February 21, 2017 Show with Zachary Conover on “Rescuing Helpless Children from Planned Parenthood’s Slaughterhouse of the Unborn” PLUS Ann McElhinney on “Gosnell: The Untold Story of America’s Most Prolific Serial Killer”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday.

No, it's a Tuesday. That's the first time I think I messed that up in a long time.

Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 21st day of February 2017.

I'm a little hectic right now because our originally scheduled guest,

Jeff Durbin, who many of you expected to hear interviewed today, had to go to an unexpected emergency meeting of some kind, an urgent meeting regarding his church,

Apologia Church in Arizona. So thankfully he was able to get, at last minute,

Zachary Conover to address the same subject that Jeff was going to address. Jeff is a dear brother in Christ, and we thank him for getting us somebody at such late, short notice.

Zachary Conover is Director of Communications for the End Abortion Now Campaign.

He's a member of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona. He's a husband, father, writer, and performer of spoken word on occasion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Zachary Conover.

Hey guys, how you doing? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you fine, brother. Great, glad to be here.

Yeah, well, I originally, as you may know, had invited Jeff to come on the program, and you are obviously somebody who has a lot of hands -on experience with the same issue of the subject of abortion.

First of all, before we even go into that specific area, I want to know something about you, your personal upbringing as a child in regard to your religious faith, if any, and how you came to know the

Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Yeah, absolutely.

So, I was born and raised in a Christian home. God -fearing parents who raised me in church in Christ my whole life, pretty much from the beginning.

As I aged and grew, I started to realize that the outcome of my faith couldn't be based on my parents and their walk with Christ.

That was a work that God had to do in me separately, and up until I would probably say my teenage years were the most formative in high school and early college,

God finally did that work and completely broke me through a crumbling relationship in which

I was completely dependent upon another person and just lost in sin and immorality and things that I wasn't supposed to be finding my value in, completely apart from Christ, professing to believe in Christ and be a

Christian, all on the external. But inwardly, I evidenced that I didn't know

Him, actually, and it came to a point where He found me in my sin, in the wake of that devastation, and He saved me.

He found me, He chased down a rebel, and brought me into His kingdom, and yeah,

He just created a hunger in me and a fire in me for truth, for His Word, for serving

Him. I was under His grace and being brought to the fellowship that I'm currently in right now just by listening to the radio show of Apology of Church.

So that's how I first heard about Jeff, about the gang here, about everything that they were doing in terms of ministry, actually going out into the culture, bringing the gospel into difficult areas that the church in America is a little bit foreign sometimes when you hear the places that we go to, the things that we say, the commitment that we have,

I think, to Scripture and to getting outside of the four walls of the church and actually meeting the culture on their ground and bringing the light of salvation to them.

So that was how I first got hooked up with Apologia, that's a little bit about my background and getting saved and coming to know the

Lord in such a way that He really lured me into this church, this kind of ministry, and really wanting to take the faith into the public sphere, if you will.

So I started listening to the radio, became really convicted about my own apathy, my own laziness in these kinds of areas.

So here I am today by His grace and that's a little bit about me, hopefully, to get you started.

So other than that, you know, I'm a native from Arizona, born and raised.

I'm married to a wonderful woman. I have a baby boy who's now eight months, and yeah, that's a little bit about me.

Well, congratulations on your baby boy, and also your wonderful wife. Yeah.

And in studio with me, who I forgot to mention at the outset of the program, is my co -host,

Rev. Buzz Taylor, and greet our guest, Rev. Buzz. Well, hello. It's good to be on with you. Yeah, you as well, sir.

He might have forgotten me, but I didn't go away. Prayers are not necessarily answered immediately.

Because you have to grow through suffering. But at what age did you come to Christ, then?

I would say it was, if I had to pinpoint a time, I think it would be when

I was 19. Oh, just roughly, yeah. So what did you say, 19? Yeah, I was 19.

It was kind of during that formative experience of my college years, and God, that's when

I could pinpoint that God really got a hold of me at that time. When did you develop this passion for the life of the unborn?

Oh, wow. So the radio show, I mean, Apology Radio, which is basically the teaching arm of Apology at Church, it's how we equip the church all over the globe, the people that listen to do this kind of ministry, get teaching, the biblical

Christianity. It was when I started listening to that, it was actually just a crazy thing.

I had an accident at that time, and I was bound to the couch for about a week straight. I couldn't move, I couldn't sit up.

The problem was in my lower back, and I was actually looking up witnessing videos, how to witness to people who were trapped in cults, and I stumbled onto Apologia, and that's how

I first learned about the ministry that they were doing to the unborn, where they would actually take the gospel in such a way to abortion clinics and stand out on the sidewalk and plead with mothers and fathers for the lives of their children, and bring the gospel into that in a way that I really wasn't familiar with.

I was, it seemed confrontational at first. It seemed, it was a little too aggressive.

But then the Lord really began to do a work in my heart in the area of convicting me of my own indifference towards this whole thing.

I was pro -life, you know, just because, you know, under the label of being Christian, I said, well, yeah, of course,

I have to, you know, stand up for life and defend that when someone asks me, but as far as actually taking that beyond words and putting it into something, you know, what does that look like?

What does that look like if we dress up that theology and walk it down the street, in terms of, you know, getting out there and really making a stand for these, you know, fatherless children?

It was at that moment, hearing about the children that had been saved from the abortion ministry that had been done, hearing about, you know, people out in the public square whose eyes would be opened by Jesus during conversation who'd come to faith.

At that point, when I heard that, a lot of things changed for me. I just developed a real heart for justice, really, to see, you know, justice done for these children, for these babies that are being, you know, systematically slaughtered in our nation.

So, it was at that point where things really started to take a turn. Now, if my memory serves me right,

I believe the last time I spoke to Pastor Jeff Durbin, Apologia Church has been used of God to rescue at least 70 babies from being murdered in Planned Parenthood and other abortion mills.

That's right, and that's what we know of. So, 70 I mean, that's as far as we know, and we only say that because sometimes we'll have just crazy situations where, you know, women will walk up to us or people will walk up to us on the sidewalk and say, you know, hey,

I just wanted to let you know six months ago I was standing out here and I was going to go inside, but I left because you were here.

So, sometimes we can't even confirm, you know, that there were saves or turnaways, and sometimes you have just incredible moments like that where you don't feel like you're making a difference or you're really, you know, putting a dent into the kingdom of darkness at all, and then

God gives you just enough of a light to keep you in the fight. So, yes, that's as many children as we know of.

Praise God for that. We don't take any glory in that whatsoever. All glory goes to God.

He's just concerned with our faithfulness out there. So, it's completely up to Him whether He wants to save children or not, but He's glorified either way.

Well, tell us something about the End Abortion Now campaign for which you are

Director of Communications. Yeah. So, the End Abortion Now campaign is basically a nationwide blanket, if you will, under which we would like the local church, the local body of Jesus Christ to unite under in order to combat abortion in our nation, basically see it ended.

So, we are... I know it might sound a little bit uncharacteristic for, you know,

Christians to talk like this about abortion, but we are wanting to see it ended, and we are doing that through, really, a three -prong approach.

So, we are guiding and equipping churches across the country with resources and with training that they need in order to start their own abortion clinic ministries outside of their local

Planned Parenthoods or Women's Centers. We are trying as best as we possibly can to saturate the media with gospel -related content that really takes this issue head -on, and then we are pushing also for legislation that would outlaw abortion in our nation.

So, this whole movement, if someone were to ask, you know, okay, well, what is this thing all about?

What are you all all about? I mean, really, we would say, number one, we believe very strongly in the scriptures that abortion is murder.

It's a violation of an image -bearer of God. Number two, this whole issue of abortion is a national sin.

It is the shedding of innocent blood by which our nation has fought the righteous judgment of God, and our role in that is to stand in the gap and basically give

God a reason to have mercy on us as a nation, and then our message is all about the gospel, and it's about repentance and faith in Jesus.

It's about bringing that message to the clinics and calling sin, what

God calls sin, and pleading, pleading, pleading with people to repent and believe the gospel and have peace and forgiveness of sin and reconciliation with God, and then we want to also help in any way that we can.

We offer practical help for mothers and fathers considering abortion outside of the clinics, you know, whether it's a place to live, whether it's furniture, financial help, whether it's adoption for their child, pregnancy services, anything that they need, we will help them with, and then lastly, we want to work towards decriminalizing abortion in our nation.

So we believe that it's in direct conflict with the law of God, and that makes this a gospel issue.

So if anyone were to ask what we were all about, there it is right there. And let me announce our email address at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com if you would like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, and by the way,

I want to make sure that you know that the last half hour of the program today, 5 30 to 6 p .m

eastern time, we are going to be interviewing Ann Mikkelhenny. She is the co -author of the book,

Gosnell, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer.

And I'm sure that many, if not most of you know who Kermit Gosnell is, but he is a former abortion provider who was convicted of murdering three infants who were born alive during attempted abortion procedures.

And we are going to hear more about this notorious evil man who apparently is showing absolutely no remorse at all over this at the end of the program, well towards the end of the program,

I should say, during the last half hour. So make sure that you stay tuned all the way through Iron Sharpens Iron today to hear

Ann Mikkelhenny discuss her book, Gosnell, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer.

And our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And if you need to remain anonymous for some reason, perhaps you yourself are contemplating an abortion.

Perhaps you've had an abortion or many abortions. Perhaps you just know someone in your family or someone that you love or care about very dearly who has had an abortion or considering one.

Perhaps you were almost aborted. Well, perhaps it would be an area that would be so private and intimate and personal that you would rather remain anonymous, and we understand that.

So feel free to remain anonymous if that is indeed your preference. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And my co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question for you. Well, yes, you said your third prong is to push for legislation.

And of course, we all heard during the presidential campaign that one of the things Donald Trump said he was going to do was to put, he was going to reverse

Roe v. Wade and put it back to the states. So could you touch on that a little bit and let us know what steps you've taken and what victories you've had or losses concerning trying to change legislation?

Yeah, absolutely. I can try to do my best at this point. Obviously, with the inception of this movement, we're more or less at ground zero are the foundations of doing this.

So we are getting as much counsel as we can in this area. My role specifically within the campaign is to network the local church together, to provide training, to do this kind of ministry.

Really, our pastoral leadership is heading up the reality of the legislation and meeting with local representatives in Arizona in order to propose a bill to do this and basically recognize the life of the unborn child and adhere to that.

But I think that you described it very, very well. Really, the prong is based on the approach that the states need to rise up and basically stand in the gap regardless of a federal opinion of a court.

So of course, referring to Roe versus Wade, the

Constitution tells us that courts don't have the ability to make laws.

So really, for us, it's about doing this at the state level.

It's about proposing legislation that would recognize the unborn child and just force everyone to be consistent with what is already in place, really.

So it's not a novel thing as much as it is calling and pleading for consistency for these children.

And you mentioned a minute ago to the listeners calling in someone who may be even contemplating this, going through it, struggling with it.

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever, especially after talking with as many women as we do, and there's even women in our church, for goodness sake, who have dealt with this sin and who've experienced forgiveness and peace with God.

And one thing I would say is there's forgiveness in Christ, and we would want to abuse any woman who's contemplating this decision.

This is the same thing we tell women every time we go to the clinic. We are here to offer help.

We're here to give you the gospel, and there's forgiveness in Christ even for the sin of abortion. So it just so happens that this particular sin is so rampant and so unrestrained in our nation that it is the issue in which we are pursuing with all of our might, because we believe what the scriptures say.

We believe in the role that we are to have, and it has to be the Church of Jesus Christ who brings in the gospel to this and says, you can be forgiven.

You can have peace with God. And all of that plays a central role in this, so please,

I hope that you can hear the concern and love in my voice that we're not about abusing women.

We believe that women and their children are made in the image of God. They are worthy of value, dignity, and honor, and we want you to know we want you to experience peace with God, and obviously we want to fight the lives of children.

So yeah, I hope that helps a little bit. I'm sure there's a number of our listeners, especially those who are outside of the

United States, that might not even be aware of this, if most of the people on the inside of the border are aware of it, or they seem totally unaware of it.

But I remember learning even in grade school that we have three branches of government.

The executive, the legislative, and the judicial. And when Donald Trump made that statement that he was going to put it back in the states where it belongs, he was basically saying it was the executive branch keeping the judicial branch in check, saying you had no right to pass that as a law.

It needs to go back to the legislature and go through the proper means if it's ever going to a law in the land.

And of course the media that prides themselves on accuracy immediately said he's just trying to undo abortion.

Well, maybe he is, and that'd be fine if he is. I have certainly no trouble with that, but I think people need to understand that he was addressing there the issue that the

Supreme Court never had the right to pass Roe v. Wade apart from the legislature. Yeah, that's right.

Yes, I would completely agree with you. I think that obviously there are a lot of areas in which the country is concerned for his authority as presidency, but in that particular case, absolutely.

And I think we would have a consistently unified message when we say that we're grateful to God for any legislation or any prohibition that's regulated abortion and this horrible crime in every baby that's been saved as a result of it.

But really what the End Abortion Now campaign is about at its bottom is not the regulation of child murder, but the ending of it once and for all.

And that's really what it's all about. So yeah, in that particular case,

I think, yeah, you're right. He was just saying, yeah, it has to go back to the states.

Yeah, well, that is an interesting thing that you brought up because that's something that pro -life advocates disagree over.

I know a number of pro -life advocates who were very upset when they would hear

Ron and Rand Paul address abortion as a state's issue.

And I know that Pastor Jeff is a great admirer of Ron Paul, and I have much high regard for him as well.

I also share some of Pastor Jeff's libertarian leanings. But that is an issue that some, many pro -life activists believe that this should be elevated to a federal law crime, you know, a federal crime.

And so what is your opinion on that? I mean, it almost, I mean, I'm not saying it is in reality doing this, but on the surface, seems like it is diminishing the level of severity of what the crime actually is.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. We want it more consistent with the standard that God has revealed in Scripture.

I mean, He recognizes, I mean, for example, you go to the book of Exodus, and He recognizes the child within the mother as human, as, you know,

His image -bearer, which is why He demands, and the standard is so severe.

The Scripture tells us, you know, when you take life, unjustly, you forfeit your right to live.

So then the book of Genesis and the establishment of government was instituted by God to restrain sin and to protect, you know,

His creatures, those made in His image. So what we're saying is that, you know, we want to be consistent.

A woman that, you know, God forbid, but we hear stories on the news all the time about, you know, parents who have destroyed the lives of their child in whatever way, you know, their 10 -month -old baby girl, and we have to be consistent in our application of Scripture that says that the same, you know, penalty, the same sanction that God calls for in His Word to restore harmony, to the same standard that He demands for all of His image -bearers.

It's just because, you know, the child in the womb is different in size, different in their, you know, how developed they are, where they're located, and how dependent they are on, you know, their mother for survival.

That doesn't change the fact that, you know, biologically, scientifically even, from the moment of conception, that child is different, you know, has their own

DNA, fingerprint, all those things develop, and God says in His Word that that's a person.

So the same standard that we would have, I mean, again, it goes back to consistency.

The same standard that we would have for someone that commits murder should be consistent across the board, and I think that's really what we're trying to have, you know, and just point to and say, look, this is consistent, so that's what we need to honor.

So it's in accordance with what God demands, what He requires, and yeah, that's really what we would be trying to steer that.

So I'm assuming then what you're saying is because, and this may surprise people, but murder is actually a state crime.

It's not a federal crime. There are certain circumstances that involve a murder that makes it a federal crime, but there are unique circumstances.

In fact, I believe there are, let's see, I think there are 10 reasons that a murder becomes a federal crime, but because of the fact that we are living in a day and age where it would seem bordering on the miraculous to make it a federal crime across the board universally in our country, is this a matter of strategy that it would be pushed for this to be a state crime or an option of the states to vote upon?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really think that's, yeah, that's the direction that we would be headed in.

I think, I mean, obviously there's a lot to learn about, especially for someone like me who stands out on, you know, the front lines and does this kind of ministry, someone with a desire who hasn't been doing this ministry for that long, but a desire to become more educated about, you know, these types of things, specifically in our government, you know, to be a good citizen, and to, it's very important,

I think, to point out that as Christians we have to exercise our freedom lawfully.

We have to do it in accordance with what has been established, and that doesn't mean that it's an unjust decree that's been issued from, you know, federal courts that we just go along with.

I mean, we have to obey God according to the scriptures, but, you know, all that to say this is something as well that I'm trying desperately to become more educated into in terms of how things work at the state, at the federal level.

That's why, praise God, I have those above me who are guiding me in that, and who are really tackling this side of the issue too, not just in boots on the ground ministry in front of the clinics, but actually working to propose this kind of legislation and do these things in a way that's consistent as Christians, but also lawfully done too.

We're going to a break right now, so Buzz, you could ask your question when we return. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We already have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered by Zachary Conover.

He is the director of communications for the End Abortion Now campaign, a member of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, and we'll be back after this break with more on this very horrific issue, this blight on America, if not globally, one of the most diabolical and wicked and evil and disgusting things that human beings can do is be involved in infanticide, and not only do it physically with your own hands like an abortionist, but even those that gleefully and enthusiastically and excitedly support this wicked, satanic blight on our globe.

But anyway, we'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away. I am

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. In studio with me is the Rev. Buzz Taylor, my co -host, and we are interviewing

Zachary Conover, and he is Director of Communications for the End Abortion Now campaign.

He's a member of Apology Church in Tempe, Arizona, a husband, a father, writer, and performer of the spoken word.

Now, what exactly do you mean by performer of the spoken word? Is that the opposite of a mime?

I guess you could say that, yeah. It actually uses words to communicate. So, yeah.

If anyone, you know, has ever heard of that kind of art form before, it's really poetry just being spoken to an audience.

So, it can be done, you know, there's spoken word artists who aren't believers, but, you know, the particular, you know, pieces that I've done before have been gospel -centered, you know, saturated with biblical language.

So, you're talking about the kind of thing that, even though it exists today, it was very popular in the 50s and 60s.

The beatniks were very well known to sit in cafes and listen to this kind of thing.

Is this basically what you're talking about, a contemporary version of that? Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

So, I mean, spoken poetry, you know, not quite what my generation would term as freestyling or rapping.

It's more premeditated. You know, it's written down ahead of time. A lot of times it's memorized, and then it's spoken either before a church audience or really whoever will listen.

Do you ever do this in secular settings where there are people, you know, who have a captive audience of people who may hear the gospel?

Um, I haven't personally performed it in a place that wasn't a church setting, but some of the pieces that I've done,

I actually did a particular one on this very issue that we're talking about today. It's up online, and it has to do with the issue of abortion.

So, that's reached quite a few people, I'm sure, that haven't been unbelievers. But as far as taking it to, you know, audiences,

I've yet to do that. And Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question for you. Before the break, we had mentioned, of course, we all are on the same page when we say that abortion is murder, and that you are seeking legal means to end abortion.

And I think just before we get too far away from that thought, it should be also added to the discussion that vigilantism is just as much murder as abortion.

Because I know there are, every once in a while we hear of individuals who like to take things into their own hands, and believe that they are doing

God a big favor by going and bombing an abortion clinic or killing an abortionist.

And we need to understand that, you know, God has a law that, you know, we cannot commit murder.

We are not the legal means, we're not the judge and the So we do not have the right to take the life of the abortionist.

We do have the right, though, to vote and to use all legal means of eliminating it.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. I think that's a really, really great point. I think even, you know, sometimes

Christians can forget about that, we can become so up in arms about this whole subject, because it touches at the very fabric of, you know, what we stand for, life, that we can sometimes become blinded or even try and exercise, you know, this kind of ministry outside of the covering of our local churches.

We can, like you said, you know, take matters into our own hands and become lone rangers in the sense that we try to use unlawful means.

I think if we're consistent, then we have to realize that the

God that we serve not only cares about the results and the end, but also the means, how we get and how we get there to that.

So, and that goes for anything. I mean, that goes for how we preach the word in our local, you know, services, how we do evangelism to unbelievers.

The God not only cares about the end result, but he's sovereign over the means and how we get there, too. So he's given us the blueprints for how to do that in his words.

So it's to that standard that we put our feet on and always try and remain securely fastened to the rock of our salvation that teaches us how to do that.

So you mentioned, you know, lawful means. There were even in this movement, as far as I'm aware, those who were in this fight much, longer than I have been years and years ago who would, you know, employ different tactics at the clinics, the abortion clinics, you know, lay down in front of the door and try and block people from coming in.

And, you know, as good as that symbolism is, you know, after a while, after those people, you know, were arrested so many times for, you know, actually blocking people from coming in,

I think they had a different idea about what would be successful. So that's another thing, too.

It's not just about, you know, doing this the way that God says to do it, but we also have to be intelligent in that and strategic in a sense, too.

Our methodology is gospel, faith, repentance, Jesus will help you with anything that you need, and we obviously have to exercise our right to be at the clinics in a way that is lawful.

Yes. For example, where we go, in our location here in Tempe, we can't be more than 191 feet.

Or I'm sorry, we can't be less than 191 feet away from the door. So as Christians, we have to, you know, exercise our ministry lawfully and remain on the sidewalk and do the best that we can to reach these men and women going into the clinic without, you know, violating laws and, you know, getting removed from the premises, because that would eliminate the point altogether of us being there.

And that would really impede our ministry. Now, what do you have, say you have somebody that is going into the abortion clinic and you divert her and she says, okay, well, what do

I do? And do you have, what do you then, I mean, do you have like, do you show sonograms and things like that?

Do you have a place where you can take her to, you know, she can actually see her baby? And, you know, you know what

I'm talking about. How do you follow up once somebody has decided against an abortion? Sure.

Yeah, really good question. Oftentimes you stand out there, you know, you bring the word of God, you air the gospel out, you plead for them to come talk to you.

And then when they actually do, you do have to be prepared with resources and practical ways that they can be helped.

So we have a list and really a pamphlet, attractive information that we do give them.

I mean, we try and give it to everyone going in and out and warn them about what the clinic does and to stay away.

But in terms of them, we do have a list of local pregnancy centers that will help them that don't perform abortions.

Many of them are gospel -centered. Some aren't. But the main pressing urgency of the issue is, you know, how do we remove that woman really from this place and give them the help that they need?

So number one, we have a list of places. Number two, we do have those kinds of resources that you're outlining where it talks about stages of development in the woman can actually see, you know, at what stage, you know, she is pregnant right now.

She can see, you know, the development of her child and just have a visual illustration of that. And then, of course, we have, you know, standard gospel tracts and those kinds of things.

But really, I mean, anything that they need, if they need someone to drive them to the clinic, we'll put them in the car and, you know, we'll take them there.

Really anything. We're literally standing out there saying, we will give you anything that you need at all.

But the important thing to remember about this site is it's ultimately spiritual. People can be shown as much information as you will give them about the life of the child, about the stages of development, about, you know, biology and science and that it's a child.

But that's why the gospel is so critical, because oftentimes, you know, women going in and even organizations like Planned Parenthood will admit that it is a child.

It is a human being residing within a woman. Yeah, I can remember years ago back in the 1980s, before she was herself a

Christian, my friend Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, who led me to the

Lord in the 1980s later on. But when even when she was an unbeliever, she was very pro -life.

And she knew that her baby, I believe at this time, she only had one child, but she knew that that baby was a baby, a human being, ever since it began to form within her womb.

And she had a friend who was a crack addict. And this woman,

I don't know if she was actually at that time a crack addict, but she had a past as a crack addict.

And apparently was a crack addict when she got pregnant. This friend that my friend

Susan was was speaking with on her pregnancy.

This woman was determined to get an abortion, because she believed that that baby was going to be deformed.

And she didn't really think of it as a baby. She just thought of it as a blob of tissue inside of her, that if it developed and became a baby later on, it would be deformed or something would be radically wrong with it, brain damage.

And my friend Susan had this book, I'm not sure what book it was, but it was a book that contained the photographic evidence of the development of life in the womb, like really vivid photography.

And this was back in the 80s. So I'm sure that it's even much with technology, it's probably much more vivid the kinds of things that you can have today.

But after this, after my friend sat down with this woman and went through this book with her, she said, that's it,

I'm having this baby, this is nothing's going to stop me, I'm having this baby. She was convinced that it was an actual child in her and she gave birth to the baby.

And there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was completely healthy and nothing was wrong at all.

Let me go to a few of our listeners who have questions. We have

Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker of Shepard's Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina.

And I have to enlarge his question because I'm going blind and the font that he used is very tiny.

So if you'd just be patient with me, I should have done this already. I've spent nearly 15 years outside a local abortion clinic preaching the gospel and have had similar encounters and successes as Jesus Christ saves lives.

My question is, how would one deal with the super hardened abortion providers and employees?

Never in those years did we succeed with any measurable results from preaching the gospel and calling those who commit murder or accomplices to the act of abortion to repent and turn from their sin to Christ.

Thank the Lord that the clinic is now closed as the abortionist Dr. Hoffman died sadly and repentant and now likely in eternity in judgment.

So do you have any comments on that? Obviously when he says never in those years did we succeed with any measurable results from preaching the gospel, well he doesn't, he really can't know that 100 % for sure because there might have been things, just as you were saying, you only know of 70 babies that were rescued from abortion clinics through the pro -life ministry of Apologia Church.

But having said that, could you respond to this pastor's comments? Of course.

I would say first, Sterling, thank you so much for your faithfulness, brother, and being out there and preaching the gospel without compromise and seeing people come to Christ.

Here's what I would say. I would say as Christians, we need to really seriously consider what the barometer is, so to speak, of what success looks like out there.

Because when we think success and we're doing this kind of ministry, we think babies saved, people come to Christ.

Those are the two things, you know, and I can relate. We're out there every week.

A lot of times, not just the workers of Planned Parenthood, but the women going in, not any shred or inkling that they have been pricked, their consciences are, you know, working on them in which they feel any kind of remorse for what they're doing.

Sometimes they get out of their cars and walk right through the door without even acknowledging your existence, and that happens more often than not.

You will have, you know, women who are angry, who will, you know, shout profanities at you.

You'll have all those kinds of things, and those are the ones that we tend to feel a little better about, because we realize that God is doing something with their conscience.

They're reminded of the reason that they came there that day. It's the quiet ones that scare me.

So I would say all that to say, Sterling, how do we measure success?

Even if God doesn't choose to save any children, the day that you're out there, the years that you were out there, would it have still been a success?

Absolutely, because however many countless people heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, and God is glorified whether or not they come to him and receive mercy or they receive his justice.

He is glorified either way. The only thing that you need to concern yourself with is being faithful.

We had a, you know, a close, I guess, if you will, friend who came down and visited here.

He goes to Orlando Women's Center five to six days a week. His name is John Barros, and he, you know, came down here, and he was telling us,

I mean, many of the same things. God is glorified in the hardness of their hearts, brother.

So please, don't see your ministry there as unfruitful or unsuccessful in what you did there in bringing the gospel to the clinic workers, to the women that marched right in without even giving any indication to you that they were hearing what you were saying, because in the eyes of your

Heavenly Father, you were being faithful, and that is the measure of success.

Whether or not God is glorified, that is what determines success, and the reason that you know that he was is because it's in his word.

He's revealed to us, you know, we need...that's where we need to be. Proverbs, you know, chapter 24, rescue those who are being led away to death, hold back those stumbling towards the slaughter.

You're to speak out for those who don't have a voice. Proverbs 31 .8. So you were there ministering, so please don't be discouraged or led to believe that in some way it was a failure for that particular aspect, because I'm sure thousands of people heard the gospel, and God is glorified in your ministry there, so I hope that helps you.

Well, thank you very much, Zach, and thank you very much, Pastor Sterling Vanderwercker, for contributing to our program with that question.

We're going to go to a break right now. If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your, at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and obviously, as I said earlier, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, especially if it's regarding a personal and private issue involving abortion, not only involving yourself, but involving those close to you, those that you love or know or care about.

We're going to be right back after these messages, and don't forget, also, the last half hour of this broadcast we have on the program,

God willing, Anne Michelhenny, co -author of Gosnell, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer, so don't go away and make sure you stay tuned until the end of the program.

chrizarnsen at gmail .com, chrizarnsen at gmail .com is our email address, and I ask those that are waiting to have their questions asked and answered to be as patient as possible.

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That's chefexclusive .com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and this is not a jazz program and I'm not

DJ, but I did enjoy listening to that. And thank you Reverend Buzz Taylor for finding that excellent music for the background of that ad.

We are discussing a very important issue today that is a plague, a blight on this globe.

It is the wickedness, the vile satanic evil of infanticide being conducted by those running abortion mills all over the

United States and all over the world. And we are discussing this today with our first time guest,

Zachary. Zachary, who is the

Director of Communications for EndAbortionNow .com.

EndAbortionNow .com is the website for the End Abortion Now campaign.

And he is a member of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, where the ministry that Zachary Conover is involved in is taking place.

And the Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona has been used of God to rescue at least 70 unborn babies from being murdered in Planned Parenthood and other abortion mills.

So we thank God for the work that they are doing. And if you have any questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. But obviously a subject like this lends itself to people desiring to remain anonymous if you are speaking about abortions that you have had yourself, or perhaps are contemplating, or someone that you know and love is either had or contemplating abortion.

So we will respect your preference to remain anonymous. Well, we are back with our discussion.

And we do have some questions that I'd like to get to now.

We have Joe in Slovenia who says, Please ask brother Zachary about the feasibility using electronic billboards to display video of abortions publicly.

This could be played on a continuous loop in thousands of locations around the country to confront the public with the reality of the murder that is abortion.

That is an interesting question because I have been saying on this program for quite a long time that I am just absolutely frustrated that Fox News and all of these conservative or allegedly conservative television programs and networks are not televising abortions.

If they claim to be so committed to the pro -life cause, especially near elections, during election season, why are they not televising an actual abortion that has taken place?

It boggles my mind because if we are supposed to be voting intelligently as a public, any liberal or pro -abortionist that would try to stop such a thing would be revealing that they are hiding a secret.

But I think our friend in Slovenia has an excellent idea with the electronic billboards, but obviously a lot of it would be dependent upon the local government where this was trying to be accomplished.

But if you want to comment on that, Zachary? Sure. There are quite a number of different strategies whereby we can get this out of the public eye.

The media is obviously the biggest. That's the way that our culture communicates.

That's the way that ideas are shared. My generation especially goes to Twitter for their news source, not for the local news network.

But I would say absolutely we are not opposed to doing something like that where we actually depict the reality of what happened during the process of surgical abortion and the many other means by which this is happening in our nation.

A lot of those pro -life news sources are doing that right now.

They're putting those kinds of visual demonstrations together of what actually takes place in there.

One of the things that really drew me into this fight was seeing actually what happens and the process by which it's described.

Sometimes it's a very graphic video, but I think for those of us in this fight who are trying to be, again, consistent, if we were living at the time of the

Holocaust in Germany, would we want to depict the reality of what was happening in there to the public?

The answer is yes. As painful and as much as you want to look away from the reality of what's going on at the site that you see, this is what's actually happening.

Drawing people into that and telling the truth about what abortion is is actually essential to this ministry.

I think overall it's essential to this fight in our nation. We have to put this heinous evil in front of the public.

We have to demonstrate what this is as uncomfortable as it might be. Absolutely, I would agree that it's very important to do that because oftentimes we go out to the clinics with signs that depict that reality and those who would identify as pro -choice, the

Planned Parenthood supporters, often can't even look at the signs. They won't look.

They'll shut their eyes. They'll blare loud music. They'll yell and scream and sing and dance, but they really have a hard time looking into the signs and seeing the pictures of children that have been destroyed.

So we have to remember that this is an issue of us being rebels before God.

There has never been more of an abundance of information in our culture about biology, about the life of the child inside the womb as what we have right now, and yet people still, by the droves, march into a clinic and destroy their child.

So we have to remember that it's not an issue of knowledge wholeheartedly.

It is an issue of repentance, and we have to call people to that. And again, it goes back to that being a spiritual fight.

Information does not change the heart. Only Jesus can do that, and he has prescribed the way in which that is to take place, and that's by the preaching of his gospel.

Amen. Yes, because you can have a pro -life individual who is marching on pro -life lines and marches and boycotting abortion clinics who will still be in hell if he does not receive the gospel.

Being in defense of the life of the unborn is not a ticket to heaven.

That's just something that is a normal and logical response to someone who has eyes and ears and any moral compass at all to oppose these things.

But just as there are lost people who profess to be Christian, and lost people in many prevalent

Christian denominations because they themselves have never truly been given a new heart by Christ, the gospel is the most important thing, even above and beyond trying to bring an end to abortion.

And that is actually an area I want to touch on in a minute because it's unfortunate that there are many pro -life and conservative individuals who are professing to be

Christian who become modern -day ecumenists and who have put the gospel, an important doctrine in the scriptures, on a lower level of importance than the pro -life movement.

But the only thing that I can think of that might be a problem with Joe and Slovenia's idea about a billboard is that it could actually,

I'm assuming, cause traffic accidents because people would be perhaps so shocked or whatever by seeing these things that they may wind up injuring themselves or others.

But I am completely in favor of televising these things regularly and I think that we should just have an outpouring of mail to Fox News insisting that they do that because it's interesting how

Sean Hannity, whenever he brings up Hillary Clinton, he'll bring up her allegiance to the late

Senator Robert Byrd who was in the Ku Klux Klan. But Robert Byrd renounced his membership in the

Klan. I don't know why he doesn't bring up the founder of Planned Parenthood consistently,

Margaret Sanger, who was a racist and who wanted to eliminate the black race from the face of the earth through sterilization and later abortion because that wasn't legal at the time she started

Planned Parenthood. But she was an evil woman and a racist so she's the really one that should be brought to the attention of the public because Hillary Clinton proudly received the

Margaret Sanger award and all these pro -choice or pro -abortion liberals view her as a hero of feminism,

Margaret Sanger. This is not an exaggeration or something that I've made up.

She literally had Nazis before we as a country were involved in World War II. She had scientists in the

Nazi party in Germany writing for her magazine. But we do have

Tyler who actually brings up exactly what I was just talking about.

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island says, Is it true that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a racist who believed in eugenics?

And that's absolutely true. And do you have anything further to add to that, Zachary? I would 100 % affirm everything you just said,

Chris. I mean, it's well known these things aren't hidden under a mountain of reading.

You know, anyone with internet access can look up everything that they need to know about her from the things that she said to the things that she advocated for, of course, everything that you said.

But if you notice something that's interesting now, also her followers, those who praise

Planned Parenthood, that philosophy, everything that she believed in, has been passed down to them, whether or not they realize it, because that's how they argue.

They argue for the unsanctioned, unapologetic right to destroy baby boys and baby girls in the womb because of their value or lack thereof.

And that was really how Margaret Sanger's philosophy on life went, is you have value if you're useful.

Whereas in the scripture tells us that all of us are intrinsically valuable. We're valuable because we're made in the image of God, regardless of our economic class, regardless, you know, mental, physical disabilities, all those things, our age.

It doesn't matter. So it's interesting now, I would just add one thing is you see now, and I certainly do, because we're out there every week, those are the kinds of arguments that we hear from, you know,

Planned Parenthood supporters who would say, because the child will grow up in poverty, then you should have the right to kill it.

So it's not a stretch. And that woman definitely impacted the world in a negative way.

And her philosophy is still being propagated. As I said, it's not about information.

It's about repentance. And anyone who knows the origins of Planned Parenthood and what

Margaret Sanger stood for, the information is out there. The question is, how is the heart receiving that information?

And by which filter? And we were saying before,

I was saying before that the gospel is the primary thing.

Do you not agree that it is a danger when people, because of the fact that there is something that really attacks the heart of a person, especially perhaps even the one who has been enlightened after they are born again, but it attacks the heart to know that these innocent, helpless, the most fragile and helpless among us, by the millions are being ripped apart, literally torn to pieces in their mother's womb, which is supposed to be a sanctuary for these little humans while they're developing, that sometimes because of the emotion involved in this and the blatant palpable evil that is so tangibly realized that we can have a tendency, and many do, to step over the boundaries of denominational or religious barriers and rally with people to end abortion in such a manner where the gospel and the importance of the gospel is diminished.

Obviously, I am not advocating that Christians not be involved in any way with non -Christians who are pro -life, but as our mutual friend

Dr. James R. White has said, he used to be, many years ago, involved in a major pro -life activist organization and he stepped down from involvement because he was not permitted to spread the gospel to people of different religions there.

Now that is something that's of primary importance, isn't it? Absolutely. This is the dividing line, no pun intended for Dr.

White, but it is. Yeah, I have bad jokes.

Well, let me add, before we go, because we're running out of time, I want to make sure that you give some practical advice to people, since you and Pastor Jeff Durbin and other folks at Apologia Church, who have a pro -life ministry, are speaking to women about to have their babies murdered on a weekly basis, and you have experienced the face -to -face confrontations with these women.

Can you tell us some advice, some practical advice, on how to approach these women? Because obviously, there are people out there who have zeal but no wisdom, and there are people out there that have actually, speaking of Dr.

White, have put a real, they have really damaged the evangelistic efforts to Mormons that Alpha Omega Ministries, James White's ministry, used to have on a regular basis at the

Mormon temple and other places where Mormons have gathered for major events when they were there evangelizing and passing out tracts.

There have been fundamentalist groups and independent groups claiming to be Christian who just do nothing but scream hate and nastiness and mockery and, you know, acting in a way that you never see

Christ and his disciples behaving. But do you have any practical implications on how to approach these women?

Absolutely. I would say, first of all, just very quickly, that's often the conception of Christians in our culture, hearing about other

Christians doing a ministry like this, saying it is too confrontational, and then identifying us with other, you know, like you said, fundamentalist groups, but just because this type of ministry has been done wrongly in the past doesn't mean that we aren't called to do it.

So I would say that, first of all, there is a biblically faithful, gospel -centered way to take the truth about abortion into the culture, and as far as practical advice for anyone wanting to go out to the clinic and start doing this kind of ministry, please prepare your heart beforehand.

Ask yourself why you want to do something like this. Is it for your glory or is it for the glory of Christ?

Because this kind of ministry isn't one that you make a lot of friends doing.

So it's based on love for God and love for neighbor. That's really what it all comes down to, you know, the two greatest commandments.

You love the Lord your God with all your heart, all mind, and strength, and you love your neighbor as yourself, and it's the love of God.

You have to have something transcendent that keeps you going, and it's love for God, which is the reason why we go, and it's love for neighbor, the smallest neighbor among us.

So I would say, practically, prepare yourself before you go, and just go.

Go. Make sure you're under the covering of your local church. It's very, very important that you're accountable to authority, that this type of ministry is done in a way in which your life is able to be looked into and seen, and you have people that can, you know, call you out in error, who can guide you, who can, you know, give you wisdom, people that have been in this fight a lot longer than you have.

And then, in terms of being out there, you have to be ready for every situation under the sun.

You know, you have to be aware of what the laws are, the lay of the land, so you don't break those, but I hope that's a good start anyways, and that's what this comes down to, is love for God, love for neighbor.

I was terrified the first time that I went out to the clinic, not knowing what to say or what to do, or even knowing where to stand, but God shows up, and children have been saved, the gospel has gone forth, and you realize pretty quickly that when you're out there, it's not about you.

It's not about you at all. It's not about how you're seen. It's about faithfulness to God.

So those are just some quick things off the top of my head, Chris. And before you go, any memorable moments that you can recall, specifically regarding women who have changed their minds at the abortion clinics?

Oh, I mean, we've had women, like I said earlier on the show, that will just come back after a period of time and just thank us, say that they were so grateful, and they'll have a child with them.

And at the time that we spoke with them, you know, the child was inside of them. So one thing we always try to do is call out to the women and say, you know, if you come outside, we'll show you the pictures of the children that were saved from this location.

They're beautiful, you know, beautiful twin girls, young boy.

You know, these are women that we followed up with. We've helped in our church. You know, they chose life that day, and because of that, they have beautiful children.

And, you know, we'll show them the pictures and say, this is what you're missing out on.

And we asked the tractors, you know, at this point, if these clinics would have had their way, these children would be dead today, but they weren't because we were here.

So that's really what it comes down to. There's a lot of moments out there, but I hope that helps your audience a little bit.

Yes. And we have to go now, and I know that your organization has a website, and that is endabortionnow .com,

correct? That's correct, and it's currently undergoing a lot of work. We're getting everything ramped up to equip local churches across the country to do this kind of ministry outside their local abortion clinics.

So if you'd love to know more, I believe you can contact us through there, and we'd love to equip the church to once and for all see this awful thing put underneath the feet of Jesus.

So, yeah, that's what it's all about. And you could also go to apologiachurch .com,

that's apologiachurch .com, and apologiaradio .com. Thank you so much,

Zach, and we look forward to your return to Iron Sharp as Iron. All right, guys, I had such a good time talking with you today.

Thanks for having me. All right, God bless. And coming up any moment now, we're going to have

Ann Mickelhenny, God willing, on the program. She's going to be discussing her book, Gosnell, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer.

So if you have any questions for her, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the last half hour of today's program is

Anne Mikulhiny. She is co -author of the book Gosnell, the Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Anne Mikulhiny. It's good to be here. Thank you. Well, tell us something about your own background,

Anne, and how you became involved with not only the writing of this book, but also how you became involved in a major motion picture starring

Dean Cain that is going to be on this very issue. Yeah, I mean, we came across this. We're both journalists, myself and my husband, who is also a co -author on the book, and we came across the story very much by accident.

This is apparently a local crime story in Philadelphia. My husband was in Pennsylvania with our last documentary, which is called

Frack Nation, and heard that there was a local crime story.

There was some crime that people were talking about in Philadelphia, went to the courtroom, saw the most horrific evidence being presented to the jury, so heard incredible evidence and testimony being given from the stand, and then shockingly turned around to realize that basically there were no journalists covering the trial.

And this is what first interested us, and we initially decided to make a movie. We crowdfunded that movie and got to, so far we're still crowdfunding, $2 .3

million from 29 ,000 people. People can go to GosnellMovie .com and give a dollar and join that group.

And then during the research for the screenplay, we heard so many stories about the details of this case that we realized none of them, you know, not all of them could come into the movie, could be covered in the movie, but people should know them, and that's what inspired us to write the book.

And this is a shocking story of murder in plain sight that really ought to be read by everyone in America.

In fact, I want to read a commendation by Michelle Malkin. Many of our listeners who watch

Fox News may be familiar with Michelle Malkin, who's a frequent guest. She is founder of Twitchy and author of Invasion and Culture of Corruption.

She said, Hollywood could not conjure up a villain more barbaric and cold -blooded than true -life serial killer

Kermit Gosnell. Investigative journalists Ann McElhenney and Philem McAleer take you face -to -face with Philadelphia's baby butcher in this gripping expose, but the story is especially chilling because he did not act alone.

The true horror lies in Gosnell's ghoulish gallery of enablers, feckless government bureaucrats, abortion radicals, and an

AWOL media. McElhenney and McAleer are unflinching torchbearers of truth.

This book is a public service. That's a pretty powerful description. Now, this was all exposed from a drug bust, am

I right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was extraordinary. You know, this guy might have continued to kill up to this very day if it weren't for one extraordinary detective,

Detective Jim Wood, who's an undercover narcotics officer still operating in the Philadelphia area, who accidentally came across this butcher, this

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, in a routine drug bust. I mean, he was pursuing people, you know, these doctors who write up these fake prescriptions for oxycodone and cough syrup, that sort of hillbilly cocaine that they call it, or heroin that they call it.

And through that investigation, discovered that Kermit Gosnell, you know, was operating a pill mill, was giving out these prescriptions.

And, you know, he started to, you know, do some undercover work, started talking to some of the people who worked there and discovered that a woman had died,

Karnamaya Monger, a Bhutanese refugee who had spent 20 years in Nepal in a refugee camp, only to come to America and be dead four months later.

So he, you know, he started to become really, you know, exercised about her death, because she was dead and buried, and no one seemed to care.

And no one seemed to, you know, investigate and work out what exactly had happened to her. And through his investigation of the death of Karnamaya Monger, he discovered all of this case and all of these, the fact that Gosnell was running this hellhole, that he delivered babies alive and would cut their necks with scissors, that he kept trophies, he had row upon row of babies' feet kept in jars, that there were cats walking around the clinic in the procedure rooms that he was eating while doing these procedures, that the place reeked of urine, that there was cat feces on the floor everywhere.

Just an extraordinary, awful, awful nightmare situation that one, as I said, one extraordinary detective, an undercover narcotics officer, only for him, none of this would have been would have been revealed, and Gosnell will be killing today.

Instead of that, he is sitting facing, you know, he's got three life sentences in a prison in Pennsylvania.

Now, why was he only convicted of the murders of three infants, as you were saying, there were rows and rows of body parts?

Yeah, well, in the end, I think there's a couple of reasons, but, you know, in the end, it was easier for them to get him on the three counts that had the most evidence connected with them, and I think there was also, we were certainly told that the police in Philadelphia didn't want him to be tried for a larger number, which might affect their homicide rates for the city, and that would look very bad on paper.

So, in the end, he was only done for three, but it's put him away for three life sentences, so we won't be, you know, he won't be seeing the light of day again, but we certainly know from the grand jury report, which was published, that, you know, that the grand jury, who also went through this evidence over a very long period, said he was definitely responsible for hundreds, if not thousands of murders during his 30 -year killing spree.

Wow. Now, did the women who gave birth to these murdered babies, these, at least these three women, did they come forward and testify?

Yes, in a couple of cases, yeah, the actual mothers came forward and were able to describe the last days of their pregnancies,

I suppose. I mean, you know, one of the things that the jury were told by the prosecution and also by, you know, the defense was that, you know, that the case was not about why the mothers went there, because obviously the mothers went there and wanted their babies to be killed, but so the jury had to distinguish and had to say to themselves, well, we just want to know if the babies were murdered, and of course this became a big issue in the case, because the distinction between a legal abortion and an illegal murder, when the jury got to hear about it, was so very, so incredibly close that it was, it almost seemed kind of impossible, because, you know, in order to clarify things for the jury, they had two legal abortionists came in and gave testimony and described what a legal abortion was like, and for the jury, the distinction was, you know, it was marginal.

I mean, what he did illegally in murdering those children outside the womb is what is done legally inside the womb on a daily basis all over the country, and I think the jury were really taken aback by that, and certainly the jury that we spoke to and felt that they they'd all changed their mind about abortion, having gotten to hear all this evidence up close and personal for so long.

Wow. Now, were these babies intentionally delivered prematurely and then murdered, or were these just quote -unquote accidental births that he just later murdered them?

No, no, no, he was, he was intentionally, he filled the women up with this thing called cytotec, which basically induced them to give birth.

He was not a qualified OBGYN, he was a medical doctor, and he hadn't got an OBGYN qualification, so he, you know, it was easier.

I think there was a kind of an expediency to this, and he's very, you know, everyone, you know, that we spoke to, and certainly in speaking to him, he has, he's very, very greedy, he has, you know, 17 houses, they found a quarter of a million dollars in cash in his home, you know, and lots and lots of unopened boxes, he's big into shopping, lots of, you know, coats and mink coats and stuff like that, so it was expedient for him, it was quicker, and he didn't even turn up to the clinic until nighttime, so during the day, he was at another abortion clinic in Delaware, and so during the day, his unqualified staff, and when

I say unqualified, I really mean unqualified, women with seventh grade educations and hepatitis

C, one woman with HIV, you know, alcoholic, you know, drug -addicted women that he had working for them would drug up these patients during the day, so women would come all day, they would be drugged up with this cytotec by these uncompletely unqualified people that worked for him, and then he would come in the evening, but during the day, they filled them up so much with cytotec that the babies would basically fall out, and we have a lot of testimony of that kind of activity happening, of babies basically falling out, babies were alive, swimming in toilets, squirming, crying, and then

Godzilla would come in, and he would finish them off, but what he did also was he trained the staff that if the baby fell out when he wasn't there, that they could also dispose of them by doing this, stabbing them in the back of the neck, and many of them did that, and many of them went to prison for that exact crime.

Wow, many of them? How many approximately? About six of them went. Now, they did mostly short sentences, however,

Steve Massoff, who was a kind of, you know, he had a medical degree, but hadn't gotten his residency, and who worked for Godzilla, he's in prison for 15 years, and he was sort of treated slightly differently to the other people because he was not untrained, he was a person, highly educated, and somebody,

I suppose, as they say, who should have known better, and he continued to work there, he continued to help with these murders, and he faced a lengthy sentence because of that, but nobody faced a longer sentence than Godzilla, who was the mastermind behind the whole thing.

Now, your subtitle, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer, the term serial killer, probably most often in the minds of our listeners, in the minds of the public in general, it conjures up ideas of someone who is getting a sexual thrill out of murder, or some kind of evil pleasure that they are deriving from this.

Do you know if, or can you surmise that there was something beyond a man, in a very warped and twisted way, thinking that he was benefiting women, and helping them, perhaps preventing them from entering into further poverty, or whatever the nonsensical reasons the feminists and the pro -abortionists give for murdering babies?

Is there anything beyond what a typical abortionist might experience that you know of, or at least that you can surmise from doing the investigation that you did?

Yeah, I mean, we have a whole chapter in the book, and by the way, people can get the book by going to Godzillabook .com,

Godzillabook .com, and they'll bring them directly to the landing page, and we've sold out on all platforms the first week the book came out.

I mean, we have a chapter devoted to the whole idea of him as a serial killer, and the profile of serial killers, and most of what people know about serial killers is incorrect.

I mean, there's the idea that they're antisocial, you know? The truth is, they have to be very social and very plausible in order to get to do it for so long.

This man was doing it for 30 years, so he needed not to be detected, and to be able to do it, murder, as we say, murder in plain sight.

So, you know, he's, I mean, certainly in meeting him, and I've been in the prison with him for many hours,

I mean, he is very, he's extremely narcissistic, has an incredibly elevated notion of his importance in the world, of his intelligence, of his talent.

He has a very odd aspect where he doesn't have, you know, he seems completely immune to his surroundings, very jovial.

He sang to me at one stage in the prison in French, you know, so very, very, very peculiar.

I mean, I think there's definitely a sense in which he was very greedy, and I think there's a sense in which a lot of serial killers have, you know, there's a kind of a power play that's operational, that they like to be playing the part of God, and I think we, you know, in meeting him,

I would feel that he does consider himself almost quasi -divine. He speaks about himself with such, in such, you know, lofty terms.

He's so intelligent, I'm so intelligent, and he tells you that, you know, I could have been a concert pianist, let me sing to you, you know, very, very odd, and he has an obsession with his feet, and talks about his feet a lot, how big his feet are, and then shows off his big hands, a very, you know, he's a very disturbed person, but I mean,

I can also see very easily how he seemed quite plausible, and how people, you know, kind of were taken in by him, and I thought he was a great fellow.

Yeah, well, do you have any knowledge as to why he kept all those baby parts?

Well, you know, they do talk about, you know, serial killers are very, are notorious for keeping trophies, so it would seem that that was what was going on here, that somehow kept trophies, and he named, he put the names of the mothers on the jars with the feet, and you know, a lot of medical experts were called during the trial, and none of them could come up with an explanation for why he kept the feet.

You know, it was for DNA purposes, a small piece of tissue is sufficient, and in one case, in one particular child's case, he kept both of the baby's feet, and that woman, in fact, had to be contacted later by the police, who had to tell her the shocking news that he had retained the baby's feet that he had aborted from her, and, or murdered.

In that case, they weren't able to tell, because all that was left was actually the feet, and very disturbing for her, and I know that she did get those feet recovered back to her, and was able, she was able to actually have a burial for them.

Well, it's interesting that you said that he had a fascination with his own feet, and here he has jars of baby's feet,

I mean... Yes, and he also talked during the interview, and we have that in the chapter on meeting the monster, where I describe exactly what it was like to meet him.

He talked about being in Auschwitz, and he had visited Auschwitz, and he talked about the fact that he was very, very impressed with the word he used.

He was impressed by the fact that the Nazis had kept the little baby shoes, the shoes of all the children, and he found it really impressive, and I thought, of all the words you could possibly find to describe a large, large collection of small children's feet, of murdered children, of their little shoes,

I thought the word impressive was certainly the one that most people would not use. Yeah, well, did he even tell you why he went to visit the

Holocaust sites? He said, well, he had a whole explanation of the fact that he, you know, had a huge interest in Jewish history, and a lot of, yeah, he said a lot of friends of his were

Jewish, and he was, apparently he was in Poland to give a lecture on addiction, because he apparently is an addiction specialist, a drug addiction specialist, and he went to an international seminar in Poland, and during that time, you know, happened to be there, and had always wanted to go and visit

Auschwitz, that's what he said, he'd always wanted to visit Auschwitz, and very fascinated by, you know, and very odd,

I mean, his whole affect, as I said, you know, we obviously, a lot of your listeners will know that we've just seen

Mike Pence, Vice President Mike Pence, just been to Auschwitz, and was very affected by it, and spoke very beautifully, you know, about his experience there.

I can tell you there was no comparison between that experience and the experience of Dr. Kermit Gosnell on his visit to Auschwitz.

Now, do you know anything from your interviews with him? Was he ever, at any point in his life, opposed to abortion before he started to get involved in it?

Was he at all, in any way, squeamish about the idea? Was there anything that he viewed it, that he viewed negatively about this practice before he began?

No, no, absolutely not, absolutely not, and in fact, if people buy the book, and as I said, they can go and get it at gosnellbook .com,

we actually have reproduced at the back of the book some of his letters. Gosnell writes letters to us, and he phones us all the time, but we've reproduced some of the letters at the back of the book, exactly, you know, we just, you know, have literally printed the letters that he's sent us, where he, you know, has poetry about abortion, where he has scripture passages saying, you know, that abortion is really a good thing, and that's kind of God -ordained, and that it's, you know, it's a proper, you know, it's an okay, and it's fine.

I don't know what scripture verse he could have possibly found to come up with that idea. Yeah, well,

I mean, yeah, he has a whole list of scripture passages, as I said, at the very back of the book. I mean, he's an extraordinary guy, and he's, you know, he lives in this world where he has a justification for everything.

Now he's in prison serving three life sentences. I don't know if fellow inmates view him the same way that they typically will view a pedophile.

You typically, a pedophile goes into prison with a death sentence hanging over him because the other prisoners are looking for the opportunity to brutalize or murder the pedophile.

How do they view this man being a murderer, a serial murderer of little babies? Well, well, according to him, he's getting on fabulously, and he has great friends there in the prison, that's what he said, and when

I visited him, I, you know, I had expected that it would be behind plexiglass that I'd be holding a telephone and all of that.

It wasn't at all like that. It was like a rec room. It was like a, you know, a coffee rec room in a, you know, in a school or a hospital or something like that, in a government building.

Very pleasant, and everyone was there. There were all the other prisoners were there meeting whoever they were meeting, and were able to move around quite freely, and, you know, so very, very, very odd.

I mean, the whole thing was extremely odd and very disturbing for me. Now, how has his family,

Gosnell, Kermit Gosnell's family reacted to this? Well, you know, it's interesting.

He talks about them like as though they're all very much in touch, and that he knows a lot about what's going on. However, when we visited him in the prison, no one from his family had visited him.

Nobody, nobody, no person of any kind had visited him. We were the first visitors, and that was like more than a year into his sentence.

Wow. Now, is he married? Does he have children? Yes, he has seven children from three different relationships, but he's presently married, and his wife is

Pearl. In fact, she went to prison for a short period as well as part of this, you know, as part of this trial, as part of this case, but he has, yeah, no, he's, in fact, his daughter was, you know, in high school when all this happened, and apparently is in college now, and we talk, we have, you know, we describe all of that, and we describe the different children he has.

One of his children changed his name by depot because he didn't want, he was saying it was hard for him to get a job with the name

Gosnell, you know, but another one of his sons got into trouble with the law, burglarized the house, but he, you know, but yeah, he has a family, and they seem to be, you know, not being in touch with him from everything that I know, and his, the amount of, you know, energy he spends getting in touch with me and getting in touch by letter and by telephone indicates to me that he, you know, doesn't have much company from the outside.

Now the thing that's fascinating about this is that most people, perhaps even many if not most pro -abortionists, will look upon what he did as evil just because the babies were born, but it is, it is really inconsistent and illogical because our former president was even against the

Infant Born Alive Act where infants born alive quote quote accidentally in an abortion attempt, the idea of the

Infant Born Alive Act is that they were to be, their life was to be preserved in any way possible through medical means, whereas President Barack Obama apparently was very aware that there were hospitals in Chicago when he was senator that were babies being born alive during an abortion attempt were being just stored in linen closets and boiler rooms or wherever just left in boxes to just starve to death and die.

Do you see the irony to this that you have people, even a president who was not in favor of the

Infant Born Alive Act and yet we have this man being publicly portrayed for what he is, a serial killer?

Yeah, no, I mean of course, of course, I mean it's, I mean it's kind of extraordinary and President Barack Obama, his record on this subject isn't, isn't, is not impressive and he was obviously in favor of the partial, partial birth as well.

He, you know, he was, he thought that that was a great idea. I mean, for me it's kind of, I think,

I think in a lot of cases I just wonder if he was very educated on the subject. I think that there's a liberal, you know, there's a liberal desire to be in favor of this pro -choice movement and whatever a woman wants and a woman's right over her body and all that sort of stuff which it does all sound very reasonable.

It's when you get into the nitty -gritty of things and work out exactly what they do to the baby in, in the womb or even partially outside the womb in the case of partial birth abortion that it becomes a little bit more tricky,

I think, to be so pro -choice. I think people suddenly think that's not something I would like and I don't like the idea that's happening in my country.

I think people do change their mind if they get an education. I'd like to think that Barack Obama would have gotten, you know, could have changed his mind if he got an education.

I'm being very generous, I think, there but I think that in the case of President Trump it's very, very interesting that he did get an education and because of the education he got he's become very pro -life.

Yes, he was pro -choice at one time, yeah. And he was pro -choice at one time and I think that's something, I read a very good thing about President Trump today that I really liked.

They said that his inside voice is the same as his outside voice, if everyone gets what I mean by that, that he said, you know, that whereas, you know,

Hillary Clinton's inside voice and outside voice has been very, very different. And so when I hear President Trump talking about abortion, he sounds to me like someone who's just literally worked out what's going on and he thinks it's shocking and he got an education and, you know, that's what

I feel is the benefit of this book. People get an education that maybe they didn't have before and it changes people.

We've had letters already from people who are pro -choice who said they've changed their mind about abortion having read the book.

So I'd really recommend people to buy a copy, buy multiple copies. And one thing that people are doing is they're buying copies and then they're reading it in public and sending us photographs and they can send photographs of themselves reading it at Gardner Movie Facebook page and I'd love to see that.

And we get people, you know, if you read it in public people will see the cover and the cover is very dramatic with the scissors and with Gardner's face superimposed on the scissors.

So people see the cover and they're like, what are you reading? What's that about? And I think one of our biggest ambitions is that people would just know who

Gardner is, but that the name Gardner would become a known name. You know, people know who

Michael Brown is. I mean, Michael Brown was a thug, you know, who assaulted an immigrant in a corner shop and then tried to beat a police officer to death and died during that melee.

But he's apparently looked upon by a lot of people in some kind of a martyr, which is very, very, very odd.

Whereas, you know, Samika Shaw, who died at this awful abortion clinic, no one's ever heard of her.

Karnamaya Monger, the Bhutanese refugee, no one's ever heard of her who died at that clinic. And the name

Kermit Gosnell is not a household name in America. Well, we're certainly doing everything we can to make sure it is. And the people know what went on in plain sight in the

United States of America, in Philadelphia, which is not a backwater, which is a progressive, very, very progressive city.

And that they'll know that a lot of the reason why Gosnell got to do this for so long was because of a

Republican governor, a Catholic governor, Tom Ridge, you know, who became the governor of Pennsylvania in 1995, running on a on a pro -choice ticket.

And he said to the government agencies responsible for the health and protection of the people of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, hands off the abortion clinics.

They didn't go. They never went. They never inspected in 17 years, even though the bodies were piling up downstairs.

Well, I thought it'd be appropriate to bring up Norma Lee McCorvey, who just passed away over the weekend, who is the

Roe in the famous or infamous Roe versus Wade decision, who later became pro -life.

Did she become aware of your book before she passed away? I don't, I don't actually know the answer to that.

And I've never met her myself. But it's a fascinating story. Her story is really fascinating.

I mean, she had a very dramatic, you know, conversion on this issue, as well as I think, in her own faith.

And what an amazing, what an amazing person. That is, it is interesting that the whole reason that why the

Roe versus Wade issue came up was, it was based on a lie. The whole story was made up, but she obviously repented of her involvement in that and became pro -life.

Well, tell our listeners about the movie that's coming up. Yeah, so we've got a movie as well. We've made a movie called, also called

Gosnell. We're looking for distribution. Shocking to tell your listeners, but Hollywood are not anxious for this film to get out.

So we have to do an independent release, which involves us collecting, you know, getting investment from, you know, serious investments.

So we're, we're working on that right now. But anyone who wants to give us a couple of dollars, they can go to gosnellmovie .com.

29 ,000 people so far have contributed at any amount. Just turn up and be part of this community.

It should be bigger than 29 ,000 people. I think this issue matters more. So people can go to gosnellmovie .com

and give a dollar and go to gosnellbook .com and buy a copy for, you know, for a friend.

And have you received any opposition to the book? I would think that even pro -abortionists would be too embarrassed to publicly oppose what you've written.

But is there any backlash? No, not really. I mean, the closest thing to backlash was that the

New York Times, we sold out on all platforms by two days after the book came out.

We were the number three most sold book in America for those first two days.

And the New York Times did not put us on their hardback bestseller list. They put us on another, you know, less, less salubrious list.

I mean, we've still got the New York Times listing as a bestseller, but they didn't put us on the list. They should have. Because apparently the

New York Times bestseller list is not comprised of bestsellers. That's a shocker. They do it based on the numbers.

They do it based on a thing they call context. And then they helpfully don't explain what context means, which allows them to celebrate and to, you know, to put high on their list books that, you know, that are written by their own journalists or by people that they kind of like.

But they certainly didn't like this book and they left it off the nonfiction hardcover list completely, which is wrong.

But, you know, people don't want this story out. We know that when the story initially broke in Philadelphia, the local, you know, the local media covered it, but national media were very, very reluctant to cover it.

So we're very glad that the story is getting out now. So people can go to GosnellMovie .com

and GosnellBook .com and we so appreciate it. Isn't it amazing that the liberal media doesn't even want to talk about something that even they must recognize is clearly murder, in fact, infanticide?

Absolutely. Well, it's GosnellBook .com and GosnellMovie .com. That's G -O -S as in Sam, N as in Nancy, E -L -L,

GosnellBook .com and GosnellMovie .com. If you wouldn't mind, Anne, staying on after the program ends, just so I could speak with you a bit, because I'd like to reschedule another movie, another interview with you when the movie comes out, if you could hold on just for a couple of minutes.

Absolutely. Thank you. Well, I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to thank my first guest today, who thankfully came to the rescue when

Pastor Jeff Durbin was unable to be on the program. So, Zachary, we thank you for filling in for Pastor Jeff Durbin, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on Iron Trap and Zion Radio.