A One Hour Forty Minute Start to My Response to Wael Ibrahim on the Trinity

And greetings, welcome to the dividing line. Oh, we're all pixelated over there. I was gonna say wow This thing's gonna completely drive the thing nuts, but it's all it's all pixelated.

That's why it looks so so strange Welcome to the program on I know it's December 17th

At least I know that much. I think it is a Thursday. Yes, it is and We have a special program lined up for you today.

I have mentioned on Social media etc, etc what we're going to be doing today

I was directed to a debate which I believe took place in Hong Kong on October 25th

Between a Christian gentleman by the name of Lincoln Liu Who I have not met but a very good friend of mine has met

Lincoln Michael O 'Fallon who Is you know,

I think of all the commercials we've ever had still looks horrible of all commercials we've ever had

The one that that sticks with people the most was Michael's commercial about Alaska, yes,

Alaska that looks better. Thank you, Alaska and so Michael has a lot of Connections in in well in China, but in Hong Kong, especially and hence has has met

Lincoln Liu and I was unaware of him and he was debating as the

Christian against a Muslim speaker and scholar by the name of Wael Ibrahim Wael Ibrahim and As soon as I started to listen to this debate,

I've listened to it twice I've only watched portions of it, but You just can't help

You know some some speakers on both sides You just sort of put up with them, you know,

I mean, I mean, that's how people have to deal with me Just have to put up with me Put up with my my sweaters or whatever else it might be

Unpleasant looks whatever whatever but Well, it just strikes me as salt of the earth

Just a really really nice guy the type of guy you want to talk to as A Christian, he's a type of guy.

I want him to really understand what I believe I want to I want to embrace him as as more than just my brother in humanity so I want

I want to communicate with him because he's obviously wants to talk about these things and So After listening to the well as I listened to the debate,

I sort of felt like I was a part of the debate But not really I couldn't be there Because I I lost track of how many times

I was referred to in this debate. The Forgotten Trinity was just both sides recording from the

Forgotten Trinity, so I I Sort of you know felt like I was in the debate, but just not quite and that made it all the more interesting for me obviously and Somewhat frustrating too because you can't you know, really get into it and and so on so forth.

So I Sent off an email I Did a little digging around and I wanted to get hold.

I wanted to be able to communicate with while Abraham and Thank You Kofi a great great shot you you save there for Twitter Anyway, um and We got in in touch and we have exchanged a few emails and I let him know that I'm going to review his comments in the debate and Then we're gonna arrange and this is where I throw all the technical stuff at rich We're gonna arrange

Some way of having way on he's 15 hours ahead of us So, I think it's like 5 o 'clock in the morning in Hong Kong tomorrow something like that It's not even my birthday anymore there.

It's a shame but We will work out our schedules in such a way as to have him on, you know, he'd like to talk about the

Trinity I would like to talk about the Trinity as well But I'd also like to have him on just talk about some of the other things going on Like no,

I was sitting here just now looking at Yasir Qadhi's Facebook page and he's all upset about what

Wheaton did and I'm a little surprised by that and yeah, I'm a little surprised and So I'm gonna be when we get done when

I get home I'm gonna If I have time write up an article, I actually asked a

Question of dr. Qadhi on his on his page. I'll see if he if he responds to that at all

It could be it could be interesting but anyway, there's things to be discussing

You know, that's that's a good question right there. Do we do we worship the same God?

and Issues like that all the stuff that's going on with With Islam and Christianity in the world and so we could have some good so good conversations, but Especially Especially We're talking about my getting to Hong Kong I think we could

What are you saying? I'm gonna have to flap my wings to be able to do that. Huh? Is that the only way I'm gonna get there?

Let's hope that's not what you're saying because you're gonna have to help make that happen, too But I really think we could have some great encounters.

It would be very very useful. Maybe what you'll is the one to Address some of these topics that we've we've wanted to move the ball forward.

We've wanted to advance the conversation Maybe he's maybe he's the one to do that Maybe that's some something we could work out.

We'd have to talk with our I know there's a reform Baptist Church in Hong Kong we'd have to have some some some support there in the area to to make it work and But we're gonna try so what

I want to do today The system is down that's interesting

Everybody is saying the system is down YouTube down Etc, etc.

That's what everybody in the channel is saying. Is it we're deader than the proverbial doornail Everything looks good on this side

Now Ryan says just tuning in so I don't know the people on the channel are acting strangely

Oh Arlen saying I can't load a omen org. So that could be it.

I don't know So maybe YouTube's working fine, but a omens not

I don't know But we're recording this and it may be too early for what you'll to be watching anyways work for you

Okay Book says a omen is down, but Peru says it's okay.

So I these guys they don't know what they're doing These these people in channel there. They're very strange people. So what

I want to do is I'm going to make this response personally to why oh and You get to listen in and We're gonna be talking about the

Trinity and We're gonna be talking about Well what my book says

Because why y 'all sent me a picture He sent me a picture of him holding my book smiling well

There are lots of things in that book that we're gonna be referring to because they came up in the presentation

So we're gonna listen to what what I'll had to say We're gonna be starting and stopping

Responding so this is gonna be a intensely Trinitarian Intensely Islamic apologetics dividing line

And I hope that that's good for you Sort like the last program where we were looking at a video presentation but We'll be doing it

On a completely different subject here. So well, here we go. Let's listen to what you have to say.

I Hope as I've said in email That you hear my heart for doing this this is not

This is not well, you know, I just want to win a debate type of situation I want you to understand

Accurately and fully what we believe and why we believe it and I want to be able to Interact with you on the basis of an accurate knowledge just this is why this is why

I've listened to the debate twice This is why The the last book that I've been listening to on my rides

I think I mentioned to you that I do a lot of my study while riding a bike while running today.

I Decided to kick 53 years in the face by doing a half marathon on my birthday

Which I did this morning set a PR. It's nothing fast. I'm not a fast runner but I'm getting a little better at it slowly, but surely and Listen to the debate again and caught a few things.

I hadn't caught before But the reason that the last book

I'm listening to is on the authentication of Hadith Khan's work very challenging work that I'm not sure if you're familiar with if you are

I'd like to talk with you about it because it If you accept his arguments It would fundamentally change the science of Hadith and and really would change

Sunni Islam. I think as a whole But the reason that I do that kind of studying the reason

I've listened to all of Bukhari and all of Muslim and I listened to You know lectures by Sheikh Yasir Qadhi and and all sorts of other people all the time

Very regularly is because I want to understand with accuracy. I hope you recognize that is a sign of respect to you

I consider it respectful when someone is accurate in their Representations of me and so I have to do that in the other other direction as well

I really care for the Muslim people and I believe that we need to talk

Something was said by the moderator of the first real Muslim debate that I did at Biola University in 2006 with Shabbir Ali The moderator said if you do not allow two different groups to argue all they'll be able to do is fight and I think there's great truth in that.

We need to be able to argue. I'm not asking you to ever compromise I'm not gonna compromise.

I don't think I'm showing love for God for the gospel or for you if I compromise and So I'm not gonna ask you to get wishy -washy and postmodern and touchy -feely

We don't believe the same things There is no way to come up with Chris long or anything like it

One of us Logically rationally Either we're both wrong or one of the two of us is wrong.

But the only thing it's absolutely impossible is that we're both, right? and I know there are all sorts of gooey eyed

Folks running around the world today Thinking that well, you know We're all just worshiping the same

God and and we're all gonna get there at the end and blah blah blah Doesn't work that way and I think you would you would agree that it doesn't work with that that way either

So, I hope that you will I Hope that you will

Hear me as I speak to you in that way, even when I have to say well, you're wrong

You misunderstand this or you misunderstand that I hope you take it as an educational thing And that you'll check out what

I have to say. Don't just accept it because I say it I noticed that you are a student of biblical Hebrew.

And so there is gonna be a point You made a statement You uh, you channeled your inner

Akhmedida at one point during the Q &A and I caught it. I heard it and I think you know what

I'm talking about. And so before we get done, I've got to Really make sure we get to your comment on Isaiah 9 6 and so I'm sure you'll have your

Biblia Hebraic astute cartencia sitting around anyways but you'll definitely want to have it because I want to talk to you about Isaiah 9 6 and What you said about that?

that's in the Q &A thing and If we don't get started here pretty soon, we'll never get to it. Anyways, so here is

Wael Ibrahim, let's let's start watching Oops Known in the past couple of months is

Lee although today he would be a bit annoying ringing bills and all Before I get started

I wanted to do something different today before watching into the topic by asking all the audience respectfully to stand up If you don't mind,

I'm serious, by the way Yeah, it's it's uh, you know We don't meet quite often

And this is a good opportunity to embrace one another before getting into the debate and of course

Islamically if you're a male, you shouldn't embrace a sister. You shouldn't So embrace your own gender

And try to find a Muslim to embrace if you're a Christian try to embrace a Muslim if you're a Muslim sister Try to embrace a

Christian sister welcome them to our event. We are very honored to have you guys here we love you all for Allah's sake and The hug starts now now being

Scottish. Yeah being Scottish. I would be like, yeah Yeah, I mean y 'all y 'all know what a

Yeah, y 'all know what a Scottish hug looks like right I'm showing you no, no, no, no

You don't know what a Scottish hug looks like. Oh Okay Okay, I'm gonna give everyone in the audience a

Scottish hug. You ready? There you go. Got it. Okay See that what you need it again.

Okay. All right There you go Got it. Okay. I just want to make sure you know what a

Scottish hug was. All right, good So we've got the hug going on here. You may take your seat now. Thank you.

All right Bismillah alhamdulillah wa salatu wa salamu ala rasool

Allah he sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in the name of Allah the maker of the heavens and the earth and Maker of everything and everyone that exists and may

God's peace and blessings be upon the last and final messenger Muhammad peace be upon him and all those messengers and prophets who preceded him

I May have no much time to welcome you further. So I wanted to dwell right straight into the topic

I have known Lincoln for many years now. We have developed this very nice and Lovely relationship and of friendship and genuine friendship because whenever we meet we talk about God We don't waste our time meeting for something and we don't go clubbing.

We don't go nightclubs and all that stuff We just need to discuss about God and that what makes the relationship genuine

I respect him for what he believes in although we disagree in a great deal which

And whenever we discuss with Lincoln about God Almighty Always the discussion end up talking about Trinity.

That's why I insisted Let us take it to the public because whenever we talk about the fall of Adam we end up talking about Trinity We talk about the divinity of Jesus.

We end up talking about the Trinity every topic in You know every more important doctrine

Believed by the Christians practiced by the Christians revolves around the Trinity and therefore

Discussing it in public and getting you know Get to the the root of the matter.

It's for me from my perspective is really important Now now I only thank you for for noting that True biblical

Orthodox Christianity is Trinitarian. It all ends up coming back to that. It always comes back to What God has done in Jesus Christ that when we talk about the cross

The cross is inherently Trinitarian. The resurrection is Trinitarian The gospel of Jesus Christ is

Trinitarian finds its origin in God the Father its accomplishment in God the Son its application in God the

Spirit you're you're exactly right and You're you're more right than a lot of Christians who think the

Trinity is something out there It's just one of a bunch of Doctrines that they've never really brought together into a whole and so there's there's much truth to what you have said there and I'm glad that when you and Lincoln meet

It always comes back to God and I'm glad that Lincoln is someone who is willing to love enough to speak the truth and That's a good thing

We'll start by discussing the concept the concept of God being Absolute one as Muslims believe and then the concept of the

Trinity God as an absolute one. This is what I meant by unity when we say unity.

We don't mean Few people came together to form one thing No We believe that God is a single entity and this is what the

Muslims believe their scriptures Told this throughout the pages of the Quran throughout the teaching of the

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and the most popular of all is the Surah number 112 and it is called this chapter of al -ikhlas or the sincerity

We believe that worshipping one God is the most sincere words

You could ever utter acknowledging the Creator acknowledging the maker as being one Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala

Now I just I just stopped for a moment to point out to the audience that has followed this program for years

If you if you've ever seen for example my presentations on Islam If you've been in one of the churches where I've spoken,

I'm not talking why you to you at this moment, but One pretty much the after I go over the the five pillars the six

Basic truths of Sunni Islam when I start getting into the Quran and to the key issues the very first text

I go to assert al -ikhlas and Discuss what it means how we can agree with three of the four ayat

That third ayah. However, let me yell it while I'm yelled Is I think directly addressed to Christians and That's where I start the discussion of what

Islam believes concerning Jesus is a son of God things related to to that but so that a class absolutely foundational here you have a

Muslim speaker and where does he start same place where I say, you know,

I mean Muhammad said to to quote sir that a class is to quote a third of the Quran It is that central it's as close as you can get to a creedal statement in The text of the

Quran itself. And so we're definitely on the same Wavelength at that point said on the

Quran tell them Oh Muhammad He Allah is one and only and the word

I had The word I had which is very similar to the Hebrew word We will be discussing it shortly inshallah means what means one and no one else beside that one

It means one and nothing else shares the oneness of that one. He is one Individual being that's it.

That is God Almighty now What you're presenting is What we would identify as?

Unitarianism unfortunately, the the biggest area of confusion

In your argumentation Which I addressed at the very beginning of the

Forgotten Trinity was the issue of Unitarianism versus Trinitarianism Which is not monotheism versus polytheism now, you're gonna make a very interesting statement here in a few moments

Where you're gonna say that you confess that Christians believe in one God and that no

Muslim ever says otherwise Well, let me tell you something We've had lots of Muslims say otherwise

Yusuf Ismail IPCI South Africa in the Juma Masjid last year 2014

You can watch the debate on YouTube Specifically said I know you claim to be a monotheist

James, but you are a polytheist. He was very clear about that We've had many Muslims. In fact,

I would say the vast majority of Muslims with whom we have interacted Sheikhs Imams published authors

Specifically state that Christianity The Christianity is polytheistic and So someone just posted a rather funny picture on Twitter again

I'm easily distracted way. Oh, please forgive me. Anyways, well if it's right in front of me

I'm I like to interact with folks if you pop up on Twitter Since we're following each other now,

I'll respond to you too. So but someone just posted a very humorous picture

That especially Reformed Baptists would find particularly humorous Anyway, but the issue again that we're going to be focusing upon here is

I don't I did not get the feeling and many of you since many of your arguments were based upon this

I did not get the feeling That you Understand the functional distinction between being in person being is what makes something what it is

Person makes someone who they are and So we do not believe there are three beings

There is only one divine being and that one divine being is identified as Yahweh Later on the presentation you're gonna say that if someone believes that Jesus Yahweh, that's a

Christian heresy. No, it's not There's an entire chapter a lengthy chapter in my book

Demonstrate the New Testament writers while clearly distinguishing between the Father the Son and the

Spirit Identify the Father is Yahweh and the Son is Yahweh and the Spirit's the Spirit of Yahweh so There that seems to be one of the primary areas of confusion is

You did not grasp in the reading of my book the central emphasis at the beginning in the recognition that what we're talking about is one absolute being of God and When Deuteronomy 6 4 says

Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh Chad That echad is referring to the being of God there is only one

Yahweh only by assuming Unitarianism, can you can you

Argue against what the biblical revelation is and that is there's one Yahweh and then that same

Bible Even back in Genesis gives us indications that Yahweh is not

Unitarian and That becomes explicit in the incarnation and the outpouring of the

Holy Spirit Like I said in the book. Well what you need to understand The Doctrine of the

Trinity is revealed between Malachi and Matthew Between Malachi and Matthew in that that blank space in the gutter of the

Bible That's where the Trinity is revealed. And what I mean by that is the fundamental evidence the fundamental revelation of the

Doctrine of the Trinity is in the incarnation of the Son and The outpouring of the Holy Spirit and that took place after Malachi and before Matthew So it's prophetically viewed in the future from the

Old Testament perspective But the New Testament is written in the light of the fullness of that revelation

The Son has come he's given his life he's he's been crucified buried risen again exalted the right hand of the

Father and now the New Testament is the the documentation of the life of The church that grows out of that redemptive act accomplished by Father Son and Spirit They've been clearly differentiated from one another.

It was not the Father who became flesh It was not the Spirit who came flesh. It was the Son Jesus said that Unless he goes back to the

Father then the Spirit could not be sent Jesus uses personal pronouns of both the

Father and the Spirit those there's there's clear differentiation and yet There is no repudiation of the

Shema. In fact, there is an acceptance and yet expansion of the Shema in first Corinthians 8 6 through 7

Demonstrating that the the Christian Church fully understood fully knew That God had done something awesome and fantastic in His own self -revelation in The incarnation of Jesus Christ and the outpouring of the

Holy Spirit that's where the the doctrine of the Trinity is actually revealed in that historical reality and so We are forced

By believing in what God has revealed To the doctrine of the Trinity.

It's not something that came 300 years later And then you play around the Bible enough to make it work. No Nothing in the

New Testament makes sense The way that Jesus referred to the way the spirits referred to the very the very form of the gospel.

None of that makes sense Unless you recognize that the writers in New Testament are speaking from a

Trinitarian experience Peter was a Experiential Trinitarian he had walked with the son.

He had heard the father speaking on the Mount of Transfiguration He was now indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He was an experiential

Trinitarian I'm a biblical Trinitarian because I believe in the doctrine of the

Trinity based upon accepting all Well only Scripture and all of Scripture So just a few thoughts there.

I realized that I keep stopping it this much. We're never ever gonna get this done Venetian in many of the dictionaries many of the

Arabic dictionaries shows that he is One of Allah's names and attributes is al -ahad the one which means the solo single nothing similar to him

He's single in his oneness attributes and characteristics and descriptions Now you're you're assuming that a had or a had in Arabic But you're assuming that a had for example,

Deuteronomy 6 for is a oneness both of being and person

But since you never made that distinguish that that that differentiation necessary differentiation

Then you never bothered to prove that it's a oneness of person Now I would argue we probably have different sources of authority here in the sense that Though you will argue from the

New Testament You didn't Take into consideration or allow into the argument the many places where Jesus is simply called

God. He's identified as Jehovah He's described in words, it could only be used of the Creator and If you're like most

Sunni Muslims with whom I have dialogue that's because you don't believe that any of that's true and that all of those scripture passages have are either fallacious or Corrupted or whatever whatever perspective you might end up taking on that.

But the reality is that Jesus is described in the

New Testament in ways that no Mere razzle Sir, if I've sir for 171 and sir 570 so on so forth

No, mere razzle could be described in the ways that Jesus is described in the text of the

New Testament itself so you're assuming that a had is a

Unitarian term But you didn't prove that In Deuteronomy 6 for it's saying there's one being of God Yahweh Eluhenu Yahweh is our

God Yahweh a God. Well, you meet a context is the being of God and we believe there's only one being of God But that being of God is shared by three persons.

So a had is not a refutation of the Trinity You may assume that it is but it's but it but it's not

Allah subhanahu wa'ta 'ala God Almighty Addressed the Christians and the Jews regarding this matter and he told him if you guys believe in one

God Then do not say Trinity if you really believe in one being Called God, then why do you say

Trinity? That's the sir for 171 and You got into a

You got into an argument with Lincoln about something I don't know that y 'all needed to be arguing about to be pretty honest with you

Lincoln's point is going to be sorry about that Lincoln's point is is going to be that there was a specific technical term

For try unity in Arabic that was used by Christians Belleth is an is an ordinal number.

It's a it's just a number three do not say three It does not say do not say

Trinity now. I agree the author of The Quran is trying to say

Trinity but There's something else going on in those texts.

You you have sir of 4171 Up on the screen. I'm just I guess

I can just sort of roll this up onto that and you'll be able to see it Won't you? Yeah, look at that, um, oh

I'll keep tab the people of the scripture Now at one point, I I'm not sure but I think you may have actually said this could be either

Jews or Christians But it's obviously only Christians Because it the the the warnings against excess in the

Quran are aimed at us We're not the ones who received wrath. We're the ones who've been led astray.

That's the I think you do agree the earliest Tafsir interpretations of Sir at the

Fatiha is That those are led astray while a darling, that's that's

Christians and that's having gone into excess and So Oh people of scripture do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth

The Messiah G is the son of Mary was but a messenger of Allah and his word which he directed

Mary and a soul created a command from him so believe in Allah and his messengers and Do not say three

Desist it is better for you. Indeed. Allah is but one God. So the point that Lincoln was making is that the technical term the

Holy Trinity that was used by Christians at time does not appear in the Quran phallus is meant to be referring to the

Trinity, but it's not the same word and Notice something else while and I brought this out in my book on the trip on the

Quran which Rich will be packing up to send to you this afternoon signed copy and That is this every time phallus appears and It said do not say it

What is the very next line every time? Every single time, you know what it is.

There is only one God. There is only one Allah Now We have a large

In the United States we have a couple cities that are large enough that there are multiple sports teams in the same sport in that city, for example,

Los Angeles in basketball, you've got the Clippers and And You've got the

Lakers What? Was forgetting forget about the Lakers. Yeah That they are rather forgettable right now.

Kobe's retiring. So, um in Chicago in baseball You've got the

Cubs in the White Sox. Okay If if I were in the context of speaking about basketball in Los Angeles To say do not say to there is only one team and let's say

I was a Lakers fan so I was just and for a long and for many Years, that's the way it was. I mean the

Lakers were great the Clippers now It's a Lakers fan would be like a Dallas Cowboys fan. They would think that there's only one team in Dallas You're messing it all up.

Stop it Sorry If I were to say do not say to there is only one team

Would there be any question about what I was saying when I said to No saying do not say there's two teams

So when the Quran every single time it says do not say three. There is only one

God. What's it saying? it seems painfully obvious to me and given that the vast majority vast majority of Muslims with whom we have spoken have confirmed this by their own reading of the

Quran What the Quran saying is not say there are three gods. There's only one God and So that's the the issue in regards to the use of the word three

Well, I've read the Quran many times I There there are there are better students of Islam than I I'm still learning

I was just I Was just in conversation with a gentleman who's a great resource to me

He really is a great resource to me fluent in Arabic my Arabic stinks And I'm gonna have to do something about trying to revive at least some of it

But my Arabic is not as good as it even once was because I don't have the opportunity of reviewing it all that much but At least

I'm a Christian who knows what Tafsir literature is Has entire collections of it sitting on my shelf and I was just talking to this friend of mine.

I was going um, I really need to know what al -razi said on these ayat and He's kind enough to go.

He's got al -razi right there. He can read it provide me with the insights and Do you know too many

Christians that before they comment on? Surah 5 116 surah 4 171.

They've looked at al -jalaleen. They've looked at ibn kathir Kurt to be

It's you know You've looked at the hadith. You've looked at the Tafsir literature

Yeah, you try to find out and and as you know that you're gonna find differences between them

It's not a hundred percent. I mean That reminds me I need to yeah, okay

I see what it is. All right. See right back here. Well, you that's muqattas

Tafsir right back, yeah, you right there and I'm Trying to buy this set for that young man that gentleman so we can make reference to it.

It's all in Arabic and I found a set that's only three volumes. That's five volumes, but very obviously volumes one and five

I think our index is an introduction. So I think the three volume is the actual Tafsir itself and so maybe

I will get him that one. Anyways, I just checked on the air live. This is live stuff We don't edit this stuff

Who would who would want to um? You know, I find that to be an incredibly important source

Because it's one of the earliest Tafsir and it's before all the standards developed and says to be honest with you a little more

Honesty and some of the things that says for example the the open recognition of Razum variations in the text of the

Quran that go back to Early early early sources

Dubai have been Cobb and and so on so forth. Anyway, I I try to Utilize these sources.

I try to find out what's being understood and I try to handle the text of the

Quran in a meaningful fashion and it just strikes me getting back to the point here that it's

It's pretty straightforward what the Quran is is stating here and It is contrasting monotheism with polytheism

Not a Unitarian monotheism with a Trinitarian Polytheism in all the study that I have done of the

Quran what you know, I'm I've become convinced that the

Author of the Quran did not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. I Know Muslims today who have a much greater

Understanding of the doctrines of Trinity than the author of the Quran did Now think about what that means

I think it's I think it's rather important But there you go

Let's let's get back to what you're saying saying here Like I said, we'll never even get close to getting done and this is mentioned in chapter number four verse number 171

He say do not say Trinity for God is just one God make it simple Don't go into extreme in your religion and I want to make a statement before I dwell further into the topic and that is

I Believe as most Muslims that the Christians do believe in one

God. I Want to repeat that again? I believe personally as all the

Muslims or most of them we believe wholeheartedly that the Christians our

Friends our even some of the converts their family members. They do affirm that God is absolutely one

Like I said, well, I'm glad you're saying that But I'm sorry my experience and I've got a lot of experience, you know,

I mean I've debated in the UK Australia's South Africa United States, Canada and You're in the minority

That's my experience. Now. You can say well your experiences with You know

Muslim apologists those engaged in Dawa. Well, but you do Dawa Do you think

I'm gonna do that would have said that no, I'm gonna do that would not have said that I'm gonna do that had a lot of misapprehensions about the

Christian faith and So I I'm very thankful that you say this But I think you need to recognize a lot of your

Muslim your Muslim compatriots do not in fact say that All right

We do not say that the Christians believe in three separate gods. We don't say that I haven't seen any

Muslim who believe in this foolishness Right. However your language suggested otherwise

The language that you're using to explain to us the Trinity Suggests that you guys believe in three separate gods as we will discuss

Soon now, well, you know, could I suggest something to you? First of all There are a lot of Christians Who are very fuzzy in their understanding of the doctrine to Trinity In fact when you quote from me, that's what

I'm talking about And I'll talk about that in a moment we get to it because you're just about to get there One of the questions well the audience questions it was asked of you

During the Q &A was actually unorthodox It was

It was from a non -trinitarian perspective But what we call the modalistic perspective not the sad thing is

I sort of doubt the person had asked it realized They're asking you a modalistic question. You didn't realize it and Prior the

Christian asking you that didn't realize it either which is a shame Now by the way what you'll

You may you may have noticed my sweater today and I wear it in honor of you.

It's It's called a Coogee. It is they're special to me. I really really like them

But if you see me chuckling once in a while, it's because on Twitter People make comments

About my sweaters and it's sometimes it just hurts Jason said my 14 year old daughter just said ah, he's wearing an ugly

Christmas sweater and Aaron I'm watching the DL and my wife looked at my computer and she said that's a

Cosby sweater. And yes. Yes it is Now there is a day when that was a good thing

It's not so much a good thing anymore, but I don't know that really has anything to do with sweaters, but yes

Yes, Cosby did did popularize these these sweaters in the United States, but They're in Hong Kong.

You've you've been I saw a video of you down in Australia So you've probably seen that these are

Australian made there. They're beautiful. They're wonderful. They're great. They're fantastic and people need to control their

Coogee phobia Because I'm gonna keep wearing them whether you Complain about or not.

So we press on I bet you a while you wish you could wear a Coogee like this, but it really wouldn't fit

As a try on one Trinity, here's the concept one of the definitions given in Systematic theology the author say

God eternally exists. Excuse me. Yeah, I just realized I forgot My point last time

I was distracted by Twitter. Um, is it possible? Well That it's not the language we use.

It's the presuppositions you import into that language You're presupposing

Unitarianism You're you're presupposing certain things and that that's why the language if you allowed us to define our terms

That it wouldn't be as unclear maybe possibly I think it's at least part partly the issue eternally exists in three persons father son and Holy Spirit and now listen to this the one that I highlighted in the presentation and each

Person is fully God Now here where the confusion arises

Why? Lay aside lay aside your presuppositions for a moment if What we're saying is that there is a difference between being in person everything that exists

Has being I have a little You've heard a straw man arguments while you well someone

Oh falling apart Definitely not indivisible

Um We were talking about straw man, I forget what the topic was but someone sent in a straw man and I actually oh

I've been looking for this I'll have to remember that I was trying to light a candle in the other room now we

We know but um, anyway Now this straw man has being it exists if I were to take it and Whack you in the head with it.

I think it would break before it would do anything to you But you'd feel it it it exists.

It has existence But it is not personal it has being But it's not personal.

I Could sit there and say you are the most beautiful straw man ever And it doesn't care

Or I could go you're the ugliest straw man ever same reaction Why because being is not personal it existed as being but it is not personal and I think ontologically speaking

Muslims and Christians would both Agree at least primarily that That from Revelation God men and angels are personal personal in the sense of recognizing their own existence recognizing the existence of others like them capacity for speech obedience worship

The things that we would associate with with personhood and So if you're if you're going to recognize

That God exists and has being then you're going to have to ask is the being

The same as the person Or is it possible for God's being which is unlimited infinite eternal to be shared by three persons not three human beings

The term person and and this is one of the criticisms you made and I was a little surprised by it because I think

I think some of the some of the commentators and theologians of the third and fourth centuries, especially in the

Islamic period address similar issues and Recognize that we cannot

Avoid the reality that there are things about God and in Islamic theology about Allah That are beyond our comprehension

We are but creatures When you consider the eternality of Allah Are you saying that you can fully comprehend eternality?

I would say that you cannot Right now as we as I communicate with you,

I'm using speech I'm using tensed verbal systems To speak of past present and future

How does that work with an eternal being who does not exist within time or is not limited by time?

Or whose experience of time is completely other than than our own however, you want to put it our

Our language and our experience is insufficient to even grasp the the extensiveness of God Let alone the infinity of God in time and space and So at times you were basically saying well, it sounds like the trinity is so complicated so difficult and little children should understand

But the reality is you and I don't understand those basic elements of God's existence Understand the sense of comprehend them take them in Have intellect big enough to exhaust all of the meaning of that.

We don't have that but I understand that God's eternal I understand the concept and I understand the assertion and I accept it.

So I attempt to differentiate between saying understanding and comprehending

We can understand that God says I am like this But comprehending that is a different issue especially when we're talking about something where God is completely unique and What you're gonna do here

In your argumentation is to confuse being in person

You're going to Not Recognize what the distinction is you're gonna equivocate on that distinction and Then you're gonna say well, this is just so this is so complex who you even ask the audience who here is confused by the trinity

Well, who's who here is confused by the discussion of The Quran being uncreated.

I mean, I appreciate your explanation of that, but that's not how most other Sunni Muslims explain it

If if the Quran is is uncreated and eternal simply because it was a part of God's knowledge of future events every book in its totality is

Therefore uncreated because did not Allah know the content of every book that would ever be written So I don't think that's what they were saying.

I don't I don't think that's what the final orthodox Sunni solution that issue was

And that was a that was a doctrine that developed over a long period of time

It's not just well Allah had knowledge of it You would you had mentioned the

Prophet Ezekiel was actually Jeremiah Jeremiah 1 5, you know I've a point I knew you pointed you the term there knew you da

Has well look up you die, you know that when Adam you died Eve She had a child and you da can also mean choose when

God says to Israel and Amos as I recall you only of all the nations the earth have

I known he wasn't saying I'll Egyptians don't know never heard of that's not what he was saying. Yeah da has the meaning of to choose and That's what he's saying to Jeremiah.

But the point is that Discussion of the

Quran and it's being uncreated over against anything else Very confusing.

It's very difficult to follow. Does that make it wrong? So Recognizing ontology recognize difference in being a person

Yeah, a lot of modern people don't think much about it. We function every day on that You know,

I was just talking about I just did a run this morning at one point, you know, it happens I I hit a rock, you know, just not a pebble but a you know, a small rock with my toe, you know put on my shoe and It went bouncing off into the canal.

I was running next to I Did not stop to try to rescue that rock Never crossed my mind

Now my toe knew that the rock had being but my mind knew that the rock did not have personhood

Now if that had been a human being that I ran into and knocked into the water then

I would have surely stopped to try to help that individual because I function on recognizing the difference between being in person and so do you

Just because we may not talk about it Doesn't mean those categories are not valid categories to utilize and are absolutely necessary categories to utilize

When talking about this very this very issue I would say as a

Muslim I wouldn't really argue for now for the sake of arguments for the sake of debates that God exists in three persons

All right. Okay for the sake of argument. I would say all right, no problem However to tell me that each of them is

God. Here is the problem that we cannot grasp. We cannot understand. Why not?

You and I are both human beings But we are different persons We share a common humanity

But that's on the level of being on a level of personhood We can't share that When people have more than one person in them

They sort of put him in those rooms and wrap him up and give him drugs and things like that So, why not

I mean again Assuming that you've read the book. This was this was a basic thing that I introduced at the very beginning now

Every analogy to God is going to break down every analogy because if God's unique then every analogy is is going to Break down at some point

You and I are our common humanity My Human being is finite and limited

God's being is infinite and eternal. So there is a distinction between you two But the ontology

Personhood issue remains the same even though in what's the creature and the other it's

God and that it also explains why? What dr. Grudem? Was saying there is true.

Dr. Grudem teaches at Phoenix Seminary. I've gotten to teach at Phoenix Seminary He's right here in the valley and what he was saying is when he says that each one is

God see in your mind you take the word God and as a Unitarian you identify that as an individual so you coalesce being in person and make it one and Then you read books from people who recognize the difference and then you get confused and think that what they're saying is confusing when it's

Not what they're saying that's confusing When he says the father is

God He's not saying the father is one person and the son is the same person the spirit

We're talking about the being of God. The father is deity fully and completely

God So is the son? What we're saying is that being of God Infinite eternal cannot be cut into three parts cannot be cut into ten parts or a thousand parts there's only one being of God and Because that being is infinite eternal shared by three divine persons distinguished from one another but as to their being

Same infinite and eternal being Identified in Bible in the Bible is

Yahweh. So when you say we can't grasp this

I Honestly, well, I didn't get any feeling that you understood it So so it's not like you're rejecting it.

I just don't think you understand it what we're actually saying You you're your assumption of Unitarianism.

And by the way, you're gonna say this. He said you said to the audience he said You Said remember whenever Christians say

God They mean father son Holy Spirit. No again if you read the book

There may be some places Where in speaking in general terms

We are using the term in that way but especially in the New Testament and remember and This is gonna come up when we talk about Isaiah 9, but When we are talking about father son,

Holy Spirit, those are New Testament revelations Normally in the

New Testament. The father is simply identified as the us God The son as Kodios Lord Kodios the

Greek term the Greek Septuagint that translates the divine name Yahweh The spirit is the spirit of the

OS or Kodios Father son, it's used interchangeably sometimes in the same sentence or verse

But You're creating a confusion that does not exist in our mind anyways

When you say they always are referring to father son, Holy Spirit. That's just not true Blessed be the

God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ We're not thinking the word

God there is father son, Holy Spirit who is also father of our Lord Jesus Christ It's just no that's not worth not what we're thinking

Believing teaching you could not substantiate that from any of our sources

So I wouldn't tell folks that because that's that's really not an accurate way of understanding what we're saying.

I So whenever the

Christians pray to God and say Oh God, they have actually three persons They picture three persons father son and the

Holy Spirit They explain further that the father is not the Holy Spirit and the

Holy Spirit is not the son and the son is not the father And the other way around the father is not the son.

The son is not the Holy Spirit The Holy Spirit is not the father yet at the same time In the same breath do you say what the father is

God The son is God now we'll look at look at look at the screen look look at what you have there as Long as you recognize the distinction between being and person that makes perfect sense you have three persons and Then the middle you have the ontological grounding of those three person

The being of God Only by confusing those two things do you become confused we're not confused by it

We're not we're not engaging in equivocation We recognize the difference between being in person just like you do in any other thing

I mean You're you don't look like you're as old as I am but and they probably never had this where you were but back in years and years ago

We had a really weird thing here in the United States where we had something called pet rocks and It didn't last long that you know,

I I have I have some cats and and They're actually useful, you know, they they are warm and fluffy and they purr and and they're enjoyable to have around pet rocks

No, no, yeah, I guess some people could try to pet them but you just didn't get much out of them and What I'd like you to think about well, you know is is you're talking about this stuff get yourself a pet rock and When you're making up your objections to the

Trinity explain them to the pet rock and it'll start helping you to understand There's a difference between being the pet rock will help you to hold books open.

You can just you know, sit there. It'll Great great book opening device paper holder, whatever

But no matter how clearly you explain things it just you know, it's not gonna it's not gonna follow

It's not gonna follow and the reason for that is It's not personal

There's a difference between being in person and that very graphic right there in the center

You have being on the outside you have person and that makes perfect sense three persons who are not confused by another

But each is fully God that is deity not each is fully another person

The only way you can make that contradictory is to conflate the categories that we are not conflating and why ill

When I try to understand your beliefs I Try to understand your context

You need to do the same thing It will make your arguments a lot better because right now you're arguing is something that we don't actually believe

The Holy Spirit is God now when we say that Pay attention here.

These are three gods now. You say no, they are one and This is what we get lost as Muslims and not only

Muslims, by the way There are many Christians around the world who don't get it who don't believe in it and they call themselves

Unitarians, for example They don't understand they don't believe in it and they believe that God is undivided one well, you know if Do you believe that the

Akmadi are Muslim? I'd be interested in knowing most

Sunnis will not accept the Akmadi in the fold of Islam why because Absolutely definitional to Islamic theology is the concept that Muhammad is the final prophet

We all know the Akmadi have a prophet after Muhammad Absolutely central and definitional

Christianity is the deity of Christ. Therefore if you deny the deity of Christ, you're not a Christian Why are

Muslims so intense? upon redefining Christianity when

I doubt that you would accept the redefinition of Islam for the purposes of apologetic argumentation

So I've just always wondered why that is Why there's this desire to make

Unitarians who deny the very central doctrines of our faith in the Christians I mean,

I know they claim that but the Akmadi claim the same thing, right that even scales thing again the biblical understanding

Of who God is according to 1st

Corinthians, for example 1433 God is not the author of confusion now

I want it by a show of hands whether you're a Muslim or otherwise and we are people of God. We shouldn't lie

And I'm glad for that at the same time as Lincoln pointed out to you later on this debate.

That's not what that text is about The that text is about order in the worship service of the local church it's not about whether you can make somebody else's viewpoint look confusing and What you know if I wanted to if I wanted to make?

Tauheed and the nature of the Quran Shirk the unforgivability of Shirk if I want to make all this stuff look really

Confusing to Christians and then quote that text and say see as long as wrong the easy to do

I don't do it it would be a misuse of the text and I Realized that making your faith

Confusing to people who don't understand it that really take any effort and so when

Muslims Try to make my faith Look confusing to people

What what are you trying to accomplish there? And so when you ask the audience how many of you find this simple

I've taught the Trinity to sub Junior high schoolers

I Can do it So what what's what's accomplished by this?

I I think you could I think you could do better at that one We shouldn't lie who amongst the audience here get confused when the

Trinity is mentioned or explained raise of your hand Okay, don't be shy

Mashallah all the Muslims understand the Trinity Surprise Okay, okay

You gotta admit whale The look on your face right now is

Not the best Note to self do not ask for do not take audience polls in future debates

They're all sitting there going. I'm not gonna mm -hmm. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do that.

Trust me Been there done that got the t -shirt many many times not so much in debates

But I have a standing joke. I Have done it hundreds of times and there's this one point where I'm showing a picture of of a manuscript up on the screen p46 and I Asked everybody in the audience

Do you think that p46 contained or did it before it not p46?

it's the the papyri with the epistles of Paul and I I Asked do you think it contained

Hebrews or didn't contain Hebrews because no one knows who wrote Hebrews and so some people think Paul did And and so I asked

I take a poll Every single time a

Bunch of people just sit there I'm not voting. You can't get me to vote. I don't know.

I'm not gonna say you're not gonna make me look like a fool every single time everything I Guess that's what happened to you

That's funny all the Muslims understand the Trinity that didn't work too well, let's move on no God Almighty in the same

Bible in John 4 22 it says we worship that is

Jesus now saying we worship what we know We worship what we know so we cannot worship something unknown.

We cannot worship something that we don't understand That is what Jesus said. I don't want to tell you something about this picture now

If your point is we don't know what the Doctrine of Trinity is, well, I'm sorry you're wrong We we do

I'm hoping that by the time we finish this review and by the way, I'm not gonna even get close to your opening statement today

I apologize. We're obviously gonna have to continue this But we

Jesus's point was the contrast between the Jews who possessed

The full revelation from God in Scripture and the Samaritans who rejected most of that so again let's be contextually honest with the

With the thing there. I agree Paganism worships of God you do not know

Christianity asserts that God has revealed himself and in fact has revealed himself in a shocking way

He's entered into his own creation That's why I will if you if you would

Still to this day, maybe you and I could shoot for eclipsing this but to this day my favorite debate that I have done with a

Muslim was done at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia a few years ago with a wonderful young Muslim apologist by name of Abdullah Kunda and Abdullah read the

Forgotten Trinity sought to understand it and we did a debate. Can God become man?

I mean we just got down to what really separates us and If you look that up Abdullah Kunda James White, it'll come up on YouTube.

I think you'll see a very High bar set for the kind of interactions that can be had

Between Muslims and Christians and especially on the subjects that can be it can be addressed I think you'd find it to be very useful if you haven't if you haven't seen it

This is the favorite Cracks of my son I show him these three packs and I told him if I were to tell you that these three packs are actually one my son

Is seven years old? Just to show you that by nature the mind the heart cannot accept that concept impossible to explain according to some theologians

I don't know of any I know what you're talking about And I don't think you understand the quote that you're gonna give in a moment

But that graphic is Tritheism That's not the

Trinity All that stuff you talked about later the Babylonian Egyptian all that's it.

It's not Trinity That's three different package There is no unity there

There is there is no Ontological unity that's why no analogy can work because God's existence is completely unique but that Is not even close

To a representation of the doctrine of the Trinity not not even close. It's just it's just it just really isn't

Google code soon, so I told my son if I were to tell you that these three packs are one What would you say say no

Papa? They are three. I say no suppose the I'm telling you that they are one You say that would be lying That's my son

I didn't discuss with him Trinity I didn't discuss You know to with him about God I just told him this picture how many are they there are three they can never be one

God James White one of the most conservative Christians of our time. He debated many people around.

He's a Trinitarian he said in His forgotten Trinity book. He said we hang a person's very salvation upon the acceptance of the doctrine

No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a heretic we must know

Understand and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian now my question to Lincoln.

Do you agree with James White? And if you do agree with James White then in your turn when you come over on the stage

I want you to let us know. How did you Lincoln? Know how did you understand that very complicated?

Concept how did you know? Because if you know and understand it and love it, then according to James White you are a complete

Christian However, there are other scholars who disagree with James White. I Don't think so And you actually reverse the order of that, you know, sir

Yet we seem rather confused this point because most Christians take a firm stand of the Trinity and the fundamental issues that lead to it the deity of Christ person

Holy Spirit We withhold fellowship from groups like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses because they reject the

Trinity replace it with another concept We hang a person's very salvation upon the acceptance of the doctrine yet if we are honest ourselves, we really aren't sure exactly why

It's the topic we won't talk about no one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a heretic Yet we have all sorts of questions about it and we aren't sure who we can ask

Many believers have asked questions of those they thought were more mature in the faith and have often been confused by the contradictory answers they received

Deciding it is best to remain confused rather than have one's orthodoxy questioned Many simply leave the topic for that mythical future day when

I have more time in the process We have lost out on a tremendous blessing

Where is the thing about fully Christian Well Actually, it says through 15

So maybe it was over on the next page, but that's a lot of Chopping it up.

Um, what what was what was my point? My point was that there are a lot of Christians Who do not get serious?

About their faith well Is nominalism a major problem amongst

Muslims you and I both know it is How many

Muslims do you know of? What percentage are? daily concerned

About honoring Tauheed Avoiding shirk how many truly invest themselves in?

Coming to the prayers prepared And in such a way as to honor

Allah how many really think about what they're doing? And there's going through the motions how many sleep through Fajr?

Especially during the summer look This book

I wrote for Christians to say to them God has revealed himself and we want to know who we worship

I was not saying that you have to have a perfect doctrine of the

Trinity to be saved Because I Probably don't have a perfect doctrine of the

Trinity in all ways There may have been things I haven't thought about or traditions or something along those lines that it is not doctrinal

Perfection that saves anybody. I do not believe you can be saved rejecting it

Knowing what it is of rejecting it because then you have to be rejecting certain elements of Scripture But what

I was saying was if you want to mature and grow in the Christian faith

Then you need to understand what God has revealed about himself That is not contradiction to the next quote you're gonna give now

I don't use the terms in the same way as the next quote Because he says anyone who tries to understand the

Trinity. I think what he means by is comprehend it. I Comprehend infinity or eternity our minds can't do it.

You start getting confused you start getting lost Because you you cannot imagine that kind of of infinite time or lack of time, but you tried to create a contradiction where I really don't think one exists and In the process,

I really don't think you were following what I was saying there Though it came up more than once in in the debate and Hopefully now you understand what

I was talking about especially as we look at the quote a little bit more carefully One of them for example,

Harlott Lindsell in his booklet a handbook for of Christian truth He said the mind of a man cannot fully understand that mystery the mystery of the

Trinity he who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind and But who he who would deny the

Trinity will lose his soul I think very clearly there he's using understand in the sense of a comprehensive understanding of the infinity of God the eternality of God exactly how the

Father Son and Spirit relate to one another so on so things that are beyond our

Comprehension because of our limitedness that's not the same thing as understanding Within the one being that is

God There eternally exists three co -equal and co -eternal persons the Father Son and the

Holy Spirit That's fully understandable Now, can

I comprehend the uniqueness of God's being the uniqueness of God's experience?

No But I can understand when he's revealed himself that way And hopefully you can see what the difference between those is

Oh Again, the question to Lincoln. Do you do you agree with the first quotes of James White that you must understand?

The concept in order for you to be fully Christian or if you try to understand it, you will lose your mind

I believe that my my dear friend is is sane He didn't lose his mind

Therefore he will come here on the stage and explain the Trinity in simple terms that every little boy including my son would get it

Let the Bible speak the Bible in the Old Testament. We have one verse which considered to be the cornerstone of Judaism and That is

Deuteronomy 6 4 which read Shema Israel Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad Hero Israel the

Lord our God the Lord is one My question again to Lincoln if I handed this verse to any person

Religious or otherwise and I asked him to explain to me what it means Will he get it will he get from reading this verse that God is actually more than one

Now well, that's that's not a fair argument We're not saying that the

Doctrine of the Trinity is revealed in one verse as I said, the

Doctrine of Trinity is revealed in the Incarnation and the outpouring of the Spirit which comes about 1 ,400 years later

So you're arguing against something. We're not saying what

I am saying is when you look at the centrality of the Shema and Then you see how that has worked out in history you find that the followers of Jesus the earliest followers of Jesus understand that Shema in the way that Paul presents it in 1st

Corinthians chapter 8 and Maybe we'll have to take a look at that but if you want to see a

Presentation on that may I suggest the debate that I did with Shabir Ali at the University of Pretoria in South African 2013 on did the earliest

Christians believe in the deity of Christ because I went through what I call the Christian Shema at 1st

Corinthians 8 and as you were a student of Hebrew, I gave the Hebrew and then you can follow that into the

Greek Septuagint and then into 1st Corinthians chapter 8 and see where the Apostle is specifically and purposely drawing from that Old Testament language to make his what seems to be a

Confession of faith the early Christians probably existed before Paul wrote the letter to the

Corinthians. He was drawing upon something that they already knew and so No one is arguing no

Christian is arguing That if you read the Shema you're gonna believe in Trinitarianism But we are saying is the

Shema is not the last thing God said I mean Obviously Lincoln if you believe

What Hebrews chapter 1 says you wouldn't be looking for a prophet after Jesus Wouldn't be looking for Muhammad.

In fact, you would have a hard time in these last days The former days he spoke by prophets and Apostles in These last days he's spoken by his son.

That's what Hebrews 1 says Sort of closes the door on there being a prophet after him that would somehow need to be followed

I Think that's that's relevant Will anyone understand this verse to mean that God is actually more than one person?

No, because the verse states very plainly the Lord our God and notice what you said there one person

See how you keep assuming Unitarianism rather than proving it Why can't if God because look here, let me let me do two things we're about out of time and I apologize, but I hope you don't mind

We'll continue this. Well, we'll we'll keep looking at this of course, this will make three different series is that I'm running at the same time and I know

I know I well, it's just part of the nature of things but Let me let me do this.

Let me look at Deuteronomy 6 for with you for a second And then

I want to skip to one other text if you get out of here at 10 after you're gonna die You're okay.

All right. I didn't know if you had anybody to pick up or anything. I Want to skip to I want to mark where we are here.

Where are we? We're 20 minutes and 10 seconds in 2010 start.

Okay, so I won't lose that. I Want to look quickly at Deuteronomy 6 for and then

I want to look at what you said about something else That I think is very very important Accordance You should have my screen now.

You got it. Good Deuteronomy 6 for Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh Echad You are a student in biblical

Hebrew Eloheinu right here, right? All right. So Yahweh Eloheinu our

El our Elohim our God Yahweh Echad So in the immediate context, what would the

Echad be referring to Except the class of being defined by Eloheinu Yahweh is our

God. There is only one God Yahweh. We believe that That does not address

Whether that being of God could be exhausted By a singular person

And I would suggest to you I would I would argue if you look at Deuteronomy 18 and 19 You go all the way back there

That there's actually Indication it's prophetic indication. It's not fulfillment language.

It's prophetic in language When Yahweh Rain fire and brimstone from Yahweh in heaven upon Sodom.

That's the Yahweh that visited Abraham walked with Abraham by the

Oaks of Mamre That Yahweh rains fire and brimstone upon Yahweh upon Sodom and Gomorrah from Yahweh in heaven

How do you deal with that? How you deal with that? Think about it. I think you're misusing

Deuteronomy 6 -4 there, but I Wanted to go to this one audience question. I'm gonna jump to it today because I wanted to get to this

We'll go back to it. We'll go back to where we were Ah 1 37 16 if you've got the this is as close as I can get

But to us a child is born to us a son is given and the government will be on the shoulders

And he will be called wonderful counselor mighty God everlasting father prince of peace

Brother, I am from this verse is quoted that Jesus is

God. How can you deny this fact? I Don't know what to say.

I Would again say that you guys are adding troubles to more more to your troubles to your existing problems

Again, let us read the verse. Can you please brother Lee help me read the verse again unto us?

He will be on his shoulders. He will be called once wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace.

Where does the name of Jesus mention? Because the question started like this.

Jesus is mentioned many times in the Old Testament Now I asked that purposely.

I Asked Lee purposely to read it again so that we can focus a bit and see where does

Jesus mention in the Old Testament? Not only that the verse states that this son will be called.

I want you to focus on the word now No, just very very quickly. I just just very very quickly The name

Jesus isn't in the Old Testament. We're not saying it's in the Old Testament But I've never understood this confusion on the part of Muslims First of all, do you believe that Muhammad is prophesied in Deuteronomy 18?

That Mahmoud EAM in the Song of Solomon 516 is a prophecy of Muhammad Do you believe that Muhammad is the para clay toss?

of John 14 and 16 If you do

Then are using the same standard in regards to prophecies about Jesus Secondly The name

Jesus doesn't appear in the Old Testament No one claims that it does in that sense just as as and Jesus will come

I mean the Book of Mormon does that but that's one of its anachronisms. So that's not an argument the

Quran identifies Jesus as Messiah, yes the

Messiah How did the Jews how are the Jews supposed to know Jesus was a Messiah? Well, they were supposed to know

Jesus was Messiah because of fulfilled prophecy which ones If Jesus names never mentioned the

Old Testament, how could there be any prophecies about him? So how could the Jews be held accountable? Recognize the

Messiah if they wouldn't be able to recognize the Messiah because the name of the Messiah wasn't given in the Old Testament It's unreasonable.

Well, um Very clearly and see here's one of the problems Well, I do not believe that the author of the

Quran had any firsthand knowledge of the content of the Bible itself was ignorant of it and This creates this problem

They'll talk about the Messiah but Who can develop any meaningful theology of the

Messiah from the Quran you can't? The author of the Quran didn't understand what Mashiach meant

He was operating on oral traditions and a lot of false ones too,

I mean a lot of stuff that ends up with the Quran Of clay birds and stuff from Gnostic Gospels not much in a way of discernment of sources but How would the

Jews have known who the Messiah was if there's not prophecies about the Messiah? There are prophecies about the

Messiah now I want you to look at it's Isaiah 9 5 in the Hebrew text take a look at it We're about to look at it as you complete your statement here.

I'm very particular when it comes to terminologies I'm using your own words, which are found in the

Bible. It says what he will be called wonderful counselor mighty God Everlasting father prince of peace.

I will repeat again. Jesus will be called Mighty God wonderful counselor everlasting father

Everlasting Jesus will be called everlasting father, but earlier in the Trinity's definition We say what the son is not the father.

The father is not the son Now he's called everlasting father So this is the problem The problem is show me one ayah one verse in the

Bible in the entire New Testament where Jesus is really called wonderful counselor mighty

God everlasting father and Prince of Peace show me these Definition for show me these quotations from your

New Testament that Jesus was called with these four names. I'm ready to get baptized now Catch that You said it way.

Oh You said it I'm ready to get baptized right now

Well, it would be my honor When I come to Hong Kong to to do that, it'd be wonderful Well, but let's look at Isaiah 9 6

It seems fitting to look at this text 9 5 in the Hebrew at this time of year for Christians Yes, it's sort of a fitting way to wrap up the program today

Because this is one of my favorite texts for this time of year And so I hope this will be useful to you and I hope it'll be useful to the rest of the audience as well

Notice what it says Key yellid you lad la new a

That's the exact same root in Hebrew as in Arabic in fact As you know, that's the exact same root that is found in lem yellid while in Yulid in Surah Taliq loss the third ayah he beget if not nor is he begotten a

Child will be born to us Natural normal language of birth and Jesus was born.

He didn't just beam into the world He was born Of a virgin his conception was supernatural

But his birth was the birth of a baby child and all of the

Traditions that have grown up little baby Jesus no crying he makes baloney, of course, he cried every baby cries has to a

Child will be born to us, but then notice what you know what the next you didn't you didn't talk about this

Ben Nathan Land of a child a son a child's born to us a son a

Ben Nathan what does Nathan mean? You know

Nathan the Prophet? Nathan Given not born

Do you think there might be something significant? about son here Now, I know that y 'all don't believe that Jesus used the term son of God of himself

Even though the Gospels certainly show him doing that but It is interesting

That you have a child being born but a son being given and that says the government

Will be upon his shoulders. Who is this? Well, do you agree with?

Jamal Badawi Who says this is about Muhammad? Now it's interesting when he goes through the list of verses he list of descriptions he skips

Al Gabor just skipped it like it wasn't even there Because he couldn't find a way of applying that to Muhammad But he does say that Muhammad actually fulfills us listen to his series that he did years ago up in Canada And he actually applies

Isaiah 9 6 to Muhammad the government will be upon his shoulders

We believe that Jesus is the king of the kingdom of heaven Every Christian If they're they've read their

New Testament Believes that they are subject to the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. So the government's my shoulders.

There's fulfillment so the government will rest on his shoulders and then you have

You come up now you want to take you come up? in a

Absolutely literalistic way to where the exact language has to be used That would not work to fulfill anything about Muhammad would it so are you using equal scales?

Fair balances same argument. He shall be called

His name will be called Pele Yo eights

Pele yo eights wonderful counselor it could be wonderful and counselor as separate terms or Descriptively either one as you know would be possible.

Is there anything in the New Testament that Would correspond to that, of course

Read Colossians 1 & 2 in Him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

What are you asking of a counselor? But to have wisdom and knowledge all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge found in him in the

Gospels The people are astounded because he teaches them as one who has authority Not as their scribes for anyone around them one of a counselor al

Gabor Jesus was identified as God by his disciples.

He used the very name of God Remember when you said that we don't tell people

That one of the names of God in the Old Testament is a God Well Then you need to tell people that one of the names of God in the

Old Testament is on a who? on a who Isaiah 43 10 other places like it and on a who in Hebrew comes into the

Greek as Ego, I me and in John 8 24 8 58 13 19 18 5 through 6

Jesus uses ego I me of Himself in Context clearly indicating his deity so much so that when he said it to the

Roman soldiers who had come to arrest him They fell back upon the ground

And he said in John 8 24 unless you believe that ego I me you will die in your sins and John 13 19 he applied the words of Yahweh to himself in the prediction of future events as Demonstration of who he actually was he's called

God Thomas after his resurrection Answered and said to him not to two different people to him singular.

I'll tow My Cody Asimov, I have a asthma my lord and my god can't you cannot cut those apart

Identify him as God. He's called God in Titus 2 13 2nd

Peter 1 1 El Gabor which by the way is then used in the very next chapter

Isaiah 10 21 of Yahweh himself So it's not some lesser deity then

Again Addressed it the very objection you made addressed it in the section on oneness

Look at look at the Hebrew. Well, look at the Hebrew notice. It's a singular phrase aviat

Aviat now, it's normally translated as eternal father.

But as you're looking at it, you can see Aviat it's its father of eternity Now what is what is of in the

Old Testament when applied to God? We have one maker one father

When fatherhood is talked about of Yahweh in the Old Testament, it's in reference to creation to him making or forming things and So this isn't identifying

Jesus as the father because father son Holy Spirit our New Testament revelations You're you're you're reading it'd be like reading the

Of Meccan surahs in a Medinan context, that's what you're doing

If you start reading the reality of Muhammad's experience in Medina into the

Meccan surahs You'd be making the exact same mistake That you're making here.

Is there anything in the New Testament though that would correspond to this you better believe it

That same book of Colossians is a really good example. Well gospel of John All things are made by him without he was anything made that was made book of Hebrews By him all things are made

But how about that incredible text in Colossians chapter 1? We're by him where all things made were that heaven or visible invisible

Principalities powers to means authorities all things created by him before he is before all things in him all things hold together.

That's the Aviat There's the Aviat Sar Shalom, Sar Shalom, Sar Shalom Beautiful word

Salaam Shalom How do we have

Shalom? Well, the Christian says that we are at enmity with God That sin has separated us from God has made us rebels and that we do not have the capacity within ourselves

To change that rebel heart to take out that heart of stone and give ourselves a heart of flesh Peace has been provided to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the cross of Calvary So that as Romans 5 one says therefore having been justified by faith

We have peace with God through our Lord. Jesus Christ. He is the prince of peace He is the one who gives us peace.

He is the only source that can provide us with peace So I want you to think about something well

You know None of that is relevant to Muhammad Who is it relevant to Who is it relevant

Those words were written 700 years before the birth of Christ and isaiah 9 and I don't know if you'd have time to do this, but If you directed me

To a talk you had given that I could get hold of I'd go listen to it So if you go to sermon audio .com

Look up the phoenix reformed baptist church You'll find a sermon

I preached about two months ago on Emmanuel And what

I did is I went from isaiah chapter 7 all the way through chapter 11 and I Demonstrated that this text this section of isaiah is drawn from By numerous new testament writers in amazing context and this is right in the middle of that It's right in the middle of that Isaiah 7 isaiah 8

Isaiah 10 isaiah 11 They all have texts that are drawn by the new testament authors applied to jesus

And to the christian experience in the new testament So I ask you who is this about?

I just gave you what I think are clearly clearly Appropriate fulfillments

In the descriptions functions and actions of jesus that are much clearer than anything you can come up with for muhammad fulfilling surah 7 17

And allegedly being in our scriptures And I only touched upon a few a few possibilities

So like I said, I think you were channeling your inner akhmadid out there I'll be ready to be baptized.

I don't I don't think so, but I would like you to think about what it might mean

That these words were written 700 years before jesus and if they're true, how was jesus el gabor

How was he aviat There's no one else that could be applied to no one else that could be applied to but they do fit jesus

So while we will continue responding to your opening And to your rebuttal periods

I hope once again the review has been fair so far And educational for you and for everybody else who's been watching and listening

But while at this time of year when Serious christians are

Celebrating the most amazing event of all of human history when

God demonstrated his own love in that condescension

Of entering into his own creation In the person of his son the person of jesus christ we're celebrating that And I'll be absolutely honest with you

Just like lincoln No matter what we ever get to do in the future. No matter what we sit around and talk about at dinner

It's all going to come back to fundamentally Who we believe god is and for a christian what he's done in jesus christ and that jesus

Recognizing who he was is not going into excess It's accepting what he and his earliest followers believed

And taught and died for and that's what I want you to know too.

That will always be my prayer for you Is for your your safety your happiness

But none of that can compare To coming to know the true living lord jesus christ who according to the scriptures

Gives you every breath of your mouth every beat of your heart It's all a gift from his hand

He's not a mere puzzle He's your creator he's your maker

We'll continue with that demonstration. I hope this has been helpful to everyone who has watched today And we will be back next week,

I think Probably tuesday wednesday, right tuesday wednesday next week And we'll continue all of our series somehow don't ask me how but we'll get to it.