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March 13, 2018:
JACOB SMITH, rector of the historic Episcopal Parish of Calvary-St. George’s in NYC, will discuss:
“A BORN AGAIN EPISCOPALIAN”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris Arnton.
Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnton your host of iron sharpens iron radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 13th day of March 2018.
I'm so delighted to have a Returning guest on iron sharpens iron radio that has not been on the program For quite some time, in fact, he the last time he was a guest on iron sharpens iron radio he was on the old Program the original iron sharpens iron radio that was broadcasting out of WNYG and WGBB radio in Babylon Long Island, New York, this is his first Appearance on iron sharpens iron radio as far as the all-new version of it broadcasting out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania and being live streamed globally via first love radio in Dublin, California.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio the Reverend Jacob Smith rector of the historic Episcopal Parish of Calvary st. George's in New York City. It's great to have you back.
It's a real pleasure to be on and back with you Chris and.
Babylon was a great place, but I'm glad to see you've been delivered from it. I.
Do have fond memories of you. Yeah, I'm the train out to Long Island and we'd usually have lunch before you came to the studio and Those were some fond memories and some great interviews not only with you as my guest But you were also my co-host when we interviewed Dr. Ashley.
No, and I believe I had you on with your your colleague at Mockingbird ministries. That's right, and so we had we had some Excellent interviews back then and I'm very confident today will be one of them on the all-new iron sharpens iron radio.
Yeah. Well before we go into the theme of born-again Episcopalian, which is actually being motivated or inspired by the biography of Charles Pettit Mickelveen that was written by Thomas Garrett Isham and Before we get into that theme itself which will be much broader than just the biography of Mickelveen, but the the whole concept and the Phenomena and the historic reality of born-again Episcopalians because people today See that as an oxymoronic term very often perhaps even within the Episcopalian Communion, but We will get to that in a moment.
But I do want since this is your first time on The new iron sharpens iron radio and we have a lot of new listeners that we didn't have before. I'd like you to give Something of your testimony of your religious upbringing.
When you realize that you truly did love the Lord Jesus Christ and in fact Realized at some point that you were given a call by God to Become a rector yourself, but tell us about that whole story.
Yeah, well, um, we uh born on the Navajo Reservation up in the four corners and in in Monument Valley and my parents weren't missionaries as a lot of people ask. They were hippies and had gone out there to try and change the world and.
However, when I reached about nine kind of the adventure ended and we moved to. We moved to the southwest corner of Arizona a town called Yuma and.
There.
My family got involved in a in an evangelical Episcopal Church called st. Paul's Episcopal Church at the time it's gone through a split and and. But it still still retains much of its evangelical nature today.
But growing up, I'd you know, I didn't know any other Episcopal Church. But the evangelical kind of strain of Anglicanism. J. I Packer was our rector's professor for when he was in seminary there was this great relationship and Packer would come through and teach at our church and just.
It was a really gospel focused church. However, kind of one of those things you don't really know what you have in the midst of it and I Went to when I graduated from high school. I spent a year in Finland where My host family's father the like grand the father of my host father was a state Lutheran minister in the Church of Finland and basically while I was there you we had a couple of theological conversations and my theology being 18 and you know, I would have said I was a Christian but was held together with nothing more than bubblegum and chicken wire and it slowly kind of got knocked down by Rationalism.
When I came back, I really didn't know what I believed or why I believed it wasn't interested in going to church and.
And when.
When I was in college, I had reconnected with some old friends who had gotten involved in the campus ministry and I went with them to a Revival meeting and and at this revival meeting at the University of Arizona.
I came forward and and Accepted Christ and I was crying and I was so moved by the by the preaching of the gospel and Joined a fellowship group. However in this kind of group. This was basically the last time I ever heard the gospel in that group from then on it was about are you?
Experiencing and are you feeling Jesus and it was all about feelings and I remember calling the rector of my church back in Yuma, Arizona and saying, you know, I just don't really feel this and He said something to me.
His name is Tom Phillips. And he said something to me that changed the way I thought about Christianity completely and he said Jacob It doesn't matter if you're feeling it right now. What matters is that it's true and.
And that blew my mind and And that became if you will by the power of the Holy Spirit the enabling word to rest my life not on how I was feeling at the moment, but But on the unchangeable truth of the fact that Jesus actually broke into history.
Made the claim to be God died for my sins and on the third day rose for my justification. And now in the midst of my like My feelings and ups and downs of life is at the right hand of the Father interceding for me and so this became Everything to me and it was in college that I heard the the call to ministry.
I eventually left that that group and got involved in inner varsity Christian fellowship and got involved in a church and then when I graduated from. When I graduated from the University of Arizona I went on to be a youth minister at my home church in Yuma, Arizona.
For three years where I was then sponsored by the Bishop of San Diego at the time Geffen Hughes who was an Orthodox believer to to go to seminary and they sent me to Trinity School for ministry. Which is in Ambridge, Pennsylvania, which is the evangelical?
Anglican Episcopal Seminary in the United States and it was there that I Really started studying for myself for the first time the 39 articles and the English Reformers and Martin Luther and Really got into biblical theology and that you know, the Bible isn't a yearbook where you look for yourself first.
You hear that so often I mean people are looking for themselves in the Bible, where are you David? You know, I guarantee you there'll be sermons this year on you know. What do you need to do to get out of the tomb of your life and that's not what the Bible is about.
It's not about a yearbook and you looking for yourself. It's about Christ as Luther said it is the manger wherein Christ is laid and That began to shape everything in my life and I began to realize that the gospel was even for Christians.
Not just for non-christians to lure them in but to but for Christians as well as a sustaining part of their life. I graduated from college some seminary. I Was called to New York City where I served and this was back in 2006 as the assist as the curate here at Calvary st. George's and Calvary st George's is here in New York right in the Union Square Gramercy Park area.
It's actually two churches that were merged in the 70s. It's Calvary which is on Park and 21st. Which is known in a lot of places as one of the founding places of alcoholics anonymous with Sam Shoemaker.
And then there's st. George's the great historic evangelical Church of the Episcopal Church.
In the.
1800s however, it had gone through. It had gone through a real it. Let's just say it had landed in a real ditch theologically for a long time and.
The.
The rector in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s the one who called me had really worked to bring about a renewal in the church and bring it back to its gospel roots and and they had begun to see a real transformation there and then he retired and we had Greg Brewer serve as our as our rector who's now the Bishop of Central, Florida and.
And then after he was called to be the bishop I was if you will the last man standing and. And so the Bishop then of New York said well, listen, Jake, you're welcome to stay for three years. But after that, you've got to go.
My wife and I like we you know, we received it and we said well this gives us the freedom to take some real risks and so we just went wholehearted preached preached the unapologetic gospel and By God's grace and through the power of the Spirit and the means by which he's given the church the the parish began to grow and in 2012 we had about a hundred and eighty at our Easter Sunday service and last year we had over 800 at our Easter Sunday, sir.
Wow, and yeah, and now it's not to say that I don't want to see the gospel as a means to an end. But it is just a God's faithfulness to us and with those results and us willing on being to take on another Episcopal church that's struggling st. Anne's for the death.
We're providing them oversight. The bishops that I'll make you director and our hope is that it won't just stop with st Anne's but we'll begin to move on and help out other churches as well and Basically replant them with with the great classic doctrines of the Anglican Reformation.
Well, praise God I am so happy to hear what is developing there because as you may remember you and I have An interesting story as to how we met and it involves Stephen Ting the 19th century low church Calvinist pastor of st. George's Episcopal Church in New York City and my dear friend who is also my very first pastor after my rebirth Mike Adosh of solid ground Christian books.
He brought back into print Stephen Ting's book the Christian pastor the office and duty of the gospel minister and so when I heard it that Ting after reading this book, I fell in love with this book and fell in love with Ting himself and I began to find out Well, what what is this church in New York City like today?
Because of the fact that Stephen Ting was long gone obviously being a 19th century hero of the faith and I found out that you were there. In fact the secretary I think specifically Connected me to you, even though you were not the rector at the time.
Because of your love for Stephen Ting your mutual love for Stephen Ting yeah, and I remember it that's the reason why you even accepted a An invitation to serve on the ministerial team there at st. George's was because of the connection historically with Stephen Ting.
Absolutely. Yeah, he was a great evangelical preacher in the Episcopal Church and a great leader of the abolitionist movement here in New York and also of the American Bible Society and putting the word first and He followed another great evangelical named James Milner who I hope more people will learn about.
But yeah, Stephen Ting is why I came and actually I make all of my staff now read that book at least once a year.
Well praise God. Yeah, and by the way, just to let our listeners know if you'd like to get that book You can go to solid-ground-books .com solid-ground-books .com and if you type T-y-n-g in the search engine Just like the old orange drink tang but replace an a with the Y.
You will get a list of several books more than several books actually that Ting either wrote himself or that Ting contributed to and that's solid-ground-books .com and What a blessing He is to read and many people outside of the Episcopal Church May be surprised how Ting wrote in a fashion that He he writes simply as a gospel minister.
You would not you would not necessarily Recognize the fact that he was Episcopalian or Presbyterian or Baptist. He writes as a gospel minister.
Right. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the one of the defining characteristics of a lot of the 19th century Evangelical Episcopalians is that you know, they're they're writing is is is broad. It's not necessarily denominationally In like, you know focused because in the sense that they weren't even liked by their denomination even then and So but uh, and they had a real heart and passion for the whole church.
And I also thank you so much. I don't know if you remember it, but you gave me a guided tour of The church and what to me it was just such a blessed time because of my love for Ting and Very remarkable because most people I'm assuming Unless perhaps they are Episcopalians themselves, but those outside of Episcopalianism might wrongly conclude that all Episcopal churches are Very ornate very much like Roman Catholic churches and of course, there are many that that do resemble Roman Catholic churches and are very ornate with Statuary and icons and all kinds of things.
But Ting who from what I remember you telling me he he actually designed st. George's if I'm right and With in a very purposefully simple manner that nothing would distract from the pulpit Where the sermon where the gospel was being proclaimed?
Yeah, that's absolutely right. He Specifically designed it not in the Gothic tradition Which is even what McElveen's church is. McElveen's church is designed in he designed it in the Romanesque tradition and it's actually a based on a on the Ludwig Kirch in Munich and so but the idea was is that Amidst the trials and tribulations of the world.
Here is your safety and when you go in It's shaped almost like a barn and the acoustics are incredible. And that's right. He specifically said I do not want any columns in this church. That in that would that would in any way impede the preaching of the gospel.
I mean, it's actually interesting to a lot of people don't know this but the the same person who designed st George's Church Leopold edits designed the state capitol building here in New York in New York State and Albany and so but it it is a stunning piece of architecture filled with a Lot of symbolism that points to in it in its plainness points to the importance of the preached word.
So in other words doing the lack of columns, so in other words ting guided the architect. He wasn't the architect himself.
Yeah, he guided the architect. I mean essentially. Yeah you I mean the architect provided the math. But he provided the theology.
Right, and the other thing that was interesting is that the Lord's table? Is a very simple table. It is not an ornate table that you would find in many not only Roman Catholic churches, but Lutheran churches and high Episcopal churches and even in some Baptist churches if they are of a wealthier stripe of Baptists in the neighborhoods where they are, but it's a very simple table and There is no cross on the wall behind The the pulpit as many Episcopal churches and other churches have and even Baptist churches.
Not even a barren cross. And I remember you telling me that ting only had the Ten Commandments and the Apostles Creed on banners on the wall behind him and you also told me the horrifying story of how one of the Liberal Rectors there years ago before you arrived tore Those down and threw them in the garbage.
Yeah, that was Carl Ryland and he he removed the two tablets of the law and the Apostles Creed off of the off of the From behind the wall and said he removed them and said I have officially removed all superstition from st. George's Church, and so he was very much a man of Rationalism and.
But I'm pleased to say that that no longer is the dominant or exists at st. George's anymore. Yeah, praise God.
Well, yeah, I am. I'm so happy that you are there. It's also So pleasing to me that you share ting's Calvinism and you share ting's adherence and Love for the 39 articles of religion. If you could comment on that.
Yeah, I think there's um There's a real trend in. Well, not only in the Episcopal Church, but I hear it in a lot of my friends in Anglican circles as well the notion that somehow Anglicanism is not a confessional church and.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Our confession is the 39 articles and it is clearly a reformed confession and and what it does is that it is it is generous in its confession and that it It it places the borders I think in Christian freedom and Liberty denying the heirs of the radical Anabaptists on the far left at the time and the heirs of Rome on the far right on the other and.
And so it is a it is clearly a reformed confession and one that I think should be the standard of every Anglican in this world. If you're not into the 39 articles. You know, maybe you should find another church.
And.
Well, let's tell us about you becoming the rector there because as I said, I When I first met you and I'm with the Several times that I had you on as a guest on iron sharpens iron radio when we were broadcasting out of Long Island.
You were not yet the rector you had some ministerial position there. Perhaps you could tell us what that was. But tell us about how the journey that you tell us about the journey that you had From arriving there to the point of becoming rector.
Yeah. Well, so like I said, I arrived in.
2006 and I was called to be what's called the curate and that's just a fancy old word for the cure of souls or the low man on the totem pole and so and I was the assistant and I was essentially in charge of Sunday school and and you know Christian education and.
And what happened was in these with these two churches because there's two churches the pulpit needed to be filled and so I Filled the pulpit for a little bit at st. George's, but then was moved over to Calvary.
Where? We started preaching regularly and and things really seemed to take off and we had a great clergy team at the time on the leadership of Tom Pike and and. And then he retired and in 2008 and then in 2009 the parish then called Greg Brewer who came from Philadelphia and you know, the church continued to move forward in a traditional Orthodox direction.
I would say at the time it was probably a little more charismatic than I am and but it continued to move in a in a creedal direction and and one that was a prayer book and focused and focused on Christ.
And then.
In 2012 the rector then was called to be the Bishop of Central, Florida and And and he so he went and I was if you will the last person standing now. There had been some like market crashes during the 2008 -2009 time and the church just couldn't go right into a search right away.
And and so I was asked to kind of stay and settle the boat and after That first year I was told well as the tradition goes. You only get a three years here Jake and then you have to go. There's a tradition kind of in the Episcopal Church not to promote from within.
You know, there's goods and bads to it. You know that the good side is is that it prevents the curate from leading a coup. The bad is is that sometimes, you know You have real stability in that and to to break that up can cause Uncertainty in a church and they'll lead to decline in all sorts of areas.
So but I was told I had only three years and that was actually probably a really good thing because It just kind of gave me the freedom to Because I was going so anyway, so it gave me the real freedom to Hammer home the doctrines of grace and to teach the 39 articles and to be Unabashedly low church and and not worry about it and Come to find out really I mean a lot of people especially families find that appealing, you know.
A reverend service without a lot of trappings and and so and especially at st George's we're seeing a real growth in that in our family ministry with people at from Spytown and Peter Cooper village, which are the housing complexes just the north of the East Village and so.
So but in a tooth have a great relationship with the Bishop of New York. We're friendly, but he sat down and talked with me and said, you know, Jake There's another church called st. Anne's for the deaf and they meet in our basement.
They're the oldest deaf congregation in New York City and one of the oldest deaf churches in the country and he said they really need pastoral oversight and some pastoral leadership and would you be willing to give it and I said, of course and.
And he said didn't we need to make you the rector so you can have the authority To begin to bring the whole parish on board and make changes there as well. And so he graciously made me the rector and I was instituted as the rector in 2017 of January, so I've been the rector now officially for just over just just over a year and and Things continue to go.
Well, it's it's not an easy position. You're no longer kind of the cool brother older brother who you know, you can say hey, you know. You know longer the cool older brother who doesn't have to make the decisions is the curate.
So, you know, there's a permanence here now and so I have to be wise in a lot of my decision-making however, that doesn't cause me to shy away at all from the preaching of the gospel, but you know, just there there's a there's a wisdom that needs to come now with the permanence of this as we continue to steer the ship and witness to Christ and him crucified and and so and so that permanence is you know as a guy who kind of.
You know, I find it I find it I find it exciting but at the same time the ideas of moving on are now done and so we see ourselves here until we basically die. Unless God has other plans.
Well, I look forward to having fellowship with you. Hopefully the next time I visit, New York because I always enjoy your fellowship and hopefully that will Be in the providence of God very soon. I think I forgot to give our email address for questions for our listeners earlier.
I apologize for that, but our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris ar n z n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Perhaps you have a pastoral question of Reverend Jacob Smith or perhaps you are in an Episcopalian Church, and you are very uncomfortable there because it has no resemblance to what our guest Jacob Smith has described or whatever the case may be.
Perhaps you're an Episcopal rector yourself and you're a lot more biblically minded than the Denomination worldwide or whatever the case is that would lend you to want to remain anonymous. We will grant your Risk your wishes in that regard, but other than it being a personal and private matter please give us your first name city and state and Country of residence at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. We are going to our first break now. But we'll be back shortly with the Reverend Jacob Smith and our theme a born-again Episcopalian tired of bop store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.
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That's a very important thing to do not only patronize their advertisers, but tell them where you heard about them. Well, we are back to our discussion with the Reverend Jacob Smith My old friend from the old iron sharpens iron radio program.
He is rector of the parish of Calvary st. George's in New York City. And we are discussing a born-again Episcopalian not only the specific biography that was written by Thomas Garrett Isham of Charles Pettit McElveen, but also the general theme of Being a born-again Episcopalian if you'd like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and we have some of you waiting to ask a question. But before I go to them, I just wanted to get a little bit more background. As far as our theme is concerned from you pastor Jacob.
What so captured your attention? About a bishop Charles Pettit McElveen, and I hope I'm pronouncing his last name correctly. I think you might have said Meikle vine before. Is that the correct way? I think I think we're both correct.
Well, of course he's not around to correct either one of us but what let me before I even have you answer that I'll just read something.
About.
Meikle vein or vine. From the author of the biography Thomas Garrett Isham. He says Charles Pettit McElveen who lived from 1799 to 1873. Embodied the evangelical creed of the 19th century. A clear-thinking intellectually rigorous Episcopalian he exemplified the deep emotional currents of revival and rebirth of the conviction of sin of the need to be born again into new life an Aristocrat by birth and bearing a bishop by consecration of the Episcopal Church.
He knew himself to be a common sinner in God's sight as much in need of rescue as the folk to whom he ministered. And that's from the preface written by Thomas Garrett Isham of this biography called a born-again Episcopalian.
But what what how did you first hear about Bishop McElveen and and what captured your attention. And your fascination about this man.
Well, I think I first heard about a McElveen in a seminary as well around the same time as I had heard about Stephen King. They were colleagues and Very good friends. They had a couple of divisions on a few critical issues, but They but so I heard about him during that time and and that was basically about it.
I put him on the back burner However, just in this last year and I actually picked up the book from us From a solid ground Christian books. I picked up the book. I actually began reading the the history of the 19th century evangelicalism standing against the whirlwind and and and McElveen features heavily in that book and so and I wanted to learn more about this man because I Think you know much of American Christianity looks very similar to 19th century American Christianity as well, you know.
You have a revivalism once again kind of sweeping sweeping a lot of American Christianity.
With.
You know churches like Hillsong and some of these big like kind of charismatic churches. And so your revival isn't sweeping the land on one level. You have a lot of evangelicals kind of on now no longer on the Canterbury trails they used to say but on the Roman Trail and.
And you or joining the Eastern Orthodox Church? And then also, you know your rationalism is kind of sweeping across Christianity again and and taking hold of a lot of a prominent evangelical mainline churches were 20 years ago nobody would have ever thought that would have been to the case and.
So I'm just wanting to be a student of history and and looking into it I you know, I thought that there could be definitely lessons learned there from a man who indeed is as the book articulates. I mean he walked in the presence of Kings and Aristocrats, but most importantly saw himself as a sinner in need of saving and and saw that as his message.
From the beginning of his ministry when he was converted at Princeton to the very end of it when he died. And so I felt like that that he has something to say to the church. Once again, I think across the board.
Yeah, well, we praise God that solid grand Christian books has has published this biography. Now I Understand that there was a revival occurring in Princeton when Mickelveen or Mickelveen Believed he was truly born again.
Am I correct on that? Yeah, that's absolutely right.
However, it wasn't It wasn't a revival like that was happening out in in Kentucky and in in rural parts of New England in New York. It was it was a it was a it was much different. I mean it was it was in it was in Princeton.
Now there were there were moments of some some of the some of the young converts wanting to become more emotional and Enthusiastic and there were a few riots people took their church seriously there but um, but for the most part it was it was it was a revival and a renewal that came out of doctrine as opposed to out of emotionalism and Enthusiasm and.
Yeah in 1815 Meckleveen who was a student there was converted and he was converted along the sides of men like Charles Hodge and John John who later became an Episcopal bishop in Virginia and and so but it was rooted in under under a lot of the.
You know, it wasn't the New Divinity revivals that were coming out of Yale and the and the heirs of George Whitfield it was much it was much different and it was rooted in in Calvinistic theology and and in the the and in the importance of the scriptures as the defining tool and and Rational thought.
There was a lot of real apologetic involved as opposed to anxious seats.
Yes, and but we we cannot. Let our audience think that George Whitfield was not a truly committed Calvinist.
People that followed him later on right in the New Divinity men understood the New Divinity men who wanted to really emphasize emotionalism and. That that later followed. And so this was a little bit different than what was going on up in New England later on, right?
And why was Meckleveen in or at Princeton to begin with. Was he studying to be a minister before he was even born again or what was the circumstances behind that?
No, no, Meckleveen came from a very important and prominent, New Jersey family and and so this was just The place where young men went to went to went to university. It was the closest University. Meckleveen actually grew up in a very As he describes it not even a really converted family at all.
You know, they might have attended You know, they might have attended on Christmas and Easter st. Mary's Episcopal Church in Burlington, New Jersey but for the most part he grew up in a very a religious family and he was actually Trying to follow the footsteps of his father.
And so he was initially at Princeton studying law.
You've been mentioning a couple of words that our listeners might not be familiar with. I know that there are Polar opposite Theological trends within Episcopalianism and Anglicanism. You have the Tractarians on one end that would also be known as if I'm not mistaken the Oxford movement of Episcopalianism or Anglicanism that is very Romish and then you have rationalism if you could explain those two phrases.
Yeah, so Well, the word the word the idea of high church has taken on various various terms and Definitions through since its first use originally in England. It was kind of associated with folks who had a high view of the divine rights of Kings and kind of followed James the second over a William of Orange and a lot of them moved over to Scotland and became known as non Jewers.
But that's that's beside the point. The high church definition initially in or the early Episcopal Church in the 17th and early 1800s was basically an idea that put in they had it they had Embraced a lot of the ideas of what was called a group called the Caroline divines and it put a real emphasis on what some would call today incarnational theology now.
That's a that's a that's a controversial term for a lot of us Reformed and Calvinistic Christians, but a incarnational theology and so it put really basically was that hey God was really nice to everyone and.
And that the high church theology the 17th and 18th century was shaped by these Caroline divines. Put a high view on kind of creation and natural theology. But the idea was that the Episcopal Church was the real church in America.
It was the real expression of Christianity and the safe and sane version of Christianity in America and and so therefore it had it had a very exclusive leaning to it and. But the but and a lot of the teaching was counter to the early reform doctrines of the Anglican Church.
The 39 articles were hardly mentioned in the training of an Episcopal minister in the early days the late 1700s early 1800s a lot of those who really cared about the scriptures had moved on into the Methodist movement.
Not all but a lot of them and so McElveen he's converted there in 1815 in Princeton and he goes and he begins to study for the ministry at st. Mary's in Burlington. However, this is okay. He then applies and moves to Princeton Seminary where he studies under guys like Archibald Alexander.
And he's trained in the Reformed Confessions not only in England, but on the continent. He's trained in apologetics. He's trained in Scottish rationalism. So he's trained in this so the high church movement initially was a movement that put an emphasis on the Episcopal Church.
It later it later shifts to Tractarianism and the Oxford movement, which I came about in the 1800s out of out of guys like John Henry Newman Edward Bouvier Pusey and John Keeble actually William Wilberforce's son Robert William Wilberforce became a big Tractarian but these were men who were were were theological dons in Oxford at the time and initially their protest was against the.
The English government Merging diocese in Ireland without the church's permission and they said, you know The church has really got to start taking a stand above and over and above the government. And so there was some good to this.
I'm a huge proponent of the separation of church and state and so but there was a there was some real good to this going On. However, what they began to do is is that they began to really introduce a lot of the ritualism and they began to teach Was the third branch of the Catholic Church and that there was very little difference between.
Actually, they began to twist and mutate if you will the teachings of the English Reformers by saying that they were actually Not really protesting Rome itself, but just a few of the heirs, but they denied justification by grace alone.
They emphasized the traditions of the church over and above sola scriptura and this began to make its way into the United States.
In the 1830s.
Roughly 1839 Newman's essay on justification came to the United States, which got McIlvaine's. Made him reach for his holster if you will. But um and because it was an attack on the reform doctrines that a person is saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone ultimately this the Tractarians also caused a split in the high church movement because a lot of the high church men while they did believe That the Episcopal Church was the church in America and the Church for America.
They were decidedly I mean You know Subconsciously convicted Protestants as well. And so there was a lot of debate even amongst the high church party at the time.
Even today there are there is debate.
Absolutely on the high church versus anglo-catholic.
Yes, in fact, I had a guest recently as you know, who is a high church Anglican but clearly Protestant and very committed to historic reformational Christianity.
Yeah, a lot of them would probably lean more towards Lutheranism than Calvinism and but the. But they are committed to the doctrines of grace. And so yeah, and so but the Tractarianism and and wasn't Tractarianism as a matter of fact, there were a lot of people and Mackle Vane actually Wrote an essay in what was at the time called the Episcopal report recorder.
Which was an evangelical journal for the Episcopal Church in the United States in the 1800s but he wrote under the pseudonym of Kremner and he talked about Tractarianism and coming in and now what you have to remember too was that the Roman Catholic population was skyrocketing in the United States at the time and.
And people were like what is going on? You know for the most part in antebellum America to be anti-catholic was like par for the course. But what happened was is that the church began to skyrocket with immigrants coming from Ireland and Germany and Italy.
And so people were like what is going on? And so a lot of people saw the Tractarian movement as kind of almost I mean the talk was that it was a Jesuit Conspiracy now, I don't know if we can go that far but Mackle Vane because they attacked the doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and because they attacked the inerrancy of Scripture.
Mackle Vane described it as the poison that has infected England now seeks to thrust thrust itself on the Episcopal Church and he and and His colleagues worked tirelessly to fight that fight that cause.
It's very interesting in his last days he did go on a trip to Europe and he went to Rome and he writes about going and to the Vatican and actually going into the catacombs and Seeing over the the burial of the martyrs across and Essentially in Latin rest in peace and he was like right here from the earliest days.
It is only the cross that brings peace nothing else and He left actually Rome vindicated in his Protestant understanding and his Protestant doctrines.
Well now let us get a summary of what rationalism is all about.
Rationalism essentially developed in the 18th century as well in parts of England and in and in Germany one of the big contributions to rationalism was a was a all sorts of new scientific discoveries and you know Darwin's theory of evolution and all of just major scientific discoveries which were causing people to second-think the book of Genesis and the stories of Genesis 1 and 2 plus you had a German scholars in Germany at the time beginning to question the whole move as well and.
So basically it was a call into question of the entire Bible, you know, they were like we've never found Hittites. So they must not have really existed actually, if you go to the Met now and to the Met here in New York City, you will see actually the the pottery of The Hittites they found the Hittite burials and and you can see them at the Met today.
But uh, you know, but basically archaeology wasn't that advanced and there was a lot of assumptions. There was this this idea that began to take hold the distinction between actual history and supra history.
And so, you know healings were actually medical. You know Hume argued this that healings were. Were actually medical medically verifiable and could have been explained medically. We just we just they didn't understand it at the time.
And so they've you know, or or You know leprosy. Well, maybe or not leprosy but demonic possession. Maybe that was just schizophrenia. They just didn't understand, you know science like we do today. And so it was a writing away of God's Word using Rationale as opposed to simply trusting in it and actually, you know I love what J .I. Packer says in his his reputation of rational.
He says, you know where you find that you have a problem with the Word of God. The problem isn't with the Word of God. It's with you and that we're to place ourselves underneath that and so but the rash rationalism was essentially a writing away of the scriptures and a writing away of the miracles and Essentially reducing and making a distinction between the Jesus of history and the Jesus of.
Scripture and those were the the two battlefields that McIlvaine had to wage war if you will within the Episcopal Church. And we're going to be hearing more about that and how that has even further Developed into our modern day after we go to our midway break.
This is our longer than normal break because Bracelife Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a 12-minute break between our two main segments. So, please be patient with us. Take this time not only to write down information that our advertisers give but also to write questions for Jacob Smith and.
Our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chris arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name city and state and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, we know that you have that.
We have several of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered, but we'll get to you as soon as possible. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jacob Smith after these words from our sponsors.
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I'll just have a couple of announcements. The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is once again hosting the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology and that is affectionately named Philadelphia Conference, even though it's now no longer held in Philadelphia.
It's been being done in tribute to the late. Dr James Montgomery Boyce a modern-day hero of mine, and I remember going to those conferences For a number of years at the 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia where they originally began.
But they are carrying on but in other locations if you would like to attend April 13th through the 15th The Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology is being held at the First Christian Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan.
And a lot closer to Philadelphia April 27th through the 29th. The conference will be held at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. In fact I happen to be right now in a historic parsonage a 19th century historic parsonage where The studios of iron sharpens iron radio are located and the daughter of Reverend George Norcross.
The daughter is plural I should say of Reverend George Norcross who lived here. Went to the Bryn Mawr College there, which is quite a respectable and renowned Institute for higher learning, but if you'd like to go to either of these locations either the the Byron Center, Michigan or the Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania location Pennsylvania location and I don't know if I mentioned the dates for that one it's 27 through the 29th of April for the Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania location go to Alliance net org Alliance net org click on events and then click on the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology.
This year's theme is the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit. The featured speakers are Daniel Aiken Richard Gaffin Daniel Hyde Conrad M Bayway my favorite preacher. I think the most powerful preacher alive today on the planet Earth.
He is the pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. Richard Phillips another friend of mine from Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina. Jonathan Master David Murray and Scott Oliphant.
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So send us an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com with advertising in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to our guest the Reverend Jacob Smith Who is rector at the Episcopal Parish of Calvary st. George's in New York City.
We are discussing a born-again Episcopalian and Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside The USA and before I ask any more questions of my own I am going to go to one of our Listener questions.
We have Melinda in Peekskill, New York. And she says hi Chris. Here is my question for Reverend Jacob Smith today. The Episcopal Church is known for its enthusiastic acceptance of homosexual clergy bishops and laity as a whole the Episcopal Church of the USA rejects the idea of Homosexuality as a sin.
What does your guest think of this? And that's again Melinda from Peekskill, New York. Oh, I think that.
The first thing to to remember is that The Book of Common Prayer and we can talk about that later. McIlvaine had a lot of thoughts on the Book of Common Prayer and some of its teaching but the Book of Common Prayer Which is our principle central part of our use of worship recognizes that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
I think that. Um, I think that and I agree with that 100 and and within the Diocese of New York we have been given permission to continue on that tradition here at Calvary St. George's and we plan on holding on to it because it is God's truth and and to witness to it.
There are a lot of folks who have said I can't stand stand this anymore and I need to get out. However, as I've described we have a church that has been around since 1747 and Has gone through not only been faithful in its evangelical confession But has actually reached the I think the bottom of you know In the in the 50s denying the gospel and the faith by removing the Apostles Creed and Ten Commandments out of the church.
So.
Maybe I'm a wishful thinker, but I have a great hope that something can be turned around and st George's was turned around and and and we continue to have a generous witness, but I do believe that a Marriages between a man and a woman it's been established by God in creation.
So this isn't just something we can tamper with and and change at the whims. The scripture upholds it as something not to be messed with and It and it reflects all sorts of things. The union of man and wife.
If you think it's just you and your spouse getting married, you are completely wrong. It involves. It involves God as well. And so in that you have man made in the image of God and woman made in the image of God.
Being brought together by God together as one flesh so in that you have a reflection of God's love not only for the church, but a reflection of the Trinity. And in a very profound way a marriage between a man and a woman is the true celebration of diversity and and so that is our position and it is the position of the Episcopal Church and the position of the majority of the centuries and it is the position of the Anglican Communion and.
That's that's where we stand. And it's the position of Calvary st.
George's and of course that would imply what you just said since sexual activity is confined only within the realm of marriage between a man and a woman that would involve a prohibition that all other sexual activity whether it is heterosexual or homosexual is is condemned as damnable activity.
Absolutely, you know and I do want to say that we have a number of gay and lesbians in our congregation. Who are trying to live and walk a chaste life? And trying to be fit and you know and are by God's grace living faithfully according to the scripture.
My big problem isn't necessarily my homosexual congregants. It's a it's my heterosexual congregants. And and I think the statistics show that many Christians are atheist when it comes to this. When it comes to sexual relationships outside of the context of marriage and.
But that is the only place that it is that it is that it is permitted is within the context of a Marriage under God a man and a woman.
Well, thank you so much Melinda from Peekskill, New York please keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and spreading the word about the program in Peekskill and beyond. And Basically, I wanted to read that question.
So I didn't steal any of Melinda's thunder because what I was going to ask you when we returned. Was did the rationalism that Mikkelveen Bishop Charles Pettit Mikkelveen was battling against was that the Tragically and horrific fertile ground for what is known today as liberalism leftism and even apostasy that we have not only in the Episcopal Church, but in many denominations across the spectrum.
Yeah, absolutely and it usually begins With the denial of the resurrection of the dead. That is where it all that's where it all stems from and you know, it it'll approach it through different ways like Questioning creation it'll approach it through different ways approach like questioning the exodus.
It'll approach it but it all kind of hinder hinges around ultimately. Did this man rise from the dead and you know, and that is one of the one of the great truths of Mikkelveen, he was a great apologist and wrote a number of essays on apologetics and His emphasis was on this idea of the resurrection of the dead and the testimony of the witnesses that we have from the Apostles.
But that if Jesus actually rose from the dead then everything else he says must be valid. For example, no sign shall be given but the sign of Jonah. No, you know, he speaks of Adam and Eve in creation and when he speaks about marriage and and so this rationalism usually ultimately all hinges and comes back to this denial of the resurrection of the dead and and if you're denying the Resurrection of the dead then you have to deny the doctrines of grace.
You have to deny the doctrine of justification you have to deny all of these other doctrines and this was a Mecklen's great tie-in between Between rationalism and a lot of the Tractarianism. He wrote a great book called the Oxford Divinity compared with that of the Roman and Anglican churches.
Yes I just got that by the way. Yeah, I heard it too. And it's it's powerful. I've read it online, but it's 500 pages of laid out reformed doctrine and. And and but he talks about this and he says, you know, all of this is interconnected when you begin to deny Justification.
Well, then you can deny the resurrection of the dead when you can begin to deny grace alone. Then what point why do I need Jesus in the first place, you know? And so all of this kind of comes together and in McElveen's mind was.
Was ultimately one in the same and we have another listener with a question. We have RJ in White Plains, New York who asks why it was the wing of Anglicanism. That was more reflective of Roman Catholicism called Tractarianism.
Now, that's a great question. Tractarianism was What it was called basically these these men and it primarily was as I said John Henry Newman Edward Verpuzzi and John Keeble. There were a few others. But they basically wrote a series of tracts.
And these were basically essays that basically tried to connect the Anglican Church and and downplay the Reformation but Basically connect the Anglican Church with basically Sarum Catholicism. This was the the medieval Catholicism of England at the time.
And so it was it was an attempt to try and connect that and so they were called it was called Tractarianism based on the tracts that they wrote in defense of their position. Ultimately though if you read track 90 and.
This is one of the reasons why I ultimately respect John Henry Newman is because he realized that the 39 articles are Do not connect to Sarum medieval Catholicism, but rather They are a reformed they are reformed confession and he later joined the Roman Church and became actually a cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church and I.
Actually cringe with Disgust and anger every time I hear the quote to be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant. Which is one of his most famous? Yeah quotes, which is I have found in my own experience the the 180 degree Opposite to be true, and I'm sure that you would agree with that.
I mean the more I read of church history the more I see that The Reformers were by far more in alignment With the the holy God breathes scriptures than the Roman Catholic Church. Oh.
Absolutely, and you know. And and what they were trying to do was be the Catholic little C Church in the local community. So, you know and this is what they were they they were trying to do and so in to bring faithfully the word and the means.
You know the word and and and the sacraments to to the people primarily the two Dhamma Dhamma full sacraments Baptism and Holy Communion. No others and so but this was what they were.
The Reformation was trying to bring to to the world. Yes, and even The more I have read of the Church Fathers the more I see them in alignment on crucial areas with the Reformers. Then I do that there is a myth that the Church Fathers the patristics speak with one voice in favor of What we see in the Council of Trent and even Roman Catholicism today, and I think it's absolutely absurd.
Yeah, well, actually that was that was. You know, when you think about the Reformers? I mean they were. They were. Many of them were like were were humanist and when I say humanist I mean the medieval humanism right.
Like the atheist today. But you know. They were trying to go back to the original sources and that was the appeal to their defense the patristics. And actually this phrase Via media, which is oftentimes Kicked around in the Episcopal Church today is we're like the middle way between, you know Protestant and Catholic or we're the middle way between Christianity in the world is like not the case with the via media.
Meant was that we were the middle way between the Reformation of Geneva and and and Wittenberg and the patristics. That was what we were trying to like that's the Anglican Reformation was about trying to find the balance therein and.
And but that is yeah I mean that the Reformers made their appeal oftentimes to the patristics not the other way around the patristics and the scriptures.
Amen. Well, you actually educated me on something. I did not know that that's what was meant by via media because I had always heard the the way that you said it was being misused that this was a comfortable place between Rome and Geneva.
The via media that sought to unite both I had not heard. What you just said about it being really between Geneva and Wittenberg.
Well, and this is the great this is the other there's another there's another profound lie. That's told. And this is interesting because in that Oxford divinity compared with that of the Roman and Anglican churches McElveen makes an appeal.
He not only makes appeals to Reformers like Luther and Calvin but he makes an appeal to Richard Hooker and. And today Richard Hooker is often taught that he taught a three-legged stool kind of thing of Scripture tradition and reason as if somehow all three of these are equal and nothing could be further from the truth.
Actually Richard Hooker's understanding of this was a ladder with scripture as the foundation for the whole thing and then tradition We appeal to because we're not just making this up on the fly. And then finally reason enlightened by the Word of God Moves us forward.
But it was never a three-legged stool because ultimately as we see in the modern church something will win the day and. So but this is this is the thing. So the via media was never an appeal to the middle way between Rome and some sort of mushy Protestantism.
We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York and CJ says I have heard the Roman Catholic wing.
Of.
Episcopalianism and Anglicanism referred to as Pusey ism. Can you explain that?
The I.
Well, I mean, I think Pusey ism is is is part is it's you know. It's a it's a word time and I might be incorrect on this. So I mean if there's the height of the Anglo Catholic expert out there can correct me but Pusey ism is basically following the teaching like the the ideas and the doctrine of Richard Edward Pusey and so it's kind of similar to being called Tractarian and being called a Tractarian.
It was like I was in line with the teachings of Edward Pusey who contributed to the Tractarian movement, but um, I'm not Quite sure on the Roman Catholic the Anglican wing of the Roman Catholic Church.
I do know that a couple of years ago Benedict allowed a number of them to come in and They have Started with called the ordinariate here, but it's not called Pusey ism. It's called the ordinariate of the chair of st Peter and it was for many of these people who ultimately kind of came around to where John Henry Newman was and said that Anglicanism ultimately isn't compatible with With Roman Catholicism and so we might as well.
I'll just link up.
We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who says. I have a friend who told me that he believes with certainty that many of the Anglican bishops who are anglo-catholic. He believes that the reason that they don't convert to Roman Catholicism and bring their churches with them is that they will lose their positions as bishops because only Anglican priests Will remain within their office after conversion to Rome, but the bishops will lose their seats.
Is this true?
Well, I haven't talked to anybody personally about this, but um, I do know for a fact that I'm the that a Bishop in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe is to be celibate except for in some of these Certain on but no no not even in them, but a bishop is celibate.
Yeah, so there's no chance for anybody to who comes in from the Anglican world to become a bishop now they and a Former evangelical Episcopalian who made his way over. He was the bishop of the Rio Grande and I knew him.
His name's Jeffrey Steenson is now well for a while was essentially like a Monsignor and Functioned as kind of the bishop of that ordinary at the group of Anglicans who became Roman Catholic. But he wasn't given the title of bishop.
He was given the title of Monsignor. So that's that's probably right. I mean, I don't know if that's the reason why they don't all go. I know that you know in Anglicanism I mean there is a there is a there is a freedom and there is a liberality to the whole thing which Can be as we've seen really terrible, but on the other hand can be very good.
And when you go into the Roman structure, I know that there are rules and regulations on how everybody behaves and how everybody you know. It's there's not the freedom kind of that they they would have I think and so that might be a holding thing.
But I don't know personally.
Well, we're going to our final break right now. If anybody else wants to join us on the air with a question of your own do so now or forever. Hold your peace because We're rapidly running out of time.
Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Reverend Jacob Smith of the Episcopal Parish of Calvary St. George's in New York City.
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Welcome back. We are now returning to our discussion with the Reverend Jacob Smith rector of the historic Episcopal parish of Calvary st. George's in New York City. We are discussing a born-again Episcopalian if you'd like to join us.
Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Before we move on to some of the substance of the life and teachings of Bishop Charles Pettit McIlvaine. We have a couple of more listeners that I'd like to address here.
We have. Let's see Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania. Who says you mentioned earlier about? The book of common prayer teaching that marriage is only to be the husband of. The marriage is only between a husband and one wife.
I was hoping that you would perhaps view the scriptures as a more primary source of Teaching that prohibits not only homosexuality but sex outside of marriage. Can you comment?
Well, absolutely, I agree with you. I think the scripture is the foundation and that would be the ultimate appeal. I was just addressing specifically the question in regards to the Episcopal Church and and And my thoughts on that and as I said, and I said and I appealed to it in my answer.
We begin in Genesis with the creation of man and woman both created in the image of God man and woman and then Brought together as one flesh. Throughout the scriptures Israel is referred to as the bride and God is referred to as the bridegroom which becomes the foundation and Christ then takes this and the church took this the approach to.
To the description of marriage between a man and a woman as a reflection of Christ and his love for the church and And as it says and in our prayer book, holy scripture commended to be honored by all people.
So, I mean I ultimately would appeal to the scriptures and I do appeal to the scriptures. It just was in the context of that particular question, right. And because.
Therefore Episcopalians and Anglicans today Who endorse and celebrate homosexuality are not only violating the scriptures which is primarily the sin Involved in accepting that but they are also even violating historic Episcopalian ism and Anglican ism.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, thank you Arnie and keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and spreading the word in Perry County, Pennsylvania and Beyond. Let's see. We. I'll take one more for now before we move on. John and Bangor, Maine says.
Can you? Describe. What is the difference between? Episcopalian ism and Anglican ism. If any. Well, it's a it's a it's a.
It's a use of words. So Anglican ism basic. I mean the the short answer is is that Anglican ism? basically describes Christianity that Came out of kind of England, you know, it's like that's that's the short of it.
However. And as the as the church spread, you know, the the English Church spread so did. So did Anglican ism how I think however, I think it's important to make the distinction that Anglican ism today doesn't rest necessarily mean English.
The majority of Anglicans actually live on the continent of Africa are Under the age of 28 and are women. It is it's an extremely now diverse communion and the English actually make up a small my a small small minority in it, but Anglican ism came to the United States and And and it settled in Virginia and in parts of New England.
And however after the Revolutionary War Anglican ism wasn't a wasn't necessarily a title you wanted to have especially because I'm at the time The church and the state were so intertwined. And so, you know, I'm actually and this was something that McElveen actually had to write a number of essays about in the defense of Episcopalian.
And so basically let me just back up but but when after the Revolutionary War, you know The the clergy were all called back to England and there were a few there were a few who remained and eventually they had to the first Bishop Samuel Seabury had appealed to Scotland to to become ordained and Episcopal really is more of a definition of our form of church governance we are got we have bishops and the threefold ministry of that and so There's very there's very little difference if any between Anglican ism and Episcopalian ism.
However in recent days, you know, there have been splits here in the United States over certain doctrinal issues and and so you'll hear folks trying to separate themselves from the Episcopal Church by referring to themselves as Anglican today and so but um, but in its core in its core and When you don't have sinners involved, they're one in the same and so but this was one of the things that actually McElveen had to appeal to in some of his early essays when he was the Bishop of Ohio because he was taking on revivalism and and a lot of people accused McElveen of not Episcopalianism not being really an American Expression of any form of Christianity and had no role in American Christianity, you know, it was no Bishop and and in this country and and McElveen had to make an appeal that this this expression of Christianity is as American as anything else.
Well, what's.
Social issues was McElveen in the 19th century grappling with in regard to the deterioration of American Christianity, I'm sure That even the rationalists of his day would be horrified by seeing the developments so far to the left today That either border on or have leaped far over over the demarcation point of apostasy.
What were the things that he was dealing with. Socially. Big thing that McElveen?
Had to tackle was with slavery and the issue of slavery in the United States, he was Bishop of Ohio and held a lot of influence in the 1860s right at the the eve of the Civil War and what had happened was so McElveen initially.
Was.
Was was he didn't come out in the open and talk about slavery? He kind of focused on gospel preaching and he was always against it but what had happened was that um at a previous General Convention, basically there was an agreement between the Evangelical Party in the Episcopal Church and the high church party that The evangelicals would focus on global missions and the high church party would focus on missions to miss domestically.
Now this was all fine and game fun and games until all of a sudden the evangelicals realized that we're funding essentially missions, we don't 100 agree with and That are actually we're losing the cause and all of a sudden they realized that The evangelical presence in the Episcopal Church was on the small end out of all of the new diocese in the 1860s there were several but only really, Iowa and Nebraska remained evangelical all the rest like in Wisconsin and Minnesota and Michigan all went to to high churchmen and So but this was a result because a lot of the evangelicals had focused on mission elsewhere in Brazil Japan and places like that the low church went there.
But uh, so what one of the things that happened was is that so the issue of slavery you had a number of evangelicals in the south including one of One of the McElveen's converts when he led a revival at West Point called a Leonidas Polk Who later became the Bishop of Louisiana?
And so McElveen was a was a little hesitant to speak on the issue of slavery. However, it wasn't until He was good friends with Stephen King and so McElveen essentially supported initially Repatriotism Repatriotism and sending slaves back to Africa and Supporting a Liberia and places like that.
But um and as Stephen King actually was as well, but however Dudley King Dudley King Stephen's son said that there can be no compromise on this issue. You know, we've already compromised a lot on the high church stuff and it's watered down the church we cannot compromise on slavery at all and And Dudley was later killed in a very tragic accident in Philadelphia where he was maimed and Bled to death and his dying words were stand up stand up for Jesus which inspired that great hymn but um, but Stephen King at st. George's inspired by the passion of his son became an ardent Abolitionist and and that's where him and McElveen initially parted ways.
However, McElveen went on a trip to England right before the Civil War where he met the abolitionist there including William Wilberforce and some of the people in the Clapton second was deeply influenced by this and came back and said we can't compromise on this either and actually parted parted briefly ways with with Bishop Polk of Louisiana and and Was ultimately sent by the United States to visit England in order to deter England from Recognizing the Confederate States of America.
So he was sent by Abraham Lincoln as a delegation to deter England from recognizing the Confederate States and he really ultimately took that on and said that um, All men and this included black and white had been made free in Christ and he himself later Became an ardent abolitionist and helped paved the way for many of the slaves to make their way up into Ohio and settle there.
Praise God. And What do you think I mean people. I've met a lot of Christians. They only want to read contemporary Authors and I'm not here to say that that is a total waste of time because there are many Contemporary authors that are brilliant that are biblically faithful that are speaking to Relevant issues that we face in our day and age.
But many are overlooking Gems, I mean treasures from history Including the writings of the likes of Bishop Charles Pettit McElveen. What can you? instill upon our listeners today. Of why you think they should pick up a book by or about Charles Pettit McElveen.
Well, I think three reasons. I think Charles Pettit McElveen Alism and if we had another hour, I would love to go into that. He went to. He went to Ohio and a lot of people think he Dropped his evangelicalism and for a brief moment reverted to high churchism.
While he was the Bishop of Ohio because he appealed to the the Study the steadiness of the Episcopal Church in its prayer book and liturgy. However, what he didn't he didn't abandon his evangelicalism.
He was making an appeal to a sound doctrine because we went out to Ohio. I mean the roots of any ism was just all over the place and you had the Campbellites and you had these revivals where you know beginning with much earlier Cain Ridge but I mean they just became more and more like rock concerts and.
The joke was is that actually more people were conceived at some of these revivals than were actually saved.
That's that's the first one for me. Well, I kind of kind of reminds me of your parents on the hippie commune or the Native Reservation Native American.
Well, they were married but I Think what we can learn is is that I think we see a real trend in American Christianity once again to appeal to emotionalism and appeal to my feelings and just me and Me and my my Jesus and you know, and my Jesus lets me kind of do whatever I want.
And what we learned from McIlvaine is The no actually, there is one God and he's revealed himself in Jesus Christ and he speaks outside of you and by speaking outside of you, he speaks to the deepest parts of you and Calls you to repent and believe his gospel.
So I think I think it's important to Read older books and read people like McIlvaine because they remind us that Emotionalism is nothing new but emotionalism ultimately leaves people empty and allows them to be their own God.
I think the other thing that reason why to read McIlvaine is because he he he appeals to the importance of the reformers and the importance of the doctrine of justification by grace alone and how that Doctrine as and he quotes in his great work that Oxford did divinity compared with that of the Romanian Anglican churches he quotes that great quote by Luther by by saying that the doctrine of Justification is the doctrine by which the church stands and falls and so this is something that we as Christians need to cling to and we cannot compromise on at all in our preaching and our teaching and Then finally, I think why we should read is because rationalism is once again sweeping the church Across the board whether you are a Baptist whether you're an Episcopalian whether you're non-denominational you cannot escape it today.
What McIlvaine does is he appeals in his teachings to the historicity of the faith that actually there was a man named Jesus? He came into the world made the claim that he was God died and on the third day rose again for our sins and that this is real history and It is a fact and that is what we think that McIlvaine speaks to all the problems that continue to be set the church all the heresies that continue to set the church and calls us back to Focusing on our on our true north and that is Christ in him crucified for the sins of the world.
Amen. We have an anonymous listener who says Who asks what can you tell us about the Reformed Episcopal denomination? I have met and conversed with some very theologically sound and Calvinistic members of not only the clergy but also of congregations under that denomination.
But I've also been dismayed by some Pastors that I have interacted with that seem to have caved in to the Romish wing of Episcopalianism. Which from my understanding of history is the very reason the Reformed Episcopal denomination began to fight against?
Tractarian and Romish tendencies within Episcopalianism. Can you please comment? And that's that's actually an interesting question because as you may remember, I don't know if you remember this Jacob, but I have a very big place in my heart for the Episcopal Church, even though I'm a Reformed Baptist because.
My.
Father's side of the family came from Episcopalianism they originally were Baptists in Scandinavia in the 19th century and earlier but through marriage became Episcopalians and I was very saddened when one of my uncle's one of my late uncle's Who was an Episcopalian, but he was very Conservative I don't know really how biblically knowledgeable he was but he was a man of who basically adhered to biblical morality for certain and he was dismayed and Disgusted by liberalism Taking over the Episcopal Church, and I was trying to find him a biblically sound Episcopal Church near him in Washington State and I had a conversation with a Reformed Episcopal minister Trying to locate such a congregation and this by the way that that minister that I was conversing with was not from Washington State.
So I don't want people to start Thinking that it was a certain minister in Washington State that I'm talking about. This man this is where this Reformed Episcopal Church minister Who called himself father so-and-so?
He recoiled in disgust from what I was saying because I told him that I did not want my uncle to Become a member of an Anglo Catholic Episcopal Church and He called me a moron and he said to me I have more in common with my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters than I have with you.
Which made me made it clear to me that this man didn't even believe the gospel but so That just that is just to give my own Personal impact upon this discussion that the listener brought up not only with the Reformed Episcopal Church but even if you want to broaden the the.
The question is what do you do when you can't find a biblically faithful or even historically accurate? Episcopalian or Anglican Church near where you live.
Gosh well, you know, I've met a few Reformed Episcopal clergy in my day around here and I have found them to be very faithful men and true to the 39 articles and true to their prayer book that was one of the Kind of the issues George David Cummins, who was the assistant bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Kentucky the Reformed Episcopal Bishop He left over what he saw especially as heirs in the prayer book there was a big conversation that was coming out of the Evangelical Episcopal Church and weighing of the church in the 1860s on prayer book revision and so and that was specifically over baptismal regeneration.
I Think that I think though I've seen some biblically faithful men there. And so I don't want to say anything negative about about them. So but what I do want to say is that if you can't find you know what you need to do is you need to find a church where the Word of God is rightly preached and The and the sacraments are rightly administered.
I think we need to get beyond kind of some this this kind of Denominationalism and I'm an Episcopalian and you know, I mean, I you know, I love the Episcopal Church. I love the Anglicanism. But ultimately what you need to do is get yourself in a gospel church where you hear the blood of Christ in the atoning Sacrifice of Jesus for your sins day in and day out and the sacraments are rightly administered according to that church's tradition and And you won't go wrong but to say like oh, I can only go to Episcopal Church where there's nothing left for me is crazy.
What you need to do is what the what the United States and what the world needs is not more Episcopalians. What it doesn't need is more Baptist. What it needs is more gospel focused Christianity. Amen, and and so that's what I would say and that's and that's why I call you brother Chris is because we are in this for The gospel and the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins because that's what the world needs to hear for without it.
It dies and perishes.
Amen, I agree with you 100 by the way. The only reason I was looking for a biblically faithful Episcopal Church was because I believed that my uncle would more likely visit such a church than one that left much more to mystery and apprehension and anxiety.
If you follow me.
Was our listener correct to say though that they were formed. Episcopal Church began as a protest against Romish tendencies within the Episcopal Church.
Absolute absolutely, I was against that and some of the some of the ideas especially in the prayer book there was and in the prayer book at the time and it's still there, but an implication that that a child is regenerate when they are baptized and of course the The evangelical party especially at their seminaries Such as Kenyon and Bexley Hall, which was what McIlvaine founded and and VTS appealed to interpret.
Interpret that part of the prayer book through the lens of the 39 articles specifically appealing to article 27 Which talks about baptism and so? But yes, there was a move to say we need to make this perfectly clear.
The Reformation in England didn't go far enough and we need to be the ones to finish it. And of course, there was a group that said no stop it. And and so there were some folks that got frustrated and left.
And so yeah, it was over over those ten. Yes, and by the way, I can confirm with my own conversations or from my own conversations with Reformed Episcopal ministers who are Biblically faithful that there is a sad trend within that denomination where they are accepting more Oxford movement types of men into the clergy.
And they are and the ones that are more clearly Protestant are not very happy about that. So I'm just talking about from my own conversations and personal experiences with some re folks. Even the my landlady was raised in the Reformed Episcopal Church and her father was a Reformed Episcopal minister.
And she is not happy with a lot of what she sees. And of course folks if you're listening from the Reformed Episcopal Church I'm not broad brushing or condemning your denomination at all. I'm just saying that from my own experience I know what is an element there which obviously came to Its worst expression when I had one of the RE ministers called me a moron.
Now a lot of other people have called me moron, but this was specifically because I was Telling him that I did not want my uncle to attend a Romish Church but if you could Jacob in about three and a half minutes.
Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today. Well, as you say.
You may be a great sinner, but Jesus is a greater Savior, you know, that is. That is the heart of the gospel I'd love and this is one of the great Teachings that come out of our prayer book. It's called the comfortable words.
It's a series of passages from scripture which build upon each other which inform why We can have peace with God and peace with our neighborhood. It says here the Word of God to all who truly turn unto him Come unto me all you that are heavy laden and I will refresh you.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son to the end that all who believe in him Shall not perish but have everlasting life. This is a true thing and it's worthy of all people to be received that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners and If any person sin, we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.
And he's not he's not only the perfect offering for our sins for the sins of the whole world. It's upon those gospel promises that we have peace with God and finally through that peace with one another and so I Pray that people would hear the gospel and believe the gospel and rest on the gospel because amen.
Amen. And by the way Reverend Jacob I just got Contacted by one of our listeners who I have had as a guest on my program in the past. I don't know if you're familiar with David old who is a Sydney, Australia.
Anglican. Oh, yeah, I see him all the time on the internet and.
Watching from time to time on a Anglican TV. Okay. Yeah. Well he has expressed interest in also Returning to iron sharpens iron radio. So I just wanted to give a shout out to David old. I look forward to having you back brother and I'd love for you to to meet face to face at some point.
Yeah.
Well, I don't know what I'm going to Sydney, but if he's ever flying through, New York.
Maybe he will be. You never know. Absolutely, well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information before we run out of time. I know that the website for the parish of Calvary st. George's in New York City is Calvary st George's org Calvary st. George's org and st is abbreviated st Calvary st. George's org.
Do you have any other contact information that you care to give?
Yeah, if people want to get learn more about us they can also email us at info at Cal st G dot o RG and we have worship services at st George's at 830 and 10 and At Calvary at 11 and we have a an even song service at 5 p .m Every Sunday, and so if you're in the city of New York, we'd love to have you.
Now is there a difference in the manner in which you worship at those two locations is one more of a high church and one More of a low or you are you universally low church over at the parish?
Calvary is more of a high church. That's been its tradition. But the gospel is preached Sunday after Sunday and and. And so but the message is the exact same and the worship is biblical. Amen.
Well, also don't forget that you can order the book that we have been referring to a born-again Episcopalian The event the evangelical witness of Charles Pettit McIlvaine. This is written by Thomas Garrett Isham and if Thomas is listening we would love to have you also join us on iron sharpens iron radio as a guests at some point and You could get that book at solid-ground-books .com.
Solid-ground-books .com where you can also get books by Stephen H Ting. T is in Thomas Yng who we mentioned earlier who is the founding rector of st George's Episcopal Church where my guest Jacob Smith is currently the rector.
Thank you so much Jacob. I hope this is just the beginning of many more interviews with you and I look forward to your return very soon to iron sharpens iron radio.
Thank you very much Chris. It was a pleasure being here with you and God bless you in your ministry.
I hope that everyone listening always remembers for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are. A sinner.