Truth in Love- Postmillennialism

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Welcome to the truth and love podcast This is Rob and you've got

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Dan back with us and we're so glad to have him back tonight We are going to continue our talk on post

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Millennialism, it's gonna be a great conversation. Hope you will stick around and join us Welcome once again to the truth and love podcast almost said labor's podcast

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It's easy to get them confused and I'm glad I chose the right video this time We had a smooth exit there.

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We knew when it was coming and we had the new sound. It was fantastic How are you doing, Dan? I'm doing all right.

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I'm doing all right. How are you doing? I'm I'm doing fine I'm doing fine. I'm I'm blessed and I'm more blessed than I realized and I just need to be thankful to God for All that he's he's done for me and I know you've got a lot on your plate y 'all were expecting a new little one

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Not too long. Yep new little covenant member. That's right Hey, I'm not gonna argue with you our

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Our bet our video on baptism is gonna come up soon enough. Well, we'll hash it out then So tonight we're going to talk more about post millennialism and I this is a great conversation

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I have Of course, Dan and I I'm a Baptist. He's a Presbyterian we both agree at least on this portion of eschatology the idea of post millennialism and we we want to Share it and discuss it in such a way that we would like to convince you to That it's biblical that it's from Scripture that we're not just pulling things out of the air and trying to to shoehorn it in To the

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Bible But we'd like to convince you of what we see in in Scripture and that would be post millennialism another good another reason

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I think it's a great conversation Dan is because I Think there's a lot of people out there still like me

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Who for the longest time? The only thing that I ever heard was there's gonna be a rapture

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Um The end is near because of all the terrible things that we see around us

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There's gonna be a time of tribulation. Now. There was the discussion Are we gonna go through the tribulation or are we gonna be you know, raptured out before the tribulation there?

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I've heard that conversation before but That was it. That's all I ever heard and I I never knew there was other options

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For eschatology for end times Until later way later on.

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Did you have a similar experience? Yeah. Yeah, um even so 2017

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I was interviewing for a position as a youth pastor and I just just talking with the pastor and I asked him

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I said, you know, so what is your eschatology just for fun? Millennial post -millennial premillennial he goes, what do you mean post -tribulational or pre -tribulational?

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so for a lot of folks the Premillennial understanding is the only one that that they have the only one that they know of It's just that prevalent in our day that hasn't always been that way

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But in our in our day, it's the one that people know of it's the one that a lot of people

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Grew up with and there's a good reason for that, especially in conservative circles.

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Um, the the Fundamentalist controversy back about a hundred years ago

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Largely the people who were on the correct side of that were Dispensational they helped with fundamentals of the faith and so when people were looking around to see who is going to actually believe what the

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Bible says and These people believed in the fundamentals of the faith while a lot of people were rejecting it

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They said well We're on board and so they went with those those folks and those folks had that dispensational

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Premillennial eschatology with it and why not if they're right about the Bible they're right about Jesus the virgin birth and all that Why not?

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Why wouldn't they be why wouldn't they be right about this other stuff, right? So it makes sense, but We kind of want to challenge

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That notion just a little bit that just because somebody's right on one thing doesn't mean that they're right on all of it

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Although go ahead. They're right on very good things to be right about. Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, they were equating as their eschatology the the rapture premillennial dispensationalism with the fundamentals of the faith as You know and tying those two together

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Well time went on absolutely, it became one of the tenets of the faith that if you didn't believe in a dispensational premillennial understanding of The end times and you were off base, but I don't think it started like that I think it started with people just wanting to make sure they were in a good solid

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Church Yeah, they found who held to the fundamentals of the faith and a lot of those folks just happened to be dispensational, right?

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Well, and there are people still out there today that hold hold that That eschatology as one of the fundamentals of the faith so much so that you know, they will they will unfriend you

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You know, they will they will give you a what -for because you believe something different. You don't believe in that I mean they hold it that strongly yeah, there's even some in the independent fundamental baptist circles that if you if you are mid -trib or post -tribulational rapture

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They'll write you off as a heretic. That's never going to see the doors of heaven and Just hey.

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Hey now buddy. That's a step too far Oh, yeah, people still believe in the same

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Christ that died on the cross for their sins So we ought to be a little cherub a little bit more charitable right on those things

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You brought up a good question just a second ago And I'll be curious to hear your response or how you would how you would respond to somebody who's having this concern.

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So There's guys still putting out new books every so often About the end being near about the end times about the rapture pre pre -millennial dispensationalism

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And and overall these folks are are good teachers and they teach, you know, they teach the gospel

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They teach well on many other issues But we would say that we disagree with them on this particular point of eschatology.

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So You were talking about well if they're good on all these other things, why can't we trust them in eschatology?

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How can you how can you say they're missing it? So badly on eschatology when they're so smart and such great teachers and they've been in the ministry for 20 30 40 50 years

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How would you speak to somebody though? That's you know, we're saying that about those men that they trust

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Sure There's two two things number one thing that they have which caused them to be so right about so many things is

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I Would say the Spirit of God it says in Somewhere in the

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Bible New Testament. I think first John I could be wrong. It says that nobody can say

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Nobody can bless the Lord except by the Spirit of God No one can say that Jesus is Lord but except by the

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Spirit of God so People who have so much right they have you know,

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Jesus came to the earth born of a virgin died sinless

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Laid in the grave for three days rose again They believe in creation the prophets

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That they believe they have the core of the faith locked down tight. I believe that's because they have the

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Spirit of God Now there's some individual cases they may not but by and large

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God the Holy Spirit has preserved for his people The truth he has led his led the church into all truth.

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I mean through the scriptures and through Excuse me and through a

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Teaching Where folks can go off base where they can have differences in eschatology where they can get that so wrong is that While the

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Holy Spirit does teach us while we are least us here are

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Calvinist We believe that God is in complete control. He's sovereign over everything We also don't believe that he has done away with the will of man so we do still have some wiggle room to do things to Sin even and to make mistakes and do stuff.

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That's not correct one of those errors that I think is no either through tradition or just an

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Oversight or maybe it hasn't been maybe hasn't been emphasized enough in training and discipleship of the next generation is the inspiration of the scriptures

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And what that means for the interpretation of the scriptures because the the the folks that that were mentioned in the

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Solid folks they'll believe in the inspiration of Scripture Absolutely, God Spoke I wrote through holy men

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He used them in their personality situations and whatever to write down exactly the words

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That God wanted written down and preserved for us in Scripture. They believe that a hundred percent.

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I think the Disconnect comes when we take that truth and apply it to how we understand and interpret the

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Bible Because since that's true We can read certain portions of Scripture in light of other certain portions of Scripture for instance

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Um, well Sunday school this morning we were going over the story of Jephthah How do you understand the judges

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We we went through the story, but we remembered something that Jesus had said in the book of Luke, he's on the road to Emmaus talking to his people and They said they said that he started with Moses and the prophets and explained to them how all of the scriptures were about him

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Himself how he was there. So we're going to interpret the judges properly

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If we're going to interpret the Old Testament properly, we have to remember That there are certain things that that occurred in the

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Old Testament that we may not know the correct interpretation of until the New Testament comes around because It's part of an entire story

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You don't get to the end of any book You think of any fiction book or movie you may go along and think you have an understanding of what's going on Think about what's coming up next you may kind of understand something and then you get to the get to the end of it and there's a twist or there's a change or something that you

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That is explained to you in the movie is different than how you understood it the first time through you have to understand that When God had the scriptures preserved for us.

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There may have been things that didn't make complete sense the first go -around Make their full complete

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Meaning come alive through the scripture. So for instance with the story of Jephthah You see a

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People who are not good who are being judged the Israelites By the

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Ammonites the Ammonites come up to fight against them They the

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Israelites then go find their their wayward lost son that they'd kicked out Jephthah who's a prostitute daughter

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They said or his prostitute son said you're not going to be a part of our family because you're the son of a prostitute

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You need to leave you're having no part of our inheritance Then all of a sudden when they need somebody

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They find this Jephthah who had gathered to himself a band of merry men like the like Robin Hood or the

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Hells Angels or something Then they they go out to fight But what Jephthah does as he goes to the people of Ammon and says hey you guys are doing wrong

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You guys are not doing right You came up here to to take over this land because you said that we took it from you

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But that's not true. Number one. God gave it to us. Number two. He took this from the Ammonites so it wasn't even your land to begin with and Number three you have a choice to make you can be like Edom and Moab who let us go around their land but they didn't fight us or he can be like Og and Sihon who decided to come after us and We took him to task and took their land so in that whole story

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He makes a vow that he's going to kill whatever comes out of his house first to greet him after they win

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It ends up being his daughter Rough story, so how do we interpret that?

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How do we understand what the full? The full message is from that passage.

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Well, we remember that these things point to Christ. We remember that there's a people who

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Need deliverance that people who needs deliverance are going to be delivered by one

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Unlike what they Think they need they thought they needed know the hell's angels Robin Hood type to come and make political victory for them

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But Jeff that came over and started talking about spiritual things. No, this is about your

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God verse my God This isn't about you verse me in our politics and it required through the course of events the loss of the only child of The one who was going to deliver the people

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It's a picture of Christ and how the father sent his son into the world to die for the sins of men

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If we don't remember what Jesus says in Luke, we don't come to that interpretation We don't understand that that story is pointing to Christ instead.

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We It's hard to try to think through those things if you don't have that That's a bit of a difficult situation to think through But the same thing goes when you're talking about who is

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Israel who is the church What is the nature of Israel is the nature of the church is? Israel and the church separate are they the same are they a continuation of one another?

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You know, how does all that work and one how you answer those questions? It can determine what your view of the end times is so I Remembering what

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God has told us that the scriptures are given by inspiration of God we have to remember that He is called the church

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One who's been grafted in it says that those who have faith are of their father Abraham And that changes how we interpret other scriptures which shapes what our eschatology looks like So instead of looking for two purposes of God one through a

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An earthly purpose of God's glorification through the nation of Israel and then in a heavenly one in the church

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We recognize that all of the world is going to glorify God Through his ruling and reigning over the world and his discipling of the nations through his church

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Right, it's different because of because of how you apply your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture so all that to say

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That that there are good folks true

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Christians who differ And I think they differ because I think we're the same because we have the

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Holy Spirit who's let us in the truth I think we differ because of how we apply our understanding of well

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Mainly, there's other things but mainly the inspiration of the scriptures Yeah I think you bring up some good some good points and just two quick points that I will make on that is

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I mean if They have a great track record for you know 20 30 40 year 50 years, you know, that doesn't mean that you can't continue to love them listen to them and learn from them if they're solid on the essentials

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They're going to continue to be solid on the essentials and you can keep you know trusting in them even though you may

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Differ with them on eschatology or You may not differ with them yet But you're you're being tempted by people like us who to question that your favorite teachers eschatology

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And it's okay. So we're all fallible. We're all men. We're all fallible. Everybody can make a mistake

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We're not going to be consistently 100 % accurate on every You know jot and tittle of every doctrine so we can keep that in mind and and your your points about interpretation are spot -on

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I mean these these trusted teachers And this is one way to evaluate those teachers

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They will probably have a lot of agreement with you and I Dan about how to interpret scripture

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Let you know the historical grammatical interpretational method Letting the the scripture interpret scripture let the clear text interpret the unclear text

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I mean all those things they will probably agree with us on those things. So here's what we here's what we need to do when we look at those teachers and We're we're trying to decide whether we want to Question their eschatology or not.

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We can say You know, let's look at their interpretation. Okay on the gospel on these other points of doctrine

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We agree with them on their interpretational method. All right, are they consistent? With that interpretational method when it comes to eschatology if they hold to the pre -millennial dispensational view

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I Would I would say that Dan and I would would say that they're not being consistent with that Method of interpretation that they use other places.

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Would you say that? No, I But yes

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I believe they're being consistent. But what I'm what

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I would say is that the grammatical historical interpretation By itself alone is not adequate to interpret the scriptures faithfully, okay, because There is a theological aspect to how we interpret the scriptures which is defined by the scriptures and We can arrive at those things through a grammatical historical understanding but just like Jephthah You look at any of the stories of the judges

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You look at Ruth the Old Testament prophets if you look at those

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Those accounts and even the history through first and second Samuel Is that just an accounting of history and a bunch of moral stories that we can grab and pull or is that actually a part?

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of a bigger story of God's redemption of mankind Right and because it's a part of a bigger story.

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You can't take the grammatical historical Method to one of those texts say

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David and Goliath. You can't take that to David and Goliath and pull out everything That's there.

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You have to have the whole of Scripture together in order to Understand it completely.

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So I would say that they are using the grammatical historical method, but that method by itself

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Is is it's just not enough So when

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I get the eschatology, they're just being inconsistent with how they interpret the rest of Scripture I I don't necessarily think that's the case either that it's almost as if the the text themselves are

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Isolated from one another and and when you do that When you isolate the text

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In in try to use the grammatical historical method on one text

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Without bringing in the meaning of the text that is maybe given somewhere else, right?

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You lose the true meaning of the text. I think that's really the place where where folks differ

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It's not that the grammatical historical method is bad It's just that if if you're not remembering what

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God has said elsewhere in the text If you're not trusting that the one who ultimately authored it

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To give you a proper interpretation later then you may take a interpretation

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That is not It's not up to par. It's not accurate. Okay. Well, let me ask you

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Let me ask you this way to you and then you you can tell me where we differ So what we're saying that there's a difference between us and and this teacher that we're talking about That someone may trust

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And both of us you and I and this teacher Would let's say we both agree on all these other essential doctrines

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We we get to the eschatology you and I are going to differ from this particular trusted teacher

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Sure. So so how do you and I? Get get to a different place than this trusted teacher when we

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Come to the same conclusions on these other doctrines a lot of Formulating a lot of those basic core doctrines of the faith can be pulled from one passage

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Salvation, you know pick a passage in Romans go to it and use a grammatical historical method and boom

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You've got a very orthodox wonderful solid view of salvation

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You do the same thing you look at The text that's around Christ's birth.

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You're gonna come to the conclusion of the virgin birth Eschatology is a bit different because it's not a one text

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Tight sort of Doctrine you have to pull from the whole of Scripture in order to understand your end times so You can you can get away with get away with like they're trying to trick you you can arrive at a a solid core of doctrine using only the grammatical historical method

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Because those things are clearly defined in single passages of Scripture multiple times across throughout the

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Bible That's not the case with eschatology eschatology. You've got to do a little bit more work and connect the dots

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There's some truth to that that meme with the pictures on the wall and the little red lines and the crazy guy going like this with the

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Trying to point out like he's got a conspiracy theory going. There's some truth to that for all of the theological positions

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Concerning the end times because you do have you have to connect the dots throughout Scripture The reason why we arrive at a different place is that we believe

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That you have to connect the dots by starting at the finish line and tracing it back

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Others will start at the beginning and trace it forward not allowing for what the end says to Determine what happens in the beginning

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They make more sense if we actually get into text because it's it's all abstract and got you nebulous at this point

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Well, let's let's jump into our Podcast guide our questionnaire that we put together or you put together we were walking together with Dan Dan is taking a course and he's writing a paper and He he's actually writing a paper on post -millennial ism in in a world where?

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Many are not and so this is gonna be interesting to hear how their take on his position

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Yeah, great school chapter 2 is all about hermeneutics. I got a hearty.

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Amen from my professors on it. So Hey, we'll see see what they think about the rest of the paper, but Let's see.

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Well, the questionnaire is going to lead us through post -millennial ism So so as I stated at the beginning

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There's probably many many out there like I was like you were that are not even familiar with post millennial post -millennial ism

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Maybe I've never even heard the term so we're going to introduce people to post -millennial ism and the different viewpoints within post -millennial ism and then at the end maybe try to convince folks that this is the the more biblical understanding of eschatology

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I'm probably gonna let you tackle since this is your this is your work and let you tackle most of these questions

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Except for the first one. I want to give it a shot. You can Here I even remember what it is.

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I'll ask you the question Ask me the question and you can polish me up because I'm not as polished as Dan But but you can polish me up if I wobble on any of it

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All right, Rob. Imagine we're on an elevator and you have 30 seconds to tell me

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Tell me what is post -millennial ism? Post -millennial ism is what we call the eschatology of hope it is the least pessimistic of all the end times studies in the

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Bible we believe that the Millennial Kingdom is a Figurative thousand years just like all the other places where you see a thousand years in Scripture We also take it figuratively we believe that the

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Millennial Kingdom began at the time of Christ and will continue until he has

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Put all of his enemies under his feet and that last enemy is going to be death and at that time we believe that Jesus will fulfill his promise of a second coming.

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How about that? I Like it You threw a lot of stuff in there

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I would Simplify it a little bit. Okay, I Would say that Christian doctrine teaches that Christ has redeemed the world

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We believe that we'll see a lot of my redemption before he returns more so than the other the other positions

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But I'd also incorporate that with all the good stuff you said Well that I mean that's an excellent point that Is a major point in post -millennial ism that Christ redemptive work on the cross

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Does not only translate to the salvation of the souls of men I mean, so so when you you you'll hear this often in your churches

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We'll talk we'll elevate the Great Commission, which we should and we'll even quote it

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But we we tie it so closely or we narrow its field to only one area salvation and evangelism

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When the Great Commission in Matthew chapter 28 It goes way beyond that it speaks to the redemption of the whole world where we're to disciple all the nations

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Right. Yeah, I was I was sitting on a recumbent bike in the gym

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Wednesday and This this older fellow walked by and he made a joke about me pedaling and not getting anywhere

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But he sat down next to me and started talking come to find out he's he's the father of one of my good friends up here but we were talking for a while and one of the things that we brought up was

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Was just that how the redemption that Christ purchased on the cross? Wasn't just for our salvation, but for the redemption of the whole world

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I thought he was gonna start speaking in tongues and pray and Off sign right there. I mean he was he was

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Enjoying life. It was it was a good time with the brother. I have no idea what his eschatology is but it's something that people recognize through Scripture that there is a victory that Christ has won a redemption that he is that he is

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Accomplished through his work on the cross. That's not just for mankind but for all of creation

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He didn't just create the rocks and the mountains and the trees to be a stage for Sinners to sin he created it for his own glory.

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And so his work on the cross Restores that glory. Yeah, that's our hope that we'll see a lot of that restoration

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Accomplished before Christ returns, right? And I think that's the major difference between us and the other views

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Especially the premillennial dispensational view They're gonna hold to the idea that it's a it's it's affects

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Cover the whole world. There's a redemption of the whole world except in their view. It's gonna be

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It's gonna happen more quickly so it's God's gonna destroy the earth with the what

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It's gonna happen more quickly and all at the end all at the end. Yeah, he's gonna destroy the whole earth with with fire

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It's all gonna be melted down and then he's gonna rebuild it. So there's your redemption of the whole world

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We we on the other hand see Scripture teaching this progressive Sanctification this progressive winning over of the world

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Right Christ reigning until all of his enemies have been put under his feet Like Scripture says and then the last enemy being death.

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That's right Well, and that's Psalm 110 and you see it quoted several times in the

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New Testament Yeah, that that was saying was from 1st Corinthians 15 1st

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Corinthians 15. Absolutely Alright, so let's get on to the the other questions. What distinguishes postmillennialism from the other?

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Eschatological systems and we've we've covered some of that already What are some other number one?

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We're correct I Think we are number two.

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We're the most humble about it The I think that the main thing that different differentiates us from all the other systems is

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When the redemption of the world will be accomplished We all believe that it'll be fully and finally completely done at The second coming of Christ when he judges the living and the dead when he puts in away forever

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Everything will be made perfect. Then the tears will be wiped away Perfection glory

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Amazing wonderful. Everyone's hope is that We'd we believe that It's coming sooner that it started happening at the time of Christ that it will continue through fits and spurts and ups and downs

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Throughout history that we'll see the the glory of God through the redemption of mankind

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Extend throughout all of the earth that the Great Commission will be accomplished Positively before Christ's return and that he will return to an earth that is basically

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Christian all of the other Views did not believe that Christ is going to return to a an earth

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That is basically Christian when he returns. They believe that there's going to be some level or extent of Debauchery or you know, some believe that there's some growth and some not very much of some total downhill from here

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But all of all of them to some extent or another believe that We're not going to see a great revival throughout history a trending upwards if I hope

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I say this where you can follow me because It's so interesting if if you take what you just said and you look at look at the different views so the premillennial dispensational view they hold that there's

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The two kingdoms I guess the Israel and the church are different There are different groups of people right and however, however

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We know the pattern that happens in the Old Testament with Israel They they go in covenant with God They break covenant with God.

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They're going they they turn They they obey then they disobey and you see this pattern over and over and over again until eventually

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You know God sends enemies in to you know, take them over or they're dispersed or you know, they're taken out

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There's this justice. There's this punishment that comes and and so even though the premillennial premillennial dispensational view

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Says that the church and Israel are different They their view Acts like the church

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Israel acted in in the Old Testament where the We have the church and we have they call it church age but yet you're going you're going to have this small remnant and and the world is just gonna continue to get worse and worse and worse and worse until God finally has enough and He takes that small remnant out and it's time to exert justice on the earth

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Right and It's like they they want to say they're two different groups, but yet they you know, there's a similar pattern in the in the church age that you see in the

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Old Testament and That to me that just it doesn't make sense because if if we believe that the work of Christ on the cross was

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Was and is effectual then it's going to Have an effect in the world

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It's gonna have progress it, you know, we're gonna we're gonna see You know

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We don't want to I Don't want to have a view that That puts the work of Christ in the cross and it's effectual in us

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And say that it's limited or weak, you know I'm saying and and that's not

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I don't want to Insert that into Scripture if it's not there But I don't see that in Scripture That the work of the work of Christ You know is this amazing thing and yet it has no power the world's just going to get worse and worse and worse

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Actually, I see the opposite in Scripture that the the work of Christ is amazing and wonderful and it's going to have an effect in the world

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Right, well the the especially the this the dispensation premillennialist will will believe that Goodness, my my whole brain just shut off Probably listening to me

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They they believe that the work of Christ is effective They believe that it's effective to to his his goals and purposes

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It's actually a lot like Calvinism in that respect different, but there's that similar aspect

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What they would say is that God is being glorified throughout the several dispensations of history that throughout the time know each of the ages

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That God is glorified through the failure of men and the redemption of Of men through Christ, so when the

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Old Covenant failed Christ was there to Usher in salvation when the church fails with the

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Great Commission Christ will return and The Great Commission will then succeed through what they view as the

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Millennial Kingdom. We're sitting on the earth So what they view it as the failure of men in each of the dispensations is overshadowed by the the grace and the success of God through his

38:55

Progress forward through history, even though men have failed at every single point Even though they've been tested and tried at every single point and failed

39:03

God has succeeded where men have failed. I Don't see that in Scripture but That that would that would be what they what they say well, and to me what you just said

39:21

I mean that's why we can I can see a consistency with with the doctrines of grace with the sovereignty of God and this and this

39:27

Postmillennialism eschatology of hope because it's it's all of God. It's all of his work

39:33

It's the work of Christ and what he's doing and if it's his work You know if you're if your doctrine is a great person if you're if you believe in the sovereignty of God, then

39:44

You You believe that he's powerful enough and and that he's going to be successful Because it's his work and and it's not dependent on us

39:55

He does it through us and he uses us but it's his success is not dependent on us That's why he that's why he had to come down and do it, you know do it himself

40:04

Because we failed Right Any other distinct distinguishing factors between oh what

40:15

I did want to bring up this before we move on Because it was one of the what please do.

40:21

Okay. It's one of the things that that you brought up and I think it's important because there It causes a confusion for some people so you were talking about the the progression that Christ is not going to return and come back to a mostly

40:36

Sinful place, but he's gonna come back to a mostly Christianized place. So that that thought

40:46

People often get us confused with the folks that believe in the seven mountain mandate those that are trying to Do this work here on earth to try to coax or draw

41:00

Jesus to come down right and That's not us. That's not what we believe.

41:06

That's not post -millennialism. No, can you explain the difference? Yeah, the major difference is the starting point the seven mountains

41:16

Dominionism sort of sort of doctrine Says that there are seven different areas or spheres of influence that mankind can have on the earth

41:26

I think it's like media family government Church I don't know.

41:33

There's three more. Yeah Three four more But anyway each each of those they then have to engage and work in in order to change them around usher in Make those things

41:49

Christian so that the conditions are proper for Christ to them return So they're working towards the end of Christ return

42:00

What we're saying is post -millennialist is that Christ on the cross accomplished everything that needed to be accomplished then

42:08

He now through the power of the Holy Spirit is doling out giving gifts to men

42:16

Calling a people to repentance to himself in order that when he does return

42:22

He's proof. He's provided for himself a welcome party to greet him to the earth

42:28

So man, so while we have the Great Commission to go out there and preach and disciple the nation's we're not doing the work here

42:35

Christ is doing the work. We're not trying to usher in Christ's return. We're not trying to bring him down to us

42:42

We are remembering that this is God's work from the first to the end and it's a top down sort of thing

42:50

It starts from God and it ends with his feet touching down on the earth

42:56

Instead of us working towards the end where Christ will say, okay, they've done a good enough job

43:02

Let's go back now to be fair Not all of the seven mountains

43:08

Dominion's types are Wild -eyed cuckoo banana brain bird

43:18

Not all of them Um, so there would be some who would say yeah, that's not me.

43:24

I don't believe that they probably have a proper understanding They just been taught through some funky channels.

43:30

We don't want whenever we talk in generalities We don't want to lump everybody in and be rude.

43:35

I hated if somebody talked about me like You know bring up somebody who's just wonky.

43:42

I say well, he was a Calvinist. You're all like that too. No, no That works so I want to make sure that we we don't lump everyone in with the ones who are the most egregious of Those from that camp would be the one saying the things that I was saying, right, right

44:03

That's right. So the next question is how many different brands of post millennial post millennial ism are there?

44:12

How many would you say? 100 ,000 Many is there are post -millennial ism, but if you want to categorize those

44:20

I would categorize them into roughly Three Four Let's say three

44:32

But we'll talk about four. Okay, you know what I mean? You see the answers down First I think it'd be helpful to kind of each of these or alright, the three post millennial perspectives that we're going to talk about here are all gonna have to do with a certain method of interpreting

44:59

Basically the book of Revelation It has to do with a lot of different scriptures, but basically most in -depth the book of Revelation So there's one that we're not going to talk about there's four interpretive

45:12

Methods the one that we're not going to talk about which we've done a lot of talking about already That the pre -millennial dispensational folks hold is called a futurist view that is the view that a lot of Lot of if not all of the prophecy seen throughout the

45:28

Old and New Testament Not all of it new concerning Christ and his first coming They believe that those things have been fulfilled but concerning his second coming they believe that most of those prophecies are yet future

45:40

So when they look they look at these things as being literally fulfilled in future events things

45:46

Off in the distance. That's not going to be what we discussed tonight because that's not a post -millennial perspective, right?

45:54

Besides that there are other ones there is a historicist position which talks about how the

46:05

Bible reveals Um Basically, it's it's a timeline of events throughout history

46:13

Unfolded through the scripture mainly through the book of Revelation That shows what church history is going to look like up until the time of Christ return then you have a an idealist perspective which sees that the most of the things in the book of Revelation are going to Typify what's going to happen between the time of Christ first and second coming and Then you have a preterist perspective

46:41

Which says that most of or all of but we're going to distinguish that here in a second prophecies in the

46:48

New Testament concerning Christ's second coming and the events leading up to it have been or Are being fulfilled

46:58

Now there's two branches of that that we're going to cover real quick One is hyper preterism or full preterism and that says that all of the prophecies concerning Christ's second coming have been

47:09

Fulfilled even the second coming right even the second coming I believe that is a heretical position and that is not because it denies the second coming of Christ the other form of preterism is called orthodox preterism or Partial preterism.

47:27

I don't think we should have to qualify it because it's the right one so I'm going to call it orthodox preterism or just preterism and Know that I'm not talking about that that other one but that's so that a lot of what is written down as as prophecy was future to the author of The book of Revelation even you know in Matthew and Luke and Mark and things it was future to them

47:52

But since that time it is now passed to us so Futurism not going to talk about that one

48:02

Idealism historic or historicism idealism preterism all three of those can be

48:10

Sprinkled it throughout historic pre -millennial ism on millennial ism or post millennial ism so That's just a broad overview of the different Approaches to prophecy which will color what we talk about when we get to post millennial ism itself here in about 2 .7

48:33

seconds Yeah, and we can keep it brief we're running we got about I'd say 12 more minutes if you want to keep it in an hour

48:43

So you can just roughly yeah, so you can just say Explain In in a little more depth what it you know, whatever you'd like to on these those three idealist

48:55

Historicism and preterist you've got on here then on the list that you sent me Optimistic on millennial ism and and when

49:03

I look at when I look that up I was getting the impression that those were

49:11

That's an oxymoron Like I'm not sure how you can have be an optimistic on millennial ist

49:17

All right, so all right, we'll go to that one first because that one is fun there is a there is a brand of millennial ism that is

49:31

Positive and hopeful like the post millennial is About what is going to take place between Christ's first and second coming?

49:42

However and this is what I would use to distinguish between post -millennial ist who haven't wanted to give themselves a name yet and Optimistic on millennial ist is that the optimistic on millennial ist will limit that progress and Expansion of Christ's gospel across the globe to the spiritual realm

50:06

So they're not really looking for any political change. They're not looking for any great strides in society

50:13

But they are looking for a great revival in a spiritual sense Now, I don't know how you have that without the world around you being changed as well

50:25

There you go So there's basically a millennial ist however, they have the optimism of a post millennial ist when it comes to the

50:38

The extent of the Gospels going out in the world. Mm -hmm. Gotcha. Okay So I called myself that for a while before I realized

50:46

I was just a post millennial is There's also those guys out there. Come on home.

50:51

We got I mean that makes sense, that's just Logical along with what we would believe would be biblical, you know if the gospel is gonna have a greater effect spiritually salvific

51:06

Lee you know Because of my submission of Christ it's going to it's going to change and have an effect on the rest of My my personal world and and so it's gonna be the same way for everybody else.

51:21

So yeah, I Don't see how you can just say it's optimistic in in one area.

51:27

Gotcha. Yeah It's a small position Gotcha. Yep Um, the we'll start with the historicist post millennial position

51:38

That one is the one that a lot of folks held to and it's making a comeback

51:46

But a lot of folks held to it back in say Jonathan Edwards time 16 1700s

51:53

It's it's been a fairly the historicist position has been a fairly common one throughout history

52:00

I Well, let's talk about it in terms of post -millennial ism first This particular genre of post -millennial ism

52:13

Does actually believe in a literal 1 ,000 year period now? That's changing with the modern adherence to it, but back historically these

52:27

Did view there's going to be a literal 1 ,000 years No, that may be shaved off 15 years on this side seven years on that side, whatever but they believed in a specific period of time that would begin at a certain time and They would pinpoint it throughout their study of the book of Revelation say at this point

52:47

The Millennium will begin it will last for this long It'll be characterized by these things and they would look at the post -millennial perspective, you know the putting down of sin the extension of life the change in the habits of no wildlife and stuff like that And they would say this is going to happen during that thousand -year period and then

53:13

Christ will return It's the only one of those positions that as a position

53:21

Holds to a literal 1 ,000 year time period now there can be people in the other camps who do but there it's not

53:32

It's not as common But yeah, so a lot of times you'll hear

53:39

Folks who talk about post -millennial post -millennial ism saying they're looking for a golden age

53:47

Golden age is one of those terms from the historic Historicist post -millennial camp that talks about the that 1 ,000 years of that golden age

53:58

And some people try to put that on all But it's just really restricted to that that certain brand of post -millennial ism.

54:07

Okay Yeah What about the idealist the idealist man that idealist position is

54:17

It's convincing it really is When I was an all -millennialist,

54:23

I read a book by a guy named William Hendrickson called more than conquerors. It's his it's his

54:29

Fact I don't know if I have it right here or not Yeah, I do right there but he's an all -millennial guy and he wrote a book that's an it's a

54:43

Interpretation of Revelation from an idealist perspective and he goes through and he shows how the the different Sections of Revelation kind of go in circles over one another and I was able to actually chart out

54:57

You know where these cycles begin where they end and his his arguments through their work somewhat convincing so much so that I'm kind of convinced that at least in an application sense the

55:14

Preterist post -millennialist should probably look to the idealist To at least see what they say is in terms of application to the modern -day

55:30

Christian because while we As we'll see later as we view these things of having as having been accomplished already

55:41

They see them as being recurring themes throughout history So you have the trumpets which are no generally warnings

55:50

You see the warnings going through here blowing trumpets Nations will be warned when they sin when they're going down the wrong path warnings will occur

56:01

Then you have bowls of wrath that are poured out Interesting enough the bowls of wrath are like larger versions of those trumpets

56:10

So when you look at the trumpets, it says a third of the trees a third of the water a third of the land

56:16

Burned up you get to the bowls all of it The bowls talking about God's wrath so the the little things that take place could be signs and symptoms of judgments that are coming they could be warnings given out to hey, you know, you just had a hurricane it may have been just a hurricane or Take stock in what you're doing in regards to God and see if there's a place where you need to repent

56:44

Something of that nature The Most notable was rushed

56:50

Ernie He was an idealist when it came to to eschatology. So when that comes to post -millennial ism

56:57

We see that there are judgments warnings and growth

57:04

The the growth of God through Christ's work on the cross that occurs in cycle throughout all of History now, they don't pinpoint those things in Revelation to specific events.

57:17

They haven't here here here but they do Leave it. Um As a kind of blueprint.

57:25

Hey while you're on your road No, while we're waiting for Christ to return while we're waiting to see his glory spread across the earth

57:33

These are the types of things that you can expect to have Got which

57:39

Very interesting. I don't I think it takes a little bit of license with the text in some places, but there's enough to it that It shouldn't just be written off.

57:50

It should be studied And then the last one the what you call orthodox or partial preterist position of post -millennial ism, yeah

58:00

Yeah, this one is Probably the most simple. I Say that there's a lot to it

58:07

Well, I say it's the most simple because a lot of the passages that people point to in all of the other camps

58:14

They point to as being texts about the end times

58:20

The preterist does not Believe that they believe they believe that those things have been accomplished already for instance

58:30

You go to Matthew 24 and you see talk of sun, moon and stars falling of Tribulation happening to a people of hey when you see this happening run flee to the mountains

58:44

The dispensationalist the the premillennialists a lot of times even some amillennialists will say look here

58:50

This is going on to The end times. This is something that's yet future to us.

58:56

It's often the future The preterist recognizes that when Jesus then later on in that same chapter says that all of these things will

59:06

All of these things will take place before this generation passes away Right that those things are going were events that were happening in the lifetimes of those people who were

59:16

Hearing the words that we're reading It's called more than conquerors by William Hendrickson, I don't know if I can get that straight or not, it's weird

59:34

There you go Where were we

59:44

Partial preterist. Yeah. Yeah, so it's simple because a lot of we have less text to deal with when it comes to What what does it mean for post -millennialism

01:00:00

We have our texts restricted to the very end of Revelation where we see the new heavens and the new earth expanding

01:00:07

A lot of the Psalms ton of the Psalms The Old Testament prophets places in the first like first Thessalonians talking about the second coming of Christ No other other texts like that, but we're restricted

01:00:25

Because a lot of the texts that people will point to as being in times related We just don't see them as being related to the end times.

01:00:32

They're related to events surrounding the end of the first the Old Covenant So We we actually have a lot in common with the idealists that we're not trying to pinpoint

01:00:48

Events in history. We're saying that Christ is going to do a specific thing.

01:00:53

He's coming and he's going to Rule over the earth. He has all authority in heaven and on earth.

01:00:59

He's told us to disciple the nations We can expect those things to be successful because he is doing the work truly really

01:01:06

And we can take it to the bank that what he has set out to do will succeed

01:01:13

Yeah, those are the basic positions in a nutshell Well, I mean there's so much more that you know

01:01:22

I was just thinking about things that I could say so much more we could talk about but Let's I guess we need to try to wrap it up and look at this last question and this last question that you sent to me kind of It took me in a you know

01:01:35

Direction of wanting to convince people of post -millennialism So so your your comment question was post -millennialists claim that there's a large theme of gospel victory in the

01:01:46

Bible Where do where do they or where do we get that from and to me? that kind of puts you and I in the direction of Showing people are convincing people that post -millennialism is is biblical why you should believe in post -millennialism

01:02:02

It when we start showing people that you know, the gospel victory and and the the scriptural support for for that so so, where do you see this theme of gospel victory and And how would you convince people to come over to the post millennial camp?

01:02:22

I see it everywhere It's It's all over the place man.

01:02:28

It is everywhere. I've got my Bible open to to the Psalms right now So we'll just start in here

01:02:35

Real quick Psalm 2 says I Will tell of the decree the

01:02:43

Lord said to me you are my son Speaking of the father talking about the Son Jesus today.

01:02:48

I have begotten you Ask of me and I will make the nation's your heritage and the ends of the earth your possession

01:02:55

You shall break them with the rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel

01:03:01

Do it was Christ really promised the nations of the earth if he were just to ask and he didn't ask

01:03:07

I don't think so Christ Asked for those things he asked for the nation's and they were given to him we pop over a couple more to Psalm 110 says the most quoted verse and all of the

01:03:27

New Testament from the Old Testament The Lord says to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet

01:03:37

Now we have to think about this one just a little bit. But who are the enemies of God? Sinners and what was the purpose of the cross?

01:03:47

To take those who were sinners and Redeem them to make them sinners no more to wash their sin away to make them redeemed and righteous individuals

01:03:56

So if the work that's being done that the father says here son You who have just gone to the grave and risen again sit at my right hand until your enemies

01:04:06

Those sinners who are seeking to destroy our creation are made a footstool for your feet either they're going to one be destroyed through the wrath of God or to The work that Christ did on the cross took their sin away

01:04:20

So the enemies are no longer enemies. Either the enemies are put down as a footstool or they're made as friends

01:04:27

We look over at Matthew 24 24 18 through 20 it says

01:04:38

All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. This is Jesus after he's risen from the dead

01:04:45

He says therefore no because I have all authority here are your marching orders go

01:04:51

Disciple the nations Baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit Teaching them to obey all that.

01:04:59

I've commanded you and behold I will be with you always even to the end of the age as Christ promised to be there with them and His command for them to go do something will it fail?

01:05:11

Mm -hmm. No, no, it won't because why they're not doing it in their own strength

01:05:22

All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth there's another Place and I'm blanking on where a bit talks about how the glory of the

01:05:32

Lord is going to spread over the earth It says, you know, how will this be accomplished the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this, right?

01:05:41

And there's there's many many others I'm trying to look 42 go ahead.

01:05:49

I'm sorry Go there, I like it. Um verse verse 4 he will he will not be disheartened or crushed

01:06:04

So, there you go, he's not gonna be disappointed until he has established justice in the earth

01:06:12

Right, there you go and the coastlands will wait expectantly for his law, right?

01:06:19

Right the same thing you see in in Daniel 2 You see the the small stone hitting the feet of the statue talking about the kingdoms it goes

01:06:29

Grow until it fills the entire earth the putting away of sin fully and finally in Daniel 9

01:06:39

You see the the waters that Believe us

01:06:46

John was in Or maybe those Ezekiel either way one of them one of them good guys

01:06:54

Had to go out and watch the water from the temple those blood in Ezekiel and it's water in Revelation where it talks about water being up to the ankles and then up to the knees and then up to the the horse's bridle and then swimming the water coming straight from the throne of God the water that is purifying the earth all of these things

01:07:21

Help me out on one more passage the References is leaving me or it left me and I can't think of it right now

01:07:29

But the the the Christmas passage in in Isaiah as in Isaiah what nine?

01:07:37

Isaiah nine, I think I thought it was later on For unto us a child was born.

01:07:49

That's it. Yeah Given the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called wonderful counselor mighty

01:07:56

God Prince of peace of The increase of his government and of peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom forever to establish

01:08:04

It and uphold it with justice and righteousness from this time forth and forevermore Hey, look you here the zeal of the

01:08:11

Lord of hosts will do it. There you go There you go, I mean it is post -millennialism all over the place.

01:08:20

Yeah Christ will Increase his kingdom and he will be successful and now

01:08:27

I do want to bring up something because there there is a There is a lot to be said about there being heartache and pain in the world a

01:08:38

Ton yeah, and it is Rough And when we look into the

01:08:47

Bible, there's a lot about being comforted. There's a lot about feeling feeling this pain feeling the

01:08:54

The the struggle about how things may get worse things make it bad Your enemies are gonna come for you

01:09:00

Satan's prowling around like a lion. So, how are you guys saying? That these things are going to come about Let's look real quick at at Psalm 34

01:09:13

I Acted like I was getting ready to preach hold on Remember that we gotta keep it short

01:09:22

Psalm 34 starting in 17 says When the righteous cry for help the

01:09:29

Lord hears and delivers them out of all their troubles The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit

01:09:38

Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all he keeps all his bones

01:09:43

Not one of them is broken Affliction will slay the wicked and those who hate righteous or hate the righteous will be condemned

01:09:51

The Lord redeems the life of his servants. None of those who take refuge in him will be condemned a couple things

01:10:00

Verses 17 and 18 every single pronoun that you find there is in the plural in verses 1920 and 21 those pronouns

01:10:17

Are all singular John tells us why in his gospel

01:10:23

I'm not gonna turn there or read or anything But he says that When Jesus was on the cross he was on the cross and he was about to they're breaking the legs of the people on the cross

01:10:34

They would die faster They got to him and he was dead His legs were not broken his bones weren't broken and why weren't his bones broken?

01:10:46

his bones weren't broken because of This right here in the singular and this passage in the

01:10:52

Psalms is talking about Christ He keeps all of his bones affliction or Wickedness will slay the wicked and all those who hate the righteous will be condemned

01:11:10

But the Lord redeems the life of his servants He goes back to the plural there in the face of people's

01:11:21

Struggle in the face of abject wickedness in the world

01:11:27

What hope do we have? That the world will be overcome with the gospel of Christ before he returns

01:11:38

Well because of all these other passages and this one we see that Christ wasn't

01:11:45

He wasn't kept from the cross But he was kept from having his legs broken

01:11:52

Having his bones broken God's promises to him were faithful and true

01:12:00

God's promises to his people in the midst of their struggle in the midst of trial and tribulation the midst of things actually being terrible and bad and wicked is

01:12:11

That God preserves his people and how did he preserve his people? He preserved them through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ This is why when it says he keeps all of his bones

01:12:22

You think Christ kept his bones because God the Father was faithful to him

01:12:27

Christ going to the cross going to the grave and raising again. God was faithful to him in all of those things

01:12:35

So when we look back up here into verse 17, and it says the righteous cry for help

01:12:41

The Lord hears and delivers them for trouble When we hear that the Lord is near to the broken -hearted and saves the crushed in spirit

01:12:50

We take it to the bank that the gospel will overthrow the earth because as bad as it gets

01:13:00

God will wipe away the tears of those who weep He will mend the broken heart and he will uphold the crushed spirit

01:13:10

We know that Looking at things a certain way

01:13:17

We can get disheartened, but we're not disheartened because we know the one who went to the cross

01:13:25

We know his father We know that they were faithful and true in all things and they'll be faithful and true to their word

01:13:33

That the gospel will overtake the earth as well and that we will be saved from our sins And just just to wrap it up just a couple other passages that that may help

01:13:46

Help you see What we see and maybe help convince you about the post -millennial perspective

01:13:55

You've got the you got the two passages That speak of this progression in the

01:14:00

New Testament Where the the leaven will will leaven the whole lump So a little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump and it's it's a progressive thing where it starts off small

01:14:09

You know, it'll leaven the whole lump and that's a picture Jesus says what does the kingdom look like?

01:14:15

This is a picture of the kingdom. He says or Or the mustard seed it starts the smallest seed in the garden.

01:14:23

He said but then I'll grow up The the largest plant in the garden will it where all the birds will come find refuge in its branches

01:14:31

So Jesus is saying there that this is a picture of his kingdom that it starts out small

01:14:36

But it will progressively Get larger and larger and larger just like all those

01:14:41

Old Testament passages that that Dan was reading to us that it it will be successful and conquer conquer the whole earth

01:14:51

If I'm quoting him correctly, I think Gary DeMar said that those those passages are more like proof text

01:14:56

But they're good. He says they're good proof text, but they're still proof text the place that he Went to and and if I understood him correctly, he went to 2nd

01:15:06

Timothy chapter 3 of a more a better passage for him to explain

01:15:14

The the eschatology of hope the progression of it and and I'll just read the first several verses

01:15:20

But in chapter 3 it says but Realize this that in the last days difficult times will come for men will be lovers of self lovers of money boastful

01:15:27

Arrogant revilers disobedient parents ungrateful unholy unloving unreconcilable malicious gossips without sub control brutal

01:15:35

Haters of good treacherous reckless conceited lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power avoid such men as these for among them are those who enter the households and Captivate weak women weighed down with sins led on by various impulses always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth

01:15:57

Just as Janice and Jambres opposed Moses. So these men also opposed the truth

01:16:02

Men of the prayed mind rejected in regard to the faith now here it is, but they will make no further progress

01:16:11

And I think that was Gary to Mars point there that you have all these bad things

01:16:16

You have all these wicked things that are taking place that are going to take place from from Paul's perspective here

01:16:22

But just just have this hope that just like Janice and Jambres They will make no further progress

01:16:33

And so we you know, we can We can have this hope that that Christ is going to accomplish this ending of evil on Earth and he will accomplish his his effectual calling of of those who will be saved and And those who will be saved will have an effect on The world around them and that's how that's how we're discipling the nations and calling all people to submit to the

01:17:00

King of Kings and the Lord of Lords the God of this universe and its Savior who's sitting on the throne and if If you will if you won't hope

01:17:10

If you want to find hope there's hope in the gospel of Jesus Christ if If he has awakened you to to your sinfulness that you have sinned against him that you've broken his law

01:17:22

There there's hope to be found Jesus I'm the second person of the

01:17:28

Trinity God himself came down out of heaven outside of this world because we needed in what they call an alien righteousness something outside of this world to come in because There's nothing within this creation nothing within ourselves that could they could save I Cannot say myself and no one on this earth or anything in this earth could save me

01:17:50

If we've all been affected by the curse that was put on Adam and Eve that that they brought on all humanity on all mankind on all of creation and it took

01:18:02

God himself To give of himself on the cross to take on our sin to satisfy the wrath of God and he did it and As proof he rose from the grave and he's alive forever more and he sits on the throne forever more and his kingdom will be forever more and There is our hope of salvation that we can be saved that we can be saved out of the the troubles of this world that he has a purpose and a plan for it and in it and We can we can have lots of babies because he's going to Conquer this world.

01:18:38

We don't have to worry about bringing children into this world because he's he's ushering in through his timetable victory in this world

01:18:49

So there's there's hope in Everything it may not be all on our timetable

01:18:55

But there's hope and in all things because Christ has won the victory and he's drawing all nations to himself

01:19:01

But we can be assured that if we call upon him if we repent of our sins and put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ he promised to save us and forgive us of our sins

01:19:11

And if you haven't done that we would encourage you to do that this evening or whenever you watch or listen to this

01:19:18

Podcast and by the way, we really appreciate it. Thank you for watching We'd love it. If you'd share it like it do all those fun things that you do on social media

01:19:28

Just to help us and support us getting the gospel out and getting this biblical teaching out

01:19:33

Dan if you don't mind, would you close us in prayer? Sure Dear Heavenly Father Thank you for today for giving us a chance to get together and speak about your word for being encouraged by Your promises and pray that we would take these things out into the world with us we would do the work that you have set out before us from the beginning of time that we would

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Remember your salvation and all of it pray these things in Christ's name. Amen Amen.

01:20:01

Thank you Dan for all your insight and and help on this discussion. And we thank you again for watching and Again, would you share it if you're so inclined we'd really appreciate it

01:20:12

And as always remember we want you to remember that Jesus is King go live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.