02:37:44

But this may if I'm willing to say maybe God created us and designed us with that specific morality Please allow me to say maybe we just evolved

02:37:52

To a position to where that is within our nature Just like other animals don't do that sort of thing and just like some animals do do that sort of thing under certain circumstances it but I Cannot do that for just just like if a baby was about to fall off this table, and it's not my baby

02:38:15

I can't think about well did Christ tell me what's the scripture that tells me to catch a falling baby or Do is is it right or is it wrong?

02:38:24

There's no thinking I'm going to catch that, baby That's one question yeah one second one second one second

02:38:32

That's the basic reason. I don't have a choice. I just can't do that and Then all the way to the the pitiful reason of I would rather not get arrested

02:38:41

We have laws and we have laws because we are a social species We live in communities and we have to deal with that and if we all thought that eating babies was okay

02:38:51

We wouldn't be here much longer and for most of us. We want to be here much longer So that's why we don't ask the point of clarification.

02:38:58

Are you guys pro -choice? Wow a religious and a political debate, thank you

02:39:07

Boy, you're really going off the no What it shows here is atheists are not consistent with their own claims

02:39:14

No, you guys demonstrate, but you've talked a lot listen We're not I'm asking for 60 seconds you had two minutes

02:39:20

I'll ask for 60 seconds when a question was asked over on this side of the room about Molestation or we ask questions about violence towards children

02:39:29

You engage the audience with mockery rather than justification part of what we don't

02:39:35

I don't let me just finish the thought What we need is something more than the assumption of the value of human beings

02:39:42

We get to do that as Christians, but what you need to do is demonstrate that it is in fact

02:39:48

Objectively according to your atheistic, it's not objectively Jeff. I'm gonna stop you right there Objectively evil to do such a thing to a child now

02:39:56

I've already demonstrated that you're not consistent with your claims because you're pro -choice

02:40:01

You go beyond letting a child fall off the table you advocate for it's being spliced up in the womb

02:40:08

No, no, and this is I don't know where you get that. Why why are you applauding? He's wrong

02:40:14

Jesus he's making a misstatement and why are you a part? I don't get it abortion now.

02:40:19

They don't like us One second if I can just clarify something

02:40:33

And I felt bad for I don't for brace a little bit because You know, you you looked kind of offended and insulted and it's important for us to recognize this isn't

02:40:47

The argument isn't you're a bad person and he's a good person. I agree with that We got it.

02:40:52

We gotta not go there. No, the argument isn't even You're not ethical. We're ethical the argument.

02:40:58

The question is the basis for the ethics So ethics, I know

02:41:04

I can ask that question Paul, would you like me to ask that? I just want to make sure that I feel bad if you've walked away feeling attacked

02:41:12

Personally but that you understand Do you understand what's being asked when people ask these questions about the babies and all that stuff you understand what they're asking?

02:41:20

They want a rock -solid Foundational answer as to why those types of things are absolutely wrong

02:41:27

Things that you think are absolutely wrong. We're not saying you don't think they're absolutely wrong We want to know why you think they're absolutely

02:41:33

Paul and I gave I've given now a number of reasons why why they're wrong I Didn't say it was a personal preference

02:41:44

Well, you gave the answer of like of a pragmatic. We need to continue to exist type of answer, but I don't think yeah

02:41:50

There are real reasons why we don't do it There are very real reasons why we don't do such things the question and I'll ask

02:41:56

I'll ask again I'll ask again because I asked Jeff something earlier Everyone here would agree that if one person

02:42:05

One individual tells you These are the things that you should do and these are the things that you should not do just simply following such

02:42:17

Prescriptions Would not be a good place to get your morals

02:42:23

That's not a good way to get your morals and Jeff admitted I would have to I would have to look at where they got these ideas from what what are the reasons?

02:42:33

What what in all reality in this reality that we find ourselves in an experience What's what's the result of acting in such ways?

02:42:43

Respectfully can use I think most people in this room think you have not answered the question because what we're looking for is

02:42:49

Can you state unequivocally that such a behavior is? Absolutely wrong which behavior

02:42:56

I can the behavior of generally like the things you would do to a child You know these things I don't want to say, you know

02:43:02

Yes, not pragmatically not subjectively, but absolutely and that's what everybody wants.

02:43:08

Yeah answer to all right fire away Okay, I can I can answer this so having studied ethics

02:43:17

And maybe you guys are familiar with some of these ethical theories Kantian categorical imperative virtue ethics maximizing consequentialism

02:43:25

These are all Non -evolutionary based ethics which do not posit a God as as either at any point as a fundamental piece of justifying and That we are able to that these these very brilliant philosophers have been able to establish ethical theories with that grant moral absolutes without positing

02:43:47

God Go for it, and you understand you just you've quoted. Yeah, you've given some Sure, would you like my answer

02:43:54

Paul? It's objective, okay, so so something not preference not it's uncomfortable

02:44:03

So no, I'm not going to agree to that But I'll give the best answer something that can answer the person that doesn't agree with you sure

02:44:10

There are a lot of people who like to fly planes into buildings to hurt people argue mostly based on religion

02:44:15

Jeff Well, we want it. Yeah, and you don't have a problem that I do have a problem with Here's the answer

02:44:23

Jeff. Are you ready? Yes, okay? the moral dilemma is The decision to be made if you have a moral dilemma is the one that causes lesser harm.

02:44:33

That's it that's utilitarian simple Yes, it is, but announcing it doesn't prove it justify it most people will elect

02:44:40

The lesser harm not everybody correct. Do we have prisons? There's no absolute

02:44:46

Reach the gospel to the Who gets to decide what is harmful

02:44:53

Well, that's why I agree in subjective morality because in some cultures there.

02:44:58

There is no objective reality Paul Okay, so there is no law giver giving it if you say your

02:45:05

God is giving your law to you Just pick any other religion in the world giving their law to them.

02:45:11

There is no Remember folks Bruce could be wrong about that well not about that because it's facts

02:45:19

We have the next question here gentlemen Okay Sean and I think his name was

02:45:27

Andrew yes, okay, so Finally piggybacking on this you used evolutionary process or Social contract theory as justifications for why eating babies would be wrong if our evolutionary process well

02:45:43

I don't believe in evolution, but if it had Developed so that we as humans were exactly the same except that it was that we ate our babies or That the social contract was that we do eat our babies wouldn't that be justified and for you you had just mentioned

02:45:58

Kantian ethics which also includes presuppositional ism of human dignity but and also

02:46:06

Consequential ism or utilitarianism if it maximized utility to eat our babies would it then be?

02:46:13

Obligatory for us to eat our babies, okay, so if we were evolutionarily Developed to eat our babies we wouldn't be here that would be the end of our species

02:46:26

Go to Planned Parenthood Hi guys. I don't think he answered the question there

02:46:32

I think that we're saying if it was evolutionary advantageous to do anything not just eat babies

02:46:37

But anything that we feel right now in this modern society was wrong

02:46:43

But it evolved our species it would not be wrong because that's the only way we would survive

02:46:50

When in that culture of doing something wrong no culture you agree with that sure no

02:46:55

I do not This is part of our atheists I'm sure you guys disagree on some things as well

02:47:05

Again this gets to the point This This gets to the earlier point that I had to make which

02:47:19

Me personally not being convinced that there is a supernatural deity of some sort In no way

02:47:28

Develops my worldview apart from that my my morals my intellect my everything else

02:47:35

That's just one question I'm not convinced by that Being not convinced by that doesn't do anything else for me if I was convinced that a specific

02:47:43

God existed Well, then I might start following the scriptures of that God, but not being convinced that any

02:47:49

God exists There's there's no scriptures to that so it doesn't it doesn't Develop anything else in my worldview now

02:47:56

That's why we can so obviously and easily disagree with certain things if evolutionarily we were developed

02:48:04

The question I think was to do something that we would find in modern that would not Make us go extinct and to us get to this point that we found reprehensible

02:48:17

No we would not continue doing that and We know that because there are a number of things that a number of people are

02:48:26

Naturally born as Paul mentioned earlier some certain natural -born killers. There's a number of things in our species that we are naturally

02:48:34

Developed to do that. We do not do for instance. We make clothing and we wear of them That's not something that we were evolutionarily designed to do

02:48:44

There's a number of things that we do here I mean I haven't had an opportunity to speak very much in the

02:48:49

Q &A but just very quickly If there was a group of people who evolved to believe that the planet was the most important thing and there are people like that They say that humans on the earth are maggots.

02:48:59

They're destroying this planet There is a group of people who evolved to believe that and there's also a group of people who evolved to believe that life on The planet was the most important.

02:49:07

How do you differentiate between which one evolved, right? Did the people who believe that the planet is

02:49:14

Look at the argument How do you determine to how do you determine because that itself different opinions and nothing to do with evolution?

02:49:22

Unless you so it has nothing to do with evolution Really, it's nothing if that unless you include that in your presumption.

02:49:28

No morality has nothing to do with evolution. I agree with you Thank you. Here's the next question gentlemen Hi guys do you claim to possess knowledge our knowledge and understanding different and To the gentleman that's all the way on the right -hand side on stage

02:49:43

You said he's not a good. He's not a bad guy Number one, you don't know that and if he's not good, what is he you're saying if that if this then that I Think unless you're stating that there's a continuum and if there is a continuum of answers, then you're saying there's gray area

02:50:03

So that's a three -part question It was that to me The guy on the right from the stage, so I guess so.

02:50:10

Yeah And when I said we're not saying Bruce is a bad guy. Is that what you're saying? Yeah Bruce may be a very bad guy

02:50:21

Stand back All I'm saying is when when we're making when we're having the just and I'm just kidding.

02:50:28

I'm not saying he's a bad guy What I'm saying is that's not the point we're trying to make the point isn't

02:50:34

Bruce is a good guy Bruce is a bad guy. Bruce is ethical. Bruce is not ethical The point we're trying to make is what we have not heard is the basis for ethics

02:50:44

So when I said we're not saying you're a bad guy. I wasn't Promoting him. It wasn't something he could put on his resume and it wasn't character assassination

02:50:52

It was me saying it's just not the point we're trying to make right now The point we're trying to make is there needs to be a basis for ethics

02:51:02

And I don't know the other two points. I was Back to the future year, but question for the

02:51:09

Christian side for once the problem of pain the Christian worldview has the understanding of God being

02:51:18

All -powerful loving all those things So you could be the point of view that he's just a voyeur and loves enjoying watching violence and all the

02:51:28

Eating of babies and things like that. I meant we're talking about God's attributes God's attributes and I know that I'm a

02:51:36

Christian so I'm Helping out a little bit, but I just wanted to hear that question me for pastor Paul And I'm wondering why

02:51:43

Bruce with your confidence. Why aren't you in Afghanistan in a mosque? Standing for the truth tonight that says something to the

02:51:50

Christian worldview and intellectual Christianity So it's the theodicy.

02:51:57

It's the question of God being all -powerful all good and yet they're being evil in the world is the question and One of the things that I have noticed that not only my atheist friends have a hard time grasping

02:52:09

But even a lot of Christians is the notion of primary and secondary causes and this idea that God has ordained

02:52:15

Whatsoever comes to pass to his own glory and that Simultaneously we see it for example in Genesis 50 20 where Joseph's brothers did those terrible things to him and they did terrible and Joseph assessment was you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good and I would suggest that The most the most terrible event in human history.

02:52:36

I would argue was the crucifixion of the only innocent man who ever lived Yet at the same time it it is the greatest event in human history and that for which

02:52:46

God will be praised forever and ever and ever So it was the darkest most sinful event and yet at the same time the most glorious event and here is where the

02:52:55

Christian hope lies I've been a pastor for a long time. So I've walked into a lot of rooms where sad things have happened and For us to know

02:53:07

That we will praise God for every last single moment of history that he has ordained

02:53:15

Recognizing it to be good and glorious when our eyes are fully opened is the supreme example of Christian Hope I will praise

02:53:24

God for every moment that he's ordained even the darkest moment of my life Okay, second question for the

02:53:31

Christians If God is needed to prove everything then does that follow that you need

02:53:39

God to prove God and wouldn't that violate the Wouldn't that be circular reasoning violating?

02:53:45

It doesn't follow. No, I Can I can give you a perfect scenario? Let's say

02:53:51

I made the claim that I was the strongest man in the world I mean you might have thought that as soon as I walked in here But let's say

02:53:58

I made the claim that I was the strongest man in the world and I said I'm gonna prove it and you say Okay, prove it, but don't use your strength That would be absurd all ultimate authority claims must be self -authenticating or they lose that authority

02:54:08

Not all circles are fallacious. Not all of them are vicious. Some of them are virtuous

02:54:15

Yeah, but not all circles I mean try proving logic without using logic I think it's a triangle As Cornelius van

02:54:22

Til said it's a virtuous circle It's necessary to prove anything all ultimate authority claims must be self -authenticating or they lose that authority and it forms a complete circle

02:54:31

Yes, and you believe that about reason sir that it is The foundation you go to to prove reason you do it yourself

02:54:38

The fallacy would be just the fallacy would be to think I'm saying if we came from a different perspective

02:54:43

The fallacy would be to think that Christians were the only ones doing that. Everybody does that by necessity?

02:54:49

That's the nature of an ultimate authority. Sorry. I know Sure The preconditions necessary for the intelligibility of something that can't also talked about as well

02:55:08

My questions for both sides because I heard I wasn't sure what I heard exactly tonight So I'll ask you to clarify but it you brought up the issue of axioms and geometry or math

02:55:17

So in any system Especially with a mathematical one to have any type of logical proofs

02:55:23

You first have to assume a starting point or an axiom to prove anything. Otherwise, nothing would be provable So my question for both of you guys is what is that axiom?

02:55:30

So for the for the atheists, it seems to be logic and reason so I would say how would you prove that?

02:55:37

How would you prove that logic and reason are a viable thing with without an axiom and if it's not that maybe explain what?

02:55:44

It is and for you guys Was it scripture or was it the Trinitarian God? So I thought I heard both so maybe you can clarify and uh,

02:55:51

Chris, we'll go can we go one more question after this? Three if you don't mind gentlemen three more questions after this only if I can losing people if I can schlep

02:56:01

Size book his video at that point slap it. It's free I have a couple hundred copies of my film for free that at that point we're gonna separate into sections and you can start voting people out of your section and the last person gets to ask to ask a question, okay, so the essential axioms of naturalism methodological naturalism would be the universe exists we can perceive it and Predictive models are better than non predictive models

02:56:32

Axioms, however are not proven axioms are assumed. So these are our basal assumptions Okay, I just want to kind of set this up as far as clarification goes.

02:56:43

I'm mr. Taylor you were asked Initially, why do we not eat babies and your your answer that I believe was to preserve ourselves, right?

02:56:53

I said there are a number of answers. There's an obvious so that that's one and then building off of that I believe you also said that most would choose to preserve ourselves, which

02:57:01

I think most of us would agree with All right. Yep, and then so that necessitates that some don't don't choose to preserve ourselves, right?

02:57:08

That's obvious Yeah, okay So so then that would also mean that as far as that reason some would think that it's okay to eat babies and then from that point we have a disagreement as far as Whether or not it's okay.

02:57:21

And then we also have a conflict as far as say my neighbor thinks it's okay to eat babies So not only is it a mere disagreement, but there is a part right here

02:57:28

Well, this is gonna have a necessary impact on our lives and from that point Where exactly do we we make that determine where there's a disagreement and there's a conflict that kind of presses

02:57:38

I Mean, it's a little we right. I think I understand the question and something I addressed before Ideally we can look at the arguments from both sides.

02:57:47

We can look at the evidence of A Reality if we do eat babies what's gonna happen if we do eat babies?

02:57:54

What's it going to do to people? What is what is the harm caused by this action? What what is does it does it minimize or does it maximize suffering?

02:58:02

Does it minimize or does it maximize pleasure where for whom? And we can look at the reality of the situation in most cases throughout history.

02:58:11

Whoever was in charge made the decision and That's unfortunate quick question. This is for my brothers in the

02:58:17

Lord Could you please explain the soda pop analogy and how it relates to the debate today? I'm gonna give that to sigh yeah, absolutely is

02:58:24

Doug Wilson's analogy and Basically according to the evolutionary worldview our brains are evolved meat machines on a very basic level

02:58:31

They're meat computers and our thoughts are the byproduct of the chemical reaction the electrochemical You're actually the firing of the synapses.

02:58:37

That's what our thoughts are So basically their brain fizz now Doug Wilson says if you've got a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of dr

02:58:44

Pepper and you shook them and you open them you start to fizz you'd ask which of those fizzes would be true They say neither.

02:58:51

It's just fizz now. They're fizzing atheistically. We're fizzing Theistically according to an evolution evolutionary worldview and there's a come to a debate to argue which fizz is true

02:59:01

It's absurd without God. All we are is not brain not truth or falsehood

02:59:06

It's brain barf and you know, he brought the thing here, but you wouldn't argue which fizz is true You wouldn't come to a debate between dr.

02:59:12

Pepper fizz and Mountain Dew fizz See because we do believe that there's something outside of you know

02:59:18

The fizz we believe in an absolute standard of truth ladies and gentlemen, I'm sure we could keep asking questions all night

02:59:24

But it is 10 o 'clock So we have to draw it to a close. Our time is up.