The Asbury Revival: Is it Real?

Revival at Asbury and the Question of Authenticity

We're going to talk about something that many of you have messaged me about over the last few days. So I am responding to that to some extent, this is a listener-generated episode, but I have my own curiosity, I will admit, about what's happening in Kentucky right now.

There is a revival, at least that's what some people are calling it, at Asbury University Historically Methodist School, I believe, Methodist Training Center for Pastors, and I am not in Kentucky, as many of you know, but I have friends all over the country, and so I'm grateful to be joined by both pastors Jerry Dorris and Austin Keeler, that's not Keller, it's Keeler, and they are both familiar with this.

They've attended this particular revival, what is called a revival, I don't know if I want to call it that yet, we'll see what happens at the end of the episode, but actually right now, Pastor Keeler is in his car, it's a rainy day, so he can't be outside, but he's in the parking lot right now for Asbury University or Asbury Seminary.

So hey guys, I appreciate it so much, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. Good to see you. Yeah, it's good. I want to say one more thing before we jump into this, because I know you mentioned it to me, but if you like what you hear in this podcast, and if you're in the area, the Tennessee, or Kentucky rather, area, then you might want to check out the church that both Pastor Dorris and Pastor Keeler are part of in Shelbyville.

They have actually a conference coming up, a family conference, and you can go to ReformationWarRoom .com, it's next weekend, ReformationWarRoom .com, and so you guys must be busy. I'm sure you are.

Abolition, Equal Protection, and Local Ministry

Yeah, it's a busy day even today. Actually, tomorrow we have a bill of abolition being put forward, and I'll be speaking on the Capitol lawn to put that forward. It's HB 300, and we're hoping that we can have equal protection for pre-borns, and then just a few hours ago, the Kentucky Supreme Court upheld the trigger laws so that we are no longer feeling like we're going to have to go down—we won't have to go down to the abortion clinic, something that Austin and I and other pastors at Rep Church have done on the daily for years there, so a lot is going on.

Wow.

Yeah, when I ever see social media posts from you, Pastor Dorris, they are—I'm just amazed at where you are and what you're doing, and you guys are certainly impacting your local community, which I praise God for.

What Counts as a True Revival

Revival. You want to see it. I want to see it. You're working in all these ways that you just mentioned a little bit of to bring people into the throne room, as they say, to have an encounter with the Lord of the universe, to repent of their sins, to be in a right relationship with Jesus, to be justified by Christ.

All these things that we are seeking would be fulfilled if a revival truly broke out, and I think I would love for this to be a legitimate revival, so I'm hoping you're just going to tell me right now that what you saw is a true, authentic, biblical revival, and we should all go to Kentucky, but I'm feeling like you're not going to do that.

So, Austin, why don't we start with you, since you're there right now. You were just inside, I'm assuming. What's it like right now?

Is it repentance? Is it testimonies? Is it singing? What's going on? Well, it's been going on for, I think, eight days now, and Pastor Jerry and I were there for just several hours yesterday, and only in the chapel itself for two and a half hours.

Today, I was in one of the overflow chapels for the last hour. It's an overflow chapel that is across the street from Hughes Auditorium. That is the main gathering place, and right now there was about, as I was waiting in line outside Hughes, and then it was redirected to the overflow chapel, there was about an hour of singing, and then there was, they read John 15, and then there were some testimonies, and then more singing, and that's the general gist of, I guess, the order of service right now.

So I want to show a video that Pastor Doris sent to me. I'm assuming you were there as well, Pastor Keeler, for this, but it's a video of a testimony that you both saw, and just to give people a sample of what's going on there, let me see if I can bring it up for everyone here.

This is, let's see here, looks like, there it is. Alright, can you all see that? Yeah, we can. Alright. I'm going to play it. This is Sidney.

Sidney Peterson. I'm going to share, but I'm sharing because I think that God really wants to use my testimony to free people from similar burdens and similar shame that I had. I want to show you guys that it's possible, and that it's something I'm not ashamed of, and I'm, you know, I really feel loved by God and I really want to share it with you guys.

So, about my sexuality. And I was told that that was my identity, and just had so much shame about it, and thought that it was something I could never escape, and that lies would just follow me to every part of my life that I tried to pursue.

And then I went to this camp called, like, Commission, it's with Kona, YWAM, and she was sharing her testimony of being freed from abusive relationships, and she was telling such a beautiful testimony, and such a great story, and then she said, and just so you guys know, I have problems with sexuality, not knowing what my testimony was.

And she said, and I was set free from that about a few years ago, and then I went to her, without even, like, having her know, and I just said, hey, I struggle similarly with this problem, what can I do?

How can I be released from this so I can be a part of my testimony so I can free others from it? She sat me down, it was great, and I was like, hey, I struggle with this thing, and I feel like I need to tell you, and she said she struggled with sexuality, and I cried the whole experience, but she has yet to struggle with it since.

Okay, so, for those who could hear, I know there was a lot of room noise, and it sounded like there was a baby by you when you were recording that, but I think everyone could hear that that was a testimony to being delivered, in some sense, from a sexual confusion.

Testimonies Without Christ at the Center

Pastor Doris, what do you make of that?

Well, I mean, I'm thrilled that she feels like she's liberated from whatever those things are. What you don't see in that video is moments before an admonition by one of the professors who's up there speaking to make your testimony about Jesus and make it current, make it something that has happened.

Now, not one of the testimonies that we heard were centrally about Jesus. That one, Jesus was not mentioned at any point in that, and one thing that it was true of all of the testimonies that we heard, and again, this is just the two and a half hours that we were there.

I don't know that this is true of the entire thing, but it is representative to me. That wasn't current. That wasn't something that's been happening because revival is happening. She's not been set free by anything.

These are just testimonies that happened to her over a year ago, and every single one of the other testimonies that we heard were like that. It's not relevant to anything that's happening at the actual, the supposed revival that's happening here.

But I would expect if you're going to talk about the power of Christ to set you free from sexual sin, that you would at least mention the name of Jesus, and we didn't hear that. Now, the context of that, I think, is probably Jesus.

I don't imagine she's doing this outside of that, and so I would give her a lot of leeway, but that's fairly typical. Jesus was not exalted in that testimony.

Yeah, I would agree with you. I went online to see if I could just watch some videos as well, and I listened to the first sermon that was preached that apparently kicked this whole thing off, and there's a lot of good things in the sermon.

I didn't see any heresy from what I listened to, but the emphasis was very similar to the testimony that we just played, where people have problems. They're broken. They're hurting, which is true, the effects of sin.

He doesn't say sin, I don't believe. He doesn't talk about hell. He doesn't talk about God's wrath. He doesn't talk about the justification in Christ. He just talks about how some of us are hypocrites, and then when you think he's getting towards that cliff of repentance, he kind of turns around and does this, everyone's hurting, and if you're broken, if you're hurting, then God is with you.

He hears you, and it's very therapeutic. The other videos that I was watching seemed to fit in with that. A lot of singing, repetition, nothing wrong with singing songs, but it seemed like it was just one flavor.

Historically, revivals in biblically have an element of repentance in them. What do you think, Pastor Keeler, about that? Is there something lacking in this, or do you think it's a legitimate revival, but there's elements of maybe watered-down doctrine present?

Sin, Victimhood, and the Need for Repentance

Well, I want to remain hopeful, and I know that the Lord, by His Spirit, can do work with messy means, but I think what we heard in that clip that is common with what's going on here is that sin is something that we are victimized by, rather than something that we have done against God.

And so, if it's depression, it's a spirit of depression that's attacking me. If it's anything else, it's something that has come against me that is hindering me from a closer relationship with God that needs to be prayed away.

Not to get into denominational politics here, but is it people from the university? Is it more word-of-faith type people who are coming from long distances because they heard there was a revival? Are there Reformed people?

What's the makeup of this audience?

I'm just curious. So, there are staff and faculty that are leading it, that are taking us through the transitions of service. I was just in there, and they had a moment where young people, I think today they seem to be focusing on people 25 and under.

That's just the general focus of everything, it seems. They invited young people to come up and read portions of Scripture, and also allowed for exhortations along with that Scripture.

But, I'm sorry, what was the question? Well, I was just wondering the denominational makeup. I know that there are certain flavors of Christianity that are much more, let's say, willing to travel to go to a revival, word-of-faith people in particular.

I think every person that I heard get up and speak was not from Asbury today. In terms of testimonies, yeah. Yeah, there are a lot of people who are here from out of state.

When we were in line, we were in line with a word-of-faith church. And then, one thing I'll add that we're hearing in all the worship leaders, and this may just be something that's true of most charismatic groups, is what's called the territory view of spiritual warfare, as opposed to the truth view.

And the truth view being the biblical view that we're in a spiritual warfare for truth in the hearts and minds of individuals, and where sin is actual sin against the righteous and holy God. Whereas the territory view, as Austin described it, is that sin is something imposed on me, and it's done to me.

So, Austin, I think you were telling me just a minute ago, you heard them casting out the spirit of depression or anxiety, because if you're experiencing depression or anxiety, then that's caused by a territorial spirit that has caused that to happen in your life.

Therefore, you must bind them. You're not being anxious. The spirit upon you is causing you to be anxious, is effectively what happens. Sin is deferred. So, it's not something I repent of. It's something that I have to cast out, or I have to be freed from by Christ.

That's interesting, because that parallels some things I've been focusing on with Tim Keller, because he does that with sin as well. And it's very appealing to postmodern people, and that's why Keller does it.

I want to just address this, because Reformed people especially get a really bad rap. You're a Reformation church, so the rap we get is that we don't actually think the Spirit can move, that we don't believe in miracles or revival, that automatically the skepticism comes right up whenever we hear about the Holy Spirit moving.

I don't want to be that, and I don't think either of you are that. I want to hear—maybe we'll start with you, Jerry. I know, Austin, you said too that you were hopeful about this. But, Jerry, talk about how we should approach this without being too stuffy and skeptical, but at the same time discerning.

The Reformed View of the Holy Spirit and Revival

Yeah. Well, let me dispel that, hopefully, is that I think the Reformed tradition has a very robust and better view of the Holy Spirit. We do not see the Holy Spirit as principally something that I seek for an experience or to have some sort of a buzz, effectively.

I was saved out of the charismatic movement. I was a tongue speaker for 15 years before I put my tongues up against what the Scriptures were teaching in terms of what tongues was and just recognized it was work in my flesh.

So I say that because I want to say this. So for the next three weeks, I have actually been teaching on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, and then this last Sunday, I was teaching on the ministry of the Holy Spirit and listed 26 things that the Holy Spirit does in the believer's life, from convicting them of sin to regenerating them, illuminating the Scriptures to him, teaching him things that if we think about it, we all believe these things, but we need to be reminded of just how robust the work of the Holy Spirit is in our life before salvation and after salvation.

And one of the principal things that the Holy Spirit does is that he convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come. That was what Jesus principally said that he was going to do, and that is done in the world.

So when we see revival, we must see repentance. We must see turning away from sin. And that's what I'm concerned about with this is that repentance isn't turning away from sin. Repentance, if there is any, is that I am being freed from some sort of oppressive thing that's the poor life that I've had, the trauma that I've experienced.

That's something that seems very pervasive in this Gen Z and in an even younger generation that's here is that trauma is so big in their life. They all think they have experienced trauma, and that's not to deny that they haven't, because I know many have, but they all think in terms of that, that I have been traumatized.

I'm a victim. And so the gospel has morphed for this particular generation into, let Jesus come and invade your life and save you from your victimization.

That's well said. Pastor Keeler, you were hopeful, you said about this, so I'm not trying to press you to come down on one side or the other, but I'm assuming you agree with what Pastor Doris just said.

With you being there right now, I mean, what's the hope that you have? I mean, if you're not seeing a lot of, in the way of repentance, and in fact, I'm ignorant about this. I don't know if they're doing any baptisms or if there's any...

I don't think so at this point. Okay. Is your hope then that it would transition more to that?

Biblical Revival in Jonah and Acts 19

Well, I think that coming into this place yesterday, I had concerns and I had things I was encouraged about. So I was concerned that Todd Bentley was allowed to come in, who is just an awful, awful, dangerous, false teacher, and he was allowed to come in and worship.

I had concerns because we were receiving reports from people who have been there that the gospel was not being presented with any clarity, with any weight. And so what I would hope to see is the Word of God being made much of, the Word of God being revered, the Word of God being preached robustly.

Yesterday, we didn't hear any of that. Today, as I said, there has been some scripture reading, and honestly, even the song selection today was better. There were gospel elements in the songs that were being sung, and I gave you some of the order of worship earlier that they were going through.

But even in the midst of that, people were asked to stand up and confess that they've been striving to bear fruit instead of being attached to the vine. And then the leader there, who was the guy who preached the sermon that kicked all this off, just included, and if you're embarrassed to stand, if you're a pastor, a leader, and you're embarrassed to stand, I cast out the spirit of embarrassment in Jesus' name.

And so there's a lot of that kind of thing being mixed into the testimonies, the singing. But my hope would be that the Word of God would be revered.

Is there a prayer going on, like a public prayer, a corporate prayer?

I am sure that there is. I think that's sprinkled in there.

Okay. That's one of the things I know Leonard Ravenhill talked about, prayer being the foundation for these moves of the Holy Spirit when they happen. And thinking back through history, whether it's the Welsh Revival or the Great Awakening, the First Great Awakening, it seems like what, and this isn't biblical, I'm just saying historically, what happens is that there is a conviction that takes hold of people.

And it starts in the church. And it's one of the things that's interesting to me about this is it's starting in not a church, it's a chapel for a seminary, right? So generally, revival starts in the church and then works its way outward.

And people are on their face, I mean, afraid, you know, the fear of the Lord and then the love of the Lord overtakes them as they realize they're forgiven of their sin. And this is the reaction you see to like Jonathan Edwards' sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

I mean, he apparently just read that straight faced. That's at least the legend. And without any inflection, people were fearful that they were going to endure God's wrath, that they didn't have Christ.

And this sermon was contrasted so much with that. It's more, it's man-centered more so. And so that's the historical, but I'd like to hear maybe the biblical, either of you. I mean, what do you think the Bible would tell us a revival is?

So when we see it, we know what it is.

There are two good examples. One is obviously the book of Jonah. And then you also have chapter 19 of the book of Acts. In Jonah, you have him preaching the word of the Lord. It's not a long message. It's simply yet 40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed.

And God brings about repentance. You see the entire city come under conviction and take on sackcloth and ashes. Then you have the picture in Acts. There's actually a couple of them, but I'll just focus on the one where in chapter 19, where the preaching of the gospel is done and then people are burning their books.

So there's this massive public repentance of, I think it says 50 ,000 pieces of silver were a worth of books were put away. So there's going to be public repentance. It's not going to be just, it's not psychosomatic repentance or healings from trauma.

It's going to be something tangible. Something you just said, I want to go back to, but in terms of prayer, there is prayer that's happening. There is a lot of prayer. It centers around prayer, but it's not.

It's prayer that I had some discomfort engaging in because it's all centered around the territory view where you've got to cast out this or that. And you hit on something I also want to mention is that they're struggling with this tension between being a chapel for the school system there and also being a church.

So one of the professors, as he stands up there, he says, you know, he's wanting us to be healed. We've all had to, if people were to stand up, if they had any kind of healing issues and they wanted to be healed.

And then he says, you know, the scriptures teach us that if you are sick, you're to go to your elders and they're going to anoint you with oil. And then the prayer and faith is going to heal you. And then he says that he caught himself realizing that he can't do any of that.

And so he says, but we're just going to have the person next to you is going to lay their hands on you. And they're going to pray that you would receive healing. So they're struggling under the tension of even where they're at.

Can they baptize? Can they do any of those kinds of things? They don't have the authority to do those things. Wow.

That's a good point. And I haven't heard anyone else bring that out, that this isn't technically a church. So is it a church like on Sunday and then it's a chapel the rest of the week, or it's only a chapel?

It's a chapel. Gotcha. Other thoughts that you have that have come to mind that you want to share, because I could probably ask you questions all day and we could talk about this, but you were there.

Yeah. Well, just to go back, I was disappointed that they did not end this on Saturday or Saturday night and say, everybody go to your local church. No way. You know, that didn't happen. And so I wish that it had.

Yeah. I mean, there's... So during services, they were still going in the chapel? That's my understanding, yes. Huh. Okay. Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, one of the things that marks revivals of the past is it reorients people, even politically, I mean, in very deep social ways.

Some people, historians say that we wouldn't have had an American War for Independence if there wasn't a First Great Awakening. I mean, it's that level of bars shutting down, right? We wouldn't have strip clubs open anymore.

There would be more responsibility. Things would look cleaner. It just has such an effect on the places that experience it. And that, to me, would be the evidence. If this is a true revival, then we're going to see that, right?

And we're going to see an immediate effect, but we're also going to see years down the line an effect that more people are in the churches on Sunday morning. So I haven't seen evidence of any of that yet.

And I know this is kind of early, perhaps, but yeah.

Or you might see the school itself abandoning prior positions on egalitarianism, on critical theory, LGBT issues that they're wrestling with right now. There would be some unified repentance from a school system.

This is the issue of abortion in the state of Kentucky. You would have some changes that were happening. But anyways, I don't want to put too much on it because this is it. Let's be fair to this. There are some good testimonies coming from this.

I have a young friend who was asking me earlier this week about going once he heard that Todd Bentley, he ended up going twice to this. And the Lord has helped him to see sin in his life. And he has confessed it.

He just wrote a testimony on my own Facebook here. And so I'm encouraged by that. But what I recognize about him is that he has a solid foundation theologically as he goes to this. And so he is connecting theological dots with truth that he knows and so that he's going to have a different experience from this.

So that's what I would say there.

Gospel Clarity, Subjective Experience, and Extra-Biblical Revelation

Yeah, go ahead. I can piggyback off that, Jerry. I have no doubt, actually, that God is going to do good work among His people at an event like this. So I don't want to disparage the whole thing or condemn the whole thing in any way like that.

But what I have noticed is several things from being here and from my interactions with people online. The first and obvious one that we have touched on, that people don't seem to know what the gospel is exactly.

There isn't much gospel clarity. And so I pointed out in a video that this is the gospel of trauma healing, that this is the gospel of you have experienced hurt and pain and trauma. And Jesus loves you right where you're at, right where you are.

Jesus is healing wounded hearts. That's the gospel. If I could quote somebody from yesterday, the gospel is that your parts are not the point. The hard parts of your life or the difficult parts of your life that you tend to identify with are not the point.

The point is Jesus, and that's the gospel. That's concerning, right? That there is no gospel clarity. And the pushback that I received after pointing that out included a few things. One, many people expressing that because this is a gathering of believers, because revival is for believers, they'd say they don't need the gospel.

I've had many dozens of and more people say that the gospel isn't needed for believers. The gospel is for the lost, which really makes you question one's understanding of the gospel. I'm a believer. I definitely need the gospel.

I need the gospel every day of my life. I need to preach it to myself every day. I need it every Sunday morning. I need it in every sermon that I hear from the pulpit. Another thing that I take from it is that people are discerning the validity of this movement as a move of God based upon how they feel the Spirit.

They're testing it by how they personally, subjectively feel the Spirit. I've had people say to me, lots of people say to me, that not even being at Asbury, but watching it through the live stream, this is a move of God.

I watched it on the live stream, and I felt the Spirit. And so they're measuring God's presence, God's blessing based upon how they feel internally. And then, of course, when you point out any of the shenanigans, you might say, charismatic leaning sorts of things that are happening during these services.

Like yesterday, when the worship leader asked me to lay my hands on the person next to me and impart dreams and visions to them, I got a little bit uncomfortable. And when you point those things out, the pushback is, you're putting God in a box.

Who are you to say how the Spirit moves? And the answer is, well, God's given us a box. It's called the Scripture, and we aren't to go beyond that. But unfortunately, it does seem like cries for extra biblical, special revelation have been much of the focus of these services.

How far are people coming from?

Did you meet people from, like, California? Or, I mean, how far?

I think the furthest I've heard is, like, Montana. Montana.

Rubberneck Revival and the Limits of a Chapel Event

Is it possible, you think, to categorize this, then, as something that could be positive, but we wouldn't, at this point, put it in the category of revival? That this is a, I don't know what you would call it if it's not revival, but a sustained worship service that people are attracted to?

So Asbury has a history of trying to do this, as you've talked to other students that have gone there. So just so we know, everybody knows, we are an hour away from Asbury. We have church members who are students, or have been students at Asbury.

And then I know quite a few others. Austin has family members that are from Asbury. So it's a school that we're integrated with. There's a history of this elongated service, and then trying to drum it up into being a revival.

I have no doubt that people genuinely responded to the initial message, wanted to linger in the presence of the Lord, be prayed for. And then I think it's been co-opted now. What maybe started organically, and maybe was kind of the culture of Asbury, was immediately announced on social media that revival has broken out, and then videos are starting to show.

And now, if I could coin a new phrase, I think we have a rubberneck revival, where people are coming to see what is happening. And so they're not being drawn by the Holy Spirit. There are some that feel like they have to go to a specific location in order to experience God.

I was hoping you'd tell me whether it was in the mountain or in Jerusalem where we should worship, right? Yeah, exactly.

We know the truth is that we can worship Him wherever. We can repent of our sins right where we are. But I think what we're seeing is a rubberneck revival at this point. It may have started well, and God is going to use it.

I believe that, hey, anytime there's reading the Scriptures or there's this kind of gathering, God is going to meet them, and He's going to bring about repentance. And I'm for that. I want that. I hope that other students and other schools elsewhere, they are broken in repentance, but I hope it's real repentance.

Yeah, I'm sure there's... Oh, go ahead.

There are sincere people genuinely worshiping the Lord. 100%.

Yeah, and I would hope and I would assume that there's going to be some real conversion experiences that come out of this of people who maybe were curious, saw it on social media, showed up, and then someone explained to them enough of the true gospel that the Holy Spirit did a work there.

So yeah, I'm in the same boat. I don't want to discount all of it. But I want to be careful of saying that this is like the revivals of the past, or like the biblical revival, and withhold that, for now at least.

Seeking God's Presence in Church, Word, and Prayer

Advice that either of you have for Christians who might attend there. I don't know, I have someone in particular I'm thinking of who, it's kind of like the hurricane watchers or the tornado watchers. When they hear on the news that there's a storm, they rush to it, right?

So I know someone like that. When they hear revival, and there's been many so-called revivals at least over the last two decades, they're in their car. They're rushing there because I think what you said, Pastor Doris, they want to be in the presence of God, which is a very legitimate desire.

But what advice do you have for people who have that desire, and they're driving to Asbury? What would you tell them if they want to be in the presence of God?

Well, I would have them go to church and seek that. They would fall on their face where they're at, that the Lord will meet them there. We do not need to be in a specific location to experience the work of the Spirit in our life.

Get in the Word. Seek Him in the Word. Go before your elders. Ask them. Call your elders to pray for you if you're spiritually dry. These are things that happen regularly at Reformation Church. I'll be honest with you.

We feel like revival is happening in a Reformation Church because lives are being changed. We have baptisms this weekend. We have people that are confessing sin and are turning away from sin. We have people that have new desire for the Word.

So I would encourage you to stay home, but if you go, I can tell you where to park, but it's a show at this point.

Yeah, I hear you. Is it hard to find parking with everyone who's there? I mean, the chapel looks flooded in the videos I see. I found parking pretty easily. Yeah, I guess it ranges depending on what time of day, because my understanding is they're going through the night as well.

Yeah, I think they are. I saw a clip that they announced that at 1am in the morning, they're going to shut it down and resume at, I think he said, noon the next day. I think someone reported that that announcement was given.

The professors are getting tired.

They're, I mean, I would assume that that's, they got to clean it at some point. There's probably those kinds of concerns.

I would add this, the staff at Asbury, like the ushers, they've got a very nice system in place. They really are caring for people. If you're sitting there, they're going to bring you water or even food if you need it.

They're very generous. There's people giving away free food there. There's, I'm encouraged by those kind of things that I see the body of Christ wanting to minister to other Christians that are coming into town.

I was encouraged by those things. Yeah.

LGBT Acceptance, Sin, and the Need for Gospel Preaching

All right, well, last, maybe we'll land the plane on this. Last thing I wanted to bring up, Pastor Doris, you posted a video on your Facebook page of someone. I don't know if you saw them there or if you just found this online, who had apparently talked to three queer people in attendance and was very hopeful that this revival was going to change the church's opinion on CRT and LGBT acceptance.

I thought that was interesting that he could get that impression from the event, which if that is pervasive, it's obviously there's a problem, but it sounds like that's just the opinion of a few. I mean, you didn't see anything that was softening to those sins, I'm assuming, right?

Well, if there's no preaching of the law and no true call to repentance, no identification of sin, you're going to feel pretty comfortable in that environment. I think that's why they would feel comfortable is that they're not called to confess that pursuing a sexual identity outside of the biological sex that God has given you is actually sin and that you're in rebellion to your creator.

So they're not going to hear that. They're going to hear that you were born this way or that this has been imposed on you by your environment. As that girl said in her testimony, I was believing lies.

Lies were being spoken to me and now those have been released. It wasn't her sinning against God by entertaining those thoughts. So I can see where the LGBT community would feel accepted or okay. And obviously, as Christians, the LGBT community is welcome to come in my church and sit and hear the preaching of the word of God.

Just as much as an adulterer, a thief, any other sinner that has an identified sin can sit in the congregation. We would never say, well, you're a certain kind of sinner. You cannot come here. You're going to fall under, hopefully, the conviction of the Holy Spirit and be confronted or talked to by other people that have been freed from those particular sins.

Even in our church, we have those that come from that type of a background, but that's who they were. That's not who they are. And so, yeah, I can see where they might. But we also keep in mind, we don't know who this guy is.

We don't know if what he's saying is actually truthful or not. But he does claim that there are LGBT people that are openly LGBT at Asbury that feel comfortable and that there was a specific time identified by them, which was midnight to three o 'clock in the morning, where the LGBT was specifically welcome to come and be prayed for.