Jihadi Attack in London

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:13

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

00:24

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the

00:32

Phoenix reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

00:38

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

00:44

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -four -one And now with today's topic here is

00:51

James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line a jumbo edition today

00:56

Mainly so that we can have sufficient time to cover the topics appropriately without having to rush and maybe

01:06

Even open the phone lines toward the end of the program if we have time to do so and if you would like to Become involved so much has happened since Tuesday.

01:16

It's amazing how much has gone on the past two days that would require our taking some time to consider these things from a biblical and Christian worldview specifically we have the

01:32

Amazing events in London we had The same day the homily by the

01:40

Pope on the subject of atheists and everyone is redeemed and we likewise have the issue of tornado and God's sovereignty and sin and Young women who should not be pretending to be theologians pretending to be theologians such as Rachel held

02:01

Evans All at the same time and Then we add to that the re -raising of an issue from last

02:12

July in regards to Tyler McNabb and His swimming the

02:18

Tiber River So lots of things to talk about on the program today.

02:23

Hopefully be able to do so in a meaningful fashion. That will be of assistance to you in our

02:31

Listening audience. I have a I hope this plays because sometimes it gets the replay thing.

02:38

It doesn't want to replay it again. I Want you to listen? To this gentleman

02:46

He is Michael Word that where'd it go?

02:53

I have far too many There he is it's too late too many browser windows up Let's see, where's the name here

03:07

Michael adeba la ho adeba la ho Michael adeba la ho is the man who was seen yesterday in Video from London with his arms covered in blood

03:25

Holding a meat cleaver and a knife Having just dismembered a

03:31

British soldier Decapitated a British soldier after running into him with a car that obviously probably took him out and then they did their deed right there on the sidewalk on the street actually in London and I want you to listen to what this

03:49

British -born citizen Of Nigerian descent who was born as a

03:57

Christian well Quote unquote whatever that's supposed to mean you don't get born as a

04:04

Christian, but that's what the that's what the Media is saying Listen to what he says because I did not hear the media

04:14

Play what he actually said They could have it's not that long It wasn't a matter of time.

04:21

It was a matter of editing and they didn't want you to hear everything that he had to say and Here's here's what he actually said hopefully

04:38

We must fight them as they fight us and I I Apologize that women have to witness this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same

04:54

So there he was and what most people just didn't understand at the beginning

05:02

Was the recording starts when he's saying sir at Ataba sir at Ataba.

05:07

What's that? That's sir a nine Sir an eye of the Quran, it's the last of the surahs in most traditional lists to be revealed and it's the one that radicals love the most because it talks about jihad and it talks about fighting the infidels wherever they are and Algo, just a posted in channel a little while ago a article showing a picture of Anjum Chowdhury from 2007

05:38

He's using a Bullhorn at some protest outside of a police station and who's standing directly behind him looking very unhappy but Michael Adebola ho

05:54

He had become involved with the Anjum Chowdhury radical Islamic movement

05:59

I can guarantee you that he heard all about sir a nine and I'm sure he probably heard surah 8 ayah number 12 as well

06:12

Remember when your Lord inspired to the angels I am with you so strengthen those who have believed I will cast hair into the hearts of those who disbelieved

06:19

So strike them upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip So there you have surah 8 ayah 12 and I'm sure he heard

06:31

Anjum Chowdhury talking about those things and the people in those particular groups and movements

06:39

Talking about those things and so he and another Took it into their own hands to act these things out yesterday on a street in London now

06:51

How are we supposed to think about this? It's shocking to see a man staying there with hands covered in blood we

06:59

We don't see that very often especially when you realize it's the the blood of a human being and They just knelt over that body and was were dismembering it

07:10

Sawing the head off in public Now the amazing thing to me is people were watching One I think 48 year old woman did try to help if she was a little bit late, obviously

07:22

But there were even police there, but police wouldn't approach them because they were not armed I'm not gonna get into that but oh my goodness goodness

07:32

Thank you leftists for making us a a victim culture, but anyway um

07:41

When you see that man when you see michael standing there my gut feeling is given how few

07:51

Sound christians there are in the uk. There are some great christians there, but let's face it The real christian church is a very very very small minority in the united kingdom

08:00

The vast majority of the church of england and things like that is deader than a doornail and has been for a long long time

08:06

Okay, long long time. I don't have any reason to believe this man has ever really known the gospel

08:16

If he did so it was only in a cultural fashion not with real knowledge of What the gospel is?

08:24

And there he stands He has been given a False religious system

08:33

It's a religious system with the holy god a law and hellfire, but no mediator And there he stands and I just want to ask each one of you in the audience

08:47

What do you feel when you see him standing there? I'll be honest with you

08:54

The first thought across my mind is anger The first thought across my mind is

09:01

He needs to be punished The first thought across my mind is why was no one able to help that victim

09:11

Before these people so savagely Ended his life but I had to Catch myself out

09:24

As I thought about this yesterday because what we should see when we see that man

09:35

What we should think about when we see michael adobe lajo standing there

09:44

Is we should see the apostle paul Standing with garments

09:51

On his hands Garments he was holding for his fellow religionists who out of tradition and blind ignorance

10:06

Had just brutally murdered A christian man named stephen stoning is a uh

10:16

Stoning is about as bad It it it it's more of a community method of execution

10:23

Because no one can necessarily say who threw the exact stone that caused death. That's why the community does stoning, but It's bloody.

10:32

I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's it's done really Horribly in islamic lands, they actually dig a pit and put you in it up to your waist and and that way you can't really move and And they do it that way and it's just it's it's bloody and it's horrible

10:50

And paul had just witnessed that paul had just witnessed that And I would imagine he

10:59

There probably wasn't a a day that went by in the rest of his life. He did not think about that He certainly spoke about it in his epistles.

11:08

He talked about being a persecutor of the church and the least in the kingdom of god and all these things because He probably thought about Probably thought about someday he was going to meet stephen

11:22

And what was that encounter going to be like? Well, of course in a glorified state. It'll be one of perfect unity and love but When you when you look at that man

11:35

As christians we do not have the luxury We do not have the luxury to hate

11:48

We must think about what his situation is and realize that every single one of us

11:55

You know that song um There's there's one line in it that I don't like it's theologically but it's a beautiful song and At one point it talks about It's talking about the cross and it talks about I hear my own voice crying out amongst the mockers

12:13

I would have been one of those Standing there. I would have been one of those holding the garments or maybe throwing the stones.

12:23

The reality is That we prove ourselves to be

12:32

Very self -righteous And to not really understand the extent Of the grace that had to be extended to us to save us.

12:40

We look at him and go. Oh, it's just us If we're not for the grace of god you

12:47

Likewise would be capable of Such barbarism. No, I never could know you and you don't know your own heart

12:56

You don't know your own heart Yes, you you could have and that's the first thing to think about Yes There needs to be law.

13:09

There needs to be order What he did was horrific but as a christian

13:21

Your first thought cannot be for retribution I would suggest that we must

13:30

Pray for this man and pray that god will deliver him from the deception Of the false religion to which he is committed now

13:45

I started thinking I mean a lot of people very angry by doing this, but I really think this is absolutely necessary incidents like this

14:01

Are then taken by other evil men as a

14:08

License to commit more evil. That's the nature of human evil and I have seen pictures online of Young british thugs wearing ski masks

14:22

Getting ready to go. Uh mess up some muslims as if somehow they have the righteous duty

14:34

And Right to commit another wrong

14:41

To make right a further wrong a first wrong, you know what I mean? And that disgusts me as well

14:51

And I I started asking I I wonder What the muslims have been saying about this

14:57

As I got up this morning, I mean We're far enough behind england that we sort of catch up on the end of their day as we get ours started and So I popped over to the uh muslim debate initiative

15:16

And discovered that uh era Had posted a uh video and i'm going to play their video and interact with it a little bit here uh at the beginning is uh

15:30

Hamza tzortzis and then adnan rashid And adnan got a haircut. I noticed since our debate

15:37

He was looking he was He had a lot of hair going there for a while, but all of a sudden maybe it's getting warm or something.

15:44

I don't know but uh, he's got himself a haircut going here, but um Here is a brief muslim response to what happened uh

15:54

There in in london To proceed

16:02

Assalamu alaikum I want to comment on what happened today in london in woolwich where two men

16:10

Killed a man with machetes. I want to condemn this act. It's an act of criminality

16:16

I also want everybody to know very clearly And decisively that these men do not represent any community or any religion

16:26

Um This is a statement regarding the acts of criminality which took place today in woolwich two men who

16:35

Conducted these acts of criminality are not forming our community They do not represent us in any shape or form and I want to highlight

16:45

That the far right is going to take full advantage of this situation and they're going to spread a lot of hatred about islam and muslims

16:52

This is something we have to be careful about We condemn all acts of criminality whether they take place in this country or in syria or in japan

17:01

So we have to be clear on this that these two men do not represent us in any shape or form

17:06

Thank you very much. Assalamu alaikum Okay now I have been trying and I guess this is the best time

17:20

I guess in a situation like this would at least help us to force force ourselves to think through this

17:26

I have been trying To get the two sides christians and muslims talking in the most meaningful fashion possible

17:35

It's one of the reasons that shabir ali and I are writing the book that we are we're focusing upon what really matters but the reality is we have people on both of our sides who just Don't really want to get with the program

17:50

Let me start off addressing Let me just address adnan. I don't know hamza Hamza was going to be on unbelievable with us a few when

17:58

I was over the last time and he didn't make it maybe next time He'll be able to and we'll be able to meet but Seems like an interesting fellow.

18:05

He was the one that I responded to last week the brief comment he made about The quran is self -interpreting and and protestants becoming roman catholic because of that which we'll be addressing more a little later on Let me let me just address adnan.

18:18

So they know adnan. Um Here's what we need from you. I I hear what you're saying

18:24

And it does concern me that there are people who will take this kind of incident as a

18:34

Signal to engage in violence against the muslim community against people who would never do

18:41

What michael adel belaho did? um I I fully understand why your community is concerned about this and should be

18:49

I Get that that's two wrongs. Do not make a right And I hear you.

18:55

I hear you You need to hear What we need to hear from you adnan

19:05

First of all When you mention japan or syria, we're not sure what you're referring to because what we are hearing is that in syria?

19:16

The primarily muslim opposition to asad Is murdering christians right and left why?

19:26

Why is that why why is the middle east becoming the most unfriendly place on the planet to christians,

19:32

I mean christians are fleeing lands that they've lived in for millennia and it's 99 due to muslim oppression

19:46

And my concern adnan is and i've expressed this to you, you know this How do we know who a muslim is

19:57

Now, by the way, let me just I I forgot to mention this. I I mentioned it briefly, but let me throw it in here

20:04

Think about this adnan All the media are suppressing

20:12

Well, okay the vast majority of the media every clip that i've heard If I hadn't gone looking for it,

20:18

I would have known it But the vast majority of the media is suppressing the reality that that man stood there talking about in arabic

20:25

Specific citations from the quran with blood on his hands now, why are they doing that? You might say well they're doing that so they'll start a race war or something.

20:32

I don't know. Okay I'm, not really not sure that's why they're doing it because I can guarantee you one thing If that was a non -muslim standing there

20:42

Quoting bible verses having just killed somebody they'd play him quoting the bible versus I assure you

20:51

I assure you they would the double standard there is amazing

20:58

But What we need to hear adnan and i've expressed this to you is

21:05

You said those men are not a part of our community We need better information as to how you're defining that We need to know that you all are getting rid of these folks that you're marking these folks out

21:20

That you are giving we need you to explain to us the theological basis upon which you can say

21:27

That that person who has said la ilaha illallah. Well muhammadan rasulallah is not a muslim

21:33

We need to hear that when when people on our side do things like this

21:39

We're very clear in explaining why that is not a christian

21:44

Activity that person isn't a believer Can your mosques?

21:54

engage in ecclesiastical Excommunication If not, why not and if you are we need to hear it more clearly because we're not hearing it from our side.

22:05

It just We don't see the distinctions that we need to see At least those of us who actually want to see them and understand them

22:15

I recognize there's a bunch of people All over the place that don't care They don't care at all.

22:21

I know I'm, not one of them I'm talking to you as a person who does care. I want to make the proper distinctions.

22:28

How can we do so? How can we do so? talk to us about Well, i'll give you an example and i've used this example.

22:38

I'm trying to be fair. I am trying to bend over backwards to be Not objective because i'm not objective i'm a christian apologist, okay uh

22:50

But as a christian apologist, I must be truthful And I found it fascinating and troubling

22:57

That a few weeks ago after the bombings at the boston marathon word came out

23:06

Concerning Faiz muhammad down in sydney And so I contacted

23:12

A muslim friend of mine in sydney and you all know who that was. Anyways I said hey

23:18

Who is this guy? And has your community said anything about him? And very quickly

23:24

I got an email back. Yeah, we sure have We sure have here's a link to You know one of our leaders

23:32

Talking about this man, and it didn't take me very long to find Uh a section where faiz muhammad was actually preaching

23:39

That islam was not being preached in any of the mosques in sydney Now how many of you i'm talking to you christians now?

23:50

How many of you christians heard that how many of you heard anything in the mainstream media about the fact that this guy

23:56

Was running around saying that islam is not being preached in any of the mosques in sydney and that the mosques in sydney themselves

24:02

Had precluded him from preaching within them. I hadn't heard it.

24:08

I had to go looking to the muslim community To find that information Now put yourself

24:17

In the muslims shoes right now Do it i'm telling you you got

24:24

We are christians. We have to be truthful. We have to be consistent put yourself in their shoes

24:31

Some nutcase From a baptist church and believe me i've met a lot of nutcases in baptist churches

24:39

Some nutcase who has some Past connection to a big baptist church in texas.

24:46

Okay. I'm just making this up on i'm not referring to anybody specifically some nutcase

24:54

Goes out and does some horrific thing Kills an abortion doctor. I don't know.

24:59

I don't know what the parallel would be there really isn't a parallel because one of the problems here is the

25:06

Intimate necessary connection of politics and religion within sharia within islam. That's one of the real problems and we don't have that uh outside of some odd forms of theonomy uh within within The fabric of of christianity, so it's really hard to make a direct parallel But somebody comes that goes out does something horrific

25:32

And all of a sudden you Because you happen to be a member of a baptist church in texas are now painted with the same broad brush as this individual even though The reality is the guy had been kicked out of the church

25:48

Excommunicated you can find videos online of him saying the gospel is not being preached in any baptist church in texas

25:54

But you're still being held accountable For what that guy did Would you be frustrated?

26:04

Would you think it's just grossly unfair? Yeah, you would You would I sure would so None of that offers a solution to the situation and i'm saying to adnan i'm saying to hamza i'm saying to Abdullah i'm saying to abdullah al -andalusi.

26:26

Abdullah kunda All of the men that I know in the islamic community and have had debates with You guys need to Give us

26:41

And I know you said oh, it's we do it all the time. It's yeah, but we don't hear

26:48

We don't hear clearly The distinctions that you are making

26:57

We need to hear it more clearly the world needs to hear it more clearly And I hope and pray

27:08

That none of you Will be the victims of violence because of what this man has done

27:16

You know that my prayer for all of you is that you would come to know the lord. Jesus christ That he would be gracious to you.

27:23

You know, that's my prayer. I'm always honest about that And so I do not want to see you come to harm

27:31

In any way shape or form And I fully understand your concern for your community that that's what could happen because of what this man has done but you see

27:44

I've said this over and over again. I'm gonna say it again My deepest concern is that the differences between you folks

27:55

The dividing lines between the anjum chowderies and those who eschew this kind of violence

28:05

Those dividing lines from my perspective seem really thin in this sense

28:14

And that is the sources From which you must draw

28:20

To make your case against their interpretation of surah 8 12 and surah 9 29 and 9 5 and all the all the other

28:30

References that that anjum chowdering his followers can quote with blood on their hands

28:38

The sources from which you must draw to provide the exegetical context

28:44

To not interpret those texts the way they do comes from a mass of documents and Oral traditions that I just don't think are consistent enough to actually answer the question

29:00

And that to me is the great issue in islam How Are you going to stop these people?

29:14

Who believe that violence rather than the changing of the heart

29:21

Is the means for the promotion of islam given

29:29

That they can quote hadith Just like you can And I know they can't

29:38

I know they can't What is it within islam that allows you?

29:45

To be victorious In this internal strife I know you want to be

29:53

I appreciate the fact that you want to be but looking at the sources themselves.

30:01

Can you be that's the question That's the question. Wow start off heavy

30:08

Start off heavy. Sorry Had to be done as soon as I saw him standing there, man.

30:14

I had to search my own heart There's a there's a natural just How could anyone and I don't want to be trite in any way shape or form?

30:28

I really don't But there is a reason why

30:40

I say theology matters And as you see that man standing there calmly

30:48

Rationally Not even threatening the person with the camera But with blood all over his hands

30:56

He honestly believed he had just done god's duty He honestly believed he had just done something god wanted him to do

31:07

It also happened to be a political statement That's what happens when you combine the two together and if that doesn't tell you about part of the

31:22

Tragedy of the collapse of the gospel in the united kingdom. Well, it should

31:30

It should Says he was 15 or 16 when he got into studying islam and became a muslim

31:41

What was he hearing what was he taught before that don't know But it certainly wasn't enough to keep him from becoming what he became

31:51

And what a tragedy that is So adnan abdullah

31:59

Sammy all you guys. I wish you well.

32:05

I hope you do not encounter any Violence as a result of all this

32:12

But help us out Put up some videos

32:18

Not just condemning but explaining why giving the arguments we'd like to hear them

32:25

You say oh, we've got all that internally. Yeah. Well, may I suggest you're not doing a really really good job explaining to the rest of us

32:34

Why that is? We need to we need to hear it. We need to see it. So I hope you'll do that and I hope that you

32:43

Hear me when I say that my prayer is for your safety and for You to understand that no true christian is going to wish upon you harm

32:57

But any true christian will pray that you will come to know the true and living jesus christ That's why

33:02

I debate that's why i've debated each one of you and will continue to do so lord giving strength

33:09

In the future that's our way of saying inshallah Yeah Now shifting gears

33:17

This is this is a big gear shift I almost feel like we should do a break there or something, but i'll i'll skip it and just pretend that Just we had a break.

33:27

Welcome back to the dividing line. How's that? It didn't really work too well Uh sort of makes you feel a little better but Big news yesterday very big news

33:40

We uh I I could tell early on that this

33:47

Next pontificate is going to be really interesting Really really interesting.

33:53

This is not cardinal ratzinger at the helm In rome any longer. No Uh, it isn't

34:00

I do not think That cardinal ratzinger would have spoken The way that francis the first did he just likes to go

34:10

He just doesn't like to follow the teleprompter. Shall we say if you know what I mean? He's his own guy he lives in his own place you gotta you gotta give him credit for all that stuff but the reality is

34:21

Um, there's good evidence. This guy is not nearly as conservative Not nearly as historical in his view of things

34:30

And I think the world's going to see once again that what we've been saying all along is true and that is that Rome may say oh we are the church of two thousand years

34:40

But the reality is the only way to accept that the only way to believe that Is to buy into the idea

34:48

Is to buy into the idea That whatever this guy says goes

34:54

And if the he croaks and the next guy comes along or retires, I guess now is another possibility

35:00

Um, and the other guy says something different well now that's it and you just just go with the flow

35:05

Don't worry about this this objective truth thing this thing this you know, same truth for generation generation thing

35:12

It's just a personality cult now and you follow this guy and whatever he says goes now

35:23

I had said during john paul ii's reign That it seemed like once each year he'd throw out a bone to the liberals

35:34

Say something sort of off the wall on the left And then The next year he'd throw a bone to the conservatives

35:44

Now I I gotta admit it would be really hard to keep Something as diverse As the roman catholic church going going one direction.

35:52

It's because despite their wanting to think of it as one big old ship It's actually like a flotilla

35:59

Okay, and and he's running around trying to keep this flotilla Going the same direction it ain't easy to do

36:07

It isn't easy I understand that as soon as I started hearing this guy talking and I started seeing some some references to some of the people he was close to down there in south america and all and I'm, like, hmm

36:23

This could be interesting Well, yeah, it got interesting got interesting yesterday Now I really wish this would format correctly.

36:31

I hate these websites. This is the vatican website radiovaticana .va and for some

36:39

Crazy reason i'm gonna see if I can drag. Oh good. I can drag it onto another screen. It's wider And I can now read the whole thing good

36:47

I am technologically advanced So he started talking about atheists yesterday and Let me just quote a few of the things he said

37:00

The lord Created us in his image and likeness and we are the image of the lord and he does good

37:06

And all of us have this commandment at heart do good and do not do evil all of us but father

37:12

This is not catholic. He cannot do good Yes, he can he must Not can must because he has this commandment within him instead this closing off that imagines that those outside everyone cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some

37:29

People throughout history have conceived of killing in the name of god That we can kill the name of god and that simply is blasphemy to say that you can kill any of god is blasphemy now, okay

37:41

I don't know that he's i'm, not sure what that means he Understands was taking place in the history of israel and the conquering of the promised land and stuff

37:50

But that's not really what he was addressing. I will I will agree That The command of god we're all creating the image of god and therefore if we are

38:05

In his image we are to do good We can't do it But that's because of our fallen nature

38:13

It sounds like he's saying that we can in some way Now, I don't know if he in the back of his mind has some kind of prevenient grace concept going on I don't know.

38:25

He didn't say Maybe he'll write a book on it Maybe he won't

38:31

I don't know This is one of the problems in having an allegedly infallible leader is that you have to interpret the allegedly infallible leaders infallible teachings

38:40

And you must do so infallibly, but that would make you infallible and since you're not infallible You can't do that. Well, you get the point but um

38:49

Yes, I would I would agree that man has the commandment within him to Honor god Give him thanks, but according to romans chapter one.

38:56

That's the very thing that man refuses to do But he goes on The lord has redeemed all of us all of us repeated twice with the blood of christ all of us not just catholics everyone father the atheists even the atheists everyone

39:26

And this blood makes us children of god of the first class Now let me stop just there for a moment, but no no, no, let me finish reading it then we'll take it apart

39:34

I'm, sorry. I apologize I'll probably forget what I was going to say, but that's okay We are created children in the likeness of god and the blood of christ has redeemed us all

39:43

And we all have a duty to do good and this commandment for everyone to do good I think is a beautiful path towards peace

39:49

If we each doing our own part if we do good to others if we meet they're doing good and we go slowly gently

39:56

Little by little we will make that culture of encounter. We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good

40:04

But I don't believe father. I am an atheist but do good We will meet one another there now

40:15

Let me say There really is not anything overly shocking about this

40:22

As far as roman catholicism is concerned what

40:27

I mean by that is I've Said many many times before And i'm not the only one that said it.

40:35

I'll bet you bobs and genesis said this that the vast majority of roman catholic prelates leaders

40:43

The the priesthood etc. Etc Uh Are either universalists or minimally inclusivists

40:53

If you don't know what inclusivist is universalist course person, please everyone's gonna be saved Inclusivist that basically believe that any religious expression will ultimately find its object in god and therefore

41:03

Believing in buddha can also be considered by god believing jesus same same thing has the same object so I mean

41:18

You you hear this from priests all the time But you didn't hear from john paul ii.

41:24

You didn't hear from from benedict. You didn't hear it from ratzinger now obviously

41:35

For many roman catholics, they're going I I thought that I received the body and blood of jesus in the eucharist and if you're an atheist and you don't take the eucharist then how can you be redeemed because And and I understand your struggle

41:54

I feel for you it's about time you stop talking about this 2000 year old church thing and realize that It don't work that way

42:04

It never did It's it's been a myth all along all this unity infallible leadership blah blah stuff um

42:15

Just just historically it's naive And and i'm sorry for you to have to discover it this way, but that is the reality

42:25

I can guarantee you innocent The third or all the popes of the time the reformation

42:34

I I would I would you know, the pope that came up with the papal syllabus of airs. I can guarantee you

42:39

They did not talk this way They did not talk this way They did not talk about how even atheists

42:49

Have been redeemed by the blood of christ and that they are children of god of the first class. They didn't talk like that And for good reason

43:02

You know the pope had defined the fact many many many years ago In unum sanctum that uh well it's absolutely necessary for the salvation of Human beings they'd be subject to the roman pontiff and there have been all sorts of wild and crazy interpretations placed upon that over the years since then especially in the modern era, but If you're honest, you know what he meant by that at the time he spoke it now

43:30

I realized that being concerned about what words meant in their original context is a little bit naive today

43:35

It's not very not very popular. Not very common I I get that but I still happen to think that it's extremely relevant, especially as um as an author myself um

43:48

I'm, pretty well convinced that I am the final infallible interpreter of my own works I just think that's sort of how it works

43:57

And we we pretty much know what the pope meant by that back then and if you want to play around play games and say He meant something else.

44:02

Well, you can you can come up with that Theology matters again folks

44:09

I have been one of Many people but we are in the small minority we don't have the biggest voices we don't have the biggest ministries, but You can go back to the first book

44:21

I wrote Called the fatal flaw wrote it in 1989 some of you listening right now

44:34

Like uh milwaukee truth I don't think you were around in 1989.

44:40

Maybe you were I don't know I think he might have been in diapers then or something like that.

44:46

I know he's Listening because he just tweeted that he's listening Some of you may not have been around back then but in 1989,

44:55

I wrote a book called the fatal flaw And I started writing it came out in 90 and in that book

45:09

I made the argument that The sacrifice of the mass cannot be a representation of the sacrifice of jesus christ because it does not accomplish

45:20

That which the bible says the sacrifice of christ accomplishes And I very honestly admitted

45:29

That this is an argument that cannot be made by non -reformed protestants If you believe in a universal atonement

45:38

That does not actually save anyone but makes men savable you Are not on the same page with me in my response to roman catholicism

45:47

You're left with other forms of argumentation that I believe Are inherently self -contradictory and in essence you end up with synergists arguing with synergists.

45:55

You're all on the same page Anyways, you may not like that, but that's the fact That's the fact and rome has for A long time in many of her statements many of her statements spoken in this type of language spoken about the idea that god has a

46:16

Universal salvific will in the sense that he really really really there's there's no No, no divine decree

46:24

He's just doing his best save everybody And that the death of christ is intended to actually accomplish that but it doesn't it fails

46:32

But it's intended for that Intended so This is nothing new

46:42

But the past popes have been significantly more Nuanced and careful.

46:50

I don't think francis first cares about careful I don't think he cares about careful.

46:57

I think right now he is Absolutely frightening

47:04

The old line leadership in the vatican to death Just like he doesn't like to go out with his security and he doesn't like to stay in the papal uh where the pope's supposed to be and All the rest that kind of stuff

47:21

Yeah, the pope mobile and all that stuff I think they're far more frightened by what he might say next

47:30

Because he just seems to sort of go with the flow and when you're infallible

47:37

Going with the flow is scary Especially when you end up contradicting the last infallible guy who happens to still be alive it sort of tends

47:49

You know To give the lie to this this infallibility stuff in toto

47:56

So what do you think? Uh benedict, uh said when he heard, uh, what? what

48:01

Francis said that's really easy. Remember what? Where's benedict from? He's he's he's german

48:07

He said That's exactly what he's saying guarantee you that He did he slapped his forehead and said

48:17

He couldn't believe it that's what he did and uh We've been pointing out these problems for a long time, but you know most of most of my first Work in roman catholicism was during the years of john paul's second

48:34

So you had you had the consistency of leadership at the top there? Uh now that you start

48:40

You know Having multiple popes rolling through now we're starting to go

48:45

Well, he used to say that and now he's saying this and now he's saying that and I think this guy is going to be a treasure trove of really interesting statements

48:57

That is going to be keeping the the boys over catholic answers up late at night. I I think that the the absolutely best um

49:06

Uh efforts that they can put out are going to be have to be expended in explaining well

49:15

I know we used to say this and the pope just said this and it's uh,

49:21

I think you know what we ought to do We ought to take up a collection and send a case of advil over to catholic answers

49:30

My question for them is so so so who's back do you have today? Right?

49:36

Right? Yeah Who's back with which pope you're gonna defend today? Yeah, it's gonna it's coming.

49:41

It's coming folks. It's coming Ah, yes, yes.

49:46

Yes. Well speaking speaking of uh Of rome Some of you will remember back in uh, july of 2012

49:57

Which was less than a year ago that's uh I did

50:03

Uh, oh, yeah, milwaukee truth was uh, 1990. Yep. See Vicky ann wants some of that advil before we send it over to catholic answers

50:14

My doctor says that's not really good for me. But anyways, um Back in july of 2012

50:20

I did a uh a recorded video from the dividing line Probably should have recorded what we did today and put on youtube.

50:29

That was dumb that we didn't but sorry anyway And I addressed the issue with tyler mcnabb tyler mcnabb's young fellow

50:40

Spoke at the same uh street preacher conference in new york a couple years ago. He uh actually put up a uh,

50:46

Graphic of that. I think yesterday or last evening just to prove that I used to speak at a conference james white and uh

50:57

Lo and behold he was uh someone contacted me and Like so many young guys who view themselves as very bright.

51:07

He is a bright young man um, they find rome to be very attractive for many reasons if if Your deepest heartfelt commitments

51:23

Are not based upon the fact that you see the holiness of god your absolute need and the perfection of christ your savior

51:29

There is no false religion that you could not fall into if you're

51:37

Actually playing at this christianity game in god's providence eventually you're gonna

51:44

If you don't love the truth, you will be caused to love a lie. That is a biblical promise There's no question about that.

51:52

And so I mentioned some things On the air I'm, very straightforward when it comes to apostasy

52:01

I'm, very straightforward and I believe that I have sound biblical basis for that. I see a difference

52:09

In how the apostles treat people who've never known the truth Who've been deceived about the truth or something like that over against people who had once stood in the place

52:22

Of proclamation within the congregation and now turn their back upon what they had taught

52:29

I see A substantial difference In how the apostles deal with them.

52:34

They name them by name They warn people about them Beware of alexander the coppersmith

52:41

Beware and only that they um

52:47

They anathematized Yeah, galatians one Don't forget do not forget for a second folks that when paul wrote that epistle to the churches of galatia

52:57

He knew he knew As well as he knew the sun was going to rise in the morning

53:03

That the very men that he was calling pseudo delphoi false brethren would be sitting in the

53:11

Congregation when his letter was written he knew it And he was very straightforward

53:22

I have mentioned That when a certain presbyterian minister came to meet with me I answered his questions.

53:30

He says I didn't but I did But I also kept turning the topic back to one simple thing, sir

53:39

You are Playing with apostasy you are talking about denying the gospel you

53:47

Cannot believe that this is the gospel of jesus christ, you know, the apostles did not believe these things

53:57

And I asked him Has anyone you've talked to but as passionate with you in warning you about this as I have and he said no

54:06

So this ain't the first time That i've dealt with something like this And in fact come now think of it meeting with jason stellman was after No was just was before was before the tyler mcnabb thing because that was may

54:27

And as you know, you may have heard As a result of my addressing him. He contacted me and said look, can we talk on the phone?

54:33

So I called him up We talked on the phone Again, I was straightforward

54:40

What are you doing? What about these issues But I did not and I will not

54:47

It's not my role Chase this man down. I'm not going to call him the next day and say have you read this?

54:54

I'm not calling the next day and follow up with that. That is not my role. That is not my calling But I can guarantee it's the calling of certain other people

55:03

Because my understanding is that certain other people some of whom have Hidden from challenges to debate me for decades now

55:12

We're all over him pretty quick Oh, we got to get this guy they would I just remember the line the line compass land and sea to make a cross line and so last week

55:28

I think it was right as I got to uh I think it was the it was the 18th. So right as I got to uh, montana

55:36

No, that would have been saturday. So while I was up in montana I uh got an email from tyler mcnabb and he had

55:49

Converted to roman catholicism in december. There was no further contact with me There rarely is there wasn't hey, what about this?

55:57

I've been told this that that's not good type of thing It's going to happen and then I don't care. Uh, that's not my that's not my role um

56:04

I've provided, you know, I I sent jason stellman a bunch of debates Asked him to listen to him gave him resources.

56:11

He didn't so, you know, that's just this is how it works Anyway yesterday morning

56:18

I get up I didn't mention this in the blog. There's a blog article that has all this i'm mentioning to you.

56:23

I've posted our emails Which is pretty unusual, but he's what brought it up and I said, okay, you want to accuse me of being a prideful mean -spirited arrogant nasty person

56:36

Based upon our emails. Let's post them. Let's do it. Let's put it out there And his only response was a capital k

56:45

Okay And so I put up in a blog article today a case study in apostasy

56:50

I gave the background When I woke up yesterday morning, I started looking my email had

56:57

Remember remember I last time I told you about descriptive grace It's just really nasty dude.

57:02

Well, man, I had no idea how nasty he was I mean we Went back and forth the day before and it just started getting vile.

57:11

I mean we're talking profanity I mean this guy's clearly not a christian claims to be but clearly isn't a christian And just that morning.

57:17

I just got an email from the guy Uh yesterday morning basically saying that you know, because you believe god creates all evil

57:24

That must mean you're a presbyterian, which means you must be gay So I guess all presbyterians are gay and I know some presbyterians with many children

57:31

So i'm not really sure how that works, but in the twisted world cultic world this man's thinking that's just that's just how it works

57:38

And so there you go so I was trying to clear out the email box or at least get it smaller

57:47

I hate when it gets to triple digits and I Finally decided, you know,

57:54

I I had not responded. There's no knee -jerk reaction to tyler I wanted to give it a few days think about it

58:04

And So I wrote back to him and you can read all this stuff Fundamentally, this is what

58:11

I want to talk about. I Would not give

58:20

To tyler what he wanted what new converts want

58:28

Is they want credibility as converts they want a mechanism to affirm them

58:35

In their new position now, I don't Understand this idea of well i've come i've converted now, so I guess i'll start debating

58:43

Uh, you know, why is it that rome has this problem? Um, you know, why why isn't their their long -term folks the ones that do the debate and they tell these folks just Cool their jets until they can get their feet planted.

58:57

You know, I I guess there's no no in there. No, that's not in their their rule book or something.

59:03

I don't know but if you read Our exchange what you discover is is what we encounter all the time.

59:13

I say tyler you've you've apostatized You have thrown the gospel on the bus. The wrath of god is upon you.

59:19

You are so mean james James, I know so much more about philosophy than you do and you're just trying to avoid having a debate with me on philosophy and i'm tyler um, you can puff up your chest all you want and talk about all the philosophy, you know, if you want to but um, what i'm telling telling to you is is

59:40

There's there's more important things than you're wanting to Debate an obtuse topic that's um, and you know,

59:47

I don't even know how you would take in the negative uh negative side of the of the thesis and it certainly wouldn't be beneficial to people in the audience, but But the reality is son you're using this to suppress the reality that you

01:00:02

Now believe in indulgences And all the rest of these things obviously

01:00:07

I just didn't come up in emails. I would have pointed out that The most Fundamental foundational to the topic he suggested about knowing the truth of catholic teachings

01:00:17

Would be the actual claims of the roman catholic church in regards to the papacy and things like that But reading the emails they go back and forth is just an example of what happens in our culture today where you try to bring

01:00:34

Biblical authority to bear And it's oh you're so nasty. Oh, you're terrible

01:00:42

You're horrible now last week

01:00:48

For two and a half hours. I sat in front of a room full of christians in montana and I dialogued with a gentleman who claims to be a gay christian

01:01:01

And I did so with respect If I was anything like what tyler mcnab?

01:01:09

describes me to be I I could not have done what I did there.

01:01:15

He doesn't know me. I mean we met so what? Doesn't mean I know him but you see there's a complete difference between talking with justin lee and trying to use that as a as a means of of helping people to understand that there are people in the church the same sex attraction and What do you do about that?

01:01:33

And what's the role of repentance and all the rest of that stuff? and dealing with someone who has stood behind the sacred desk

01:01:43

Has made commitments Has said I believe this and now says

01:01:50

I deny that And evidently what he wants is to you to go.

01:01:58

Well, you know hey, tyler, you're a smart guy and I I know we have differences of opinion now, but hey, let's get together and just let's have some dialogue and let's just no

01:02:11

No If you want to debate then we'll debate something that actually benefits somebody

01:02:22

Because i'm not debating for you. I'm not debating. I don't debate anybody tyler

01:02:28

To make them feel good about themselves to give them a little feather in their cap, which is what you're looking for the debates we do we do

01:02:40

To benefit the people of god and anyone in whose life the spirit of god is working

01:02:50

And so if you want to debate the infallibility of the pope the marion dogmas

01:02:58

Purgatory indulgences the priesthood Is the pope an altar christus?

01:03:04

a holy father the vicar of christ Those are directly relevant but none of that's going to change the fact that you are an apostate you have

01:03:26

Thrown the gospel under the bus You no longer believe that you are righteous before god by the imputed righteousness of jesus christ

01:03:38

And those are matters of eternal import for yourself

01:03:43

For those who used to know you And i'm not going to just sweep those things in the rug and say, oh, okay.

01:03:51

You're on the other side now No, it's not going to happen so Long article mainly because it's made up of emails

01:04:03

But you will notice I stayed absolutely consistent in what

01:04:08

I wrote to him and oh, that's Oh, you're just oh you just you have such a

01:04:15

You have just such a terrible Uh how you treat others who disagree with you is alarming

01:04:22

Hmm Okay Are you alarmed by how I treated justin lee?

01:04:27

Are you alarmed by how I treat shabir ali? Well those rhyme I didn't even realize that justin lee shabir ali they rhyme but You alarmed by that You can't see the difference

01:04:39

Between how I treat those guys and I treat you and Evidently, you must think that paul was just Way over the top, right?

01:04:49

I mean if you're consistent But you're not going to be consistent. Are you? No double standards inconsistency is the uh is the sign of a failed argument and by the way tyler, that's a philosophically accurate statement as well

01:05:07

I can even pronounce the word philosophically very good. All right.

01:05:13

Well switching gears once again Big switch big switch

01:05:22

Not even going to try to put the clutch in Because there is a similar attitude issue here

01:05:29

When it comes to the authority of scripture to decide very important things And I refer of course to the blog article

01:05:39

By rachel held evans the abusive theology of deserved tragedy Now if you've read this thing

01:05:48

Where she goes after john piper and i'm gonna have to go after john piper, too Not because of what he tweeted.

01:05:55

I wouldn't have tweeted that Not that particular point in time simply because I know what the result would have been but once you tweet it then don't untweet it

01:06:04

That makes it more of a tweet than yet an untweeted tweet is more tweeted than a tweet Think that went through for a second because there is there is truth

01:06:15

In fact, I think I could repeat it I can't believe you said that out loud An untweeted tweet is more of a tweet than a tweet

01:06:25

It's true I honestly think that Micah just said how tweet

01:06:34

How tweet it is yes indeed My point obviously is all right

01:06:42

John piper tweeted your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house and it fell upon them and they are dead job 119

01:06:49

Okay, I don't think I would have tweeted that immediately after a category 5.

01:06:55

Um, tornado. All right But I know why he did And I agree with why he did

01:07:04

And my problem is rachel held evans response is not a on it's not sure it's a Hers is a complete overthrow of the biblical teaching of god's sovereignty the nature of sin and i'm really starting to wonder

01:07:16

If this woman has any idea whatsoever What the message of the scriptures are concerning the holiness of god and the sinfulness of man

01:07:28

I mean she gives vent to some Pretty amazing stuff in this blog article And so I would say to john piper if you're going to tweet it then leave it there

01:07:41

And then say look if you don't like this what i'm saying is death due to this kind of event

01:07:52

Is nothing new And until we recognize what it means and why it exists

01:08:01

We will live in the wrong universe Because the universe we live in Is god's universe we're trying to make it a universe of random chance

01:08:16

No such universe exists All john piper was trying to do was to say

01:08:22

When things like this happen, jesus taught us to repent That's what he was trying to say

01:08:28

Didn't go about it real well But that's what he was trying to say and he was right and the problem is rachel held evans

01:08:34

Was so offended by the way, he went about to say it that she ends up saying he's wrong He's wrong

01:08:47

She says because this is what john piper does whenever there is a tornado or earthquake or shooting or war While the world is still in shock while we struggle to find the words to convey our grief and compassion to weep with those

01:08:56

Who weep he jumps in with an explanation. It's always the same bad things happen Because god is angry

01:09:04

This is god's just judgment on undeserving sinful people repent. We brought this on ourselves Partial truth

01:09:13

Partial truth The reality is bad things happen To bad people

01:09:21

Because god is just and therefore his wrath Is revealed

01:09:28

From heaven against all the unrighteousness of men. That's romans 1. I don't think Rachel held evans likes romans 1 and I don't get the feeling anymore.

01:09:38

She's under the authority of romans 1 She might want to try to pretend she is I don't get that feeling anymore. I really don't This is god's judgment

01:09:49

On undeserving sinful people undeserving of what? You mean this is god's judgment on deserving

01:09:58

Sinful people miss evans mrs. Evans, whatever

01:10:05

Sometimes keep wondering where her husband is. Um should be controlling her keyboard

01:10:10

I guess but Were there any non -sinful people? On earth that day

01:10:18

Just questioning that Because i'm really asking you.

01:10:23

Do you really? Do you really understand what being sinful means in regards to the wrath of god?

01:10:29

It sounds like you've got the idea that well, we're all sinners But god's just so loving he just sort of overlooks that Maybe you agree with the pope.

01:10:39

We've all been redeemed. And so this sin thing isn't an issue anymore Anyways repent we brought this on ourselves well

01:10:51

Clearly I don't think she believes the theoretical statement that god could destroy any person at any point in time

01:10:57

She clearly doesn't believe that unless you are Have been freed from the wrath of god that god's wrath abides over you and could break upon you at any point in time

01:11:05

Doesn't seem to be part of the paradigm, I guess Goes on to say that's because piper and many in the fundamentalist neo -reformed movement.

01:11:13

I love all these two fundamentalist neo -reformed movement Are working off a perversion?

01:11:20

Of the doctrine of total depravity Okay Uh that not only teaches that human beings are depraved that is our human humanity is marred by sin.

01:11:32

Well, that's Not really what total depravity is. Um mrs. Evans Part of it, but it's certainly not.

01:11:40

Um in its entirety But that this depravity renders the world's men women and children into Valueless objects of god small g god's wrath

01:11:56

Now you think that small g is purposeless, I don't think so I think it's there for a purpose

01:12:02

I really do valueless Objects of god's wrath.

01:12:09

Oh, where did you get the word valueless? I I where'd that come from?

01:12:18

Where's that in the in the doctrine of total depravity? Not sure where Where did where did uh, john piper ever say that anyone who died in that tornado was valueless worthy of nothing more than eternal torture pain violence and abuse now now just Catch The Writing here because it's purposeful

01:12:46

It's purposeful. There's there's a reason why This is being said the way it's being said it's meant to evoke and create particular emotions

01:12:58

That are meant to keep you from actually thinking straight. That's all there is to it eternal torture pain violence and abuse

01:13:09

Now what images is she trying to bring up? Is that a even semi -appropriate description?

01:13:21

of the punishment That would be properly

01:13:28

Placed upon a rebel sinner in hell Who is unrepentant and is a god hater?

01:13:38

Would you say that god is abusing? Someone in hell No, it's absurd

01:13:45

It's absurd on his face torture pain violence and abuse

01:13:55

This is rachel held evans distorted and twisted representation

01:14:02

Of A doctrine that clearly she doesn't believe

01:14:10

This is this is the rob bell version Okay If you're going to talk about the neo -reformed movement, whatever else that means at least represent it, right?

01:14:26

Therefore natural disasters such as the recent tornado outbreak the asian tsunami of 2004 the japanese earthquake sickness cancer accidents

01:14:33

As well as evil perpetuated by others the sandy hook shootings the boston bombings

01:14:38

I thought there was only one shooting there The boston bombings the holocaust 9 11 are merely expressions of this god's small g again

01:14:46

See, she can't even that's not god unending unquenchable And unpredictable wrath upon man upon humankind.

01:14:55

That is absurd That's absurd Unquenchable what's the cross ma 'am?

01:15:06

What was the cross? unpredictable What?

01:15:13

What do you mean unpredictable well, we didn't know where the tornado was going but god's wrath

01:15:20

Always has a perfectly righteous object And unpredictable, um romans 1 again poured out present tense

01:15:33

Is being poured out against all the ungodliness of men Don't talk to me about unpredictable sin triggers in small g god

01:15:46

Is just so childish a sudden outburst a violent temper tantrum Again absurdity

01:15:54

They can't actually attack the reality So they misrepresent it if she even knows what it is

01:16:01

And humanity exposed to a brief glimpse of what this god small g really thinks of us what we all really quote deserve end quote

01:16:16

Thankfully in the midst of all this she um She does quote at least some john piper.

01:16:23

So at least there's some truth that gets out Whether anybody hears it or not, I don't know piper's response to the asian tsunami summarizes the view well

01:16:33

Now notice the vast difference between what piper actually said her twisted version of it, which she doesn't even seem to see

01:16:38

It doesn't seem there's anyone that can say to her. No, you're wrong. Rachel. She won't listen to me

01:16:44

Not gonna listen to any of us out here There's a fellow that should be doing that but not sure what he's up to The point of every deadly calamity is this repent

01:16:55

This is piper Let our hearts be broken that god means so little to us notice.

01:17:01

She turned that to God thinks we mean so little Let our hearts be broken that god means so little to us.

01:17:08

That's the true Grieve that he is a whipping boy to be blamed for pain

01:17:13

But not praised praised for pleasure lament that he makes headlines only when man mocks his power

01:17:19

But no headlines for 10 000 days of wrath withheld Let us rend our hearts that we love life more than we love jesus christ

01:17:27

Let us cast ourselves on the mercy of our maker. He offers it to the death and resurrection of his son This is the point of all pleasure and pain and all pain pleasure says god is like this only better Don't make an idol out of me.

01:17:39

I only point to him pain says what sin deserves is like this only worse Don't take offense at me.

01:17:45

I am a merciful warning Man, if she can't see that really makes me wonder

01:17:52

Really makes me wonder big time Big time then she goes on piper's god small g grow up rachel

01:18:09

Piper's god is like an abusive father filled with unpredictable rage lie His family must walk on eggshells afraid of suddenly enraging him

01:18:17

Why should he be provoked this god small g will lash out with deadly earthquakes tsunamis violence and war?

01:18:24

When his family cries out in anguish, he reminds them that they deserve no better They are despicable rotten to the core.

01:18:30

So even in their pain They are doing better than they deserve the fact that that any have been spared merely proves his love.

01:18:36

Oh my goodness, how Much time did it take you to pervert? That message into that You the the capacity is astounding,

01:18:51

I mean i've got my differences with john piper's approach on certain things But my goodness how on earth

01:19:01

Can you produce that kind of twistedness? Who is there in your life that can rebuke you that you will listen to?

01:19:09

Is the question I must ask Piper's god is like an abusive father filled with unpredictable rage

01:19:17

This is a man that teaches that we are at peace with god having been justified through the perfection of the work of his son justified by faith

01:19:25

That we are in christ And you're gonna say That our god is an abusive father filled unpredictable rage who on earth are you talking about?

01:19:35

How dare you? How dare you? astounding

01:19:44

Then having created this absurd straw man Which is probably one reason she never interacts with anybody

01:19:52

Straw men do not survive cross -examination very well if you know how to do cross -examination anyways This theology is in a word abusive

01:20:01

I would say this blog article in a word is abusive For it blames the victim for whatever calamity abuse or tragedy.

01:20:09

She suffers and says it is there the victim hmm Our now we're we're using the v word the victim word

01:20:18

Not sinners. No, no, no, no, no We're talking victims now not sinners

01:20:27

Not someone who had been As piper pointed out sustained by undeserved grace for 10 000 days before no, no, no, no, no

01:20:36

No, we're not going to talk about that We're not going to put it in the context that piper does because then we can't write blog art

01:20:42

Currently how many 400 and was it four at the time I did 406 comments and 692 reaction

01:20:53

Now we can't do that According to the theology the children who died in oklahoma this week got what they deserved

01:21:04

The victims of boston bombing got what they deserved the people taught caught in the twin towers island got what they deserved The victims of holocaust got what they deserve.

01:21:11

Let me ask you something Let me ask you something Rachel, I know you she's not listening to this.

01:21:17

So maybe somebody who follows her might When god created did he know these things were going to happen, you know, the only way that her theology could ever

01:21:28

Survive is if she adopted open theism Tell you what, i'll bet you dollars donut.

01:21:34

She is So you're left with the god who started all this up didn't know what's going to happen

01:21:40

And now it's like oh So rachel, let me ask you something those people died didn't

01:21:47

There was senseless evil in this universe Meaningless Empty and god created it

01:21:56

No, you're god You're god. Rachel. Let's let's put the shoe on the other foot mrs.

01:22:02

Evans Let's put the shoe on your foot. Shall we? Talk to us about your god

01:22:13

Did he know this was going to happen? Could he not stop it? Were any sinless people?

01:22:23

Taken away in this in this storm anyone It sounds like we're just saying is either god didn't know what's going to happen god couldn't stop it

01:22:33

Clearly god had no purpose in any of it Maybe the best he can do is make something good come out of it in some people's lives

01:22:41

But he's just you know, he's just doing the best he can Is that what you're telling us? I just It's just amazing to me

01:22:56

Absolutely amazing Let me say that here's here's what she says towards about you are not worthless

01:23:06

John piper would never say to anybody. They're worthless. You are not disposable

01:23:13

Well, the reality is even those who are mortal enemies of god for eternity

01:23:25

Have a purpose In his divine decree You are not merely the object of god's wrath.

01:23:35

You do not deserve to be abused. Oh, please Drop this abused thing

01:23:44

I suppose you think that prisoners I suppose you think that if if the man who decapitated that soldier gets life in prison

01:23:51

That's abuse When did justice become abuse?

01:23:57

mrs. Evans Let me ask you you are not merely the object of god's wrath that's your direct quote

01:24:07

Right, let me ask you are they The object of god's wrath

01:24:14

Yes, or no Because I don't know anybody john piper included they would ever say you are merely the object of god's wrath

01:24:29

Nobody amazing amazing wow

01:24:37

Some heavy stuff today. I'll have to admit some heavy stuff even for me, obviously

01:24:43

I have to think about these things and talk about these things and it's pretty heavy for me, too And to end with that the false accusation that john piper and the rest of us

01:24:55

He's just the figurehead presents abusive theology abusive god's holy

01:25:05

Justice is abuse Let me ask you something mrs. Evans. What do you see on the cross?

01:25:16

What do you see on the cross? Are you starting to agree with steve chalk divine child abuse maybe

01:25:25

I can't see how you could avoid that But you see when you look at the cross

01:25:36

When you look at the cross of jesus christ and you see

01:25:43

The wrath of god Or or do you see the wrath of god? Maybe you don't maybe you're one of those people doesn't believe in in penal substitutionary atonement

01:25:54

Which is another way of saying maybe you don't believe in the book of hebrews Or maybe that was just an ancient way of putting it.

01:26:01

We've we've come to some new understanding But when you look at the cross if you do not see the coalescence of the spotless

01:26:15

Purity and holiness of god that absolutely demands his wrath against sin

01:26:24

Joining together with his love mercy and grace at the one place in all of creation in the one person

01:26:37

Of all of creation where they can meet together Then you're not seeing the cross

01:26:43

You're not seeing the cross and that's my concern

01:26:51

Is that so many? Young quote evangelicals

01:26:57

I read a book by uh, carl truman this week as more of a paper But basically what he said was

01:27:05

There ain't no evangelicalism Can't be defined. It's not really there And you're going to see how fast it dissipates when it's illegal to say homosexuality is wrong

01:27:15

And he's right But sad to see how many of these young Untaught unstable

01:27:24

Quote -unquote evangelicals who have a skin of religiosity But no foundation

01:27:30

In a true christian worldview and true biblical revelation that goes against culture Their foundations are firmly entrenched in the cultural norms

01:27:42

It's scary to see how many of them Would go.

01:27:47

Yeah, I don't want this abusive theology stuff. Well There you go, folks number of very very important topics

01:28:01

I've been challenged. I don't know about you, but I hope if you Have been challenged you will think through What has been said and god will use it to make you a better servant of jesus christ.

01:28:12

Thanks for listening We'll see you next time on the dividing line. God bless I believe we're standing at the crossroads

01:28:42

Let this momentous flow away We must contend for the faith our fathers fought for we need a new reformation

01:29:07

Oh The dividing line has been brought to you by alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o

01:29:30

box 37106 phoenix, arizona 85069 You can also find us on the world wide web at aomin .org.

01:29:37

That's a o m i n dot o r g Where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks