March 13, 2018 Show with Jacob Smith on “A Born Again Episcopalian”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnton your host of iron sharpens iron radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 13th day of March 2018.

I'm so delighted to have a Returning guest on iron sharpens iron radio that has not been on the program For quite some time, in fact, he the last time he was a guest on iron sharpens iron radio he was on the old Program the original iron sharpens iron radio that was broadcasting out of WNYG and WGBB radio in Babylon Long Island, New York, this is his first Appearance on iron sharpens iron radio as far as the all-new version of it broadcasting out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania and being live streamed globally via first love radio in Dublin, California.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio the Reverend Jacob Smith rector of the historic Episcopal Parish of Calvary st. George's in New York City. It's great to have you back.

It's a real pleasure to be on and back with you Chris and.

Babylon was a great place, but I'm glad to see you've been delivered from it. I.

Do have fond memories of you. Yeah, I'm the train out to Long Island and we'd usually have lunch before you came to the studio and Those were some fond memories and some great interviews not only with you as my guest But you were also my co-host when we interviewed Dr. Ashley.

No, and I believe I had you on with your your colleague at Mockingbird ministries. That's right, and so we had we had some Excellent interviews back then and I'm very confident today will be one of them on the all-new iron sharpens iron radio.

The Testimony of a Born-Again Episcopalian

Yeah. Well before we go into the theme of born-again Episcopalian, which is actually being motivated or inspired by the biography of Charles Pettit Mickelveen that was written by Thomas Garrett Isham and Before we get into that theme itself which will be much broader than just the biography of Mickelveen, but the the whole concept and the Phenomena and the historic reality of born-again Episcopalians because people today See that as an oxymoronic term very often perhaps even within the Episcopalian Communion, but We will get to that in a moment.

But I do want since this is your first time on The new iron sharpens iron radio and we have a lot of new listeners that we didn't have before. I'd like you to give Something of your testimony of your religious upbringing.

When you realize that you truly did love the Lord Jesus Christ and in fact Realized at some point that you were given a call by God to Become a rector yourself, but tell us about that whole story.

Yeah, well, um, we uh born on the Navajo Reservation up in the four corners and in in Monument Valley and my parents weren't missionaries as a lot of people ask. They were hippies and had gone out there to try and change the world and.

However, when I reached about nine kind of the adventure ended and we moved to. We moved to the southwest corner of Arizona a town called Yuma and.

There.

My family got involved in a in an evangelical Episcopal Church called st. Paul's Episcopal Church at the time it's gone through a split and and. But it still still retains much of its evangelical nature today.

But growing up, I'd you know, I didn't know any other Episcopal Church. But the evangelical kind of strain of Anglicanism. J. I Packer was our rector's professor for when he was in seminary there was this great relationship and Packer would come through and teach at our church and just.

It was a really gospel focused church. However, kind of one of those things you don't really know what you have in the midst of it and I Went to when I graduated from high school. I spent a year in Finland where My host family's father the like grand the father of my host father was a state Lutheran minister in the Church of Finland and basically while I was there you we had a couple of theological conversations and my theology being 18 and you know, I would have said I was a Christian but was held together with nothing more than bubblegum and chicken wire and it slowly kind of got knocked down by Rationalism.

When I came back, I really didn't know what I believed or why I believed it wasn't interested in going to church and.

And when.

When I was in college, I had reconnected with some old friends who had gotten involved in the campus ministry and I went with them to a Revival meeting and and at this revival meeting at the University of Arizona.

I came forward and and Accepted Christ and I was crying and I was so moved by the by the preaching of the gospel and Joined a fellowship group. However in this kind of group. This was basically the last time I ever heard the gospel in that group from then on it was about are you?

Experiencing and are you feeling Jesus and it was all about feelings and I remember calling the rector of my church back in Yuma, Arizona and saying, you know, I just don't really feel this and He said something to me.

His name is Tom Phillips. And he said something to me that changed the way I thought about Christianity completely and he said Jacob It doesn't matter if you're feeling it right now. What matters is that it's true and.

And that blew my mind and And that became if you will by the power of the Holy Spirit the enabling word to rest my life not on how I was feeling at the moment, but But on the unchangeable truth of the fact that Jesus actually broke into history.

Made the claim to be God died for my sins and on the third day rose for my justification. And now in the midst of my like My feelings and ups and downs of life is at the right hand of the Father interceding for me and so this became Everything to me and it was in college that I heard the the call to ministry.

I eventually left that that group and got involved in inner varsity Christian fellowship and got involved in a church and then when I graduated from. When I graduated from the University of Arizona I went on to be a youth minister at my home church in Yuma, Arizona.

For three years where I was then sponsored by the Bishop of San Diego at the time Geffen Hughes who was an Orthodox believer to to go to seminary and they sent me to Trinity School for ministry. Which is in Ambridge, Pennsylvania, which is the evangelical?

Anglican Episcopal Seminary in the United States and it was there that I Really started studying for myself for the first time the 39 articles and the English Reformers and Martin Luther and Really got into biblical theology and that you know, the Bible isn't a yearbook where you look for yourself first.

You hear that so often I mean people are looking for themselves in the Bible, where are you David? You know, I guarantee you there'll be sermons this year on you know. What do you need to do to get out of the tomb of your life and that's not what the Bible is about.

It's not about a yearbook and you looking for yourself. It's about Christ as Luther said it is the manger wherein Christ is laid and That began to shape everything in my life and I began to realize that the gospel was even for Christians.

Not just for non-christians to lure them in but to but for Christians as well as a sustaining part of their life. I graduated from college some seminary. I Was called to New York City where I served and this was back in 2006 as the assist as the curate here at Calvary st. George's and Calvary st George's is here in New York right in the Union Square Gramercy Park area.

It's actually two churches that were merged in the 70s. It's Calvary which is on Park and 21st. Which is known in a lot of places as one of the founding places of alcoholics anonymous with Sam Shoemaker.

And then there's st. George's the great historic evangelical Church of the Episcopal Church.

In the.

1800s however, it had gone through. It had gone through a real it. Let's just say it had landed in a real ditch theologically for a long time and.

The.

The rector in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s the one who called me had really worked to bring about a renewal in the church and bring it back to its gospel roots and and they had begun to see a real transformation there and then he retired and we had Greg Brewer serve as our as our rector who's now the Bishop of Central, Florida and.

And then after he was called to be the bishop I was if you will the last man standing and. And so the Bishop then of New York said well, listen, Jake, you're welcome to stay for three years. But after that, you've got to go.

My wife and I like we you know, we received it and we said well this gives us the freedom to take some real risks and so we just went wholehearted preached preached the unapologetic gospel and By God's grace and through the power of the Spirit and the means by which he's given the church the the parish began to grow and in 2012 we had about a hundred and eighty at our Easter Sunday service and last year we had over 800 at our Easter Sunday, sir.

Wow, and yeah, and now it's not to say that I don't want to see the gospel as a means to an end. But it is just a God's faithfulness to us and with those results and us willing on being to take on another Episcopal church that's struggling st. Anne's for the death.

We're providing them oversight. The bishops that I'll make you director and our hope is that it won't just stop with st Anne's but we'll begin to move on and help out other churches as well and Basically replant them with with the great classic doctrines of the Anglican Reformation.

Stephen Tying, St. George’s, and Evangelical Anglican Heritage

Well, praise God I am so happy to hear what is developing there because as you may remember you and I have An interesting story as to how we met and it involves Stephen Ting the 19th century low church Calvinist pastor of st. George's Episcopal Church in New York City and my dear friend who is also my very first pastor after my rebirth Mike Adosh of solid ground Christian books.

He brought back into print Stephen Ting's book the Christian pastor the office and duty of the gospel minister and so when I heard it that Ting after reading this book, I fell in love with this book and fell in love with Ting himself and I began to find out Well, what what is this church in New York City like today?

Because of the fact that Stephen Ting was long gone obviously being a 19th century hero of the faith and I found out that you were there. In fact the secretary I think specifically Connected me to you, even though you were not the rector at the time.

Because of your love for Stephen Ting your mutual love for Stephen Ting yeah, and I remember it that's the reason why you even accepted a An invitation to serve on the ministerial team there at st. George's was because of the connection historically with Stephen Ting.

Absolutely. Yeah, he was a great evangelical preacher in the Episcopal Church and a great leader of the abolitionist movement here in New York and also of the American Bible Society and putting the word first and He followed another great evangelical named James Milner who I hope more people will learn about.

But yeah, Stephen Ting is why I came and actually I make all of my staff now read that book at least once a year.

Well praise God. Yeah, and by the way, just to let our listeners know if you'd like to get that book You can go to solid-ground-books .com solid-ground-books .com and if you type T-y-n-g in the search engine Just like the old orange drink tang but replace an a with the Y.

You will get a list of several books more than several books actually that Ting either wrote himself or that Ting contributed to and that's solid-ground-books .com and What a blessing He is to read and many people outside of the Episcopal Church May be surprised how Ting wrote in a fashion that He he writes simply as a gospel minister.

You would not you would not necessarily Recognize the fact that he was Episcopalian or Presbyterian or Baptist. He writes as a gospel minister.

Right. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the one of the defining characteristics of a lot of the 19th century Evangelical Episcopalians is that you know, they're they're writing is is is broad. It's not necessarily denominationally In like, you know focused because in the sense that they weren't even liked by their denomination even then and So but uh, and they had a real heart and passion for the whole church.

And I also thank you so much. I don't know if you remember it, but you gave me a guided tour of The church and what to me it was just such a blessed time because of my love for Ting and Very remarkable because most people I'm assuming Unless perhaps they are Episcopalians themselves, but those outside of Episcopalianism might wrongly conclude that all Episcopal churches are Very ornate very much like Roman Catholic churches and of course, there are many that that do resemble Roman Catholic churches and are very ornate with Statuary and icons and all kinds of things.

But Ting who from what I remember you telling me he he actually designed st. George's if I'm right and With in a very purposefully simple manner that nothing would distract from the pulpit Where the sermon where the gospel was being proclaimed?

Yeah, that's absolutely right. He Specifically designed it not in the Gothic tradition Which is even what McElveen's church is. McElveen's church is designed in he designed it in the Romanesque tradition and it's actually a based on a on the Ludwig Kirch in Munich and so but the idea was is that Amidst the trials and tribulations of the world.

Here is your safety and when you go in It's shaped almost like a barn and the acoustics are incredible. And that's right. He specifically said I do not want any columns in this church. That in that would that would in any way impede the preaching of the gospel.

I mean, it's actually interesting to a lot of people don't know this but the the same person who designed st George's Church Leopold edits designed the state capitol building here in New York in New York State and Albany and so but it it is a stunning piece of architecture filled with a Lot of symbolism that points to in it in its plainness points to the importance of the preached word.

So in other words doing the lack of columns, so in other words ting guided the architect. He wasn't the architect himself.

Yeah, he guided the architect. I mean essentially. Yeah you I mean the architect provided the math. But he provided the theology.

Right, and the other thing that was interesting is that the Lord's table? Is a very simple table. It is not an ornate table that you would find in many not only Roman Catholic churches, but Lutheran churches and high Episcopal churches and even in some Baptist churches if they are of a wealthier stripe of Baptists in the neighborhoods where they are, but it's a very simple table and There is no cross on the wall behind The the pulpit as many Episcopal churches and other churches have and even Baptist churches.

Not even a barren cross. And I remember you telling me that ting only had the Ten Commandments and the Apostles Creed on banners on the wall behind him and you also told me the horrifying story of how one of the Liberal Rectors there years ago before you arrived tore Those down and threw them in the garbage.

Yeah, that was Carl Ryland and he he removed the two tablets of the law and the Apostles Creed off of the off of the From behind the wall and said he removed them and said I have officially removed all superstition from st. George's Church, and so he was very much a man of Rationalism and.

But I'm pleased to say that that no longer is the dominant or exists at st. George's anymore. Yeah, praise God.

Well, yeah, I am. I'm so happy that you are there. It's also So pleasing to me that you share ting's Calvinism and you share ting's adherence and Love for the 39 articles of religion. If you could comment on that.

The 39 Articles, Confessional Anglicanism, and the Gospel for Christians

Yeah, I think there's um There's a real trend in. Well, not only in the Episcopal Church, but I hear it in a lot of my friends in Anglican circles as well the notion that somehow Anglicanism is not a confessional church and.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Our confession is the 39 articles and it is clearly a reformed confession and and what it does is that it is it is generous in its confession and that it It it places the borders I think in Christian freedom and Liberty denying the heirs of the radical Anabaptists on the far left at the time and the heirs of Rome on the far right on the other and.

And so it is a it is clearly a reformed confession and one that I think should be the standard of every Anglican in this world. If you're not into the 39 articles. You know, maybe you should find another church.

And.

Well, let's tell us about you becoming the rector there because as I said, I When I first met you and I'm with the Several times that I had you on as a guest on iron sharpens iron radio when we were broadcasting out of Long Island.

You were not yet the rector you had some ministerial position there. Perhaps you could tell us what that was. But tell us about how the journey that you tell us about the journey that you had From arriving there to the point of becoming rector.

Yeah. Well, so like I said, I arrived in.

2006 and I was called to be what's called the curate and that's just a fancy old word for the cure of souls or the low man on the totem pole and so and I was the assistant and I was essentially in charge of Sunday school and and you know Christian education and.

And what happened was in these with these two churches because there's two churches the pulpit needed to be filled and so I Filled the pulpit for a little bit at st. George's, but then was moved over to Calvary.

Where? We started preaching regularly and and things really seemed to take off and we had a great clergy team at the time on the leadership of Tom Pike and and. And then he retired and in 2008 and then in 2009 the parish then called Greg Brewer who came from Philadelphia and you know, the church continued to move forward in a traditional Orthodox direction.

I would say at the time it was probably a little more charismatic than I am and but it continued to move in a in a creedal direction and and one that was a prayer book and focused and focused on Christ.

And then.

In 2012 the rector then was called to be the Bishop of Central, Florida and And and he so he went and I was if you will the last person standing now. There had been some like market crashes during the 2008 -2009 time and the church just couldn't go right into a search right away.

And and so I was asked to kind of stay and settle the boat and after That first year I was told well as the tradition goes. You only get a three years here Jake and then you have to go. There's a tradition kind of in the Episcopal Church not to promote from within.

You know, there's goods and bads to it. You know that the good side is is that it prevents the curate from leading a coup. The bad is is that sometimes, you know You have real stability in that and to to break that up can cause Uncertainty in a church and they'll lead to decline in all sorts of areas.

So but I was told I had only three years and that was actually probably a really good thing because It just kind of gave me the freedom to Because I was going so anyway, so it gave me the real freedom to Hammer home the doctrines of grace and to teach the 39 articles and to be Unabashedly low church and and not worry about it and Come to find out really I mean a lot of people especially families find that appealing, you know.

A reverend service without a lot of trappings and and so and especially at st George's we're seeing a real growth in that in our family ministry with people at from Spytown and Peter Cooper village, which are the housing complexes just the north of the East Village and so.

So but in a tooth have a great relationship with the Bishop of New York. We're friendly, but he sat down and talked with me and said, you know, Jake There's another church called st. Anne's for the deaf and they meet in our basement.

They're the oldest deaf congregation in New York City and one of the oldest deaf churches in the country and he said they really need pastoral oversight and some pastoral leadership and would you be willing to give it and I said, of course and.

And he said didn't we need to make you the rector so you can have the authority To begin to bring the whole parish on board and make changes there as well. And so he graciously made me the rector and I was instituted as the rector in 2017 of January, so I've been the rector now officially for just over just just over a year and and Things continue to go.

Well, it's it's not an easy position. You're no longer kind of the cool brother older brother who you know, you can say hey, you know. You know longer the cool older brother who doesn't have to make the decisions is the curate.

So, you know, there's a permanence here now and so I have to be wise in a lot of my decision-making however, that doesn't cause me to shy away at all from the preaching of the gospel, but you know, just there there's a there's a wisdom that needs to come now with the permanence of this as we continue to steer the ship and witness to Christ and him crucified and and so and so that permanence is you know as a guy who kind of.

You know, I find it I find it I find it exciting but at the same time the ideas of moving on are now done and so we see ourselves here until we basically die. Unless God has other plans.

Well, I look forward to having fellowship with you. Hopefully the next time I visit, New York because I always enjoy your fellowship and hopefully that will Be in the providence of God very soon. I think I forgot to give our email address for questions for our listeners earlier.

I apologize for that, but our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris ar n z n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Perhaps you have a pastoral question of Reverend Jacob Smith or perhaps you are in an Episcopalian Church, and you are very uncomfortable there because it has no resemblance to what our guest Jacob Smith has described or whatever the case may be.

Perhaps you're an Episcopal rector yourself and you're a lot more biblically minded than the Denomination worldwide or whatever the case is that would lend you to want to remain anonymous. We will grant your Risk your wishes in that regard, but other than it being a personal and private matter please give us your first name city and state and Country of residence at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. We are going to our first break now. But we'll be back shortly with the Reverend Jacob Smith and our theme a born-again Episcopalian tired of bop store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

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That's a very important thing to do not only patronize their advertisers, but tell them where you heard about them. Well, we are back to our discussion with the Reverend Jacob Smith My old friend from the old iron sharpens iron radio program.

He is rector of the parish of Calvary st. George's in New York City. And we are discussing a born-again Episcopalian not only the specific biography that was written by Thomas Garrett Isham of Charles Pettit McElveen, but also the general theme of Being a born-again Episcopalian if you'd like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and we have some of you waiting to ask a question. But before I go to them, I just wanted to get a little bit more background. As far as our theme is concerned from you pastor Jacob.

What so captured your attention? About a bishop Charles Pettit McElveen, and I hope I'm pronouncing his last name correctly. I think you might have said Meikle vine before. Is that the correct way? I think I think we're both correct.

Well, of course he's not around to correct either one of us but what let me before I even have you answer that I'll just read something.

About.

Meikle vein or vine. From the author of the biography Thomas Garrett Isham. He says Charles Pettit McElveen who lived from 1799 to 1873. Embodied the evangelical creed of the 19th century. A clear-thinking intellectually rigorous Episcopalian he exemplified the deep emotional currents of revival and rebirth of the conviction of sin of the need to be born again into new life an Aristocrat by birth and bearing a bishop by consecration of the Episcopal Church.

He knew himself to be a common sinner in God's sight as much in need of rescue as the folk to whom he ministered. And that's from the preface written by Thomas Garrett Isham of this biography called a born-again Episcopalian.

But what what how did you first hear about Bishop McElveen and and what captured your attention. And your fascination about this man.

Well, I think I first heard about a McElveen in a seminary as well around the same time as I had heard about Stephen King. They were colleagues and Very good friends. They had a couple of divisions on a few critical issues, but They but so I heard about him during that time and and that was basically about it.

I put him on the back burner However, just in this last year and I actually picked up the book from us From a solid ground Christian books. I picked up the book. I actually began reading the the history of the 19th century evangelicalism standing against the whirlwind and and and McElveen features heavily in that book and so and I wanted to learn more about this man because I Think you know much of American Christianity looks very similar to 19th century American Christianity as well, you know.

You have a revivalism once again kind of sweeping sweeping a lot of American Christianity.

With.

You know churches like Hillsong and some of these big like kind of charismatic churches. And so your revival isn't sweeping the land on one level. You have a lot of evangelicals kind of on now no longer on the Canterbury trails they used to say but on the Roman Trail and.

And you or joining the Eastern Orthodox Church? And then also, you know your rationalism is kind of sweeping across Christianity again and and taking hold of a lot of a prominent evangelical mainline churches were 20 years ago nobody would have ever thought that would have been to the case and.

So I'm just wanting to be a student of history and and looking into it I you know, I thought that there could be definitely lessons learned there from a man who indeed is as the book articulates. I mean he walked in the presence of Kings and Aristocrats, but most importantly saw himself as a sinner in need of saving and and saw that as his message.

From the beginning of his ministry when he was converted at Princeton to the very end of it when he died. And so I felt like that that he has something to say to the church. Once again, I think across the board.

Charles Pettit McIlvaine and the Revival at Princeton

Yeah, well, we praise God that solid grand Christian books has has published this biography. Now I Understand that there was a revival occurring in Princeton when Mickelveen or Mickelveen Believed he was truly born again.

Am I correct on that? Yeah, that's absolutely right.

However, it wasn't It wasn't a revival like that was happening out in in Kentucky and in in rural parts of New England in New York. It was it was a it was a it was much different. I mean it was it was in it was in Princeton.