February 17, 2017 Show with Mike Abendroth on “Evangelical White Lies”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

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Earth listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz in your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this 17th day of February 2017 and I'm welcoming back my co -host

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Reverend buzz Taylor. It's great to see you buzz And we have as our guest today for the very first time on iron sharpens iron

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Mike Abendroth He is pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, Massachusetts Adjunct professor at the

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky he's the author of Jesus Christ the prince of preachers and The sovereignty and supremacy of King Jesus bowing to the gracious despot

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We are going to be addressing Evangelical white lies and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron for the very first time pastor

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Mike Abendroth Oh, yes,

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I can hear you brother Yes your co -pastor

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Yeah, well that was a delight to have Steve on the program also my first interview with him and I look forward to having

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Him back and from the list of books that you have written I'm sure God willing that you will be back on the program a number of times

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If not many times in the future and I look forward to that as well Steve Cooley has been raving about What an excellent guest you will be and I'm very confident.

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He will be correct First of all, tell our listeners something about Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts We are

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In central, Massachusetts just north of a city called Worcester. It looks like Worcester, but it's

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Worcester Wow, you pronounce it in a different way than I've heard people from that area pronounce it Well from Boston you say

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Worcester in Worcester you say Worcester, okay We have been here

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I have been here 20 years now I just celebrated my 20th anniversary Moved from Los Angeles out here to central,

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Mass The church 20 years ago was a Baptist General Conference Church. We're just now

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Non -affiliated Baptist Church. I typically don't say an independent Baptist because that has other connotations

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Yeah, and we're simply just known for teaching the Bible verse by verse. We're in the book of Hebrews now and Just week after week talking about the supremacy and exaltation of Christ Jesus we have elders who lead and shepherd the church a

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Congregation that loves to hear Bible teaching and I tell the congregation if you love Jesus, you'll love this church

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Because if you love, you know, wonderful parking lots or special deluxe pew chairs or something else

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We'll probably let you down. But when you talk about the Lord Jesus, he'll never let you down and I understand that you are a

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Theologically Reformed Church and dispensationalist Well, I think the first one is correct.

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I Call myself a dispensationalist. I I see the world covenantally with the covenant of redemption and works and grace

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But I would be pre -millennial. Well, I gotta tell you I'm very familiar with your neighborhood

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I used to go to Shrewsbury and Worcester Every day for about five years in a row

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I used to live in Maine and I drove a truck up there and that's I went to your rail yard

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And so we had a yard in Shrewsbury. So I've been through those streets a lot

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Yeah, I have a friend who's a pastor not far from Boston and I can still remember him saying to me.

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Hey, brother When you are a kid, did you used to potty and I'm thinking to myself does he mean did

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I was I potty trained? What is he talking about? Oh, you mean did I party did I use? Recreational drugs or something?

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Oh, okay Well, my all -time favorite t -shirt is from Maine and it has the words

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BA H a BA for its bar Harbor, but without the

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R's it properly And of course remember to cook the lobster slowly kids you can't

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Harry a lobster I Have family up your way.

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So just stepped on his Dunkin Donuts comment. What was that? What was that brother if you were saying something about Dunkin Donuts?

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Oh, there's just a Dunkin Donuts on every single corner and Yes, I do have family so could you just repeat the name of the church once again for me

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I was writing it down. I didn't get it all down. Sure. It's called Bethlehem Bible Church It's in West Boylston right by the reservoir.

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You're the co -host and you ask him for this information I have it have it right in front of me. Well, yeah You weren't giving it to me

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Well, I'm gonna be repeating it quite often during the two -hour program. You don't need to get any more information now buzz

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I will give it to you Let's hear something about What you teach there at the

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary I've had Al Mohler as a guest on my program.

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I've had one of the retired faculty Tom Nettles on my program many times

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Dr. Michael Haken has been on this program and a several others that escaped my memory right now

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But I've had quite a number of of the faculty at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary on iron sharpens iron

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Tell us about what specifically you teach there Sure, we have a right down the street in a city called

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Northboro an adjunct campus for Southern Seminary And so I teach the homiletics class there.

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It's called proclamation and we talk about expository preaching a high view of Christ Christ Center preaching and so I teach the preaching class or homiletics at Southern Seminary here in Massachusetts great and before we go into the

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Book at hand evangelical white lies Tell us about the other books that you've written

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Jesus the Prince of Preachers and the sovereign sovereignty and supremacy of King Jesus bowing to the gracious despot

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Well, it was years ago. I was in the car with Sinclair Ferguson not to drop any names And I was telling about I would like to write something and he said well don't write any books about Jesus because they don't

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I I'm hoping he was he was

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I mean, I'm not saying he was joking about the fact that they don't sell but I was hoping He was joking about trying to discourage you from writing a book

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Well, I wrote my first two books. I've written six books. There were about Jesus and he was in fact, correct

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They didn't But I was thinking about Jesus the preacher we have lots of liberals who will say study

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Jesus the preacher because he he talked in a Layman, you know vernacular and he just did parables and it wasn't this set of the other and I thought you know what?

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There's a lot we can learn as evangelicals from the preaching style of Jesus. So that was book one Second book was if you understand a king

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In America, you think every four years you vote him out or every eight years you vote him in But constitutional monarchs in the

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UK. We just don't quite grasp what it was like to be under King And so if you understand what

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Jesus is like as a Near Eastern Oriental monarch You would understand

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The sovereignty of God so that was a book about Jesus the king he's called despot in the

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New Testament, but of course a wonderful death but a Benevolent despot and so that was a second.

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I don't know if you men are familiar with s Lewis Johnson's work at all Oh, yeah. In fact, I had the privilege in the 1990s when

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Brother Johnson was still with us I was at a Bible conference in New Ringgold, Pennsylvania, and he was one of the speakers and I had the privilege of having him ask me

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To sit down and have lunch with him Which I did and at that time I had not even been hosting a radio program and had a really wonderful time

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Together with that dear brother who is now in eternity with Christ. But what a what a remarkable

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Man, he was and what a gift to the body of Christ Well, I'm glad you got to spend some time with him

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I put together his information on a Roman for a commentary called discovering

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Romans Zondervan published his family specifically his daughter Grace and I has struck up a friendship and partnership in ministry and so I'm authorized to publish his works and Colossians discovering

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Colossians should be out sometime probably in 2017 so the first work was a few years ago discovering

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Romans Just working through Romans 5 and federal headship Adam I think it's a

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One of s Lewis Johnson's favorite quotes is from Thomas Goodwin the Puritan every man is either hanging on Adam or Christ girdle and just thinking about who we are in Adam or in Christ and Then I wrote a book on sexual fidelity chapter of 30 chapters a little bit of information that I would give to my son about the topic and Then evangelical white lies, so that's kind of a little bio

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Great and tell us about no compromise radio and how our listeners can hear that and when?

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Sure, we used to be a local radio station here in Worcester, but radio is fairly expensive. So now it's just podcast

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No compromise radio calm. I started off seven years ago with this Monday to Friday Show thinking, you know,

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I don't want to compromise and that was kind of a theme, you know, we don't want to compromise but the more the show has kind of Matured it's really let's talk about Jesus because can you imagine he never did compromise as much as I don't want to compromise

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I I have and I will and to my shame Do compromise the

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Lord Jesus even when he spoke of the father? He said I always do the things that are pleasing to the father.

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And of course the father saying of the son This is my beloved son in whom

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I am. Well, please So I try to talk about Jesus a lot on the show and then also his work and you think about at Calvary Neither justice nor love was compromised how to uphold the justice and righteousness of God and yet still show

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Sinner to grace that could only be done in Calvary Well, I don't want to compromise It's more about who

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Jesus is and his person in the work Monday to Friday Tuesday I have Steve on pastor

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Steve that you had on last week We call him the Tuesday guy and I know that you had him on your show on Wednesday.

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So now he's branching out Great well I will want to announce our email address for those of you who would like to submit questions for our guests pastor

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Mike Abendroth Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the good ole

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USA and Please only remain anonymous if it is for a compelling reason

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For instance if you disagree with your own pastor on something we're addressing Something like that.

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I understand that we would want you to remain anonymous In fact, if you were doing such a thing making a comment about something like that.

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I wouldn't mention your name anyway, but We look forward to hearing from you with whatever question that you might have at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and as I said, we are addressing your book evangelical white lies very

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Fascinating title definitely grabbed my attention. Tell us about The genesis of this book why you in fact wrote it and what is the premise of it?

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Yeah, thanks, Chris. What I was working through in my life is You know people believe things but why do they believe them and maybe you say well

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I believe in them because my parents taught me My Roman Catholic priest taught me my

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Lutheran pastor taught me My Baptist pastor taught me why do we believe what we believe and of course?

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We have to say the Bible is Is the plumb line? So do we believe things based on the

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Bible and have we studied things for ourselves? Doesn't do any good if a lay person or anyone says

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I just believe what that guy says, you know Phil Johnson said it I therefore believe it or as Lewis Johnson for that matter

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So I thought I'd just pick a title that was fairly provocative My tagline for the radio show is always biblical always provocative always in that order

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And I thought you know what? I'm just gonna go after some low -hanging fruit things that evangelicals believe they've heard them so often

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They think they're true, but end up being not biblical. So that's why

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I titled the book evangelical white lies So how many did you come up with and how did you choose what to include?

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There probably could be you know part one part two, I'm sure of that And so I chose 12 of them and that was basically

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You know 50 60 thousand words worth by the way I think buzz what he told me privately earlier is that he came up with this idea after receiving your tape library from when you

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Were a pastor your sermon your sermon tapes It's just kidding.

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Well back then that might have been true That's right. You've been through quite a

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Evolution for lack of a better term. But anyway Many years I thought to myself, you know these

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Inept people at the church who work the audio -visual stuff They forgot to record one of my sermons and they didn't put it online and I'd spent you know 30 hours preparing that sermon.

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What are they thinking? And then now I look back and say they were dear people and they were doing the world a favor by not putting

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But by the way, I just want to quick I have to since you brought up Sinclair Ferguson on a car ride

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No less. I have to tell you a very brief funny story about Sinclair Ferguson He preached at the church where I was a member on Long Island, New York Back in the 1990s and then

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Asked a deacon and I to drive him to Connecticut where his next speaking engagement was and this was quite a long trip to Connecticut with Dr.

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Ferguson who one of my modern -day heroes and I Noticed why he does not like radio interviews because every time

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I asked him a question He would pause and think for five minutes before answering it

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And I said he was in the backseat and I was in the front and I kept thinking did he hear me because I didn't

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Hear any response, but then eventually he would answer and one of my questions was Dr.

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Ferguson. What do you think about theonomy? And I hear this long pause of silence and then from the backseat

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I hear I don't have a problem with theonomy It's theonomists.

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I have a problem And Then our car broke down And the driver the deacon that was driving got out of the car and he

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Came back into the stuck his head back in the car. He says I can't believe it the front driver's side tire is nearly completely broken off the axle four of the five bolts are

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Broken and it's only held on by one bolt and Sinclair Ferguson said only one of the five bolts is holding on the tire

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Could the Lord be telling us that only one of the five points of Calvinism is true

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But anyway, sorry about that I just had to tell you that since you you actually had a story about Sinclair Ferguson in a car

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So I had to I had to say that And I said to dr.

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Ferguson, I don't know why asking this question was back in 1996 I said And he looked at me and he after the pause he said

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The Lord is simultaneously Exercising all of his attributes.

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That is what he's doing right now. Hmm, and I thought that is so good Well years later.

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I took a class at Ligonier a d -min program a doctorate program and was Sitting in the room with dr.

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Ferguson and I said I am so thankful for that answer that you gave Back in 96 at that Ligonier conference.

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What is the Lord doing right now? He said what did I tell you for the answer? I said dr.

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Ferguson. You said the Lord is simultaneously Exercising all of his attributes and then dr.

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Ferguson looked at me and said that's a good answer Quite a humble man as well

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Well, you you start off your book evangelical white lies With you can live the gospel, please explain.

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Yeah. Sure How this book is a it's a little different in the sense It's almost like a radio show for Zondervan and the

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Romans commentary It had to be very technical and the first couple books about Jesus, you know

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Lots of Hebrew and Greek kind of quotes This is almost like a popular level book and I just see everywhere people are saying you can live the gospel

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And I'm trying to make the difference between something that's proclaimed or heralded the

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Greek word with Caruso to proclaim something it's like you stand on your tiptoes to say something you increase the volume of what you're going to say

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That's quite different than saying, you know what? I'm gonna live this out When my son was born

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I I called people and said, you know, it's a boy Or you might say when your daughter's born. It's a it's a girl

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Paul makes it very clear that the gospel isn't something you live Of course in light of the gospel

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We live and Paul says in Ephesians 4 walk in a manner worthy of your calling

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That is true, but you can't live the gospel because it's something that needs to be

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Proclaimed and so I was trying to deconstruct that a little bit when Paul was talking about I delivered to you as a first importance

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What I received that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures first Corinthians 15 that he was buried that he was raised

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In the third day in accordance with the scriptures. You can't live that it's news You don't have as Michael Horton says these news commentators, you know acting things out

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They deliver the news and that's what the gospel is. It's good news Yeah, in fact If that were true that you could live out the gospel

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There would probably be very few if any martyrs that ever that ever lived Because the reason that they were being put to death and still are in some parts of the world

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Is because they proclaim the gospel if they are just being wonderful members of their community and even obedient citizens

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They are very often or most often not going to be Persecuted in any way.

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It's because of what they're telling people And I'm sure I'm sure that this was somehow motivated by friendship evangelism or lifestyle of angel

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Evangelism. Well, that's exactly right and I address that in the book, you know lifestyle evangelism and friendship evangelism

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If you mean by that, you know be kind and be nice and and live a life in and you know

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As a Christian would live fine become somebody's friend and and preach the gospel to your friends.

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Okay, I understand that But friendship evangelism typically is kind of code for I'm too afraid to say to someone

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You're a sinner and you're in grave danger and there's only one remedy the

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Lord Jesus Christ the God man We just don't want to talk. So then we say well, I'm just going to kind of secretly, you know, live the gospel out

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It's like that book the fifth gospel, you know Maybe the only gospel people will ever read not

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Matthew not Mark not Luke John not John but maybe you and if that's true, then there's no hope for anybody because How could

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I ever live that kind of lifestyle? I'm gonna fail somehow, but the message isn't gonna fail and just like Machen said we need to give people

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Triumphant indicatives and that is to say statements about Jesus About his death burial and resurrection

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Even Jesus if there was one person who is going to do lifestyle evangelism and not say anything

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But just live a godly life. It would be Jesus because he could By his sinless nature, but he didn't can he proclaim repent for the kingdom of God is at hand even

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Jesus the perfect God man made the proclamation and began to preach

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City after city after city in Mark chapter 1 they wanted him to just keep healing and The disciples were hunting for him.

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Peter was looking for him He said everyone's looking for you and Jesus said I'm here Basically not on a healing crusade, although that that goes part and parcel with the suffering servant of Isaiah But I'm here to preach and so then when he went to other villages to preach and so to For the gospel it must be proclaimed because it is actually good news.

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Yeah, in fact We brought this up even yesterday, I believe on our discussion with Ken samples that the

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Jews never would have cried out for Christ's death if they did not know that he was claiming to be

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God and So even Jesus Christ himself It is not just simply that he did in fact, of course, this is a cardinal truth of The gospel itself.

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It's a part of the gospel that he lived a completely obedient and sinless life

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But he did more than that. He taught he he proclaimed truth.

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He proclaimed the gospel he he identified who he was and So therefore that is the reason the

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Jews took such great offense to him Absolutely. Well, you know what things

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I've been noticing. I'm going over to Germany next. Well in the next couple months for Reformation 500

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I think Steve Lawson will be there Phil Johnson. I'm doing a breakout session on this exact topic and Think about it this way

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It was though I think it was an old Ritter both quote and he was talking about Calvin and Luther when they preached they preached the focus was on the redemptive event that is they talked about Jesus's life death and resurrection and Ritter boss said now comes pietism and mysticism and moralism and everything shifted

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So we don't talk about the redemptive event anymore of Jesus. We talked about individual appropriation

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How I accepted Jesus and what's happened to me since I did now,

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I'm very glad and happy We're all glad that when Jesus saves us

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There's something to be described from the human perspective. That is conversion But we have to be focused on especially with our evangelism and proclamation the emphasis on the redemptive event

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Not what happened to me and I think you'll see that when Paul is writing in 1st Corinthians 15

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Every verb is talking about Jesus It's kind of amazing way to write 1st

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Corinthians 15 if you talk about he was buried he died He was raised the focus is on Christ and his life and his vicarious substitution

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And I tell people when you're giving your testimony How do you give your testimony?

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This is how I let Jesus save me. This is what happened to me or First and with primary emphasis

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Here's who Jesus is. This is why he came and this is how he saved sinners.

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God saves us And so I think that needs to be the focus in evangelicalism and from the pulpit itself and obviously we learn in the epistle of James that It is true that our

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Christian life is not to be word only we do have to live out our faith.

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We do have to bear good fruit in order to be considered a Genuine member of the body of Christ not only by our fellow

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Christians, but especially by God we have in order for us to be

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In order for us to have any faith or hope and peace that we were that we will enter into eternal life

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We have to Know that we are bearing fruit that is a

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Natural product of a good tree, which is a regenerate person, correct?

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Yeah, well what happens is Chris and I know you know this for the sake of the listeners you think about okay

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Cause and effect if we just use that the cause of our salvation is the sovereign grace of God the triune

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God Saves us and even when Paul is preaching Testis in Acts 26.

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He said for the king knows about these things and to him I speak boldly For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice for this has not been done in a corner

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I mean, this is the public nature of Jesus's ministry It's not this internal appropriation, but after we have been saved, of course

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We're different and you know God regenerates us and we're new creatures in Christ Jesus and we now love what we used to hate we hate what we used to love and Paul Paul says, you know in Romans that were

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Justified by faith alone and yet James not contradictory but fighting a different enemy says you you can't say you have faith without having any works because one would betray the other and Luther would say it thinking of the

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Reformation since I know I'm going to Germany soon You know, you are going to have a faith that works

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Because that is what God does in you I mean, can you imagine the God of the universe works in you and there's nothing to show for it

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Well when it comes to salvation, that's true There's nothing to show for it, but God will affect you and there will be fruit

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Even if you think of the thief on the cross Right away there was gospel fruit Not that it saved him, but he bore witness to the

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Jesus who did save him even there on that tree and thank God that Luther in some asks of some aspects was inconsistent because he did want to throw

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Jimmy in the stove Meaning the book the epistle of James because he had great problems with it at least initially

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Yeah, well what happens with Luther as you watch him? He's he's living of course in Roman Catholicism's world of all kinds of law and Law and law and then he realizes okay the law gospel distinction and the bifurcation with law and gospel

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He had a great hate and a disdain for any law group that didn't have the gospel

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So whether it was the Jews or the Mohammedans or the Roman Catholics anything that was

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Law Heavy, but gospel light he he went after with a vengeance And so then he stumbles of course on James, and I believe there are 52 imperatives in a hundred and four verses in James and the only time

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Jesus has spoken of And his redemptive work isn't even discussed is in James chapter 2

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And so that's where that's where Luther has the problem Because he's he's living in a law world and he's wanting the gospel

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I mean, I obviously think James is canonical and I think if we the listeners

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Think about it this way It's one of the first books in the New Testament ever written Maybe the first one and you think about Matthew Mark Luke and John are bearing witness to Jesus Jesus is off the scene now he's ascended into heaven in the first book that the

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Church gets is James and basically it's to live out your faith And so when you think about progressive revelation

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James makes sense because Jesus is off the scene That is he's ascended and then now these are the exhortations for holy living

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We're going to a break right now If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Thanks to those of you who already

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Waiting patiently for your questions to be asked and answered and as the Reverend buzzes told me before how do you know?

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They're waiting patiently. I Don't know that but thank you for waiting Not much you could do about it,

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I guess but we will get to as many of you as we can when we come back from the break and Before I forget

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I do want to ask what I ask you Or I should say I want to reemphasize a clarification about the epistle of James when we return

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But then we'll move on to the other chapters in your book Don't go away. We are going to be back with White lies.

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No not from us. I'm talking about we're going to be discussing Evangelical white lies the book by Mike Abendroth when we return and again, our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away.

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We'll be right back after these messages. God willing I am

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Call them at six three one nine, two nine thirty five twelve for service times six three one nine, two nine

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Thirty five twelve or check out their website at wrbc .us

34:45

That's wrbc .us Hi, I'm pastor

34:57

Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

35:04

Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie540am .com

35:13

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

35:20

Our time will be lively Useful and I assure you never dull join us this Saturday at 12 noon

35:26

Eastern Time For a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back

35:31

This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest for the full two hours today is Pastor Mike Ebenroth And we are discussing his book evangelical white lies

35:41

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

35:47

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you have a question for Pastor Ebenroth and As I said before the break,

35:56

I wanted to have you clarify something that is very important. It is no trivial matter that Some people who profess to be

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Christian like our friends and neighbors in the Church of Rome They It is no trivial matter that they believe

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That the good fruit That is born in a Christian's life is actually

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Comeritus in regarding his entering into eternal life that these things are not only

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Evidences and fruits that they are in fact Coagents of redemption are they not and it is is that not a heretical and damnable lie?

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Think about What happened at the fall so many? Questions can be solved by a proper answer a biblical answer what happened in the garden when

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Adam as our federal head ate that fruit and Was the consequences of that and so when

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I think of a book like Romans and how it talks about righteousness It says in Romans 4 verse 5 and to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies ungodly

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His faith is counted as righteousness. And so when you think about what kind of Comeritus works and what we contribute

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Horatius Bonar was right. We contribute sin and only sin and That's our part for salvation.

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And so God declares ungodly people As righteous based on the righteous work of Christ Jesus and so any kind of co -mingling between our works and God's works

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Immediately swerve you off into the heresy end And so that's where the Reformers Calvin and Luther and others made clear

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It is not just by grace or by faith. It's by grace alone and faith alone period

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Yes, and I have some Catholic friends who insist that they are

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Basically saying the same thing that we're just saying that good works are a necessary evidence And that is not what the

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Church Rome teaches as a part of its dogma at all they teach in fact If you take the time after the program is over if you look up the anathemas of the

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Council of Trent Look it up on a Roman Catholic website to make sure you're getting an accurate list there

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One of the anathemas is specifically against those who believe that works are only a necessary Evidence or fruit of genuine justification

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So they the Church of Rome has cursed to hell That in their anathemas people who have the historic

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Reformation understanding of good works as being necessary evidence of genuine justification and No matter what a liberal

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Catholic or moderate Catholic an ecumenical Catholic may say in the 21st century and even no matter how liberal their

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Pope is the dogmas that have been pronounced ex cathedra that are binding for Catholics are going to be an forever on this earth the part of their system until it collapses because once they admit that they've infallibly declared anything that is later to be proven wrong they cannot even exist as a religion

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Right. Am I right? Yeah, that's exactly right. And so what happens is I Try I mean my

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I have relatives who are Roman Catholic and a dear grandmother who is Roman Catholic I want to try to be nice and and not make this some kind of personal issue or anything like that, but I really

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Care about truth number one and I I care about souls as well And so if I'm telling a

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Roman Catholic listen, you're believing in a false system false Jesus false salvation

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I'm concerned for you Well, then it turns into I'm a Catholicator, but I often tell my

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Catholic friends, but I don't have in my statement of faith Something about Catholics are damned to hell like Council of Trent if you think of justification by faith alone

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Anathema cursed damned to hell it's still and you know, that's an existing

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Doctrine of Rome if you don't believe that there's grace in the mass You're damned to hell and the list goes on and on and on and so I Just want

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Roman Catholics to study their Bible and then also take a look at Trent and you'll see very very clearly

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That you know evangelicals and Catholics aren't the same and only one can be right Maybe both are wrong, but both can't be right and so you have to pick and choose and that's why it's such a a damning thing

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Chris and buzz when evangelicals and Catholics Are co -belligerents and they get together and they say well we we hate abortion and we we don't like poor people

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Having to beg so let's let's go help them when the doctrines of how to get to heaven are completely different you're either saved by grace or by grace alone and we have two different systems of salvation and who

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God is and So I don't think we can we can join hands because that's a direct contradiction of 2nd

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Corinthians chapter 6 And of course the opposite heresy is equally damning the heresy that many evangelicals today in the 21st century and even prior to the 21st century have adopted that all's you need to do to have assurance of your salvation is recite a prayer and Quote quote invite

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Jesus in your heart and then it's really Inconsequential how you live the rest of your life you could live

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Like the devil himself for decades and then still have the assurance of heaven that is also a damnable lie

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Yeah, absolutely. And what happens is as Modern evangelicalism has become more

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Romish more Roman Catholic They fall into the same errors and if you just study history a little bit and you'll see

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The Reformers and our great confessions as as reformed believers.

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They dealt with these things You know six o 'clock is biblical truth You either under do it at five o 'clock or you overdo it at seven o 'clock and it's just swinging back and forth between Licentiousness and no law or antinomianism and back and forth and even today modern evangelicals

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Really excellent scholars seemingly excellent scholars talking about final justification with our works

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Completely going off the deep end. We are justified fully and finally and freely based on the perfect work of Christ and our works don't play any part to our justification and Let me take a listener question

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We have Joe in Slovenia who says dear brother

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Chris, please ask Pastor Mike to advise us on how to address issues involving exacting discernment in our world of overemphasized subjective

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Emotionalism say that ten times fast world of overemphasized subjective emotionalism,

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I often get blank stares apathy and outright rejection of objective biblical truth

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When addressing false teaching in the church one recent example involved trying to express caution in using

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St. Valentine as a model for love. Oh, yeah great mess up my birthday, which is on Valentine's Day Joe In Light of the fact that almost nothing about the man can be historically verified.

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It's embellished myth contained in fabricated contained in fabricated wishfulness

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The response I got was I believe that he lived and did things said about him and that's enough for me

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What should be said and done about these types of things while remaining committed to one another and brotherly love?

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Thank you for helping us in this important area. I don't know if I have to repeat anything Pastor Mike, but I read quite a lot there

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Well, I think I think basically his he was just using that as an example his his basic thing is really when people get caught up in emotionalism and Sentimentalism and what like for instance, obviously this person has some kind of a tradition in their life

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Regarding st. Valentine, which is probably an unusual thing because now it's just a matter of roses and cards and chocolate and perhaps jewelry if you're rich enough, but and dinner in a romantic restaurant, but but The the whole thing that that very often in our day whether you are

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Roman Catholic or evangelical or otherwise Emotion and sentiment rules over fact over subjective truth over objective truth.

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I'm sorry Absolutely. Well when I get asked at a conference, what do I think the biggest problem in evangelicalism?

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Today would be and I always talk about subjective mysticism and of course this goes straight back to Sola scriptura and the

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Bible think about it this way In light of our conversation with Roman Catholics We would believe as Protestants that it is the

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Bible alone. Sola scriptura The Catholics believe in primus scriptura scripture is primary, but they have other sources ie

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Magisterium and traditions and the modern -day charismatic mystic subjective person

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Believes in primus scriptura. They love the Bible, but they've also got this

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Mysticism this subjective kind of experience Just like the Catholics have tradition and so they they they read

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Jesus calling they experience things The focus is back on personal approbation and you know, it feels good

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Maybe there's some sentimental kind of things but pietism on steroids pushes us to this subjective realization of things

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And and it is not helpful. We have truth outside of us I often read the

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Bible and say to myself What would this verse mean if I were dead? What would this verse mean if I never existed it has truth outside of me.

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It is true even if I've never existed and people just want to experience

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I mean started years ago with black could be didn't it with experiencing God and now

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With Jesus calling and so many other books. I actually addressed that That's white line number 11

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God speaking outside his revealed word God doesn't speak outside his word.

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We're thankful. He speaks, you know, that's Francis Schaefer 1972 he is there and he is not silent, but these secret messages and Whispering to us and still small voices

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We have to be careful that we don't go back to Rome and experience primus scriptura

47:32

And just out of curiosity, I forgive me if I missed this in you're describing your church

47:39

Joe in Slovenia has a another question on the Southern Baptist Convention Which I don't know if it even applies to your church

47:48

So, I don't know even think I don't even know if I should ask it is your congregation Southern Baptist Oh That's right, that's where the connection is it's a

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. All right. Well since we are talking about Deceptions in the church,

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I'm sure that That dr. Moeller and many of the faculty members at the

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Southern Baptist Seminary Southern Baptist Theological Seminary would agree with this critique

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So I might as well read this He says this is Joe in Slovenia again

48:26

Pastor Mike, what is the historical and theological context in which the majority of churches in the

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Southern Baptist Convention have adopted? Semi -pelagian soteriology why have those who claim to be people of the book adopted the white lie of man's ability to choose

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Christ before? He is regenerated in new birth by the Holy Spirit very good question because Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is actually a minority in the denomination of the

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Southern Baptist Convention because most of the faculty including its president Al Mohler are theologically reformed and the majority of the

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Southern Baptist Convention today are indeed Arminian and some white some might say semi -pelagian and which is

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Ira which is very ironic because the Southern Baptist Convention began in the 19th century exclusively as a thoroughly

49:22

Calvinistic denomination Well, that's correct. And when you think of Southern Baptist life, you might think of life away but the publishing arm

49:31

Broadman Holman and Broadman we get that from John brought us hence the word broad and then basal manly and the word man brought us

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Manly Broadman and you look back to what they would believe and some of the men were five -point

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Calvinists some were you know 4 .5 Pointers kind of thing but they they had a high view of God and a high view of God's work in salvation

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His work alone and then like everything else, you know Compromise leads to more compromise and you start off with the right doctrines and then all of a sudden

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Your son teaches something else whether that's Francis Schaeffer's son Frankie or Calvary Chapel, you know

50:17

Chuck Smith's son teaching something different. It's just the way thing, you know, Charles Fuller's son teaching something different And so you just have eventually

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Watered down watered down watered down and and I guess it could have turned into hyper Calvinism or in this particular case

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More of an Arminianism and you've got Al Mohler I think at 33 years old back in the early 90s elected as president into what on campus

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They had you know sexual ethics classes where they would show pornography There would be a gay not not weddings because it was illegal but ceremonies

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In the quad and other things and basically Mohler coming along saying This is what we teach these are the abstract principles two questions for every professor a do you believe these and B?

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Will you teach them and if you don't you're fired and he were really with held His ground and he had the trustees on board and really has changed everything around.

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It's kind of a modern -day Strange thing that happened because here I live in New England Harvard starts training men

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Calvinistically for ministry Look at Harvard now Yale starts Princeton starts. It just goes one after another after another yet in the province of God One of the few seminaries that starts well went south and then now

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Through dr. Moeller's leadership would be a thoroughly reformed Seminary and they then therefore would begin to affect the churches so now if you want to hire somebody you have to hire somebody from southern or southeastern and There are going to be men who have a high view of God's Word and it will eventually change the church

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Yes, and I guess at the root of his question why this is so well a lot of it has to do with the fact that every denomination nearly

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Has been in fact, we could probably say every denomination to some level has been affected by modernism and post -modernism and so on but You have some that have been more radically affected than others the

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Southern Baptist Convention even went through decades of abject liberalism that they thankfully have shed the vast majority of that that mindset, but the the the man -centeredness of Christendom is something that is a very

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Global and Unfortunately tragically nearly universal in the

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Christian Church and there are reformed congregations and fellowships and denominations that Are bulwarks for the truth some of which have developed in more recent history

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But we all have to fight against those tendencies, don't we? Well, it's so true.

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I think of Machen. He's at Princeton. He sees where Princeton is going And so he leaves he goes to Philadelphia to start

53:20

Westminster and I asked myself the question, you know Why does someone go liberal, you know, because I don't want to go liberal

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But what why did it happen smart men go liberal godly men go liberal? You know, do they are we know how do

53:35

I factor those things in and in my mind and I only have anecdotal evidence We have friends and relatives and I think it starts with us saying you know what?

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Exclusivity of Christ yet. I've got this dear friend or this daughter who's a wayward and we kind of Tweak our torque a little bit of the gospel

53:55

So maybe we get them in at least in our mind mentally so they're not damned forever And then once once that starts happening where I think you know

54:04

I need to reread things in light of the plain reading Listen, anybody could read the

54:09

Bible and say you know what? I'm from a different planet. I come here I read this book you either believe in Jesus or you're going to go to hell when you die it's very very clear, but now all of a sudden if we put a loved one in between the

54:23

Bible and us Then we start reading things Wrongly because you know, we do have compassion and we love them and we and I think

54:32

I think again Chris and Buzz Anecdotally, that's how I think liberalism starts It starts off with doctrines like hell and we have loved ones and we just have to create new categories

54:43

And whether it's you know Hell or sin or exclusivity

54:49

Then once once we turn away from the Bible We have to go to our break right now

54:55

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

55:01

don't go away. We will be right back after these messages Linbrook Baptist Church on 225

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Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

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forward slash iron sharpens today Hi, I'm pastor

01:03:35

Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

01:03:42

Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie 540 a .m.

01:03:50

Dot -com We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

01:03:58

Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

01:04:04

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back

01:04:10

This is Chris Arnsin of iron sharpens iron If you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with an hour

01:04:16

To go is pastor Mike Abendroth We are discussing his book evangelical white lies

01:04:21

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own Our email address is Chris Arnsin at gmail .com

01:04:28

Chris Arnsin at gmail .com. I just want to quickly announce some of the upcoming

01:04:34

Guests that we have on iron sharpens iron especially for the benefit of our new listeners in Lake City, Florida, Florida on 90 .1

01:04:45

FM grace life radio WPGT Because of the fact that they air our program in a pre -recorded version typically the following day

01:04:58

From the live program, so they're hearing the program a little late I want to give our Florida listeners some advance notice so that they could submit questions to me to via email

01:05:08

On the topics that we will be addressing This coming Monday God willing we have

01:05:14

Charlie Liebert of six -day creation .com is going to be on the program and he is going to be addressing any questions that might be

01:05:26

That a Christian might face from skeptics and unbelievers So he's basically going through some general apologetics issues on Monday including creationism

01:05:39

I'm sure Also on Tuesday February 21st and Mikkelhenny is going to be on the program for the first time to discuss her book

01:05:52

Gosnell the untold story of America's most prolific serial killer So you don't want to miss that one?

01:05:59

Then on Wednesday the 22nd of February we have Don Kistler returning to iron sharpens iron to discuss the

01:06:06

Puritans on Thursday the 21st for 23rd of February.

01:06:12

We have Jeremy Walker Returning to iron sharpens iron to address his book passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness and on Friday the 24th of February we have

01:06:26

Kevin Swanson an Orthodox Presbyterian Pastor and author and we have not determined his subject matter yet And we also have jumping to the 28th of February which is a

01:06:44

Tuesday. We have Larry Taunton on His book the faith of Christopher Hitchens.

01:06:49

He has written a book of that title that discusses or Addresses his friendship with the late atheist

01:06:59

Christopher Hitchens That developed during interviews that Larry had with him and debates and discussions as Larry Sought to evangelize

01:07:11

Christopher Hitchens who went to his grave tragically as an atheist but you may want to make note of those dates and email us questions regarding them at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:07:24

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and for the benefit of our listeners in Lake City, Florida, you can also hear this program live

01:07:32

Monday through Friday 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time on iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:07:39

iron sharpens iron radio calm Well, we are back with our discussion now

01:07:46

With our guest today pastor Mike Abendroth and by the way Joe in Slovenia Thank you very much for the questions and comments.

01:07:55

You have won a free copy of Evangelical white lies, thanks to our our guest today pastor

01:08:02

Mike Abendroth and You will be getting those God willing in the mail within a week or two from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com

01:08:12

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service comm a sponsor of iron sharpens iron that ships out all of our listeners

01:08:20

Their free books Bibles and other things they win by submitting questions to our guests and we want to I want to apologize

01:08:30

On behalf of iron sharpens iron for all of you who are been waiting

01:08:36

Sometimes three to four weeks for books just this since this past December This is not something that was routinely the case in the past prior to that But iron sharpens iron had a lot of activities that we were involved in including a pastor's luncheon a debate my trip to Atlanta, Georgia and subsequent three weeks with the flu

01:08:59

So many of you have not received your books yet, and I really do from the bottom of my heart Apologize for those of you who have won books

01:09:07

We are getting I assure you God willing that we are getting a

01:09:12

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services The list the complete list of all of our winners Who have submitted questions over the past a couple of months and you should be getting those books shortly so once again, thank you for your patience and Please forgive me for the tardiness

01:09:28

And thank you a Joe in Slovenia for giving us an American address to ship out your free copy of evangelical white lies

01:09:38

Let's go on to the the next white lie and I already know that we're gonna have to have you back to get to all of these white lights

01:09:47

But we have you just need more time We talk about time and You know,

01:09:58

I could get a lot more done if I just had a little more time I think it may be that old Rolling Stones song in the 60s time is on your side

01:10:06

How should a Christian Think about time we typically go to Ephesians 5 16

01:10:14

Redeeming the time because the days are evil And I found most people that I talked to take that verse to mean something like this

01:10:24

You know what if I could just have a little bit more time I need to pack everything into the time that I have

01:10:31

I have quality time against quantity time Don't waste a minute of your day time is money

01:10:39

You can be forgiven of every sin except wasting time that kind of thing, but when you read the verse the verse says

01:10:49

Something completely different. Here's what the ESV says Ephesians 5 16 Look carefully then how you walk not as unwise but as wise making the best use of the time

01:11:03

Because the days are evil So this is just simple Bible study. The verse says the time

01:11:08

Paul doesn't say you need to redeem time He says redeem the time

01:11:15

Here's what Paul's after. Well, I think we should be good stewards of our time and we should pack things into the day and You know think about our calendars.

01:11:25

I get all that but Ephesians 5 is different We have to be on alert to circumstances when they're put in our path by God the

01:11:35

Sovereign King He chooses a word for time Paul does in Ephesians 5 that means the right moment.

01:11:41

He's not talking about Tick -tock duration of time. He's not thinking in minutes hours days.

01:11:47

He's thinking about an opportunity that knocks on your door He's thinking about you know

01:11:53

You're going along through your day and something comes up and the opportunity arises

01:11:59

God is sovereignly put in your place and he says now Paul does redeem that particular time.

01:12:05

He doesn't say redeem time Redeemed that particular time and if you reflect on the life of Jesus How did

01:12:12

Jesus deal with quote -unquote interruptions a quick reading of Mark chapter 5 when you think about time?

01:12:20

Versus the time would be very helpful and Jesus has got a great crowd following him

01:12:26

They're thronging about him and the woman with the discharge of blood remember for 12 years.

01:12:33

She's been bleeding she's been to every physician good ones quack ones and She's heard a report about Jesus.

01:12:40

Hey, if I just touch his garments I'll be made well and she did and the flow of the blood was dried up and Jesus Deals with her even though he's on the way to go heal somebody else by the time he gets to the other person that Daughter's already dead.

01:12:56

So the idea here Chris and Buzz was Redeemed time doesn't mean let's think about every second

01:13:03

It's redeemed that time when something comes up in your life a providential act of God Obviously then you need to engage in that time and I think it helps you with interruptions because I hate to be interrupted

01:13:15

But I think you know what God's in charge of everything not just me Yeah, excellent

01:13:22

Let's go on to another white lie And I'm sure that this is a white lie.

01:13:27

That's that people who are not missionaries perpetuate Missionaries must suffer to stay humble

01:13:36

Well, I was in India and I was staying with the missionaries and they were godly people

01:13:43

Teaching the Bible training other men for gospel ministry doing exactly what we do here in Massachusetts They're doing there.

01:13:52

So that's why we wanted to support them and they asked me what I wanted for breakfast and you know

01:13:57

I just said whatever. I'm just there as a guest and they had a maid cook the breakfast breakfast

01:14:04

And I just thought I don't even get a maid. Wait a second I'm spending money on a missionary

01:14:11

Don't I want them to like live and beg and grovel and do all that kind of stuff and they've got somebody who cooked for them

01:14:23

And so I had to do kind of a gut check I love to hear about the missionaries to Hawaii I just love that one

01:14:32

Dear Lord, please send me any place except New Zealand And So I began to think about missions and I began to think about you know, what

01:14:43

Do I like to send my kids to the basketball league? Do I like to stop and get a large

01:14:48

Pete's coffee? Do I like certain things that I think maybe our splurges our treats or something like that?

01:14:55

But I get annoyed at other people when that happens. And so I just began to think about Jesus the missionary and how we would treat

01:15:05

Jesus the one who sent on a mission and what he did and how he

01:15:11

Wanted to do the the will of him who sent him and accomplish his work and the high calling of missions.

01:15:17

I Just began to think about it and I thought you know what? Jesus was a great missionary and now he sends these other missionaries out and When he sends those other missionaries out, how do we treat them?

01:15:29

I mean the same thing could apply to pastors, but I I don't want it to be self -serving But how do we treat the missionaries?

01:15:36

Do they get the leftover stuff? Did they get the best stuff? I mean, they are actually Jesus as missionaries.

01:15:42

So how should we treat them? Rightly when we think about stewardship, so that was the chapter and by the way

01:15:51

Please do not take offense if you are indeed a missionary to Hawaii Obviously Hawaii needs the gospel to which has actually come to think of an excellent title for a book for some reason but There was no offense intended.

01:16:07

I just for some reason it makes me chuckle whenever I hear about people who are Going on mission trips to Hawaii anyway

01:16:15

This is an interesting one that you have work is only a means to an end

01:16:21

Well, that's why I lied number five in the book and I was working through the issue about Monday mornings and going back to work

01:16:29

On Mondays, I think it was back to the old boomtown rats Bob Geldof song.

01:16:35

I don't like Mondays and you know if you think about it if you live an average life, you will experience about four thousand

01:16:43

Mondays in your life and And Why have those all wrecked?

01:16:50

I mean, can't we have good Mondays? Reminds me of the old farmer that said the hardest thing about milking cows is that they never stayed milk

01:17:00

You just have to go back every single week And so how could a man who has to leave for work or a mom?

01:17:08

Let's say she has to get up. I mean she gets up at work. She works at home, of course How can you think about work in a way that doesn't buy into the false

01:17:18

Bifurcation that says there's a difference between secular and sacred How can we think you know what?

01:17:25

Maybe I'm not a pastor, but I have a ministry from God here at work, and I'm going to work for God's glory and I Could even think back to the

01:17:36

Lord Jesus who worked with his hands before he went into public ministry Mark 6 is not this the carpenter the son of Mary and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon Hi, I wonder what did

01:17:50

Jesus do when he was working for his father a sinful father at that Joseph And how can we think through?

01:17:58

glorifying God at work today are even the regular changing diapers and You know doing dishes for the glory of God to try to make us think biblically

01:18:09

Through that particular area We have Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina Who says hi

01:18:19

Chris great choice and Mike Ebendroth as a guest I have been deeply grieved over the powerless gospel

01:18:26

I'm hearing in today's visible church and reading in most So -called

01:18:32

Christian books. I heard a pastor a while ago informing the congregation of a Bible study that was

01:18:38

Startling now that was starting at the associate pastor's home He made the below statement and I wondered if you and Mike could share your thoughts on what he said

01:18:50

This is an ideal opportunity to extend an invitation to neighbors and friends as we reach out to people in a

01:19:00

Non -threatening way if you could address that Good sure.

01:19:06

Well, you know, there's nothing wrong Tony obviously with telling your neighbors. We're going to have a

01:19:12

Kind of a intro to Christianity Bible study and we'd love to have you come over We're gonna have some pizza and then we're going to talk about what the

01:19:20

Bible says about sin and salvation and Jesus I mean if that's what you mean by non -threatening because people are afraid to walk into a church

01:19:28

I mean, I guess I understand that I'm not against it I think it'd be wrong if you said come over for pizza and then you kind of slip in the

01:19:37

Bible study So we believe in the sovereignty of God and Acts 1348 is true as many as were appointed to eternal life

01:19:46

Believed so we are just preaching to everyone and God will have the unregenerate

01:19:52

Elect believe we don't have to do any gimmicks Paul says in 1st Corinthians, so we preached so they believe and so we don't want to try to do anything in a man -centered fashion that would betray our confidence in God's power and his sovereignty, but there is this kind of Feel now where we want to make it relevant and we want to make it

01:20:14

Non -threatening and when I see churches that say, you know on the website come as you are dress casual

01:20:20

I'm just thinking, you know, everybody welcome. I don't really need to say that. I have other things to promote

01:20:26

And I think the other thing Chris that I think of often is we're too afraid to say no as Christians I mean if that's all we do is say no, no, no, and we never say yes

01:20:36

Then of course, it's problematic But even with Paul when he writes Galatians, that's the no book

01:20:43

He says even in Greek Paul Apostle and then his next word is not and then the rest of the book is not you're

01:20:52

Not going to hear this from man. It's from God. You're not going to add works to the gospel because it's accursed

01:20:59

You're not going to do this Peter or else and so I think you know If we're only going to say no we would betray the gospel

01:21:07

But if we say no to negative things and then yes to the gospel and yes to Christ Jesus I don't have anything else to offer my neighbors

01:21:16

My next -door neighbor. I'm looking at his house right now we were working on his yard one day and I asked him about his soul and Eternal life and he said when

01:21:26

I'm ready to have my soul saved Mike I'll come and ask you I said, you know what fair enough.

01:21:33

I'm not the soul saver, but I know who does Fair enough. And so I just want to be just talking like a man to a neighbor and then after that if he doesn't want

01:21:42

To talk about it. I don't have to do anything. I can just rest in God's sovereign hand and I think that Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina may be also thinking about the fact that The Well, there is a truth that we need not add our own

01:22:03

Offensiveness on top of the gospel, which is automatically in offense when truly and rightly proclaimed that will offend people

01:22:12

We don't need to add our own offensiveness, but there are people who try to remove the sting of the gospel, which

01:22:20

Makes it null and void very often Because it really there's no urgency to it and it is even devoid of meaning in other words if you don't have the bad news

01:22:33

Proclaimed to you. You're not going to appreciate what the good news is and I can remember

01:22:40

I know that there will be some people that get upset with me for Criticizing one of their great heroes of the faith, but I can remember how disappointed

01:22:49

I was At the The National Cathedral in Washington DC when

01:22:56

I was watching on television that ecumenical Meeting that they had right after 9 -eleven after the terrorist attacks on the

01:23:06

World Trade Center and upon the Pentagon building back in 2001

01:23:14

Billy Graham Got up in front of an audience that included all kinds of religions

01:23:21

Roman Catholics Protestants evangelicals Muslims Hindus Buddhists Sikhs Wicca people all kinds of people were in that that meeting and Billy Graham Got up to give some words of encouragement and comfort and so on But then he did so he he nullified

01:23:47

I think the most important part of his speech

01:23:53

He said before he gave the gospel He said this is for the

01:24:00

Christians in the audience That one little sentence. This is for the

01:24:07

Christians in the audience. It made everyone else Totally put down their guard and relaxed and not at all concerned about what he said

01:24:17

They found no offense in his giving the gospel and he got a standing ovation

01:24:23

From people of all religions when he was finished They would not have applauded him if he told them that they also that everyone in that room

01:24:33

Needed to repent and believe upon Christ in order to have any kind of peace

01:24:40

And confidence of eternal life and my left base here by saying this no, that's exactly right, you know

01:24:45

Billy Graham would have said that this is this only applies to Christians only you have peace with God if you're not a

01:24:52

Christian today You have a personal relationship with Jesus and he is your enemy and he created you and one day you'll stand before him thankfully, he's a very gracious God and He offers

01:25:05

Clemency to all those who kiss the Sun by faith in him trusting in his finished work confirmed by the resurrection

01:25:12

So if you would have said that that would have been fine it's just like when Robbie Zacharias goes to Utah and talks to the

01:25:19

Mormons and Says basically the same thing. In other words, he should have said

01:25:24

I know what you say about Jesus. You've got the wrong Jesus I know what you say about sin.

01:25:30

You've got the wrong definition of sin. I know what you say about the Atonement You've got the wrong definition and you knew who

01:25:36

I was when you asked me to come and I'm a minister of the gospel Therefore I must tell you You were on the broad road to destruction and you know, that's just like Paul Paul says in 1st

01:25:47

Corinthians chapter 1 I know what you want me to tell you Jews. You want a sign

01:25:52

Greeks? You want wisdom, but I have a message for you. It's the Messiah that's crucified

01:25:59

He is we are to preach Christ the crucified one So I think we just have to say to people you're you're asking me a minister of the gospel to come and speak to you

01:26:09

So I'm going to be speaking to you about the gospel. They say no you can't come fine

01:26:15

But what do we do? We say well We'll just kind of water things down because maybe they'll ask us back next time or I don't want to offend

01:26:23

Unnecessarily. I mean we can be kind and we can be Sweet to people but my message is going to be the gospel.

01:26:31

I have to tell people I I'm a messenger It's I'm sent I I don't make this up on my own 1st

01:26:38

Corinthians 4 is true We are to be faithful stewards and that is we have a different message

01:26:44

It's someone else's message and our job is to discharge it So when we get up and talk to people and friends and relatives, we just have to remember, you know

01:26:53

I can deliver it in a kind way But I need to tell them things like Spurgeon would say

01:26:59

Spurgeon would say most people think about their fingernails More than they do about eternal life, and I'm here to just remind you that life is short.

01:27:08

Life is a vapor We pass away quickly and one day you'll stand and meet

01:27:14

God and it's a terrifying thing Just fall into the hands of a living God You need a mediator you need an advocate and there's only one

01:27:22

The God -man and when Job stands there and he says to God if only there was an umpire

01:27:29

If only there was an arbitrator to put one hand on me and one hand on you

01:27:34

That's who we need and that's exactly who Jesus is who is God and man so we can arbitrate between God and man

01:27:42

Amen and I could remember how disappointed I was when so many

01:27:47

Christians contacted me And said wasn't it wonderful what Billy Graham said at the National Cathedral and I said

01:27:55

Yeah, a part of what he said was wonderful. The problem is he diffused it of all of its power

01:28:00

By saying it only applied to the Christians who are in the room the people who are already Christians Are the only ones that needed to hear the gospel that doesn't even make any sense

01:28:11

So therefore that's why they gave him a standing ovation You would have heard booze or you would have seen people by the hundreds exiting that Cathedral if he was telling everyone in that room that they needed to take heed of the gospel and what a tragic opportunity lost in my opinion and Perhaps when we come back.

01:28:33

I want to elaborate on this very thing Don't you think it's sometimes dangerous when we communicate

01:28:41

What we believe to our neighbors? And I have to be careful about what I what

01:28:46

I say here because I don't necessarily mean that it's always wrong to say I Believe this and I believe that but sometimes

01:28:54

When we say I believe this and we recite something from the text of Scripture It's almost as if we are saying

01:29:05

As a member of the specific religion that I am a part of I believe this Rather than the truth is from God's Word This and then you cite something from the scripture like repentance is necessary for salvation or what have you?

01:29:21

Joel Osteen I think is the Champion at telling people what he personally believes

01:29:28

Which which just as Billy Graham's comments? Removes the power from any truth that he might utter because it's as if he is saying you don't have to believe this but I believe as a

01:29:40

Christian that that God really prefers that that People live a heterosexual and monogamous life.

01:29:47

That's what I believe You know, that's that's something that's unique and quirky about the Christian faith, but that's what

01:29:52

I believe, you know rather than Teaching people and proclaiming people people what they must do and believe because God is the one

01:30:01

That has taught it and commands and if you could pick up after the break On what I just said, I would appreciate it and don't go away.

01:30:08

We are going to our final break So we will return momentarily, God willing and We'll be back after these messages with pastor

01:30:18

Mike a bin Roth Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

01:30:26

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie

01:30:36

540 a .m. Dot -com We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

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forward slash iron sharpens today Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said

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01:34:03

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man?

01:34:10

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

01:34:16

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

01:34:24

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

01:34:29

Than how men view these things? That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the

01:34:35

Apostles priority It must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and Vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love

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01:35:23

Welcome back This is Chris Arnzen If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Mike Ebenroth during the last 25 minutes of the program

01:35:30

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:35:36

Please give us your first name at least Your city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA before we go on to the next

01:35:43

White lie pastor Mike if you could address what I said of how sometimes

01:35:50

Maybe even an unconscious thing that we try to soften the blow of the gospel by making certain

01:35:59

Undebatable Primary Facts and truths of the scriptures something that is our personal opinion that when we are talking

01:36:08

With those outside of the Christian faith rather than just boldly proclaiming them as truths that need to be believed

01:36:15

Sure. I remember I was teaching a Bible study in North Hollywood probably in the early 90s and The man that I was mentoring

01:36:23

Edwin said to me afterwards now Mike, you know Thanks for all your study and everything and I appreciate what you do

01:36:30

But pretty much when you teach the Bible tonight, you just kept saying I think I think this

01:36:35

I think that I just yeah Bible says And that kind of stung but I but I got his point what

01:36:42

I think is, you know, for the most part irrelevant and I believe this and I believe that kind of as a

01:36:49

Either nomenclature we have in Christian life or we're trying to soften the blow

01:36:55

My encouragement to the listeners is regularly read the Bible Read Ezekiel and Isaiah the

01:37:02

Gospels Acts and you'll see how people preach and it's a much different way I just turned to act 17

01:37:09

Paul said early on in the chapter this Jesus whom I proclaim to you is

01:37:16

The Christ now he said I was proclaiming but Jesus is the Christ didn't say well I believe it or in my opinion

01:37:22

It is a proclamation and it goes back to Paul when he said in 2nd

01:37:28

Timothy chapter 4 to the pastor to the elders preach the word you herald the word this is a message of good news and and I think it even shows up Chris when

01:37:40

Pastors are preaching and they're always saying we well we need to be more content and we need to be more evangelistic

01:37:47

I understand that in the book of Hebrews a book of exhortations of an exhortation It uses we but lots of times we need that second -person imperative

01:37:57

You in light of who you are in Christ and your union in Christ. You need to be content You need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

01:38:04

You need to proclaim the gospel and so we do it even when we're preaching because I think we're trying to soften the blow

01:38:11

I know throughout the study of the week I am getting convicted by God the

01:38:16

Spirit and I know my contentment level is low Lord. Please forgive me I want to be more content.

01:38:21

I'm glad Jesus was perfect intent I rest in him now when I step in the pulpit, I don't need to say

01:38:27

Well, we all struggle with contentment and we need to be more content. No, I've heard a message from God It's in God's Word and now

01:38:35

I proclaim on his behalf you need to be more content, so I think this shows up everywhere and To me it's almost like this kind of relationalism gone haywire where we're afraid to just make the bold proclamation

01:38:50

And by the way, Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina, you have also won evangelical white lies by Pastor Mike Eben drop

01:38:58

Here is one that's bound to wind up in a lawsuit against iron sharpens iron the focus is on the family

01:39:05

This is a white lie of Christianity So if you could tell us about that Sure.

01:39:12

Well, I'm sure even the people that focus on the family would agree with me if I were to say

01:39:18

The focus of the family should be serving Jesus Christ I'm just using that slogan as a jumping -off point

01:39:26

If the focus is on the family if it centers on the family I think the family is going to be in trouble because the family was never designed by God and Ordained by him to be the end.

01:39:39

We love our wives our husbands and we love our children We're thankful and you can think of Psalm 128 and other passages, but the focus on the family

01:39:48

I mean, why did God give me a wife? Well, I can serve the Lord Jesus better with her than I could have without her.

01:39:55

Why did he give me? four children the answers the same So I think all the talk about the family if we end with that talk it would be incorrect if we say the family's place is a means to the end and that is

01:40:13

If you think of Westminster, you know catechism question number one We can glorify

01:40:18

God and enjoy him together even as a family So it was almost one of those provocative little statements for a chapter so I could get people not to sue me

01:40:27

But to read the chapter Yes And there are many churches that again going right along with Tony from Rock Hill, South Carolina's question that perhaps want to remove the sting of the gospel by focusing their their preaching teaching and the identity of their church on helping people be better husbands wives and parents but Having said that those are crucial things like for instance one of my favorite authors

01:41:00

Who's also one of my favorite guests that I've got to get back on this program is Ted trip who wrote a shepherding a child's heart

01:41:07

That's the book. He's most famous for a book that he wrote with his wife

01:41:12

Margaret or Margie Is another excellent book and in fact, there is a whole publishing ministry that That he has started shepherds press that's been in activity for a number of years these are

01:41:28

Very important elements of the Christian life to learn And to teach these things, correct

01:41:35

Absolutely, and you know only a fool would say well Let's not talk about anything from the

01:41:41

Bible regarding family because we're only theologians And we don't want to do that.

01:41:46

But when you do read for instance Colossians are let's say Ephesians The focus is on Not even the marriage while there's talk about submission to husbands.

01:41:58

There's talk about Husbands loving your wives. He instantly goes and takes it away from moralism or Mormonism for that regard and he says as Christ loved the church and you can imagine that some people might think well

01:42:13

God Saw marriage and said oh, yeah, that's a good way to describe my love. It's the exact opposite in eternity past We have

01:42:21

Christ slain before the foundation of the world language in first Peter. God had an idea about his

01:42:27

Son loving the bride and therefore he creates marriage in time to reflect that and of course

01:42:33

Paul says this is profound Mystery I'm saying that it refers to Christ in the church And I think what you're referring to earlier

01:42:40

Chris Lots of churches want just pragmatism give me imperatives I had a hard week talk about work talk about finances talk about marriage talk about raising children and then repeat

01:42:52

When if you don't understand union with Christ, for instance in Ephesians 1 through 3, you can't get you can't understand

01:42:59

You can't live out that truth found in marriage. You have no power. You have no resources

01:43:05

So I just think you know, it's a good way to Bolster the argument for a lectio continuum preaching that is verse by verse

01:43:15

Phrase after phrase and then we see God's plan for marriage and it's a wonderful plan I mean to have a wife my wife and I went to New York City the last few days for Valentine's Day Enjoyed one another a month ago.

01:43:27

We went down to Sagamore to see Teddy Roosevelt's house together The sweet common grace found

01:43:34

At marriage, but there are bigger pictures and more important things To see marriage in light of the gospel not marriage as a terminal point

01:43:44

And you have a chapter bodily exercise does not Profit that's an interesting.

01:43:51

I wouldn't think that there would be Christians teaching that in fact, there are churches that may overemphasize

01:43:59

Health and things like that. And in fact, I can clearly remember I Had a friendship years ago with a

01:44:06

Seventh -day Adventist pastor, and he invited me to his congregation to hear a message by a

01:44:13

Physician who was a Seventh -day Adventist who was also a minister and he preached a message on how there were

01:44:21

Two men having lunch together and the one who had a tuna salad and a coke was the one who was the sinner as opposed to the one who had a vegetable salad and glass of water

01:44:37

That was the The message that I walked out of there with but if you could tell us about bodily exercise does not profit

01:44:45

Well, you know that would have been a better introduction to that chapter than I had Well Paul writes in the pastoral epistle 1st

01:44:56

Timothy. He says while bodily training is of some value Bodliness is of value in every way as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come

01:45:08

That's 1st Timothy 4 8 and I think I run in the same circles. I live in a town called

01:45:13

Lancaster, Massachusetts And they have the Seventh -day Adventist regional headquarters here.

01:45:20

And so it's always about what you eat or what you don't eat and There are fundamentalists talking about, you know food and exercise and everything else

01:45:29

I ride a bicycle a lot and work out a lot What about that? So I tried to address it in The book and you can always find false teachers when they begin to tell you what you can or can't eat

01:45:43

And of course, I'm not talking about health and you know, if your doctor puts you on something But when you say, you know what you can't eat this or you can't eat that Those people are false teachers.

01:45:55

That's a doctrine of demons I talk about in the book because it's right there in 1st Timothy. These things are irreverent

01:46:02

Silly myths Paul calls them Paul calls them and when you begin to say don't eat this and don't eat that Or it affects your spirituality.

01:46:11

It is a it is a blight on the work of Christ. It is an attack on justification

01:46:17

God declares us righteous by the work of another and what I eat or don't eat drink or don't drink

01:46:25

Does not affect it at all in no way shape or form And so then when people come and say it does no wonder

01:46:31

Paul says in 1st Timothy, that's a doctrine of demons Yeah Yeah, that's a that's a pretty heavy indictment, but it is true because it

01:46:42

Just becomes Pharisees and really it's adding the laws of men on to The Scriptures.

01:46:48

Well, what happens Chris as you get these Old Testament diets everywhere you go You see the new book out there

01:46:54

It says follow this Old Testament diet and and here have some Ezekiel for four bread

01:47:00

I mean just next time you're at the store and you see Ezekiel for bread I'm sure it tastes good but the real

01:47:07

Ezekiel for bread You might want to read Ezekiel for to see what they cooked it over and you might not really want it as bad as you

01:47:14

Think you do And but you did say that as the as the chapter heading that bodily exercise does not

01:47:23

Profit was a white lie. So obviously there's people on the other Extreme that you're talking about the people that dismiss any

01:47:33

Importance to bodily exercise Absolutely. And so I think you know as I go to pastors conferences

01:47:41

And just see men and maybe they need to work out more or whatever. I mean, that's up to them

01:47:47

I just think if you want to exercise We don't need fundamentalist or legalist or pietist saying something about well

01:47:55

You know what? If you just prayed more and didn't exercise things would be better off because I think that's the extreme

01:48:01

Opposite that's the opposite extreme to saying well what you you know, you shouldn't eat this or you can't eat that The context is very very clear and just think about how generous

01:48:12

God is and how great he is he has given us a body to have all kinds of tastes and touches and senses and And we cannot fall into Neoplatonic dualism and the body's bad and the spirits good

01:48:31

We just need to run from that because it all it just it just makes Christ work Secondary.

01:48:37

I love to work out with weights. I love you know long bike rides I remember

01:48:42

Dwight Pentecost when he sees somebody jogging he said instead of calling that jogging

01:48:47

We should probably turn that jiggling But Paul what does

01:48:57

Paul do Paul even uses like race analogies in 1st Corinthians 9 he talks about gymnastics kind of you know language and running and single -mindedness the

01:49:11

Olympic game racers would have and so I just think when we we begin to if we if we worship bodily exercise

01:49:17

That would be wrong. But if we if we say that it's no good and it's very pagan. I think that's just as wrong now you've filled me with guilt and depression because I used to be an avid weightlifter and now my home gym is a

01:49:33

Really a glorified coat hanger. So I've got a I've got a start Killing more

01:49:41

Baptists and alcohol is killing That is that's pretty funny

01:49:51

The next one I'm assuming you must be addressing tree huggers and environmentalists going wild but you have green is

01:50:00

God's favorite color as a White light, although it could be the health and wealth and prosperity gospel.

01:50:08

They're green meaning money, but I don't know what which is it Oh, that's exactly right well, it's the first one and I was reading a while ago about a church in Plano, Texas and They advertise their church.

01:50:21

I mean the way we advertise our churches, you know, we Him we proclaim

01:50:27

Colossians 128 and here. How do you get people in? associate pastor

01:50:32

Reverend Alexandra in Plano, Texas said quote everyone wants to know what the waterless

01:50:39

Urinals are like And so you get people in I mean that is church growth at its finest special eco -friendly adhesives and sealants and everything else and making the book of Revelation when

01:50:55

John drives a tree of life some kind of healing For now and and we just have to remember we don't want to destroy the world with pollutants

01:51:05

But this is a temporary world. This isn't heaven and One day Buzz you had a well, yes,

01:51:14

I'm kind of curious about number 10 The weather is a thing.

01:51:21

Yeah, that's a strange title Well, you can enlighten me a little bit on this

01:51:36

Well Here's here's the concept if you sit and look at the weather channel and you say to yourself

01:51:43

Oh, it's raining. It's snowing. It's Leading you might think weather's a thing.

01:51:49

But when you look at Scripture regularly God sent the rain God caused it to hail

01:51:55

God created the mildew It's God actively doing these things and the second you understand it reminds me of the old

01:52:02

AW pink book on the sovereignty of God when you understand that God is sovereign over weather Then you say well, you know what?

01:52:09

I don't really like the rain today But God is sending it and therefore I submit and God knows best and it's good for everyone else.

01:52:16

And so God Sends the weather it's not whether it's its own thing.

01:52:21

That's what I meant by that God is Lord over the weather now one thing that you have As a white lie, that is actually surprising to me and I'll explain why you have as a white lie

01:52:33

And of course, it could be used that way and I'm sure you know that because you wrote a chapter on it But the white lie being

01:52:39

God fits in a box because the most frequent thing I hear in this day and age from Christians that want to justify many

01:52:49

Extra biblical and unbiblical even anti big biblical things that they do whether in their own lives or in the

01:52:58

Very corporate worship of the church as they will say you're trying to put God in a box

01:53:04

God's outside of the box. You can't put God in a box. You can't force God into a box You can't squeeze them into a box, but you're saying that God fits in a box as a white lie explain that Yeah, it's just the it's just the opposite way of saying what you just said when people try to limit

01:53:19

God You know, I guess the only limiting factor of God would be his nature and his word, but to just think about the incomprehensibility of God that's what

01:53:28

I was really after God is Incomprehensible he he cannot be fully grasped.

01:53:35

You might say he can't be domesticated or tamed David said great is the Lord and greatly to be praised his greatness.

01:53:43

His greatness rather is unsearchable, I mean people today are

01:53:48

Bombarded with the eminence of God with an a he's close to us He he's a friend that sticks closer to a brother and I say amen look at the incarnation

01:53:58

But there's an aspect of God his transcendence. He's different. He's holy. He's beyond And and that's where I think we we we need to also look, you know,

01:54:09

God can't be managed God can't be ordered around Tozer calls us the godness of God and when

01:54:18

Job said These are the outskirts of his ways And and how can we understand this

01:54:24

God and you read Ezekiel chapter 1? About describing God like and has the appearance we just can't mentally

01:54:31

Grasp him we can just understand scripture. That's all But I was after that Transcendence of God he cannot be grasped

01:54:41

Completely by a human finite creature who's also sinful We've got

01:54:46

Christopher in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who actually may have revealed that he is a prophet because he says

01:54:55

What is your guest's opinion of those who believe in extra biblical Revelation touching upon what you just said about those who decry those trying to fit

01:55:06

God in a box well, it's very interesting because your chapter is God still speaks outside of his revealed word as a white lie

01:55:16

Yeah, well, you know, here's the thing to be satisfied with what God has given us

01:55:21

That's what we have to do when it comes to you know revelation from God special revelation That is his word to be satisfied.

01:55:28

And when you read the scriptures, you just think oh, you know, this is this is who God is This is what he does and to be just satisfied and take a rest.

01:55:36

It shows me people have a very Discontented heart when they want to have more

01:55:41

I want something more. I want something Personal instead of being satisfied with scripture. I also think it's laziness

01:55:48

I know it's not the only issue when it comes to extra biblical stuff, but it's a lot easier to feel

01:55:54

God you know moving your gizzard and then it is to study context and Ancient writings and so we have to guard against her own laziness and say well

01:56:05

God I want you to speak just to me. I think Miriam tried that it didn't work out so well for her

01:56:10

By the way, I was joking Christopher. I don't believe you're a modern -day prophet. That was just a Joke but but obviously there is truth

01:56:21

That Romans 1 teaches that general revelation is Taught by God through his creation, but we need the specific teachings of inerrant scripture

01:56:33

As we were even saying before about you can live the gospel being a white lie There is there is specific

01:56:43

Revealed revelation that we need that is only confined in the scriptures Absolutely.

01:56:48

And so God says through creation He's powerful and wise, but how do we know he can redeem sinners only by God's Word?

01:56:58

I did say to my son once when he was about 15 I said, you know I think I might be more mystical and God speaks outside of his word because I believe that Testosterone speaks to men and it says go win a wife

01:57:10

So I maybe maybe I believe in some extra biblical revelation there with testosterone Christopher you've also won a free copy of evangelical white lies.

01:57:21

So please get us your full mailing address So we can have CV BBS comm

01:57:27

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Send that out to you as soon as possible We have

01:57:33

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who wants to know if your guest believes

01:57:39

That Providence can be a way that God speaks to us outside of his revealed word

01:57:47

Quickly the answer is It is bad to read Providence because sometimes we don't quite understand it

01:57:55

You can see Whitfield and Edwards who had some problems with that and later they recanted specifically

01:58:01

Whitfield and so the best way to look at Providence is backwards And so you look back in time and you see how

01:58:07

God has ordered all these things But if you're trying to read Providence in the future, for instance

01:58:13

Phil Johnson's got a good article on his website about that. That would be very dangerous reading

01:58:18

Providence in the future The only way we do it is look back and I say oh, that's how I met my wife That's who that person came to preach the gospel to me and then

01:58:25

I got saved So I would be very careful of reading future events thinking that it's providential

01:58:32

Yes, well obviously though if you might have somebody who's saying I've been praying for so long that The young lady that sits in the pew behind me at church is going to be my wife

01:58:45

Even though she just got married. I still believe that that's that woman's gonna be my wife

01:58:50

Well, obviously Providence closed the door on that one for you pal. So give up on it

01:58:57

Absolutely, and sometimes you know that open door closed door thing God give me an open door sometimes open doors mean don't go through you fool

01:59:03

You know, this is a test. Do not do it Sometimes closed doors mean keep knocking in this particular case.

01:59:10

It would be why am I trying to do this? I'm to walk by faith and not by sight my good father in heaven

01:59:16

Who's redeemed me says walk by faith And so I don't need every little answer my college student son doesn't need for me to run his life

01:59:24

I give him general direction and then he makes his own decisions and how much greater does God give us his word and then we're

01:59:30

To make some decisions as we walk by faith. We're saved by faith alone. And now we walk by faith, too

01:59:35

Well, I know that your website is BBC Church org BBC Church org

01:59:42

I thank you so much for being our guest today pastor Mike I look forward to you coming back to iron sharpens iron as our guest and I want everybody to always remember for the rest