Islam | Season 4 episode 4

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00:02
Welcome back to the Point Taken Podcast, or should I say, welcome shoulder, everybody, because backs get too much credit.
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And some of you are just now getting that joke, and you've been watching this for years. That's what's so incredible about people.
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It's just, they'll go so long without getting a joke. I am Josiah, this is Anna, that's
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Jonathan. He prefers John, which is why we call him Jonathan. That's Elena. Welcome to the
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Point Taken Podcast, where we make and take spiritual and biblical truths, and chat it up. Now today, we have
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Islam. Now let's just go over just a couple ground rules, people. First off, someone who practices
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Islam is called a Muslim, or a Muslim. Muslim is not the religion, that is a person that practices
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Islam. Everyone got it so far? So like Christian for Christianity. Exactly. See, it's not that hard, right?
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It's pretty simple. So it's not the religion of Muslim, it's Islam. And a
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Muslim, or a Muslim, is someone who practices it. So we got a lot to talk about today. And this started mostly because of a girl,
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Anna here, doing her thing. We did apologetics last week, and then she's like, hey, let's just go ahead and do a whole thing on Islam.
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So that's what we're here to do. So first thing we want to do is, what is Islam? But I forgot.
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What? Are we doing a game beforehand or afterwards? Oh, um. You want to do it at the end? Let's do it now. Are you going to do it now?
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Let's take a vote. Yeah, let's go ahead and do it now. I say... What do you want to do? I say wait, after.
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Wait, after? Yeah, like after the... Normally like 197? After we're done with Islam.
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After food or restaurant? Topic. Got it. Okay. You know what? Anna's in charge. We'll do it afterwards.
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Elena got outvoted and John was of no help. So here we go, guys. So Islam.
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What is it? So what do we know about Islam? Or maybe what are some impressions of Islam, false or correct?
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Someone say something. So John, what is most people's thought process when they hear the word
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Islam? Middle East. Middle East. You know what's amazing about that? I think it's exactly right.
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There are far more Muslims outside of the Middle East than there are inside the Middle East.
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Now that's a little misleading because like for example, a country like India where 40 % of the country is
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Muslim still makes it the third most Muslim country in the world. That's how many people live in India, if you can get that.
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Indonesia is number one and I believe Saudi Arabia is number two and that's because I think it's 98 % of the nation is
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Muslim. Wow. But John's right. Most people, if they're honest, when they think of Islam, they think of the
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Middle East. But again, India has more Muslims in it than most
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Middle Eastern countries. What else do people think of? People a lot of times think of terrorism. People think of radical extreme terrorism.
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I think of Ramadan. Yeah. Ramadan. Yeah. They actually just finished Ramadan, I think.
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Yeah. We passed a Muslim school going to and from work and they were out for like a month. Let me first, because our first question is what is
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Islam? And if I may, I'm going to start with jihad and then you can bounce off there and we can just bounce off each other.
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Okay, guys. Many of us, when you hear the word jihad, you think of some radical terrorism.
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You think of some extremist group. The word jihad is the
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Arabic word for struggle. And at this part, I am in total agreeance with our
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Muslim friends. I won't call them Muslim brethren, but our Muslim friends. There are several types of jihad, but the most important is the inner personal jihad, the struggle, the fight to please
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God, to please Allah, if you will, as opposed to one's own desires. That is the prime motivation of what jihad means.
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It's the inner struggle that you're supposed to fight against your wants, needs, and desires to please
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Allah, okay? It is loosely, loosely the idea of sanctification in Christianity, where there is a battle between the flesh and the spirit.
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Now, it's very loose. Don't misunderstand. But the idea behind it, that there is an inner struggle, is part of that.
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When it comes to Islam, I had a friend for many years who
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I was teaching English to. She was from what she would call Palestine, what I would call Israel.
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I miss her a lot, actually. But she got her driver's license here in the United States, and citizenship and all that stuff helped her learn
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English. She lived very close to the church. One time, I went into her home, and we read the
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Quran together. Now, for those of you who do not know, for many parts of the world, the primary standard belief is that the
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Quran is inspired by Allah only in the original Arabic, so that if you are reading it in any language translated from Arabic, it's not
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God's word anymore. And then, a further group there would say it is blasphemous to translate the
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Quran into any language of an Arabic. There are countries in the world, right this second, that you would get the death penalty if you were caught with an
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English Quran. So what's on your lap? What is on my lap, if I went to many countries in the world right now, would get me killed.
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Now, that's not fear -mongering, that's a fact. But, that is not universal.
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Like I said, I read this right here, oh, it was not this one, it was hers,
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I forgot, with her in her home. We read some accounts out of, well,
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Genesis, if you will. We washed our hands before we read it. She believed that was a sign of respect.
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I did not mind that at all. We washed our hands before we read it, and of course, for those of you who are not familiar with a lot of Semitic languages, because they read right to left, same as Hebrew, by the way, so her
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Quran, like, yes, so we opened it like this, and we read the first two pages, and there was, hers did not have
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English in it, but she translated it for me, so we read together. Anyway, yeah, that's a little bit about what
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Islam is, go ahead. Well, were we going to go into the pillars? Well, yeah,
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I guess I should give a little history about it. Aren't there two different sects? Like the Sunnis? Well, there's way more than two.
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Like two main sects. Sunni and Shiite is what most people would say. Yeah, real quick on that, though, so you said that, like, if you translate the
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Quran into a different language, it's blasphemy, right? Is it the same if you, like, your friend who is reading it in the original language and then translating it, what would be the difference?
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Some of them would say she should not do that, but she would say it's okay because she is translating it, and though it's less than God's word, she's revealing the truth of Allah to me, who cannot speak
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Arabic, that's what they would say. So she still read the Quran in Arabic. Now, again, that's not universal.
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There are many Muslims in the world today that will read it in translated languages publicly on YouTube, so don't misunderstand what
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I'm saying. But one thing that you said, it was when she translated it, it becomes a lesser version of...
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Yes. So his word is not good then?
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It's only good in one language. It's only good, but even if it's not translated, yeah, that's interesting.
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I think if I had pressed her on that, I was not... I think she would say it's okay to translate it.
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She's just not supposed to say that. I was just curious, because that's interesting that... Because if we translate something...
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If it's faithfully translated. Well, right, but like ours to Hebrew to Greek and all of that stuff, it was translated.
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If it's faithfully translated, it's translated correctly, and it's still God's word. Right, and it's like we still have translations in here.
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It's like this is the Hebrew word for blah, blah, blah, and this means this. It goes beyond that.
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It goes beyond that if you think about it. That's interesting. The New Testament writers often quote from a
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Greek translation of the Old Testament and say, thus says the Lord. In other words, when faithfully translated, they saw it as still
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God's word. I guess I should have said this from the get, and then we can go into the pillars. A little bit about the history of Islam.
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The prophet Muhammad lived about 600 years after Jesus left planet
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Earth. There are many people today that in ignorance believe that Islam is older than Christianity.
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And I think if they were being honest, I know why they believe that. They just won't say it. They see in their brain the stereotypical idea of who they think a
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Muslim is, Middle East. They see that as a more tribal, ancient culture, so thus they believe that the religion that those people believe now is older than what someone in a more modernized society believes.
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That's what it is. They won't say that out loud to you, but that's what they would tell me in my office. Islam, Muhammad received his revelation 600 years after Jesus was born.
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Muhammad was mostly illiterate. Muhammad received these revelations over several years, and then later it was written down.
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Only he received these revelations. But who wrote it down, since he was illiterate?
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Well, scribes after him. I can't remember the guy's name. It was not Uthman. That was like three generations later.
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I can't remember the guy's name. But so did he tell the people? Yes. And then he wrote it? He received a series of revelations, starting with the
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Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. He received a series of revelations that only he received.
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He's the only one that received them, and then those were later written down. So that's, and I'll just be frank with you.
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Basically, the first few actions of Muhammad with his followers were war, were battles, were takeovers.
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Okay. So the first pillar is reciting the creed of Islam, which, quote, there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.
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And so I think they're supposed to say, is that a part of like their five prayers that they're supposed to say a day? Yeah. Yeah, but I don't,
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I don't know much about, you know, do they do it at the beginning or the end or whatever, but they do pray five times a day and they always face towards Mecca, whichever direction is closest to Mecca.
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So, you know, if you're in Paris, you'll face, I guess that'd be Southeast, you know, whatever.
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You always face as close, wherever the closest direction to Mecca is. But yes, always the creed.
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Well, here, second pillar involves prayer. The Muslim must recite prescribed, not just, you know, like heartfelt prayers, but prescribed prayers five times each day.
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Each, he must adopt a set of physical posture, such as standing, kneeling, and then hands facing to the ground.
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Yes. Okay. Yeah. That goes on there, but.
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I remember we had a neighbor when we lived in Collierville. It was a
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Muslim couple that had three little kids. So Elijah would play with their youngest. Our oldest son would play with their youngest.
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And they had a whole room that they had built on to the back of their house that had all the prayer stuff and everything that they would go and do that.
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See, I think that's beautiful. It was, it was very, very pretty. Beyond that, they were, the wife there, we spoke
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English. She was from Jordan and she was one of the most hospitable people.
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And boy, could she make some Turkish coffee. If you've never had it, that is the best coffee on the face of the planet.
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I bet you would really like that. Oh my goodness. The strongest coffee in the world. There is much, there is much in the Quran, not all, but much in the
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Quran that would agree with the biblical idea of hospitality. Right. Going back to the prayers though, the thing that got me, it's they would recite five prescribed prayers.
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Yeah. Mm -hmm. It's not like about a relationship. It's about a ritual.
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It's about the routine of it all. And the religion. They had actually a clock that would chime whenever it was time to pray.
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Well, and they say that, oh, and I saw that Nabeel Qureshi guy that we were talking about earlier. He said that like in certain parts of town, you can hear the mosques like bells going off and they would like want to compete with each other.
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So like one would go off, I think at like some ungodly time of morning, like 4 a .m. And then, but they would try to compete who would get the first bell ring essentially.
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So they had times like he said that his dad ended up waking him up in the middle of the night. And he's like, to pray is better than sleep.
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And he's like, as a kid, I remember hearing that. And he's like, shut up, dad. Like I want to sleep. Sleep is better than prayer right now.
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So the third pillar is the religious duty to observe the month of Ramadan like we had mentioned.
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And so. For those who don't know, that's a fasting. Yes. But it's only from sunup to sundown that they're fasting.
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And then usually they have like these big feasts like at the nighttime. I'll say this. I'll say this about the commitment of some of our
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Muslim friends. Not all. Like a month. But some of our. I'll give you an example. There is a town in Michigan.
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Oh man, I wish I could remember this one. This was 15 or so years ago, where 98 % of the town is
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Muslim. 98. Ramadan, because if y 'all don't know, they use a lunar calendar.
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So much like the Jews do. So because it's a lunar calendar, Ramadan obviously changes year to year.
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Because it's a 360 day year as opposed to 365 or 366. So this particular year,
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Ramadan was in August, which is when the high school football team did two a days. If you don't know what two days are, it's where you practice two times during the day.
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This is the commitment. You ready? For that month, practices were at like 1 a .m.
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and 4 a .m. to avoid. Because if you go practice in the sun with no water, you're going to die.
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Yeah. Right? So they did it in the middle of the night out of commitment to what they believed to be
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God's desire for their life. And so the. I'm sorry, go ahead. Well, I'll just say this. I've said something similar about the
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Jehovah's Witness. People with far less hope, even if their system of belief is true, with far less hope than what we have and far less promise that they are of God's good graces, with far less security for eternal future.
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They often do more for less hope and less security than we do for blessed promises that are assured in Jesus.
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I mean, it is sobering, it's sobering. Is that possibly out of a very human sense of we want to be able to, in any small way, participate in our salvation?
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I mean, I suppose so, but. Because it is a works -based.
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Absolutely. It is a works -based system, and that's possible. But I've just got to think.
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I've just got to think that that level of commitment, even if you remove that aspect of it, that level of commitment, because they still believe, they would say, that salvation is all grace of Allah.
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So they still believe he is working in you to enable you to do X, Y, and Z. But only in,
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I mean, but only in words, because if you have that much realistic and works -based in your salvation, it's,
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I mean, it's built in. So, I mean, if you look at it, Christianity is really the oddity, right?
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Well, without a doubt. Because we are, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, we are the only faith that is completely without works for salvation.
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Now we are expected to bear fruit and don't get be gone. And to be obedient. Right. But it has nothing to do with salvation.
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That's true. So that really makes Christianity the oddity out of the rest of the world. Without a doubt.
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Right. Without a doubt. Okay. Fourth pillar is essentially they're required to give 2 .5 % of their earnings.
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So it's like their form, I don't want to say tithing because it's not a tenth, but, you know, giving. The fifth pillar is that of Hajj, H -A -J -J, which is the pilgrimage to Mecca.
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And so they were, like every Muslim is required to make this pilgrimage at least once in their life.
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Correct? Correct. But what do they do if they can't? So long as they're financially and medically capable of it.
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There are financial and medical provisions for, ways around that sounds, but I don't remember what they are, but it's ironic.
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This just made me think of this. There is a passage in what's called the
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Didache, an early, early, early Christian writing.
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I don't remember how early. I want to say just a few decades after Jesus left. I want to say maybe, maybe as much as a century, but it's about what to do if a person cannot be submerged in baptism.
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Now what's funny is there are Christians today that believe that's not what Jesus and John the
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Baptist taught, that it's supposed to be some immersion. But it talks about, there's this whole thing, because think about the practicality of this.
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Because some of these people were living in towns where there was not a body of water big enough to dunk somebody in.
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There wasn't a river. There wasn't, I mean, you think about that part of the world, that'd be often. It talks about pouring a cup over their head.
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It talks about what to do if they're, if they're medically can't. So there's like all these provisions and all that stuff. So there are provisions.
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I don't remember what they are, but every Muslim is supposed to make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their life, like you said. And I used to work with a couple of Muslims at a previous job, and they had been multiple times.
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One of them was from a very wealthy family. So it's like the more often you go, it's like you're better off,
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I guess, because you're doing something good multiple times. And like you said, their religion is very faith -based, or not faith -based, work -based.
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And the sixth one, even though there's only five pillars, this one's the extra, and this is the jihad that you had mentioned earlier.
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So that is like for the, the radical believers, would you say?
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No. Or that is just... So jihad, they would define in several different ways.
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It means struggle. So there is a... So this one says, the obedience to the call of jihad may be interpreted as the internal struggle, like you said, or external defending of Islam, or both.
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Though the term evolved over the last ages of modern Muslim apologists to often assert a softer side, throughout most of history today, jihad primarily connotes that warfare is spiritual significance.
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So radical extremists will take that to mean defending Islam against unbelievers, against infidel means without faith.
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But most Muslims today would interpret that jihad as an inner struggle spiritually between what we would call the desire between flesh and obeying
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God. So the radical is more... We are against every other religion, we are struggling with them, instead of it's an inner struggle.
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100%. 100%. That's exactly right. You want to get on Muhammad? Yeah. Our guy
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Muhammad here. Our guy Mo. By the way, as of 15 years ago, Muhammad was the most common name in the world.
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I believe it. I can tell you why, because it can be used as a first name and a last name. I was about to say, at the same time, Muhammad, Muhammad.
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No, seriously. It seems to me that 9 out of every 10 Americans that convert to Islam change their name to Muhammad.
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A Muhammad Ali? Yeah, 100%. I mean, it seems that way. It's not always true. Alright, so we wrote prophecy of Muhammad in the
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Bible, and we should have put it in quotes. Quote, unquote prophecy. Because it's not actually a prophecy about Muhammad, but I guess
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I have to. So guys, let's everybody, just real quick, grab your phone, whatever.
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Let's go to John 14. John chapter 14. If you're driving right now listening to this, do not go to your phone, but for the rest of you.
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I just want to quickly show you something. If I were to say, Josiah, give me one reason to not believe
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Islam is the absolute truth, it would probably be this, what we're about to point out.
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It would probably be this. I don't think, I think this is insurmountable. I think a third grader could, and I'm not trying to be rude.
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Much like I don't think anyone can honestly defend the idea of secular evolution,
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I don't think anyone can defend this. John 14, starting in verse 18,
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I'm sorry, starting in verse 16. This is Jesus speaking to his disciples.
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This is the last week of his life, or so they thought, and he said, I will ask the father and he will give you another helper.
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Maybe your Bible would say counselor or advocate. That is paraclete, to be with you forever, even the spirit of truth.
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Okay, I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you. They believe that what you're about to read in John 14, 15, 16, the paraclete, the counselor, the advocate, the comforter, is a prophecy about Muhammad 600 years later.
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Even though it says forever? Yes. Okay. Because his words are with us forever. Now, if you press them and say verse 26 clearly says, but the helper, the
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Holy Spirit, the father will send in my name, they will tell you that part is corrupt and has been added in.
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They will, they'll go on, because Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit for three chapters, right? A lot of this is about him.
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In fact, if you go in chapter 16, it says, yeah, when the spirit of truth comes, verse 13, he will guide you in all truth.
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He won't speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears, he will speak and declare it to you. He goes on, does his thing there.
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But back in chapter, yeah, here it is, chapter 16, verse 7, nevertheless,
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I tell you the truth. It's to your advantage. I'll go away for, if I don't go away, the helper will not come to you. And if I go,
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I will send him to you. Now, they believe this is a prophecy about Muhammad. Okay.
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Now, Muhammad, 600 years after this was written, shows up in the desert and claims to have a revelation from God that only he can interpret.
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I heard a Christian in a debate with a Muslim worded this way one time, and I think this is well -worded.
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Maybe if any Muslims listen to this, just put yourself in my shoes for a minute, in my boots that make me taller.
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I wasn't going to say anything. This is what you're asking me to do. You're asking me to take that passage, which says it's about the
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Holy Spirit, say that part is corrupted, and then say that a man 600 years later has a vision from God that only he can interpret, and that's a fulfillment of this, and I'm supposed to believe that is
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God's word. Imagine, imagine, if 600 years, so put yourself in my shoes, 600 years after Muhammad prophesied, 600 years, if some dude had a vision that only he could interpret and said that he was from Allah, would you believe him?
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Every one of them will tell you no. Every one of them will tell you no. But that's what they're asking us to do, and I don't think they realize that.
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That's what they're asking us to do. So here's what's incredible. Every online
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Islamic resource I find, when trying to talk to Christians about this passage about Muhammad, will say that the
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Bible itself is corrupted, but portions of it have the truth in it.
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But how do we know which portions of those are true? They would say that which agrees with the
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Quran. It's the most circular reasoning I've ever heard in my life. They would say, they will use atheistic arguments to debunk the
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Bible, but then say that these nuggets of it are true, like this prophecy, quote unquote, of Muhammad.
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Can I have the Hector hat? Yeah. I have a question. So for those of you who don't know, or listen and don't watch, the
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Hector hat, when someone puts it on, means they're about to say something that's clearly untrue, and they're marking that by having a
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Hector hat. So my question is, do we not do that as Christians with the book of Enoch?
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How so? I've heard Christians who are very sound in their faith.
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Why is this wet? Hector hat? I don't know. I have questions. Oh no.
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I didn't do it. Oh no. It's fine. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. It wasn't me.
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I didn't spill anything over there. Anna's baby bottles were over here earlier. I didn't spill it. They're intact over there.
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Oh my goodness. But I have heard Christians say that Enoch is not a...
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Canonical. Is not in the canon of Scripture, for obvious reasons. There are a lot of parts of it that are not, that do not line up with Scripture.
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But there are parts of it that speak about things that are in the Bible in more detail.
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So we take that as more of a truth, I guess.
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Or more of like, okay, we can read this and kind of get more information out of it. Would be a better way to put it. Like as a supplemental text? Supplement.
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There we go. That's a better word. Truth was not the word to use there. I would say that just because, like, alright.
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Just because, say the history books in our schools, right. The history books we learned growing up, okay.
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Just because they're not in the Bible doesn't make them untrue, right. We can learn a lot about, even like, say the time of Jesus, from Roman documents.
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Or Roman historians, stuff like that. That we would not get from the
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Bible. It doesn't make those texts wrong necessarily. It's that we can't confirm that that was from Christ.
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They're not, what's the word I'm thinking of? Inspired. Inspired. But it's not, to Alaina's point, to make sure no one missed it.
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The difference is, so what we are saying is that God's word is the
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Holy Scriptures. We are saying, of course, there can be true things in many books, okay.
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That's not the same thing as saying, well, that means God's word is
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Thay -ah -nu -stahf. God breathed in pages 7 -9 of that history book. We're not saying that.
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We're just saying page 7 -9 is true. What the Muslim is saying is, no, no, no. God's word, the word of Allah, is present in parts of the gospel.
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Okay. Yeah, yeah. I get that now. And God's word must be extracted from all the mess.
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That is not what we're saying. We're saying the Bible is infallible and errant. No other book is. No other book is.
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Right, right. And maybe that's worth, just real quick, inerrant means without error. There are other books that are inerrant.
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Now listen before someone, just listen to me for a minute. Inerrant means without error.
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Well, there are children's books that are four pages long that do not have an error in it. Okay.
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Everyone following me on that? Those books are not infallible. Infallible means incapable of error.
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So if I had a student in my Spanish class when I was teaching public school who made a 100 on their test,
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I would say their test was inerrant. I would not say that student is infallible. Because just because they didn't make an error today on the test does not mean they are infallible, as they proved next week on the quiz or something like that, right?
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So when you say the scripture is inerrant and it's infallible, it's incapable of error because God is its author.
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Thus, it cannot err. What the Muslim is saying is the scripture contains parts of God's word in the gospel, and that must be extracted out.
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That's a different thing than saying, oh, there's a true statement in the book of Enoch or Tobit or whatever.
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Good question. All right. I just don't get how they can even read verse 16 of John 14 where it says, and I will ask the
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Father, and he will give you another helper to be with you forever. It's not saying that helper's word will be there forever.
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It says the helper will be there forever. Is that scripture in here? Like translated in here?
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I was going to ask that, yeah. Is John 14 in there? No, because I don't believe Muhammad ever thought of that idea.
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I believe that's a modern thought. Okay, I didn't know if this was something that they changed in their book and took out.
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Don't they have like different— Okay, let me ask you this. Have you ever read this? No, that's why I want to borrow it. Have you ever read this?
31:03
I have read like sections of it. I've read like certain verses. I am not certain, and I've heard other
31:09
Christians say this, and I agree. I am not certain that Muhammad had read the gospels. I am not certain that he was even aware of what
31:19
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John said. Even though 600 years after Jesus, they were well circulated by that point.
31:25
I am not sure that he's even aware. He knows things about him. For example, basically every reference to Jesus calls him the son of Mary.
31:33
He's aware of certain things. I'll tell you what. Are we ready to read some of these?
31:39
Okay. Who should read it, Elena or you? It doesn't matter. Well, it does matter a little bit.
31:46
All right, Elena, you're going to read it. Jonathan, will you hand that to her? All right, you're going to go to Sura, which is chapter.
31:52
You're going to go to Sura 4. Here's what I want to do. I want us to read, not read into for ourselves, what the
32:02
Quran says about Jesus and us go from there. Can you all mind if we do that? All right, because that's what we're going to do anyway, right?
32:11
It's our podcast. We get to do whatever. Yeah, thank you. All right, this is about the crucifixion. Now, just listen to what the
32:17
Quran says about the crucifixion. Sura 4, verse 157.
32:22
They have very long chapters. By the way, the Quran is only 114 chapters. It's very short compared to the
32:27
Bible. So, verse 157, go ahead. Okay, so did everyone catch that?
33:03
They, meaning the Romans, the Jews, did not kill Jesus. Now, it says, though they appeared to kill him.
33:10
There's two main schools of thought among Muslim apologists on this passage. Though it appeared that they killed him.
33:16
The traditional one is that he did not die, but fainted. That's why when they went to break his legs and said he was already dead, that he actually wasn't.
33:25
So that his resurrection was not a resurrection, but an awakening. Okay? That is the traditional.
33:30
Wake up, sleepyhead. Yeah, that's the traditional view. I know, that's just ridiculous. I guess pass out, however you want to word it, the swoon theory, if you will.
33:38
The other interpretation of that is when it says, though it appeared that they killed him, means someone looked like him.
33:46
Someone that looked like him was on the cross. Not him directly, but someone that looked like him.
33:51
But what's amazing is there is no historical evidence for either of those.
33:57
The Romans knew how to kill people. They were pretty good at it. Well, and that's what I was mentioning to you.
34:02
They had a certain procedure for crucifixion specifically.
34:09
If I can get this out. They started with the flogging. With the cattails and all of that.
34:15
Jesus, in this point, was unrecognizable. Okay? They do that so that the person does not have enough strength to fight back when they nail them to the cross.
34:25
And they didn't make all of the other people carry the cross. They made Jesus do that specifically because he was king of the
34:30
Jews. And so they do that. Get them up on the cross. Nail the person to the cross.
34:36
And they're so tired, so exhausted, so beaten that they don't have enough strength to really breathe well.
34:43
Then you nail them to the cross. And so they can only, was it breathe in and can't really exhale because of the way?
34:49
You have to pull yourself up. Right. And then they would break their legs or do other things.
34:56
So they can't push off the nail to get a breath. Right. And so it was very specific. A very specific procedure that they had.
35:04
They had it down to a science. That's why they were so successful at it. The irony. So the fact that you think that someone can faint from that and survive that is ridiculous.
35:13
The irony is it says anyone who disagrees with this is full of conjecture and doubts. There's no evidence that Jesus did not die.
35:22
All of the contra evidence is that he did die. There's no evidence that a twin, if you will, was put in his place.
35:29
But they say, the Quran says that anyone who believes different than this is full of doubts. But no one believed that until Muhammad received that revelation 600 years later.
35:39
Didn't they think it was Judas too? Yes. Yes. A lot of them say it was Judas. Thank you for reminding me.
35:44
A lot of them say it was Judas. And they think the passage in Acts about him falling out off the tree and spilling out his insides is a reference to that.
35:54
You're exactly right. But with that, since Judas was the one that betrayed
36:00
Jesus, wouldn't he have at some point during all the trials and everything go, hey,
36:05
I'm not that guy? You would think. That ain't me. You would think. Do they believe the part of the
36:11
Bible when Jesus is going through all the trials and they say, I am whoever you say I am? Oh, I am who
36:17
I am. Who do you say I am? I don't know what they would say about that. Right.
36:22
Because he doesn't actually like stand up for himself, anything like that during his trials. You would think if it was
36:27
Judas who had already betrayed Jesus. No, that's not me. No, no, no. It's the other guy. Remember the guy
36:33
I pointed out to you in the garden? Yeah. I got the shackles for all that stuff. But my thing is with the crucifixion, how many eyewitness accounts were there for the crucifixion?
36:44
Like at least 500. That's what the scripture says. 500 people saw him after the resurrection at one time.
36:50
It was more than 500 but at one time. And so how do 500 people think that somebody survived that?
36:58
That's what I don't understand is because of how brutal crucifixion is as a process. How you could faint from that?
37:05
Like how that would even be like a possibility of how they use it. Do you know what
37:10
I'm saying? Yes. I'm about to say it like is that making sense? We have more historical evidence for Jesus than we do any other first century
37:26
Palestinian except one. And that would be Josephus. And that's because he wrote his own stuff.
37:34
But yeah. The idea behind it is basically it's the same old thing no matter which religion you go to.
37:44
New revelation. Only one person can interpret it. Where it disagrees with the scripture, the scripture is wrong.
37:50
And you just have to take our word for it. Sarah 5. Just do a short one.
37:56
Just do verse 17 please. 17. That's short.
38:01
All right. Maybe I'm wrong. Keep going. 5 .17? Yeah. Make sure it's 5.
38:08
Yep. Okay. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is
38:14
Christ. All right. Stop there. The son of Mary. I just want to real quick.
38:21
There is an implication there. Would you read it one more time? Just what you just read. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is in Christ the son of Mary.
38:33
Allah being God. In blasphemy they say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.
38:40
Right? The implication is that there are Christians who are saying that Jesus is
38:45
God. You follow me on that? In blasphemy they say. It's an interesting implication because it's supposed to be a modern invention.
38:56
At any rate, in blasphemy. So anyone who believes that Jesus is God or even the son of God is committing blasphemy.
39:04
So just make sure you understand that as we move forward. That is their view of that view of Christianity. Verse 47 is my favorite.
39:12
Of five? Yes. We only have two more. Let the people of the gospel judge by what
39:19
Allah has revealed therein. Stop there. Let the people of the gospel judge based on what
39:28
Allah has revealed therein. So what that verse is saying.
39:33
She can go on but it says the same thing. What that verse is saying is this. The people of the gospel. That's their version of Christians.
39:41
Should judge Allah based on what he has revealed therein.
39:46
Keep going Elena. If any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah has revealed.
39:52
They are no better than those who rebel. So if we do not judge
39:58
Allah based on what he has revealed in the gospel. Then we are no better than an unbelieving rebel.
40:05
So the Quran tells us to obey the gospel. Did everyone just hear that?
40:11
The Quran just told us to obey the gospel. Now of course they would jump in and say yes. But parts of the gospel are corrupted.
40:17
And I would say which parts. And they would say the parts that don't already agree with the Quran. That is the most circular reasoning that has ever existed.
40:24
Especially if the Quran says you are supposed to believe the gospel. So here you go. Are you ready? To all my
40:30
Muslim friends listening right now or will ever listen to this. I am begging you. Even if this is 30 years from now and YouTube is still a thing.
40:36
Just listen to me for just a minute. Do you understand? The Quran is telling me to obey
40:41
Jesus. The Quran just said to obey the gospel. Well that is what I am trying to do.
40:47
The Quran is telling me to obey the New Testament. To obey Jesus.
40:54
To believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and life. And no man comes to the Father except through him. To believe that the wage is the sin of death.
41:01
But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. The Quran just told me to obey that. So in a sense
41:07
I am obeying the Quran. Because the Quran just told me to obey the gospel. Everyone follow that?
41:12
Can you read that one more time Elena? Can I read 46? Sure. And in their footsteps we sent
41:19
Jesus the son of Mary. Confirming the law that had come before him.
41:26
We sent him the gospel. Therein was guidance and light. And confirmation of the law that had come before him.
41:34
A guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the gospel judge by what
41:41
Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by the light of what
41:48
Allah hath revealed. They are no better than those who rebel. So Jesus came to fulfill the law.
41:54
We agree with that by the way. I wonder where Muhammad got that idea. So Jesus came to fulfill the law.
42:03
If anyone does not believe what Jesus said in the gospel. They are no better than an unbelieving rebel.
42:10
Yes sir. Okay. It's wild.
42:17
I've only got one more for the Quran Anna. Well I wanted to go back on the one that you read before.
42:22
Go ahead. The blasphemy one? Yeah. Verse 17. Can you read it one more time for me? In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is
42:33
Christ. The son of man. Okay so. I have to finish the sentence. Oh that's okay. So for. So who believes that Jesus is
42:41
God? You're committing blasphemy. Right. Our camera guy had two hands on the camera and didn't raise his hand.
42:47
But I think. But luckily God weighs the intentions of the heart. So I think we're okay. But just to be clear. But so with that specific scripture or verse in the
42:56
Quran. It's called verse. Yeah. Let's not call it scripture. They're quote unquote scripture. Yeah. Air quotes.
43:02
If you can't see me. That verse. Specifically states that Christ is not the son of God.
43:10
100%. That is blasphemy. That is the unforgivable sin. If you believe that you will not go into heaven.
43:16
They say. Oh. Oh. Oh. You're saying yes. If you believe that like if. So if you believe that Jesus is the son of God.
43:23
Yeah. Then that is blasphemy. That is the unforgivable sin. You will not go into heaven. My friend. My friend.
43:29
Who went and had dinner with. And read with her and all that stuff. She would be considered a liberal
43:35
Muslim. By their standards. Of course by their standards. But anyway. Do you know of her family.
43:43
You said her family was like first generation. Her family did not live over here. She was over here by herself. Okay. Okay. She was a western.
43:51
Muslim. She moved. An Americanized. She moved here. Okay. I think to most would be obvious.
43:57
Yeah. Let's just leave it at that. But. She. She. Told me.
44:05
She goes. I do not believe this by the way. This is what she said. She said Josiah. You know.
44:10
We really believe the same thing. Muslims and Christians. The only difference is. The only difference is.
44:16
We don't believe Allah has a son. And I said. Well that's not the only difference. But yeah.
44:21
Yeah. It's a whole. It's just like opening a can of worms. I have a question on that.
44:26
Okay. If they say that Jesus is who he says he is. In the gospel. Then how do they get that he was just a prophet.
44:34
And not. The son of God. Exactly. Because they don't believe the gospel is Matthew through Revelation.
44:39
Because they only. Yeah. It's only in certain spots. They believe it's the parts. Yeah. God's word must be plucked out. Of the
44:44
Christian Bible. And it's only what matches up in there. Exactly. So where do they get that he's a prophet. And not the son of God.
44:50
Ooh that's a good question. What do you mean? How do they. Because Jesus is considered a prophet. Because the Quran says he is. But where do they get that he's a prophet.
44:56
Which by the way in a sense he is. Yeah. In a sense. Well yeah. In a sense. But like. They believe in many.
45:02
The divinity is not. They believe in many of the biblical. Figures as prophets. Abraham. Yeah. Of course they believe
45:09
Ishmael was the one on the. Sacrificial rock. Not Isaac. Abraham. Okay. Ishmael.
45:14
Moses. Moses. Jonah. Job. David. Yeah. Jesus. Muhammad. They believe
45:19
Muhammad is the final prophet. They believe. Believe revelation has ceased. And it ceased with Muhammad.
45:27
But there's no indication. Other than a watered down argument from John 14. That Muhammad was coming.
45:33
They gave no indication. There'd be further revelation. I mean. Do they have the book of Isaiah. Like.
45:39
Something that's like. Or David's writings. Do they count that as scripture? Like with Isaiah as much as they.
45:46
As much as he prophesies about Jesus as prophet. Coming and like how he's gonna die on the cross and all the stuff did they don't have anything
45:52
I don't know their specific view on the book of Isaiah, but remember they would not doubt that Jesus did come
46:00
Right and that he is the Christ, but if they would doubt that he is the Son of God Well, because Messiah means
46:06
Christ. Yes, correct. So what is Christ again anointed one? Okay, so that was
46:11
A prophet it couldn't in their mind. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so but there's no divinity in there
46:16
He was oh, and then I did read something. It's on Let me get the website. It's on why islam .org.
46:23
It talks about how Jesus was born miraculous Miraculously without a father so they acknowledge the virgin birth, but they state
46:33
That his birth was not a sign of his divinity, but just evidence of his unique status as one of God's greatest prophets
46:41
The Quran compares the birth of Jesus to the creation of Adam and God's eyes in this is a quote from 359
46:50
At the Quran in God's eyes. Jesus is just like Adam He created him out of dust said to him be and he was and so it talks about It's just not an indication
47:03
So three that's 359 in there And they also say and I want to ask you about this in a minute how he spoke in the cradle
47:13
They say that Jesus spoke from the cradle. Yeah, there's that was interesting. That was like it was very
47:21
We don't have a lot on Jesus until he was like what we have the story when he was 12 when he was born when he was like a toddler when
47:29
Yeah, the wise men came right and then he was 12 and then his ministry like when he was in his 30s, right?
47:34
Yeah, the quote you read is spot -on Jesus for all is that of Adam?
47:41
He's created him from dust then he said to him be and he was so yes You're exactly right. He sees the creation of Jesus the same as he does the creation of Wow Yeah, so Jesus was not born of Mary.
47:56
He was created out of dust No, he does was born in the same way that God created Jesus in other words father is what they're stating.
48:05
Oh, okay. Okay. I got you but it says that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and Impregnated her, you know, like whatever she was impregnated and then she was pregnant with Jesus So it's like how do they what's the
48:19
Holy Spirit there? But you know, that's it's like all of these things They just don't yeah to me
48:25
It might make sense to somebody else, especially if you're Muslim and I would love for you to comment This is why right as Christians Why do we believe what we believe?
48:36
Why we assured the Bible is God's Word because for example for example
48:42
Jehovah's Witness believe that Jesus Is the Archangel Michael?
48:48
Not God not the Creator Right. So there's always a watering down of who
48:56
Jesus is because there's a watering down of what his word is it's it's consistent across and again, again, this is not a
49:06
Let's beat up on the Muslims because they're wrong and stupid. This is a challenge
49:11
Okay, we are willing to ask why we believe what we believe So I'm asking
49:18
Muslims and remove cultural ties Remove because because my grandmom my granddad did why do you believe what you believe?
49:31
What evidence like why do you believe what you believe because if you are most honest with yourself
49:37
The revelation from God in your life comes from one source one single source
49:46
That then is commented on Fleshed out in commentaries and and and things like that through the
49:54
Uthman's following Muhammad But the revelation of God comes through one source now then through that one source you see the ability
50:03
To put on a lens. I thought I have my sunglasses on Here they are You then believe that you can use this as a lens through which to see
50:14
God's Word like some Nick Cage national treasure stuff through God's through the
50:20
Bible you would not view that as Logical as consistent as a worthwhile argument for any other area of your life
50:32
Can I not one can I comment something didn't like once the
50:37
Quran was written or like they found? Muhammad's things like after he'd been dead like however so many years the guy who then like wrote it
50:46
He pulled stuff out and like discarded it. Well, it wasn't even like his full writing that became the
50:52
Quran kind of okay, so the third Khalif Head if you will of Islam, that's not a fair term, but I can't think of a better way for it
51:05
Obviously in the couple generations after Muhammad's death found Variations now now everyone make sure
51:12
I want to be totally fair. There are 5 ,000 700 about Copies of the
51:18
New Testament. I'm gonna take on the Old Testament copies of the New Testament in Greek. I'm not referring to translations
51:23
I'm referring to the original languages that survived today now, obviously there have been Probably millions in the course of history, but that are still a lot that are still surviving today that have not been eaten by bugs or burned or Destroyed or whatever 5 ,700.
51:43
Okay in those 5 ,700 manuscripts there are variants
51:49
So for example, and I think it's ninety seven and a half percent of them are spelling So I'm not denying the existence of variants
51:57
This is why and we can do this on another podcast by the way It it it actually enhances my belief that God's Word has been preserved on the body of Bibles Sometimes we'll say some manuscripts say or something like that So I'm not denying the exist
52:14
I'm not saying the existence of variants proves that's not God's Word God decided to use regular means just like he decided to use sinful people to bring about his good purpose
52:23
God used regular human means to preserve his word. I understand that to supernaturally preserve his word
52:30
What happened what you're referring to is Uthman? found variants in the
52:35
Quran But Muhammad was dead And He didn't like that.
52:43
There were variants. He chose the version. He liked best and had every other version burned
52:51
So that the end result is it now this is true This is true what
52:57
I'm about to say you can pick up any Quran anywhere on planet
53:02
Earth In Arabic and it will say the exact same thing in the exact same word order people memorize the whole
53:11
Quran because it's much shorter than the Bible and That's been one of their main ways of preservation especially in societies that you know before printing presses and so on and so forth
53:24
But the reason they have that certainty is because we can't know the truth in other words.
53:30
The truth was traded for certainty We have no way of knowing if the
53:37
Quran We're holding is actually what Muhammad wrote because we burned all other possible copies to compare and contrast to you, right?
53:44
And so we so three three generations after Muhammad we burned all other copies
53:51
There are zero copies of that now so we have no way of knowing if the version
53:58
Uthman chose is Actually what Muhammad said and we will never know because all evidence was destroyed.
54:05
I Don't want to trade certainty for the truth.
54:10
I'd rather the truth. I want to know What John wrote and if that means that sometimes
54:17
I have to read a scribe spell the name Jesus without an extra You I know it's not in English in other words.
54:23
I want to know what John said There is no way any Muslim on planet Earth can look you in the eye and honestly say that they know they have what
54:32
Muhammad Wrote it's impossible. It's not possible So that's what you're referring to. Yeah Well, not really so look
54:41
What's that last one number six say? Oh, that was John's question. Well, did he already do we already do it?
54:47
Did he do a good job? I think I think you kind of covered it. It's um
54:54
If the Quran is 100 % correct How how is it that?
55:01
They see the Bible as having error and then How do they know what parts are corrupt and what parts only through really reading it through the lens of the
55:10
Quran? That's the only through reading it through the lens of the Quran That's sad. So where the the where the
55:17
Quran says X and the Bible says, you know this they go with that Yes, 100 % of the time.
55:23
Okay. Do we want to talk? I'm sorry No, don't know you were finishing a sentence and I interrupted you.
55:28
I still love you even though you know You did and So she was just dreaming it no,
55:39
I don't know why it was wet. So here we go guys. Here's what we're saying guys first off No Christian or Muslim out of fear should be afraid
55:52
Speaking of these things in my experience I have typically found that Muslims are quite ready to talk about their faith with you.
56:01
Oh for sure I have I have found that in my experience Would that be your experience? Yes They love answering questions
56:10
Yeah, at least the ones that I've talked to I have found that No, my experience with Muslims in America is is no different than what
56:18
I am told is the same abroad Quite willing to share their faith not ashamed not ashamed and are willing to even reason with you
56:30
See, I love that and I will say this
56:38
It's easy to pick on inconsistencies with their faith when they live in America, but I would say that I Have found some quite committed
56:55
I'm not I'm not denying quite committed quite intelligent
57:01
Faithful Muslims my qualm with them is I don't believe they can be consistent with their own premise that the
57:08
Quran is God's Word when It in of itself comes from a one single source that cannot be verified.
57:16
Whereas the contrast is God's Word Scripture God used 40 different writers on three different continents in three different languages
57:25
That all is consistent with itself. That is contrary to what we see in human nature We see inconsistency when people try to create the same thing.
57:33
So That's another big difference for me. Did you want to tie up? salvation like their version of salvation
57:44
John said it better than I'm going to what separates the message of the gospel
57:49
From other would -be salvific Systems is salvation and the gospel is solely by grace
57:57
Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness God did not wait for man to move closer to him.
58:06
God moved Could you imagine if he did wait for us to make the first move?
58:12
He'd still be I'm about to say nobody will be waiting. Nobody. I mean, that's that's but this all starts with the correct biblical anthropology
58:21
Idea of man is that man's heart is desperately wicked and that every one of us have chosen ourself over God It's not that we were morally neutral.
58:32
It's not that because we were born in sin of Adam that we
58:38
Have no fault in the matter. It's in spite of that every one of us chose ourself over God That's what
58:44
Isaiah 53 53 says we have all turned every one of us to our own way
58:51
That's one of the most damning sentences in the whole Bible. We've turned to our own way. My mom actually works with the
58:58
Muslim woman and She's talked to her about her faith and everything and she goes, okay.
59:04
Well, like so, how do you guys go to heaven? You know, she explained how Christians do And she's like, well, you know, everything is balanced on a scale
59:12
So like our good deeds are balanced on a scale versus like the bad things that we do And so at the end of our life, we just hope that the good deeds.
59:20
That's exactly right. There's no certainty Yeah, we hope and it's not the hope and assurance that we
59:26
Christians have but she's like it's the hope that you know Our good deeds will outweigh the bad deeds
59:31
However, she did say that some good deeds have like a higher score if you will
59:38
Versus you know, and that's but that's all up to Allah to decide. Well, that's but I would say that's what maybe less
59:45
Salvation and more like rewards in heaven Base, they would still call that grace because God has provided the means by which you can
59:55
Become excited on his side. Yeah, that's how you like get more There was actually one person in other words.
01:00:01
God does not owe you the means to get that is what they would say Yeah, there was actually one person who said
01:00:06
I don't I can't like quote You know give credit to who it's due But he had stated even if I and he was
01:00:13
Muslim even if I had one foot in heaven, I would still be unsure Because Allah can decide whether or not
01:00:21
I get in and like I said He can give you more favor for like one good deed versus other good deeds
01:00:28
And so it's very fickle and one thing I did want to know really quick. It was the list of attributes that they give for Allah or like the
01:00:38
The beautiful names for Allah which a lot of the times Muslims will memorize and use for worship kind of like we use
01:00:44
Yahweh and I'm Jehovah Jireh like all of those things But they stated that not one of those names for Allah is love or loving and in Scripture We have scripture that says
01:00:55
God is love Isn't that crazy? Oh, and then one of the other ones. What did I say was deceitful?
01:01:02
People's one of those I put him it's deceitful, but they justify that as being well if you're deceitful you plan for things you
01:01:10
You know make a plan in order to be deceitful. How am I gonna work this out? So they just say he's a planner premeditated.
01:01:17
I mean, right, but that's the thing It's like and I'm you know I'm reading this stuff and I was talking to my husband about it and I said just Like if I was not a believer if I just listed
01:01:27
Christianity and Islam side by side and looked at it I said I would have to go with Christianity.
01:01:32
There is no Assurance in the salvation with Muhammad and with Allah and all of that It's just like I just I would not have 100 % certainty in that and also
01:01:44
Nabil Qureshi like I had mentioned earlier He was a Muslim who ended up converting to Christianity some years ago
01:01:50
And he said when he was going through his conversion to Christianity He was looking for comfort
01:01:57
So he turned to the Quran because he was very upset. He knew what he had to do He knew what that would entail for a
01:02:03
Muslim to convert to Christianity And he said he looked to the Quran for comfort and there was not a single verse in the
01:02:09
Quran That he could turn to to get comfort. He's like, but when I opened scripture it talks about All sorts of comfort like God will take on The weight he will bear our weight like we can give
01:02:24
The burdens cast all your cares Yes, and like I'm sure one another's burdens and all that He was like there was not one verse in Quran about that without comfort and I'm like that is just really
01:02:35
Sad, but it's consistent with their view of redemption. Think about redemption Because what is redemption?
01:02:41
Redemption is God buying us back it reconciliation God bringing us back to a right step with him.
01:02:47
How does God do that? How does God reconcile us? Christ Through Christ on the cross, right?
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So in Islam there isn't a crucifixion of a savior
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It is simply in an Allah pardoning or not pardoning sin and it's him forgiving sin or not forgiving sin
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But that sin is never paid for it's simply dismissed charges are dropped
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Just think about the difference. This is a huge difference There was no one who served as the is the propitiation. That's exactly right.
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Okay sin in other words in other words in other words
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If someone wrongs somebody I can look them in the eye and say I promise you justice will come
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Justice somebody will be paying for that either that person who wronged you at the end of her life on Judgment Day or Through the propitiation area propitiating area.
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Oh goodness the substitution atonement of Jesus on the cross In Islam that's not true
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I'll let you the pardons or doesn't pardon and that person gets away with it. There is no
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Payment for that sin. Whereas the justice of God is the scales will balance
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Every deed the Bible says hidden or out loud Every deed every careless word
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Will be brought to light and there will be justice every sin must be paid for There is no drop the charges all sin will be punished will be destroyed either on the head of Jesus Christ Or on those who refuse to accept the offer of salvation in their damnation
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But all sin will be paid for in Islam. It's simply pardoned or not pardoned What does the
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End -times because they believe that there is going to be like Jesus in time
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Jesus comes back from what I'm from what I read They know that Jesus will come back and that's a sign at the end times, but it's not how
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Scripture talks about him coming back. He's not gonna ride on a horse with the robe dripped in blood and his sword
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But basically like Jesus isn't the returning King He's he returns.
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He's just and then He returns and then he points to the true
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Savior basically, it's it's really it's really weird because John MacArthur painted a very vivid picture distinction between like our end times our
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Revelation and and their end times and It almost like their Savior almost matches perfectly to our
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Antichrist. Oh, yeah That's what you were saying earlier. Yeah, it's it's it's really in like Jesus in their scenario
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It's almost like the the false prophet that points to It's not crazy how opposite it is.
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And if we can can we end on this and then start on our game? Okay, so What she read in the
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Quran earlier was talking about if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God like you will go to hell That is that Unpardonable sin, so what's funny about how?
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You become saved in the Christian faith and this is Romans 10 9 if you confess with your mouth
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Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. You will be saved
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So it's literally they are saying if you believe that you are going to hell, but that is what
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Christianity calls us to do But the Quran says we are to obey the gospel. So what?
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Yeah, yeah, exactly the Quran says we have to obey that that one verse that's by the way, sir 547 sir, uh, s you are a 8 sure, uh sir, uh 547
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Spanish not Arabic. Yeah. Yeah You say we're confidence. No one knows sir 547.
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There's many that will know I'm gonna say unless a Muslim gets on here. Give us some grace, please I mean even if he's a
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Muslim, he may not speak Arabic. So he might not know But they recite prayers in Arabic they're supposed to know
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I'm just saying All right. So look guys, listen, what verse did you read?
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I'm sorry. This was Romans 10 9 So what do you what do the Muslims do about Paul and his writings?
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Yeah obviously Same thing For the most part they reject it.
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They say it's not God's Word. It was added on to and it changes It changes the message of Jesus For like It changes the message of Jesus.
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It's not part of the gospel But I mean, like I said, they just cut up the New Testament and take out the parts They like and that's just what they do
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So they like I don't know like five books out of the out of the new test only a few only a few verses from those
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Books. Yeah, like I said There is so little detail about Jesus in the
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Quran Whoever wrote it seems to have very little knowledge of what
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Matthew through Revelation says very little What they know about Jesus could be known about anyone living anywhere close to that region of Tommy if they had never read any of it
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He was born of Mary and that he died by Roman crucifixion I mean, there's basically just like word -of -mouth stuff
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That's what it seems like but you know Who knows and we know like we know Jesus was at least well known at least probably to Rome because I mean
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I mean by that time by 300 the Roman Emperor was a Christian that became the official religion of the of the
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Roman Empire not long after that, right? But I mean even while Jesus was just even alive up to his crucifixion.
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I mean already he was well known He became very well known Throughout that whole region because it's in fact the
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Pharisee started saying something like the whole world's going after him In other words, that's how many people it seemed. Hey guys look
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We're about to move on to our game before we do just want to say to anyone listening to this our job is not to our desire is not to Put anybody down or does not make anyone sound stupid.