March 7, 2016 show with Dr. Ron Gleason on “The Death Penalty on Trial”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

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Now, here's our host.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

Who are listening via live streaming?

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Monday on this seventh day of March

2016.

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome back to the iron sharpens iron program

somebody who has quickly Become a favorite guest of mine.

Dr. Ron Gleeson.

We just recently had in fact last week Dr. Gleeson on the program to

discuss God and guns.

The.

Christians right and duty to defend self and family and Today we

have him back on the program to discuss the death penalty on trial Which is actually a

book that he has written published by Nord Skog publishing and

the full title is the death penalty on trial taking a life for a life taken and

It is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Ron Gleeson.

Thank you.

And for our listeners who missed the last broadcast.

Dr. Gleeson is pastor of Grace Presbyterian Church.

Which is a PCA Church or a congregation within the Presbyterian Church in America?

And that is a conservative Historically a reformed and theologically

Calvinistic Denomination when people hear the word

Presbyterian in this day and age Unfortunately, depending upon where you live in this country or in the

world for that matter You may immediately be thinking of some very liberal mainline and even

dare.

I say apostate church.

But that is certainly not the case With the PCA and with Grace Presbyterian Church and briefly

let our listeners know even though you've done this before but for our new time listeners Let our listeners know something about

Grace Presbyterian Church.

And once again Greet our co -host again today pastor or should I

say I keep saying pastor reverend Buzz Taylor who is not currently pastoring.

I don't want to give any reason for Fury and anger from

your congregation by calling you pastor Is a member of a

PCA congregation Reverend Buzz Taylor, but he has in the past been a pastor And a number of different churches that

ran him out of town on the rail.

I'm intimately associated with the left foot of fellowship.

If you could greet one another buzz and dr. Gleason, well, dr. Gleason sure is good to be on with you

again.

That's true, too.

Yes.

Well, you know, I gotta get handed to Chris.

He Requires that even his designated driver be ordained.

So that's good.

Either that or he has the gift of discouragement.

Well, this is a very important book another book worthy of our attention.

Especially perhaps during an election season when we are

watching the Republican and Democratic primaries on the

television with various reactions from Across the board

of those who are Leftists to all the way over to the other extreme of those

on the right people.

Watching with bated breath many of us disappointed frustrated angry.

Some of us have even given up and do not plan to vote.

If.

There are certain people elected Or should I say chosen to represent

the Republican Party in The primaries or when the primaries are completed, but

the death penalty is obviously something that not only divides Liberals from

conservatives or Democrats from Republicans because you actually have People on

both sides that you may have Democrats who were in favor of the death penalty and Republicans who are not.

So it's not even that easily determined.

But you do even have some disagreement Amongst those who profess to be Christians

and even a evangelical Christians.

I'm assuming that because of the heated debate Over the death penalty that has

existed For quite a long time in this country that

that is one of the reasons for the Genesis of this book, but if you could explain why you in fact, he

wrote it.

Well

that

my

desire

to

engage

those

money.

Give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Regarding the death penalty for dr. Ron Gleason our email address is Chris Arnzen at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please include at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA and.

Please.

Unless it's involving a personal or private matter.

Perhaps you have a loved one who is on death row or something and you just don't care to identify

yourself.

You may remain anonymous, but if it's not involving a private matter, please at least give us your first name city and state and

country of residence and.

Before I move forward with the discussion.

I just wanted to announce the very wonderful news to our listeners

that our topic of discussion last week on gun control

has led to what looks like the publishing of Manuscript

of yours on that topic by one of the sponsors of iron sharpens iron solid brown Christian books.

Indeed throws of

Holly

ring

wall and

fast

waller.

I'd like to let our listeners know to keep your eye open and keep revisiting Solid -ground

-books .com.

That's the website for solid ground Christian books solid -ground books .com for

updates on that book being released in print and.

Now going back to our topic at hand the death penalty it seems that a

lot of the debate stems from.

How much it is?

Rightly.

To be brought forward from the Old Covenant into the new or from

the days before the earthly ministry and death and resurrection of Christ.

To our current day in the 21st century.

Because most people would recognize and admit That the death penalty was

something Established in God's law in the Old Testament, but there seems to be a difference

of opinion on whether or not that is a law that would be

Perpetual through our modern day.

And if you could comment on that, right?

I think that is

it's a

great

question.

And you

love

me.

There's

more

than

sufficient

law

in

my view

is I

Take older covenant

is one

book.

The

Lord

has

called

us to

call these the

Covenant.

Then we

will

be able

to how the

older

however having said that let me qualify one more thing because

there are Obviously and

that is

Pat by the

Lord Jesus.

So

there but

there's

a

there's

a case

in point

I don't first relationship and by way of kind of a sidebar.

Please let it's not an affair.

That's a euphemism.

But in that case

if the witnesses were brought forward and the case were established

They were put to death.

Now in

the New

Testament, he said

I'll be

at the state vaguely a Statement that

Martin Luther have the death

penalty then the

death penalty and people looked at him with a kind of a quizzical look.

Like

well, but

so there

are some

changes.

But there are a lot of things one of the texts

that I believe is foundational for all of this in the Old Testament.

This is nine

and pronouncement about what is

go on there and it goes out it reads pretty much like this and For your life

blood I will require a reckoning required and

his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

Whoever sheds the blood of man and.

One of the Things that one of the texts in the New Covenant that I'm

assuming you would believe is a primary text Proving that that

Old Testament mandate still stands is in Romans 13 1 through 7.

Yep.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except from God and those that exist

have been instituted by.

Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed and those who resist will incur

judgment.

Rulers are not a terror for good conduct, but too bad.

But you have no fear of the one who is an authority.

Then do what is good and you will receive his approval for the for the one.

Let's see.

I missed my place here.

It was.

Would you have no fear of the one in authority then do what is good and you will receive his approval for he is God's

Servant for your good, but if you do wrong be afraid.

For he does not bear the sword in vain for he is the servant of God an Avenger Who

carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer?

Therefore one must be in subjection not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscious

or because of this you also pay taxes for the authorities are ministers of God attending to This

very thing pay to all what is owed them.

Taxes to whom taxes are owed.

Revenue to whom revenue is owed.

Respect to whom respect is owed.

And honor to whom honor is owed.

So I'm assuming that that would be something that would confirm in the New Testament from the very

Pen of the Apostle Paul that that law and those laws in the Old Testament

regarding The death penalty at least for certain crimes are not abrogated.

Precisely, and that's a great word

and

I

would

add to

that one

more

text with

approvals on

how they

could come to understand

why the The death penalty is our time and I

would add to that That in the older covenant there was a

egregious sin

that Wanted that death penalty

was being imposed

The

Lord

with.

Now

there are

them

applaud.

I

think

most

biblical

life

and

worldview.

For them.

Founded in Scripture.

Because we're going to come against a society that is not Christian.

And we need to bring forth our presuppositions that we draw from Scripture.

Before we go to a break I'm going to ask you a question and then you'll have time to ponder it

during the break and answer when we return.

But my question is for you.

We seem to both be in agreement and it is Fairly clear from the words of the Apostle Paul

that the death penalty is Something that is

appropriately Improperly carried through to the New Covenant to this very day.

But the question I have for you is.

Under what terms or for what crimes Would the death penalty be

applicable today in your opinion?

And is there only one answer to that?

Do you believe that the Word of God gives liberty to varying cultures and

Nations who have varying forms of government.

To apply the death penalty in different ways as long as it wasn't something that was a clear

violation of a biblical command or mandate.

Perhaps you could think about that when we go to a break right now and.

And if you'd like to join us on the air as well with your own question, our email is Chris Arnzen at

gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And Please as I said before give us your first name your city and state in your country of

residence.

If you live outside of the good old USA, we'll be right back with dr Ron Gleason

and the death penalty on trial right after these messages.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for my now seeking the approval of man or of God.

Where am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things?

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles priority.

It must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and

Vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 528 5750.

That's 508 528 5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past

sermons Worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org.

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Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is dr Ron Gleason

and we are discussing his book the death penalty on trial Taking a life for a life taken.

If you have questions of your own Our email address is Chris Arns and at gmail .com.

Chris Arns and at gmail .com.

And Basically before the Before the

break I was asking you In light of the fact that we both seem to be in agreement that the death

penalty Is something carried over from the old covenant law?

Through the New Covenant and is applicable today even in the 21st century.

And my question was but Are there

is there a difference from the old to the new?

Regarding what crimes where one may rightly apply that very severe

And final penalty if you will.

And if there is also liberty to answer that question differently amongst Various

nations and various governments as long as a clear Mandate of Scripture is not violated.

Right a great

question

that

would

that was

punishable by death in the New Testament does

how I say that people

will think I'm With

the church hopping that goes on today.

Yes, for

example,

this

is not of adultery.

They don't believe in

it and these people now go to that other church and they begin

to take every time they take The bread and

the wine the

church poultry

as a

crime put

on and

really way down the road.

But

if

eventually

if that

is

created and

there is

a very true Psychological

sense and a number of the

complaint murders.

They are truly and really Striking

whole idea of man having this Special place

of life in ship

God now the other part

of your question, which I

thought was would call

today contextual one

Country to another country and their laws now, obviously each country will probably as a sovereign

nation Will make its own laws.

But I do believe at the

same time right across the board and apply to any and all

whether they are saved.

We're not saying let me explain what I mean by that in the Old Testament we're told

of God's destruction of Sodom and

God judge Sodom and Gomorrah by a Different standard of righteousness than he did for his

people and the short answer of course is no he didn't there's one standard of one

tradition in the Presbyterian Church in America the

Westminster confession of we

confess whether they are believers.

Or non -believers, this is a universal ethic.

This is God's Universal gift

not only telling us about his nature in his character.

But how he expects New

Testament

Paul writes

to Greeks the

churches in and it's in first Corinthians in Particular

he holds can

the

Dutch

to his

entire

creation

but

about these into the

world it used to

be that the church was the conscience of the world and That if the world was

without going crazy, you know, this is what time this

is what God wants Mary

God wants obedience to look like but lately I would say we have

Generations we have lost.

We have lost those that the church no longer stands up as church the church

Looks you have

that phenomenon.

You're back into the Old Testament in.

I'll give you a couple examples of Specifics of what I mean.

If a nation believes in the death penalty It will most certainly have

first and foremost in mind the death penalty for murderers, right?

But would it be inappropriate for a nation even our own? To want to adopt

that as a penalty the death or capital punishment as a penalty for

pedophilia.

Are and that actually at this nation has in the past used the death penalty

towards traitors Against this nation who were spies

For the communists and so on.

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg immediately come to mind Traitors

such as the Execution of private Slovak if you remember.

But if you could Are these appropriate ways for a government.

Do they have there's a government any government have the liberty in God's eyes To use the death penalty for

things such as that.

Yes.

I would answer that one

death penalties for

things

such as

that as

long

as they

are that you could derive your Principles from the Word of God that that would be totally

now.

What about the manner in which?

The death penalty is brought about a you and I I believe judging from what you

have said would vehemently oppose the execution of Someone

for theological heresy, right?

And we would look at that as a dark Spot or a blight upon the

record of our mutual hero John Calvin because he consented to

the governing authorities in Geneva.

To executing the heretic Miguel Cervito Michael Cervitas who was

opposing the Trinity.

But.

Calvin also Begged or pleaded with the

authorities not to burn him alive and was pleading with them for

a more humane Method of execution which fell upon deaf ears

and he nonetheless Cervitas or Cervito was Burned at the

stake.

Now.

Do you think that there are any biblical prohibitions to a means by which any given?

Governing authorities choose to put someone to death.

You're referring to stoning to death exactly.

I had my microphone on mute.

So

maybe

not even

the second most pleasant

way to be but God by

premeditated murder With

such

an

egregious

sensual

various name

the

word

as

I did

my

research

for

discomfort.

Did not register very highly.

Yes, and of course the Church of Rome would probably be the the experts on being

inventors of evil.

When it comes to the methodology of torture and death that they devised over the centuries.

Yes.

And.

One of the things I do want to get to especially is for the last hour.

I want to get to eight secular objections to the death

penalty and five Christian Objections to the death penalty, but

before we do that There are certain things that I think.

Give me Reason for pause When it comes to the death penalty, although

I am an advocate of it.

I.

See and have heard about trials where where the

defendant is really in a kangaroo court of sorts and really has

been railroaded because all the evidence is circumstantial and

You see even evidence that some of that circumstantial evidence has been You

know tampered with and so on.

And even you have physical evidence.

With blood and so on being planted and all kinds of things of weapons being planted

and you have dirty cops at times, you know doing all

kinds of horrible things to make sure The suspect or the

accused is found guilty.

And in the Old Testament.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Was there not a requirement in Deuteronomy that there be two or three witnesses?

In fact, let me see Deuteronomy 17 6, right?

We have on the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses.

He who is to die shall be put to death.

He shall not be to put to death on the evidence of one witness and we have in our day

People being put to death with no witnesses.

Yeah, so, I mean, do you think that that's a legitimate?

Reason for one to say now, wait a minute.

Maybe we shouldn't be too hasty with this.

That's I think

that's the

clack

knowledge.

So yeah, there's no need nobody is I think with this concept of

the death penalty I hope nobody's rushing out and saying well, let's

just put to

get

death as

many are are put

to death.

That's why

I believe in

government.

And we're what we find in the older covenant

people will

do

today

either at all.

I think the only we had somewhere in the neighborhood of

670 people on death row that

have been

convicted.

Take the next step in a

one different and those two

and.

The.

We have both heard of A number of cases where people who were truly

innocent, but who were on death row Have been pardoned

Very shortly before their sentence was to be carried out their death sentence because

DNA evidence or other things that were not available years ago have Come to the surface and the person

has been exonerated of all crimes.

It doesn't that Make.

Shouldn't that make us very cautious?

About the manner in which we believe the death penalty should be pursued.

It should make us

so.

There have to be

standards and

prescriptions

that

we follow and we

follow

faithfully.

And we follow With not with the view to color of skin or race or anything

like that.

The old idea of justice is blind that either it

is what the judge is back.

Is it infallible?

No, but there isn't any.

Well, there's

probably sure of the time

and so therefore we should never.

I mean that would be to fly in the face of everything that we know from

the older and the newer Testament.

I guess that you could even use a Just war as an example.

No one is ever going to be able to guarantee that innocent civilians are killed in a just war and.

Even.

For the police to legitimately Use their firearms in public.

Well, we're pursuing a criminal that there's no guarantee that an innocent bystander will not be.

Accidentally killed you remember.

No exactly.

Yes.

Okay, and there was a young mean, correct?

What's that?

Yeah, I mean Dada.

Yes.

When the Israelis when

Air France

passed.

And

so the

one of those things we live in a fallen world is be and

to the best of Our ability we should follow God's word,

but you're.

We're going to a break right now when we return.

I'd like us to go into your answers to eight secular objections to the death

penalty and also Answers to five Christian objections to the death penalty

and if you'd like to join us on the air.

Those of you listening with your own question for our guests and we do have a couple of listeners who have already submitted questions.

Thank you for patiently waiting.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's ehr is a RNZ n at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages with more.

With our guests.

Dr. Ron Gleason and his book the death penalty on trial

Taking a life for a life taken.

Do not go away.

We're coming right back.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority It must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to A lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and

love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled

resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org.

That's Providence Baptist Church ma .org.

Or even on sermon audio calm.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

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That's the private story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Sarns.

And if you just tuned us in our guests for the last hour and the hour to come.

Today is dr. Ron Gleason.

We are discussing his book the death penalty on trial Taking a life for a life taken.

In our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson a gmail .com before we go into the eight secular objections to the death penalty and your

Responses to them and then of course five Christian objections to the death penalty in

your responses to those.

Michael's yes, Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question and being an enormous fan of the late.

Dr. Greg Bonson.

I'm surprised that he has kept his mouth shut.

The entire time I admit the competition here is really stiff to get a word in.

But.

Actually, I wanted to mention something just slightly off but yet pertinent and that was up.

It was one week ago today.

Of course.

We had our guest Ron Gleason and I'm talking about gun control and he left a cliffhanger for us to get him back.

Which was the death penalty and I just want to say you have left another cliffhanger that you know, Chris.

We're gonna have to have him back to talk about those.

Six.

Aspects of a Christian world in my view now.

We're never gonna let you get off of this this program.

I'll tell you what you're gonna be a co -host before you know it.

But this is a very interesting subject and I'm so glad that we were able to have you back to talk about this

and this is part of the reason I'm so quiet is because I'm I'm listening.

And this is just great to hear you talk about these things.

I have a few things that I Just we're wondering about myself.

You hear some of the objections like for example David committed murder, but but was not

Executed, you know Cain was not executed when he killed Abel.

How do you answer to these things?

Yeah, those are great questions.

I think

there's

any easy

cause

David

that that

sin

covered

by

God and

David was

allowed

to be

that

king

because

it

was Through the line of David when we the

notion of God's covenant.

We see

that in

and then through Isaac

and Jacob

redemptive history

not take.

Yes, and even.

Although the Church in the apostolic era was in no place

of political Authority it is interesting that the Apostle Paul who

was spared by God A death penalty for his

horrific crimes as soul of Tarsus when he rounded up men and women to be executed.

You know for their Christian faith.

Well, you also have Paul writing specifically In the first

Corinthians 6 where he's talking about all the different sins and he says such were some of you.

And of course murderers are in there.

Yes. Excellent.

Excellent point, but you actually had an excellent.

I.

Think thinking back to David.

I'm just wondering to you know about the fact that he was the the the king who

had the right to send Uriah into battle and Technically speaking even though it was

malice in his heart.

It was so I'd say all in a day's work sending a man, but it would not be ambushed.

I mean that was not a typical Kind of a thing.

There were a leader is sending out his his most prized military.

I wasn't excusing David.

I think that's really really true.

And you

think

of

somebody

who how could that?

Israel into all kinds of idol worship and all of this.

How could that be.

And the same thing

is.

Talking about people who

used to be no better.

Well, there was some good reason that I had buzz is my sure.

Anyway, let's move on to those because we are rapidly running out of time, even though we've got 50 minutes left

that can go by in a bullet like a bullet.

And if you could go through some secular objections and your rebuttals to them and then move

on to the Christian objections.

Yeah, I had

a hit of

the

rule

of

law

that

has not been

complete that it is

irrevocable it really is is quite clear.

Once the person is Put to death called them back.

So if there's an error

Earlier

with the

whole idea of man being created in the

image of God We as Christians are to have a view of sanctity of life.

But it is not to be as one of my ethics professors taught me in Holland It's not to be an

absolute.

There are certain

where in the case of someone who has

committed a murder that we absolutely

extent that we will not put him to death

and God is on

a Machine who we want

to knowing that our loved one is where

they're going to be

artificially Forever that they're made in

the image of God.

So we have a very high view of huge of God and man, but it's not an

absolute take that to be.

And why don't I take this time to take one of our listener questions?

We have Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who says do you think it's ever appropriate?

To.

Pardon someone guilty of murder when clear and

Irrefutable evidence of their conversion or repentance and remorse

has been demonstrated in prison, especially if The loved ones and

family of the victim approve of such an action.

I think that's a good question because you do hear about Circumstances where

even the the family of a victim may

Either just because they were opposed to the death penalty or because they believe the person has truly Demonstrated repentance and

remorse.

They think that there'll be a productive member of society and they have on occasion even rallied

to Stop the death sentence from going forward.

What is your opinion on that kind of a thing?

Yeah, I

verified that

they were in fact the ones who committed it.

They should

they

be a

really

matters

most

Christ

after

their

execution.

Mm -hmm.

I was

member

who was 91 and I quoted from

the Westminster shorter

catechism quest

to believers.

I

think the

Westminster.

In fact, I just providentially.

Yesterday saw An interview with a death row inmate

before he was executed.

He was a death row inmate in Texas.

He was On death row for killing a police officer and

this young man became a Christian in prison while on death row and

the the beaming look of Acceptance and

peace That he had with his sentence.

He had a beaming smile and it did not retract it all from his remorse and repentance over

doing such a horrible crime.

I don't mean to give the wrong impression that he was smiling.

But he was smiling facing death and the interviewer said what's the last thing that you're going to be thinking Before

you die in that death chamber, and he said I'm going to heaven and he had

the this authentic Beaming radiant smile and he he was fully

accepting of this penalty did not Complain about it or oppose it believed it was the best thing

to bring closure To all involved not only the victim's family, but even his own children

to see that a harsh penalty Should be acted out

upon somebody guilty of a horrific crime like that.

So it was really a.

Remarkable.

Interview that I saw.

Yeah link

to wager and I'm

sorry that if I

Interjected that listener question and probably that was great.

That was that was perfect.

I thought it did apply for both a secular objection and a Christian rejection because there are Those who are non

-christians who look at rehabilitation as a reason.

But if you could continue because I don't want us to run out of time before we get to more of these rebuttals to objections.

Well.

Society.

The message that human life no longer deserves respect.

How about abortion, right?

How about you

that pronounced the

death

it had to

do primarily by

taking the life of and by the

way?

Arnie, you've got a surprise coming to you.

You're getting a free copy of the death penalty on trial by dr. Ron Gleason.

Compliments of the publishers Nord Skog publishing and We want to thank

Jerry Nord Skog and the folks over at Nord Skog publishing

Pauline and everybody over there for providing these free books to give away to our listeners.

We have a limited number so if you want to receive one shoot us an email as soon as you can

and I'd like to give a plug to their website Nord Skog publishing comm nord

skog Publishing dot -com and I hope I'm pronouncing your last name right.

Jerry Nord Skog.

Wonderful people and I'm assuming that's Scandinavian name.

Thank you very much and God willing you'll be getting that book in the mail shortly.

And we do have a couple of other listeners already waiting with bated breath to have their Questions asked and answered.

But if you could move on to some more objections.

Yeah.

The

number

of

abortions

was 27 times higher than all the

cash pride

ourselves and

yet

we have no defense.

Another objection is I smiled in

the sense that

yeah, it actually is because do

that crime again

Egregious sin and all Israel will see

that thing there is.

When you read that does that mean that 100 of the people 100

of the time will get

away with

Gravity will probably act as a

deterrent for what we have to keep in mind when we do these things God

prescribes it.

And so it will be a deterrent for that one person.

They will never Do such again and they won't even be able to do it in

prison by killing another inmate.

Well, you know, I think.

The reason it's wanting to see justice done that one of my favorite TV shows is Columbo,

you know.

When he's on the case, they're going to be caught, you know.

But I just wanted to mention one other thing that came up to me when you were talking about the abortion issue

since we're on the subject of capital punishment that I think needs to at least be said and that is.

There are some of course who take it upon their own hands to be the judge jury and executioner in the matter of

abortion where they feel it is okay to Shoot an abortionist simply because he has

murdered a.

Vigilante vigilante isn't yes, right?

And obviously you're saying that that's a that is an unbiblical act.

Yes.

Yeah, it's

unbiblical from both

the old as well as the

new.

Yeah, I mean the

old test that we are not to avenge

ourselves.

God has been government

officials who are now

things that person a murderer

doesn't right?

And so yes, that person has become a murderer and Christians are not to do that.

The Bible is and it is

ironic and absurd that the leftists who are pro.

Abortionists and Anti -death penalty mock us for being

Against abortion and in favor of the death penalty.

They think that our position of the absurd but we're the ones that believe in protecting innocent life and

Executing guilty murderers their position holds no water at all.

I mean, it's absurd and it's insane actually.

Well, it is but you may be surprised maybe the number of times I've

done and that's exactly the question that a caller in Will say how can

you be?

Anti -abortion and pro -death penalty.

And I will say well, that's fairly simple once you stop and think about it

it could not

say either on the

air or even in writing just

someone who Committing a heinous horrific

don't know the difference that

you

had horrific

and gruesome.

And and it is interesting that for the last.

Several Occupants of the Holy

See in Rome an office that I reject.

But in fact any Bible believing Christian should wholeheartedly reject.

But the the Popes of Rome at least the last several of them have taken that liberal or

leftist stance that that since we are Pro -life we should be pro -life

even when it comes to Guilty murderers, but I can't help but say this brother

though.

I do rest my head a little More peacefully on my pillow every night when I know that the Popes are

against the death penalty.

In fact if you

could pick up right on that thought when we return because we have to take our last final break and.

This is your last opportunity to join us on the air with a question that Chris Orns and a gmail .com.

We'll be right back with our guest. Dr. Ron Gleason after these final messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next half hour to follow our guest has been and will

be Dr. Ron Gleason.

We're discussing his book the death penalty on trial, but I don't know if it escaped.

Either you Ron or buzz here.

But what I meant my my last comment about resting my head peacefully on my pillow Knowing that the

papacy is against the death penalty.

I'm talking about a resurgence perhaps in the future of persecution of Protestants is what I

actually meant by that but You were saying that there is a secular objection that might even

be a Christian objection.

That the a life sentence is even more of a harsh Sentence than

an execution would be.

But when God says what I want I

Learn

from

all the letters

Mentator or now

that

we transfer

over to

the objections by

Christians.

I just want to squeeze in another listener question.

Okay?

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who wants to know.

Do you believe that the The story of the woman caught in

adultery in John chapter 8 Is something that was

actually a part of the New Testament Canon?

Many of the scholars I've heard discussed this matter are saying that this was only

found in later manuscripts and Therefore I was wondering if it should be taken

seriously as an argument against the death penalty since it seems to be used quite often.

To.

Prohibit or oppose a New Testament or New Covenant.

Death penalty, right?

Great question.

And of

course,

even if

it were a

part

of

the the God -breathed word.

There is not a murderer here in that story, right?

And if so, if you could move on with Christian objections, okay.

Well.

We have a number of.

On

spider would

argue the ethic of G was

no

different

than the ethic

of Yahweh in

the Old Testament.

Yes.

Risk the Bible against it

that the ethic of Jesus was or the ethic of

Isaiah.

This is that in other parts of the

scripture.

It was in the New Testament where the Apostle Paul even

said.

If I have done anything worthy of death, I refuse not to die.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let me quickly squeeze in another question from Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Who asks how do we differentiate to the very common objection?

To.

Capital capital punishments support of Christians that we are behaving no better than

Islam.

Of

the view which I must admit I mean

that is several and

even Bill

Maher what looks

at that as

an absurd.

Another classic

we find

and really in

any other religion under

don't as I began to

just look at the numbers I

know basically.

The

Christian really I

think

they're just

Christian false.

Obviously that Christians are still sinners

and that Christians are dealing with their sins every day and as the Puritan Jonah, and

I just want to let our last two.

Listeners who emailed questions?

I want to you to know that you are receiving free copies of this book the death penalty on trial as

well.

So if we don't have your full mailing address, please get it to me as soon as possible if you could move on to

another.

Yeah, some of the previous quote.

How should we that rehabilitated

murderers could or could we

also have to deal with the whole idea of this?

Unfortunately, the recidivism rates which means that people who have committed crimes

like this have gone out for you.

Not too terribly long ago.

But you thought it was a good thing to do.

So I think we have to have

very Realistic Utility

of sin the words

without our

from a Latin there.

There's going to be no hope no salvation apart from Christ.

No hope apart from the grace of God.

So I would kind of look at the last one

I dealt with in the book is it has to do with the Deuteronomy 17

to someone in error and Again, I think people Need to

understand that there's just nothing 100 except the God and a fallen world.

God is the only being that is word is the only word

that is 100 that

every Christian

Oh to

make how that word

you have.

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who says I'm sorry if you had brought this up and I missed it

but how do you handle the objection from some Christians who may say we should never rob a

Lost individual of the opportunity to repent because if we believe in the death

penalty as Christians We are hastening their entrance into hell.

Well,

but

but

God

Society is what I tell you to

do not what you can conjure up that might happen or

could happen.

Let's say it works.

The other way, let's say that we're trying to be kind.

We're trying to be gentle.

We're trying to

happen and Disregarding

Is that we take God at?

Yes.

Someone word is a lamp unto my feet.

And so we are able to see where we're supposed to be going because we all.

Constantly God

says I want you in

that we're not.

Yes, and another facet of that too.

Though is how many people when they witness, you know.

The first things out of their mouth is if you were to die tonight, you know.

If you were to walk out in the street and get hit by a bus, you know, would you be ready, you know to meet God?

Well, at least in the case of capital punishment, but the person knows when he's going to die.

Yes.

Yes, yeah, we do have an anonymous listener who wants to know as a Christian is it

ever appropriate to pray That the life of a loved one on death row is

spared.

You sure look prayer is.

But I do believe that if there is

great again,

and it is

interesting that you even have.

Professing Christians Who will speak about things like the death penalty

as if they are innately evil?

It's if they are totally ignorant of the fact that God is the one that designed it even if you take a

View that it's not applicable for the new covenant or our present day.

To say that it's innately evil is Ridiculous because God is the one that ordained the death penalty.

Clearly yeah, if you believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and You believe that the Old Testament is a

part of the Canon God has no bloopers, right?

And I really want to make sure since we only have eight minutes left I want to make sure that you

Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave the program today.

There's such an important subject as this.

Yeah, I think the important thing what I want the

fact that the death penalty is not a matter of our feeling

there.

There's a gut level the

level feeling.

At the beginning of Romans chapter 12 Paul talks to us about our spiritual

worship and reminds us that we are not to be conformed to the world that we are to.

Be.

Transformed as Christians by the renewing of our mind.

It is imperative that if we want to know the mind of God

We must use our own.

What God has given us in Scripture is.

Go to that source.

Twice a year didn't have an iPad or an iPhone.

He didn't have TV so he couldn't watch shows like Columbo.

Terrible disadvantage.

Didn't have the

distractions that

we have now

you tell me please about your prayer

life

response

to that is if we

Confess to be infallible and in here at the Bible

at

least is God's.

No, who used

only probably on the

real scandal of the evangelical much of one.

And I think that's a terrible getting to believe

more and more that when I talk to

when I talk to Christians who tell me that they are Christians

Conversation will go this way.

Well, I'm a Christian, but I think same -sex marriage is okay and My immediate response to

them is what text or text from the Bible.

And that's the right thing.

I would say that about any ethical such death penalty guns

abortion euthanasia Homosexuality drug addiction alcohol abuse,

whatever it happens to be I think that's a very important question for us to ask ourselves constantly

what text or text From the Word of God has convinced me that

this is the correct thing to do.

And that is what I think is important for all of our ethics as a Christian.

We talk in our Christian circles today a lot about what we call practical

Christian living and yet I'm convinced that by and large We're not sure what that

is and a lot of that has to do with the fact that when I talk to people who tell me they're Christians

and I say Where do you find the Ten Commandments in the Bible here in the

headlines?

You can tell me and I ask them what are those commandments?

I'm I'm more than pleased if they can get in any

particular also convinced that if you and I want to live

putting

Really quickly,

yes.

Very quickly.

I'm gonna squeeze in one final listener who wants to know it's an anonymous listener who wants to know is it ever appropriate?

To oppose the death penalty.

If you happen to live in a country that the death penalty is being abused greatly and

people are blatantly being executed.

For crimes that do not deserve such a punishment.

Yeah, that's a great question, too.

The answer is you're not really so

what you do in that country if you're living in such a country.

Then you in your power legally to change the system

because the death penalty is.

Those of you who wrote in anonymously if you give me your full mailing address I will have a free copy of the

death penalty on trial sent out to you and obviously you will not be identified on the air.

But I want to thank you so much for being our guest today.

You are definitely.

You definitely have an open standing invitation to return to iron sharpens iron whenever your schedule permits.

Dr. Gleason.

Well, thank you.

It's an honor.

It's been an honor for me Chris and Bob that I

will be able to come back.

Be with you and the website for your church is grace Presbyterian net.

And once again, the publishers website is Nord scog publishing comm.

That's n o r d s k o g Publishing comm.

I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you are a sinner.

God bless and we look forward to receiving your questions tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.