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Welcome back to the Point Taken Podcast, or should I say, welcome shoulder everybody because backs get too much credit. And some of you are just now getting that joke and you've been watching this for years.
That's what's so incredible about people. It's just, they'll go so long without getting a joke. I am Josiah, this is Anna, that's Jonathan. He prefers John, which is why we call him Jonathan. That's Elena.
Welcome to the Point Taken Podcast, where we make and take spiritual and biblical truths and chat it up. Now, today we have Islam. Now, let's just go over just a couple ground rules, people. First off, someone who practices Islam is called a Muslim or a Muslim.
Muslim is not the religion, that is a person that practices.
Islam. Everyone got it so far? So, like Christian for Christianity. Exactly.
See, it's not that hard, right? It's pretty simple. So, it's not the religion of Muslim, it's Islam. And a Muslim or a Muslim is someone who practices it. So, we got a lot to talk about today. And this started mostly because of a girl, Anna here, doing her thing.
We did apologetics last week and then she's like, hey, let's just go ahead and do a whole thing on Islam. So, that's what we're here to do. So, first thing we want to do is, what is Islam? But I forgot.
Are we doing a game beforehand or afterwards? Oh, um. You want to do it at the end? Let's do it now. Are you going to do it now? Let's take a vote. Yeah, let's go ahead and do it now. I say, what do you want to do?
I say, wait, after. Wait, after? After the... Only like 197? After we're done with Islam. After food or restaurant? Got it. Okay, you know what? Anna's in charge. We'll do it afterwards. Elena got outvoted and John was of no help.
So, here we go, guys. So, Islam. What is it? So, what do we know about Islam? Or, maybe what are some impressions of Islam, false or correct? Someone say something. So, John, what is most people's thought process when they hear the word Islam?
Middle East. Middle East. You know what's amazing about that? I think it's exactly right. There are far more Muslims outside of the Middle East than there are inside the Middle East. Now, that's a little misleading because, like, for example, a country like India, where 40 of the country is Muslim, still makes it the third most Muslim country in the world.
That's how many people live in India, if you can get that. Indonesia is number one, and I believe Saudi Arabia is number two, and that's because I think it's 98 of the nation is Muslim. But, John's right.
Most people, if they're honest, when they think of Islam, they think of the Middle East. But, again, India has more Muslims in it than most Middle Eastern countries. What else do people think of? People, a lot of times, think of terrorism.
People think of radical, extreme terrorism. I think of Ramadan. Yeah, Ramadan. They actually just finished Ramadan, I think.
Yeah, we passed a Muslim school going to and from work. They were out for like a month.
Let me first, because our first question is, what is Islam? And, if I may, I'm gonna start with jihad, and then you can bounce off there, and we can just bounce off each other. Okay, guys, many of us, when you hear the word jihad, you think of some radical terrorism.
You think of some extremist group. The word jihad is the Arabic word for struggle, and at this part, I am in total agreeance with our Muslim friends. I won't call them Muslim brethren, but our Muslim friends.
There are several types of jihad, but the most important is the inner, personal jihad, the struggle, the fight to please God, to please Allah, if you will, as opposed to one's own desires. That is the prime motivation of what jihad means.
It's the inner struggle that you're supposed to fight against your wants, needs, and desires to please Allah. Okay, it is loosely, loosely the idea of sanctification in Christianity, where there is a battle between the flesh and the spirit.
Now, it's very loose, don't misunderstand, but the idea behind it that there is an inner struggle is part of that. When it comes to, when it comes to Islam, I had a friend for many years who I was teaching English to.
She was from what she would call Palestine, what I would call Israel. I miss her a lot, actually, but she got her driver's license here in the United States, and citizenship and all that stuff helped her learn English.
She lived very close to a church. One time, I went to her home, and we read the Quran together. Now, for those of you who do not know, for many parts of the world, the primary standard belief is that the Quran is inspired by Allah only in the original Arabic, so that if you are reading it in any language translated from Arabic, it's not God's Word anymore, and then a further group there would say it is blasphemous to translate the Quran into any language of an Arabic.
There are countries in the world, right this second, that you would get the death penalty if you were caught with an English Quran. So, what's on your lap? What is on my lap, if I went to many countries in the world right now, would get me killed.
Now, that's not fear-mongering. That's a fact, but that is not universal. Like I said, I read this right here. Oh, it was not this one. It was hers. I forgot. With her in her home, we read some accounts out of, well, Genesis, if you will.
We washed our hands before we read it. She believed that was a sign of respect. I did not mind that at all. We washed our hands before we read it, and of course, for those of you who are not familiar with a lot of Semitic languages, because they read right to left, same as Hebrew, by the way.
So, her Quran. It's backwards. Like, yes, so we opened it like this, and we were at the first two pages, and there was hers that did not have English in it, but she translated it for me. So, we read together.
Anyway, yeah, that's a little bit about what Islam is. Go ahead. Well, were we gonna go into the pillars? Well, yeah. I guess I should give a little history. Aren't there two different sects? Well, there's way more than two.
Like, two main sects. Sunni and Shiite is what most people would say. Yeah. Real quick on that, though. So, you said that, like, if you translate the Quran into a different language, it's blasphemy, right?
Is it the same if you, like, your friend who is reading it in the original language and then translating it? What would be the difference? Some of them would say she should not do that, but she would say it's okay, because she is translating it, and it's, though it's less than God's Word, she's revealing the truth of Allah to me, who cannot speak Arabic.
That's what, that's what they would say. So, she still read the Quran in Arabic. Now, again, that's not universal. There are many Muslims in the world today that will read it in translated languages publicly on YouTube, like, so don't.
Misunderstand what I'm saying. But what you, but what, one thing that you said, it was when she translated it, it becomes a lesser version of... Yes. So, his word is.
Not good, then? It's only good in one language. It's only good, but if, even if it's not translated, yeah, that's interesting. I think if I pressed, I think if I had pressed her on that, I was not, if I pressed, I think she would say it's okay to translate it.
She's just not supposed to say that. I was just curious, because that's, that's.
Interesting, that, like, because if we translate something... If it's faithfully translated. Well, right, but like ours to Hebrew to Greek and all of that stuff, it was.
Translated. If it's faithfully translated, it's translated correctly, and it's still God's Word.
Right, and it's like, we still have translations in here. It's like, this is the Hebrew word for blah blah blah, and this means this. It goes beyond that. It.
Goes beyond that if you think about it. That's interesting. The New Testament writers often quote from a Greek translation of the Old Testament and say thus says the Lord. Right. In other words, when faithfully translated, they saw it as still God's Word.
I guess I should have said this from the get, and then we can go into the pillars. A little bit about the history of Islam. The Prophet Muhammad lived about 600 years after Jesus left planet Earth. There are many people today that, in ignorance, believe that Islam is older than Christianity, and I think if they were being honest, I know why they believe that.
They just won't say it. They see in their brain the stereotypical idea of who they think a Muslim is, Middle East. They see that as a more tribal, ancient culture, so thus they believe that the religion that those people believe now is older than what someone in a more modernized society believes.
That's what it is. They won't say that out loud to you, but that's what they would tell me in my office. Islam, Muhammad received his revelation 600 years after Jesus was born. Muhammad was mostly illiterate.
Muhammad received these revelations over several years, and then later it was written down. Only he received these revelations. But who who wrote it down, since he was illiterate? Well, scrabs after him.
It was, I can't remember the guy's name. It was not Uthman. That was like three generations later. I can't remember the guy's name. But so did he tell the people? Yes, yes, yes. He received a series of revelations, starting with the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.
He received a series of revelations that only he received. He's the only one that received them, and then those were later written down. So that's, and I'll just be frank with you, basically the first few actions of Muhammad with his followers were war, were battles, were.
Takeovers. Okay, so the first pillar is reciting the creed of Islam, which quote, there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet. And so I think they're supposed to say, is that a part of like their five prayers that they're supposed.
To say a day? Yeah, yeah, but I don't know much about, you know, do they do it at the beginning, at the end, or whatever, but they do pray five times a day, and they always face towards Mecca, whichever direction is closest to Mecca.
So if, you know, if you're in Paris, you'll face, I guess that'd be southeast, you know, whatever. You always face as close, wherever the closest direction to Mecca is. But yes, always the creed. Well, here, second pillar involves prayer.
The Muslim.
Must recite prescribed, not just, you know, like heartfelt prayers, but prescribed prayers five times each day. Each he must adopt a set of physical postures, such as standing, kneeling, and then hands facing to the ground.
Yes. Okay, yeah, that goes on there, but. I remember we had a neighbor when we lived in Collierville. It was a Muslim couple that had three little kids, so Elijah would play with their youngest. Our oldest son would play with their youngest, and they had a whole room that they had built on to the back of their house that had all the prayer stuff and everything that they would go and do that, like.
See, I think that's beautiful. It was, it was very, very pretty. Beyond that, they were, the wife barely spoke English. She was from Jordan, and she was one of the most hospitable people, and boy could she make some Turkish coffee.
If you've never had it, that is the best coffee on the face of the planet. Oh my.
Goodness. There is much, there is much in the Quran, not all, but much in the Quran that would agree with the biblical idea of hospitality. Right. Going back to the.
Prayers, though, the thing that got me, it's they would recite five prescribed prayers. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's not, like, about a relationship. It's about a ritual. It's about the routine. Right. And the religion.
They had actually a clock that would chime whenever it was time to pray. Well, and they say that, oh, and I saw that Nabeel Qureshi guy that we were talking about earlier. He said that, like, in certain parts of town, you can hear at the mosques, like, bells going off, and they would, like, want to compete with each other.
So, like, one would go off, I think, at, like, some ungodly time of morning, like 4 a .m., and then, but they would try to compete who would get the first bell ring, essentially. So they had times, like, he said that his dad ended up waking him up in the middle of the night, and he's like, to pray is better than sleep, and he's like, as a kid, I remember hearing that, and he's like, shut up, Dad.
Like, I want to sleep. Sleep is better than prayer right now. So the third pillar is the religious duty to observe the month of Ramadan, like we had mentioned. For those who don't know, that's a fasting.
Yes, but it's only from sunup to sundown that they're fasting, and then, usually, they have, like, these big feasts, like, at the nighttime. I'll.
Say this. I'll say this about the commitment of some of our Muslim friends. Not all. Like a month. But some of our, I'll give you an example. There is a town in Michigan. Oh, man, I wish I could remember this one.
This was 15 or so years ago, where 98 of the town is Muslim. 98. Ramadan, because if y 'all don't know, they use a lunar calendar, so much like the Jews do, so because it's a lunar calendar, Ramadan obviously changes year to year, right, because it's a 360 day year as opposed to 365 or 366.
So this particular year, Ramadan was in August, which is when the high school football team did two-a-days. If you don't know what two-a-days are, it's where you practice two times during the day.
This is the commitment. You ready? For that month, practices were at, like, 1 a .m. and 4 a .m. to avoid, because if you go practice in the sun with no water, you're going to die. Yeah. Right? So they did it in the middle of the night out of commitment to what they believed to be God's desire for their life.
Well, and so, I'm sorry, go ahead. Well, I'll just say this. I've said something similar about the Jehovah's Witness. People with far less hope, even if their system of belief is true, with far less hope than what we have, and far less promise that they are of God's good graces, with far less security for eternal future.
They often do more for less hope and less security than we do for blessed promises that are assured in Jesus. I mean, it is sobering. It's sobering. Is that possibly out of a very human sense of, we want to be able to, in any small way, participate in our salvation?
I mean, I suppose so, but... Because it is a works-based... It is a works-based system, and that's possible. But I've just got to think. I've just got to think that that level of commitment, even if you remove that aspect of it, that level of commitment, because they still believe, they would say, that salvation is all of grace of Allah.
So they still believe He is working in you and to enable you to do X, Y, and Z. But only in, I mean, but only in words, because if you have that much realistic and works-based in your salvation, it's, I mean, it's built in.
So, I mean, if you look at it, Christianity is really the oddity, right? Well, without a doubt. Because we are, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, we are the only faith that is completely without works for salvation.
Now, we are expected to bear fruit and don't be obedient. Right. But it has nothing to do with salvation. That's true. So that really makes Christianity the oddity out of the rest of the world. Without a doubt.
Right. Without a doubt.
Okay, fourth pillar is, essentially, they're required to give 2 .5 of their earnings. So it's like their form, I don't want to say tithing, because it's not a tenth, but, you know, giving. The fifth pillar is that of Hajj, H-A-J-J, which is the pilgrimage to Mecca.
Yep. And so they were, like, every Muslim is required to make this pilgrimage at least once in their life. Yes. Correct? But what do they do if they can't? There are... So long as they're financially and, like, medically capable of it.
There are, yes, there are financial and medical provisions for, ways around that sounds... Yeah. But I don't remember what they are, but it's, it's ironic. This just made me think of this. There is a passage in what's called the Didache, an early, early, early Christian writing.
I don't remember how early. I want to say just a few decades after Jesus left. I want to say maybe, maybe as much as a century, but it's about what to do if a person cannot be submerged in baptism. Now what's funny is there are Christians today that believe that's not what Jesus and John the Baptist taught, that it's supposed to be some immersion, but it talks about...
There's this whole thing, because think about the practicality of this, because some of these people were living in towns where there was not a body of water big enough to dunk somebody in. There wasn't a river.
There was, I mean, you think about that part of the world. That'd be often. It talks about pouring a cup over their head. It talks about what to do if they're, if they're medically can't. So there's, like, all these provisions and all that stuff.
Well, so there are provisions. I don't remember what they are, but every Muslim is supposed to make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in a life, like you said. And I used.
To work with a couple of Muslims at a previous job, and they had been multiple times. One of them was from a very wealthy family, so it's like the more often you go, it's like you're better off, I guess, because you're doing something good multiple times, and like we said, their religion is very faith-based, or not faith-based, work-based.
And the sixth one, even though there's only five pillars, this one's the extra, and this is the jihad that you had mentioned earlier. So that is, like, for the, the radical believers, would you say? No.
Or that is.
Just... So jihad, they would define in several different ways. It means struggle.
So there is a... So this one says, the obedience to the call of jihad may be interpreted as the internal struggle, like you said, or external defending of Islam, or both. Though the term evolved over the last ages of modern Muslim apologists often assert a softer side, throughout most of history today, jihad.
Primarily connotes that warfare is spiritual significance. Yeah, so radical extremists will take that to mean defending Islam against unbelievers, against infidel means without faith. But most Muslims today would interpret that jihad as an inner struggle spiritually between what we would call.
The desire between flesh and obeying God. So the radical is more, we are against every other religion, we are struggling with them. Yes. Much instead of... Warfare.
Inner struggle. 100%. Okay. 100%. Right, right. That's exactly right. You want to get on Mohammed? Yeah, our guy Mohammed here, our guy Mo. By the way, as of 15 years ago, Mohammed was the most common name in the world.
I can tell you why, because it can.
Be used as a first name and a last name. I was about to say, at the same time, Mohammed Mohammed.
And it seems to me that nine out of every ten Americans that convert to Islam change their name to Mohammed. Mohammed Ali? Yeah, 100%. I mean, it seems that way. It's not always true, but... Alright, so, we wrote prophecy of Mohammed in the Bible, and we should have put it like in quotes, or like...
Quote-unquote prophecy. Because it's not actually a prophecy about Mohammed, but I guess I have to. So guys, let's go to, let's everybody, just real quick, grab your phone, whatever, let's go to John 14.
John chapter 14. If you're driving right now listening to this, do not go to your phone, but for the rest of you. I just want to quickly show you something, and if I were to say, Josiah, give me one reason to not believe Islam is the absolute truth, it would probably be this, what we're about to point out.
It would probably be this. I don't think, I think this is insurmountable. I think a third grader could, and I'm not trying to be rude, much like I don't think anyone can honestly defend the idea of secular evolution.
I don't think anyone can defend this. John 14, starting in verse 18. I'm sorry, starting in verse 16. This is Jesus speaking to his disciples. This is the last week of his life, or so they thought, and he said, I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper.
Maybe your Bible would say counselor or advocate. That is paraclete. Paraclete. To be with you forever, even the spirit of truth. Okay. I will not leave you as orphans. I will come to you. They believe that what you're about to read in John 14, 15, 16, the paraclete, the counselor, the advocate, the comforter, is a prophecy about Muhammad 600 years later.
Even though it says forever? Yes. Okay. Because his words are with us forever. Now, if you press them and say verse 26 clearly says, but the helper, the Holy Spirit, the Father will send in my name, they will tell you that part is corrupt and has been added in.
They will, they'll go on, because Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit for three chapters, right? A lot of this is about him. In fact, if you go in chapter 16, it says, yeah, when the spirit of truth comes, verse 13, he will guide you in all truth.
He won't speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears, he will speak and declare it to you. He goes on, does his thing there. But back in chapter, yeah, here it is, chapter 16, verse 7, nevertheless, I tell you the truth.
It's to your advantage. I will go away for if I don't go away, the helper will not come to you. And if I go, I will send him to you. Now, they believe this is a prophecy about Muhammad. Okay? Now, Muhammad, 600 years after this was written, shows up in the desert and claims to have a revelation from God that only he can interpret.
I heard a Christian in a debate with a Muslim worded this way one time, and I think this is well-worded. Maybe if any Muslims listen to this, just put yourself in my shoes for a minute, in my in my boots that make me taller.
This is what you're asking me to do. You're asking me to take that passage, which says it's about the Holy Spirit, say that part is corrupted, and then say that a man 600 years later has a vision from God that only he can interpret, and that's a fulfillment of this, and I'm supposed to believe that as God's Word.
Imagine, imagine, if 600 years, so put yourself, put yourself in my shoes, 600 years after Muhammad prophesied, 600 years, if some dude had a vision that only he could interpret and said that he was from Allah, would you believe him?
Every one of them will tell you no. Every one of them will tell you no, but that's what they're asking us to do, and I don't think they realize that. That's what they're asking us to do. So here's what's incredible.
Every online Islamic resource I find, when trying to talk to Christians about this passage about Muhammad, will say that the Bible itself is corrupted, but portions of it have the truth in it. They would say that which agrees with the Quran.
It's the most circular reasoning I've ever heard in my life. They would say they will use atheistic arguments to debunk the Bible, but then say that these nuggets of it are true, like this prophecy, quote unquote, of Muhammad.
Can I have the Hector hat? Yeah. I have a question. So for those of you who don't know, or listen and don't watch, the Hector hat, when someone puts it on, means they're about to say something that's clearly untrue, and they're marking that by.
Having a Hector hat. So my question is, do we not do that as Christians with the Book of Enoch? How so? Like, take parts of, I've heard Christians who are very sound in their.
Faith, why is this wet? Hector hat? I don't know. I have questions. I didn't do it. Oh no. It's fine. Okay. I didn't do it. It wasn't me. I didn't spill anything over there.
But I have heard Christians say that Enoch is not a canonical, is not in the canon of Scripture, for obvious reasons. There are a lot of parts of it that are not, that do not line up with Scripture. But there are parts of it that speak about things that are in the Bible in more detail, so we take that as more of a truth, I guess, or more of like, okay, we can read this and kind of get more information out of it, would be a better way to put it.
Supplement. There we go.
That's a better word. Truth was not the word to use there. I would say that just because, like, all right, just because the, say the history books in our schools, right, the history books we learned growing up, okay, just because they're not in the Bible doesn't make them untrue, right?
We can learn a lot about even, like, say, the time of Jesus from Roman documents that, or Roman historians, stuff like that, that we would not get from the Bible. It doesn't make that, the, those texts wrong necessarily, it's that we can't confirm that that was from Christ, they're not, what's the word I'm thinking of?
Inspired. Inspired. But it's not, to Elaina's point, to make sure no one missed it, the difference is, so what we are saying is that God's Word is the Holy Scriptures. We are saying, of course, there can be true things in many books, okay?
That's not the same thing as saying, well, that means God's Word is the Anustaf, God-bereaved, in pages seven through nine of that history book. We're not saying that. We're just saying page seven through nine is true.
What the Muslim is saying is, no, no, no. God's Word, the Word of Allah, is present in parts of the Gospel. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're saying in that, and God's Word must be extracted from all the mess.
That is not what we're saying. We're saying the Bible is infallible and errant. We are also saying, no other book is. And maybe that's worth, just real quick, inerrant means without error. There are other books that are inerrant.
Now listen, before someone, just listen to me for a minute. Inerrant means without error. Well, there are children's books that are four pages long that do not have an error in it, okay? Everyone follow me on that?
Those books are not infallible. Infallible means incapable of error. So if I had a student in my Spanish class when I was teaching public school who made a 100 on their test, I would say their test was inerrant.
I would not say that student is infallible, because just because they didn't make an error today on the test does not mean they are infallible as they proved next week on the quiz or something like that, right?
So we say the scripture is inerrant and it's infallible. It's incapable of error because God is its author, thus it cannot err. What the Muslim is saying is the scripture contains parts of God's Word in the gospel and that must be extracted out.
That's a different thing than saying, oh there's a true statement in the book of Enoch or Tobit or whatever. Good question. Okay. All right, so. I just don't get how they can even get,.
Read verse 16 of John 14 where it says, and I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever. It's not saying my word, that that helper's word will be there forever. It says the helper will be there forever.
Is that scripture in here? Like, translated in here? I was gonna ask that, yeah. Is John 14 in there?
Yeah, like in a form. No, because I don't believe Muhammad ever thought of that idea. I believe that's a.
Modern thought. Okay, I didn't know if this was something that they changed in their book and like took out, you know.
Don't they have like different? Okay, let me ask you this. Have you ever read this? No, that's why I want to borrow it.
Have you ever read this? I have read like sections of it. I've read like certain verses. Have you read this?
I am not certain, and I've heard other Christians say this, and I agree. I am not certain that Muhammad had read the Gospels. I am not certain that he was even aware of what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John said.
Even though it's 600 years after Jesus, they were well circulated by that point. I am not sure that he's even aware. He knows things about him. For example, basically every reference to Jesus calls him the Son of Mary.
He's aware of certain things. Well, I'll tell you what. Are we ready to read some of these? Okay, who should read it, Elena or you? Well, it does matter a little bit. All right, Elena, you're gonna read it.
Jonathan, will you hand that to her? All right, you're gonna go to Sira, which is chapter. You're gonna go to Sira 4. Here's what I want to do. I want us to read, not read into for ourselves, what the Quran says about Jesus, and us go from there.
Can y 'all mind if we do that? All right, because that's what we're gonna do anyway, right? All right, Sira. It's our podcast. We get to do whatever. Yeah, thank you. All right, this is about the crucifixion.
Now, just listen to what the Quran says about the crucifixion. Sira 4, verse 157. They have very long chapters. By the way, the Quran's only 114 chapters. It's very short compared to the Bible. So, verse 157.
Go ahead. Okay, so did everyone catch that? They, meaning the Romans, the Jews, did not kill Jesus. Now, it says, though they appeared to kill him. There's two main schools of thought among Muslim apologists on this passage.
Though it appeared that they killed him. The traditional one is that he did not die, but fainted. That's why when they went to break his legs and said he was already dead, that he actually wasn't. So that his resurrection was not a resurrection, but an awakening.
Okay? That is the traditional. Yeah, that's the traditional view. I guess pass out however you want to word it. The swoon theory, if you will. The other interpretation of that is when it says, though it appeared that they killed him, means someone looked like him.
Someone that looked like him was on the cross. Not him directly, but someone that looked like him. But what's amazing is there is no historical evidence for either of those. The Romans knew how to kill people.
They were pretty good at it. Well, and that's what I was mentioning to you. It's they had a certain procedure for killing people. For crucifixion, crucifixion specifically, if I can get this out. They started with the flogging with the cattails and like all of that.
Jesus in this point was unrecognizable. Okay? They do that so that the person does not have enough strength to fight back when they nail them to the cross. Yes. And they didn't make all the other people carry the cross.
They made Jesus do that specifically because, you know, he was king of the Jews, quote-unquote. And so they do that, get him up on the cross, nail the person to the cross, and they're so tired, so exhausted, so beaten that they don't have enough strength to really breathe well.
Then you nail them to the cross. And so they can only, was it breathe in and can't really exhale because of the way? You have to pull yourself up. Right. And so it's like, and then they would break their.
Legs or, you know, do other things. So they can't push off the nail to get a breath.
Right. And so it was very specific, a very specific procedure that they had. They had it down to a science. That's why they were so successful at it. The irony. The fact that you think that someone can faint from that and survive that is.
Ridiculous. The irony is, it says anyone who disagrees with this is full of conjecture and doubts. There's no evidence that Jesus did not die. The, all the contrary evidence is that he did die. There's no evidence that a twin, if you will, was put in his place.
But they say, the Quran says that anyone who believes different than this is full of doubts. But no one believed that until Muhammad received that revelation 600 years later. Didn't they think it was Judas too?
Yes. Okay. Yes. A lot of them say it was Judas. Thank you for reminding me. A lot of them say it was Judas. Um, and, and they think the passage in Acts about him falling out off the tree and spilling out his insides is a reference to that.
You're exactly right.
But with that, would, since Judas was the one that betrayed Jesus, wouldn't he have at some point during all the trials and everything go, hey, I'm not that guy. You would think. That ain't me. You would think.
Like, if they believe the part of, do they believe the part of the Bible when Jesus is going through all the trials and they say, I am whoever you say I am, or? Oh, I am who I am. Well, no, he, oh, who do you say I am?
I am. I don't know what they would say about that. Right. Because he doesn't actually, like, stand up for himself, anything like that during his trials. You would think if it was Judas who had already betrayed Jesus.
No, that's not me, that's not me. But, no, no, no, it's the other guy. Remember the guy I pointed out to you in the garden? Yeah, I got the shackles for, like, the shackles for all that stuff. But my thing is with the crucifixion, how many eyewitness accounts were there for the crucifixion?
Like, at least 500. So the scripture says 500 people saw him after the resurrection at one time.
It was more than 500, but at one time. And so how do 500 people think that somebody survived that? That's what I don't understand is because of how brutal crucifixion is as a process, how you could faint from that.
Like, how that would even be, like, a possibility of how they use it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes.
I'm about to say, like, is that making sense? We have, we have more historical evidence for Jesus than we do any other 1st century Palestinian, except one. And that would be Josephus. And that's because he wrote his own stuff.
But, yeah, the idea behind it is basically it's the same old thing no matter which religion you go to. New Revelation, only one person can interpret it. Where it disagrees with the scripture, the scripture's wrong.
And you just have to take our word for it. Sarah 5, just do a short one. Just do verse 17, please. That's short. All right. All right. Maybe I'm wrong. Keep going. 517? Yeah.
Make sure it's 5. Yep. OK. In blasphemy, indeed, are those that say that Allah is Christ.
All right. Stop there. The Son of Mary. I just I just want to real quick. There is an implication there that would you read it one more time?
Just what you just read. In blasphemy, indeed, are those that say that Allah is in Christ, the Son of Mary.
Allah being God. In blasphemy, they say that Allah is Christ, the Son of Mary. Right. The implication is that there are Christians who are saying that Jesus is God. You follow me on that? In blasphemy, they say that it's an interesting implication because it's supposed to be a modern invention.
At any rate, in blasphemy. So anyone who believes that Jesus is God or even the Son of God is committing blasphemy. So just make sure you understand that as we move forward, that is their view of that view of Christianity.
Verse 47 is my favorite. Of five? Yes. We only have two more.
Let the people of God of the gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. Stop there.
But the people of the gospel judge based on what Allah has revealed therein. So what that verse is saying, and she can go on, but it says the same thing. What that verse is saying is this. The people of the gospel, that's their version of Christians, should judge Allah based on what he has revealed therein.
Keep going, Elena.
If any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are no better than those who rebel.
So if we do not judge Allah based on what he's revealed in the gospel, then we are no better than an unbelieving rebel. So the Quran tells us to obey the gospel. Did everyone just hear that? The Quran just told us to obey the gospel.
Now, of course, they would jump in and say, yes, but parts of the gospel are corrupted. And I would say, which parts? And they would say the parts that don't already agree with the Quran. That's the most circular reasoning that's ever existed.
Especially if the Quran says you're supposed to believe the gospel.
So here you go, you ready? To all my Muslim friends listening right now or will ever listen to this, I'm begging you, even if it's just 30 years from now and YouTube is still a thing, just listen to me for just a minute.
Do you understand the Quran is telling me to obey Jesus? The Quran just said to obey the gospel. Well, that's what I'm trying to do. The Quran is telling me to obey the New Testament, to obey Jesus, to believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and life, and no man comes to the Father except through him.
To believe that the wages of sin and death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. The Quran just told me to obey that. So in a sense, I'm obeying the Quran because the Quran just told me to obey the gospel.
Everyone follow that? Could you read that one more time, Elena? Can I read 46? Sure.
And in their footsteps we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the gospel. Therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are no better than those who rebel.
So Jesus came to fulfill the law. We agree with that, by the way. I wonder where Muhammad got that idea. So Jesus came to fulfill the law. If anyone does not believe what Jesus said in the gospel, they are no better than an unbelieving rebel.
Yes, sir. OK. It's wild. I've only got one more for the Quran, Anna.
Well, I wanted to go back on the one that you read before that one.
The blasphemy one. Yeah. Verse 17. Can you read it one more time for me?
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. I have to finish the sentence. Oh, that's OK.
So who believes that Jesus is God? You're committing blasphemy. Our camera guy had two hands on the camera and didn't raise his hand. But luckily, God weighs the intentions of the heart. So I think we're OK.
But just to be clear. But so with that specific scripture or verse in the Quran. It's called verse. Yeah. Let's not call it scripture. They're quote unquote scripture. Yeah. Air quotes. If you can't see me, that verse.
Specifically states that Christ is not the son of God. Hundred percent. That is blasphemy. That is the unforgivable sin. If you believe that you will not go into heaven, they say.
Oh, you're saying yes. If you believe that, like if you believe that Jesus is the son of God.
Yeah. Then that is blasphemy. That is the unforgivable sin. You will not go into my friend.
My friend who went and had dinner with and read with her and all that stuff. She would be considered a liberal Muslim by their standards. Of course, by their standards. But anyway, what do you know of her family?
You said her family like first. Her family did not live over here.
OK, so she was OK. OK. She was a Western Muslim.
She moved. She moved here for what I think to most would be obvious reasons. Yeah. Let's just leave it at that. But she. She told me she goes, I do not believe this, by the way. This is what she said.
She said, Josiah, you know, we really believe the same thing. Muslims and Christians, the only difference is the only difference is we don't believe Allah has a son. And I said, well, that's not the only difference.
Well, because you can't be trying you like that. It's a whole. It's just like putting a can of worms. I have a question on that. If they say that Jesus is who he says he is in the gospel, then how do they get that?
He was just a prophet and not.
Exactly. Because they don't believe the gospel is Matthew through Revelation.
Because they only. Yeah, it's only they believe it's the parts.
God's word must be plucked out of the Christian Bible.
And it's only what matches up in there. So where do they get that he's a prophet and not the son of God? Oh, that's a good. What do you mean? How does Jesus is considered a prophet?
Because the Quran says he is. But which, by the way, in a sense, he is. Yeah. In a sense. Well, yeah, in a sense. But they believe in many. And it is they believe in many of the biblical figures as prophets.
Abraham. Yeah. Of course, they believe Ishmael was the one on the sacrificial rock. Not Isaac. Abraham, Ishmael, Moses, Moses, Jonah, Job, David, Jesus, Muhammad. They believe Muhammad is the final prophet.
They really believe revelation has ceased and it ceased with Muhammad. But there's no indication other than a watered down argument from John 14 that Muhammad was coming. They gave no indication there'd be further revelation.
I mean, do they have the book of Isaiah like something that's like. Or David's writings, do they count that as scripture? Like with Isaiah as much as they as much as he prophesies about Jesus is coming and like how he's going to die on the cross and all this stuff.
Do they not have anything like that? I don't know their specific view on the book of Isaiah. But remember, they would not doubt that Jesus did come and that he is the Christ. But they would doubt that he is the son of God.
Well, because Messiah means Christ. Yes. Correct. So what is Christ again? Anointed one. OK, so that was chosen one. So a prophet. It could in their mind. OK, yeah. So but there's no divinity in there.
He is. Oh, and then I did read something. It's on. Let me get the Web site. It's on why Islam dot org. It talks about how Jesus was born miraculous miraculously without a father. So they acknowledge the virgin birth.
But they state that his birth was not a sign of his divinity, but just evidence of his unique status as one of God's greatest prophets. The Koran compares the birth of Jesus to the creation of Adam and God's eyes.
And this is a quote from three fifty nine of the Koran in God's eyes. Jesus is just like Adam. He created him out of dust, said to him, be and he was. And so it talks about it's just not an indication.
So three, that's three fifty nine. Yeah. And there and they also say and I want to ask you about this in a minute, how he spoke in the cradle. They say that Jesus spoke from the cradle. Yeah, there's a that was interesting.
That was like it was very. We don't have a lot on Jesus until he was like, what? We have the story when he was 12, when he was born, when he was like a toddler, when the wise men came to him and then he was 12 and then his ministry, like when he was in his 30s.
Right. Yeah. That's like it.
Yeah. The quote you read is spot on. Jesus for all is that of Adam. He's created him from dust. Then he said to him, be. And he was. So, yes, you're exactly right. He sees the creation of Jesus the same as he does the creation of.
It's wild. Adam. Well, yeah.
So Jesus was not born of Mary. He was created out of dust.
He does was born in the same way that God created Jesus.
In other words, he didn't have a father is what they're stating. Oh, OK. OK, I gotcha. But it says that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and impregnated her, you know, like whatever she was impregnated and then she was pregnant with Jesus.
So it's like, how do they what's the Holy Spirit there? But, you know, that's it's like all of these things. They just don't. Yeah. To me, it might make sense to somebody else, especially if you're a Muslim.
And I would love for you to comment.
This is why as Christians, why do we believe what we believe? Why are we assured the Bible is God's word? Because, for example, for example, Jehovah's Witness believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.
Not God, not the creator. Right. So there's always a watering down of who Jesus is because there's a watering down of what his word is. And it's it's consistent across. And again, again, this is not a let's beat up on the Muslims because they're wrong and stupid.
This is a challenge. OK, we are willing to ask why we believe what we believe. So I'm asking Muslims and remove cultural ties, remove. That's so hard for them. Because my grandmom, my granddad did. Why do you believe what you believe?
What evidence? Like, why do you believe what you believe? Because if you are most honest with yourself, the revelation from God in your life comes from one source. One single source that then is commented on, fleshed out in commentaries and and and things like that through the Uthman's following Muhammad.
But the revelation of God comes through one source. Now, then through that one source, you see the ability to put on a lens. I thought I had my sunglasses on. I was about to. Oh, here they are. Like seriously, if this is the Quran, you then believe that you can use this as a lens through which to see God's word, like some Nick Cage National Treasure stuff through through God's through the Bible.
You would not view that as logical, as consistent as a worthwhile argument for any other area of your life.
Can I not one can comment. Something didn't like once the Quran was written or like they found Mohammed's things like after he'd been dead, like however, so many years, the guy who then like wrote it, he pulled stuff out and like discarded it.
Well, it wasn't even like his full writing that became the Quran.
Kind of. OK, so the third Caliph head, if you will, of Islam. That's not a fair term, but I can't think of a better way for it. Obviously, in the couple of generations after Mohammed's death found variations.
Now, now, everyone make sure I want to be totally fair. There are five thousand seven hundred about copies of the New Testament. I'm going to take on the Old Testament copies of the New Testament in Greek.
I'm not referring to translations. I'm referring to the original languages that survive today. Now, obviously, there have been probably millions in the course of history, but that are still. That are still surviving today that have not been eaten by bugs or burned or destroyed or whatever.
Five thousand seven hundred. OK. In those five thousand seven hundred manuscripts, there are variants. So, for example, and I think it's ninety seven and a half percent of them are spelling. So I'm not denying the existence of variants.
This is why and we can do this on another podcast, by the way. It actually enhances my belief that God's word has been preserved on the body of Bibles. Sometimes we'll say some manuscripts say or something like that.
So I'm not denying the existence. I'm not saying the existence of variants proves that it's not God's word. God decided to use regular means, just like he decided to use sinful people to bring about his good purpose.
God used regular human means to preserve his word. I understand that to supernaturally preserve his word. What happened, what you're referring to is Uthman found variants in the Quran. But Muhammad was dead and he didn't like their variants.
He chose the version he liked best and had every other version burned. Right. So that the end result is this is true. This is true. What I'm about to say, you can pick up any Quran anywhere on planet Earth.
In Arabic, and it will say the exact same thing in the exact same word order. People memorize the whole Quran because it's much shorter than the Bible. And that's been one of their main ways of preservation, especially in societies that, you know, before printing presses and so on and so forth.
But the reason they have that certainty is because we can't know the truth. In other words, the truth was traded for certainty. We have no way of knowing if the Quran we are holding is actually what Muhammad wrote because we burned all other possible copies to compare and contrast to.
So three generations after Muhammad, we burned all other copies. There are zero copies of that now. So we have no way of knowing if the version Uthman chose is actually what Muhammad said. And we will never know because all evidence was destroyed.
I don't want to trade certainty for the truth. I'd rather the truth. I want to know what John wrote. And if that means that sometimes I have to re-describe, spell the name Jesus without an extra U. I know it's not in English.
In other words, I want to know what John said. There is no way any Muslim on planet Earth can look you in the eye and honestly say that they know they have what Muhammad wrote. It's impossible. It's not possible.
So that's what you're referring to. You said it much better than I did. Well, not really. So look. What's that last one, number six, say? Oh, that was John's question. Did we already do it? Did he do a good job?
I think you kind of covered it. It's if the Koran is 100 correct, how is it that they see the Bible as having error and then how do they know what parts are corrupt and what parts are not? Only through reading it through the lens of the Koran.
That's the only through reading it through the lens of the Koran. That's sad. So where the Koran says X and the Bible says, you know, this, they go with X. Yes. 100 of the time.
Do we want to talk? I'm sorry. No, don't. You were finishing a sentence and I interrupted you.
I still love you, even though you spilled the milk on a woman's hat. I didn't spill anything. You did.
It's fine. I didn't spill anything over there. So she was just dreaming it? No, I don't know why it was wet.
So here we go, guys. Here's what we're saying. Guys, first off, no Christian or Muslim out of fear should be afraid of speaking of these things. In my experience, I have typically found that Muslims are quite ready to talk about their faith with you.
Oh, for sure. I have found that in my experience. John, would that be your experience? Yes. Absolutely. They love answering questions. Yeah. At least the ones that I've talked to. I have found that my experience with Muslims in America is no different than what I am told is the same abroad.
Quite willing to share their faith, not ashamed, and are willing to even reason with you. I love that. And I will say this. It's easy to pick on inconsistencies with their faith when they live in America.
But I would say that I have found some quite committed—I'm not denying quite committed, quite intelligent, faithful Muslims. My qualm with them is I don't believe they can be consistent with their own premise that the Qur 'an is God's word when it in and of itself comes from a one single source that cannot be verified.
Whereas the contrast is God's word scripture. God used 40 different writers on three different continents in three different languages. That all is consistent with itself. That is contrary to what we see in human nature.
We see inconsistency when people try to create the same thing. So, that's another big difference for me.
Did you want to tie up salvation? Like their version of salvation?
John said it better than I'm going to. What separates the message of the gospel from other would-be salvific systems is salvation in the gospel is solely by grace. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
God did not wait for man to move closer to him. God moved.
Could you imagine if he did wait for us to make the first move? He'd still be waiting. No, I'm about to say nobody.
He'd still be waiting. Nobody would go. But this all starts with the correct biblical anthropology idea of man. It's that man's heart is desperately wicked and that every one of us have chosen ourself over God.
It's not that we were morally neutral. It's not that because we were born in sin of Adam that we have no fault in the matter. It's in spite of that, every one of us chose ourself over God. Isaiah 53 says, We have all turned, every one of us, to our own way.
That's one of the most damning sentences in the whole Bible. We've turned to our own way.
My mom actually works with a Muslim woman, and she's talked to her about her faith and everything, and she goes, okay, so how do you guys go to heaven? She explained how Christians do. And she's like, well, everything is balanced on a scale, so our good deeds are balanced on a scale versus the bad things that we do.
And so at the end of our life, we just hope that the good deeds outweigh the—.
That's exactly right. There's no certainty.
Yeah, we hope, and it's not the hope and assurance that we Christians have, but she's like, it's the hope that our good deeds outweigh the bad deeds. However, she did say that some good deeds have a higher score, if you will, versus—but that's all up to Allah to decide.
Well, that's—but I would say that's maybe less salvation and more like rewards in heaven-based. They would still call that grace because God has provided the means by which you can become accepted on His sight.
Yeah, that's how you get into heaven.
There was actually one person who said— In other words, God does not owe you the means to get that, is what they would say.
Yeah. There was actually one person who said— I can't quote, give credit to who it's due, but he had stated, even if I—and he was Muslim— even if I had one foot in heaven, I would still be unsure because Allah can decide whether or not I get in.
And like I said, He can give you more favor for like one good deed versus other good deeds, and so it's very fickle. And one thing I did want to note really quick was the list of attributes that they give for Allah or like the beautiful names for Allah, which a lot of the times Muslims will memorize and use for worship, kind of like we use Yahweh and Jehovah-Jireh, like all of those things.
But they stated that not one of those names for Allah is love or loving. And in Scripture, we have Scripture that says God is love. Isn't that crazy? Oh, and then one of the other ones, what did I say, was deceitful.
Deceitful is one of His attributes. They put Him as deceitful, but they justify that as being, well, if you're deceitful, you plan for things. You make a plan in order to be deceitful. How am I going to work this out?
So they just say He's a planner. Premeditated. I mean, right, but that's the thing. It's like I'm reading this stuff, and I was talking to my husband about it, and I said just like if I was not a believer, if I just listed Christianity and Islam side by side and looked at it, I said I would have to go with Christianity.
There is no assurance in the salvation with Mohammed and with Allah and all of that. It's just like I would not have 100 certainty in that. And also, Nabeel Qureshi, like I had mentioned earlier, he was a Muslim who ended up converting to Christianity some years ago.
And he said when he was going through his conversion to Christianity, he was looking for comfort, so he turned to the Quran because he was very upset. He knew what he had to do. He knew what that would entail for a Muslim to convert to Christianity.
And he said he looked to the Quran for comfort, and there was not a single verse in the Quran that he could turn to to get comfort. He's like, but when I open scripture, it talks about all sorts of comfort.
Like God will take on the weight. He will bear our weight. Like we can give the burdens. Cast all your cares upon the Lord. Yes, and like share one another's burdens and all of that. He was like there was not one verse in Quran about that, about comfort.
And I'm like that is just really sad.
But it's consistent with their view of redemption. Think about redemption because what is redemption? Redemption is God buying us back, reconciliation, God bringing us back to a right step with him. How does God do that?
How does God reconcile us? Through Christ. Through Christ on the cross, right? So in Islam, there isn't a crucifixion of a Savior. It is simply an Allah pardoning or not pardoning sin. It is him forgiving sin or not forgiving sin.
But that sin is never paid for. It's simply dismissed, charges are dropped.
Just think about the difference. This is a huge difference. So there was no one who served as the propitiation. That's exactly right.
In other words, if someone wrongs somebody, I can look them in the eye and say, I promise you justice will come. Somebody will be paying for that. Either that person who wronged you at the end of your life on judgment day or through the propitiationary.
Oh, goodness. Propitiationary. The substitution atonement of Jesus on the cross. In Islam, that's not true. Allah either pardons or doesn't pardon, and that person gets away with it. There is no payment for that sin, whereas the justice of God is the scales will balance every deed, the Bible says, hidden or out loud.
Every deed, every careless word will be brought to light, and there will be justice. Every sin must be paid for. There is no drop the charges. All sin will be punished, will be destroyed, either on the head of Jesus Christ or on those who refuse to accept the offer of salvation and their damnation.
But all sin will be paid for. In Islam, it's simply pardoned or not pardoned.
What does the end times, because they believe that there is going to be an end time. Jesus comes back from what I read. They know that Jesus will come back, and that's a sign of the end times, but it's not how Scripture talks about him coming back.
He's not going to ride on a horse with the robe dripped in blood and his swords. What's the name?
I didn't get it. It starts with an M. But basically, Jesus isn't the returning king.
He returns. He's just like a sign of what's to come.
He returns, and then he points to the true Savior, basically. It's really weird, because John MacArthur painted a very vivid picture distinction between our end times, our revelation, and their end times.
And their Savior almost matches perfectly to our Antichrist. Oh, yeah, that's what you were saying earlier. It's wild. Jesus, in their scenario, is almost like the false prophet that points to the Antichrist.
Isn't that crazy how opposite it is? And if we can, can we end on this and then start on our game? Okay, so what she read in the Quran earlier was talking about if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you will go to hell.
That is that unpardonable sin. So what's funny about how you become saved in the Christian faith, and this is Romans 10, 9, if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
So it's literally, they are saying, if you believe that, you are going to hell. But that is what Christianity calls us to do.
But the Quran says we are to obey the gospel. So what is it? Yeah, exactly. The Quran says we have to obey the gospel. That one verse, that's, by the way, Surah 547. Surah, S-U-R-A-H. Surah. Surah.
Sure, you're doing a great job. 547. You speak Spanish, not Arabic. Yeah, yeah. You say it with confidence, no one knows. Surah 547.
There's many that will know. But it's fine. Unless a Muslim gets on here. Give us some grace, please. A little grace. I mean, even if he's a Muslim, he may not speak Arabic, so he might not know.
Well, I mean, but they recite prayers in Arabic. They're supposed to. I'm just saying. Very interesting stuff. All right. So look, guys, listen. What verse did you read? I'm sorry. This was Romans 10.
So what do the Muslims do about Paul and his writings?
Yeah, obviously, same thing. For the most part, they reject it. They say it's not God's word. It was added on to it, and it changes. It changes the message of Jesus. Like, it changes the message of Jesus.
It's not part of the gospel. But, I mean, like I said, they just cut up the New Testament and take out the parts they like, and that's just what they do. So they, like, I don't know, like five books out of the New Testament.
Only a few verses from those books. Yeah. Like I said, there is so little detail about Jesus in the Koran. Whoever wrote it seems to have very little knowledge of what Matthew through Revelation says.
Very little. What they know about Jesus could be known about anyone living anywhere close to that region of time if they had never read any of it. He was born of Mary, and then he died by Roman crucifixion.
So basically just, like, word-of-mouth stuff that was around in that time.
It's what it seems like, but, you know, who knows. And we know, like, we know Jesus was at least well-known at least probably to Rome because, I mean. I mean, by that time, by 300, the Roman emperor was a Christian, and that became the official religion of the Roman Empire not long after that.
Right, but, I mean, even while Jesus was just even alive up to his crucifixion, I mean, already he was well-known. Well, he became very well-known throughout that whole region because, in fact, the Pharisees started saying something like, the whole world's going after him.
In other words, that's how many people it seemed. Hey, guys, look, we're about to move on to our game. Before we do, I just want to say to anyone listening to this, our job is not to, our desire is not to put anybody down or make anyone sound stupid.
Our desire is to share the truth.