February 21, 2017 Show with Zachary Conover on “Rescuing Helpless Children from Planned Parenthood’s Slaughterhouse of the Unborn” PLUS Ann McElhinney on “Gosnell: The Untold Story of America’s Most Prolific Serial Killer”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who

are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday.

No, it's a Tuesday.

That's the first time I think I messed that up in a long time.

Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 21st day of February

2017.

I'm a little hectic right now because our originally scheduled guest,

Jeff Durbin, who many of you expected to hear interviewed today, had to

go to an unexpected emergency meeting of some kind, an urgent meeting regarding

his church, Apologia Church in Arizona, so thankfully he was able to get at

last minute Zachary Conover to address the same subject that Jeff was going to

address.

Jeff is a dear brother in Christ and we thank him for getting

us somebody at such late, short notice.

Zachary Conover is Director of Communications for the End Abortion Now

campaign.

He's a member of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona.

He's a husband, father, writer, and performer of spoken word on occasion.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Shepherd's Iron, Zachary

Conover.

Hey guys, how you doing?

Can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you fine brother.

Great, glad to be here.

Yeah, well, I originally, as you may know, had invited Jeff to come on the

program and you are obviously somebody who has a lot of hands -on experience with the same

issue of the subject of abortion.

First of all, before we even go into that specific area, I want to know something about you,

your personal upbringing as a child in regard to your religious

faith, if any, and how you came to know the Lord and Savior, Jesus

Christ.

Yeah, God -fearing

parents who raised me in church and in Christ my whole life, pretty much from the

beginning.

As I aged and grew, I started to realize that the

outcome of my faith couldn't be based on my parents and their walk with Christ.

That was a work that God had to do in me separately, and up until I would probably

say my teenage years were the most formative in high school and early college, God finally did that work and

completely broke me through a crumbling relationship in which I was

completely dependent upon another person and just lost in sin and

immorality and things that I wasn't supposed to be finding my value in,

completely apart from Christ.

Professing to believe in Christ and be a Christian, all on the external, but

inwardly I evidenced that I didn't know Him.

It came to a point where He found me in my sin, in the wake of

that devastation, and He saved me.

He found me, He chased down a rebel, and brought me into His kingdom, and

yeah, He just created hunger in me and a fire in me

for serving Him under

His grace and being brought to this now just by

listening to the radio show of Apology of Church.

So that's how I first heard about Jeff, about the gang here, about everything that they were doing

in terms of bringing the gospel into difficult areas.

You know, the church in the minds, when you hear the places that we go

to, the things that we say, the commitment that we have, I think, to scripture, and

to getting outside on their

ground and bringing themselves

out and getting saved and coming to know the Lord in such a

way that He really lured me into this church, this kind of

ministry, wanting

to look sphere, if you will.

Listening to the radio, became really convicted,

and today by His grace, and

that's a little bit about me, hopefully, to get you started.

So other than that, I'm a native from Arizona, born and raised.

I'm married to a wonderful woman.

I have a baby boy who's now eight months.

Yeah,.

That's a little bit about me.

Well, congratulations on your baby boy, and also your wonderful wife.

And in studio with me, who I forgot to mention at the outset of the program, is my co -host, Rev.

Buzz Taylor, and greet our guest, Rev. Buzz.

Well, hello.

It's good to be on with you.

He might have forgotten me, but I didn't go away.

Prayers are not necessarily answered immediately.

Not immediately, because you have to grow through suffering.

But at what age did you come to Christ then?

Pinpoint a time.

I think it would be when I was 19.

Oh, just roughly, yeah.

So what did you say, 19?

Yeah, I was 19.

It was kind of during that formative experience of my college years, and God,

that's when I could pinpoint that God really got a hold of me at that point.

When did you develop this passion for the life of the unborn?

The radio show, I mean, Apology Radio, which is basically the teaching arm of Apology at Church, it's how

we equip the Church all over the globe, the people that listen to do this kind of

ministry, get teaching, the biblical Christianity.

It was when I started listening to that, it was actually just a crazy thing.

I had an accident at that time, and I was bound to the couch for about a week straight.

I couldn't move, I couldn't sit up.

The problem was in my lower back, and I was actually looking up witnessing videos, how to witness the

people who stumbled onto Apologia, and

that's how I first learned about the ministry that they were doing to the unborn, where they would

actually take such a way to abortion clinics, and stand out on the

sidewalk and plead with mothers and fathers for the lives of their children, and bring the Gospel into that in a

way that I really wasn't familiar with.

It seemed confrontational at first, it seemed it was a little too

aggressive, but then the Lord really began to do a work in my heart in the area of

convicting me of my own indifference towards this whole thing.

I was pro -life, you know, just because, you know, under the label of being Christian, I said, well, yeah, of

course, I tend to defend that when someone has it

beyond words, and putting it into something, you know, what does that look like if we dress

up, you know, getting out there and really making a

stand for these, you know, fatherless children, hearing about the children

that had been said, been done, hearing about,

you know, people during conversation

who'd come to faith.

At that point, when I heard that, for me, I just developed

children for these babies that are being...

Now, if my memory serves me right, I believe the last time I spoke to Pastor Jeff

Durbin, Apologia Church has been used of God to rescue at least

70 babies from being murdered in Planned.

Parenthood and other abortion mills.

That's right, and that's what we know of.

So, 70, I mean, that's as far as we know, and we only say that because

sometimes we'll have just crazy situations where, you know, women will walk up to us, or

people will walk up to us on the sidewalk and say, you know, hey, I just wanted to let you know

six months ago I was standing out here, and I was going to go inside, but I left because you were here.

So, sometimes we can't even confirm, you know, that there were saves or turnaways, and

sometimes you have just incredible moments like that where you don't feel like you're making a difference, or you're really, you know, putting a

dent into the kingdom of darkness at all, and then God gives you just enough of a light to keep you in the fight.

So, yes, that's as many children as we know of.

Praise God for that.

We don't take any glory in that whatsoever.

All glory goes to God.

He's just concerned with our faithfulness out there.

So, it's completely up to him whether he wants to save children or not,.

But he's glorified either way.

Well, tell us something about the End Abortion Now

campaign, for which you are Director of Communications.

Yeah, so the End Abortion Now campaign is a nationwide

blanket, if you will, under which we would

like to

unite under

a little bit uncharacteristic for.

We are wanting to, are doing

that through guiding,

and we

are trying, as

the media, when

we're

to ask, you know, okay, well, what

is this thing called?

Violation of an image -bearer of God, issue of abortion as a

national sin, the shedding of innocent blood, by which our nation has

fought.

Have mercy on us

as a nation, and then our message about

bringing that message,

God calls

sin, and then we want to,

for

their child's

pregnancy,

serve with the

law of God.

And let me announce our email address at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson

at gmail .com.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, and by the way, I want to

make sure that you know that the last half hour of the program today, 530 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time, we are going to be interviewing Ann Mikkelhenny.

She is the co -author of the book, Gosnell, the Untold Story

of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer, and I'm sure that many, if not most,

of you know who Kermit Gosnell is, but he is

a former abortion provider who was convicted of murdering three

infants who were born alive during attempted abortion procedures,

and we are going to hear more about this notorious evil man,

who apparently is showing absolutely no remorse at all over this, at the end of

the program, towards the end of the program, I should say, during the last half hour, so make sure that

you stay tuned all the way through Iron Sharpens Iron today to hear Ann Mikkelhenny

discuss her book, Gosnell, the Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer, and our email address again is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if

you live outside of the USA, and if you need to remain anonymous for some reason,

perhaps you yourself are contemplating an abortion, perhaps you've had

an abortion or many abortions, perhaps you just know someone in your family or

someone that you love or care about very dearly who has had an abortion or considering one,

perhaps you were almost aborted, well, perhaps it would be an area that would be so

private and intimate and personal that you would rather remain anonymous, and we understand that, so

feel free to remain anonymous if that is indeed your preference, and our email

address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, and my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has a question for you.

Well yes,.

You said your third prong is to push for legislation, and of course we all heard during the

presidential campaign that one of the things Donald Trump said he was going to do was to put,

he was going to reverse Roe v. Wade and put it back to the states, so could you

touch on that a little bit and let us know what steps you've taken and what victories

you've had or losses concerning trying to change legislation?

Yeah, absolutely, I can.

Try to do my best at this point.

Obviously with the inception of this movement, we're more or less at ground

zero are the foundations of doing this, so we are getting as much counsel as we can in this

area.

My role specifically within the campaign is to network the local church together to provide training

to do this kind of ministry.

Really, our pastoral leadership is heading up the reality of the legislation and meeting

with local representatives in Arizona to do

this and basically recognize the

life of the unborn child and adhere to that, but I think that you described it

very, very well.

Really, the prong is based on the approach that the state can

rise up and end the gap regardless of a

federal opinion, but

the Constitution tells us that courts don't have the ability to make laws, so

really for us, it's about doing this at the state level.

It's about proposing legislation to recognize the unborn

child and just force everyone to be consistent with what is already

in place, really, so it's not a novel thing as much as it is calling and

pleading for consistent children, and you mentioned a minute

ago to the listeners calling in someone who may be even contemplating this,

going through it, struggling with it.

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever, especially after talking with as many women as we do,

and there's even women in our church, for goodness sake, who have dealt with this sin and who've

experienced forgiveness and peace with God, and one thing I would say is there's forgiveness in Christ,

and we would not want to abuse any woman who's contemplating this

decision.

This is the same thing we tell women every time we go to the clinic.

We are here for help.

We're here to give you the gospel, and there's forgiveness in Christ even for the sin of abortion, so it just

so happens that we are

to have, and it has

to be the church of Jesus,

brings in the gospel, peace with

God, all

of that in my

voice that we're not about abusing women.

We believe that women and their children are made in the image of God.

They're up to know Christ,

peace with God, and obviously we want to fight.

Yeah, I hope that helps a little bit.

I'm sure there's a number of our listeners, especially those who are outside of the United States that might not even be aware of

this, if most of the people on the inside of the border are aware of it, or they seem totally unaware of it,

but I remember learning even as a in grade school that we have three branches of government,

the executive, the legislative, and the judicial, and when Donald Trump made

that statement that he was going to put it back to the states where it belongs, he was basically saying it was the executive branch

keeping the judicial branch in check, saying you had no right to pass that as a law.

It needs to go back to the legislature and go through the proper means if it's ever going to become a law

in the land, and of course the media that prides themselves on accuracy immediately

said he's just trying to undo abortion.

Well, maybe he is, and that'd be fine if he is.

I have certainly no trouble with that, but I think people need to understand that he was addressing there the issue that

the Supreme Court never had the to pass Roe v. Wade apart from the legislature.

Yeah, that's right.

Yes, I would completely agree.

With you.

I think that obviously there are a lot of areas in which the country is concerned for

his authority as presidency, but in that particular case, absolutely, and I

think we would have a consistently unified message when we say that we're

grateful to God for any legislation or any

prohibition that's regulated abortion and this horrible crime in every baby

that's been saved as a result of it, but really what the End Abortion Now campaign is about at its

bottom is not the regulation of child murder, but the ending of it once and for all,

and that's really what it's all about.

So yeah, in that particular case, I think, yeah, you're right.

He was just saying, yeah, it has to go back.

Yeah, well, that is an interesting.

Thing that you brought up because that's something that pro -life advocates

disagree over.

I know a number of pro -life advocates who were very upset when they would hear

Ron and Rand Paul address abortion as a state's issue,

and I know that Pastor Jeff is a great admirer of Ron Paul,

and I have much high regard for him as well.

I also share some of Pastor Jeff's libertarian leanings,

but that is an issue that many pro -life activists

believe that this should be elevated to a federal law crime, you know, a federal crime,

and so what is your opinion on that?

I mean, it almost, I mean, I'm not saying it is in reality doing this, but

it on the surface seems like it is diminishing the level of severity of what the.

Crime actually is.

We want, if we're consistent with the standard that God has revealed in scripture, I mean, he

recognizes, I mean, for example, you go to the book of Exodus and he recognizes the child within

the mother as human, as, you know, his image bearer,

which is why he demands, and the standard is so severe.

The scripture tells us, you know, when you take life unjustly, you forfeit your right

to live.

So then the book of Genesis and the establishment of government was instituted by

God to restrain sin and to protect, you know, his creatures,

those made in his image.

So what we're saying is that, you know, we want to be consistent.

A woman that, you know, God forbid, but we hear stories on the news all the time about,

you know, parents who have destroyed the lives of their child in whatever way, you know, their,

you know, 10 -month old baby girl.

And we have to be consistent that says

that the same, you know, penalty, the same sanction that God calls for

in his word and standard that

he demands for all of his image bearers, it's just because

different in

their mother,

biologically is

different.

DNA, fingerprint, all those things

develop the same standard

that we would have.

I mean, again, it goes back to the same

standard that we would have

for someone that

commits murder.

Well, trying to steer that.

So I'm assuming then what you're saying is because, and this may surprise people, but murder is actually

a state crime.

It's not a federal crime.

There are certain circumstances that involve a murder that makes

it a federal crime, but there are unique circumstances.

In fact, I believe there are, let's see, I think there are 10

reasons that a murder becomes a federal crime.

But because of the fact

that we are living in a day and age where it would seem bordering on the

miraculous to make it a federal crime across the board universally in our country, is this a

matter of strategy that it would be pushed for this to be a state

crime or an option of the states to vote upon?

Yeah, that's the direction that we would be headed in.

I think, I mean, obviously someone like me who stands out

on, you know, the front lines and does this kind of ministry, um, someone with a

disease for that long, but

become more educated about, you know, these types of things, specifically in our government, you know, to be a good citizen.

And to, it's very important, I think, to, we have to

exercise our freedom lawfully.

And that

doesn't mean decree.

I

mean, we have

to obey, praise God.

We're going to a break right now.

So Buzz, you could ask your question when we return.

Uh, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We already have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered by Zachary

Conover.

He is the director of communications for the End Abortion Now campaign, a member of Apologia

Church in Tempe, Arizona.

And, uh, we'll be back after this break with more on this

very horrific issue.

This, uh, this blight on America, if not globally, uh,

one of the most diabolical and wicked and evil and disgusting things that human beings can

do is be involved in infanticide and not only do

it, uh, physically with your own hands, like an abortionist, but even those that gleefully

and enthusiastically and excitedly support this, uh, wicked

satanic, uh, blight on our, on our globe.

But anyway, we'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen,.

Your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

In studio with me is the Rev. Buzz Taylor, my co -host, and we are interviewing Zachary Conover,

and he is director of communications for the End Abortion Now campaign.

He's a member of Apology Church in Tempe, Arizona, a husband, a father, writer, and performer of the spoken

word.

Now, what exactly do you mean by a performer of the spoken word?

Is that the opposite of a mime?

I guess you could say that, yeah.

It actually uses words to.

Communicate.

So yeah, if anyone has ever heard of that kind of art form before, it's really

poetry, just being spoken to an audience.

So it can be done, you know, there's spoken word artists who aren't believers,

but, you know, the particular pieces that I've done before have been gospel

-centered, you know, saturated with biblical language.

So you're talking about the kind of thing that, even though it exists today, it was very popular in the 50s and 60s.

The beatniks were very well known to sit in cafes and

listen to this kind of thing.

Is this basically what you're talking about, a contemporary version of that?

Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

So, I mean, spoken poetry, you know, not quite what my generation

would term as freestyling or rapping.

It's more premeditated.

You know, it's written down ahead of time, a lot of times it's memorized, and then it's spoken either before a church

audience or.

Really whoever will listen.

Do you ever do this in secular settings where there are people, you know, who have a captive

audience of people who may hear the gospel?

I haven't personally performed it in a place that wasn't a church setting, but some of the pieces that I've

done, I actually did a particular one on this very issue that we're talking about today.

It's up online, and it has to do with the issue of abortion.

So that's reached quite a few people, I'm sure, that haven't been unbelievers.

But as far as taking it to,.

You know, audiences, I've yet to do that.

And Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question for you.

Before the break, we had mentioned, of course, we all are on the same page when we say that abortion

is murder, and that you are seeking legal means to end

abortion.

And I think just before we get too far away from that thought, it should be also added to the discussion that

vigilantism is just as much murder as abortion, because I know there are, every once in a while, we

hear of individuals who like to take things into their own hands and believe that they are doing God a

big favor by going and bombing an abortion clinic or killing an abortionist.

And we need to understand that, you know, God has a law that we cannot commit murder.

We are not the legal means, we're not the judge and the jury.

So we do not have the right to take the life of the abortionist.

We do have the right, though, to vote and to use all legal means of eliminating it.

Yeah, that's absolutely right.

I think that's a really, really great point.

I think even, sometimes Christians can forget about that.

We can become so up in arms about this whole subject, because it touches at the very fabric

of what we stand for, life, that we can sometimes become blinded or

even try and exercise this kind of ministry outside of the covering of our local churches.

We can, like you said, take matters into our own hands and become Lone Rangers, in the sense

that we try to use unlawful means.

I think if we're consistent, then we have to realize the God that we serve not

only cares about the results and the end, but also the means, how we get and how we

get there.

And that goes for anything.

I mean, that goes for how we preach, you know,

evangelism to unbelievers.

God not only cares about the end result, but He's sovereign over the means and how we get there too.

So He's given us the blueprint.

It's to that standard, put our feet on and always try and remain

securely fastened to the rock of our salvation that teaches us how

to do that.

So you mentioned, you know, lawful means.

There were even in this movement, as far as I'm aware, those who were in the site much, much longer than I have

been years and years ago, who would, you know, employ different tacks,

lay down in front of the door and try and try and block people.

I think we

had a

different idea about what would be successful.

So, you know,

doing this the way that's been strategic in

a sense to everything

that you need.

For example,

we can't be less than 191 feet away

lawfully

and remain on the sidewalk.

Now, what do you have, say you have somebody that is going into the abortion clinic and you divert

her and she says, okay, well, what do I do?

And do you have, what do you then, I mean, do you have like, do you show

sonograms and things like that?

Do you have a place where you can take her to, you know, she can actually see her baby and, you know, you know what I'm talking about.

How do you follow up once somebody has decided against an abortion?

Sure.

Yeah.

Really good question.

Oftentimes you stand out there, you know, you bring the word of God, you, you air the gospel out.

You do have to be prepared with resources

that they can be helped.

So we have a list of information that we do

give them.

I mean, we try and give it to everyone going in and out and warn them about a way.

But in terms of them, we do have a list of local pregnancy centers that will help them that don't perform

abortions.

Many of them are based

and get

help

too.

We do have those kinds of resources that you're outlining where it talks about stages of development in the womb.

So the woman can actually see, you know, at what stage, you know, she is

pregnant right now, she can see, you know, the development of her child and just have a visual illustration of that.

And then of course we have, you know, standard gospel tracks and those kinds of things.

But really, I mean, anything that they need, if they need someone to drive them to the

clinic, we're literally standing out

there saying, we will

give you information as you will give them

about the life of the child, about, you know,

that's why the gospel.

So oftentimes,.

You know, I

can

remember years ago back in the 1980s, before she was herself a Christian,

my friend Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, who led me to the Lord

in the 1980s later on.

But when even when she was an unbeliever, she was very pro

-life.

And she knew that her baby, I believe at this time she only had one child, but she

knew that that baby was a baby, a human being, ever since it began to form

within her womb.

And she had a friend who was a crack addict.

And this woman, I don't know if she was actually at that time a

crack addict, but she had a past as a crack addict, and apparently was a crack addict when she got

pregnant.

This friend that my friend Susan was speaking with on

her pregnancy, this woman was determined to get an abortion because she

believed that that baby was going to be deformed.

And she didn't really think of it as a baby.

She just thought of it as a blob of tissue inside of her, that if it developed and became a

baby later on, it would be deformed or something would be radically wrong with it, brain damage.

And my friend Susan had this book, I'm not sure what book it was, but it was a book that contained

the photographic evidence of the development of life in the womb, like really

vivid photography.

And this was back in the 80s, so I'm sure that it's even much, with technology, it's probably even much more vivid, the

kinds of things that you can have today.

But after this, after my friend sat down with this woman and went through this book with her,

she said, that's it, I'm having this baby, nothing's going to stop me, I'm having this baby.

She was convinced that it was an actual child in her, and she gave birth to the

baby, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

It was completely healthy and nothing was wrong at all.

Let me go to a few of our listeners who have questions.

We have Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker of Shepard's Fellowship in

Greensboro, North Carolina, and I have to enlarge his question

because I'm going blind, and the font that he used is very tiny, so if you'd just

be patient with me, I should have done this already.

I've spent nearly 15 years outside a local abortion clinic preaching

the gospel, and have had similar encounters and successes as Jesus Christ saves

lives.

My question is, how would one deal with the super -hardened abortion providers and employees?

Never in those years did we succeed with any measurable results from preaching the gospel and

calling those who commit murder or accomplices to the act of abortion to repent and

turn from their sin to Christ.

Thank the Lord that the clinic is now closed as the abortionist Dr. Hoffman died

sadly and repentant, and now likely in eternity in judgment.

So, do you have any comments on that?

Obviously, when he says, never in those years did we succeed

with any measurable results from preaching the gospel, well, he really can't know that 100 for sure because there

might have been things, just as you were saying, you only know of 70 babies that were rescued from abortion clinics

through the pro -life ministry of Apologia Church, but having said that,.

Could

you respond

to this

pastor's

comments?

Not just the

workers

walk right through the door

without even acknowledging you

exist, it's the quiet

ones.

I would say

all that, even if

however

many, whether or

not, Steve Murphy, who

came down and visited here,

he goes

to the Orlando Women's

Center

ministry

there as

unfruitful or unsuccessful.

What you did there in bringing the gospel to the clinic workers, to the women that marched right in without even

giving any indication to you that they were hearing what you were saying, because the

reason that you know

that he was is because

you don't have a voice, Proverbs.

You were there, I'm

sure thousands of people heard the gospel.

Well, thank you very much, Zach, and thank you very much, Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker, for contributing to our program

with that question.

We're going to get a little break right now.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at

gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and obviously, as I said

earlier, you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, especially if it's regarding a personal and

private issue involving abortion, not only involving yourself,

but involving those close to you, those that you love or know or care about.

We're going to be right back after these messages, and don't forget, also, the last half hour of this broadcast we have on the

program, God willing, Anne Michelhenny, co -author of Gosnell, The Untold

Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer.

So don't go away and make sure you stay tuned until the end of the program.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com is our email address, and I ask

those that are waiting to have their questions asked and answered to be as patient as possible, we will get to you

as soon as we can.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is not a jazz program, and I'm not DJ, but I did enjoy listening to

that.

And thank you, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for finding that excellent music for the background of that ad.

We are discussing a very important issue today that is a

plague, a blight on this globe.

It is the wickedness, the vile, satanic evil of infanticide

being conducted by those running abortion mills all over

the United States and all over the world.

And we are discussing this today with our

first -time guest, Zachary.

Zachary, who is the Director of Communications for

EndAbortionNow .com.

EndAbortionNow .com is the website for the End Abortion Now campaign.

And he is a member of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, where

the ministry that Zachary Conover is

involved in is taking place.

And the Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, has been used of God to rescue at least

70 unborn babies from being murdered in Planned Parenthood and other abortion mills.

So we thank God for the work that they are doing.

And if you have any questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson

at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

But obviously, a subject like this lends itself to people desiring to remain

anonymous if you are speaking about abortions that you have had yourself or perhaps are

contemplating or someone that you know and love is either had or contemplating abortion.

So we will respect your preference to remain anonymous.

Well, we are back with our discussion.

And we do have some questions that I'd like to get to now.

We have Joe in Slovenia who says, Please ask Brother Zachary about

the feasibility using electronic billboards to display video of

abortions publicly.

This could be played on a continuous loop in thousands of locations around the country to

confront the public with the reality of the murder that is abortion.

That is an interesting question, because I have been saying on this program for quite a long time

that I am just absolutely frustrated that Fox News

and all of these conservative or allegedly conservative

television programs and networks are not televising abortions.

If they claim to be so committed to the pro -life cause,

especially near elections, during election season, why are they not

televising an actual abortion that has taken place?

It boggles my mind because if we are supposed to be voting

intelligently as a public, any liberal or pro -abortionist

that would try to stop such a thing would be revealing that they

are hiding a secret.

But I think our friend in Slovenia has an excellent idea with the electronic billboards, but

obviously a lot of it would be dependent upon the local government

where this was trying to be accomplished.

But if you want to comment on that, Zachary?

Sure.

You can get this out of the public eye.

The media is obviously the biggest.

That's the way that our culture communicates.

That's the way that ideas are shared.

My generation especially goes to Twitter for their news source, not to

the local news networks.

But I would say absolutely we're not opposed to something like that

often during the

many other means by which this is happening in our nation.

So a lot of those are doing that right now.

They're putting those kinds of visual demonstrations together of what actually takes place in there.

That was one of the things

that really drew me

into it.

I mean, those of us in this fight are trying to be, again, consistent.

You know, the

answer is yes.

As painful and as much as you want to look away,

that you see drawing people

into this ministry.

We have to contain this evil in front of the public.

We have to demonstrate what this is as uncomfortable as it might be.

We have to agree to do that.

Oftentimes we go out to the clinics with signs that depict that

reality.

And those who identify as pro -choice, the Planned Parenthood supporters, often can't even

look at the signs.

They won't look at loud music.

They'll yell and scream and sing and dance.

But they really have to remember that

this is an issue of

us being rebels before God.

There has never been more of an abundance of information inside

the womb than what we have right now.

And yet people still, by the droves, march into a clinic and

destroy their child.

So we have to remember that it's not an issue of knowledge.

And we have to call people to that.

And again, it goes back to that being a spiritual fight.

Information does not change.

Only Jesus can do that.

And he has prescribed the way in which that is to take place.

And that's by the preaching of his gospel.

Amen.

Yes, because you can have a pro -life individual who is marching on

pro -life lines and marches and boycotting abortion clinics who will

still be in hell if he does not receive the gospel.

The being in defense of the life of the unborn is not a ticket to heaven.

That's just something that is a normal and logical response to someone

who has eyes and ears and any moral compass at all

to oppose these things.

But just as there are lost people who profess to be Christian and lost

people in many prevalent Christian denominations because they

themselves have never truly been given a new heart by Christ,

the gospel is the most important thing, even above and beyond trying to bring an end to abortion.

And that is actually an area I want to touch on in a minute because it's unfortunate that

there are many pro -life and conservative individuals who are professing to be Christian who have

become modern -day ecumenists and who have put the gospel and important doctrine

in the scriptures on a lower level of importance than the pro -life movement.

But the only thing that I can think of that might be a problem with

Joe and Slovenia's idea about a billboard is that it could actually, I'm assuming, cause traffic

accidents because people would be perhaps so shocked or whatever by seeing these things that

they may wind up injuring themselves or others.

But I am completely in favor of televising these things regularly

and I think that we should just have an outpouring of mail to

Fox News insisting that they do that because

it's interesting how Sean Hannity, whenever he brings up Hillary Clinton,

he'll bring up her allegiance to the late Senator Robert

Byrd who was in the Ku Klux Klan.

But Robert Byrd renounced his membership in the Klan.

I don't know why he doesn't bring up the founder of Planned Parenthood consistently, Margaret

Sanger, who was a racist and who wanted to eliminate the black race from the face of the earth

through sterilization and later abortion because that wasn't legal at the time she started

Planned Parenthood.

But she was an evil woman and a racist so she's the one that should

be brought to the attention of the public because Hillary Clinton proudly received the

Margaret Sanger award and all these pro -choice or pro -abortion liberals

view her as a hero of feminism, Margaret Sanger.

And she actually had, this is not an exaggeration or something that I've made up, she literally had Nazis

before we as a country were involved in World War II.

She had scientists in the Nazi party in Germany writing for her magazine.

But we do have Tyler who actually brings up

exactly what I was just talking about.

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island says, is it true that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a racist

who believed in eugenics?

And that's absolutely true.

And do you have anything further to add to that, Zachary?

I would 100 % affirm everything you just said,.

Chris.

I mean, it's well known these things that she

said, the things that she

advocated for.

But if you

notice

something that

they argue for a

baby boys

and baby girls

value or

disabilities,

it

doesn't

matter.

So in poverty,

then you

formation,

one

who knows the origins of Planned.

Parenthood.

And we were saying before, I was saying before that the

gospel is the primary thing.

Do you not agree that it is a danger when people, because of the fact that there is something

that really attacks the heart of

a person, especially perhaps even the one who has been enlightened after they are born again.

But it attacks the heart to know that these innocent, helpless, the most

fragile and helpless among us by the millions are being ripped apart, literally torn to

pieces in their mother's womb, which is supposed to be a sanctuary for these, these little

humans while they're developing.

That sometimes because of the emotion involved in this, and the the blatant,

palpable evil that is so tangibly realized,

that we can have a tendency and many do step over the

boundaries of, of denominational or religious barriers,

and rally with people to end abortion in

such a manner where the gospel and the importance of the gospel is diminished.

Obviously, I'm not, I am not advocating that, that Christians

not be involved in any way with non -Christians who are pro -life.

But as our mutual friend Dr. James R. White has

said, he used to be many years ago involved in a major pro -life

activist organization, and he stepped down from involvement because he was not permitted to

spread the gospel to people of different religions there.

Now that is something that's of primary importance, isn't it?

Absolutely, this is the dividing line.

Well, let me, before we go, because we're running out of time, I want to make sure that you give some practical advice

to people, since you and Pastor Jeff Durbin and other folks at Apologia Church, who

have a pro -life ministry, are speaking to women about to have their babies murdered

on a weekly basis, and you have experienced the face -to -face

confrontations with these women.

Can you tell us some advice, some practical advice, on how to approach these women?

Because obviously there are people out there who have zeal but no wisdom, and there are

people out there that have actually, speaking of Dr. White, have put a

real, they have really damaged the evangelistic efforts to Mormons that Alpha Omega

Ministries, James White's ministry, used to have on a regular basis

at the Mormon temple and other places where Mormons have gathered for major events when they were

there evangelizing and passing out tracts.

There have been fundamentalist groups and independent groups claiming to be Christian who just do nothing

but scream hate and nastiness and mockery and, you know, acting in

a way that you never see Christ and his disciples behaving.

But do you have any practical implications on how to approach these.

Women?

Well, just very quickly, that's often the concept hearing

about equitational and then

identifying

us with

a practical

advice for anyone that can

start doing this.

Something like this,

love of God, keeps

you going and

why we go,

which

your life

is able

to be looked

at.

What the

laws are, it's

not about

you at

all.

It's not about...

And

before you go, any memorable moments that you.

Can recall specifically regarding women who have changed their minds at the abortion clinics?

I said earlier on the show that we'll just

come back, we'll have a child with them, and at the time

that we spoke with them, you know, the child was inside of them.

One thing we always try

that

day and

because of the, you know,

we're all

their way, these children would be dead today, but they weren't.

There's a lot of

moments out there.

Yes, and we have to go now,.

And I know that your organization has a website

and that is endabortionnow .com, correct?

That's correct, and it's currently undergoing a lot of work.

We're getting everything away into abortion

clinics, so if you'd

love to know more.

And you could also

go to apologiachurch .com,.

That's apologia, a -p -o -l -o -g -i -a -church .com, and

apologiaradio .com, a -p -o -l -o -g -i -a

-radio .com.

Thank you so much, Zach, and we look forward to your return to Iron Sheriff Desirant.

Oh, guys, I had such a good time talking with you today, thanks so much for having me.

All right, God bless, and coming up any moment now, we're going to have Ann Mikulhiny, God willing,

on the program.

She's going to be discussing her book, Gosnell, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer, so if

you have any questions for her, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

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a pastor.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arns,.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest for the last half hour of today's program is Anne McElhinney.

She is co -author of the book, Gosnell, The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer,

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Anne McElhinney.

It's good to be here, thank you.

Well, tell us something about your own background, Anne, and how you became involved with not only the writing of this book, but

also how you became involved in a major motion picture starring Dean Cain.

That is going to be on this very issue.

We came across this, we're both, we

came across the story very much by accident, apparently in

Pennsylvania with our last frac

nation, and, you know, heard that there was a local crime story, there was some crime, you know, that people

were talking about in Philadelphia, went to the courtroom, saw the most horrific evidence being presented to

the jury, saw, heard incredible evidence and testimony being given from the

stand, and then shockingly turned around to realize that basically this

is what, this is what first interested us, and we initially decided to make a movie.

We crowdfunded that movie and got to, so far we're still crowdfunding, 2 .3 million dollars

from 20, go to gosnellmovie .com and give a dollar and join that group,

and then during the research for the screenplay, we heard so many stories about the details

of this case that we realized none of them, you know, not all of them could, but

people should know them, and that's what inspired us to write the book, and this is a shocking story of

murder in plain sight that really ought to be read by everyone in America.

In fact, I want to read a commendation by Michelle Malkin.

Many of our listeners who watch Fox News may be familiar with Michelle Malkin, who's a frequent guest.

She is founder of Twitchy and author of Invasion and Culture of Corruption.

She said, Hollywood could not conjure up a villain more barbaric and cold -blooded than true

-life serial killer Kermit Gosnell.

Investigative journalists Ann McElhenney and Philem McAleer take you

face -to -face with Philadelphia's baby butcher in this gripping expose, but the story is especially chilling

because he did not act alone.

The true horror lies in Gosnell's ghoulish gallery of enablers, feckless government

bureaucrats, abortion radicals, and an AWOL media.

McElhenney and McAleer are unflinching torchbearers of truth.

This book is a public service.

That's a pretty powerful description.

Now, this was all exposed from a drug bust,.

Am I right?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it was extraordinary that, I mean, you know, this guy might have continued to kill up to this very day if it

weren't for one extraordinary who,

you know, accidentally came up

with this Dr. Kermit Gosnell in a routine drug bust.

I mean, he would pursue right up these...

And through

that investigation, discovered that Kermit Gosnell, you know,

he started to, you know, do some undercover work, started

talking to some of the people who worked there, and discovered that a woman had died, Karnamaya Mongar,

20 years in Nepal in a refugee camp, only to come to America and be dead four months later.

So he, you know, he started to become really, you know, exercised about her death,

because she was dead and buried, and no one seemed to care.

It worked out.

Well, through his investigation of the death of Karnamaya

Mongar, he

discovered in

jars that there were

cats walking

around the

narcotics officer, only for him revealed,

and Gosnell will be killing today.

Instead of that, he is sitting in prison in Pennsylvania.

Now, why was he only convicted of the murders of three infants?

As you were saying, there were rows and rows of body parts.

Yeah, well, in the end, I think there's a couple of.

Reasons.

But you know, in the end, it was easier for them to get him on the three counts that had the most evidence.

And I think there was also

in Philadelphia didn't be tried for a larger

number, which might affect three, and that would look very bad on paper.

So in the end, he was only done for three.

But it's put him away for three life sentences.

So we won't be you know, he won't be seeing the light of day again.

But we certainly know from the grand jury report

that

murders.

Wow.

Now, did the women who gave birth to these murdered babies, these these,.

At least these three women, did they come forward and testify?

Yes.

And a couple of.

Them were able to describe the

jury were told the

case was not and

wanted there

were murdered.

And of course, abortion and

illegal murder.

When the jury

got to

hear of

what he

did illegally in

murdering those children outside the womb, if I think

the jury were really taken aback by that.

Wow.

Now, were these babies intentionally

delivered prematurely and then murdered?

Or were these just quote, quote, accidental births that he just later

murdered them?

With intentionally, he filled the women up with

this thing called

cytotech, which, you know, it

was easier, I think there was a kind of an expediency to this.

And he's very, you know, after him, he has these bourbon

teen houses, they found a quarter of a million dollars in cash boxes,

he's big

into shopping, and he didn't even turn up to the clinic until nighttime.

So during the day, he was at another abortion clinic in Delaware.

And so during during the day, his unqualified staff, when I say unqualified, I really mean unqualified.

And hepatitis C, what a woman with HIV

had working for them, would drug up the women would come

on completely unqualified people that worked for him.

And then he would come in the evening.

But during the day, they fill them up so much particularly fall out

of that kind of lies.

And then God will come in.

But what he did also was he trade when he wasn't

there, stabbing them in the back of them did that.

And many of them went to prison for the for that exact.

Wow, many of them.

How many approximately?

About six of them went.

Now they did mostly short sentences.

However, Steve math off, who was a kind of, you know, he had a medical degree, but hadn't had read it, hadn't gotten his

residency.

And who worked for God knows he's facing here, he's in famine, he was sort of treated

slightly differently to the other people, because he was not on highly educated,

they who should have known better.

And he continued to work there.

He continued to help with these murders.

And he.

Now your subtitle, the untold story of America's most prolific serial killer,

the term serial killer, probably most often, in the minds of our

listeners in the minds of the public in general, it conjures up ideas of someone who is getting a

sexual thrill out of murder or some kind of evil pleasure that they are deriving from this.

Do you know if or can you surmise that there was something beyond

a man in a very warped and twisted way thinking that he was benefiting women and helping them

perhaps preventing them from entering to further poverty or whatever the nonsensical

reasons the feminists and the pro abortionists give for murdering babies?

Is there anything beyond what a typical abortionist might experience that

you know of, or at least that you can surmise from, from doing the investigation that you did?

Yeah, I mean, we have a whole chapter in the book.

And by the way, people can get the book by going to Gosnell movie, Gosnell book .com directly

to the landing page.

And we've sold out on all platforms.

I mean, we have a chapter devoted to the

whole, and most of what people know about serial killers, the

truth is, they have to be very social and very plausible to

do it for so long.

This man was doing it for 30 years.

So he needed to be, you know, not to be detected, and to be able to do it, murder, as we say, murder in plain sight.

So no, he's, I mean, he certainly in meeting him, and I've been in the prison with him for many

hours.

I mean, he is very, he's extremely narcissistic, has an incredibly

important in the world of his intelligence of his talent

doesn't have very,

very, very peculiar.

I mean, I think there's

definitely a sense in which he was very greedy.

And I think there's a sense in which a lot of a lot of you that

very, very odd,

and he

has an

obsession with

it very, I mean, I

can also see

very easily how he can

invite him.

Yeah, well, do you have any knowledge of as

to why he kept all those baby parts?

Well, you know, they do talk about, you know, serial killers are are very are notorious for keeping

that that was that that was what was going on here that he somehow kept

trophies and he

named on the on the

journal, a lot

of medical experts be

contacted.

Well, it's interesting that you said that he had a fascination with his own feet.

And here he has.

Jars of babies feet.

I mean, yeah, yeah.

And we have that in the chapter on meeting the monster where I described exactly what it's like to meet him.

He talked about being in Auschwitz, and he found

it really

impressive.

And I thought of all the words you could possibly find describe

murdered children.

Yeah.

Well, did he even tell you

why he went to visit the Holocaust sites?

He said, well, he had a whole explanation of the fact that he, you know, has a huge interest in Jewish history.

And a lot of forget it said a lot of friends of his were Jewish.

And he was to give a lecture.

Obviously,

a lot

of your

listeners will know that

and that experience.

Now, do you know anything from your interviews with him?

Was he ever at any point in his life, opposed to abortion

before he started to get involved in it?

Was it was he at all in any way, squeamish about the idea?

Was there anything that he viewed it that he viewed negatively.

About this practice before he?

Absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

And in fact, if people buy the book, and as I

said, they can go and get that gospel

to the back of the book tree

about abortion

thing.

I don't know what

scripture verse he could have possibly found to come up with that idea.

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, he has a whole list at the very back of the book.

I mean, I mean, he's an extraordinary guy.

And he's, you know, he lives in this world where he has.

A justification for everything.

Now he's in prison serving three life sentences.

I don't know if fellow inmates view him the same way that they typically will view a pedophile.

You typically a pedophile goes into prison with a death sentence hanging over him because the

other prisoners are looking for the opportunity to brutalize or murder the pedophile.

How do they view this man being a murderer, a serial murderer of little babies?

Well, well, according to him,.

Every he's getting on fabulously.

And he has great friends there in the prison, that's what he said.

And when I visited him, I you know, I had expected that it would be behind plexiglass.

And everyone was there, there

were all the

other prisoners were there,

ma 'am, and were able to move

very, very odd, extremely odd and very difficult.

Now, how has his family Gosnell permit.

Gosnell's family reacted to this?

And, well, you know, it's interesting, he talks about them, like, so they're all very much in touch, and that he knows a lot about what's

going on.

However, when we visited him in the prison, no one from his family had visited

of any kind of visitors.

And that was like more than a year into his sentence.

Well, now, is he married?

Does he have children?

Yes, he has seven children.

Wow.

He's presently married, and his wife is Pearl.

In fact, she went to prison for a short period, as well as part of as part

of this.

But he has.

Yeah, no, he's, in fact, his dog, we

have, you know, we describe all of that.

And we described the different children he has one of his children, he didn't

want he was saying was hard for him to come, but another one of his sons,

but he you know, but yeah, he has a he has a family, and they're not being in touch

with him from from everything that I know.

And his his, the amount of, you know, energy he spends getting in touch with me, and getting in touch by

letter.

And by now, the thing that's

fascinating.

About this is that most people, perhaps even many, if not most,

pro abortionists, will look upon what he did as evil just because the

babies were born.

But it is it is really inconsistent, and illogical, because our

former president was even against the Infant Born Alive Act, where

infants born alive, quote, quote, accidentally in an abortion attempt.

The the idea of the Infant Born Alive Act is that they were to be their life was to be preserved in any

way possible through medical means.

Whereas President Barack Obama apparently was very aware

that there were hospitals in Chicago when he was senator that were babies being

born alive during an abortion attempt were being just stored in in linen closets and

boiler rooms or wherever just left in boxes to just starve to death and die.

Do you see the the irony to this that you have people, even a president

who was not in favor of the Infant Born Alive Act, and yet we have this man being publicly

portrayed for what he is a serial killer?

Yeah, Barack

Obama, his record on this.

I mean, I for

me, it's kind of I

think I think in a lot of cases, I just wonder if

he was on

to the woman's right.

It does all sound very reasonable.

It's when you get into the nitty gritty of things and work out exactly even

partially outside the womb in the case of partial birth abortion.

But it becomes a little bit more I

would like and I don't like the idea that's happening in my country.

I think people do change their mind if they get an education.

I'd like to think that Barack Obama would have gotten you know, could have changed his mind if he got an education.

And that I think that if

he did get an education, and because of the education he got, he's become very pro life.

Yes, he was pro choice at one time.

Yeah, I think I read I read a very good thing about about President Trump today that I really liked.

They said that his inside voice is the same as the outside voice, if everyone gets what I mean by that,

that he

says, you

know, that when I hear, he

sounds to me and that

maybe buying

multiple copies.

And one thing that people are doing is they're buying copies, and then they're reading it in public and sending us photographs, and they can send

photographs of themselves reading it.

I could see that the cover

is very dramatic with a with God knows over and they're

like, what, what are you reading?

What's that about?

And I think one of our biggest ambitions is that people would just

know who Michael Brown is.

I mean, Michael Brown was a thug, you know, who assaulted an immigrant in a corner shop

and then tried to beat a police officer to death and died during that melee.

So, you know, but he's apparently looked upon by a lot of people in some kind of a martyr, which is

very, very Samika Shaw, who died at this like,

no one's ever heard of her.

Karnamaya Monger, the Bhutanese refugee, no one's ever heard of her who died at that clinic.

And the name Kermit Gosnell is not a household name in America.

Well, we're certainly doing everything we can to make sure it is.

And the people know what went on in plain sight in the United States of America, in Philadelphia, which is not a

backwater, which is a progressive, very, very progressive city.

And that they'll know that a lot of the reason why Gosnell got to do this

for a Catholic, Governor Tom Ridge, you know, who became the governor

of Pennsylvania in 1995, running on a call for

the health of Pennsylvania, hands off the abortion

clinics.

Wow.

They didn't go.

They never went.

They never inspected in 17 years, even though the bodies were.

Piling up downstairs.

Wow.

Well, I thought it'd be appropriate to bring up Norma Lee McCorvey, who just

passed away over the weekend, who is the Roe in the famous or infamous Roe

versus Wade decision, who later became pro -life.

Did she become aware of your book before she passed away?

I don't actually know the answer to that, and I've never met her myself.

But it's a fascinating story.

Her story is really fascinating.

I mean, she had a dramatic...

It is interesting that the whole reason that why the Roe versus Wade issue came up

was based on a lie.

The whole story was made up, but she obviously repented of her involvement in that and became pro

-life.

Well, tell our listeners about the movie that's coming up.

Yeah, so we've got a movie as well.

We've made a movie called Gosnell.

We're looking for distribution.

Shocking to tell your listeners, you

know, getting in.

We're working on that right now, but anyone who wants to give us a couple of dollars, they can go to gosnellmovie

.com, 29 ,000 people at any amount.

Just turn up and be part of this community.

It should be bigger than 29 ,000 people.

I think this issue matters more.

So people can go to gosnellmovie .com and give a dollar and go to Gosnell Book Book and buy a

copy for, you know...

And have you received any opposition to the book?

I would think that even pro -abortionists would be too embarrassed to publicly oppose what you've written, but is there any backlash?

No.

Now, the closest thing to backlash was that the New York Times...

We sold out on all platforms about two days after the book came out.

We were the number three most...

The New York Times did not put us on their hardback bestseller list.

They put us on another New York Times listing as

a bestseller, but they didn't put us on the list they should have because apparently the New York Times bestseller list is not

comprised of bestsellers.

So that's a shocker.

They do it based on the numbers.

They do it based on a thing they call context, and then they helpfully don't explain what context

means, which allows them to celebrate and to be high

on their list or by people that they kind of like.

But they certainly didn't like this book and they left it off,

which is wrong.

But, you know, people don't want this story out.

Media covered it, but national media were very, very reluctant.

Go to Gosnell...

Isn't it amazing that the liberal media doesn't even want to talk about something

that even they must recognize is clearly murder, in fact, infanticide?

Absolutely.

Well, it's gosnellbook .com and gosnellmovie .com.

That's G -O -S as in Sam, N as in Nancy, E -L -L, gosnellbook .com and

gosnellmovie .com.

If you wouldn't mind, Anne, staying on after the program ends, just so I could speak with you

a movie, another interview with you when the movie comes out, if you could hold on just for a couple of minutes.

Absolutely, thank you.

Well, I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to thank my first guest today, who thankfully came to the rescue when

Pastor Jeff Durbin was unable to be on the program.

So, Zachary, we thank you for filling in for Pastor Jeff Durbin, and I

want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on Iron Trap and Zion Radio.