July 27, 2022 Show with Brian Borgman on “Pastoral Theology”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good.

Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity Living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the 17th day of July 2022.

I am thrilled to have as a first-time guest someone With whom I have been familiar for quite a long time. Due to a very close mutual friendship with dr. Conrad and Bayway Who I have had the honor and privilege of calling a very dear friend since 1996 When he came out to the United States for the very first time to preach At the church where I was a member at the time while still living in New York Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Merrick Long Island and that was dr. M. Bayway's very first American speaking engagement, and I had the privilege of being there.

I can recall very vividly that we had over 500 visitors over the three-week. I'm sorry the three-day conference and That does not include members of our own congregation. So that was definitely a memorable event.

We aired commercials for dr. M Bayway on a radio station for which I was employed and the phones were ringing off the hook because we included in those commercials a clip of dr. Conrad and Bayway preaching and He is certainly One of my very favorite preachers in fact, I would call him my favorite preacher alive on the planet Earth and Because of that shared friendship.

I have known of Brian Borgman founding pastor of Grace Community Church of Minden, Nevada For quite a long time, but this is the first opportunity that I have had to Interview him and I'm ecstatic over it.

He is going to be discussing pastoral theology today, which is also the theme of the 2022 Northwest Fire Regional Fellowship in Prineville, Oregon and we'll be talking about that as well. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio pastor Brian Borgman.

Thank you, Chris. Well, first of all tell our listeners about Grace Community Church of Minden, Nevada.

Well in Grace Community Church, we had three other families six 1994 and God has been Incredibly kind to us over these past 28 plus years and we're a confessional Baptist ministries out and just a Wonderful church.

Praise God for that. And if anybody wants more details on.

This fine church that has a fine reputation Across the country and dare I say even globally Grace Community Church of Minden, Nevada. The website is GraceNevada .com GraceNevada .com and God willing we will be Announcing that again towards the end of the program.

Well, I have already mentioned that you are going to be speaking along with Bruce Ray Who is my guest in August on this program. You are going to be speaking at the pastoral theology conference, which is actually the 2022 Northwest fire regional fellowship in Prineville, Oregon.

Tell us about this fellowship event.

Yeah, so, you know fellowship of independent reformed evangelicals general meetings this year Actually makes it a significant amount of time with my Polonians is sort of well. Praise God and.

For more details on this conference You can go to events entrusted word org events entrusted word org and you will find out more about the 2022 Northwest fire regional fellowship. And I also want to take this opportunity to thank Christopher Cookston of Prineville Community Church In Oregon for the generous financial support that he has provided and For being just such a dear and encouraging brother in Christ.

Well As I've already mentioned that today we're going to discuss a bit about this Theme that you will be addressing at the conference. But before we do that, we have a tradition here on iron trip and Zion radio whenever we have a first-time guest that we Asked that guest to give a summary of his or her salvation testimony including the religious atmosphere if any that the guest has been raised in and What kind of providential circumstances are sovereign Lord raised up in that guest's life that drew? him or herself To God and saved that person.

So why don't you tell us about your your salvation testimony, brother? I.

Would I would love to Chris the into a Catholic home German Catholic Catholic Church, I. Was baptized this same church? My dad was baptized in and my mom grew up a hunger. There's been just sort of a Heinz 57 78 or 79 right in there.

My mom walked into a Christian bookstore my mom being a Christian fan in there and and there were. The NIV was probably was an NIV Stack of Bibles that that caught her attention and she picked it up and this is no joke.

She picked the dietary laws in Leviticus. And The Lord actually used just an insatiate all of a sudden he started reading her Bible. Bought a Bible. Started reading it voraciously. Had met some shuns.

I mean everybody in our my dad's side of the family was gathers a day while he was there's up and down, California. And he was listening to my mom's UPS truck and came across Dr. J. Vernon McGee and through the Bible radio.

Oh, yeah.

I worked for WMCA radio in New York a Salem media affiliate and They were airing J. Vernon McGee's.

Program far after he was in glory with Christ already. This is about 1978 79 and My dad did not feel the freedom to read the scripture to my mom and my mom said why don't you go see the priest. It was not a bill, California, and my dad went to go talk to him.

I always thought it was the father right? Oh, yeah, one of my favorite authors of all time. Used a rile to help my dad and my dad went to talk to this priest and the priest said to my dad Steve the Bible is God's Word and you need to read it and So my dad felt the freedom having the priest and my dad came to faith in Christ.

And so my lawyer. Yeah, my parent my parents had gone nuts. So I'm I'm maybe 12 felt like everybody else. My mom and dad sat down with me one night and they said We want to start going to a church that reads the Bible or teaches the Bible told them that I was born and they said God gave them wisdom and grace and they said that's fine.

But what we want to do is we want you to go to church with us one week and then we'll drop you off at Mass the next. Well, it seems fair. They said you have to go to church, you know, brother I I wouldn't the message the sermon on the rich man and Lazarus from Luke 16 and God really began to Create a hunger in my heart to read the scriptures.

I'm trying to find like any and Finally one night. I'm reading my Bible because my mom gave me a Bible and I just thought if I do one more religious thing and I get I'm in chapter 5 and I read unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven and I was my mom and dad and sister and my mom could see at this time I'm 13 she comes into my bedroom with confess every, you know, because you know, the Catholic mindset is you know I got to do.

I thought maybe Confessing to my mom would be the the silver bullet and my mom sat there and she lived even Chuckled a little bit which I thought was completely inappropriate as I was buried. But you need to understand that God loves you more than we ever could amen and As I as I sat there and listened to her tell me that I really I sensed Shoulders, I began to just devour the script.

I don't know if that was the exact night that I was once I started reading the word. I never never looked back. We ended up going to a church that taught the Bible and had real Christians in it Loved us and we were in that church for a number of years and I am really thankful The Lord ended up saving my sister as well salvation.

Well, praise God now. Which is especially appropriate since our theme is pastoral theology. Tell us How when and where you knew that you had a call from God to enter into pastoral ministry.

Yeah, as I was about 14 years old my Bible every morning every night and At about deep desire could not have articulated it to you in any, you know in any way that That would reflect. You know, it's a fit.

I just knew that I wanted to serve the Lord and I Went and talked to my pastor that he knew year-old. Zealous or on doing, you know everything I could. We I mean we did all kinds of mine and neighbors.

She also she went to the same Catholic Church that we had gone to her nephew was a Southern Baptist pastor in Texas and And she put me in touch with him and This man was an in calling looked like he helped me think through What it meant to come in this now, but I if you can preach to me now.

My pastor and I. I preached my first sermon at age 15 and.

Wow, I think Spurgeon did exactly that age as well.

Well, I can guarantee this Spurgeon sermon was way better than mine.

Well, I'm sure Spurgeon sermon was way better than most pastors who have reached the age of 80.

And and what ended up happening is I I and he let me preach in the evening service about once every three months friend and I ended up Organizing youth rallies. Young people that would evangelistic sermon Seminary at that time.

Theologically I was very, you know, I'm talking, you know 1617 years old. My my theological hero at that point. I was You know, I would read a lot of Charles Finney sermon virgin and so did not have a logical speech.

Yeah, that's made evident in the fact that you loved Finney.

Yeah. Really in God's providence. Some of the colleges I was considering I think would have been disastrous for me and in God's providence, I ended up going to Biola University being a Bible major there and.

And and it was there started to get better theology obviously than what I had been getting. It you know, I had from seminary in Portland, Oregon. Decades and in fact even direct me into the area of church plan praise God.

Well, we are going to go to our first station break right now. And when we return we will enter into our discussion on pastoral theology which as I already mentioned is also the theme of the 2022 Northwest fire Regional fellowship in Prineville, Oregon at Prineville Community Church where Our mutual friend a friend of both myself and my guest Christopher Cookston is the pastor and he's also a supporter of this program and a dear brother but if you have a question for Pastor Brian Borgman.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z e n at gmail .com as Always when you're submitting questions, please give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter and I could see that if you're discussing anything under the theme of the pastorate that there will be possibly people who have personal and private questions because they may be there they may be a pastor themselves going through a Theological transformation and they're not ready to identify this publicly yet.

They may know that it will anger the fellow elders or the congregation or the denomination that they're in. Or you may be even a member of a church where you are Sensing that things that are being taught and applied and Lived on in a congregation where you are a member are not quite Matching up with what you believe the scriptures to teach and you don't want to at this point identify who you are because you don't want to Immediately become vilified wherever you are a member.

Well, we would understand that those are very valid reasons to remain anonymous and So therefore we'll grant your request should you make that request? But if it's just a general question on pastoral theology Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Brian Borgman and pastoral theology right after these messages from our sponsors.

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That's New American Standard Bibles. We thank the publishers of the NASB in Far deeper and greater ways than I have the capability to articulate in the English language. We are back now with our discussion with Brian Borgman pastor of Grace Community Church of Minden, Nevada.

We are going to be discussing pastoral theology which is also the theme of the 2022 Northwest Fire Regional Fellowship in Prineville, Oregon, in fact, you just heard pastor Christopher Cookston Prineville Community Church endorsing the New American Standard Bible along with other men and the ad for the NASB and.

I.

Am Looking forward to this discussion a very important one indeed. And in fact, let me also just say That one of your colleagues in ministry and also a mutual friend of yours and mine John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona Who is a avid listener to this program and financial supporter He wanted to extend to you his greetings in Christ and was thrilled that you are on the program today.

Yeah, I have to sadly announce that I can no longer endorse King's Church in Peoria, Arizona Because I just learned that one of their elders is a boozer. I'm just kidding folks. That's actually his name.

Andrew Boozer is one of his elders teaching elder. But I know John well enough where he would not be offended by that joke. Anyway at all, right. One of the most hilarious Men I've ever met in my life, and that's not an exaggeration.

The issue of pastoral theology. I think that in our day and age That is an area that is largely overlooked. Not necessarily in the study of it, especially when you're talking about reformed men and churches.

But sometimes even those who may study it very deeply and thoroughly and frequently Are not applying it very properly and so Tell us first of all What is a good? definition of Pastoral theology in regard to what would be the subcategories that would fall beneath that as areas that would be properly identified as Parts of good solid biblical pastoral theology.

Yeah, so that We end up coming that have been considered one of course and the other is is called theology. I don't think I don't actually don't like Practical theology because all of our theology should be practical in one way or another but pastoral theology is Basically theology the practical theology of biblical truth to the life of the to the life of though when I think oral theology I think of someone who is skilled Not only in preaching but in just bringing the Word of God to bear on the life of the church the the ministry things like Homiletics, you know others.

It's a pretty broad now. We already have an anonymous listener.

Who says Greetings brethren. I happen to be a fellow reformed Christian and I know that those who are reformed Have a trademark where we are tenaciously clinging to objective truths rather than Subjective.

However, the whole concept of a calling into the ministry at sometimes Puzzles me because it seems to be the only thing where there is a relative connection to Subjective truth that is a person is receiving in his mind and heart What he believes is a call from God to enter into the ministry.

Now, I know that the Bible clearly outlines the qualifications and requirements that Must be fulfilled in a candidate for ministry. But at the same time there seems to be something that could almost be categorized as charismatic in the way that a person Personally applies what he believes a call into the ministry is.

Can you please explain where I may be off on this?

So that actually is and I would let me just make a number of observations that. But the other is much that means work. I think Dabney ends up, you know, you kick off these. These qualifications you could go into the ministry.

I think that that Dabney's approach brought men into the ministry that should not have been. But then if you look at Spurgeon of mine Spurgeon is almost so mystical that that he may have precluded men from the ministry who should have been there, but didn't have necessarily a.

Mystical is no doubt about a sunny. It seems like you really have the gift of gab and then you go. Oh, well, the church has confirmed it. I'm talking about actually the elders of the church. Recognizing that this man has gifts this man has abilities this man is morally qualified and so both.

Amen, and in fact, I can remember especially when I was a.

Young Christian. There were members of my family I was raised Roman Catholic just as you were and There were members of my family Who were very impressed with my biblical literacy Compared to them because they weren't students of the scriptures at all as most Roman Catholics are not and I can remember Hearing on numerous occasions from my mom and my sister that I should enter into the ministry and I always responded Because I know what that entails.

I have no interest in entering into the ministry because because I Know that I don't have the calling because it's more than just public speaking. You really have to understand the weight and the severity and the awesomeness of that responsibility because you are watching over the souls of men women and children and Not that any human is Responsible for the eternal destiny of another human at the same time.

There is an enormous weight to that is connected to The pastoral ministry and and of course I would equate that with the eldership That should not be taken lightly by Anyone who thinks that they have a calling.

I'm sure that there are many people who believe they have the calling wrongly just because they perhaps are even brilliant and their ability to exegete the scriptures and their gift for scripture memory and They may be really Compelling orators, but but those things by themselves do not make them qualified to be a shepherd.

Am I right?

Yeah, absolutely, right. When I was a very yeah Dad one time said to him that is that now if you know, the guy can stand.

Yeah, a man that has no oratorical gifts at all would possibly however Be qualified for a ruling elder position where he wasn't preaching, of course. Teach the ability to teach is one of the qualifications, but that doesn't necessarily involve.

A.

Enormous gifts for oratory. I mean obviously you have to be. I agree with that a hundred percent. I think that's right.

Well, we are actually going to our midway break already. This is the longer break in the middle of the show. So please use this time wisely please write down as much of the average the the contact information as You possibly can provided by as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully Respond to our advertisers.

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