Preparing to Visit an Islamic Presentation

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Preparing to Visit an Islamic Presentation and the Qur'an as Final Revelation

And welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon big day out in the political landscape. I'm not even gonna say a word about If that but hey, I tell you interesting stuff. Actually I'm sort of looking over here at the phone thing and I thought somebody was calling today.

Remember this morning got a phone call and someone said they were gonna be calling in at the beginning of the program. Remember. And I'm all queued up with stuff to talk about in response to the person's question and there's no person on the phone line.

So I'm not sure I guess I'll sort of go with. You're completely lost as to what I'm talking about, aren't you? Rich that was really not that long ago and I'm normally one who does the absent-minded thing and he talked to you.

And he's going to a Muslim thing and wanted a good question. There you go. Oh Boy here, I've got some amp right here. You need a.

Little Just hook me up a direct IV line.

There you go a little a little taurine and guarana and ginseng and B vitamins and all that stuff and. Yeah, there we go. Okay. Well, here's here's what the phone call was supposed to be about. I'll just pretend that we have the phone call here but we have had a call from Florida and there's going to be a Islamic Presentation why the Quran is the final revelation of God.

I'm going secondhand on this. Okay, so I'm going from rich. So given that rich couldn't even remember the phone call. I'm not Go with it anyways and So Christian wants to attend and wants to know what question to ask and one of the reasons I found it ironic and useful Was the fact that I've been going back and forth with a Muslim who's outside the United States.

About some of the things that came up in my discussion with another Ahmed. And what I'm discovering, of course, is that? As to be expected Muslims have developed their own forms of apologetics for some of the more so shall we say difficult elements of their Own historical records and if you remember the phone call with another we discussed a little bit concerning a section from sahih al-bukhari those of you who watching on the webcam here is One of the volumes I believe it's eight volumes or is it nine volumes one of two?

It's any other room, but I grabbed the relevant volume from sahih al-bukhari. And this is volume 6 a hadith 4474 to 5062. I have discovered that the the notation system for the hadith is not standardized.

Sometimes this particular hadith in this edition is 4986 in electronic edition I have it was 40 4127. I think I I don't remember but completely different sometimes you have to do searches. It's sometimes very very frustrating to track these things down but you'll recall that we had a discussion about This particular hadith.

Let me let me read it to you. Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Abu Bakr asidic sent for me when the people of your mama had been killed. Ie a number of the prophets companions who fought against Muslim Mussolini.

Moose I Lima. I went to him and found Umar bin al-khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr Then said to me no listen. Here's where we go sometimes. You know what I'm discovering sometimes when you start Mentioning names and because they're not Bob or Bill or Tom but they're Abu Bakr and You mentioned your mama, and they go hey your mama.

It's like okay folks all you're demonstrating. There is that you're from the u .s.. And you think anything outside the u .s.. Is weird. And people just tune out don't tune out. Don't let those things get in the way.

Sometimes that's why people don't read the Old Testament very well comes from the same general area of the world you know what I mean anyway Abu Bakr now Abu Bakr big name okay big big name. Why is that important you'll see a second?

He said to me Umar has come to me and said here casualties were heavy among the qurra of The Quran who are the qurra those who knew the Quran by heart, and I'm just reading from Abukar here now. This does not mean the people who carried around their own personal copy and handwritten form of the Quran these are people who memorized the Quran all right and casualties were heavy among the qurra.

Some sources say Abu Abukar he does not say this, but some sources say 70 had died on the day of the Battle of Yamama and I now here's what Abu Bakr said and this is what I haven't gotten a chance to respond to my Correspondent yet to his last email mainly because all he's doing is cutting and pasting pre-written Stuff to me back anyways, and I'm spending time actually interacting with him, but but Here's what I'm not getting responses to from my Muslim friends.

Here's what Abu Bakr said. I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the qurra on other battlefields whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost a Large part. I look over next to this and there is the Arabic.

And I look at the Arabic and I see the word Kathirun Large one of the first vocabulary words. I learned when I started learning Arabic is Kathirun large and Then we have Mina part of from it sort of uses a partitive type concept.

And then we have the Quran a large part of the Quran might be lost. The hub the hub hmm now How could that be if in point of fact the Quran is that put this point exists in manuscript form? It doesn't make any sense and yet the modern Apologetic that's been developed for this has been well.

No you see It was all written down and all this collation Was just of written sources and they verified things and people had memorized it, but it was all of written sources and Any differences were just pronunciation if it wasn't a big deal etc.

Etc. Because you see the problem They have is when you continue on here You you discover that there is an assertion made and that is that surah 9 128 through 129. According to Zayed bin Thabit and he was one of those who Used to as it says you are wise young man.

And we do not have any suspicions about you and you used to write the divine revelation for Allah's messenger. Then it says at the end. This is what Zayed says he says. And also from what men who knew it by heart till I found the last verse of Surat al-taba repentance with abu kazaima al-ansari and I did not find it with anybody other than him and Again, I've taken the time.

Is there is there something I'm missing in the English? So I've looked at the Arabic the Arabic says exactly what the English says. That Zayed did not find those two ayah Surah 9 128 and 129 the very end of the Quran with anyone but this one source and this is the guy who used to write it down for what was written down anyways for Muhammad he didn't know about it.

He found a way with one person. They're saying no. No, no. What it what it was and they what they do is centuries after this. Generations after this people started going. Yeah, that doesn't sound real good.

That there were sections of the Quran that were only known by one person. Especially when a bunch of people had already died because that leaves open this big door that Might there be stuff that didn't get written down see and we can't have that so These later people start coming up with all these ideas about how well it has to all been written down.

And actually it's it's and and though they started writing these things and that's what's being thrown out. It's all anachronistic. It's all being thrown back at us, but it doesn't explain Abu Bakr's concern.

Why was Abu Bakr concerned? Why would he think that a large part of the Quran could be lost if? Any more of the Qura died because the Qura only had it memorized. It was all written down textually that wouldn't be an issue and that's not what I'm getting any answers to so I noticed that our caller has called now and.

So let's just go ahead and pop poor Mike on who now has the answer to all of his questions. No, he doesn't. Hi Mike, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good. So you're going to a an Islamic.

Sponsored get-together. Tell us about it. Okay, basically what it was a local Imam. Okay.

You started to cut out there just a little bit. Could you repeat the name a little bit more slowly? Yeah.

There's a local fellow here who considers himself a Muslim activist. His name is Muhammad al-dasarni. Okay, and he's the title of an Imam and. And back in 07 and now again in 08 they're doing a public Presentation on Islam.

And it's open to of course Muslims and the public alike and that's for I think seven or eight weeks. Matter of fact, he just sent me the schedule today. And I was late in getting it and he and I were chatting yesterday about it because I had not heard from him.

But at any rate tonight's session is on The Quran. It's entitled God's last revelation. Mm-hmm. And so it's a two-hour session and near the end I can open up the field for questions.

Is it is this at the at the Masjid?

It's at the Islamic Center. Okay. Yep. We have now three of them. We start off with one here locally, but now we're up to three. So we are growing. Yeah, and he in fact he he and I have developed somewhat of a rapport.

Mm-hmm and I'm going very very well. Just trying to get him to set aside some more time so I can have them see those see some of your DVD debates with Malik and Should there you bet? Absolutely, but the big thing that I was trying to key in on.

Obviously as it pertains the question-and-answer session. I think I'm going to have at least one question. Maybe two. I don't know what's going to be covered. But I was wondering if you could help me perhaps design a question Relating to that issue.

Now what I have done just to give you a little bit of background. I have gone through some of Ron Rhodes book. Mm-hmm particularly his chapter on a Christian critique of the Quran and Also a little booklet that you contributed to answering Islam right thoughts together.

But I really want to obviously, you know zero in on something that I will leave them You know long on thought and hopefully provoke a little more. I Guess contemplation and in terms of you know, you know the whole issue of hey really is it?

Well, yeah, and it's It is very very difficult when you are standing in a microphone that someone else controls to get a whole lot said if there is a rapport if you carry yourself with a certain level of Respect you might be able to get more said than you would in another context, but I've been watching a lot of Islamic videos online.

And in fact, if you want to drop drop me a line I could send you the URL to this one that I happen to have queued up on my screen right now and you can take a look at it just to sort of give you a sense of I Would hope that Things would go better in the United States and they went here in India in this particular video that I'll play a section of but the reason I found Your call today to to rich so interesting was I had stumbled across this video this morning and had looked at it.

And you were asking almost identical question and obviously here we have a an Indian Christian asking a question of an imam an Islamic speaker in front of a group about 10 ,000 in this context and the responses Are almost pre-programmed.

Which might mean that this isn't the kind of question you want to ask but it's sort of hard to avoid Some of these specific issues. One of the I was giving some of the background because I'm gonna play this.

And you know the audio works just as well as video. It's just videos more interesting to watch. The gentleman tries to raise the issue of the Uthmanic revision of the Quran and he that's that's Sahih al-Bukhari 6509 through 514 or so 5105 10 of the two Specific ones and those are all available online for anybody who wants to be able to you know have the actual text printed out and things like that all that kind of information is available online my Islamic books marks section has been Exploding recently, but anyway He tries to get the question out.

It's always good to be able to ask your question succinctly. I've noticed that people who don't do that tend to get cut off and then the other guys get to determine how they're going to Answer the question that they decide they're going to assign to you in essence, so he takes a little bit too long but he still gets cut off and the first Half of the answer is just pure rhetoric.

It has nothing to do with what the man was saying at all it was amazing to listen to it. We'll play it and then the answer that actually is given is far far far removed from the truth. It's it's and that's one of the problems when someone else controls the microphone is that their answer may quite simply be Completely fallacious, but there really isn't any way for the person who's just asking the question To actually you know do any type of interaction any redirection any correction anything like that at all and that's sometimes frustrating, but So that might indicate.

This isn't the direction to go. I mean you know before I play this the first thought that I have for you is obviously The if you want to try to leave folks with you know Contemplative as you said if you want to leave them with something to think about.

And I don't know how to succinctly do this, but let's just throw some of these things out the problem the main problem that Muslims have in hearing what we are saying is Contextualizing their relationship to Christianity they I've so many times talked about this when I've responded to Shabir Ali into other people Islamic anachronistic Eisegesis they're looking backwards.

At least 600 years removed from the time of Christ they're looking backwards but they still have these big thick Quranic glasses on and They don't seem to see that that that really is not a rational way of dealing with things if in point of fact the Quran is the If God sent down the Torah, and he sent down the angel and he sends down the Quran then there should be consistency between what we know the Torah was and what we know the angel was and What we know the Quran is.

But they can't they can't establish that and so what they have to try to do is say well in reality the the Torah and the gospel have been corrupted and they've been destroyed and all we have left is is the Quran and so One possible direction to go would be using surah 5 46 to 48.

And establishing the fact that in that text it seems very clear to me that Muhammad is making the argument for his own prophethood based upon him standing in this line of prophets of Moses with the Torah and Jesus the angel and each one of them was Was what this was sent down to them and they were a guarantee a protector of the the truth these things and and now the Final word has come with Muhammad.

Well that presents an idea of consistency and It is the inconsistencies that exist between what is found in the Quran and what is found in the New Testament. That led later generations of Muslims to adopt the idea that the New Testament had been corrupted.

But the problem is once you adopt that now the whole argument for Muhammad's prophethood falls apart as well. Because that's not a part of what's said in surah 5 46 47 48. In fact, we are told to be able to judge on the basis of what God had sent down in the Injil.

If it's gone, we can't do that any longer. And so there are all sorts of issues like that and how to very succinctly By citing the Quran Caused people to think is a bit of a challenge in the situation you're looking at.

But anyway, let me let me at least play this this Encounter here and you'll you'll see I'll probably have to start and stop because I can't possibly let it go on without challenging some Things are being said, but hopefully you'll be able to hear this clearly as well I'm sure rich will do what he can to make sure that it's clear to you.

But let's let's listen to this this clip. My name is Ravinder. I am working as a marketing executive. Brother insulting is very easy brother, but With love you should tell the truth that is the teaching of the Bible.

My question is. You know very well Bukhari sahih value number six or this number five hundred and nine and five hundred and ten there who they for came to Uthman he says to the Uthman Oh chief of the believers Save this nation before they differ about the Quran then.

So actually who they for saw the people of Shama that is a Syrian people and the Iraq people Reciting the Quran in different ways. Then he comes to the Uthman then he says then Uthman Sent a letter to Hafsa the original copy of the Mohammed's Quran with Hafsa and He brought many other people who who can make it short.

I know what you're going to ask. Please make your question short. My question is if The problem is only with pronunciation on the recitation. What is the necessity to rewrite the Quran number one number two if already written material?

That is Quran is correct. Why they were burnt out. If they burnt out it means the problem was with the material but not the recitation.

Now, let me just stop right there. This is 510 In my particular edition here. See, what's the specific? Right here is number 49 87 and Uthman ordered that gentlemen copy the original manuscript perfectly.

There is a difference of readings in regards to the Quraishi tribe. They did so and when they had written many copies Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied in order that all the other chronic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies be Burnt and this is this is actually a separate Story from the original Collation of materials that I was reading from earlier.

That's 509 and then the burning of those materials is 510. So he's basically asking the question because the standard response is well, it was just a matter of pronunciation. People were pronouncing things differently.

That's all it was. It had nothing to do with the actual Consonantal text of the Quran it was just pronunciations and as he's pointing out Well, why rewrite it if it's pronunciate if it's an issue of pronunciation because the original the the earliest manuscripts we have do not have Vowel markings in them so that wouldn't have fixed the pronunciation anyways.

And in fact, there are seven different ways according to the Hadith that you could even read The Quran and then later people said actually there's seven different ways of each of the sevens. There's 49 and and all the rest of these things and there's all these different ways of reading it because it's just a consonantal text.

Just like the Hebrew Old Testament was as far as consonants, but not providing the vowels. And so that's the the question that he has answered now.

Here's going to be the response given and moreover according to book I say he value six. Thank you very much. No here just you are voting to not one next. No no no. Five hundred and fourteen, okay? Yeah, mama says.

Quran is revealed in seven different ways of recitation. According to this with man has did wrong who have given the authority to with man to do that.

Now that was actually a good question there too is he points out the seven different ways and he says who gives the authority to us man. Because if Muhammad is the last the prophets you have a real hard time coming up with the idea of somebody being inspired after him to do.

Shall we say an inspired recension in essence? But now the response that is given is quite interesting.

Brother has asked a question and He said insulting is easy, and you think you are respecting. See giving those statements boss. It's very easy. Don't give those statements. Ask your question directly.

A debate means an argument. Everything as long as it doesn't contradict Quran and hadith as long as it doesn't contradict the Constitution of India. There is no problem, so if you come don't insult. I feel insulted when somebody says Quran is it has been burned.

It is interpolated, so should I cry with you now? You said the message of the Bible is peace now.

First why he says should I be insulted he says I mean I am offended when someone says that parts of the Quran were burnt. Well, it's your books and say it brother. You know I mean come on. I'm not sure why they're you know.

These days what what Muslims will be offended by is is very broad indeed as some people call the the religion of perpetual outrage because They're just they're looking for a reason to be offended. It truly is amazing, but then now watch this watch this complete red herring watch this Straw man jump up here.

You said the Christianity was a religion of peace. I didn't hear him say that. He never said anything about it all but throw it out there and now listen to this.

The Gospel of Matthew chapter number 10 verse number 34. Do you know about it? Gospel of Matthew chapter number 10 verse number 34. See the Christians believe Jesus Christ my peace be upon him to be very peace loving he said.

I have come to love Peace that is the message in the Bible in the direct speech of Jesus. Gospel of Matthew chapter number 10 verse number 34. Christ says. Think not that I am come to spread peace on earth.

I'm not come to spread peace, but a sword. See. I was respecting. I didn't insult I didn't quote it till now, but now when you're Alex the way you did it. I have to enforced and.

That's all he says. He doesn't give a context. He doesn't explain what Jesus is talking about there. What is the sword. It is the division between family members between those who accept the gospel and those who do not?

Because those who do not will hate the gospel. But you know he just throws that one out there for and it only gets worse from there.

I say the Gospel of Luke chapter 19 verse number 27 Whoever does not believe in me bring him in front of me slay him kill him. Allah said in the Quran La ikra hafidh deen there is no compulsion in religion if he doesn't believe no problem.

La kum deena kum waliya deen your religion is with you mine is with you.

Now it amazes me that people are clapping at that because there has to be enough people in that audience Who actually know the Quran they understand issues such as abrogation? To see right through this rather fallacious response.

First of all look 1927 is the end of a long parable where there had been Servants who wrote to their king when he left and said we no longer want you to reign over us at the end of the story Luke 1927.

But these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them bring them here and slay them in my presence. This is the king speaking talking about God's judgment on the people of Israel. This little thing of context doesn't really seem to Help these folks at all.

And then it's whenever you hear somebody going to surah 2. There's no compulsion in religion without then balancing that With for example surah 9 Which it came much later. It's the last of the surahs.

Surah 9 29 fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day nor hold that forbidden. Which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostles nor acknowledge the religion of truth. Even if they are of the people of the book until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued or humiliated that comes later.

Surah 2 is earlier. Surah 9's about the last one and almost last one and that's much more representative of Islam. So and so it's amazing a type of response is given here and evidently by people. Giving the responses because they know that they cannot be contradicted within this context.

But still they would have to know what the people sitting the audience would know the Quran well enough to see through them.

I will not slay you coming to your main question. He has quoted a common Christian allegation That at the time of Usman Razi allahu ta 'ala and who and he quoted ahadith from say Bukhari you said that if recitation is the problem Why did Usman Razi allahu ta 'ala burn the copies of the Quran?

Now when you see this you will notice that there was an edit there. You can hear it in the soundtrack just barely. I don't know if he gave the wrong wrong. Reference to sahih al-bukhari, I can't tell.

They switched to an audience shot, so you couldn't see him. But there's a clear edit there. And I I'm sorry. But I can't give the guy the benefit of the doubt given what he just did in misrepresenting the text of the Quran.

Brother the history of it is After the demise of Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam there was a battle fought In that battle at the time of Abu Bakr Siddiq Razi allahu ta 'ala and who may Allah be pleased with him in that battle 70 who father Quran Memorizers of the Quran they were martyred they were killed in that battle.

Omar Ibn Khattab of Proposes a suggestion to Abu Bakr Siddiq, and he says yeah, I'm in more meaning. Oh you leader of the believers. Let us bring all the copies on which the Sahaba the companions of the Prophet used to write it down when the Prophet spoke it to them and Let us put it in one place as a compilation.

Now.

He says what he's done. Here is he is inserted the idea that These people had written it down. Let's bring all this together and put it in one location. That's not what Bukhari said and that is not consistent with what Bukhari says.

Because Bukhari says it was the Qura those who had memorized not written down but memorized the Quran who died and Abu Bakr was afraid that if more of them died a large portion of the Quran would be lost.

Now what he's presenting. You might find people way down the road someplace developing these ideas. But this is called reading stuff back into history. To save yourself the embarrassment of having to admit that this is the earliest mechanism by which the Quran was gathered.

But he's presenting it as if it is history on an equal level. And it just isn't. And.

This work of compilation collecting all the copies. How was it written down at that time? There was no printing press at That time. There were no papers like we have a four size a three size. How was it written down on parches on the bones of the hips of the camels?

It was written down. What Abu Bakr Siddiq did is he asked them to collect all that material and bring it in one place. Once it was brought to him. What Abu Bakr did is he made an official copy of it and said let it be preserved with Hafsa.

Now according to Sahih al-Bukhari. It wasn't just written material. It was memorized material and since it was memorized material to ayah of surah 9 once 128 129 were found with one person and It seems very clearly in the memory of that one person.

Oh you have to read into it. No, no, no, no, he had it written down someplace. No. It was in his memory. Nobody else remembered it now later. There is a reference to surah 33 Where there is a reference I used to hear Allah's Apostle recite this.

Someone then remembered that but they even missed something in the first Of putting this stuff together. They they that what was put together even then was not the final edition of the Quran. All of this points to the fact That there are meaningful Proper questions that need to be asked concerning this particular methodology of gathering this stuff together.

It was preserved with Hafsa. You need to know a little of Islamic history. It's not your problem. That is what you have been taught all these years in the churches or wherever you learned it from whatever books you learned it.

If you read the Islamic history the history that goes on to the second video at this point. And I were already halfway through the program and haven't even gotten to suggestions for your questions, but that kind of response It seems to me that in many of these contexts now I'm actually looking at the freeze frame here, and there's there is about 10 ,000 people there.

That kind of response Is really meant to protect your own and to and to promote your interest. It's not really a truthful response and unless There was some reason why I think there was a Christian here Couldn't respond to this in a meaningful fashion, and I suppose that does happen unfortunately I really don't understand the the the mindset that goes into that kind of Reply being given to people, but it is what I am hearing like I said, I'm corresponding with a fellow and The first thing he writes to me is I would like to write to you and talk to you about how you're misrepresenting Islam.

And I go I write back and go what do you mean misrepresenting? Well this this and this and they weren't not a one of them was a misrepresentation. It was a place where they disagree With what we're saying and yet They will very easily mix the category of if you disagree with me You are misrepresenting rather than being able to back up you're saying you're actually misrepresenting what we say and there's a there's a fine line between those two, but there is a line between those two and So I'm not sure what kind of response you you would be getting but anyway so having given you all of that Information which may be much more than you're actually looking for Like I said and since this is this evening Basically, you know if I was given just a brief opportunity like that. I would I would probably I'd go one or two directions since I have spent so much time with the Sahih al-Bukhari at least I would feel comfortable Attempting to to raise the issue and probably asking it within a context that would cut through all of the Pre-made apologetic responses.

Well, they're just gonna repeat them or not. I don't know I have had that happen. Where you just you just it's a pre-memorized speech you just give it and hope hope for the best I guess but My question if I was going to go the historical route would be Abu Bakr said he was afraid that if more of the Qura died in battles shortly this was this was only You know 20 years after Muhammad's death if more of the Qura die in battles that a large portion of the Quran could be lost.

And in that very same Hadith It is said that that two ayah of the Quran or what we would call verses of the Quran Were found in with only one person. If that is the case Isn't there a a major difference between how the Quran Was gathered so that you have to have a tremendous amount of I guess belief in the almost Inspiration of Uthman and the committee that he assigned to do this work.

Whereas in the New Testament because you have multiple authors and here's where you might be able to sort of say something That might get some thought going you said you wanted them to be somewhat contemplative.

Here's how you do it. Here's how you do it. They've been taught this is sort of an aside here, but they've been taught that the fact that you have multiple authors over periods of time. That's the great weakness of the New Testament.

They love to contrast Paul versus you know Matthew or Matthew Mark Luke versus John and so on and so forth. They love to do that kind of stuff and from their perspective. It's a great advantage to have one author.

Minimal amount of time and you've got boom put on you don't have to worry about Multiple people recording the same stories and having details different and stuff like that see but the problem is that's actually it's great fatal weakness and that is.

The New Testament is written over a period of time from different places when Paul writes letters. He's writing from Rome to Philippi. He's writing to Colossi. The letters are passed around the Lycus River Valley.

He's writing to Titus on Crete and to Timothy and Ephesus and and the Gospels are going all over the place. They're going down to Egypt and they're going up into into Italy into Greece and in other words They're going all over the place.

So that there is no need for a Christian Uthman. There is no need For that kind of revision or us having to trust that Uthman was somehow inspired. Because the copies the New Testament go all over the place right from the beginning now they say well that just means that it could all been incorrupted the problem is and I did do a Video about this about a week and a half ago in response to a Muslim.

It came to our chat channel. The problem is when the New Testament when we start documenting the existence in the New Testament with manuscripts like p46 and p66 and p72 and p75 and so on so forth. Those manuscripts come gather manuscripts from all over you can tell for example p46 collection of all of Paul's writings.

Well that had to come from different places and yet the texts of like the Gospel of John. Coming from different areas and different authors. They read the same and What that proves is if there was this corruption, which I like to talk about.

Where is the evidence for it? Where are the manuscripts that have all the corrupted text in it? If it just doesn't the person who wants to make the argument. That there were these massively different texts is left making an argument out of utter and abject silence without any explanation.