Response to Sheikh Awal (Part 1) from the Dividing Line

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May 19, 2010

Here is a portion of the Dividing Line where I began responding to the opening statement of Sheikh Awal in a debate from 2009.

Response to Sheik Awal, Part 2

00:10: So, here is his opening statement. I'm going to be stopping and starting, responding as necessary to what he had to say.
00:23: Truth have come and falsehood have perished. Anytime truth comes, falsehood is bound by nature to perish.
00:36: Mr. Chairman, respected guests and honorable speaker, Mr. Lopez, between myself and Pastor Lopez, God Almighty is the witness that Brother Lopez has stood here for 30 minutes and he never solved the issue.
00:54: The issue was salvation through the Quran or salvation through the
00:59: Bible, which as you can see, you bear witness that he never taught the subject. So, I have already computed what
01:07: I'm going to say in my head already. But because of what he said, I have rechanneled what
01:13: I'm going to be speaking. So, I'm going to be speaking on salvation through the Bible and the Quran as I go, both, inshallah.
01:21: Where do I begin? From the beginning. You see, the concept of salvation in Christendom is actually based on the fact that Jesus Christ died for the sin of mankind.
01:31: So, I remember in the Bible, in the book of Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 14,
01:37: Paul said, if Christ did not die or if Christ did not rise from the dead, our salvation, our preaching is vain and our faith is vain.
01:54: That means Christ has to die. If he did not die, our preaching is vain, is garbage, and our faith, our religion is also garbage, according to Paul.
02:05: So, the concept of Christendom is for Jesus Christ to die. Very briefly, and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is in vain.
02:15: The term there is kene, it does not mean garbage. He goes on to say, moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God because we testified against God that he raised
02:25: Christ, whom he did not raise, if, in fact, the dead are not raised. This is in context, and I struggle,
02:32: Sheikh Awal very frequently does not seem to take context into consideration in his interpretation of the
02:37: Bible, and this will come out very clearly because what he's starting here is an argument that the
02:44: Bible itself says that Jesus did not die upon the cross, therefore was not buried, did not rise again the third day.
02:53: Every citation he's going to use, every citation he's going to use is from an author who clearly, openly, unequivocally, and without question affirms that Jesus Christ died, was buried and rose again the third day.
03:06: So he has to take authors and say that those authors are contradicting each other, themselves, internally, in their own writings, which
03:16: I do not believe that Sheikh Awal would ever allow anyone to do to the Quran. If we were to apply the exact same standards to the
03:23: Quran, I could take any verse, ignore its context, and say it says this, if we were to be consistent, but of course they would never allow that to happen, and that again is the big issue, the very first debate.
03:38: I sort of consider my Shabir Ali debate the first debate that I did because the debate with Hamzah al -Dumalik,
03:43: I was just simply defending the deity of Christ, was not studying Islam. My first debate that I did where I had actually begun the study of Islam was with Shabir Ali, and from that point onwards, what have you heard me say over and over again?
03:55: Looking for that consistent Muslim who will use the same standards of interpretation, exegesis, and scholarly resources in his study of the
04:05: Quran that he does in his criticism of the New Testament. And I have not yet found that person.
04:13: But that's where we're going in Sheikha Wall's comments here. Now, catch that.
04:49: That is a completely unwarranted insertion for which there is absolutely no historical evidence whatsoever.
04:57: What do I mean by that? Well, notice what he just said, that there were many Gospels. Well, Paul does make reference to false
05:07: Gospels. He makes reference to Judaizers, for example. And he talks about a
05:13: Gospel that does not save. That's true. But notice the interpretation that he added that has no foundation whatsoever, that there were other
05:21: Gospels in which Jesus did not die. There is nothing in this text.
05:27: Remember, Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my Gospel for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal.
05:33: There's nothing here about a Gospel in which Jesus does not die or is not raised. That is a wholly unwarranted insertion.
05:41: And the historical fact of the matter is that no matter how hard you try, you cannot find first century advocates of the idea of a non -crucifixion.
05:52: The Gnostics are second century. The Gnostics have theological reasons that no
05:58: Muslim should ever find himself even close to embracing for their denial of the crucifixion, specifically that Jesus had no physical body.
06:07: In other words, the Gnostics deny the fundamental revelation of the Quran. And yet they will grab the
06:13: Gnostics and say, well, this must reflect something that was going on in the first century, when there is no evidence of that whatsoever.
06:20: So once again, inconsistency in there, an insertion of something that is nowhere to be found in the text itself.
06:27: Do you see how fast that was done? It was done very, very quickly. And it's done very, very much in passing.
06:35: That is something that you have to be listening for in polemics.
06:42: That's a term that's often used very negatively. Oh, you're a polemicist. It just simply means you engage in arguments.
06:48: And as long as your goal in polemics is truth, then to be a polemicist is a good thing.
06:53: Paul was engaging in polemics when he wrote Romans. Jesus was engaging in polemics all the time in his teaching.
07:02: So we have to listen very, very closely there. That Christ, the seed of David, raised from the dead, according to my gospel.
07:10: Then again, we read in the book of Galatians chapter 3, verse 13, Paul trying so hard to crucify and kill
07:18: Jesus. In the book of Galatians chapter 3. Paul trying so hard to crucify
07:24: Jesus. Obviously, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians chapter 15, he had received the very same message he had passed on to them.
07:33: They were all recipients of the same tradition, the same primitive Christian belief. And what was that Christian belief?
07:39: That Christ died for our sins according to scriptures, and he was buried, and he rose again the third day according to scriptures, and he was seen with these witnesses. That is the basic Christian message.
07:46: That is the earliest stratum of revelation that we can discern in the writings that we have.
07:55: And that is what Christians have always believed. And I won't, in this particular context, get into this, but I think one of the topics was supposed to be, was
08:07: Jesus Christ crucified in the debates. I wish that would happen. I really wish that would happen.
08:13: If that topic, if Sheikh Awal will not debate that topic,
08:18: I would be glad to debate that topic. I'd add a third debate, because this is just such a historical slam dunk.
08:26: It is a biblical slam dunk. The Islamic denial of the crucifixion is utterly untenable on any rational grounds.
08:34: I mean, the only reason Muslims reject the crucifixion is because of 40 Arabic words written over six centuries after the events, 700 miles distant.
08:44: And those 40 Arabic words are not mubinun. They are not clear. They are not perspicuous.
08:50: They have given rise to numerous different kinds of interpretations themselves. And so I would be happy to engage that.
09:05: Get a drink here. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, inasmuch that he became a curse for us, because it is written, whosoever is hung on a tree is an accursed of God.
09:26: May the curse of God be upon him. The Bible says that. So why would Paul say
09:32: Christ became a curse for us? Christ became a curse for us? And he came, became a curse for us.
09:41: Christ becoming a curse for us? I don't understand. How could Christ become a curse? Well, Paul explains exactly what he's saying.
09:51: The next verse says, In order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, that we would receive the promise of the
09:57: Spirit through faith. Jesus bears in his body on the tree our sins.
10:02: He becomes a curse for us, the curse of the law. Now, he's going to show fundamental confusion of what
10:08: Christians believe here in just a moment. Because he's going to say that the law was not a curse.
10:13: He's not saying that the law is the curse. The law curses anyone who breaks it.
10:20: The law brings a curse upon anyone who is not perfect in their obedience to the law. Galatians 3 .10
10:26: For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them.
10:35: Now that no one is justified by the law before God is evident, for the righteous man shall live by faith.
10:40: However, the law is not of faith. On the contrary, he who practices them shall live by them.
10:47: Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.
10:53: So the point is that Jesus takes that curse, that wrath that is due from God upon himself.
11:01: He takes that curse of the law so that we might have his righteousness.
11:07: He does so voluntarily. He does so purposefully.
11:13: This is in perfect accord with the gospel narratives. Jesus says, what does he say?
11:20: It is necessary that the Son of Man go to Jerusalem, be betrayed, killed, rise the third day.
11:26: In John chapter 7, I give my life freely. No one takes it from me. And so this is a consistent teaching.
11:36: If we will allow the New Testament to be the New Testament, if we do not begin with the assumption that we're just going to tear it apart, we're not going to allow it to speak with one voice.
11:45: In other words, if we interpret the New Testament the same way the Muslim will absolutely demand that you interpret the Quran. If they're consistent, then they have to allow the
11:54: New Testament to say what the New Testament actually says. It's right there.
12:00: It's explained in the text. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.
12:05: Which law? The law of Moses. The law of Moses is not a curse. The law of Moses isn't a curse, but that wasn't
12:12: Paul's point. It says the law of Moses curses anyone who does not live in perfect obedience to it.
12:23: Those who do these things. Well, we don't do these things. We fail to keep the letter of the law.
12:31: Therefore, it pronounces a curse upon us. Deuteronomy 28 and 29. So Paul is being very accurate in his handling of the
12:39: Old Testament text at this point. And Sheikhawal does not understand the argument that he's presenting.
12:45: Not a curse. But this is what Paul said. That Jesus Christ is a curse for us having died on the cross so that his blood will cleanse us.
12:54: So now, this is what Paul is saying. But I'm going to ask Jesus here. Did you actually die on the cross?
13:00: And I'm going to quote as many scriptures as possible to substantiate that Christ did not die on the cross according to the
13:07: Bible. Now, did you catch that? His assertion, his argument is Christ did not die upon the cross according to the
13:15: Bible. But listen carefully. Make a note of his references and you will discover that every single citation he's going to give will come from a book that is written by an author who will affirm directly and without question the crucifixion burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
13:41: Every single one. And so, he has to interpret the writers against themselves, not in the original context.
13:49: And what he's going to do, remember I played this last week, but we're going to listen to it again obviously not today. What he's going to do is he's going to promote the idea that these books were just cobbled together over time.
14:01: He's going to specifically say they weren't written until the Council of Nicaea which is historically utterly disproven by historical fact.
14:09: We have papyri fragments or entire copies of the Gospels that long predate
14:15: Nicaea but the idea is to for his own people, to promote the idea that the
14:22: New Testament is this completely unreliable text that has undergone this massive amount of editing. And then for the
14:28: Christians, and folks, this is why I keep emphasizing this, this is why I have now given my
14:33: New Testament presentation, I don't know how many times the reliability of the text of the New Testament, things like that most evangelicals when they hear this kind of thing just sit back and go uh,
14:48: I don't know anything about that, I don't know anything about manuscripts and things like that. The day when we can remain in ignorance about the history of the text of the
14:58: New Testament has long passed us by it has long passed us by my friends we have to be aware of the truth about the
15:12: New Testament text and here is a very good reason why Christ did not die
15:21: Paul said, if Christ died on the cross, our preaching is vain, our salvation is vain, and our teaching is vain.
15:31: Inshallah, I'm going to prove tonight that Christ did not die on the cross, according to Christ himself.
15:38: Where do I begin? I begin from the Gospels. The book of Matthew, chapter 5, verse 17
15:44: Jesus Christ said do not think that I Jesus Christ have come to destroy the law of Moses and the prophet
15:51: I have not come to destroy, I have come to confirm. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but a dot from the law shall not pass till all is fulfilled and whoso therefore do the law of Moses and teach somebody so will become great in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever cancel the law of Moses and teach somebody so will become least in the kingdom of heaven.
16:13: How could Christ become a curse when he is saying that if you want to go to heaven, the law of Moses That's not what
16:22: Jesus said There is a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means until the law is accomplished
16:32: There's a fundamental and gross misunderstanding of Jesus' fulfillment of the law The continuing, abiding validity of the moral law but the fulfillment of the law in Jesus Christ and just as Ahmedida Sheikh Awal normally quotes his text
16:53: I appreciate that that is impressive. Unfortunately he frequently does not quote them overly accurately at the very same time.
17:02: You'll notice that he reversed some of the material in verses 18 and 19
17:10: I wonder why he doesn't go on with verse 20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven
17:18: So what does that mean? I mean these are the most righteous people according to the works of the law possible.
17:26: The whole point is they don't have that righteousness and he's going to go to what seems to be their favorite text
17:32: The Rich Young Ruler here in a moment and again never completely cite the whole story and as a result grossly abuse the text of the
17:41: Bible at this point In Jerusalem as Christ was walking in Jerusalem a man who wants to go to heaven a man who wants to go to eternal life a man who wants to be among the kingdom of God came to him in Jerusalem and the man said and I'm quoting in the book of Matthew chapter 19 verse 16 the man said good master what good must
18:05: I do to enter heaven? This man is looking for salvation. So he came to the right person Jesus.
18:11: He said good master what good thing must I do to enter life eternally in heaven?
18:16: Jesus Christ said why do you call me good for? Don't begin by elevating me. Why does thou call me good for?
18:22: The only one that is good is the father in heaven. But Now I stop immediately because it is very common for Muslims to abuse the statement of the young man and Jesus response as if Jesus is saying he's not good
18:42: This is a fundamental misunderstanding Why do you call me good? I'm not good
18:48: Is that what Jesus is saying? Even from the Islamic perspective Hasn't any Muslim ever stopped and gone
18:54: We actually believe Jesus was sinless so he was good so why would he say this?
19:04: What Jesus is doing is once again seeking He knows the heart of this man and what's the whole story?
19:14: He goes through the commandments and young man says I've kept these from my youth up and what is
19:20: Jesus response? Which you're not going to hear from Sheikha Wall because Sheikha Wall doesn't understand this text but what does
19:28: Jesus do? He says one thing you lack, go sell all you have and give it to the poor, come follow me
19:36: What happens? The man goes away and he goes away sad and why does he go away sad?
19:45: Because he had many possessions and Jesus' response is then to talk about the difficulty with which the rich man enters into the kingdom of heaven because his love of earthly things
20:02: That's the whole point of the text It's not to say oh the means of salvation is to keep the law well if anybody could do that perfectly that would be fine but the whole point of the
20:13: Bible Sheikha Wall is that no one can do that we have all fallen short and so to say see
20:21: Jesus simply said do good deeds and you'll go to heaven that's not what Jesus said he said unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you will by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven his whole point if you will allow the text to speak for itself is to point to our sinfulness and our need for something beyond ourselves which is the very thing that Islam denies and that is the whole point and that's how we see the abuse of this text by Islamic apologists if you want to enter heaven you want salvation keep the commandment of Moses and the man said master what is the commandment and Jesus repeated exactly what
21:05: Abraham said what Moses said what Isaiah said what Nehemiah said what Nehum said what
21:11: Daniel said what Ezekiel said what Habakkuk said what Haggai said Jesus spoke in Hebrew and he said the only way you go to heaven is if you believe in this and he spoke in Hebrew Shema Israel Adonai Elohim Adonai Elohim Israel the
21:25: Lord our God the Lord is one if you believe in this heaven is yours did he mention that he is going to die for mankind and notice that's just a total misrepresentation of the text this may be how he remembers it but it's a total misrepresentation of the text he has not only conflated two different stories because in another instance a man comes before him and when he asks what is the greatest commandment he talks about loving
21:53: God and loving your neighbors yourself he's put those two together now but he's not dealing with the text and this is not what
22:00: Jesus was saying now maybe he heard it that way maybe he hasn't checked it out maybe he's memorized that way and said it so many times and never been challenged on it that he hasn't gone back
22:10: I don't know all I know is if you actually look at the text that that's not what it says that the young man said to him all these
22:20: I have kept what do I still lack and Jesus said to him if you would be perfect go sell what you possess and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven and come follow me when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful he went away grieving as New American Standard says for he had great possessions and then that prompts the discussion of how difficult it is for the rich to enter in you just have to let the text be the text and you see that it does not actually present what
22:48: Sheikha Wall is saying No Mr Lazarus just a note to our
22:56: Muslim friends shouting Allahu Akbar is not an argument in a debate it is nothing more than a demonstration that you lack self control that's all it is and yet over and over again they kept having to try to get these people to not yell
23:14: Allahu Akbar and notice what they just yelled Allahu Akbar at at a gross misrepresentation of the text which means nobody in the audience is actually looking at any of this they aren't checking it out why?
23:28: I don't see any difference between that and what happened when I debated Tim Staples that first time and the guy in the audience you know the eucharist you know when everybody gets all excited okay don't you see that at least for the rational person who is actually examining arguments here he just made a really bad argument he just conflated text and misrepresented it and ignored it and didn't cite the whole text and didn't cite it correctly and you all are going
23:57: Allahu Akbar doesn't that tell you something? it tells me something it tells me your dawah is weak your dawah is inaccurate because you're misrepresenting the facts so I would be very careful about you know yelling out
24:18: Allahu Akbar you might want to make sure that what you're yelling at is actually true first I think that would be helpful so I'm quoting the master because the master himself said the master is greater than the servant
24:32: Paul, who has never seen Jesus for once, never seen Jesus out of nowhere he began to write gospel
24:39: Ephesian, Corinthian, Thessalonian 1st John, 2nd John, Timothy Paul didn't write 1st and 2nd
24:46: John that would be John who wrote 1st and 2nd John you contradict any Christian Timothy, Galatian why don't you call the master himself the master said the master is greater than the servant so Jesus Christ is telling us how to go to heaven keep the commandment of Moses the man asked him, master, what of the commandment and he said thou shalt not kill thou shalt not bear false witness thou shalt keep the servant as a holy day thou shalt not bear false witness thou shalt not covet your daughter's wife and he has found the 10 commandments and he said if you keep this, salvation is yours meaning you will enter heaven that's not what he said because he then said if you wish to be complete, go and sell all your possessions, so I wonder, does
25:31: Shekel Wall own anything? has he sold all his possessions? if that's the kind of interpretation that he wants to give then, and if he wants to present this in our debate in Detroit then
25:43: I just simply strongly suggest to him that he be consistent because I'm going to ask that he be so does he own anything?
25:52: does he want to say that Jesus teaching was you could not own possessions? that would not be consistent with Islamic understanding or would he just simply dismiss this text?
26:01: because what's he going to do? it is interesting, he's quoting from Matthew 19 here later in the debate when someone's going to ask him about another text in Matthew where Jesus talks about going to Jerusalem and dying and being buried well, you see remember
26:14: I played this last week Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus are from the 12th century and they don't contain anything after Matthew 3 which is completely bogus, completely untrue
26:25: I mean you can go online Codex Sinaiticus .org is online folks go look, go to Matthew and go to Matthew 4 and you'll find it right there it's just,
26:37: I mean it's factually untrue and yet that's going to be his response at that point but why is he quoting from Matthew 19 if that wasn't a part either again inconsistency, sign of a failed argument this is the case
26:55: Christ did not die on the cross who said that? Jesus Christ said that where?
27:01: in the gospel you see Paul said salvation
27:06: I give you a quotation the book of Romans chapter 10 verse 9 Paul said if you confess with your mouth and you believe in your heart that Christ raised from the dead you are saved, no work just believe in your, say it with your lips and confirm in your heart that Christ was raised from the dead you will be saved but Christ, let's see what
27:30: Christ said about this Jesus Christ said Christ said in the book of Matthew chapter 15 verse 8,
27:43: Jesus Christ said these people they worship me with their lips but their heart is far away from me, in vain do they worship me, teaching the doctrine of men men like Paul who wrote the books ok ok the men like Paul who wrote the books
28:02: I don't have the foggiest idea how you leap from the context of Matthew 15 which is again a text we've used over and over again in talking about Roman Catholicism it is this is a specific quotation that is actually being used here from the
28:23: Old Testament that is talking, being applied by Jesus to the
28:29: Jews in regards to the core bound rule how that then is to be transmitted to one of his most faithful apostles that he converts himself on the road to Damascus and how that's relevant to Paul, we're not told, but that is a massive mixture of context and there is no logical reason whatsoever to think that Matthew chapter 15 has anything to do with the
28:59: Apostle Paul whatsoever in fact that description of those who will not listen to the word of God would be much better applied to Paul's opponents not to the
29:12: Apostle Paul himself there is really at that point an amazing breakdown of logic okay so if the word heart is used there can't be anyone who has true faith in their heart because there are people who in their hearts are far from me so if they're hypocrites there can't be any true believers shank a wall, are there
29:45: Muslims that are hypocrites? I happen to know that the hadith talks about them so if they don't have true faith in their hearts their their faith is false how come you can make that distinction?
30:04: their aman is not true and then there are Muslims who have true faith in God if you can make that distinction why can't we have that distinction in the
30:18: New Testament because that's what it's talking about so in Matthew 15 we're talking about hypocrites who say one thing with their mouth and their hearts different Paul talks about having true faith in your heart that is represented by what you say and yet you see a contradiction here why?
30:34: logically speaking there's obviously no contradiction at all now that's that's just really bad fiction being presented in a debate we played that before I am uncertain as to whether he's talking about Paul's books there or the
31:17: Gospels or both but the fact of the matter is that in a court of law you could demonstrate that the
31:25: Gospels were written long before the council of Nicaea because we have physical evidence we have over 100 papyri manuscripts the vast majority of them would date before the council of Nicaea we have the writings of early church fathers like Ignatius, we have
31:47: Clement's epistle from the Romans to the Corinthians we have Justin Martyr and we have
31:53: Tertullian and we have all this material that quotes frequently from Paul and the
32:00: Gospels all of which long predates the council of Nicaea and so this kind of assertion is documentably completely bogus it's not just false, it's bogus it's fiction, it is
32:14: Dan Brown fiction and I just strongly encourage, shake a wall don't bring fiction to a scholarly debate in Detroit bring the facts bring something you can actually substantiate don't bring fiction because the assertion that any of the