March 7, 2016 show with Dr. Ron Gleason on “The Death Penalty on Trial”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in Conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. Who are listening via live streaming? This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all a happy Monday on this seventh day of March 2016.

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome back to the iron sharpens iron program somebody who has quickly Become a favorite guest of mine. Dr. Ron Gleeson. We just recently had in fact last week Dr. Gleeson on the program to discuss God and guns.

The.

Christians right and duty to defend self and family and Today we have him back on the program to discuss the death penalty on trial Which is actually a book that he has written published by Nord Skog publishing and the full title is the death penalty on trial taking a life for a life taken and It is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron.

Dr. Ron Gleeson. Thank you. And for our listeners who missed the last broadcast. Dr. Gleeson is pastor of Grace Presbyterian Church. Which is a PCA Church or a congregation within the Presbyterian Church in America?

And that is a conservative Historically a reformed and theologically Calvinistic Denomination when people hear the word Presbyterian in this day and age Unfortunately, depending upon where you live in this country or in the world for that matter You may immediately be thinking of some very liberal mainline and even dare.

I say apostate church. But that is certainly not the case With the PCA and with Grace Presbyterian Church and briefly let our listeners know even though you've done this before but for our new time listeners Let our listeners know something about Grace Presbyterian Church.

And once again Greet our co-host again today pastor or should I say I keep saying pastor reverend Buzz Taylor who is not currently pastoring. I don't want to give any reason for Fury and anger from your congregation by calling you pastor Is a member of a PCA congregation Reverend Buzz Taylor, but he has in the past been a pastor And a number of different churches that ran him out of town on the rail.

I'm intimately associated with the left foot of fellowship. If you could greet one another buzz and dr. Gleason, well, dr. Gleason sure is good to be on with you again. That's true, too. Yes. Well, you know, I gotta get handed to Chris.

He Requires that even his designated driver be ordained. So that's good.

Either that or he has the gift of discouragement.

The Death Penalty in the Old Covenant and Its Continuity Into the New

Well, this is a very important book another book worthy of our attention. Especially perhaps during an election season when we are watching the Republican and Democratic primaries on the television with various reactions from Across the board of those who are Leftists to all the way over to the other extreme of those on the right people.

Watching with bated breath many of us disappointed frustrated angry. Some of us have even given up and do not plan to vote.

If.

There are certain people elected Or should I say chosen to represent the Republican Party in The primaries or when the primaries are completed, but the death penalty is obviously something that not only divides Liberals from conservatives or Democrats from Republicans because you actually have People on both sides that you may have Democrats who were in favor of the death penalty and Republicans who are not.

So it's not even that easily determined. But you do even have some disagreement Amongst those who profess to be Christians and even a evangelical Christians. I'm assuming that because of the heated debate Over the death penalty that has existed For quite a long time in this country that that is one of the reasons for the Genesis of this book, but if you could explain why you in fact, he wrote it.

Well that my desire to engage those money.

Give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own. Regarding the death penalty for dr. Ron Gleason our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please include at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and.

Please.

Unless it's involving a personal or private matter. Perhaps you have a loved one who is on death row or something and you just don't care to identify yourself. You may remain anonymous, but if it's not involving a private matter, please at least give us your first name city and state and country of residence and.

Before I move forward with the discussion. I just wanted to announce the very wonderful news to our listeners that our topic of discussion last week on gun control has led to what looks like the publishing of Manuscript of yours on that topic by one of the sponsors of iron sharpens iron solid brown Christian books.

Indeed throws of Holly ring wall and fast waller.

I'd like to let our listeners know to keep your eye open and keep revisiting Solid-ground-books .com. That's the website for solid ground Christian books solid-ground books .com for updates on that book being released in print and.

Now going back to our topic at hand the death penalty it seems that a lot of the debate stems from. How much it is?

Rightly.

To be brought forward from the Old Covenant into the new or from the days before the earthly ministry and death and resurrection of Christ. To our current day in the 21st century. Because most people would recognize and admit That the death penalty was something Established in God's law in the Old Testament, but there seems to be a difference of opinion on whether or not that is a law that would be Perpetual through our modern day.

And if you could comment on that, right?

I think that is it's a great question. And you love me. There's more than sufficient law in my view is I Take older covenant is one book. The Lord has called us to call these the Covenant. Then we will be able to how the older however having said that let me qualify one more thing because there are Obviously and that is Pat by the Lord Jesus.

So there but there's a there's a case in point I don't first relationship and by way of kind of a sidebar. Please let it's not an affair. That's a euphemism. But in that case if the witnesses were brought forward and the case were established They were put to death.

Now in the New Testament, he said I'll be at the state vaguely a Statement that Martin Luther have the death penalty then the death penalty and people looked at him with a kind of a quizzical look. Like well, but so there are some changes.

But there are a lot of things one of the texts that I believe is foundational for all of this in the Old Testament. This is nine and pronouncement about what is go on there and it goes out it reads pretty much like this and For your life blood I will require a reckoning required and his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

Whoever sheds the blood of man and.

One of the Things that one of the texts in the New Covenant that I'm assuming you would believe is a primary text Proving that that Old Testament mandate still stands is in Romans 13 1 through 7.

Yep.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted by. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed and those who resist will incur judgment.

Rulers are not a terror for good conduct, but too bad. But you have no fear of the one who is an authority. Then do what is good and you will receive his approval for the for the one. Let's see. I missed my place here.

It was.

Would you have no fear of the one in authority then do what is good and you will receive his approval for he is God's Servant for your good, but if you do wrong be afraid. For he does not bear the sword in vain for he is the servant of God an Avenger Who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer?

Therefore one must be in subjection not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscious or because of this you also pay taxes for the authorities are ministers of God attending to This very thing pay to all what is owed them.

Taxes to whom taxes are owed. Revenue to whom revenue is owed. Respect to whom respect is owed. And honor to whom honor is owed. So I'm assuming that that would be something that would confirm in the New Testament from the very Pen of the Apostle Paul that that law and those laws in the Old Testament regarding The death penalty at least for certain crimes are not abrogated.

Precisely, and that's a great word and I would add to that one more text with approvals on how they could come to understand why the The death penalty is our time and I would add to that That in the older covenant there was a egregious sin that Wanted that death penalty was being imposed The Lord with.

Now there are them applaud. I think most biblical life and worldview. For them. Founded in Scripture. Because we're going to come against a society that is not Christian. And we need to bring forth our presuppositions that we draw from Scripture.

Before we go to a break I'm going to ask you a question and then you'll have time to ponder it during the break and answer when we return. But my question is for you. We seem to both be in agreement and it is Fairly clear from the words of the Apostle Paul that the death penalty is Something that is appropriately Improperly carried through to the New Covenant to this very day.

But the question I have for you is. Under what terms or for what crimes Would the death penalty be applicable today in your opinion? And is there only one answer to that? Do you believe that the Word of God gives liberty to varying cultures and Nations who have varying forms of government.

To apply the death penalty in different ways as long as it wasn't something that was a clear violation of a biblical command or mandate. Perhaps you could think about that when we go to a break right now and.

And if you'd like to join us on the air as well with your own question, our email is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And Please as I said before give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old USA, we'll be right back with dr Ron Gleason and the death penalty on trial right after these messages.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for my now seeking the approval of man or of God. Where am I trying to please man. If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things?

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles priority. It must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and Vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 528 5750. That's 508 528 5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons Worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.

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The Death Penalty, Biblical Justice, and Governmental Authority

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is dr Ron Gleason and we are discussing his book the death penalty on trial Taking a life for a life taken. If you have questions of your own Our email address is Chris Arns and at gmail .com.

Chris Arns and at gmail .com. And Basically before the Before the break I was asking you In light of the fact that we both seem to be in agreement that the death penalty Is something carried over from the old covenant law?

Through the New Covenant and is applicable today even in the 21st century. And my question was but Are there is there a difference from the old to the new? Regarding what crimes where one may rightly apply that very severe And final penalty if you will.

And if there is also liberty to answer that question differently amongst Various nations and various governments as long as a clear Mandate of Scripture is not violated.

Right a great question that would that was punishable by death in the New Testament does how I say that people will think I'm With the church hopping that goes on today. Yes, for example, this is not of adultery.

They don't believe in it and these people now go to that other church and they begin to take every time they take The bread and the wine the church poultry as a crime put on and really way down the road.

But if eventually if that is created and there is a very true Psychological sense and a number of the complaint murders. They are truly and really Striking whole idea of man having this Special place of life in ship God now the other part of your question, which I thought was would call today contextual one Country to another country and their laws now, obviously each country will probably as a sovereign nation Will make its own laws.

But I do believe at the same time right across the board and apply to any and all whether they are saved. We're not saying let me explain what I mean by that in the Old Testament we're told of God's destruction of Sodom and God judge Sodom and Gomorrah by a Different standard of righteousness than he did for his people and the short answer of course is no he didn't there's one standard of one tradition in the Presbyterian Church in America the Westminster confession of we confess whether they are believers.

Or non-believers, this is a universal ethic. This is God's Universal gift not only telling us about his nature in his character. But how he expects New Testament Paul writes to Greeks the churches in and it's in first Corinthians in Particular he holds can the Dutch to his entire creation but about these into the world it used to be that the church was the conscience of the world and That if the world was without going crazy, you know, this is what time this is what God wants Mary God wants obedience to look like but lately I would say we have Generations we have lost.

We have lost those that the church no longer stands up as church the church Looks you have that phenomenon. You're back into the Old Testament in.

I'll give you a couple examples of Specifics of what I mean. If a nation believes in the death penalty It will most certainly have first and foremost in mind the death penalty for murderers, right? But would it be inappropriate for a nation even our own? To want to adopt that as a penalty the death or capital punishment as a penalty for pedophilia.

Are and that actually at this nation has in the past used the death penalty towards traitors Against this nation who were spies For the communists and so on. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg immediately come to mind Traitors such as the Execution of private Slovak if you remember.

But if you could Are these appropriate ways for a government. Do they have there's a government any government have the liberty in God's eyes To use the death penalty for things such as that. Yes.

I would answer that one death penalties for things such as that as long as they are that you could derive your Principles from the Word of God that that would be totally now.

What about the manner in which? The death penalty is brought about a you and I I believe judging from what you have said would vehemently oppose the execution of Someone for theological heresy, right?

And we would look at that as a dark Spot or a blight upon the record of our mutual hero John Calvin because he consented to the governing authorities in Geneva. To executing the heretic Miguel Cervito Michael Cervitas who was opposing the Trinity.

But.

Calvin also Begged or pleaded with the authorities not to burn him alive and was pleading with them for a more humane Method of execution which fell upon deaf ears and he nonetheless Cervitas or Cervito was Burned at the stake.

Now. Do you think that there are any biblical prohibitions to a means by which any given? Governing authorities choose to put someone to death. You're referring to stoning to death exactly. I had my microphone on mute.

So maybe not even the second most pleasant way to be but God by premeditated murder With such an egregious sensual various name the word as I did my research for discomfort. Did not register very highly.

Yes, and of course the Church of Rome would probably be the the experts on being inventors of evil. When it comes to the methodology of torture and death that they devised over the centuries. Yes.

And.

One of the things I do want to get to especially is for the last hour. I want to get to eight secular objections to the death penalty and five Christian Objections to the death penalty, but before we do that There are certain things that I think.

Give me Reason for pause When it comes to the death penalty, although I am an advocate of it.

I.

See and have heard about trials where where the defendant is really in a kangaroo court of sorts and really has been railroaded because all the evidence is circumstantial and You see even evidence that some of that circumstantial evidence has been You know tampered with and so on.

And even you have physical evidence. With blood and so on being planted and all kinds of things of weapons being planted and you have dirty cops at times, you know doing all kinds of horrible things to make sure The suspect or the accused is found guilty.

And in the Old Testament. Correct me if I'm wrong. Was there not a requirement in Deuteronomy that there be two or three witnesses? In fact, let me see Deuteronomy 17 6, right? We have on the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses.

He who is to die shall be put to death. He shall not be to put to death on the evidence of one witness and we have in our day People being put to death with no witnesses. Yeah, so, I mean, do you think that that's a legitimate?

Reason for one to say now, wait a minute. Maybe we shouldn't be too hasty with this.

That's I think that's the clack knowledge. So yeah, there's no need nobody is I think with this concept of the death penalty I hope nobody's rushing out and saying well, let's just put to get death as many are are put to death.

That's why I believe in government. And we're what we find in the older covenant people will do today either at all. I think the only we had somewhere in the neighborhood of 670 people on death row that have been convicted.

Take the next step in a one different and those two and.

The.

We have both heard of A number of cases where people who were truly innocent, but who were on death row Have been pardoned Very shortly before their sentence was to be carried out their death sentence because DNA evidence or other things that were not available years ago have Come to the surface and the person has been exonerated of all crimes.

It doesn't that Make. Shouldn't that make us very cautious? About the manner in which we believe the death penalty should be pursued.

It should make us so. There have to be standards and prescriptions that we follow and we follow faithfully. And we follow With not with the view to color of skin or race or anything like that. The old idea of justice is blind that either it is what the judge is back.

Is it infallible? No, but there isn't any. Well, there's probably sure of the time and so therefore we should never. I mean that would be to fly in the face of everything that we know from the older and the newer Testament.

I guess that you could even use a Just war as an example. No one is ever going to be able to guarantee that innocent civilians are killed in a just war and.

Even.

For the police to legitimately Use their firearms in public. Well, we're pursuing a criminal that there's no guarantee that an innocent bystander will not be.

Accidentally killed you remember. No exactly. Yes. Okay, and there was a young mean, correct?

What's that? Yeah, I mean Dada. Yes.

When the Israelis when Air France passed. And so the one of those things we live in a fallen world is be and to the best of Our ability we should follow God's word, but you're.

We're going to a break right now when we return. I'd like us to go into your answers to eight secular objections to the death penalty and also Answers to five Christian objections to the death penalty and if you'd like to join us on the air.

Those of you listening with your own question for our guests and we do have a couple of listeners who have already submitted questions. Thank you for patiently waiting. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's ehr is a RNZ n at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with more. With our guests. Dr. Ron Gleason and his book the death penalty on trial Taking a life for a life taken.

Do not go away. We're coming right back.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man. If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity. But since that wasn't the Apostles priority It must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to A lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750. Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org. That's Providence Baptist Church ma .org. Or even on sermon audio calm. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Sarns. And if you just tuned us in our guests for the last hour and the hour to come. Today is dr. Ron Gleason. We are discussing his book the death penalty on trial Taking a life for a life taken.

In our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson a gmail .com before we go into the eight secular objections to the death penalty and your Responses to them and then of course five Christian objections to the death penalty in your responses to those.

Michael's yes, Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question and being an enormous fan of the late. Dr. Greg Bonson. I'm surprised that he has kept his mouth shut.

The entire time I admit the competition here is really stiff to get a word in.

But.

Actually, I wanted to mention something just slightly off but yet pertinent and that was up. It was one week ago today.

Of course.

We had our guest Ron Gleason and I'm talking about gun control and he left a cliffhanger for us to get him back. Which was the death penalty and I just want to say you have left another cliffhanger that you know, Chris.

We're gonna have to have him back to talk about those.

Six.

Aspects of a Christian world in my view now. We're never gonna let you get off of this this program. I'll tell you what you're gonna be a co-host before you know it. But this is a very interesting subject and I'm so glad that we were able to have you back to talk about this and this is part of the reason I'm so quiet is because I'm I'm listening.

And this is just great to hear you talk about these things. I have a few things that I Just we're wondering about myself. You hear some of the objections like for example David committed murder, but but was not Executed, you know Cain was not executed when he killed Abel.

How do you answer to these things?

Yeah, those are great questions. I think there's any easy cause David that that sin covered by God and David was allowed to be that king because it was Through the line of David when we the notion of God's covenant.

We see that in and then through Isaac and Jacob redemptive history not take. Yes, and even.

Although the Church in the apostolic era was in no place of political Authority it is interesting that the Apostle Paul who was spared by God A death penalty for his horrific crimes as soul of Tarsus when he rounded up men and women to be executed.

You know for their Christian faith. Well, you also have Paul writing specifically In the first Corinthians 6 where he's talking about all the different sins and he says such were some of you.

And of course murderers are in there. Yes. Excellent. Excellent point, but you actually had an excellent.

I.

Think thinking back to David. I'm just wondering to you know about the fact that he was the the the king who had the right to send Uriah into battle and Technically speaking even though it was malice in his heart.

It was so I'd say all in a day's work sending a man, but it would not be ambushed.

I mean that was not a typical Kind of a thing. There were a leader is sending out his his most prized military.

I wasn't excusing David.

I think that's really really true. And you think of somebody who how could that? Israel into all kinds of idol worship and all of this. How could that be. And the same thing is. Talking about people who used to be no better.

Well, there was some good reason that I had buzz is my sure. Anyway, let's move on to those because we are rapidly running out of time, even though we've got 50 minutes left that can go by in a bullet like a bullet.

And if you could go through some secular objections and your rebuttals to them and then move on to the Christian objections.

Yeah, I had a hit of the rule of law that has not been complete that it is irrevocable it really is is quite clear. Once the person is Put to death called them back. So if there's an error Earlier with the whole idea of man being created in the image of God We as Christians are to have a view of sanctity of life.

But it is not to be as one of my ethics professors taught me in Holland It's not to be an absolute. There are certain where in the case of someone who has committed a murder that we absolutely extent that we will not put him to death and God is on a Machine who we want to knowing that our loved one is where they're going to be artificially Forever that they're made in the image of God.

So we have a very high view of huge of God and man, but it's not an absolute take that to be.

And why don't I take this time to take one of our listener questions? We have Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania. Who says do you think it's ever appropriate?

To.

Pardon someone guilty of murder when clear and Irrefutable evidence of their conversion or repentance and remorse has been demonstrated in prison, especially if The loved ones and family of the victim approve of such an action.

I think that's a good question because you do hear about Circumstances where even the the family of a victim may Either just because they were opposed to the death penalty or because they believe the person has truly Demonstrated repentance and remorse.

They think that there'll be a productive member of society and they have on occasion even rallied to Stop the death sentence from going forward. What is your opinion on that kind of a thing?

Yeah, I verified that they were in fact the ones who committed it. They should they be a really matters most Christ after their execution. Mm-hmm. I was member who was 91 and I quoted from the Westminster shorter catechism quest to believers.

I think the Westminster. In fact, I just providentially.

Yesterday saw An interview with a death row inmate before he was executed. He was a death row inmate in Texas. He was On death row for killing a police officer and this young man became a Christian in prison while on death row and the the beaming look of Acceptance and peace That he had with his sentence.