Truth in Love- Postmillennialism

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. This is Rob and you've got Dan back with us and we're so glad to have him back tonight. We are going to continue our talk on post Millennialism, it's gonna be a great conversation.

Hope you will stick around and join us. Welcome once again to the truth and love podcast almost said labor's podcast. Easy to get them confused and I'm glad I chose the right video this time. We had a smooth exit there.

We knew when it was coming and we had the new sound. It was fantastic. How are you doing, Dan? I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. How are you doing? I'm I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine. I'm I'm blessed and I'm more blessed than I realized and I just need to be thankful to God for All that he's he's done for me and I know you've got a lot on your plate.

Y 'all were expecting a new little one.

Not too long. Yep new little covenant member. That's right.

Hey, I'm not gonna argue with you our Our bet our video on baptism is going to come up soon enough. Well, we'll hash it out then. So tonight we're going to talk more about post millennialism and I this is a great conversation I have.

Of course Dan and I. I'm a Baptist. He's a Presbyterian we both agree at least on This portion of eschatology the idea of post millennialism and we we want to share it and discuss it in such a way that we would like to convince you to That it's biblical that it's from Scripture that we're not just pulling things out of the air and trying to to shoehorn it in to the Bible.

But we'd like to convince you of what we see in in Scripture and that would be post millennialism. Another good another reason I think it's a great conversation Dan is because I Think there's a lot of people out there still like me.

Who for the longest time? The only thing that I ever heard was there's gonna be a rapture. The end is near because of all the terrible things that we see around us. There's gonna be a time of tribulation.

Now there was the discussion. Are we gonna go through the tribulation or are we gonna be you know, raptured out before the tribulation there? I've heard that conversation before but That was it. That's all I ever heard and I I never knew there was other options for eschatology for end times.

Until later way later on. Did you have a similar experience? Yeah. Yeah even so.

In 2017 I was interviewing for a position as a youth pastor. And I just just talking with the pastor and I asked him I said, you know. So what is your eschatology just for fun, you know all millennial post millennial premillennial.

He goes, what do you mean? Post-tribulational or pre-tribulational so for a lot of folks the premillennial Understanding is the only one that that they have the only one that they know of. It's just that prevalent in our day.

That hasn't always been that way but in our in our day. It's the one that people know of it's the one that a lot of people Grew up with and there's a good reason for that, especially in conservative circles the Fundamentalist controversy back about a hundred years ago.

Largely the people who were on the correct side of that were dispensational. They help with fundamentals of the faith and so when people were looking around to see who is going to actually believe what the Bible says and These people believed in the fundamentals of the faith while a lot of people were rejecting it.

They said well We're on board. And so they went with those those folks and those folks had that dispensational Premillennial eschatology with it and Why not if they're right about the Bible they're right about Jesus the virgin birth and all that.

Why not? Why wouldn't they be why wouldn't they be right about this other stuff, right? So it makes sense, but We kind of want to challenge That notion just a little bit that just because somebody's right on one thing doesn't mean that they're right on all of it.

Although they're right on very good things to be right about. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and they were equating.

As their eschatology the the rapture premillennial dispensationalism with the fundamentals of the faith as. You know and tying those two together. Well, it's time I'm going on.

Absolutely, it became one of the tenets of the faith that if you didn't believe in a Dispensational premillennial understanding of of the end times and you were off base, but I don't think it started like that.

I think it started with people just wanting to make sure they were in a good solid Church. Yeah, they found who held to the fundamentals of the faith and a lot of those folks just happen to be dispensational, right?

Well, and there are people still out there today that hold hold that. Um. That eschatology as one of the fundamentals of the faith so much so that you know, they will they will unfriend you. You know, they will they will give you a what for because you believe something different.

You don't believe in that. I mean they hold it that strongly.

Yeah, there's even some in the independent fundamental Baptist circles that if you if you are mid-trib or post-tribulational rapture. They'll write you off as a heretic that's never going to see the doors of heaven and Just hey.

Hey now buddy. That's a step too far. Oh, yeah, people still believe in the same Christ that died on the cross for their sins. So we ought to be a little cherub a little bit more charitable right on those things.

You brought up a good question just a second ago. And I'll be curious to hear your response or how you would how you would respond to somebody who's having this concern. So. There's guys still putting out new books every so often.

About the end being near about the end times about the rapture pre pre-millennial dispensationalism. And and overall these folks are are good teachers and they teach, you know, they teach the gospel.

They teach well on many other issues. But we would say that we disagree with them on this particular point of eschatology. So you were talking about well if they're good on all these other things, why can't we trust them in eschatology?

How can you how can you say they're missing it? So badly on eschatology when they're so smart and such great teachers and they've been in the ministry for 20 30 40 50 years. How would you speak to somebody though?

That's you know, we're saying that about those men that they trust. Sure.

There's two two things number one thing that they have which caused them to be so right about so many things is I Would say the Spirit of God it says in Somewhere in the Bible New Testament, I think first John I could be wrong.

It says that nobody can say Nobody can bless the Lord except by the Spirit of God. No one can say that Jesus is Lord but except by the Spirit of God so People who have so much right they have no Jesus came to the earth born of a virgin died sinless Laid in the grave for three days rose again.

They believe in creation the prophets. That they believe they have the core of the faith locked down tight. I believe that's because they have the Spirit of God. Now there's some individual cases they may not but by and large God the Holy Spirit has preserved for his people.

The truth he has led his led the church into all truth. I mean through the scriptures and through Excuse me and through a teaching. Where Folks can go off base where they can have differences in eschatology where they can get that so wrong is that While the Holy Spirit does teach us while we are least us here are Calvinist.

We believe that God is in complete control and sovereign over everything. We also don't believe that he has done away with the will of man. So we do still have some wiggle room to do things to Sin even and to make mistakes and do stuff.

That's not correct one of those errors that I think is no either through tradition or just an Oversight or maybe it hasn't been maybe hasn't been emphasized enough in training and discipleship of the next generation is the inspiration of the scriptures.

And what that means for the interpretation of the scriptures because the the folks that that that were mentioned in the Solid folks still believe in the inspiration of Scripture. Absolutely. God, you know spoke.

I wrote through holy men. He used them in their personality situations and whatever to write down exactly the words That God wanted written down and preserved for us in Scripture. They believe that a hundred percent.

I think the Disconnect comes when we take that truth and apply it to how we understand and interpret the Bible. Because since that's true We can read certain portions of Scripture in light of other certain portions of Scripture for instance.

Um, well Sunday school this morning we were going over the story of Jephthah. How do you understand the judges. We we went through the story, but we remembered something that Jesus had said in the book of Luke, he's on the road to Emmaus talking to his people and They said they said that he started with Moses and the prophets and explained to them how all of the scriptures were about him Himself how he was there.

So we're going to interpret the judges properly. If we're going to interpret the Old Testament properly we have to remember That there are certain things that that occurred in the Old Testament that we may not know the correct interpretation of until the New Testament comes around because It's part of an entire story.

You don't get to the end of any book you think of any fiction book or movie. You may go along and think you have an understanding of what's going on. Think about what's coming up Next you may kind of understand something and then you get to the get to the end of it.

And there's a twist or there's a change or something that you That is explained to you in the movie is different than how you understood it the first time through you have to understand that When God had the scriptures preserved for us there may have been things that didn't make complete sense the first go-around make their full complete Meaning come alive through the scripture.

So for instance with the story of Jephthah. Um, do you see a People who are not good who are being judged the Israelites. By the Ammonites the Ammonites come up to fight against them. They the Israelites then go find their their wayward lost son that they'd kicked out Jephthah who's a prostitute daughter.

They said or his prostitute son said you're not going to be a part of our family because you're the son of a prostitute. You need to leave you're having no part of our inheritance. Then all of a sudden when they need somebody.

They find this Jephthah who had gathered to himself a band of merry men like the like Robin Hood or the Hells Angels or something. Then they they go out to fight. But what Jephthah does as he goes to the people of Ammon and says hey you guys are doing wrong.

You guys are not doing right. You came up here to to take over this land because you said that we took it from you. But that's not true. Number one God gave it to us. Number two He took this from the Ammon Amorites.

So it wasn't even your land to begin with and number three You have a choice to make you can be like Edom and Moab who let us go around their land but they didn't fight us or he can be like Og and Sihon who decided to come after us and We took him to task and took their land.

So in that whole story He makes a vow that he's going to kill whatever comes out of his house first to greet him after they win. It ends up being his daughter. Rough story. So how do we interpret that?

How do we understand what the full? The full message is from that passage. Well, we remember that these things point to Christ. We remember that there's a people who need deliverance. That people who needs deliverance are going to be delivered by one.

Unlike what they Think they need they thought they needed know the hell's angels Robin Hood type to come and make political victory for them. But Jeff that came over and started talking about spiritual things.

No, this is about your God verse my God. This isn't about you verse me in our politics and it required Through the course of events the loss of the only child of The one who was going to deliver the people.

It's a picture of Christ and how the father sent his son into the world to die for the sins of men. If we don't remember what Jesus says in Luke, we don't come to that interpretation. We don't understand that that story is pointing to Christ instead.

We It's hard to try to think through those things if you don't have that. That's a bit of a difficult situation to think through. But the same thing goes when you're talking about who is Israel? Who is the church?

What is the nature of Israel is the nature of the church. Is Israel and the church separate? Are they the same. Are they a continuation of one another? You know, how does all that work and the one how you answer those questions?

It can determine what your view of the end times is so I Remembering what God has told us that the scriptures are given by inspiration of God we have to remember that He's called the church. One who's been grafted in it says that those who have faith are of their father Abraham.

And that changes how we interpret other scriptures which shapes what our eschatology looks like. So instead of looking for two purposes of God one through a An earthly purpose of God's glorification through the nation of Israel and then in a heavenly one in the church.

We recognize that all of the world is going to glorify God Through his ruling and reigning over the world and his discipling of the nations through his church. It's different because of because of how you apply your understanding of the inspiration of scripture.

So all that to say. That that there are good folks true Christians who differ. Yeah, and I think they differ because I think we're the same because we have the Holy Spirit who's let us in the truth. I think we differ because of how we apply our understanding of well.

Mainly, there's other things but mainly the inspiration of the scriptures.

The Spirit of God and the Inspiration of Scripture

Yeah I think you bring up some good some good points and just two quick points that I will make on that is I mean if They have a great track record for you know 20 30 40 year 50 years, you know, that doesn't mean that you can't continue to love them listen to them and learn from them if they're solid on the essentials.

They're going to continue to be solid on the essentials and you can keep you know, trusting in them even though you may Differ with them on eschatology or You may not differ with them yet. But you're you're being tempted by people like us who to question that your favorite teachers eschatology.

And it's okay. So we're all fallible. We're all men. We're all fallible. Everybody can make a mistake. We're not going to be consistently 100 accurate on every You know jot and tittle of every doctrine so we can keep that in mind and and your your points about interpretation are spot-on.

I mean these these trusted teachers. And this is one way to evaluate those teachers. They will probably have a lot of agreement with you and I Dan about how to interpret scripture. Let you know the historical grammatical interpretational method.

Letting the the scripture interpret scripture. Let the clear text interpret the unclear text I mean all those things they will probably agree with us on those things. So here's what we here's what we need to do when we look at those teachers and We're we're trying to decide whether we want to Question their eschatology or not.

We can say You know, let's look at their interpretation. Okay on the gospel on these other points of doctrine. We agree with them on their interpretational method. All right, are they consistent? With that interpretational method when it comes to eschatology if they hold to the pre-millennial dispensational view I Would say that Dan and I would would say that they're not being consistent with that Method of interpretation that they use other places.

Would you say that? No, I.

But yes I believe they're being consistent. But what I'm what I would say is that the grammatical? historical interpretation By itself alone is not adequate to interpret the scriptures faithfully, okay, because There is a theological aspect to how we interpret the scriptures Which is defined? by the scriptures and We can arrive at those things through a grammatical historical understanding but just like Jephthah You look at any of the stories of the judges.

You look at Ruth the Old Testament prophets if you look at those Those accounts and even the history through first and second Samuel. Is that just an accounting of history and a bunch of moral stories that we can grab and pull or is that actually a part? of a bigger story of God's redemption of mankind.

Right and because it's a part of a bigger story. You can't take the grammatical historical Method to one of those texts say David and Goliath. You can't take that to David and Goliath and pull out everything.

That's there. You have to have the whole of scripture together in order to Understand it completely. So I would say that they are using the grammatical historical method, but that method by itself Is is it's just not enough.

So when I get to eschatology, they're just being inconsistent with how they interpret the rest of scripture.

I I don't necessarily think that's the case either. I think that It's almost as if the text themselves are Isolated from one another and and when you do that When you isolate the text In in try to use the grammatical historical method on one text Without bringing in the meaning of the text that is maybe given somewhere else, right?

You lose the true meaning of the text. I think that's really the place where where folks differ. It's not that the grammatical historical method is bad. It's just that if if you're not remembering what God has said elsewhere in the text If you're not trusting that the one who ultimately authored it To give you a proper interpretation later then you may take a interpretation.

That is not. It's not up to par. It's not accurate. Okay. Well, let me ask you.

Let me ask you this way to you and then you you can tell me where we differ. So what what we're saying that there's a difference between us and And this teacher that we're talking about that that someone may trust.

And both of us you and I and this teacher. Would let's say we both agree on all these other essential doctrines. We we get to the eschatology. You and I are going to differ from this particular trusted teacher.

Sure. So so how do you and I? Get get to a different place than this trusted teacher when we. You come to the same conclusions on these other doctrines. A lot of.

Formulating a Lot of those basic core doctrines of the faith can be pulled from one passage. Salvation, you know pick a passage in Romans go to it and use a grammatical historical method and boom. You've got a very Orthodox wonderful Solid view of salvation.

You do the same thing you look at the text that surround Christ's birth. You're gonna come to the conclusion of the virgin birth. Eschatology is a bit different because it's not a one text. Tight sort of Doctrine you have to pull from the whole of Scripture in order to understand your end times so You can you can get away with get away with like they're trying to trick you.

You can arrive at a a solid core of doctrine using only the grammatical historical method. Because those things are clearly defined in single passages of Scripture multiple times across throughout the Bible.

That's not the case with eschatology. Eschatology you've got to do a little bit more work and connect the dots. There's some truth to that that meme with the pictures on the wall and the little red lines and the crazy guy going like this with the Trying to point out like he's got a conspiracy theory going.

There's some truth to that for all of the theological positions. Concerning the end times because you do have you have to connect the dots throughout Scripture. The reason why we arrive at a different place is that we believe.

That you have to connect the dots by starting at the finish line and tracing it back. Others will start at the beginning and trace it forward not allowing for what the end says to Determine what happens in the beginning.

Got you. They make more sense if we actually get into text because it's it's all abstract and got you nebulous at this point. Well, let's let's jump into our.

Podcast guide. Our questionnaire that we put together or you put together. We were walking together with Dan. Dan is taking a course and he's writing a paper and He he's actually writing a paper on post-millennialism in a world where Many are not and so this is gonna be interesting to hear how their take on his position.

Yeah, great school. Chapter two is all about hermeneutics. I got a hearty. Amen from my professors on it. So. Hey, we'll see see what they think about the rest of the paper, but.

Let's see. Well, the questionnaire is going to lead us through post-millennialism. So so as I stated at the beginning There's probably many many out there like I was like you were that are not even familiar with post millennial post-millennialism.

Maybe I've never even heard the term so we're going to introduce people to post-millennialism and the different viewpoints within post-millennialism and then at the end maybe try to convince folks that this is the the more biblical understanding of eschatology.

I'm probably gonna let you tackle since this is your this is your work and let you tackle most of these questions. Except for the first one. I want to give it a shot. You can.

Here I even remember what it is. I'll ask you the question.

Ask me the question and you can polish me up because I'm not as polished as Dan. But but you can polish me up if I wobble on any of it.

All right, Rob, imagine we're on an elevator and you have 30 seconds to tell me. Tell me what is post-millennialism?

Post-millennialism is what we call the eschatology of hope it is the least pessimistic of all the end times studies in the Bible. We believe that the Millennial Kingdom is a Figurative thousand years.

Just like all the other places where you see a thousand years in Scripture We also take it figuratively. We believe that the Millennial Kingdom began at the time of Christ and will continue until he has Put all of his enemies under his feet and that last enemy is going to be dead and at that time We believe that Jesus will fulfill his promise of a second coming.

How about that? I? Like it. You threw a lot of stuff in there.

I would Simplify it a little bit. Okay, I Would say that Christian doctrine teaches that Christ has redeemed the world. We believe that we'll see a lot of my redemption before he returns more so than the other the other positions.

But I'd also incorporate that with all the good stuff you said.

Well that I mean, that's an excellent point. That Is a major point in post-millennialism that Christ redemptive work on the cross Does not only translate to the salvation of the souls of men. I mean, so so when you you you'll hear this often in your churches.

We'll talk we'll elevate the Great Commission, which we should and and we'll even quote it. But we we tie it so closely or we narrow its Field to only one area salvation and evangelism. When the Great Commission in Matthew chapter 28, it goes way beyond that it speaks to the redemption of The whole world where we're to disciple all the nations.

Right. Yeah, I was I was sitting on a recumbent bike in the gym Wednesday and This this older fellow walked by and he made a joke about me peddling and not getting anywhere. But then he sat down next to me and started talking come to find out.

He's he's the father of one of my good friends up here but we were talking for a while and one of the things that we brought up was Was just that how the redemption that Christ purchased on the cross Wasn't just for our salvation, but for the redemption of the whole world.

I thought he was gonna start speaking in tongues and pray and Off-sign right there. I mean he was he was Enjoying life. It was it was a good time with the brother. I have no idea what his eschatology is but it's something that people recognize through Scripture that there is a victory that Christ has won a redemption that he is that he is Accomplished through his work on the cross.

That's not just for mankind but for all of creation. He didn't just create the rocks and the mountains and the trees to be a stage for Sinners to sin he created it for his own glory. And so his work on the cross Restores that glory.

Yeah, that's our hope that we'll see a lot of that restoration.

Accomplished before Christ returns, right? And I think that's the major difference between us and the other views. Especially the pre-millennial dispensational view. They're gonna hold to the idea that it's a it's it's affects.

Cover the whole world. There's a redemption of the whole world except in their view. It's gonna be. It's gonna happen more quickly so it's God's gonna destroy the earth with the what. It's gonna happen more quickly and all at the end all at the end.

Yeah, he's gonna destroy the whole earth with with fire. It's all gonna be melted down and then he's gonna rebuild it. So there's your redemption of the whole world. We we on the other hand see scripture teaching this progressive Sanctification this progressive.

Winning over of the world. Right. Christ's reigning until all of his enemies have been put under his feet. Like scripture says and then the last enemy being death. That's right.

Well, and that's Psalm 110 and you see it quoted several times in the New Testament. Yeah, that that was saying was from 1st Corinthians 15. 1st Corinthians 15. Absolutely. Alright, so let's get on to the the other questions.

What distinguishes post-millennialism from the other? Eschatological systems and we've we've covered some of that already.

What are some other number one? We're correct I Think we are number two. We're the most humble about it. The I think that the main thing that different differentiates us from all the other systems is when the Redemption of the world will be accomplished.

We all believe that it'll be fully and finally completely done at The second coming of Christ when he judges the living and the dead when he puts in away forever. Everything will be made perfect. Then the tears will be wiped away.

Perfection glory. Amazing wonderful. Everyone's hope is that We'd we believe That it's coming Sooner that it started happening at the time of Christ that it will continue through fits and spurts and ups and downs throughout history that we'll see the the glory of God through the redemption of mankind.

Extend throughout all of the earth that the Great Commission will be accomplished Positively before Christ returned and that he will return to an earth that is basically Christian. All of the other Views did not believe that Christ is going to return to a an earth That is basically Christian when he returns.

They believe that there's going to be some level or extent of Debauchery or you know, some believe that there's some growth and some not very much and some total downhill from here. But all of all of them to some extent or another believe that We're not going to see a great revival throughout history a trending upwards if.

I hope I say this where you can follow me because It's so interesting if if you take what you just said and you look at look at the different views so the premillennial dispensational view they hold that there's The two kingdoms I guess the Israel and the church are different.

They're different groups of people right and however, however We know the pattern that happens in the Old Testament with Israel. They they go in covenant with God. They break covenant with God. They're going they they turn.

They they obey then they disobey and you see this pattern over and over and over again until eventually. You know God sends enemies in to you know, take them over or they're dispersed or you know, they're taken out.

There's this justice. There's this punishment that comes and and so even though the premillennial premillennial dispensational view Says that the church and Israel are different. They their view acts like the church Israel acted in the Old Testament where the We have the church and we have they call church age but yet you're going you're going to have this small remnant and and the world is just gonna continue to get worse and worse and worse and worse until God finally has enough and He takes that small remnant out and it's time to exert justice on the earth.

Right and It's like they they want to say they're two different groups, but yet they you know, there's a similar pattern in the in the church age that you see in the Old Testament and That to me that just it doesn't make sense because if if we believe that the work of Christ on the cross was Was and is effectual then it's going to Have an effect in the world.

It's gonna have progress, you know, we're gonna we're gonna see. You know We don't want to I Don't want to have a view that That puts the work of Christ in the cross and it's a facial on us. And say that it's limited or weak, you know I'm saying and and that's not I don't want to Insert that into Scripture if it's not there.

But I don't see that in Scripture. That the work of the work of Christ You know is this amazing thing and yet it has no power the world's just going to get worse and worse and worse. Actually, I see the opposite in Scripture that the the work of Christ is amazing and wonderful and it's going to have an effect in the world.

Right, well the the especially the this the dispensational premillennialist will will believe that. Goodness, my my whole brain just shut off. Probably listening to me. They they believe that the work of Christ is effective.

They believe that it's effective to to his his goals and purposes. It's actually a lot like Calvinism in that respect different, but there's that similar aspect. What they would say is that God is being glorified throughout the several dispensations of history that throughout the time know each of the ages.

That God is glorified through the failure of men and the redemption of Of men through Christ, so when the Old Covenant failed Christ was there to Usher in salvation. When the church fails with the Great Commission Christ will return and The Great Commission will then succeed through what they view as the Millennial Kingdom.

We're sitting on the earth. So what what they view it as the failure of men in each of the dispensations is Overshadowed by the the grace and the success of God through his Progress forward through history, even though men have failed at every single point.

Even though they've been tested and tried at every single point and failed God has succeeded where men have failed. I Don't see that in Scripture but That that would that would be what they what they say.

Well, and to me what you just said I mean that's why we can I can see a consistency with with the doctrines of grace with the sovereignty of God and this and this Postmillennialism eschatology of hope because it's it's all of God.

It's all of his work. It's the work of Christ and what he's doing and if it's his work. You know if you're if your doctrine is a great person if you're if you believe in the sovereignty of God, then You You believe that he's powerful enough and and that he's going to be successful.

Because it's his work and and it's not dependent on us. He does it through us and he uses us but it's his success is not dependent on us. That's why he that's why he had to come down and do it, you know do it himself.

Because we failed. Right. Any other distinct distinguishing factors between oh what I did want to bring up this before we move on. Because it was one of the what please do. Okay, it's one of the things that that you brought up.

And I think it's important because there it causes a confusion for some people so you were talking about the the progression that Christ is not going to return and come back to a mostly Sinful place, but he's going to come back to a mostly Christianized place.

So that that thought People often get us confused with the folks that believe in the seven mountain mandate those that are trying to Do this work here on earth to try to coax or draw Jesus to come down right and That's not us.

That's not what we believe. That's not post-millennialism. No, can you explain the difference?

Christ's Victory Over the Nations and the Great Commission

Yeah, the major difference is the starting point the seven mountains. Dominionism sort of sort of doctrine. Says that there are seven different areas or spheres of influence that mankind can have on the earth.

I think it's like media family government Church. I don't know. There's three more. Yeah. Three four more. But anyway each each of those they then have to engage and work in in order to change them around usher in.

Make those things Christian so that the conditions are proper for Christ to them return. So they're working towards the end of Christ return. What we're saying is post-millennialist is that Christ on the cross accomplished everything that needed to be accomplished then.

He now through the power of the Holy Spirit is doling out giving gifts to men. Calling a people to repentance to himself in order that when he does return He's proof. He's provided for himself a welcome party to greet him to the earth.

So man, so while we have the Great Commission to go out there and preach and disciple the nation's we're not doing the work here. Christ is doing the work. We're not trying to usher in Christ's return.

We're not trying to bring him down to us. We are remembering that this is God's work from the first to the end and it's a top down sort of thing. It starts from God and it ends with his feet touching down on the earth.