Open Phones on the Third Dividing Line of Coronavirus Week #1

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:04

So just as the program begins,

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I get a tweet. I see a tweet. I got nothing on the screen. I see a tweet Says walking at night listening to dr.

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Oakley 1689's Trinity got it from chirp books My pace falters occasionally and sync with my ponderment

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Which means that I'll get sued next week when they trip over a tree branch and break an arm. That's That's Sort of how that works

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You know speaking of Twitter. I actually I Follow Jonathan Merritt on Twitter And I do it

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Basically so I can keep an eye on what the people that are were once more mainstream have gone off to the left and And He just nine minutes ago tweeted follow bio log offs org, you know by a log us is that you should

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To stay educated on how faith and science can coexist do it right now all caps

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It's never been more important for religious folks to strengthen their confidence in expertise

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Expertise in what exactly not in Scripture. That's for sure. Oh Goodness Yeah, I'll tell you it's

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It's sometimes painful, but I you need to you need to to know you need to know where it is

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Oh And then now now someone just took a picture. Yeah sporting hill elementary school.

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Yeah That's that one was built Wow 27 years ago, and that's not the one

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I went to that. I 1993 I got to visit and it was I got to visit the classrooms that I was in the whole nine yards but they told me then that they were tearing it down that summer and building a new one and they did so Rossmoor is still the same but sporting

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Hill is totally different than it was when I was I was there long long ago anyway, sorry

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Twitter does does that type of thing or once in a while? We're gonna be taking your phone calls today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one a

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Couple of questions from yesterday that I didn't get to real quick Fellow From Oklahoma says

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I was ordained at a word -of -faith Church, and I'm now having doubts about what is going on Would you care to discuss this a certain minister prayed that all

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Corona would go away, but it hasn't yet Are we just too impatient and spoiled? No The word -faith movement is a false religious movement that is fundamentally flawed in its entire understanding of the

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Christian faith It has a a completely flawed grasp of the fact that God is sovereign we are not

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God has a purpose he is accomplishing it and we are given his revealed will which is found primarily in Well, obviously in the scriptures and what the scriptures reveal to us as to how we are to behave and how we were to act how to think

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But we do not have access to his decretive will his secret will which is what he's going to accomplish so for example the the

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Prescriptive will of God is thou shall not kill but the creative will of God Involved the crucifixion of Jesus so we we go with only what

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God has given to us and Then we patiently endure when his will brings us through difficulty trial pain hardship

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And yes, even disease and nobody absolutely positively. Nobody has the Right as a believer to bind coronavirus or anything else

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Coronavirus is a part of God's creation and he's using it for judgment right now And we pray for patience and endurance

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We pray for individuals to be healed but we do not claim it as if there is some type of demand that we can make upon God and So the reason that this certain minister prayed that all

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Corona would go away and it hasn't yet is because there's nowhere in Scripture that That is ever said to be something that Christians are supposed to be doing in the first place

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We pray that God will be merciful but we also recognize that there are times when

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God's Judgment comes upon a people and I'll guarantee you one thing and this is just an observation doesn't have much to do with the question

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The more Things happen in the world the more

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I realize that when Christian leaders address these things to remember a

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Lot of people don't do you remember 20 years ago? Not quite fully 20 years ago when 9 -11 happened

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There was a lot of discussion of God's judgment There's I've heard almost no discussion from anybody of what

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God's judgment would even look like today One of my fellow pastors

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Yesterday or day for posted something on his Facebook page about this is what judgment looks like when we murder the innocent and The the response is like whoa.

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Why well, how do you know that? Give me chapter and verse hat, you know And you know, I stepped in and asked the one fellow that was, you know, sort of going after him

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I said well, do you think God's in control of all this stuff? Do you think he didn't didn't realize this was gonna happen?

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If you again if you believe that there is a divine decree you take a completely

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Any belief in divine decree makes all of Christianity God -centered Word faith movement everything else is all man -centered you may you may give

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God a big part But still man still in charge no matter what you do No, what you do if God doesn't have a purpose that he is accomplishing and I don't mean some vague

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Well, I'm gonna create then I'm gonna get to this point somehow some way but you know It's gonna go pretty crazy in between I'm not talking about that You've got man -centeredness and God -centeredness.

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That's just how it works out. So Anyway So in answer to the question my suggestion to you would be to leave the word faith movement and embrace a solid

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Orthodox understanding of God's sovereignty over man's man's affairs. So I hope that that will be helpful to you

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Second question real quick were any of the New Testament Gospels written after the fall of Jerusalem. Well, that's the big that's the big debate

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If you read the vast majority of Commentaries written today

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They will date You know if they're being really Conservative they'll they'll date mark probably prior to the fall and then they'll

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Put Matthew and Luke around that time or afterwards and John long afterwards

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Obviously it was very common in the 19th century to have John as late as 150s and 170s

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We do not have dates for the New Testament any of the New Testament books we we can get closer with some of Paul's writings because he mentions specific people and we know when certain events took place and so we can actually get a little bit closer in dating

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Paul's writings, but The Gospels are meant for wide distribution and so you don't have the same kind of greet this person greet that person type of a situation

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So we don't have dates we do not know the order in which they are written It is common if you go to most

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Bible colleges and seminaries to be taught mark in priority that mark is the first and Matthew and Luke used him and edited him and changed him and contradicted him and John was just off doing his own thing

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So it would go mark then Matthew Luke somewhere in between and then John There are lots of reasons to question that as well

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That I won't get into today. I've discussed some of these things that years and years ago when I did the synoptic gospel studies

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But I'm not sure those early I don't think those earlier ones are available and anything other than cassette tape, which I don't think you can get hold of anymore anyway

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However, there are good reasons to believe that all the Gospels were written prior to 80 70

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Minimally that Matthew Mark and Luke were there is so much in Matthew Mark and Luke especially in regards to all of it discourse and things like that That if there if it was written post 70 would have been written

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I think differently But Then there's there's like I said, there's there's good argument that John is as well though It's common for people to date

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John. I certainly I was taught that John is mid to late 90s the world doesn't end if he is but there's there's

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Arguments pre 70 for for everything Can you prove any of that as far as you know, like in a debate what

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I would I take a debate that all the Gospels are written Before the structure do some no But what is important to keep in mind is that when you buy those commentaries at the

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Christian bookstore There are again turn that we used a lot last time presuppositions on the part of those who are writing those commentaries and I think one of the places where Christians struggle is

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Very often the presuppositions that are found in material such as that do not

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Get transferred into The pulpit and into teaching in that way.

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And so sometimes our people are just not even They're just completely lost because they start reading something

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It does not make sense to them because they don't have the background to know, you know This all this author assumes this so this author is definitely assuming this order of the

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Gospels And and so that's where this comes from and the stuff like that So we're in the

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New Testament Gospels written after follow Jerusalem possibly and possibly not It's it's hard to say.

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We're not we're not we're not certain. Okay Let's see here. I guess we're sort of starting to top and going straight down.

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All right Let's talk to Casey. Hi Casey Yes, I can

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Hello Yes, I can So I'm neither

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Protestant nor Roman Catholic however I've been watching your debates and I'm pretty convinced that the early church did in effect believe in the sufficiency and supremacy of Scripture And their doctrines such as the papacy the bodily assumption

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And the Immaculate Conception were not taught in the early church However, I am aware that such doctrines such as you know, like the perpetual virginity and to this list of Mary Although being a development over time

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We're still believed by church fathers who believed in the sufficiency and supremacy of Scripture.

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So Considering the fact that they never said that those doctrines were deduced independently from Scripture Nor did they ever make reference to another source of revelation?

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Would you say that they deduced it like from Scripture by like bad exegesis and things like that?

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No, sort of like the word faith movement. I mean things become popular And especially in the early church.

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You have a tremendous influence from The culture around them and so for example,

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I forgot I was gonna do a little discussion about this book today Um Well, I was and and one of the the issues the book that I'm talking about here is is dealing with is the influence of Greek thought various religious movements of that day upon early writers

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So we know that Justin Martyr he was influenced by certain forms of Greek philosophy

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Tertullian eventually joined a ascetic type group called the

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Montanists and so we know there are groups like that out there and Sometimes we know exactly what the influences were upon a particular writer.

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Sometimes we do not sometimes we can sort of guess at it Sometimes it's a mixture of things and so Someone can believe in the unique authority of Scripture and Still have a very thick lens.

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So, you know, a lot of people are familiar with the Dialogue discussion actually is an interview that I did with the late

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Dave Hunt back in the year 2000 as I recall and my

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Statement to him at one point during our conversation He had responded to me about something about John chapter 6 and instead of giving me an exegetical response

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Something was based upon the text He gave me Something that really wasn't connected the test text at all.

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And my response to him was Dave. That's just your traditions and His response to me was James. I have no traditions

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Now when someone says they have no traditions what that means is their traditions have them

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Completely under their control. They're not even aware that they're there and therefore they cannot test them. They cannot look at them and so We have the advantage in in our day with as much communication as we have to have others challenge us when we

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Give evidence that our traditions are getting in the way of our exegesis of Scripture You didn't have quite as much of that opportunity in in the ancient world and You didn't have quite the you know, the library of sound books and especially in the early church

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You have people writing who actually have a limited canon of the New Testament I don't even have all the New Testament books as yet that they're even familiar with and so there's all sorts of reasons why someone might come to a conclusion for example you have the rise in the middle of the second century and really flowering by the middle of third century of monasticism the

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Desert Fathers in Egypt and places like that All the way up into the area regions around Caesarea the the the pillar saints and and the whole development of a monastic movement and that monastic movement was originated from a lot of extra biblical extra

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Christian sources and so once someone who has those concepts in mind encounters the

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Christian scriptures unless there is a you know a real opportunity for being pushed to have balance and to filter and to examine all those presuppositions you

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End up with some weird stuff. I mean, I mean seriously if you know what one of the pillar saints were then you know, these were people that built up these pillars and and lived on the tops of these pillars and Some would get so tall they'd have to have disciples that would that would climb up these pillars and bring them food and take their waist down And you go

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What how do you get that from a balanced reading of the New Testament? We're supposed to be going out into the world and we're supposed to be salt and light and it how do you get that?

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Well You get that by by imbalanced an imbalanced understanding of certain texts that become all in the all -important lens through which everything else is seen and so, you know

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Am I saying that every single one of those people wasn't saved or something? No, I mean, it's really weird to me but I think

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I think you know, they may well have been Christians who once they got to heaven

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God's like Dude, you know what you could have done during that time. I mean, come on, you know so, you know it really

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Church history does give us the opportunity The church ends up struggling with things and issues come up and clarification takes places as a result and so the early church had to struggle with Christological issues the nature of Christ a

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Polynarianism all the rest that type of stuff and As I've pointed out many times didn't really go nearly as in -depth in other areas

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Such as for example eschatology or the atonement or things like that and then up up pops a a great controversy

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Pelagianism which refocuses attention and causes You know a major works to be written and and things like that and frequently what it is is it's a pendulum swing so all of a sudden this big controversy comes up you get a pendulum swing and it may go past a biblical center point to something to the other extreme and But pendulums swing back and eventually you have you have something hopefully more toward the middle

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However what you have in history is a situation where External tradition becomes normative more and more over time and that's why for example unlike some of my

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Baptist forebears I can look at the medieval period and I can see Christians in the medieval period not everybody

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There's a tremendous amount of nominalism Tremendous amount of nominalism, but there are still

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Christians there The church didn't cease to exist. It's it's not you know, we're not

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Joseph Smith and now it's 1830 all as well and so There it does require a level of Grace, I guess to look back and to See these individuals and to see what might have influenced them that helps me to see what might influence me

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There are controversies that I could think are very very important that end up, you know, pushing me one direction or another

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But I'm just thankful that God has always had his people and I am thankful that each generation has had the

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Word of God It's been preserved for us It remains that strong bulwark, but when I if you if you sounds like you're doing your reading anyways, just look at the second

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Nicene Council 8th century And look at the argumentation that was used by the second

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Nicene Council long after the after the original Nicene Council in 325 It was used by the second

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Nicene Council to substantiate the veneration of saints and images compare the biblical the level of biblical literacy and argumentation there 400 years after 325 and you'll be

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I think stunned because there's there's there's a huge change. There's a huge change.

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So yeah, there's Once Especially when it comes to for example something like celibacy

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Mary the things that were deeply associated with the monks Hey, the monasteries and the monks became the primary theological faculty of the church shall we say and so what's really important to them becomes really important during that time period and so the the exaltation of Mary especially such things now

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I'll make one exception there even though it was foundational the perpetual virginity of Mary is first found in clearly

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Gnostic sources Right and so Yeah, that's it.

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That's a real to me a clear example of where you have an external consideration

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That ends up in my opinion when I read even modern Roman Catholic writers attempting to defend that over against the natural

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Language of the New Testament about brothers and sisters Even to the point where in essence you

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I would argue very strongly that the Orthodox understanding the perpetual virginity of Mary since it involves the maintenance of Mary's physical virginity

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Fundamentally means Jesus beamed out of Mary there was no natural birth. I was listening.

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I was listening What was I listen? Oh this morning. I went on a walk this morning and I was looking for material on a specific really really esoteric subject and I had done a search on On the podcast app on on Apple and I start end up end up listening to this

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Roman Catholic priest It was supposed to be talking about the subject that I wanted to get to he never got around it but one of the things that he's somehow got on to was a perpetual

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Virginia Mary and The fact there was no afterbirth. There was no normal any of the normal associated things with with with birth

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And so here's a guy he was talking about Pope Francis So it's been within the past couple of years and it's still the same no natural birth of Jesus So, I mean that I would think that most people would recognize that fundamentally attacks the incarnation the reality of the of the human nature of Jesus, but That's put off to the side because we need to have

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Mary have this particular set of attributes So there's there's a good example where you know,

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Jerome is going to engage in Good exegesis of many passages of Scripture.

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He's very insightful he knows a lot about the original languages and backgrounds and stuff like that, but when it comes to that since he's in a monastery and Since there are certain things that are vitally important in the tradition that he is now living in you can see

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How his exegesis completely changes once he encounters these types of things so It helps us to see when that happens today.

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I mean there are great Brothers and great interpreters and then all of a sudden they'll say something and I just go, huh?

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Where did that come from? And it's it's because of some quirk in their past It's some something that they experienced and still happens and it probably happens to me

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And the problem is you generally don't recognize it when it happens to you But church history helps you to be looking for it.

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So that helpful Yeah, I basically had the same assumptions as well.

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And I just wanted to confirm me. So I really do appreciate your comments Okay. All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you.

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Have a good day. Stay healthy down there. All right Keep hiding

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Hasn't gotten you yet, but it's coming for you Let's talk with Paul down in Alabama.

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Hi Paul Hey, dr. Wright, thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir I'm not exactly sure how to lay out this question.

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So just kind of bear with me a second, but it's pertaining to Genesis chapter 15 verses 17 and 18

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Those Passages in light of New Testament scripture Galatians chapter 3 verses 28 29

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Reference might again in Romans Chapter 9 and I think the book of Hebrews chapter 6 also, could you could you kind of expound upon?

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The nature of those verses in Genesis well That's a that's not really a question that's a sermon request

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Really when when you think about it? Can I give you a

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Immediate exegesis of four different texts of scripture in regards to the nature of covenants No, not on a not on a webcast call -in program

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I can simply point out that what's being referred to here is the fact that in Genesis chapter 15

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You do have a incredible picture provided of what cutting a covenant means and that is in verse 17 it came about when the

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Sun had set that it was very dark and Going out to Most of us today don't know what very dark is.

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We are so rarely in a place that is totally dark that On a sunless on a moonless night

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Wow, let me tell you so you all you got starlight Of course could have been cloudy too. And then it's really dark

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I came about when the Sun had said that was very dark and behold there appeared a smoking oven and a

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Flaming torch which passed between these pieces. So these these pieces

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If we Scroll back verse 9 so I said to him bring me a three -year -old heifer and a three -year -old female goat the three -year -old ram and a turtle dove and a young pigeon

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Then he brought all these to him and cut them in two and laid each half Opposite the other but did not cut the birds birds of prey came down upon the carcasses and Abram drove them away

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Now when the Sun was going down a deep sleep fell upon Abram and behold terror and great darkness fell upon him

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God said to Abram know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land That is not theirs where they will be enslaved and oppressed 400 years by the way for those of you who are open theist

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God was not guessing about this But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve and afterward they will come out with many possessions as for you

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You shall go to your fathers in peace. You'll be buried a good old age then the fourth generation They will return here for the iniquity of the

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Amorite is not yet complete now I'm not gonna stop on that but that's verse 16 is extremely important In regards to well lots of things of theodicy and everything else.

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So that's the context. So you have the the the carcasses have been laid out and They are separated from one another and so now in the darkness a smoking oven a flaming torch passed between the pieces

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So when you talk about cutting a covenant, this is these pieces have been cut these carcasses been cut in half

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So passing between them and on that day Yahweh made a covenant with Abram saying to your descendants

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I have given this land from the River of Egypt as far as the Great River the River Euphrates The Kenite and the

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Kenizzite and the Cadenite and all these other guys I'm not gonna spend my time all the way through the Jebusites. And so this is a picture of a covenant and The issues of the covenants made with Noah Abram who becomes

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Abraham the father of many nations and the Mosaic Covenant and how they

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Relate to one another how they relate to the people of Israel in the land to the driving of the people from the land into captivity and Then how all of this then relates to Jeremiah's discussion in Jeremiah 31 of the new covenant and what the distinctions are is the whole reason that I was supposed to have gotten on a plane this morning and Flown to Moscow, Idaho to have a debate with Doug Wilson this weekend on pato baptism and pato communion because we will have different understandings as to what the relationship between those covenants is

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That in the new covenant and the differences between what applies to the people of Israel What applies to all of those who are of the faith of Abraham by by faith in the same

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God as Abraham? It's a huge huge huge area and given that a large majority of evangelicals in the

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United States Will read Genesis 15 if they read Genesis 15 and Have no concept of of covenant of of what it means of how it's applied

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That that gives you an idea why? those areas of debate and dispute

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Don't get settled very often. In fact, a lot of people don't even know why we're arguing about those types of things now if there was a specific element of Of the

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New Testament fulfillment that I could comment on but I'm not sure because because you were basically asking for a extensive sermon there that you can't you can't do well

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I I think that's a better way to phrase it Maybe an element because I'm looking at this as far as the salvation being monergistic in light of Galatians chapter 3

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Verses 28 29 where it talks about those that are in Christ are heirs

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Are children of the sea and heirs according to the promise of something similar to that?

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so Specifically when it talks about the smoking pot going between the pieces at this particular time in Genesis Was not

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Abraham in a deep sleep, so he didn't actually Walk through the pieces that it was

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God alone that walked through the pieces or am I am I reading that right now? There's no there would be

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It would be correct that God is the one who makes the covenant and God is the one making the promise

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He's he's saying to you. I am Yahweh your God and I am making this covenant It wasn't lay these things out then come to me.

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It was God who passed between in the form of those The flaming torches stuff like that.

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So that's true Right and and as far as Galatians 3 29 if you belong to Christ and you are

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Abraham's descendants heirs according to promise and the the way that you are in Abraham is

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Abraham had faith you have faith and you're accepting those same promises of God and those promises

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Those promises have a full their greatest fulfillment in Christ now, there were there were land promises.

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There were all sorts of people who for example many of the kings of Egypt of kings each kings of Israel bore the covenant signs

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But did not have circumcised hearts And so while their bodies bore the sign they themselves were not part of the the the lemma the the remnant

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There's a lot of discussion of that once you get into the prophets and things like that and so fulfillment motifs and How it's so filled and in what way that's where there's there's entire volumes that you can that you can devour on that very issue and a

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Lot of debates you can listen to as well But could you could you pull me out a book that kind of talks a little bit about that and maybe can make a better connection for me for that being talked about Salvation and a monarchistic.

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I know Salvation is all of y 'all. Well, you're gonna you're gonna run into two things almost everyone who's talking about covenant theology

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Is going to be a monarchist Synergist just don't really discuss it much to be perfectly honest.

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You're not my experience So when you start looking for books on covenant theology, you're gonna get you're gonna get all monarchistic stuff pretty much

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But you're gonna get two different understandings of fulfillment as far as the new covenant is concerned Well a couple well, not just two you're gonna have differences amongst

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Presbyterians primarily and Reformed Anglicans on this type of a subject

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And there's gonna be a spectrum of Viewpoints there there used to be pretty much unanimity amongst

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Reformed Baptists. There isn't any more now There's been a sort of a division there as well in regards to Exactly the relationship of old and new covenant and especially in regards to Abraham but if you look up Well, Sully Dale Gloria publishers will have not necessarily

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Solid ground does just well start with this. Well, so Sully Dale Gloria still exists. I think of their

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Ligonier. I'm not sure Anyway, Ligonier will have books solid ground has books Reformed Baptist academic press our

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BAP has at least Three or four that I can think of up top my head.

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There's specifically on that exact topic Of covenant theology,

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I'll warn you ahead of time Not not many of them are are written in such a way as to Keep you up at night

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Or let's put it this way. If you suffer from insomnia, most of them are written to help you with that, too They can be rather thick

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But the information is there if you want to if you want to dive into it Okay, okay.

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All right. I sure appreciate it. All right. Thanks Paul. Thanks for calling. All right. God bless you. Bye. Bye Matthew New York Matthew Hey, dr.

34:59

White, how are you? Pretty good. Are you in the city or out in the sane part of the state? Oh well

35:06

The saner part let's just put that way. Okay. Okay I just the the city is the city and the rest of you guys

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I I think you ought to secede and at least join. I don't know Pennsylvania something to get just to get away because Otherwise, you're anyway, it's a mess.

35:25

I Agree, I agree. Definitely. It's different world down there Go ahead so a lot of my mind hope

35:32

I can get it out well, so After watching your dialogue with Steven Anderson when he was doing his documentary about the different Bible versions

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There was a topic brought up at the end that kind of led to the end of the discussion regarding Jesus's descent into Hades.

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Mm -hmm and From what I understand of your perspective you were saying that after Jesus's death on the cross

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He descended actually into the world of spirits into Hades which has both a part where there were the believers and then the non -believers kind of like a paradise and like a

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Torment or prison or whatever you want to call it like Luke 16 Yes, yeah, the

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Yes, Lazarus in the Richmond the parable I'm coming from a I used to be Mormon so I'm trying to sort this all out in my head, you know because Mormons believe in the world of the dead with the paradise in prison, right and So I've been studying this topic particularly and then the more

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I dove in the more I got confused because there's a wide range of views as to what happened if Jesus actually did descend into the world of Hades or If as Calvin believed he believed that Jesus kind of descended into the pains of hell on the cross.

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He didn't actually Descend in spirit to the world of Hades, right? there's the Roman Catholic view where they say that he went to the upper part of hell, which is called like the the the limbo of the fathers the the

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Jews and the pagans and then he proclaimed the message to them and If they accepted he would liberate them.

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So I want to kind of understand from your perspective Because it sounds like that you would disagree with Calvin At least slightly because you were expressing that Jesus actually did send into Hades.

37:09

Yeah. Well, and there's lots of stuff I disagree with Calvin about but My understanding and let me just ask are we not taking more calls?

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Okay, I just I just know his first two lines are blank and I'm not doing 25 minutes of each call.

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So we still got almost half an hour there So That that opens up two phone lines, by the way folks at eight seven seven seven five three three, three four one

37:37

My understanding and I am I am not dogmatic about this. It is a it's a very difficult area and I am open to correction but Basing my understanding on the fact that you sort of need to take into consideration all that the

37:54

New Testament teaches We are told that Jesus made

38:00

Proclamation to the spirits that were in prison. I Think it's 2nd Peter if I recall correctly may have been

38:06

Jude, but one of the two very similar books And my understanding is that the the terminate the terminology that's used there leads me to believe that he was

38:17

Proclaiming his victory over them and what they had done because it says they were once disobedient in the days of Noah and so Whatever that means

38:29

What what it doesn't mean is that it is necessary for Jesus to suffer in hell Soteriologically speaking or anything like that.

38:38

I do not believe that there is any suffering on the part of Jesus after his physical death that is somehow necessary for Redemption or anything along those lines.

38:49

I think once he has when he says to tell us die it is finished it was There's nothing more.

38:56

It needs to be done at that particular point in time, but there is this Strange reference to making

39:04

Proclamation to the spirits who were prison who were disobedient days. No, etc, etc. So I'm just trying to leave room for that because There are only well, there just isn't there's almost no discussion as to exactly what the nature of Jesus's activity was between The cross and the resurrection outside of just a couple half sentences or something along those lines and so It wouldn't seem to me to be if we're gonna use the

39:37

Luke 16 Paradigm of Shaul Hades where you have

39:47

Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham So in other words, he he is not suffering.

39:52

He is not being punished whereas the rich man traditionally called divies he is and so there is an anticipation of the final judgment

40:10

That is seen in the separation in Luke 16. Now some people just Don't think

40:16

Luke 16 is relevant because it's supposed to be a parable What out even it was a parable that that still has to be based on something to communicate to the people

40:23

Some type of meaningful truth. So using that as a as a as a paradigm It would seem to me that what's mentioned in regards to the proclamation of those spirits were once disobedient days

40:36

Noah is a very specific group that I don't know would be

40:42

Spatially in either one of the traditional two places maybe the second the lower or whatever but there is a

40:49

All I can see see in that is that there is a proclamation of the fact that his work has been completed and it accomplished what it was supposed to accomplish and there is a

41:01

Announcement to spirits who had attempted to stop that from happening That they have they have been defeated

41:10

Then you have the Somewhat tenuous, but I you know,

41:16

I tend to think it's it's appropriate but you have Jesus leading captivity captive and What would that refer to well it

41:28

The promise of Paul for example is he is torn between two things to be To stay on which is needful for those who are alive or to be to depart and to be with Christ Not to depart and to go into soul sleep, but to depart and to be with Christ.

41:43

I would think that if Paul's idea was that upon death

41:48

He was going to either cease to exist or be unconscious for however long that this would be extremely

41:55

Problematic for him and something he would not want to experience Because of the fact that he is in close personal communion with God.

42:03

He wants to continue that so If that is the case He's not looking to go to be in some

42:12

Hades Shaul context upon death and so what has been suggested by many that seems to fit anyways is that in the resurrection

42:23

Jesus leads captivity captive those who Were in Abraham's bosom are

42:29

Taken into the presence of their Lord Where all who now die in Christ enter into his presence immediately

42:39

Awaiting the final consummation the resurrection of the body. That's always resurrection the body is always there because God made us in that way and So until that happens, it's a it's an unnatural state, but it continues to be a state of fellowship with God and so I Say I say that that's tenuous only because it's sort of a it's a quotation from the

43:03

Old Testament in a poetic context and We're I think we are purposefully not given a lot of information on this subject

43:16

Because we tend to dwell on it too much given how much we've been given already. In other words,

43:22

I I think there is wisdom on the part of the Spirit of God in not giving us

43:31

All the heavenly tourism books Not giving any foundation to those heavenly tourism books

43:37

So we're given certain absolute truths But what fits them all together is not necessarily just laid out for us in a in an easy fashion.

43:47

So But yeah, that's that's my understanding and I realize that there are are others

43:53

I just don't see how they Fit together, especially that assertion to be honest with you.

44:01

My feeling is a lot of theologians and scholars sort of Have a deuterocanon within the

44:12

New Testament and So they look at 2nd Peter and Jude Somewhat askance as maybe not quite as Authoritative and so just don't seem nearly as concerned about providing a place for it and it's teaching

44:31

So that may explain some of it, I've not written a paper on that or something it's just sort of what I've observed

44:37

Over the years, so maybe it has something to do with it. Okay, I Need to want to believe what you've expressed is that Jesus actually did descend into Hades is

44:55

Acts 2 27, which I think is a quotation of Psalm 16 Mm -hmm, or it says for you will not abandon my soul to Hades or let your

45:01

Holy One see corruption and I'm not I'm not a Greek scholar. So could you explain it?

45:07

Would it be an improper interpretation for it to say? When it says you will not abandon my soul to Hades When I read that it seems to me that it's saying that my soul or my spirit

45:16

Which is kind of synonymous a lot of places in Scripture soul with spirit It seems like if you if you're saying you'll not abandon my soul to Hades That means that Jesus the

45:25

Spirit must have descended to Hades or is I hear that I hear ya

45:30

I can't refute that but the As as I think about what

45:37

Peter is saying there is He's seeing a fulfillment in the resurrection of Jesus, which again

45:46

Is exactly what you're saying but I think what the emphasis is is the

45:55

Psalmist says you will not abandon my whole my soul to Hades the

46:00

Jewish understanding of what that would mean when you entered into Hades, that's just simply the realm of the dead and so that is a resurrection fulfillment theme

46:14

That Peter is preaching within a matter of days of The period of time he spent with Jesus being taught by Jesus how all the

46:24

Old Testament prophets from Moses all the way through testify of him and So your application would be a secondary application the primary application is resurrection

46:37

He's going to he's gonna be he's gonna be raised from the realm of the dead Now does that mean that there is the assumption of Going to Hades and then coming out of Hades maybe but I I don't know that's that's the

46:59

It's not the major emphasis. Is that a minor emphasis? I'm not sure I'm not okay that helps to give me some context and Especially when you when

47:08

Peter was speaking to Jews that would have been yeah kind of comforting to them I would imagine to hear that this prophecy had been fulfilled in Jesus's resurrection, right?

47:17

Right. Okay. Okay All right, very much. Stay stay safe out there Yeah, thank you

47:22

All right getting good questions here rolling on along talking to James in Virginia.

47:31

Hi James Hi, dr. White. Thank you for your ministry. It's been a great influence on my life I'll try to keep my question concise.

47:38

Um I've been delving into the nature of the church. The Lord has given me great appreciation for the local church and I'm wondering on I've listened to both of your baptism debates

47:49

I'm wondering looking at the nature of the New Covenant and the New Testament Church I understand that the

47:55

Reformed Baptist position is that only Believers are in the New Covenant. Hence the Covenant signs not given the children

48:01

How is that put together with passages such as John 15? Where it seems to indicate in some sense there are unbelievers

48:10

Somehow connected to Christ that are cut off To me that just seems to fit easier. I guess with the pedo -baptist model

48:17

How are passages like that put together in the Reformed Baptist understanding of all this?

48:23

well if you if you allow Jesus's terminology to define that you not only have the branches

48:33

That do not bear fruit so fruit is always the issue so when Jesus talks about When Jesus talks about the soils the parable of the soils, it's not the parable of the sower it's parable of the soils

48:49

When the sower goes out and he and he spreads the seed you have these different reactions and so I would see a direct parallel between the branches that do not bear fruit and The seed that pops up not the seed in the wayside

49:06

That's just eaten immediately by the birds, but you have two kinds of seed that does pop up you have the rocky soil

49:11

In the shallow soil and so you you both of those shoot up and there's there's growth

49:19

But there's never fruit just as there isn't in in John 15. That to me is the consistent connection between the two and the sowing of the seed

49:29

Doesn't necessarily mean that what you're dealing with is a parable of the church because then you then you have absolutely no way of even dealing with the

49:38

The wayside stuff where there's never any any growth or anything at all so I think that the parable that Jesus tells about the sower is

49:50

Preparing the disciples for the fact that as they go out and sow the seed they're gonna have those people who are going to respond

49:58

With tremendous energy and Especially in our day to be honest with you. We in a secular world where we're

50:05

We're constantly battling to get anybody to even listen to us It's fully understandable how we would become quite excited if we have someone this sprouts up and yes

50:18

I believe and what can I do and I want to follow Jesus and and Everything else and then anyone who's been in ministry for a lengthy period of time knows that sometimes those people are there for a while and then they're just gone and You wonder why and If you haven't taken

50:39

Jesus's words seriously, you can wonder is this me? Was it something that I did? Is there something wrong with my theology of Jesus being a perfect Savior?

50:49

There's all sorts of here. The reality is that Jesus warned us in a number of different analogies that there would be false profession and there would be people who look like but they don't they don't bear fruit and It has to do with the soil and who who prepares soil

51:05

Well, that's that's that's God's business in the same way The only the only branches that bear fruit are those that are connected to the vine and it's the vine that causes the fruit apart

51:15

From me you can do nothing. So both of them are saying the same thing and I don't know, you know

51:22

When Doug and I had the conversation a couple months ago, you know, he likened it to the the

51:31

Reform Baptists have really good security guards outside. The Presbyterians have bouncers

51:39

Well, okay, I get it the fact is Reform Baptists believe that we should have the security guards outside and good bouncers both

51:49

Yeah, because because you need both and the problem is

51:55

That from my understanding and we've got lots of Presbyterian brothers here, but from my understanding and this is what it would have come out this weekend

52:04

Friday or Saturday and we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna reschedule it. I just didn't want to get stuck in Idaho okay, you know,

52:10

I mean nothing against Idaho, but you know my my Daughter and son -in -law are moving down next week or in the week after and there is this a lot of stuff going

52:20

I sort of need to be here with my own church and it just it just wasn't an unfortunate timing But what would have come out

52:28

I think in that conversation and this is why I wanted to do pato communion It's because pato communion more than pato baptism allows us to look at the nature of the ordinance the nature of the sacrament even

52:43

Baptists have used the term sacrament, but Look at the nature of it and its consistency with the

52:51

New Covenant and in essence Especially as we look at pato communion, we can backtrack to pato baptism.

52:59

But as we look at pato communion What the Presbyterian position does is lock the front door open

53:08

By insisting that you give that ordinance pato communion

53:14

To all covenant children which are called covenant children. I'm not Not arguing at this point that use the term covenant though obviously

53:23

I would because I would believe a covenant child is a child in the Covenant and that since God makes the covenant that Marriage doesn't create that but from their perspective offspring of two believers becomes a covenant child

53:39

The problem then means that that means the front door is always open and So what does that say about the nature of the sacraments themselves?

53:49

And is there anything in the New Covenant? especially in regards to the supper that Speaks to the regenerate nature of the person partaking in it

54:02

That person should be regenerate Why what does we have more information

54:09

I'll actually backtrack that we have explicit information as to what is required of the participant in the supper but I think we have actually more information as To what a person should view their baptism as it relates to their repentance and faith and trust in Jesus Christ So that would have come out

54:33

That would have that would have come out But it will eventually I'm trusting

54:40

My wife works for an airline. So I'm trusting that someday we will be able to travel around the world and the country again and Without being shamed for so doing but yeah anyway

54:54

So does that does that help any at all? It does is that perhaps a certain book that you would recommend on the church?

55:00

I'm really digging into that now in my focus well, obviously Okay. Well, I'm Not the best bibliographical generator in the world.

55:11

I just mentioned to the other fellow that Reformed Baptist Academic Press and Solid Ground are both really good

55:20

Sources for the best reformed stuff in that area. I know that I know that our

55:25

BAP put out a book on recovering our covenantal heritage A few years ago.

55:31

I have a couple chapters in there on on the New Covenant, but there are others in there as well

55:37

And Solid Ground is going to give you a bunch of stuff. But again from different different perspectives as well. So That's probably where I'd look

55:45

All right. Okay James as always. Thank you. I'll put in I am one of the reasons the independent Baptist don't like you

55:51

I was raised that way and the Lord has used you to bring me to a much better understanding of Scripture Thank you for your ministry and what

55:58

Lord has allowed you to do Somebody's gonna put a video up by this evening because they've got a lot of extra time to be doing it right now

56:04

See see listen to this caller right here Thanks for your call

56:29

Okay, well look it's it's three you might as well go to 330 can we go to 330 so we can take a few more

56:35

I mean But I mean, let me say before I go to I guess it's who do

56:41

I go to next Lee? Okay before I go to leave before I go to leave I uh,

56:50

I Subscribed to the IFB preacher Twitter feed and At first it was just fascinating Now it's just gotten depressing

57:02

Honestly, it has it's just it's just gotten absolutely depressing Watching Tony Hudson and the rager dude

57:13

And somebody's that and the one guy. Oh my goodness. I should pull this guy up the one guy

57:20

Who just He's never behind the pulpit. I don't know how he ever uses the Bible he's just walking up and down amongst the people shaking hands and Screaming constantly.

57:32

I'm Absolutely convinced the man has permanent voice damage Absolutely permanent voice, you know, you don't follow that.

57:39

I would if just for a while because Whoever does it?

57:45

I'm not sure where they're coming from. I'm not sure what they would think of me They may just be a former

57:52

IFB it just hates the faith now, I don't know I I really don't know I can't tell but Man it's

58:02

At first it's like wow, and then it's like ha ha ha and it's like oh, that's depressing and it and it really is

58:12

It's troubling To see what is said and the imbalance and really honestly the abuse of The people in the audience the abuse of the word and It's also sad to see how few people are there.

58:30

I mean They they try to get the camera angles, but there's there's there's almost nobody there

58:36

And yet they keep coming. It's yeah, it's It's something and by the way, keep your eyes open

58:43

I haven't seen it hit yet, but the the apologetics Twitter stuff

58:51

Is is is still ongoing from adherent apologetics? keep an eye open for Minal be coming up my next my

59:02

I'm up against Gary Habermas in this round so If you you know, we've certainly

59:12

We've certainly engaged on some of the minimal facts arguments in the past So keep keep an eye on that if you're on Twitter, I discovered that My fellow elders aren't even on Twitter So so Jeff Durbin, you know who

59:28

Jeff Jeff is current right now against to David Wood so it's Jeff versus David Wood and So I'm putting that on Facebook I'm putting that on Twitter I'm saying come on folks

59:42

Let's let's help the ninja and everything else when I come up Anybody to help me?

59:47

No No, but I mean amongst my fellow elders, no, there's there we don't do the

59:54

Twitter thing We're not even good about we don't care. So except that the last time Jeff did an entire

01:00:01

Please vote for me Video right after I just got out of the hospital and and I'm sure that dr

01:00:10

White would want you to vote for me and and all this kind of stuff And so who knows what's gonna come up on this next one?

01:00:18

He's probably sitting there in a mask, you know Yeah Has that suit and I I think

01:00:26

I have coronavirus, so please vote for me No, so yeah, there you go.

01:00:33

I don't even he did out of Facebook now to think about it yeah, it was on Facebook, you know, but Anyways, it's been enjoyable.

01:00:40

I've learned about all sorts of folks. I never even heard of before so it's it's doing what it's supposed to do and So I'm impressed and then the guy who's doing it did a sort of a pregame show.

01:00:51

Did you see the video? Saw that. Yeah, I linked to it You know going through the best matchups and who came from behind and it's really smart to do that right now because everyone's sitting around going

01:01:05

You know Anyways, so you could also do a

01:01:11

Old reruns of game, you know video games and all kinds of fun stuff at all. That's exciting

01:01:16

Oh, did you see did you see that Europe has asked Netflix? To drop the resolution on its streaming service or break the

01:01:27

Internet It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming the routers, huh? They're gonna have to drop back to back to 10 years ago

01:01:37

Resolution so instead of 4k like that They're gonna have to drop the resolution to keep up with how many people are streaming

01:01:44

Yeah, well because so far the u .s. Is doing pretty good on that stuff Yeah, so but you know, the worst thing was in the news article it says they've asked them to tap the brakes br -e -a -k -s

01:02:04

Which means civilization's over that's that's it's it's breaks br -a -k -e -s Yeah, what we could do is we could do like roundtables where we discuss these.

01:02:14

No, we can't we could well We could do them on On zoom as long as I'm sitting here.

01:02:20

This is not around table Oh True that true that that was I that would be what roundtable.

01:02:26

I'm sorry. I was being facetious We could do roundtables where we sit around and we discussed certain apologists and why they should be voted for Yeah Okay, really exciting.

01:02:38

I kind of like, you know watching paint dry the grass grow. Yes. It's not right Yep, and speaking of which let's get back to the phone calls and let's talk with Lee in Ohio.

01:02:47

Hi Lee Hi, dr. White, thank you so much for taking my call. Yes, sir. I Have a question about seeing

01:02:55

Christ in all the scriptures. I'd witnessed a Reformed Twitter debate a few weeks ago around psalm 1 and there was a surprising number of Calvinists in that thread that were saying you shouldn't see

01:03:09

Christ as the Blessed Man in psalm 1 and to me I thought that kind of seeing

01:03:17

Christ and all was a Calvinistic Basic so I was kind of taking it back a little bit

01:03:22

Wanted to see maybe if I could get your comment on seeing Christ in all the scriptures well yeah,

01:03:30

I think that there is validity in for example in making the application that Anything in scripture that exhorts us

01:03:45

To live in a way that's glorifying to God is what Jesus did and so Jesus fulfilled the

01:03:52

Blessed Man That's how he lived. He gave us the example Now does that mean that?

01:03:59

the author When he wrote those words Intended his audience to limit those words

01:04:08

To the future coming Messiah No, I think it's very obvious He is actually saying to his fellow

01:04:18

Jews that God blesses the man who does these things who doesn't walk in the council and godly and sit in the seat of scoffers and and It's it's all about what a godly man would be like which since Jesus is

01:04:33

The prototypical righteous Jew he is the perfect covenant keeper in all ways

01:04:39

Which is why he can be the Messiah and he can die for us everything else That's all true but I am hesitant to Break the connection of the text which with its original audience

01:04:54

For a Proper application you have to do both and my concern is

01:05:00

I've seen people go off both directions. So in Well a lot of seminaries

01:05:06

Where there isn't a emphasis upon the holistic consistency of scripture

01:05:15

Then they will preach against the idea of ever making that kind of connection this was in fact what you end up getting is well, this was what a

01:05:25

Jew at this point in time normally much closer to us than then we would date these things but a

01:05:31

Jew in the Diaspora or something like that sometime after the

01:05:37

Babylonian captivity the return whatever Certainly that had nothing to do with David from their perspective This is what he thought about how?

01:05:46

This was his elevated thought about God I mean, that's basically all you end up getting to where how that relates to Psalm 2

01:05:54

Well, it doesn't relate Psalm 2 it only relates Psalm 2 because they're both in the same book But they're both the same book simply by happenstance and there's nothing divine about it.

01:06:02

That's what you get in most seminaries, unfortunately And so that's the one extreme The other extreme is

01:06:10

Everything's about Jesus So you have to look for him even in some of the stories that are doing nothing more than Absolutely demonstrating the utter depravity of man.

01:06:22

I mean there are some chapters and judges that I'm like That that shows me why

01:06:28

Jesus had to die, but it doesn't tell me anything about Jesus So I'm lost at to add to the all scriptures about Jesus Application here.

01:06:38

I would think the balanced point would would be you you recognize what a text meant in its original context and then what it means in relationship to the rest of scripture and Since Jesus is the incarnate one then you see how it's connected to him so that everything that is exhorting us to godliness and Obedience is seen in its fullest form in him so I'm sure that I just started four different threads on certain reform boards about how

01:07:08

I'm not really a Calvinist, but There you go Yeah Yeah, that's that that makes total sense, okay.

01:07:18

All right, so thank you so much. All right Thanks for your ministry. I've benefited so so greatly from these web.

01:07:24

Thank you very much Lee stay as what you doing Thank you. Stay healthy out there Yeah, thank you.

01:07:29

Thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye Yeah, yeah, yeah to at the bar bar. Yeah for the cause way into at the bar bar one of my favorite

01:07:36

Old Testament texts Some people would say you got to find Jesus in there you got to find

01:07:42

Jesus in there So, I don't know. All right, let's talk to Devon in South Carolina, Brooke What is it with the

01:07:49

Eastern part of the United States today? We're getting you all bored over there It is later in the day.

01:07:55

So you you all might be bored. I don't know. So what's up? The only problem is the grocery stores all the vegetables are gone and some of the food is a little scarce other than that We're not really too worried about it.

01:08:08

Okay. All right. All right. I hear you. Hey, we don't have any toilet paper So it's you know,

01:08:14

I can't eat toilet paper. But yeah, it's it's an issue. Yeah, okay. No question about it. I Just have a quick question on Some different Bible versions

01:08:24

I come out of a independent Fundamental Baptist Church King James only it's been a little difficult

01:08:30

Explaining to them that I'm not under the influence of the devil by using the NASB now. Yes. Anyway, that's a different conversation but one of my friends did show me why he prefers to King James and we talked about it a little bit and I Sent out a tweet toward you, but I know you probably don't have time to read on tweet.

01:08:49

It's a Hebrews 316 And in the end in the NASB every for who provoked him when they had heard

01:08:57

Indeed did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses in the King James seems to be quite different It says for some when they had heard did not

01:09:08

Did provoke how be it not all that came out of Egypt by Moses? Seems to be

01:09:15

I mean quite opposite at first glance But is there something deeper in my are we misunderstanding this?

01:09:24

What is this? Talking about here Good question, so let me pull up D D D D D D We're gonna go

01:09:39

I could just throw up to Byzantine there But where did my

01:09:44

I don't know why my I have two different setups of accordance and I do not know

01:09:52

Why the one here at the office has a completely Different listing of what my texts are and hence where to find it.

01:10:02

I'm trying to there it is That's cuz it's way up the top of the screen Okay, as far as I can see and I'm doing this fairly quickly

01:10:15

So I'm sure someone will do a video about that too. Um as far as I can see I I do see a a textual variant

01:10:31

But it actually doesn't impact no, it doesn't end up impacting the The underlying text the

01:10:38

TR so looking at the na 28 and the TR Just really quickly here.

01:10:45

They look identical to me. So this is a translational issue So it's it's not it's not a textual issue

01:10:52

It's completely translational, this is an issue more upon like how they translated the King game. Yep.

01:10:57

This is the the Greek is the same and So this is this is this is interpretational

01:11:04

And this is let me let me back back the truck up here for a second While it is said today if you will hear his voice harden not your hearts as in the provocation for some when they had heard

01:11:18

Did provoke how be it not all that came out of Egypt by Moses versus For who provoked him when they had heard indeed did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses Okay, this is interpretational.

01:11:35

So this is When When you have

01:11:44

Certain sentences and For example in in Greek here you have tennesse and the

01:11:52

New American Standard translators Understand this as introducing a question whereas the

01:11:59

King James translators are rendering it as a statement and I'm certain that when the

01:12:07

King James translators sat around in their in their groups They probably discussed both possibilities

01:12:16

I Would if I if I was gonna do a full discussion of Hebrews 316 and why it's different I would want to look at the what the

01:12:24

Latin Vulgate says because the King James translators were deeply deeply influenced by the

01:12:32

Latin Vulgate. That was their Bible That was the Bible they utilized they they were Incredible Latin scholars, they were incredible Greek scholars too, but they were incredible Latin scholars even more so than the

01:12:44

Greek and so they are understanding this as a statement that some when they heard the message in the days of Moses did provoke

01:13:00

So they did rebel How be it not all? That came out of Egypt by Moses So they're understanding that to say for indeed some and I'm looking at the at the

01:13:12

Greek here for indeed some hearing provoked but Not all those coming out from Egypt via Moses now what's interesting is the

01:13:28

Na28 the Greek that the NAS is following. Well, actually they followed the any 27 here But anyways has a question mark at the end of the sentence the

01:13:37

King James does So The King James does not and so and there is and again all all issues of punctuation

01:13:45

No matter what anybody says, I know if you've come out of the IFB you've heard differently. The fact the matter is

01:13:51

All issues of punctuation or editorial there is no punctuation in the earliest manuscripts There's there's no way of being able to say this is a question or anything else.

01:14:00

That has to be a matter of interpretation and so if you put a question, so 10s is frequently introducing a question for example, it does to see related in verse 18 in the

01:14:18

King J and the King James is Does have a question mark after it?

01:14:24

Tissy in 17 and 18 You'll notice that 17 has a question mark grieve with but with whom was he grieved for 40 years question mark?

01:14:32

Was it not with them that had sinned whose carcasses fell in the wilderness question mark and to whom swear he that they should not

01:14:38

Enter in his rest, but to them that believe not question mark. So the King James translators are saying yeah, you have a series of questions here, but where do we start them and the

01:14:49

NAS translators started from the very they see this as an entire series of questions

01:14:56

Whereas the King James doesn't start the questions until verse 17 instead of verse 16 Off top my head.

01:15:04

It's it's been a few years since I since I preached the Hebrews I couldn't tell you which commentators to look at that would give you more information on this, but that's what's going on It's not the underlying text.

01:15:14

It is Interpretation of what is a question? What isn't? Right, so the

01:15:20

Greek would agree with each other. It's just a matter of the King James translators having their preferences.

01:15:26

Yep. Yep That's all it is, that's all it is. One more quick question. Where do you get all of your cool cross necklaces?

01:15:34

Yeah Well That's interesting a lot of my stuff.

01:15:40

I had been getting from a place called Pueblo direct, which is I'm not not paid to say this I love

01:15:48

American Indian stuff. I love Navajo stuff the Navajos just create incredibly beautiful jewelry

01:15:54

This particular one is is not From there. It's just from Amazon.

01:16:00

I just happened to love the this particular one, but the the the Chain is well not chain, whatever you call it.

01:16:07

It's it's uh, I got from Pueblo direct But there's also a place called all tribes that has some really really really nice stuff

01:16:14

But I've over the years when I've been going to Colorado, I'll stop at Navajo If you've ever driven up on the reservation to get up to Utah or Colorado we have huge Indian reservations and most of almost all of Northern Arizona's and Indian reservations and They will set up alongside the road and and sell their wares and I've just got some beautiful stuff there as well

01:16:40

And they're just incredible craftsmen. I've just always always loved it. And I've I've been here the vast majority of my life

01:16:46

I've lived in in the desert Southwest since 1974, so that's That makes me pretty close.

01:16:53

So that's where I've been. I've been getting them and I I I sort of figure Couple things

01:17:00

I figure it's not gonna be long before that's considered hate speech So I'll do it while I can and Secondly, I just always remember

01:17:09

The Mormons out at the Easter pageant which no longer exists When I would have like a cross lapel pin on or something like that They would say why do you why do you wear that if Jesus if Jesus was stabbed to death?

01:17:20

Would you wear a bloody dagger on your clothes? That's literally what they would say that you heard him say say the same thing and my response to them is have you not read?

01:17:28

the scriptures but God forbid that I should glory except in the cross the Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world's crucified in me and I into the world and it always

01:17:35

Led us into it in a conversation about the centrality of the cross The irony of that you didn't mean to bring this up, but you saw the news yesterday, right?

01:17:45

No There was a 5 .7 on the Richter scale earthquake and so earthquake in you 709 and use the

01:17:53

Utah. Do you see what happened? Moroni on the top of the

01:18:02

Salt Lake City Temple has always been blowing a trumpet his trumpet

01:18:10

Part of the arm went to yeah, and the irony was Temple Square is closed right now for renovations to make it more earthquake proof

01:18:21

Seriously, really? Yep. You're joking. No, I'm not joking. I'm not joking. It's closed right now

01:18:26

So nobody was hurt nobody was hurt because they were literally working on that and Moroni was already scheduled to be removed and Replaced and repaired and made so yeah.

01:18:41

Yeah, it's Yeah, that's it. That's interesting, but that had nothing to do with the cross, but now

01:18:46

I've given you an extra six minutes worth of airtime so Thank you for your questions

01:18:53

Okay. Thank you for your answers. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thanks for your call. Keep listening. Stay stay healthy out there.

01:18:59

God bless What Yeah, Alma Alred when when

01:19:09

Jason Wallace posted that there was a earthquake Alma had felt it as well.

01:19:15

He lives up there and so he commented that The earthquake would have been significantly

01:19:23

More frightening except for the fact that all the toilet paper in his house acted as a buffer Oh Yeah, they're gonna replace him with an entire band instead of just one trumpet, bass, percussion

01:19:44

I'm just like Okay, whatever you say, whatever you say. Oh great.

01:19:50

All right Let's let's finish off with a bang here and talk with Charles in New York. Hi Charles Hi, dr.

01:19:57

White. Thanks for taking my question. I have a question about how Some people believe in the annihilationist view of hell and others believe in the traditionalist way and I'm a traditionalist myself but someone who believes in the

01:20:09

Annihilationist view asked me something about how you know how in Isaiah 34 verse 10

01:20:14

It says that the smoke will rise forever from generation to generation. This is talking about like the judgment of the people of Edom and they asked me how is it that That Imagery can't apply to the

01:20:31

New Testament and the New Testament authors are writing about hell. Yep Yeah, well, let me let me

01:20:38

Sure what I just did to my watch but stop that. Okay good In ten minutes,

01:20:47

I have to be somewhat brief Okay, but let me just Put it this way

01:20:56

They're right and 99 % of The ministers that I minister with regularly

01:21:08

I would say have never Seriously engaged the arguments of the annihilationists or they're also called the conditionalists

01:21:20

A Vast majority of people believe what they believe in the subject by tradition

01:21:28

It's what they've absorbed from the church culture and Have never been challenged to Seriously think through what this position is all about and I would likewise argue

01:21:42

And the same is the same thing interestingly enough as to why most people who are

01:21:47

Protestants Reject Roman Catholic distinctives. It's not because they've know or they're convicted or they've actually studied it.

01:21:54

It's just what they've picked up and as a result, I would argue that my synergistic

01:22:03

Armenian friends Don't have a real solid foundation for rejecting the best arguments of conditionalism

01:22:15

When I talk to My fellow Christians about this and I say to them, you know

01:22:23

Conditionalism is one of the hardest things to deal with From a biblical perspective. It's it's the arguments are tough.

01:22:29

They look at me like are you just stupid? They really do because they've never it's it's it's an area where I know they're out there

01:22:39

It's just for some reason no one ever listens to anything. They don't listen to their arguments. They don't listen to what they're saying and And Maybe because I've dealt with Jehovah's Witnesses and I've dealt with Seventh -day

01:22:51

Adventists and I've Dealt with that for a while Maybe that's because I maybe that's one of the reasons and then back in I forget what year it was, but it was before 2010

01:23:04

Was it? Yeah, probably late late 2008 2009 I did a program on conditionalism annihilationism with with two annihilationists on Unbelievable the the webcast the broadcast out of London where I was actually in the

01:23:18

US That's first time we use an ISDN line to do the unbelievable program Before I was before Skype and all the rest that kind of stuff zoom and things like that so I've I've had to be forced to think this through a little bit more.

01:23:38

I Don't want to be the apologist for hell to be honest with you

01:23:44

And in fact, I could wish conditionalism was true. I Really could

01:23:51

I mean when you think about it, it provides an easy answer to a lot of objections that unbelievers have

01:23:59

So I could wish you I could wish that it were true. There's one major problem and I can guarantee you

01:24:05

I can guarantee you For all the toilet paper in my house Which which hopefully within a year no one will understand, you know, unless they're remembering back

01:24:16

But you know a year ago. Can you imagine that meaning something it does now, but I can guarantee you all the toilet paper in my house that within two weeks a

01:24:27

Certain group that I know of will have a video out of what I'm saying right now Responding to it from a conditionalist perspective.

01:24:34

I just just Karen just write it down put it put it in stone. It's gonna happen anyway

01:24:42

Here's here's the issue I Could wish that was it were true

01:24:51

Oh, by the way, you you need to be aware the vast majority of New Testament scholars hold that view

01:24:59

If you if you know that if you hold the traditionalist perspective now when I say New Testament scholars I'm talking about Roman Catholics and all sorts of others to even that's not an official

01:25:07

Roman Catholic perspective But Rome doesn't care what its scholars believe anymore but I can name numerous conditionalists who are

01:25:15

New Testament scholars It just it's almost the default perspective outside of There's Almost a connection between it and a belief in penal substitutionary atonement a lot of people don't accept that either and there's almost a connection there that if you do accept penal substitutionary atonement then

01:25:37

It's probably gonna impact your views and those things too. But here's the issue As I understand it, here's here's the issue

01:25:46

It's not Can you come up with a way of interpreting? Eternal punishment eternal life parallel Matthew 25 is there a difference between the imagery of Isaiah and Revelation in regards to the punishment of the

01:26:00

Beast and Punishment of Edom or anything like that? Are there not greater fulfillments in In in the

01:26:07

Revelation aspect than you would have in something like that. The issue isn't that That is so clear that that's sufficient foundation for the traditional perspective

01:26:20

For me the issue is soteriology and anthropology so when people object

01:26:29

To the eternal punishment of the wicked their objection is that even though they may have been very wicked

01:26:36

They were only wicked for a certain period of time For a limited period of time that in our minds seems completely out of proportion to eternal destruction because the conditional will say

01:26:51

Eternal destruction just simply means destruction that has eternal consequences. It's done. You're gone.

01:26:57

That's it and you've remained that way You can argue both sides of that because I think that limits it in a way that the language wouldn't necessarily indicate

01:27:08

But that's that's not here. That's not the issue right here the idea the driving force is this idea that Temporal sin

01:27:22

Cannot justly require eternal punishment because what what have you heard as the normal response that the normal response?

01:27:29

That is yeah, but it's it is an infinite character that has been violated It's God's infinite character that has been violated by our sin and therefore that warrants eternal punishment

01:27:42

Okay That's not specifically stated in Scripture that way but I Think it's a it's a valid point to make

01:27:52

But is that really the best answer and here's what I would suggest to you. Why is it?

01:28:01

that we assume That every person who dies as a rebel against God is

01:28:09

Changed into a saint when they die Including the wicked you go.

01:28:15

Well, well, we don't But we do because the assumption we all make is

01:28:23

That when we die, we stop sinning now, the only way you can stop sinning is

01:28:30

If you are sanctified the reality is Those who die in rebellion against Christ not only continue in that state upon their death and upon their discovery that they are

01:28:47

Now separated from God and under his wrath We were talking about Hades before But now the restraint that was placed upon them in this life is removed from them and so I think this

01:29:05

This is the key issue because if you're gonna argue, well, it's not proper to eternally punish someone

01:29:11

But what if they remain in a position a condition of rebellion? Conditionalism annihilationism and it's and there's different forms.

01:29:18

There's different understandings. There's a it's a complicated area but an Evangelical if you can use that terminology, but an evangelical conditionalism would require you to believe as They as they express it that you're going to be raised judged and Punished commensurately with your sins at the end of your punishment.

01:29:43

So there is there is punishment. It's not just poof disappear It's not like the Jehovah's Witnesses. There is an end to that punishment and Then the at the end

01:29:54

You you are annihilated you you cease to exist What's the assumption of all that That you're not sinning any longer against God that that you are in submission to this

01:30:05

You're in submission to the punishment that you're not continuing your hatred or that hatred of God after death is not

01:30:14

Considered to be something that requires punishment Which I think would remove from you the

01:30:19

Imago Dei as long as something was made in the image of God continues to hate God That is a that's something that's gonna bring separation

01:30:28

So I do think That the vast majority of thought as to what hell is what it's gonna look like is complete bogus

01:30:38

Absurdity that you can never demonstrate from Scripture Devils running around with pitchforks what that's

01:30:45

Dante. That's not Bible We're gonna be having a big party down there, you know,

01:30:50

Gary Larson the far side with all his stuff about hell. Nope Ain't gonna be happening as far as I can tell the imagery that's used you're alone

01:30:59

You're alone But now that the restraints have been removed from you your hatred of God becomes self -consuming.

01:31:06

I Don't think God has to extend any energy whatsoever to torment anyone in hell

01:31:14

If you are consumed with your hatred of God and you are now separated from everyone else and anything that reflects the image of God What's the only thing left?

01:31:22

yourself You are the only reminder of it. That will be enough punishment. God doesn't have to be doing anything so so the question so the only question is

01:31:34

Really is is it it does?

01:31:40

The does the light of the cross and the empty tomb Tell us that God can suspend at Some point the punishment of that continuing rebellion and just simply take that person out of existence

01:31:59

Now, let me just ask you Charles. Have you ever heard anyone even raise the questions that I was raised?

01:32:07

No That's the problem That's the problem right there

01:32:12

So what I'm so I'm telling you is I respect. Yeah, I respect the conditionalists

01:32:19

They they they are their arguments are far better than our side is willing to admit because we don't listen to them and I've said

01:32:30

I wish they were right I'm convinced they're not But I wish they were right because it would simplify a lot of stuff

01:32:37

But what I would like things to be and the way things are are two different things Is that helpful at all?

01:32:46

Very helpful. Thank you so much. Dr. White. Okay. Thanks and good luck out there in New York.

01:32:52

I don't really believe in luck. But anyways God bless. We'll see you later. Bye All right.

01:32:58

Well, that'll I guarantee you I Could name names within two weeks

01:33:05

YouTube I'll find it. I'll find it. What did you want to say something jump into what into that conversation?

01:33:13

Oh, well, I didn't notice that I'm looking at the camera. Yes, of course you are The first time I ever encountered this

01:33:19

I'm gonna go into the Wayback Machine 32 years ago You are teaching

01:33:27

LSW to a if I recall maybe be You are we are

01:33:32

North Phoenix Baptist Church LSW Oh singles. Yes We are T we are

01:33:38

I'm in the singles group You're teaching was the other singles group and I have two guys here show up in my singles group and they hijacked

01:33:46

The class and start talking about Matthew 25 46, right and how we have no way of knowing what

01:33:53

I own EOS means, right? I remember that and I as soon as class is over.

01:33:58

I walk across the hallway I grab you and drag you into the hallway and introduce you to these two guys because they think they're about to take over the whole church and Next thing, you know you start explaining to them.

01:34:11

I own EOS is in both places. It's eternal punishment and eternal life So exactly, which one do we not understand because you're fine with the life part

01:34:21

You're not fine with the punishment part. And yeah, that was their big thing. Yeah, I would not

01:34:27

I would not Consider them to be To have been the best Proponents of that perspective let's just put it that way.

01:34:36

But yeah your point about the fact that we don't encounter this That was a perfect example of it because the entire

01:34:44

Group of people in that classroom, which was a number of people that could populate many Reformed Baptist churches

01:34:51

Okay numbers wise were stumped. These guys had that you could hear a pin drop on the carpet in that room and They Adam stumped

01:35:02

So, yeah, there might be some developments in that area in the future I'm not good not gonna get into it right now, but I am truly disappointed that Someone else has not stepped up It's not like I don't have other things going on and it's not like I haven't delved into all sorts of other stuff but No one else seems to be willing to do it so Yeehaw, you do what you got to do, but it's it's challenging area.

01:35:37

It's challenging area Much more so than most people understand. So anyways, thanks for the boy.

01:35:43

We didn't I wish that program allowed us to keep a log of all of what we typed in there because you probably didn't

01:35:51

Type or make a note of any of those phone calls and I don't ever remember them At the end of the program.

01:35:57

It's just like well, there was one on that and then there was Yeah, yeah

01:36:03

Twitter. What were all those calls about and it's it's it would be really good to have each subject

01:36:08

I've got it. I've got to remember. I wonder if you can select the text and Copy it and put it into a into a file

01:36:16

I wonder if that would be possible. We'll have to check that and see if that works. So anyways, hey folks three programs this week

01:36:24

This is the second hour and a half one says three hours. We've done we've done at least good solid four hours we're trying to help you along through this difficult time and You know, so you're not just sitting there watching

01:36:39

Not only are people putting Christmas lights up but but Hallmark is going to start redoing

01:36:48

Christmas themed love story movies, which I think should be illegal anyways, but This is clearly the end of civilization.

01:36:57

There's there's absolutely no way about it So we're trying to help you by keeping your mind working thinking think of us remember us

01:37:05

But we're and and remember me on Twitter whenever my whenever my contest with Gary Havermas comes up We'll need your we'll need your votes

01:37:16

Yeah, someone Oh Summer reposted someone best decade for music 60 70s 80s 90s.

01:37:26

What do you say? 70s. Yeah, definitely

01:37:32

Definitely definitely 80s and 90s. That wasn't even music Anyways, thanks for watching.