November 14, 2008

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white Well greetings from the
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City of London. I am understanding that in all probability This is not going to work at least from what
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I am hearing What's coming back to me? I could barely
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Understand anything of the introduction. I certainly will not be able to take phone calls because I I cannot
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I Can't hear anything at all As far as what's on the other end, so I'm sort of waiting to see what kind of Response we get from the chat channel and as long as you can understand me, then we'll we'll press on But if not, then we'll we'll pull the plug, but everyone's saying it sounds okay so far
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So maybe it's just coming in. So well, we'll see how that works. So we'll attempt to make something make something work
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And you know, we might try a call later on. We'll see see how that works. So anyway
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Real quickly a catching you up on where we are here in London right now Had two debates so far and This weekend
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I will be speaking at Trinity Road Chapel I will be Speaking in the
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Sunday morning and Sunday evening services I'll also be speaking tomorrow morning to a men's group at Trinity Road Chapel beautiful church.
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I've got to try to get a picture This church was started during the days of Spurgeon and There is a pew in this church.
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I've got to take a picture of this Where there is a very clear Indentation in the pew of a
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German incendiary device that came through and Thankfully cyclist a person on ice go through the roof broke into the church and put the fire out before it could burn the church down and The pew is still there with the very clear indentation of the
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German incendiary device I've got to remember to get a picture of that when I'm there tomorrow because I find that just fascinating But anyway
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We had it's a beautiful church and we had a great time there last evening with the debate with Sammy Zafari on the subject of the deity of Christ Still upcoming then on Monday Will be the debate with the two -part debate with Shabir Ali on the subject of whether Muhammad is prophesied in the
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Bible, then we fly back to the United States and Then I have to get my my mind wrapped around what's could be going on in Durham and then back to Phoenix and so we're sort of about halfway through the trip right now and Let me go back and give you some reports on what has happened as far as the debates go
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The first debate was with Adnan Rashid on the subject of The Trinity does belief in the
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Trinity necessitate shirk now, I enjoyed getting a chance to meet
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Adnan and I Did in both situations both debates?
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Note that both of my opponents proclaimed themselves the victors of the debate
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Before I ever had an opportunity to actually even
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Speak so in their opening statements, they were declaring themselves the victors
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You've been refuted if you just study more closely Both of my opponents seem it does seem honestly
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That in the Muslim mindset the audience to whom you seem to be speaking is primarily your own people and You are primarily concerned about impressing your own people and not so much
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Concerned at all to try to reach the Christians in the audience now. I Want to edify the
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Christians in my audience, I want to encourage them in the faith All of those things but I want to reach the
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Muslims as well. And so I need to be very careful that To the best of my ability my argumentations are sound biblical
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Orthodox And at the same time then I need to study
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Islam. I need to understand Where the Muslims are coming from I need to try to use their language to speak to them in ways.
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It's understandable to them and so I tried to do both and I really do try to reach out to the
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Muslims and to communicate to the Muslims and to bring the gospel to the Muslims And these in these debates, but it just does not seem like my
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Muslim opponents have any concern whatsoever about about reaching individuals like myself because they engage in debate tactics that from any rational point of view
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Automatically puts them sort of behind the behind the curve a bit When you start off literally wasting your time talking about how well you're refuted by this and and So I'm the victor here.
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And and I mean it's just rhetoric and and maybe your your followers like that But does that really assist in any way shape or form in Performing in a true debate.
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And so I was a little interested to note that Adnan made his presentation when
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I Responded to that presentation. He got back up and repeated his presentation.
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He did not engage Any of the questions that I asked any of the challenges that I raised he just went back and in fact everyone
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At least all the Christians and I I think probably a fair number of Muslims likewise recognized that for different times in that debate
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I Had to correct his Misapprehension of what I had said in my opening statement in my opening statement
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I pointed out that by the time by the year 600 by beginning of time of Muhammad Muhammad to beginning his prophethood around AD 610
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That by that period of time The Doctrine of the Trinity was very well known there was you couldn't say well, you know the
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Quran doesn't understand the Doctrine of Trinity because Things were still up in the air and there was there was a lot of confusion and no one
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Really knew what was going on and so on and so forth. That just isn't true as I pointed out you had
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Nicaea you had Chalcedon You had the councils that had had spoken very clearly you had the
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Athanasian Creed you even had the material from I'm hearing a beeping sound someplace.
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I'm not sure where it's coming from Very odd Anyways, I hope that's not a fire alarm.
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Believe me. I heard a fire alarm last night, so I'd know what it was so being as it may
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I Basically was pointing out that Augustine had had written on the subject and It was well known.
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So so one excuse that cannot be made in reference to the subject of the
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Quran not understanding the Doctrine of Trinity would be that well, no one understood what the
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Trinity was at this point in time so I made that statement and Adnan gets up and he says look
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James White has admitted that nobody knew what the Trinity was until 600 years after Jesus And so what about all those
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Christians who for all those years for 600 years had? Not believe in the
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Trinity because it wasn't known until the AD 600 the days all go to hell and So when
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I get up, I correct him. I said that that's not what I said What I said was the Trinity was well known in 600.
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Therefore the Quran has no Reason to miss work. I never said I said this beginning and I quoted
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Ignatius and I quote biblical texts It just didn't matter how many times
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I said it it just it just didn't matter He just kept repeating over and over and over again
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This idea that I had somehow claimed that The Christians did not know the
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Trinity until 600 four Times until finally when he said the last time
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I could hear the audience At that point just going. Oh, come on How many times does the guy have to get up and say and so finally the fourth time when
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I got up? I said I'm I've given up on attempting to communicate to Adnan this fact, but very very clearly
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I Not said that you all can hear that and I I can't force
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Adnan To to hear me at this particular point in time
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This is this is called live webcasting if anything did there's something Beeping in my computer bag, but I can't find it
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So if there's a sudden loud explosion I'm sort of wondering if it's my if it's my timer
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You know my debate timer, but I don't I can't find it in there and I can I can
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I can hear the bag beeping Figure out what it is. So hey, this is this is called professional webcasting
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This is we are the Rush Limbaugh Webcasting.
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Oh my Okay, well anyway that was that that's interesting so I put it in the bathroom so Whatever it is, hopefully we'll have run out of Battery power
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But Programs over oh man, you can tell we just do this.
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This is just how we do things anyways Back to the Adnan Rashid debate well well attended and After I made my opening presentation and I and I heard that Adnan just basically sort of repeated the same points in response
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And and kept you know Kept going with this, you know, I don't know unnecessary a rhetoric that is just sort of I don't know.
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It's just has no no place in a debate in the rebuttal I I really started pressing forward the claims of who
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Jesus and and What the doctrine of Trinity is I really had an opportunity to press upon the
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Muslims in the audience Where I was coming from on this matter and and really had about 15 minutes to really present my case in a strong way and And I thought the debate was going very well.
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There was one disappointing part When we got there Adnan And the moderator insisted that the cross -examination period the quote -unquote crossfire period
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Would be taken up with audience questions and I said no Audience questions are almost never on the subject of the debate
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This is supposed to be in exchange between myself and I've not no no
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We have to we have to have audience questions. They they absolutely insisted on it So I've not managed to get away without having to undergo a cross -examination or even the crossfire format and of course the audience questions were by and large irrelevant to the topic as I said, they would be and So that was disappointing so I need to to make sure in the future
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That even when setting up multiple debates and all the difficulties we had in communication things like that to emphasize that from the start if there's not going to be meaningful interaction or at least a crossfire section that we're just not even going to bother because that's just you know, you
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It's not worth attempting to do a debate if there's not going to be interaction So again
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Tuesday night went very very well. I did manage to get that one videotaped on my little camera and of course it was professionally videotaped as well and that those tapes were made available to people as as They're edited and made available
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Then on Wednesday, I I had mentioned everyone that I had a wonderful opportunity
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But I did not want to mention what it was and Since it's now finished.
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I guess it's I've been told by those involved. Go ahead mention exactly what you did and No reason not to now clearly
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But on Wednesday of this week There is a something called RE here in UK religious
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Education that it is a part of the public school system. You are supposed to learn what religions other than your own believe and This was time for a group of Muslim students to learn about Christianity and specifically the doctrine of the
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Trinity and so I was asked to Present the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and then answer questions
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From an entire group of Muslim high school students, and so I did
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I gave my presentation using my PowerPoint or a keynote presentation of the doctrine the
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Trinity and then they started with their questions and They were great questions and about the
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Fourth or sixth if you get from it was a question was isn't Muhammad prophesied in the
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Bible and there was a young man sitting down front Who had
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I would say 20 sheets of handwritten notes and he was ready for a debate and So I started to respond to the question on Muhammad and he started quoting
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Ahmed D. Dot Almost word -for -word and When I said to him you're quoting
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Ahmed D. Dot you could you could see all of them looking at me going, you know who Ahmed D.
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Dot is and You know the young man even read a whole section from Isaiah 42 and I continued on in Isaiah to demonstrate who the suffering servant
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Really is and and all these other wonderful things and it was a great time
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They respected me and I respected them and we had great exchange and even when it was over with the guys especially
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Stayed around and we're going. Oh, we'd love to see you debate soccer night. That would be great. Oh, that'd be wonderful and it was it was great and so it was it was a great opportunity to have you know speak with those young folks and and to do so with with freedom and and To explain the faith to them and things like that.
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It was a really neat opportunity. So That's what we we did on on Wednesday.
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And then of course yesterday Thursday In fact, I should have queued this up.
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I apologize Maybe I could still actually do it As long as the computer doesn't give me a problem here.
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I have a lot of programs running on it right now But I'll see if I can't pull this up and see if we can't make this work
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Yesterday morning I Roger Brazier the pastor here in London first pastor here in London that brought me over back in 2005
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Went with me into downtown London to premier radio which is a
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Christian radio network and We Did a debate sort of a discussion anyways,
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I'm not sure if you'd actually call it a bait With Justin Briarley on the unbelievable radio program which aired today aired just a few hours ago here in the
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London area and my Opponent was
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Abdullah the same Abdullah that you've seen on YouTube who?
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Dresses very well, shall we say as I told him my best addressed
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Islamic opponent and We also went after the doctrine of the
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Trinity in essence and Discussed it for two 26 -minute segments basically an hour -long program that aired today on The unbelievable radio program and I have brought it up here.
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I'm not sure how well it's going to work But let's let me see if I can at least play you a short segment of Of the discussion here.
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I don't really see a dividing place anywhere here, but The When you're looking at nothing but video clips trying to figure out where things are
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It's it's interesting to try to figure out I don't want to come into the middle of something that isn't going to make a whole lot of sense
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All right. All right. This is probably you'll probably be hearing Justin Briarley.
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Let me see if this is even going to play for you Was in response to these what he saw as polytheistic beliefs wasn't it in Mecca he saw
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Polities and both in as it were pagan religions and in this Mason Christian religion and said this this has taken us away from the worship of the one true
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God and hence in many ways It is the Trinity if you like that is partially Accountable in some ways for the growth of Islam from the very answer
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Well, there's a lot of question as to exactly what's Muhammad's knowledge the doctrine the Trinity was what kind of Christians he had encountered there's a lot of question as to Did he only encountered a story in Christians or or even
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Christians had any knowledge whatsoever of the doctrine itself or having solid knowledge It's it's hard to say but I think it's important to emphasize that the reason that I believe in the doctrine of the
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Trinity is because I believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I believe as Jesus said that the scriptures cannot be broken as Paul said that all scriptures
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They ought to stop as God breathed or as Peter put it men spoke From God as they were carried along by the
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Holy Spirit And so when I read those scriptures, I see three foundational truths that are clearly presented in those texts
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First of all, there is only one true God in the Old Testament the tetragrammaton Yahweh, which we slaughter in English as Jehovah But Yahweh is the one true
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God. He is the creator of all things. He is owes his existence to none. He is timeless
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There is nothing that exists outside of his will and yet that same name
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When we come in a New Testament, though, the Greek New Testament does not contain the name Yahweh Those texts that talk about him are applied to three persons the
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Father the Son the Holy Spirit And so we have biblical monotheism There is only one true
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God all the gods the people's are idols psalm 96 5 before me There is not no God formed thou shalt be on after me
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Isaiah 43 10 But then we have the introduction in the New Testament of these three divine persons
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Clearly distinguished from one another the Father is not the Son of the Son is not the Spirit in John 14
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Jesus refers to the Father he talks about the love that exists between he and the Father in John 17 he says he shared glory with the
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Father before creation itself came into existence and Then he speaks about sending another come through the
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Holy Spirit Who proceeds forth from the Father so we have these three
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Persons and then they're described as possessing the attributes in nature of God the
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Father clearly So the Son is described as the Creator He is described as having eternal existence in John 1 1 he is described as God and numerous passages
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Thomas after the resurrection When he sees Jesus that cries out to him
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The text cannot be taken in any other way other than saying my Lord and my God to Jesus Jesus does not rebuke him.
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He accepts. This is a confession of faith, and then we have the Spirit when Ananias and Sapphira Lie to the
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Spirit of God you have not lied to men, but to God he's identified as God He gives the gifts to the church as he wills so he's personal
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In first Corinthians 12 and so we have these three persons, but then we have the question well
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Could it be that that we are somehow violating our Old Testament monotheism? No Every person that writes in the
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New Testament was a monotheistic Jew would say the Shema every morning from Deuteronomy 6 4 here Israel Lord our
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God the Lord is one and so We have the equality of those persons presented to us in Scripture not identity
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Because clearly the scriptures differentiate between the Father Son the Spirit was not it was not the father who became flesh
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It's not the son or the father who indwells us now They instead have sent the
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Holy Spirit and by means of that spirit and dwell believers and so you have these three foundations absolute biblical monotheism the teaching the existence of three divine persons and then the equality of those persons which is the reason why if you accept sola scriptura scripture alone sole rule of faith for the church and Tota scripture all the scripture
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You are forced to the Doctrine of the Trinity by taking all that information together
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Do you see the Trinity is something that we only really find though in the New Testament or do you believe it exists in the?
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Old Testament the concept the the Doctrine of the Trinity is actually revealed in the coming of the
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Son in flesh And in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and all of that takes place between Malachi and Matthew The New Testament then becomes the record of that Revelation of the
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Trinity each of the writers the New Testament is an experiential Trinitarian think of someone like Peter Peter stands upon the
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Mount of Transfiguration He sees Jesus transfigured. He sees the glory of Christ. He hears the
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Father speaking from heaven. He's now indwelled by the Holy Spirit He is an experiential Trinitarian and that is why the language of the
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New Testament is soaked in Trinitarian terminology Why it's so easy for example for the
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New Testament writers to speak of the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ in the same passage going back and forth between the two because there's no there's no conflict in their understanding and so The the revelation is it prophesied in the
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Old Testament? I believe that it clearly is Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6. We have this prophecy of this one who is to come and There we are told that a child will be born to us and the term born
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There is the standard term in the Hebrew language for natural birth of a child But then it says a son will be given to us.
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The government will be upon his shoulders in English shall be called wonderful counselor mighty God everlasting
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Father Prince of Peace Who is this? Who is this one? Who is who is to come that such exalted language could be used of him that is only used of Yahweh so while I don't think that the
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Old Testament is quote -unquote Trinitarian in that sense because the revelation hasn't taken place the prophecies of that coming one
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Psalm 2 Speaks of one that we are to kiss the Sun lest he be angry He rules over the nations and so we can see in this fulfillment in the
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New Testament That the one who's to come is not merely Just a a prophet but is in fact divine knowledge
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Abdullah I mean, I would say I find it highly conspicuous that the whole of the the
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Old Testament or the belief the Jews and Judaism there's not there's no revelation of the issue of Trinity and now if the
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Regardless of the Christian interpretation of New Testament, which I think we can go into it doesn't really matter What what temptation you have the the natural doctrine itself when you think about it rationally?
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Why is it that if we're we are required to believe in a doctrine which the Jews they know about for thousands of years?
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In you know in the Old Testament why it took the New Testament had this revelation and so on which itself is disputed among between different Christian factions, but And so on and also other
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I mean other issues such as obviously the total script or and so on that we have to take the older scriptures again
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Where is your your your basis for taking all these scriptures what scriptures what all the scriptures are you taking what goes into the you know?
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What did you give a contents page about which books are going to be the everything you're going to be you can accept? so I think that it brings up a lot of questions about the the origins of the issue of the
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Trinity and Just very conspicuous for to anyone which I would say so so you'd say just into it firstly there is no trinitarian conception that obviously springs out of a
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Reading of Jewish, you know the Jewish history, but on top of that for you There's simply a logical problem of the idea of three gods, but one or three persons, but one
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God. I mean that view is a Central, you know, whatever Interpretation you make of the
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New Testament that's still going to be a problem Yeah, I mean I think when the perhaps when when certain
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Christians during the history of Christianity encountered What they wanted the need to basically write said
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Jesus divine, but the problem is it was brought up Well, he was praying to a father. And so how do you reconcile that?
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We want to make him divine, but who's this other person he's praying to and when we see okay I think the
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Holy Spirit might be born there on or so, but whatever the case In order to reconcile these contradictory things you believe in one
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God because you said, you know one God But at the same time you want to make Jesus divine and I think it's a human
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Phenomenon that you want to make a God you can see someone you can personally interact with For example in India right now
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Sai Baba Who's currently living is revealed as a God as a God incarnate by by Hindus Haile Selassie was revealed as a
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God by the Rastafarians and there's been many Human beings who've been revealed as God incarnate for the history of humanity from Hercules to the
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Krishna And even more contemporary ones. So that's okay. So I would say that the the main that the problem
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I Is that when looking at the the history or at least just looking at the actual the conception?
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You want to have three things which you want to make into one? So, how do you reconcile this? Well, the
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Christians came up with an interesting play of words instead of saying three gods three gods in an alliance
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They said no, we'll say one God but three persons, but I want to know and it's a sign
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I mean, I've you know, I've read Augustine's book on the Trinity and I read in a
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Few contemporary explanation of Trinity and I think that makes sense is what is a person? How do you define these these person?
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It's just the name to that was brought up Working to justify free Whereas if you actually dig into it when you're asking for example, you say right if Jesus says
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Jesus is eternal fine Jesus was not created fine. So he wasn't made by anything.
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So he wasn't made by anything that he's independent He doesn't need anything. He's not dependent being like we are so if he's not dependent
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Then what need does he have of the father and so on when he prays to the father? How does that make sense?
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I mean So I'm Christians have tried sometimes James to sort of define the
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Trinity in ways that might be helpful They've maybe talked about well water comes in the form of ice steam liquids and or think of a
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Block, you know, which has in a sense two -dimensional faces, but as a whole is a three -dimensional object
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I mean, are those helpful or do they kind of are they red herrings? No, I don't
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Obviously that we believe that God exists in an absolute unique fashion Therefore any type of analogy to the created order is going to fail at some point and so I in my book
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I have discussed the various failures of the The three -leaf clover and all the rest of stuff that people have attempted to use over time obviously, we believe that God exists in a unique fashion and Again, we come back to the issue of whether this is a divine revelation or whether something that man comes to in some rational
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Thought process and we need to be consistent. For example of villages to raise. Well, well, how do we know what the scriptures are?
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Well, how do we know what the what the Islamic scriptures are? I mean, we know that sir al -baqarah Existed as a separate book in some people's minds even outside the
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Quran in the early years There are all sorts of questions that we can ask about With man's revision and all those types of things
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Every religion has to answer those questions. The fact that people ask those questions does not mean there's not an answer those things
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That's the first thing Secondly I said we do have to look at what the New Testament says and the New Testament writers are monotheists
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They are not saying well, we have three gods How do we figure out how to make them one God in any way shape or form the fact that there is one divine name?
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We're baptized in a single name The fact there's one divine name that monotheistic Jews are going to recognize in the
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Old Testament the Greek translation the Old Testament The name Yahweh was rendered by the Greek term kudios, which means
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Lord It's interesting to me that that's Jesus's normative term throughout the New Testament He is kudios only by the
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Holy Spirit. Can we say Jesus kudios? Jesus is Lord And so it's not a matter of us trying to quote -unquote figure this out.
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We have a divine text In this divine text Jesus says unless you believe that I am using the very same terminology
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Yahweh uses of himself in the Old Testament you will die in your sins So it wasn't generations later someone trying to go
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Well, we want to make Jesus a God because we want to have a God that we can see no They have these inspired texts and they are attempting to do with them
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What the faithful Muslim attempts to do with the Quran when I interpret the Quran? I try to look at all the
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Quran has to say I think it's unfair to pull one part out and say well I'm going to isolate this out and the Muslim agrees with that But when it comes a
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New Testament, they operate on a different standard Instead when we come to the New Testament is very very clear
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John says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God Here you have in three phrases the description the fact that the logos the word who becomes flesh in John 1 14 has eternally existed
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He did not come into existence at a point in time in the past Secondly that there's been an eternal relationship between he and the father as John 18 says that God's being spoken of here
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Is the father and that he is as to his nature deity now if that's in your inspired text
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Along with the assertion is only one true God Then you have to accept what that text says it's not it's not some
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Well, we just have to we want to change things after the revelation is taking place This is an inherent part of the revelation itself.
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There can be no question of that before we get a response from a particular if you're listening you're listening to a discussion on whether the
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Christian doctrine of the Trinity leads to polytheism That's what many Muslims believe and Abdullah you
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Sufi is one of them He's with me here in studio along with Christian apologist James White Don't forget you can give us your comments on the debate today by emailing unbelievable at the premier dot org dot
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UK or you can phone me your phone response to this discussion on 0845 652 52 52 and select option 5 you can do that whether you're listening live this
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Saturday afternoon Or you're listening to the podcast I can pick it up and play it out on next week's program and indeed pass on any relevant pieces of information to my guests you're so Let's just get back into this discussion because Abdullah James is saying look
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We're not trying to make you know sense of something after the event This this stuff about the
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Trinity is inherent in in the original stuff This isn't something that a later accounts will try to kind of force on to the text in some way
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I mean, what do you make of that? Well, the Bible is not a diary It's not a personal a personal account of someone thinking hmm.
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I want to go, you know, make free goes to one How do I do this? Okay, I'll do it like this. No, it's the finished document.
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It is they've you know produced work I mean and no one's gonna say we're gonna put free goes into one.
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They're gonna give a spin on it. For example Pro -lifers No doubt.
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I think James would be against their position. They don't call abortion killing of children They call abortion abortion just like, you know abortion the choice the woman to Basically choose what happens to a body pro -choice rather pro -life.
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He said pro -life So yeah pro -choice the so the deal people use euphemisms to you know, and word games to change the actual, you know, meaning of To give a different spin to a to what essentially is something else they're doing good
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So I believe in calling a spade a spade If you know in terms of the actual text,
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I mean, obviously we're not here to To say right. Well, you know this this text and Where did it come from and so on so forth?
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Yes, this question can be asked and this is very interesting question where that can lead but I think in the case is that God gave us a mind and God is not all for confusion and He gave us a mind to you know, choose between and be able to kind of tell between falsehood and truth
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So if something doesn't make sense Regardless of which book it comes from I would I would say
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I mean, I'm break I'll say I can sit in in this if the Quran says something which is irrational And obviously speaking of Muslim I have no compunction about saying this but likewise
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I would I would like the Christians to approach their Bible in the same way or their interpretation of Bible or however wherever they derived their belief from I'd like to them to approach this because end of the day the sign that we all
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Agree on which is that we all have minds and we all agree on obviously we can see the universe in Europe and existence around Us so this common this common language the universal language of rational thinking which
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God has given us Is it enable human beings to determine the truth and not just a blindly accept texts?
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what if you know if the Harry Potter became forgotten then 2 ,000 years ago They came up with a book out of the ground and stone believes it without critical about critical reasoning on this
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See now what James White might condemn as liberal scholarship is Is actually just critical reading of the text and I think in a second
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James what mentioned that we know we shouldn't use analogies. We shouldn't compare the divine to any analogy to explain and so on and I agree with this
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Although you know in his video on YouTube Trinity versus one this debate part one He used an analogy to explain the divine the
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Trinity by saying that all the humans in the audience We are all the same substance same who's here, but we are all different persons
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Hypostasis different persons now he used an analogy in that he did use imagine that in that case and I would say that that's actually a very interesting analogy because He's saying that all these people in the audience are one substance for different persons
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Well, of course, but there's multiple people in the audience No doubt that the Greek pagan gods are all made of the same substance, but they're all different gods
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So I would say that, you know, it's for reasons like this, which I think the Trinity Logically and I mean, would you agree that James that I mean you said analogies do break down because God is yeah
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And that was an analogy. I was using on the Trinity at all. I was Bill has misunderstood me
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I was simply illustrating the difference between two terms and that is being in person and I Illustrated the fact that we as human beings always differentiate between these terms
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We recognize that even inanimate objects have being I'll pick up a rock toss at somebody else
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That will be empirical proof that a rock has being but rocks are impersonal. You can insult a rock all you want
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It's not really going to care because it's not personal and I was saying we as human beings Share the same kind of being our being is limited in time and space
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But each one of us is personal and we differentiate on those levels I was not in any way describing the Trinity with that analogy.
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So that that's a misunderstanding, but I am NOT a rationalist I believe that God has given us our minds to think his thoughts after him
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I believe that we are to be consistent and all the rest of those things, but I'm not a rationalist I do not sit here and say that that man's mind is the measure of God's existence
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And I do not believe there's anything irrational in Recognizing the difference between being in person Your being in my being we are limited in time and space
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Right now I am seven hours ahead of my family back in in in Phoenix It's matrix very difficult to call home and get a chance to talk with them at the right time
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I Cannot by locate between those two locations. I am limited in time and space God is not and while my being is probably only shared by one person upon what logical or rational basis
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Do we say that God's being being infinite cannot be shared by three divine persons fully and completely?
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That is an issue of divine revelation. Is it not God's business to reveal to us exactly?
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How much he wants us to know of his of his divine being Jeremy 29 29 says the things are revealed belong to us and for Our children the secret things belong to the
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Lord our God I suppose one of your arguments Abdullah might be though But if God wants to reveal himself to us and wants us to believe in him
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Why would he do it in a confusing way that we can't grasp with our mind? I mean, is that what you're getting at?
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When you say God is not the author of confusion, this is a confusing I didn't say we can't grasp it with with our mind
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I didn't say that I did not Make sure because if you're gonna answer a question, it needs to be based upon what
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I'm saying I am NOT saying that we cannot understand the doctrine of Trinity What I'm saying is that on God's most basic level.
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I cannot comprehend how he's eternal I cannot wrap my mind around timelessness And if that's the most and that's something we both agree about about God and if I can't wrap my mind about around that Then I'm certainly not going to demand
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That the highest level of his revelation about himself that somehow I am to derive that solely from Something other than divine revelation
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We'll get a response from Abdullah in a moment because we're just coming to the end of this section of the program if you're listening Then do do tune in again in just a moment's time
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Well, there you go. There's I don't know that was about 15 minutes maybe of the
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Unbelievable radio program on the premier radio network. You can google Justin Briarley and unbelievable and pull up their materials.
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There's a podcast of the entirety of it. That should be available as well and That aired here in London as I said yesterday and That was very enjoyable even though Getting there was a challenge
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The London traffic Streets around here have one lane going each direction and That was
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Goodness a very difficult trip. We we actually got to the studios at 958 and as we were 10, so we made it but just barely but we still beat up dull there anyway, so it didn't really matter but We had fun getting on the tube and the trains and stuff like that Phoenicians like myself just are not accustomed to public transport of really any kind at all
41:54
It was interesting I figure I covered at least four or five miles yesterday on foot and Again, not something that a
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Phoenician is overly accustomed to in in travels, but it is
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Interesting to get a chance to do all of those those types of things and even to be in the tube when it stops
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Because there's a red light and you just sit there and it's warm down there I can't imagine what it's like during the during the summer.
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It just must be horrible and they tell me that they're trying to talk about How to air condition the tube but no one has come up with a decent idea of how to do it so it's
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I Just I remind me not to be in the tube in July. Don't even want to be close. So anyway, so Actually, someone checked
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I'm just asked you have good shoes, you know Actually, I I I have been wearing the same pair of Walmart specials
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That I bought for about $12 .99 in Auburn when I was speaking in Auburn on the
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Da Vinci Code back in 2005 and the inside of them finally ripped on this trip from all this walking yesterday
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Well now I have a very nice pair of British shoes proper
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British shoes and of course when I wear my British shoes, I'll have to speak with my
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British accent, but But no,
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I did have to actually replace my shoes yesterday and So I wore those the debate last night, but anyway
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Again more information we're actually looking for but hey, we don't pretend to be anything more than we are around here
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And that's just plain old folks Then last evening finally a Trinity Road Chapel in upper to team
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Yes, there is a place called to ting in London and in upper to ting we had our debate last evening again a beautiful beautiful facility a great
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Projector my Presentation looked real nice. Hey, someone in London just said that my accent sound just like them.
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So see I told you I've told you all along Thank You London truth, you're you're now one of my favorite people anyway
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Had a good group turn out again I'm not sure how to divide the audiences up Because it's sort of hard to tell because I've had people come up to me and they've introduced themselves as Muslims and I wouldn't have guessed that they were by their dress
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And I've other people come up that look like they're in Muslims, but they weren't there are Christians. So it's it's difficult to say
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I Guess a safe guess would be around 60 %
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Christian 40 % Muslim or maybe half and it's Hard to say I did not attempt to to really take a poll or you know doing accounting or anything so Last evening was a debate with Sammy's artery whether Jesus is the prophet of Islam or the
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Divine Son of God and Again I I Didn't particularly avoid the debate simply because Sammy's way of debating was again to you know be proclaiming himself the the winner and I refute you in this and you you
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Refuted yourself and that he assumes for example, if he disagrees with you that you've automatically refuted yourself
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Sammy really struggles with category errors if he made less than a hundred last night,
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I'd be very surprised and He then had you know after I have presented this entire
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Presentation with Titus 2 13 and 2nd Peter 1 1 and John 1 1 and all these all these texts
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Demonstrating that the deity of Christ. He will actually stand in front of the audience and say that Dr.
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White has failed to show you a single person who believed in the deity of Christ or Any evidence that deed and it just so overstates his case
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That it really destroys credibility, but the thing so far has been
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Expected but somewhat disappointing to me has been so far neither of my opponents
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And I'm not including the radio program that wasn't long enough to really get it a real read on on Abdullah, but Neither of my opponents show any
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Interest in Hearing what I'm saying and interacting with it in any meaningful fashion
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Neither one shows any interest in actually really knowing what I believe and interacting with it on that level that that is plain
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Now that's one of the differences with should be wrongly At least he does. I think have a greater knowledge of what
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I believe and hence is a little bit more able to Enter into a meaningful discussion on that level but Some people might say well, then why do you why do you engage?
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with Someone like this. Why would you engage the samizatari?
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because during for example during the the Cross -examination. Well the crossfire
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I guess is what we call He brought up some really I thought Very poor arguments for example,
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Mary should should know that Jesus is God from the very beginning She should have some sort of a
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Trinitarian confession from the from the earliest moments She can't grow and her knowledge of who her son is.
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She can't she should just know all this right from the start based on Well, he even said
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Isaiah 53 and it was Isaiah 7. He wouldn't even admit he was wrong about the chapter, which I found
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Again somewhat odd. Okay, so you you miscited which chapter we're looking at why not just admit that that's no big deal
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But he just kept pounding away on that even though honestly I don't think there was a single Christian in the audience that could care less what he was saying not because Of anything other than he just he doesn't understand the concept of category errors he doesn't understand where we're coming from enough to actually make any type of compelling argument and So anyway,
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I Then finally challenged him on the textual level on the basis of John 1 1 and I was moving toward Hebrews 1 we literally ran out of time, but You can just listen to the cross -examination period there
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The last thing on earth he wanted to do was to get into the text He was avoiding trying to get into text as much as he could
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I felt Adnan was as well Because I think both sense the fact that that that's not where they can go they can make broad assertions but they cannot go toe -to -toe with someone who is knowledgeable of the scriptures in their original languages that because they're not and So I thought there's a lot of bluster that Was I think fairly easily detectable in both debates, but especially
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Last evening so people ask. Well, why do you engage these? Well because they represent the Muslim Street They represent the kind of argumentation that is being presented to our brothers and sisters in other lands especially when those brothers and sisters are under the persecution that so often is a part of Sharia and So as distasteful as it can be at times to be perfectly honest with you
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To engage in some of these debates the attitudes that are expressed can be sometimes be you know
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I I don't enjoy that kind of Encounter. I don't enjoy having to constantly correct basic and fundamental thinking errors and category errors and factual errors but I do so primarily because of my love for the truth of God and the fact that I Have brothers and sisters who face that kind of thing all the time and and I want to model for them how they can give
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A proper response. I got a God -honoring response. And so that's why that's why we engage in that and so again, we had a good a good group that came out and the presentation
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I think was very strong in regards to the deity of Christ who he is and I just kept throwing it back to the audience
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You know Sammy had to keep claiming victory for himself to sort of rally his troops But I just kept throwing it back to the audience and I I really really do hope and pray
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That there are Muslims and attendants who are
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Troubled in spirit by the large contrast that exists between the approach
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That is taken by the Muslim debaters and and the approach that I take I hope they hear that and they see that and they go
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You know, why why is there this this kind of difference what what does that say and that maybe they would then hear what
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I'm attempting to say and why I'm why I'm saying what I'm saying and Certainly as a believer in the sovereign grace of God Then I I believe
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God will draw his people unto himself and that is a great comfort That is a great boon in doing evangelism and in the proclamation of the gospel and once again another
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Refutation I saw the Turretin fan Today posted a article demonstrating that I am not what my opponents like to argue that I am in regards to being a hyper
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Calvinist and the fact that You know, I have very clearly proclaimed to these individuals the reality that They cannot be neutral about Jesus Christ that to be neutral about Christ is to reject
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Christ and Given that they are borrowing every breath and every beat of their heart from their creator
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Jesus Christ that they must deal with who he is and that unless they believe as Jesus himself said in John 8 24 unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins and Those are strong words.
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Those are difficult words But they are true words and I've pressed them with with great force upon those who
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Who were in attendance? So there's there's what we've been doing so far as I said that tomorrow and Sunday.
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I'll be speaking at Trinity Road Chapel Not sure.
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I'm seeing people asking about speakers corner Not sure whether I'm going to make that or not.
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A lot of it depends on whether I have Completed all of my preparations for not only the
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Shabir Ali debate, which I'm getting close to completing right now but also a the weather and be whether I have completed my preparations for the next debate, which is
53:28
Coming up right as soon as I get back to the u .s. Like I said, I'm not even flying home. I'm just going to Duke University and At That point then
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I Only have one day to get over the trip And then the next day is the debate with self a car
53:45
Ali Shah and I am I'm not finished with that Presentation yet either and I'm just of the
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Constitution that I really do not like to Be rushing into a presentation
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I want to have finished I want to be able to You know review it and to be
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You know feeling like I'm ready to go Well beforehand, so this idea of having to put together all these debates normally
54:16
I spend a great deal of time putting together debate material sometimes the number of months to do this many debates in a short period of time is quite a quite a challenge and also
54:28
David Wood is debating tomorrow evening and I Would love to be able to be there
54:36
But I'm not sure that I'm gonna be able to if I can if I can get at least one of these done we'll find out but he's gonna be doing a debate that I would love to listen to and that's on the satanic verses and I'm looking forward to that as well.
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So that's a Sort of a summary of where we've been where we're going
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Again very quickly. I want to thank all of those who have been praying I've gotten many notes from people who say you've been praying for this trip.
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I have been in very good Physical health so far and I'm very thankful for that.
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I would especially like to thank Roger Priscilla and Justin Brazier And the folks at the
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Edmonton Baptist Chapel Since I landed until yesterday They took care of everything for me and I Just have said many times before That Roger and I are brothers who were separated at at birth somehow
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He also ended up about six inches taller than me. I'm not sure how it happened, but we clearly were separated birth just one of those folks that is a
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Dear dear brother and very special for him so I want to thank them for all that they did for me while I was with them and now very thankful to have
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The time to be with Doug McMaster's who's in channel right now. In fact, hi
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Doug and He and his lovely wife and sons have been taking care of me.
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Doug is a master cooker of Hashbrowns, I discovered this morning
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And I've never seen hashbrowns made in this way before they were tortured and Folded and spindled and mutilated before they returned
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But they were very very good so If you want to come out to a
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Trinity Road Chapel here if you're in London, I'm sure you'll enjoy getting to know so Anyway, that's where we are.
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Thank you very much for listening to the dividing line today. I Don't know when we'll be back with you again
56:47
Like I said traveling next week and everything else, but I'll try to blog it and let you know keep praying for us.
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God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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