WWUTT 1145 Q&A Pastor's Conference, Seeker Gimmicks, All Things to All People?

What in the wide world is going on in the Southern Baptist Convention? How do we properly understand 1

Corinthians 9 .22? And how can we correct those who twist that verse to justify their ridiculous gimmicks?

The answers to these questions when we understand the text. This is

When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast preaching Christ and Him crucified for our sins.

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Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. Well, we've got quite a few things for the program today.

All of it kind of goes together. Okay. But I'm not really sure in what order

I'm going to put all of this. So, I think we're just going to start with something and we'll kind of see if all of this just manages to come together here.

All right. Have we drawn straws for them? That's right. Well, why don't I begin with the blog?

Okay. So, the blog that I wrote on, I think this was Wednesday that I posted this, Wednesday evening.

But this is regarding the pastor's conference that's going to be held at the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting coming up in June in Orlando.

The pastor's conference precedes the annual meeting. Right. So, what was done on,

I think this was Monday or Tuesday, the Baptist Press announced the speakers that were going to be presenting for the pastor's conference.

And everything just kind of blew open. Yeah. Once that list came out. That was an interesting list.

The lineup is a mess to say the least. So, that's what I covered in my blog that was released on Wednesday night.

What is all the hoopla about? Because people were talking about it on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. Somebody compile all of this together for us.

Right. What is the mess? What's the bottom line mess? Yeah. Yeah. What's been started here by the pastor's conference?

So, like, were they wanting, like, what the big deal is? Or they're wanting what happened here?

Like, which hoopla are we talking about? The whole thing. The whole thing. The lineup for the pastor's conference.

So, the headlining name at the top of the announcement, according to the Baptist Press, this was the article that they released.

Best -selling author Wayne Cordero, pastor of New Hope Christian Fellowship in Honolulu, Hawaii.

How's that again? Yeah, Honolulu. Not only is Cordero not a Southern Baptist, he's not even sound, not even

Orthodox. He's a pastor in a four -square church, which is a

Pentecostal denomination founded by heretic and con artist Amy Semple McPherson. Cordero preaches things like,

Jesus came as a dream releaser. Okay. Dream releaser?

Dream releaser. I'm not sure what verse of the Gospels that is. And also,

Cordero says, nothing can rival the power of the dream that God has given you. Unless that potential is recognized and released, it remains richly unproductive, unquote.

If you're familiar with charismaticism and name it and claim it health and wealth, nonsense, new apostolic reformation, if you're familiar with any of this in any way, then you've heard that you must believe to release the power, sort of jargon and rhetoric.

That's from his book, Dream Releasers. And I didn't have to go very far to find those quotes.

They're just in the first few pages of the book. This is the kind of way that he believes and teaches. It's prosperity nonsense.

Release the power, release the vision that God has for you. All that same sort of nonsense.

He talks and preaches the same way. Cordero's church has a pastor on staff who's a woman,

Cindy Burgess. Okay. The SBC Statement of Faith, the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 states, while both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastors is limited to men as qualified in scripture.

And then in the blog, I link to the what video that has Becky in it. Oh, dear. Where we're talking about what the

Bible says about the role of men in the pulpit. And it is not a role that God has given to women.

Yeah. So once again, reminding everybody of 1 Timothy 2, beginning in verse 11, let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

Doesn't mean that a woman can't talk in church. Yeah. Good luck with that. As Becky says in the video.

But it means that she can't be a pastor. She must be submissive in understanding that God has designated men for that role as pastors in the church.

So Paul goes on in verse 12 to say, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

Rather, she is to remain quiet. And then Paul establishes that this was how

God had ordered everything from the very beginning. Verse 13, for Adam was formed first, then

Eve. Verse 14, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Now, you'll have some people who are opposed to this, what we call complementarianism, that God has specific roles for men and specific roles for women, but they complement one another in their strengths and weaknesses to form a functioning body.

But there are those that contend with that complementarian idea and say, especially when it comes to this passage in 1

Timothy 2, that this is in a fallen world. Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

But we who are in Christ have been forgiven our sins and we've been restored. So it shouldn't be this way in the church.

So it shouldn't be equal now? Yeah. Okay. Women should be able to preach as well. Yeah. No. It's just kind of like kids can't do adult jobs, adults can't do kid jobs.

Everybody has their own function. Yeah. And so to make it work well and to keep,

I don't know, keep in the word, to know what it means, to keep growing in the faith, you need those different jobs filled.

And God has equipped us in different ways. Yes. And called us to different responsibilities. Yeah. But the reason why the answer to that is no, as you said, is because what we had in verse 13,

Adam was formed first and then Eve. This is the order that God has set up from the beginning of creation. So it doesn't hinge on Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

That's certainly a reason, but it's not the only reason. When somebody starts contending with, well, hey, we've been restored in Christ, so that doesn't matter anymore.

Well, it was already established in verse 13, Adam was formed first and then Eve. So the natural created order from what

God had established in the very beginning is that Adam would be the head of his household. As the husband is the head of the household, father, head of the household.

So the man is supposed to be the picture of Christ as head over the church.

Right. The man fills that role as pastor in the pulpit. Women submit to the fact that men are supposed to fill that role.

And then they are a picture of how the entire church is supposed to submit to Christ. And we have this picture set up in marriage as well, where the husband is the head of the wife.

The wife is to submit to the husband as the church submits to Christ. And the husband is the picture of how

Christ is the head over the church. So we have that begin with the family structure begins with Adam and Eve, just as Paul is pointing out here.

Right. And then that just filters out into all other areas of the way that we operate, even in the function of a church.

And I can tell you from my before coming to Christ moments of wanting that egalitarian, you know,

I can do anything you can do. Plus, I can do it better. I mean, that... Modern feminist movement right there.

Man, I was like the epitome of that. Well, maybe not quite epitome, but pretty close.

I can see it. And I could play the damsel in distress when I wanted to play that card, or I could totally blow you off and be like, no,

I got this. Don't worry about it. I can change my own tire. Thank you. That's right. So, but whenever I was striving for that to strive, where was

I supposed to be? Where was I supposed to go? Like, what is life?

You know, like those moments. I was just so angry. I was just horribly angry at the world, at everybody, maybe not necessarily

God, because I knew ultimately that God, you know, was God. And so, there's not really a point to get angry with Him, but it was just angry about everything.

And not figuring out where my role was. Sure, I know that I could do a lot of things really, really well.

Meaning and purpose in life, calling. But I just couldn't find my fit. And then once I was saved, and, you know, we met, and we got married, and it just sort of,

I mean, I'm happy. I don't feel myself being angry. No, I mean, like, you know, with the purpose thing.

I'm specifically speaking about purpose here. Okay, gotcha. My purpose, my calling. She's not talking about me. No, no, no, my purpose.

It's all about me. But, I mean, really, it was like I was fighting against something that I couldn't win at.

And so, it made me very angry, because I still couldn't find my fit on that side. Made you more combative. Yes, it did.

So, you know, whenever you submit to God, and the Bible, and God's Word, what

He says, His instructions to us. His design. His design. Yeah, it just, it's so amazing that it falls into place after that.

Yeah, and suddenly there's a lot more fulfillment. And clarity. Yes, it's so much more fulfilling when you are obeying and submitting to the things as God has arranged them to be.

But we have, even within our Southern Baptist Convention, contention against this very idea, which is stated in our own

Baptist Faith and Message 2000, reading it once again, while both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastors is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.

So, Kodero's church could not be part of the Southern Baptist denomination, which is operating contrary to the clear commands of Scripture and even our own statement of faith.

Yet, this man is listed as the headlining name preaching to Southern Baptist ministers.

Yeah, I don't understand. Why are they inviting people that are not of the Southern Baptist Convention?

Oh, this is typical. Is it? Okay. It's kind of like how the ERLC will very frequently, although I don't know that they've done this in a little while, but it used to be all the time.

They'll frequently invite Andy Stanley to come and speak to it. I'm like, why do I want to listen to Andy Stanley tell me about Southern Baptist life when he's not a

Southern Baptist himself? Yeah. His dad is. So, he's really riding the coattails of his father, who was a former

Southern Baptist church president. And that's why Andy gets invited to all of this stuff. Okay.

I mean, I still don't get it, but. So, former Southern Baptist Convention president.

I think I said church, but convention. Ah, yeah. You may have. I don't know. I didn't catch it. I didn't catch it either.

Anyway, somebody rewind it and go back in here if I said that right. But anyway, that's not the only problem.

We're starting with the name at the top. Yeah, that's just the. That's the first name that was given to us.

Tip of the iceberg. The list of speakers also includes Hosanna Wong, who is a spoken word artist who will perform some kind of poetry performance backed by music.

Isn't that a song? Yeah, it's like speaking a song. Oh, okay.

Yeah, she's just to talk it. Okay. She's going to talk it out. But with music. It's like slam poetry. Okay.

It probably doesn't rhyme. Okay. Which is prose to me. Right. If you're not making it rhyme, it's prose.

It is. Unless it's in the Bible. Yeah, you know, poetic form in the Bible. But we know that we're losing the rhyming scheme because language in translation.

Right. But in Hebrew, it rhymes. Sure. I'm just kidding. Don't take that for me and go.

Well, Pastor Gabe said this rhymed in Hebrew. I'd be interested to learn Hebrew now. I want to hear how it rhymes a different kind of poetic structure they did in the

Hebrew language. But anyway, by the way, she has the title of teaching pastor at East Lake Church in San Diego.

This woman does ministry in willful disobedience against God's word. She's unqualified, even according to our

Baptist statement of faith. So why is she being invited to address pastors at a Southern Baptist event?

If this woman was in your church, if she was in your Southern Baptist church trying to ascend to a place of the role of pastor, which is what she has in her church, you would discipline her.

She would be under church discipline. Yeah, I'm still I'm still confused.

Why? What? OK, so I thought conventions are like the kind of thing where you get the best of the best and of of the like minded people and to really energize and teach all together, like as a big group.

Right. According to the same, that's what it's supposed to be about. Right. According to the same doctrines that we share and things that you would think that's what they would want to promote there.

So so far we have a guy who's not part of our convention and we have another gal who's not part of our another gal who's not part of our convention and both of them disobedient to right.

So, OK, number three. OK, so going on. Well, continuing on here with with this issue with Wong.

So in the last couple of years, a segment of Southern Baptists, and I'm one of them, I'm part of this segment.

We've been saying that the powers that be are attempting to sneak in egalitarianism. And right at the front of this is like Beth Moore going, no, we're not right.

She's even standing in the pulpit going, no, no, we're not trying to sneak in egalitarianism. So the liberal and in case you don't know, egalitarianism is the liberal progressive idea that a woman has just as much right to the pulpit as a man.

The feminism that, you know, Becky was saying that she was striving for when she was younger. Yeah.

And these leaders might assure us that they're committed complementarians. Beth Moore herself will say she's a soft complementarian, which means she's a soft egalitarian.

But when they give pastoral platforms to women like Beth Moore, who's aggressively challenged complementarianism,

I mean, it really gives credibility to those persons who have raised this issue of like, no, we think you guys are trying to sneak egalitarianism back in to the

Southern Baptist Convention. This was a problem when Albert Mueller took over as president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

This stuff was going on in the SBC. Yep. And so, yeah, here we go with this controversy again with those same people going, no, we're not trying to sneak in egalitarianism are now platforming

Hosanna Wong. But she's not preaching. She's just doing poetry.

She's a pastor, but she's doing poetry. She's not preaching. So it's OK. It's different whenever they if they would invite like Keith and and Kristen Getty, Kristen Getty.

Right. And Kristen would be talking up there. Well, she's not a pastor. And that's that's what

I'm saying. It's different because she's not a pastor, whereas this gal is.

Yeah. And so that's. And also in submission to her husband, she's in submission to proper roles for men and women in the church.

She's not standing up there to be a pastor or to teach outside of the lyrics she's going to be singing in her songs.

And she's there singing with her husband on top of that. I mean, I've not ever been to an event where Kristen Getty was singing by herself.

She's singing there with Keith Getty. Yep. So. So, yeah, totally different issue, totally different thing going on than what's happening with Hosanna Wong, who once again is an ordained pastor.

So her very position in the church from which she comes puts her in biblical disobedience in her church.

And if she comes to a Southern Baptist convention, no matter where she's standing on whatever coast she's on, she is sinning.

Right. Sinning against God and sinning against his word. And then they're going to put these people in front of.

Pastors. Yeah. Yeah. Telling us, entertaining us by whatever it is they're supposed to be doing.

Anyway, David Ooth, who is the pastor's conference president, he's the guy that shared the selection of all of these persons for the pastor's conference.

OK. He told the Baptist Press she's not preaching. She's not coming as a preacher. She's coming as a musical artist.

That makes it OK. So she's stepping out of her pastor role altogether.

So she's going to go back home, not a pastor. Yeah, she would have to, in order for that to be in obedience, not a woman who would otherwise be in church discipline at any given

Southern Baptist church. No matter where you're at, you're a pastor. Right. Like you, you as in Pastor Gabe.

As the role. As the title. Right. But anywhere you go, no matter what you say, say we go to Florida and you say something in Florida, it's still

Pastor Gabe said. Right. Yeah. I still have to present myself as a person who has been entrusted to care for the flock of God.

Right. So it doesn't matter where I am. Wherever she goes, she's carrying that title with her. Yes. Regardless of what she's doing.

Right. Yeah. It doesn't matter whether she steps out of her church or not. That's dumb to say that. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to be so rude. Oh, you said dumb. I did. Kids cover your ears.

I mean, that was not well thought out. That's what I meant. I'm sorry. I'm just going to quit digging myself a hole.

Hey, I've used I've used the word stupid in a recent one video because it's in the Bible.

I know. Anyway, so the argument that I make in the blog is why not make

Nadia Bowles Weber the host of this thing? Hey, as long as she's not preaching, then that's okay, right?

No comment. Becky loves Nadia Bowles Weber. So continuing on here, also on the docket for the pastor's conference,

Jim Simbala, who is the pastor of the famed Brooklyn Tabernacle in New York City. When I was a kid,

I had CDs from the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. Okay. I know who they are. And I know who they are well enough to know the

Brooklyn Tabernacle believes in an unbiblical second baptism of the Holy Spirit. In fact, when you go to their website and you click on their statement of faith, there's not many articles in their statement of faith.

But one of them is we believe in a second baptism of the Holy Spirit. Wow. Phil Wickham is leading worship.

I've warned in my blog a couple of times whenever talking about Christian music and some of these popular praise and worship songs that are performed in our church.

Wickham is associated with the heretical Bethel Church in Reading, California. So if you'll remember, we talked about this on the program,

I think briefly because it's a pretty emotionally charged issue. But back in December, they had that week -long dead raising ceremony where they were trying to raise that little girl from the dead.

Oh, yeah. Anyway, moving on. And it was in reporting on that that Dr.

Albert Moeller, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, he said he made this point that Bethel is not even a church.

Yeah. I mean, it's paganism disguised as Christianity, but it's not a church.

Yeah. They're playing church, but they aren't a church. So anyway, we're not done here, okay?

Okay. Hold on tight. One of the speakers is also David Hughes, no relation to us.

Right. Senior pastor. That we're aware of. That we're aware of. Senior pastor of Church by the

Glades in Coral Springs, Florida. David's wife is also regarded as a pastor there.

And I linked to the Facebook page where it has Pastor David Hughes and Pastor Lisa Evans Hughes, the co -pastors there at Church by the

Glades, Southern Baptist Church. And here they are in disobedience against the Baptist Faith and Message 2000.

So does every church in the Southern Baptist Convention have to follow that, have to abide by that, or is it optional?

It would be expected, yes. Okay. So if you're going to be part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and you're going to call yourself a

Southern Baptist Church, and you're going to send messengers to the annual meeting to be able to vote on issues and be able to affect some of the things that are going on in the convention, then you, at the very least, have to be in agreement with the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000. Okay. I mean, I was part of a Christian campus kind of thing for homeschoolers, and we had to all agree on the basics of Christianity and sign an agreement that we do all agree on this.

So that way we have a starting ground. So I was assuming it was the same thing, but I wanted to clarify. Yeah. Now, I think that—

Just for those of people listening out there that are not Southern Baptist. But at the same time, the convention doesn't police this stuff.

Okay. I can't even remember the last time that anybody was actually removed by the convention. I know that there was a church that was under consideration the first year that we went, but it was like the week before the annual meeting was held.

That church that was going to be brought up at the convention for removal, it was because they were accepting gay marriage and were wanting to ordain gay clergy.

This was a Southern Baptist Church. So they were going to be brought up at the convention for removal, but it was like a that church itself pulled out.

Okay. And they said, nah, we're not Southern Baptist anymore. We don't even want to do this. Of course, it's only a matter of time before some bigger church is going to want to push this all the way to the end.

Like, hey, we want to make a name for ourselves, so we're going to take this all the way to the annual meeting. Somebody's going to do it eventually.

Eventually. Yeah. But anyway, the convention itself—because the Southern Baptist convention is not a hierarchy.

So the convention doesn't exist policing all of its little local autonomous churches. The churches are autonomous.

Right. The convention is to exist to serve the local church. It's not to police or oversee the local church.

Okay. So that's huge pluses and some minuses to that as well.

Okay. I prefer autonomous churches. Of course. Of course. That's the way

I believe—that is the biblical model I believe exists for the church. But I do think that being part of a denomination like this, if you want to call it that, it's not traditionally a denomination as you might expect.

Lutheran Church, Methodist Church, or Presbyterian Church, where those conventions really are kind of over, you know, all the little smaller churches that are a part of it.

Okay. But so it doesn't exist as a denomination in that sense. But as a denomination, as we understand it, a denomination.

One of the good things about that is that we can keep one another accountable. And we can look at other

Southern Baptist churches and we can keep one another on the right path, especially when it comes to the sound teaching of God's Word, the teaching that accords with godliness, as Paul describes it in 1

Timothy 6, that we remain fixed on these things and the promotion of the gospel because that's what the church exists for.

We exist on the gospel of Jesus Christ. We exist to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when a church starts deviating from that and those things that accord with godliness, the godliness that is produced by the preaching and living out of the gospel, when a church starts deviating from that, then you have other churches within that association, those like -minded persons that adhere to the same statement of faith that are able to say, come alongside that church and say, hey, repent.

Yeah. Come back to the gospel. Be careful. You're flirting with danger here. But we have, we've built this convention now.

The Southern Baptist Convention is almost like a convention of, expected to be a convention of yes men. Yeah.

We're all just supposed to say yes and agree with everything. And there's always, you know, you've heard about that 11th commandment that you're not supposed to call anybody out.

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that one. We're all, we're all just supposed to join hands and sing kumbaya every annual convention, apparently.

Why can't we all just get along? But church polity is gravely lacking in the Southern Baptist Convention.

I even remember reading an article from Albert Moeller, and this was at the beginning of when I became a pastor, that he published this article where he was talking about less than 10 % of churches in the

United States, according to statistics, are practicing church discipline. So that,

I would say that statistic isn't any different for the Southern Baptist Convention. Right. We have so many churches within a part of the denomination that are not practicing discipline, and which is why we have some of the issues and problems that we've got coming up, including the sex abuse scandal.

Oh, man. A lot of that could have been diminished if church polity was actually important to churches, if they really were practicing church discipline.

True. But that isn't. Yep. That isn't going on in many Southern Baptist churches. Even when we practiced it in our church, there was opposition to it.

And so that's just the way people are, with this pragmatic approach to everything. We don't want to offend anybody.

We don't want to make anybody mad. Then we're just... Well, I mean, nobody likes to. Oh, sure.

It's not enjoyable. But it's got to be done. But you still have to love it.

Yeah, true. Because the Bible says... You don't enjoy discipline, but you have to love discipline.

Because the purpose of that is to bring a person back to the path of righteousness and shape them more in the image of Christ.

Right. And so we should love that. And where do you grow the most? But in your trials. Right. So coming back to church by the glades, which should be eliminated because they don't even follow what is said in the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000, Chris Roseborough of Pirate Christian Radio, he's been warning for years about the idolatry that's going on in this church, lacking any clear preaching of the gospel.

About four years ago, Church by the Glades featured a stormtrooper dance. Stormtroopers from Star Wars.

Oh, okay. With people on stage dressed as Star Wars characters doing crotch thrusts to Don't Stop Till You Get Enough by the

Jackson 5. Okay. Now, I can't even play you the audio clip of it because of those copyright things that are even listening for...

I'm sure the people old enough already have it going through their heads. They already know Don't Stop Till You Get Enough by the

Jackson 5. Yeah. And if the younger generations, they can Google it. Now, I hate the song.

Otherwise, I'd jump into my falsetto and do it for you. But yeah, I can't stand it either.

Now, this church has also featured their worship leaders doing covers of songs by Katy Perry, Beyonce, and Britney Spears.

The Spears song that I saw was Circus. Okay. With lyrics like, well, baby, I'm a put on a show kind of girl.

And when I crack that whip, everybody gonna trip. The performance put on by Church by the

Glades was every bit as provocative as it sounds. Hips spinning, all these girls dancing around while she's singing this.

I'm a circus baby or whatever the chorus of that song is. Wow. Not going to sing that one for you either.

Please don't. One of the sermon gimmicks that they did was Game of Thrones. Okay. And David Hughes, the pastor of this church, was seen sitting on the

Iron Throne that's common to that HBO TV show Game of Thrones, which once again,

I've never seen an episode of. No, I haven't either. I made a couple of videos expressing why

Christians should have nothing to do with it. It's a night themed porn show. Yeah. Now, I managed to grab a part of the sermon that began this

Game of Thrones series that they were doing at Church by the Glades. So here we go. Here's a clip of David Hughes.

Sorry, babe. You're going to have to hear a sermon clip today. Here is

David Hughes. Here we go. Explaining this sermon series that they're doing featuring

Game of Thrones. Yeah, CBG is doing GOT.

We're doing the Bible's Game of Thrones. And man, some churches would not do that.

Some pastors would not approach this. They probably have better judgment than me. But we are that kind of church.

We don't endeavor to be provocative. Now, see, I have a hard time believing that giving the videos that I've seen that they're not endeavoring to be provocative.

Oh, he said not. Yeah. We're not endeavoring to be provocative. That's what he just said there.

Okay. And by the way, in my blog, I showed a picture of invitations that they hand out to their church.

Right. And it's women with, you know, very flattering or flirtatious eyes.

And it says, victorious secret. Not Victoria's secret, victorious secret.

Right. These are the invitations they hand out to get people to come to church. It's sexually alluring advertising.

Yeah. Yeah. But they apparently don't use that. They're not trying to be provocative. Not trying.

Ignore the stormtrooper pelvic thrust we were doing weeks before.

We're not trying to be provocative here. I have a real hard time believing that. The reason

I've chosen to do a Bible's Game of Thrones are two. Reason number one is this

HBO series has been immensely popular. Unless you're living under a rock, it's been all the news in recent months.

There are people who are crazy fans. So I'm, I don't watch the show. I'm not endorsing the show, but man,

I'm going to use the show. And so I've been out inviting people. Do you guys have a picture of the invite card? It's not even in the slides.

You can find one. I've been getting all these invite cards and people have been cracking up because it says the Bible's Game of Thrones. And it says in the bottom, the scripture says all the intrigue, drama, and none of the nudity.

People have been laughing. So it's great to invite them. And so there's someone in your life. You've invited a church and they've said, no, they've said no time and time again, because they have no interest in church and no interest in God, but they're a big time

Game of Thrones fan. And so you circle up, give them one of these. We're doing a Game of Thrones here. We'll have, we have the iron throne on the stage.

David might let you sit in it. Probably not. But, um, but you know, so see, we do stuff like this from time to time, not to be edgy or not to be whatever, but because I believe hell is real.

I think heaven's real. Hell is real. And the stakes are so high. I don't know how we can afford to play it safe.

So I will do just about anything to get someone into one of our campuses, into one of these rooms to hear the gospel.

Cause it's not to grow our church. It's to grow heaven. It's to bring people to King Jesus. So, and by the way, that is biblical.

The apostle Paul, I would say was rather effective at inviting people to Jesus. Would you say the apostle Paul was better than average when it came to bringing people far from God into a relationship with God?

Would you agree? Okay. It has to be a hearty, loud yes, because he was the greatest missionary in history.

No one's been more effective at bringing now, man, generation after generation. It all started with the apostle Paul. I feel like I just got done with a whirlwind.

Okay. Like what on earth is he talking about? Can he just like land the plane? He thinks...

Break it down for me. Yeah. He thinks that by not doing this game of thrones gimmick, they would be playing it safe.

That's, that's what he just said. He said, he said the stakes are too high. Paul decided to go out and be like,

Hey, we've got this. We need to win people to Christ. Fertility goddess over at our church.

You need to come over and like, come see what we've got, but without the nudity. Yeah, that's right.

That's right. What's the... So what, what? Like the goddess of love statue.

We have it in here, but we've covered it up. So we don't have the nudity. You can't see that. We're inviting all you pagans to come in here.

And then we're going to lay the gospel on you. Of course they're laughing at you. Because you're being ridiculous. It's just, oh my goodness.

So he, and he thinks that he's... Guys, this is not the way to invite people to Christ.

Christ's church is a holy church. Yeah. You're in, you're encouraging them with filth, minus the filth.

Right. It is appealing to the flesh. And that's exactly the argument that he's making there.

And Paul doesn't do that. No, he doesn't. So how is that biblical? I don't understand.

Yeah. Paul specifically said that we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and Gentiles. First Corinthians 1 .23.

So that was not in any way, shape or form trying to win people. Let's be soft.

Let's do these pop culture gimmicks. But playing it safe would be not doing the pop culture gimmicks according to.

Yeah, he, what he's saying, the stakes are so high. We can't play it safe here. We've got to do the pop culture gimmicks to get people to come in the doors.

No. Right. But what, one of the things that I mentioned in the blog, I don't think

I attribute this quote to Paul Washer, but he's one that I know I've heard say this. If you use carnal means to get people in your church, you have to use carnal means to keep them there.

Right. You are entertaining the goats. You are not feeding the sheep. In fact, the entire

Western world embracing Jesus almost is due to the one guy. He was so effective. But Paul said this in 1

Corinthians 9 .22. It's on the screen at every campus. And when I saw this verse and really began to understand this verse, this changed the way we did ministry here.

Changed my heart. Here's what Paul said about the way he would methodology reach people for Jesus. He said, I become all things to all people.

So he's trying to be relatable, not a sellout, not a compromise, but meet people where they are.

Right. I become loudly. I become all things to all people that so by all possible means,

I might save some all possible means. Thank you. Lady in white clapping first.

Thank you. Yeah, that's who we are. Paul's saying the stakes are too high to play it safe. I'll do anything short of sin to help someone connect with Jesus.

So I'll use a movie. I'll use pop culture. I'll use Twitter. I'll use whatever it is. Anything on the edge, man, to bring people to Jesus.

So we're leveraging Game of Thrones to bring people to church. So you invite people next few weeks. Next week, by the way, going to be so fun next week.

I'm not telling you what's happening next week, but get ready to laugh and have fun and learn. It's going to be crazy fun next week. People who know that gets good just on steroids next week, but every week.

And then it's Father's Day. And so the men are going to man up and bring our families to church. So it's going to be great.

Wow. Bring your families to church. That's revolutionary. Who would have thought?

Bring your families to church. Men have to man up on that one day. That was

I remember when I first listened to that and I heard that. I was like, what did he say? Yeah, got to bring.

We're going to man up and bring our families to church. So like after the dumbfoundedness shock.

After the shock and awe there. Okay. So what was

Paul's true meaning in context about doing that quote that.

Yeah. First Timothy 9, 22, I become all things to all people. Yes. I'm glad you asked because that's the email that I have here.

Like I said, all of this kind of comes together today. I just didn't know what order to put all of this in.

Let's go for it. This is Peter in Illinois. He says, Dear Pastor Gabe, thank you for your latest blog, narrowing down for us the issues that have arisen with the

SBC pastors conference. On that subject, you mentioned the seeker sensitive movement in the

Evangelical American Church, though I don't think you actually use the term seeker sensitive. I've used that term elsewhere, but I was

I spoke mostly regarding pragmatism in that particular blog. That is the problem that's going on in the

SBC, even the sex abuse scandal that exists and our difficulty in dealing with it.

All of that whittles down to the Southern Baptist Convention's love affair with pragmatism, which has been going on for decades now.

So Peter goes on whenever it comes to justifying the pop culture infusion that happens in these attractional churches.

I often hear First Corinthians 9, 22. I have become all things to all people that by all means

I might save some. I know I've heard Andy Stanley and Rick Warren use exactly this verse when they've said things like we shouldn't even use the

Bible in our sermons. I don't know that Rick Warren has said that exactly. Andy Stanley has.

Yeah, but I think what Warren has said is that you shouldn't start your sermon with the Bible.

So I know he's made that argument. I don't know if he's ever said we shouldn't use the Bible in the sermon at all. Andy Stanley has boasted that he's gone entire sermons without ever quoting

Scripture. So Peter goes on. What is a careful yet firm way that we can contend with those who misuse this passage, twisting it to justify stormtrooper crotch thrusting in a

Sunday service? He's quoting my blog there. Yes, Peter from Illinois. Peter, I appreciated the statement.

What is a careful yet firm way that we can contend with those who misuse this passage to infuse pop culture themes into the

Sunday morning service? Well, first of all, let's come here to First Corinthians chapter nine, and we'll read a little bit further up.

Keep this in context a little bit. What's going on here in verse 22? Paul says, starting in verse 19.

Now, this is this is right after he has talked about things like the Christian liberty that he has, but giving up that liberty for the sake of serving others for the gospel of Christ.

OK, he has talked about food laws, how he doesn't eat anything or put something in front of him that would cause somebody to stumble.

So we get to verse 19, where he says, for though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all that I might win more of them.

To the Jews, I became as a Jew in order to win Jews to those under the law. I became as one under the law, though not being myself under the law that I might win those under the law to those outside the law.

I became as one outside the law, not being outside the law of God, but under the law of Christ that I might win those outside the law to the weak.

I became weak that I might win the week. And here's that passage. I have become all things to all people that by all means

I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel that I may share with them in its blessings.

To give an explanation, a deeper explanation of this passage, we're going to turn now to Pastor Phil Johnson.

All right. And these famous megachurch pastors whose reputations are built on laser light shows and publicity stunts always try to defend their gimmickry with an out -of -context appeal to 1

Corinthians 9 .22 where the Apostle Paul writes, I have become all things to all people that by all means

I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel. And they quote that verse as if practically any kind of tomfoolery can be justified as long as the motive is to attract unbelievers to church.

In fact, let me read to you from Rick Warren. This is his comment on that text, 1 Corinthians 9 .22.

He writes, Paul always allowed his target to determine his approach.

Some critics might say Paul was being a chameleon. Not so. Paul was being strategic.

His motivation was his desire to see all people saved. And then Rick Warren adds,

I love the living Bible paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 9 .22. And he reads it. Yes, whatever a person is like,

I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let

Christ save him. I do this to get the gospel to them and also for the blessing

I myself receive when I see them come to Christ. That's the living Bible paraphrase. Now, if you find that interpretation of 1

Corinthians 9 .22 the least bit persuasive, just consider this.

Paul knew full well that Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom.

But, he says, we preach. We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the

Jews and folly to the Greeks. So think about what he's saying there. The Jews demand a sign.

We give them a stumbling block. Greeks demand wisdom. We preach a message they think is foolish.

That's not very seeker -sensitive. It's not very felt -needs oriented. And yet, it's also not at all like any of the advice you hear from the best known evangelical experts on culture and contextualization.

When Paul talked about becoming all things to all people, the context reveals that he was explaining how he tried to avoid unnecessary offense to people's moral and religious and For example, even though Jesus Himself had formally declared all foods clean,

Paul would not go into a Jewish community and eat unclean foods in front of someone whose conscience was still bound by the

Old Testament restrictions. Or, as he says in 1 Corinthians 10 .28, if you're in a pagan community and someone says to you, this has been offered for sacrifice, then do not eat it for the sake of the one who informed you and for the sake of conscience.

And then he adds this, I do not mean your conscience, but his. In other words, what he is saying there in 1

Corinthians 9 is that he was careful not to give the appearance of impropriety, because how can you commend yourself to everyone's conscience if you've been openly doing things that their consciences would tell them are wrong?

And therefore, to those who are under the law, I became as one under the law, he says. Paul, that's

Paul who hated legalism more vehemently than any of today's uber -liberated, missional -minded evangelical wine critics.

This is Paul, the same Paul who admonishes us to stand fast in the liberty wherewith

Christ has made us free. That same Paul was willing to forego his liberty when he was trying to reach a legalist with the gospel.

Did that help you out? Clear explanation of 1 Corinthians 9, 22. That was awesome.

So coming back to 1 Corinthians 10, which he mentioned there, where he says in verse 28, if someone says to you, this has been offered in sacrifice, then do not eat it for the sake of the one who informed you and for the sake of conscience.

I do not mean your conscience, but his. So when David Hughes is sitting out there on a

Game of Thrones throne, don't you think that the person who is worldly -minded, who comes in there and sees that, is thinking this church is saying it's okay to watch

Game of Thrones? Right. You're actually violating the conscience of the person that you think you're trying to save.

Even though he did say that he's not trying to promote the TV series. Yeah, even though he said, we're not promoting the show.

We're not promoting nudity. We're not trying to be provocative, which is not their MO at all.

I mean, they're very provocative in all the things that they do. And David Hughes says that we do this because the stakes are too high.

Yeah. If you understood the stakes being that high, then you would forego the ridiculous gimmickry that you have out there on the stage that's actually going to lead people astray, not lead them to Christ.

It's going to continue to entertain their flesh, not pierce their soul with the truth of the gospel.

If you knew the stakes were that high, you would go to Romans 1 16 and understand, I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

Right. And I mean, do they even get to the heart piercing gospel? No. Okay.

No. And according to Chris Roseborough, once again, who I mentioned, he's been following Church by the

Glades for years, mentions that the gospel is just never there in the stuff that they present. So he says, he even mentioned.

So they claim that they do, but again, they fall short of what they're claiming. David Hughes even said heaven and hell there at the beginning, because I believe in heaven and hell and the stakes are too high.

Right. If you understood the stakes were that high, then you would go to the gospel. But instead you go to your iron throne and think this is what we need to do to attract people to come in here spending lavish amounts of money on all of this stuff.

Yeah. And advertisement for it. Yeah. And advertisement for it. He said he was handing out stuff. Yeah. Victoria's Secret.

Our friend Alan Nelson, who's a pastor down in Arkansas, he said that all this stuff these guys are doing up on stage, it's just paganism with laser lights.

Yeah. So it's not any different than. Yeah. Like once again, the Katy Perry songs, the

Madonna songs, the circus song from Britney Spears, they perform all of this out there with investing lots and lots of money in these shows.

Like the one number that I watched, I can't even imagine how many hours and hours of work went into that.

And not to mention the costumes and the decorations and everything else. Oh, wow. That they had out there on stage.

I mean, it was a full fledged production. Wow. I've worked backstage at productions like this.

I know what goes into these things. Yeah. And they're doing it just about every Sunday there at the church with all this gimmickry that they put together.

Absolutely outrageous. They may have a lot of money to show for it, but they don't have the souls that have been one to Christ.

If anybody comes to Christ and becomes a Christian in a church like that, the

Holy Spirit was working in spite of the stuff that they're doing, not through the stuff that they're doing.

Right. Yeah. Game of Thrones gimmicks don't lead anybody to Christ. The Apostle Paul, who

David Hughes was appealing to there, the Apostle Paul knew better than anybody. And he said, I become all things to all people.

He was not dressing up in a storm trooper outfit and standing out there in the Areopagus preaching the gospel to the

Greeks or having the love goddess statue, the way that you put it. I couldn't think of the other ones, but that one.

What's the one that I was trying to think of was the gal with no arms. You know what I mean? Nope. That statue with no arms is a famous statue.

Yeah, I know the famous statue. I have no idea. You just don't know what the name is. Yeah. Not a clue. Sorry. I've even said it before, but it's totally escaping me now.

But anyway, yeah, we've got that statue in here, but we put clothes on her. That's what I was trying to say earlier.

And it just wasn't coming out of my mouth. Well, Peter, thank you for your question to come down. So your question was, what is a careful yet firm way that we can contend with those who misuse this passage?

We'll go back to First Corinthians 123, where it says we preach Christ crucified a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles.

I mean, as we have there earlier in First Corinthians 118, for the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing.

Yeah. But to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Once you start.

And it is enough. Right. The gospel is enough. The gospel is what saves. Yeah. No gimmick has ever saved anybody.

You want to preach to a mass of unbelievers, go outside your church to a busy area of town and preach the gospel there.

But doing the Game of Thrones gimmicks, it doesn't lead unbelievers to Christ.

And you'll even result in leading believers astray. That's so true. By doing that kind of gimmickry.

Yep. Unfortunately, one of the other Southern Baptist pastors that is going to be there at the conference, another one of these speakers that speaking at the pastors conference,

Jimmy Scroggins, who's a longtime and very popular Southern Baptist minister, he says,

I love Pastor David Ooth, who was the guy that set up the pastors conference. He's the pastor of First Baptist Church, Orlando, who did that thing where they welcomed a whole bunch of LGBTQ people there and laid hands on him and prayed for him.

OK. He did that. And he says, and I love Pastor Hughes and their churches.

We don't have to agree on everything or do everything the same way to be a family. So he's totally behind exactly this kind of gimmickry, exactly the kind of nonsense stuff

Pastor David Ooth has done and including the inclusion and platforming of women pastors at the pastors conference that's coming to the

Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting this June. You don't see the biggest names in the

Southern Baptist Convention coming out and standing against this. You see them applauding it and supporting it.

Yeah, it's very telling. Yeah. So as long as that's as long as that continues,

I mean, are we really going to see any transformation in the Southern Baptist Convention or is it going to continue to go down this rabbit hole in this way?

And this is important to everybody, regardless of your denomination. Yes, because the

Southern Baptist denomination is the largest Protestant denomination in the country. It is. So if the

Southern Baptists are being led astray by this wickedness and craziness, then that means that a lot of your neighboring churches in your area are going to be highly affected by this.

And they're all doing it, too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is this is a picture of American evangelicalism.

It's happening across all the denominations. Right. And I make that point in the blog that this isn't just about the

Southern Baptist Church. Right. The things that David Hughes is doing, Stephen Furtick does,

T .D. Jakes does, Rick Warren does, Ed Young Jr. does, Andy Stanley does.

Not all of those guys, Southern Baptists, but they're all doing the same thing. Yeah. And this is the megachurch sort of mentality that's going on.

And then you have people of smaller churches that are looking at the megachurches going, how can we be like those guys? And they start incorporating the same gimmicks.

They do, yes. The local churches in your community are doing the same gimmicks that these guys are doing.

And then people aren't going to go to your church anymore because the other church is giving away free iPads. Yeah, right.

So how do we contend with this? I would say to you, stick with the gospel. That's right. Preach the gospel.

Keep at it. Be faithful to the word and make sure you keep your pastor and elders to the gospel.

Yes. The whole church together can be admonishing and encouraging one another, keeping one another in check and on the path of righteousness when we are caring for each other the way that we should.

As Paul's letters were written to the entire church, then we can keep each other safe from the ways and schemes of this world.

Paul even presents the church in Ephesians chapter four as being a protection for one another from the waves and winds of shifting doctrines from the schemes of man.

We can keep each other from those things. Paul said to Timothy in 1 Timothy chapter one, charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make their confident assertions.

But in there, I skipped over this part, verse five. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

That's right. Paul was telling that to a man who he was sending to pastor the church in Ephesus, but it's just as important for all of us to follow and keep one another on...

The path of righteousness. Right, yeah. That's what I was going to say again, but on the mark with the gospel.

Yes. Holding fast to the gospel, teaching the word of God, expository preaching in our churches, that's what we need.

Yeah. And for those of you who are Southern Baptists, pull your money out from supporting things that the money would go to supporting the pastor's conference.

Yeah. We need to stop dumping all of our money in the cooperative program pot. Yeah. Designate your money toward those things that you actually want to invest in and don't let the money support things like this nonsense that's going on.

And then whenever the SBC gets its head on straight, if you will, then you will see that growth in your communities again, and hopefully it just trickles down to every last church.

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, you have the big leaders are setting this... Example. Example, and other people are following it.

Yep. That's the most unfortunate thing. You can't just say it's, oh, it's the megachurch guys, because it's not.

Like I said, it's churches in your own community that are doing this. They're trying. So we need to pray for one another.

We need to be fixed upon the word of Christ. We need to continue preaching the gospel and not be ashamed of it.

Right. Because by the way, doing this kind of stuff, this gimmicky kind of thing on stage, it is being ashamed of the gospel. It's saying the gospel isn't enough.

Right. That's what I was going to say. God's word is insufficient. It needs some help. It needs some dressing up.

Right. We need to draw them in. Yep. With this stuff. Yeah. And it's, no, that's not how it works.

Yeah. And when you figure that out, when you actually read the Bible for how it is and how it's laid out and all the details, it is perfect.

And that is how we are to function. Yeah, absolutely. God's word is inerrant and sufficient for our every need.

Amen. Let us pray. Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for your church, that you have called us out of the darkness of this world into your marvelous light.

You have given us your church once we were not a people, but now we are God's people. And I pray that we would love the people of God.

We would love the people of God so much that we would be willing to correct the errors and things like that we see going on within your church.

Some of these churches have had their lampstands removed. They're not even following in the gospel anymore. And so to save those that are heading in that same direction, we would lovingly stand in front and say, don't do this.

Don't be so devoted to the world. You're using worldly means to save people from the world.

It doesn't work. We need heavenly means to save people from this world. And we have that in the gospel of Jesus Christ that has been given to us in his word.

And it's through the teaching of the word that people come to sanctification. Jesus saying in John 17, 17, sanctify them in your truth.

Your word is truth. So let us remain fixed on the word of God. Let us remain devoted and passionate to the gospel.

Let us be loving of one another. We correct one another with gentleness and lead one another in righteousness for your name's sake.

To God be all the glory and praise and honor forevermore. Amen. Amen.

Check. Check. Doobie doobie doo. Can you see my mom?

Doobie doo wow. Well, that's still too hot. I'll be sipping on that periodically.

I don't know where to go with it. You can set it right there. Just don't spill it into my soundboard. Yeah, that's why I'm. Let me move the soundboard over here.

Can't I have like. Nope. Side table. Unless you want to go around upstairs and get one of those side tables.

I don't want to run anywhere. At any given time. Unless it's away from a bear.

That's a good principle. You know, I still don't want to, but I might be a little bit more motivated.

I might run towards tacos. Would a bear get your energy up? Maybe. Run towards tacos.

Okay, you've got to pep up, babe. We haven't even started. All right,