Feb. 2, 2016 Show with Ron Glass on “What Actually Happened on Calvary? Atonement Made Possible OR Atonement Accomplished?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this second day of February 2016.

Introducing Pastor Ron Glass and the Question of Calvary

And as all of you heard, who tuned in immediately at four o 'clock, we are still having a little bumpy road when it comes to the technological realm. But I'm sure God will get us through this broadcast because I'm so delighted to have one of my dearest friends and one of my most important supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron as my guest today.

This man has been a personal encourager, a Barnabas, a real prayer warrior and a help to me in many ways, too numerous for me to list, not only just through spiritual counsel and prayer and advice and friendship, but also the financial support of this radio broadcast and the encouragement and urging to relaunch it back in June of 2015 after four years of absence from the airwaves.

This is my dear friend Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York. And we're talking about one of the most controversial issues that separates Bible-believing, born-again, evangelical Christians, and including even separates those who profess the name of Baptist.

But we are going to be discussing an issue that I think is very important. In fact, every Bible believer should believe it is very important, no matter which side of the debate you fall on. This is the question, what happened on Calvary?

Was atonement merely made possible or was atonement accomplished through the blood of Christ? And here to discuss this is my friend Pastor Ron Glass. Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church.

Well, Chris, it's a delight. I appreciate that more than words can say. And before we even get into the vital topic of the atonement, what happened on Calvary's cross 2 ,000 years ago, let's hear a little bit about Wading River Baptist Church for those of our listeners who are hearing you for the first time and are.

Not aware of that congregation and what it is all about. And you also are twice.

A week, every weekend, you are on Eastgate Broadcasting, which not only has several local Eastern Suffolk County radio stations broadcasting your River of Life program, but people anywhere in the world can hear those programs via live streaming at eastgatebroadcasting .com, eastgatebroadcasting .com.

And tell us what times they can hear your program.

Of broadcast. Okay. So that's Saturdays, 9 .30 a .m. and Sundays at 7 p .m.? 7 .30 p .m.

7 .30 p .m. So it's 9 .30 a .m. and 7 .30 p .m. Okay. And that's eastgatebroadcasting .com. And if you live in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, when you go to that website, you can actually find the radio stations, the FM radio stations called Faith FM that actually air that program.

And I happen to have the honor and privilege of editing Pastor Ron's sermons for that program. And basically what I'm doing is taking one sermon and breaking it into two self-sufficient freestanding programs.

And I think that the Lord has blessed these programs. And I, for one, am thoroughly blessed every time I get a new batch of sermons to edit because I have to listen to these sermons several times. And that is only to my own personal joy, edification, and benefit because Pastor Ron happens to be one of my favorite preachers.

So I really urge you to look into his River of Life program. Now, Pastor Ron, there seems to be a widespread lack of urgency, certainly in the world, but also in the church over the question of sin and its consequences.

What accounts for this,.

In your opinion? Well, many people today claim to believe in God and even to be spiritual,.

But they have turned their back on religion and the Bible, and their spirituality doesn't seem to impact the way they live. Is there a flaw in their thinking?

Well, yes, I think frequenting worldly places is an antidote, it seems.

As a pastor, don't you run a danger when you preach theology from the pulpit? Don't you risk alienating and confusing people?

I think that that's apparently what a lot of people are preaching upon themselves, simply by the fact that they have brought a type of theology into the world that is deadening, and that's not a good thing.

I think when we preach theology, we preach it with excitement and liveliness. We preach it with a sense of urgency and with eloquence. The last generation used to say that urgency is the mother of eloquence, and you have a sense of urgency.

You have a sense of the importance of this subject. That subject, even though we would call it theology, we just had an example of this this past... I've just opened a series of Hebrews, and I was in chapter 1, verse 3, and essentially was preaching Christology.

And the interesting thing about that was that when I got done, to meet me in the foyer was a young man whose family is here on and off. They're not here all the time, but he's a recent high school graduate.

And he came up to me and immediately started asking me, I thought about Roman Catholicism, because he had Roman Catholic friends, and he was quizzing me on certain points of theology. Now, I have never hardly talked to this young man in terms of anything substantive.

They're not a family who's an intimate part of the fellowship of the church, but I preach theology to the church, and this young man came up and immediately, it wasn't directly on the subject I was preaching, he began asking me about theology.

And that kind of just confirmed it to me. You know, when you preach theology to your church that you know, you know what God's Word teaches, and then they will open up to you about some of these profound questions.

And that's a really important thing. Well, the thing that I find interesting is.

When I hear from a person who is typically a modern evangelical, for lack of a better term, and perhaps even a modern Vatican II-minded Roman Catholic, but they will say things like, why do you insist on causing division amongst brothers in Christ with all your theology and doctrine?

Let's just lift up Jesus. But the fact of the matter is, every time somebody opens their mouth about Jesus or about anything that's in the Bible, they are talking and they are proclaiming theology and doctrine.

It just may be very bad or false theology and doctrine, but doctrine and theology are just teachings about God and His Word, aren't they?

We're hearing saying, we want to live the life that we have chosen. And what you do when you preach truth is you essentially make it un-cum-for-grits, whatever you want to call it. Yet I think what happens is you end up purifying the church.

That's God's way of this church and comparing it to...

Sin, Holiness, and the Need to Be Right with God

Well, in light of what you said, what is the most important question facing any person today?

Human beings is that of a sinner. We do not become sinners, but rather our sinful acts are the result of the outworking of our nature. So what then is to be done about this? Because God has pronounced and He has said in unknowingly that type of thing.

No, we're talking about anybody. Of course, every one of us has to admit that we sin multiple times a day. We even sin when we don't realize we're sinning. And so we are all under the condemnation of this important question.

How can I be right with God? I've got two alternatives laid before me. One, to continue life in my sin, the wages of which, the end of which, the judgment of which is eternal hell. Separation from God for eternity with no...

That is the outcome. That is the destiny. ...without Christ. The other, of course, alternative is to receive the gift of grace that God has given in the Lord Jesus. The provision for that, to receive that free gift for Jesus in Jerusalem, living in the light of His...

I think all of us would have to say that's not really much of it, be in the latter option. But the problem is we have to get there because almost, well, the overwhelming majority of people that I hear, when they die, even if they die, people around them will say, well, we don't just automatically go to heaven.

That's a myth. That's Satan's lie. And therefore, to put it in biblical terms, we need to pass from a state of death, separation from God, to a state of life, or a state in which our relationship with God is right.

That's the great question today. And another way we can put that question is how can a perfectly holy God accept me, a fallen sinner? The theological truth underlying the answer to this question is the doctrine of the atonement.

And I would suggest that behind the doctrine of the atonement, there lie at least three presuppositions. Number one, holiness and justice. And because of His holiness, He is absolutely just, as we just talked about.

And that's both in Old Testament... The third presupposition, then, is that our God is a God who has demonstrated judgment and extending undeserved kindness, and He should show kindness to them. They've done nothing together.

God did this. How is it that God can do this injustice?

In fact, that's a vital question that we have to pick up right after we return from our first break here. So if you'd like to join us on the air with your own question for Pastor Ron, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And we already heard from Eddie on Long Island, New York, who disagrees with the Calvinistic understanding of the Atonement. So, Eddie, we would love to hear an actual question from you, if you're listening still.

And anybody else, whether you agree or disagree with what's being said today, we would love to hear from you. You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, but we ask of you, please, unless it's a sensitive issue, a personal or private matter, please include at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

We're going to be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled Resting in Grace.

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Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times, 631 -929 -3512, or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and we have as our guest today, if you've just tuned in, the pastor of that church that we were just promoting in that advertisement, Pastor Ron Glass of Wedding River Baptist Church in Wedding River, Long Island, New York.

We are discussing the atonement, and I have posed it in the question as a theme, what happened on Calvary? Was the atonement merely made possible, or was it accomplished, actually accomplished by the shed blood of Jesus Christ?

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, whether you agree with what's being said or whether you disagree, even if you're not a Christian, we would love to hear from you, and perhaps even especially if you're not a Christian.

And our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Pastor Glass, before we went to the break, you were posing a very important question about how a holy and righteous God reconciles wicked, rebellious, and sinful men to himself.

If you could continue where you left off there.

Christ’s Death, Satisfaction, and the Rejection of Penal Substitution

Okay, and then omnipotent, so God could just, you know, he could just overlook sin if he wanted to do that. And so the purpose of Christ's death then was that God would demonstrate the laws of the moral governor of the universe to show that, now let me just mention conception, self up, and sacrificial, well obedient, unto death, or sacrifice of love.

That was more pleasing to the father since he made, important word, satisfaction. We're going to be coming back to that. The father was never angry with Christ, and the father never poured out his wrath on his son.

Christ was an act of great love, the greatest revelation ever seen of the heart of God in glory. It was actually on the cross suffering. God the father was not poor. It was Christ's act of self-sacrifice and loving obedience.

But all of this pain, St. Francis of Assisi, he said, nor did demons crucify him. It is you who have crucified him and crucify him still,.

When you delight in your vices. By the way, I want to just quickly let our listeners know who are just tuning in mid-sentence that these are not positions you were advocating. You're.

Going through historical teachings on this. Yes. Roman Catholic view is the reformed element, the reformed in death, involved God pouring out his wrath, and he poured those out on Christ. Christ is elect because the death of Christ was not conception then, or the curse, that it was to actually punish his son.

He punished Christ, the elect are now paid for through Christ, having been punished for them. Then the elect can never be punished for any sin that they might ever commit. Never actually punished for the sins, which is why when God deals with us, it's a loving father.

Yes, he chastises us, but not punishes us. Behind that is that if Christ died for everyone, this would entail universal salvation. And those who take an Arminian position or does not, there is a problem there, and I think we'll talk about that in a little bit.

I think it's interesting that today, many of those among the Arminians, and of course, there are quite a number of those who would logically fall into that category, but absolutely refuse to call themselves that.

You have many Baptists who are in reality four-point Arminians. They believe that the truly born-again person cannot lose their salvation, but on all the other points of Arminianism, they are in agreement and typically refuse to call themselves Arminians.

Many of these individuals say that they believe in substitutionary atonement, but they cannot really claim to hold to that view because it is not really consistent with what they view as actually occurring on Calvary, can they?

I mean, if Christ died as a substitute, then he cannot punish those in hell for whom he died, can he?

Well, see, that's the situation that the Bible teaches double jeopardy, which means that Jesus paid for my sins on the cross at Calvary, but because I didn't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, I end up in hell for eternity, and I pay for my sins there forever.

If you don't mind, I would like to quote Charles Haddon Spurgeon on exactly what you're talking about, if you don't mind. The reason why I'm quoting Charles Haddon Spurgeon, obviously, Charles Haddon Spurgeon did not contribute to the canon of Scripture, nor does anybody in their right mind believe that his words are God-breathed.

He is not inerrant and infallible, but one of the reasons I bring up Charles Spurgeon is that he is greatly beloved by people across the evangelical spectrum, even those that are vehemently anti-Calvinist, ironically.

And here's what Charles Spurgeon said in his defense of Calvinism, which is actually a part of his autobiography. Here's what he said about exactly what you were just saying. Spurgeon says, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has he been disappointed?

For we have his own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with his blood.

That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption.

To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in hell seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that he was the substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of divine justice.

That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities.

God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good.". I just thought I'd throw that in there because of the great love that people have for Charles Spurgeon on both sides of the theological divide, and especially because many of those who, when they hear you defending particular redemption, definite atonement, or limited atonement, they are recoiling with horror and they hate what you're saying, but at the same time and in the same breath they uphold Spurgeon as a hero, and many of them even either out of ignorance or willful deception are spreading the lie that Spurgeon did not believe this.

So I just wanted to get that out of the way, and I apologize for.

Interrupting you, Pastor. No, no, that's numbered with the transgressors. He himself... In fact,.

We're going to have to go to a break right now, Pastor Ron, I apologize, but we have to pay the bills here, so we're going to be right back after these messages, so I hope that you all stay tuned. Attention coin collectors and investors.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York. He is also a former professor or adjunct professor of Bible exposition at Talbot School of Theology.

Today, we are discussing the atonement. And we are asking the question, what actually happened on Calvary? Was atonement merely made possible? Or was atonement accomplished once and for all by the shed blood of Jesus Christ?

And our email address, if you'd like to join the conversation, is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. We were in the middle of a discussion on a text in Isaiah that Pastor Ron was pointing us to.

And let me just quickly interject or inject, I should say, a question, one of several questions that our listener Eddie from Long Island, New York, who is not a Calvinist, has asked. And I'm going to ask his last question first, because I think it will perhaps change the atmosphere in the minds of many who are listening, or at least some who are listening.

His question is, do you believe that because I do not believe in limited atonement that I am not a Christian? And if you could answer Eddie's question before returning to Isaiah.

I think I got it when I was in college, and I still go to one which talks about predestination. A single reference I could find in the Bible which absolutely proved that predestination could not be true.

And I argued vigorously against that as it's set forth for us in.

Scripture. In fact, none of us perfectly understand. None of us. No, of course not.

And things like this, there's a good way to say this that wouldn't stand.

Yes, amen.

One of the reasons that I disagree is difficult, or usually the argument, because people over here over here believe that people who love Christ can never know. Most cases, because I think in hiding some of these things so that we have the great pleasure and privilege of digging them out.

And there is a tremendous... How does that mean that there aren't some things that we don't understand about all these? Yes, and which doesn't happen to be our subject today, but it's related to it. When we come to that, there is a major question that is totally beyond our comprehension, and it's not a matter of revelation.

And that is, why does God choose the answer to that question in God's Word? And there's no answer to that question that we can provide. That is within. Maybe someday He'll reveal it.

But one thing that we know for certain, though, it is unquestionably true that He does not.

Choose anyone because they deserve to be chosen, any goodness of any kind. No, that's right.

Even the correct and wise choice of Christ and the choice to follow Him is not the basis upon which He looks down the corridors of time and chooses someone, because then He would still be choosing a human being on the basis of goodness in them.

Right. That's a foreknowledge, and well, they would never...

The sin of pride exists amongst all men, whether they're Calvinist, Arminian, or Atheist, or whatever religion they may claim. It's just that those who subscribe to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, Reformed Theology, Calvinism, however you want to define that or label that, we have less of an excuse because the doctrines we hold to be precious are supposed to humble us, not exalt our pride.

Well, let me go back to Isaiah 53 and remind you, each of us has turned to his own way. The Lord has caused the iniquity of us. He was numbered with the triumph. Punishment, just to remind you of what is in Romans chapter, own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died.

Corinthians chapter 5, the last verse of that chapter, He made Him, that is God the Father, made Him, God the Son, who knew no sin, that is God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, was not guilty of any sin on His own, but He made Him to gain a standing of righteousness.

The concept is very important. Imputation is a word which refers to accounting, to one's account. So anybody who's ever studied accounting, was to debit or credit on a ledger sheet or whatever. That's what you have here.

And this account, which is the point of 2 Corinthians 5 .21 that we just read. If I could just interrupt for a second, just to clarify something, if you don't mind.

Some of the wording that you're using in these passages, those who reject definite atonement, particular redemption, limited atonement, they will say, see the use of the word, He died for us, for our transgressions.

Everybody can claim that, they'll say, because they think that that word is being used universally. But doesn't the reader have to understand who is in the audience and who is being discussed? Because in one of those texts, in Isaiah, Isaiah is saying that we are healed.

So therefore, it's not everybody that he's referring to, who is receiving the benefit of the stripes of Christ. It's those who are healed. Am I correct? So therefore, the one who is in hell cannot claim that he was healed by the stripes of Christ.

Am I right?

I mean, you have a statement.

Many. Here's one that's a classic. I remember a friend of mine who's a fundamentalist Baptist who despises Calvinism. He said to me, look what it says in John 1 29, behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

And I said, well, you're putting an inflection on the word world. But how about behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, takes away. So therefore, it cannot be, John the Baptist could not be speaking about every single person who has ever lived because Christ did not take away their sins.

Otherwise, hell would be empty. Am I right? So therefore, I'm sorry if I interrupted.

You. No, no, I am glad to have you. And John himself in Revelations refers to the world.

As those from out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation. So therefore, all kinds of people from all over the planet. That's really what it is.

That's right. And at that time, which were primarily the Christian community in Asia Minor.

Right. Well, if the word propitiation means to turn away wrath, then how could he possibly have turned away the wrath of those who never come to Christ? Because therefore, you would have to be a universalist in the truest sense that there is no wrath waiting for the Muslim, the atheist, the child molester who is unrepentant, etc., etc.

If you really believe that the sins of all those people who have ever lived and will ever live have been a propitiate, there has been a propitiatory sacrifice for them too, then they have nothing to fear.

If you don't mind, let me talk about one time it was behind that curtain. All of that was contained in this box. On top of that box was a lid and mounted on the lid of that box were two sculpted, engraved golden cherubim angels, images of angels called the mercy seat.

The mercy seat, I think, is here in the temple. The Shekinah presence was as though it were the seat where God was sitting between those two cherubim on that lid over that box. That lid separated the very holy presence of God as manifested in that cloud from the reality of the broken law of God inside the box.

So between the broken law and the glory of God, there was this lid upon which blood was sprinkled. Then the other goat, the live goat, hands on that goat, confessed the sins of the nation and sent the ghost to the wilderness, never to return again.

An important fact to see here is the amount of sin for the entire nation. Sacrifices were offered throughout the year, every day of the year. Sacrifice provided a cover on that box and because he saw the blood punished the nation.

It was similar to what happened when the blood was put on the doorpost and when the angel of the Lord saw the blood. With that in mind, in terms of the spirit-inspired commentary from Hebrews chapter 9, accordingly both gifts and can not make, they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, he entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say not of this creation, not through the blood, entered the holy place once for all eternal redemption.

It is of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled of the flesh, how much more through the eternal spirit offered without blemish through God. Cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the Lord.

For this reason he is the mediator of dangerous manners, not like the old one, so that since the death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one. A priest enters the holy place year by year, that is not his own. Otherwise he would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world.

The consummation of the age, those sacrifices, there is a reminder of sins year by year, day of atonement, right? For it is holes and goats too. What was happening in the day of atonement was sins were merely being covered, they weren't being taken away.

And so Israel's sins were not removed, they were just covered by the blood. So now he says in verse 14 of the 10th chapter, by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. So the sacrifice of Christ is a once for all sacrifice.

The day of atonement took place once a year. Sacrifices were offered every day of the year. Why? Because those sins were not taken away. Those sins were simply covered by the blood. They were looking ahead.

The sacrifice that someday would come that would take away sin, that was the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ when he shed his blood. So what I'm saying is this. I think that there's a value of atonement in the order of number, appreciation.

I try to make it as simple as I can. And this is the illustration I use with our folks.

And in fact, can you bring the illustration to light when we return from the break?

Absolutely.

This is our final break. And Eddie, we will get to at least part of your very lengthy question. And you know something Pastor Ron, I think that this definitely demands another program, maybe even next week if you're free.