Atonement Debate, Heresies of The Church of Christ & Hyper-Preterism!

The Apologetic Dog

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The bracket that's going on right now, if you're listening to this today, the day it came out, which is Wednesday, the 12th, we will be in our third day of bracket.

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We started the 10th, 11th, 12th, and we've got over 128 entries, podcasts in there, and they're dueling every single day for a, who will be the best reformed podcast of 2025, this is our third year that we've done it and it keeps growing every year.

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We started with 32, then we went to 64, this year we're at 128 and the prize packs keep growing.

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I mean, I've got a $500 rebound confessions and creed

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ESV Bible from Rockwell Bibles we're giving away to the winner. We've got a squirrely

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Joe coffee that someone's going to win with a coffee pack with camping mugs and everything.

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I've got a year or I've got a month of professional editing for free from vindicated vindicated productions.

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Uh, that's Parker Brown watch. Well, podcasts love him over there. Thanks for donating that. I've got a eschatology book pack that we're going to be giving away for participants, um, from, from, uh,

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Brandon wood over at eschatology matters. Uh, I've got a cigar pack from patriarch cigars that just hopped on board.

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He's given away some cigars to some guys. I mean, it's a fun time. Go check us out at, uh, real

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DMW podcast on X and you can take part in that voting and who you vote for every single day from February 10th to February 21st is going to help propel the winner.

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And it's haunted cosmos who is defending their title. They won it last year against 64, but now we've opened it up to 128 podcasts, lots of good podcasts on there.

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If you go look at that list, that's pinned on real DMW podcast on Twitter X.

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You will see the list. You can click on it, look it up. And I bet you, you've listened to some of those podcasts. You even know some of those guys personally go vote for them.

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Um, every day, February 10th or 21st, but that's my little, uh, promo for the bracket, because by the time

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I record my next episode, which will be the 19th. Oh no, we'll still be in that.

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It's a 10 day. Yeah. So I'll be talking about it on the next episode a little bit too. But anyway, this week we had Jeremiah and or Tehran.

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We talked a little theology. Uh, we talked a little, uh, what do cults have in common?

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We talked a little bracket. Um, it was a good little 40 minute episode and I just,

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I really love Jeremiah. Uh, met him down in Tullahoma last year. We've become fast friends. Love what he's doing over on a apologetic dog on his

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YouTube channel and podcast. And it's always good to have him on because he's a guy that, um, about two hours ago,

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I reached out and said, Hey, can you be on the podcast today? And he comes on, he's prepared. He's knowledgeable and he's just an awesome brother in the

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Lord. So the next voices you'll be hearing is me and Jeremiah nor tear. Here we go. Yeah.

02:55

So Jeremiah, man, welcome back to the podcast. A great to have you on again, brother. Thanks for having me, Greg. It's been a while for sure.

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Yeah, I think almost a year now. And, um, you've been, you've been getting it, man. You've been out there. Apologetic dog, of course, uh, probably one of the best

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YouTube channel names on the internet. Um, uh, I know we'll be speaking about this later, but when

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I added you to our yearly, uh, best reform podcast bracket, I had like three or four people tag me and go,

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Oh heck yeah, we want to see him on there. We were hoping he was on last year. So you're in that bracket, but more importantly than, uh, than a dumb old bracket that I hold once a year, you are doing a debate with James White, like a two

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V two, which I always loved those, they, they add so much depth on, uh, whom did

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Christ die for? Can you give us the, just a pop, give us the info. Where it's at, when, how people can watch, see, attend all that stuff.

03:46

Absolutely. Well, we're hosting this two on two debate live and in person. It will be also live streamed at my

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YouTube channel, the apologetic dog. But, um, this will be hosted at the church.

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I pastor at called 12 five church in Jonesboro, Arkansas. And so I just want to encourage people if they're in the

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Northeast Arkansas area, um, we have plenty of seating, comfortable seating, probably up to 170 or so.

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And so when you, when people go click the link, um, I also list that we have an overflow room just in case we were to really bring in a lot of people.

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Uh, but we're excited because we'll be able to host this event and Dr. White's excited about coming to 12 five.

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He's no stranger. Um, he has taught at 12 five now multiple times. We're a church plan of four years old.

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And so, um, like I said, we're, we're hosting not just one debate, but two debates.

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So the Friday night will be the two V two with me and Dr. White, and then the next night, Saturday, uh,

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March 1st will be a one V one debate between Dr. White and Joe Hesh Meyer from Catholic answers, and they will be debating on the mass and is it a propitiatory, uh, sacrifice and atonement.

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So, uh, and then the Sunday, Dr. White will be preaching at 12 five church, and he'll be talking about the sacrifice of Christ and kind of continuing that theme.

05:08

Oh, man. So good. So, um, the two V twos are always, uh, fun for me.

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Like I said, they add a little more depth who you guys, uh, who's on the other side of the argument. We're going to get into what position you guys are each taken, but who are you debating against?

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Do you, do you remember? I'll talk. Yes. Uh, Dr. Joshua Ferris, I believe he is

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Anglican and aligns heavily with Eastern Orthodox, uh, theology. And so his debate partner will be

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Dan Chapa, who is a classic Armenian. So it's funny how those two came together because there's a little,

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I would say there's a little bit of overlap between the two. And so, um,

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Greg, this took me a while to kind of orchestrate because kind of a little bit of backstory, I was listening to Dr.

05:53

White on the dividing line. And after the elections were over, he's kind of like,

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Hey, I'm booking my, my 2025, uh, don't really have anything on the docket yet. I remember

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I paused my headset, walked directly over to my email and sent Dr. White a message saying,

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Hey, I would love to assist you on your quest for 200 debates. And I just taught him on his way to, um, you know, where he's professor, adjunct professor in Conway at Grace Bible Theological Seminary.

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I said, Hey, on the way there, or on the way back, swing by, uh, 12, five, we'd love to host some debates.

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And he emailed me back really quickly and said, Hey, how soon can we do this? And then, uh,

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Greg, this is what's really cool. He invited him. He said, can we do two debates? And he says, would you like to be my debate partner on one?

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And I laid an egg cause I couldn't believe it. I was in shock. And then of course

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I played it off. Cool. Like, oh yeah, that'd be no big deal. That in the debate world, just so people know that's like Michael Jordan asking if you want to play a pick pickup game with him and you're on his team.

06:56

Right. Yeah. Y 'all, uh, Dr. White is king of the Hill. You know, he's been doing debates for years and, you know, we love guys like Greg Bonson, uh, who had a very niche, um, you know, in epistemology and debating against atheists and, you know, he's done a few interactions, but James White, he has such a wide range of debate topics in contending for the faith, whether it be against Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, atheist in -house debates amongst brothers, you know, defending the doctrines of grace.

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I mean, when people Google debates, I mean, you're going to see a William Lane Craig, but James White has so much more of a long resume of what he is.

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Um, you know, Islam, you know, so many years, I think international debates too. I mean, he goes everywhere.

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Yeah. And it's, it's around 40 years, I think. So yeah, to your point about Michael Jordan, I think, uh,

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Dr. White is, is definitely the one that people think of when they think of Christian debate. Sure.

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So when we're talking about whom did Christ die for, what position will you two be taking and what position do you think your opponents will be taking?

08:01

Yeah. So when we're talking about the extended atonement, um, usually this kind of boils down to one of two categories.

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Now there's very nuanced positions with them, but you either take an unlimited atonement view, like Armenians would, or you're going to be of the

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Calvinist kind of a limited atonement. And so obviously Dr. White and I, um, we're going to be taking the, the true, truly reformed stance that Christ died, uh, for all those whom the father gave him.

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So it's a very particular atonement, uh, for a particular people that experienced the mercy and grace of God.

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So that's what it's really going to be centered around. Our interlocutors will be pushing for an unlimited atonement that Christ died essentially equally for all people.

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And so we're going to challenge that with Christ being the mediator of a better covenant, um, who is a better, uh, uh,

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Christ, a better prophet, priest, and King, and it's going to be in harmony with, um, uh, the

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Trinity being a, and then the, the Trinitarian gospel for sure. You know, what really opened my eyes to this was a

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James White quote that I heard off the cuff probably almost 20 years ago now, where he looked at an

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Arminian and he said, you know, Arminians and reformed both believe in unlimited atonement, one believes in unlimited power with limited scope.

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The other one believes in unlimited scope with limited power. And we just believe that Christ atonement is unlimited in its power.

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And it did exactly what the Bible says it was supposed to do. And when he said that, and I was wrestling with the doctrines of grace in my twenties, it really just started opening up.

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Oh, it really is a simple way to explain it. You, you believe it's unlimited, but just your, your, the unlimited part is, is the, what the effectiveness of the atonement from that perspective.

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And I thought that was a really good way to kind of, you know, it might not be the best wording, but it kind of uses that wording against them to where you should have seen the guy he was talking to kind of sat there and thought about it for a few minutes and didn't really have a reply for it.

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And I've said that quite a few times to some people and it really opens up their eyes and going, yeah, you, you can profess, oh, limited atonement, the, the, the evil

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L a, you know, words and you go, but you believe in a type of limited atonement.

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It doesn't have full effectiveness. Someone has to receive it and believe it. And there's work on our end to receive the atonement for it to be effective.

10:25

Um, do you think some of that type of argumentation, uh, might creep into the debate, do you think, or where are you guys going to be focusing on?

10:32

Oh, yeah. Um, like your point, everyone limits the atonement. It's just like you said, is it in the efficacy?

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Is it in the sufficiency? And if, if the, if, if everyone sins are truly atoned for and it is procured at the cross, well, then you have universalism, universal, like, yeah.

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And so that's where we're going to be getting into is I think a holistic picture. Here's some of my thoughts.

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I've been reading, uh, Dr. Ferris's, uh, papers on the atonement and I don't mind to tell people he denies penal substitution atonement.

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And so I, I really think we will be pressing in on some consistency there. Can you, can you have a kind of substitution that doesn't also absorb the wrath of God in legal forensic terms without also talking about the people of whom

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Christ died for? So we'll be pressing Dr. Ferris a little bit on that consistency. I know Dan Chapa, who affirms penal substitutionary atonement, um, we'll be probably analyzing many proof texts, uh, with, uh,

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Dan Chapa, which is great to me, you got to be able to do both. You got to be able to think holistically, right. And how this relates to the life of the

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Christian and the atoning work of Christ. Um, but you gotta be able to, and this is Dr. White strong.

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So you gotta be able to walk through a text and exegete it consistently. And so, yeah, uh, we'll be getting into, you know, who truly limits the, um, the atonement and who can be consistent in light of our

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God being triune as he accomplishes the salvation for his people. Sounds like there might be a little conquer and divide going on over there as we find the schisms between the two of them.

12:11

Uh, but you know, so I don't want to put you on the spot for those listening. We scheduled this about 45 minutes ago.

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We didn't go over anything we're going to talk about. So I am going to put you in the spot and say, for those listening, do you think you could give a brief overview of the different views of atonement?

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I know you just used penal substitution. I know, uh, you know what that is and I know what that is, but maybe for new listeners or people going, what is he talking about?

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Because I remember my twenties, you know, I grew up in a, in a church that had certain traditions and didn't teach anything outside of that.

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And when I started viewing the doctrines of grace and wait a minute, there's different thoughts on what the atonement did and the effectiveness.

12:46

Um, you know, could, could you kind of explain, I guess, uh, the different views on atonement?

12:53

Yeah, perhaps there's a wide variety and nuances to each one, but, uh, three kind of come to mind and I'll start with the one that I think is the most absurd that you, you see in church history, but it's called the ransom theory.

13:06

Um, we start seeing that Jesus is a ransom. The question is a ransom to who? And so the ransom theory kind of says, well,

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Jesus is a ransom to Satan. And I was, most people kind of can see through that and like, no, even though Satan is the enemy of God, uh,

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Jesus is not a sub sovereign King that is subservient to, uh, to Satan and trying really hard to thwart evil.

13:29

Um, but, but that's called ransom theory is that Christ's work on the cross and his work is to, um, basically try to conquer

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Satan. And it's one of those like up in the air, don't know if he can actually accomplish it or not.

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And some people may say that's an over oversimplification, but no, it's Jesus is not ransoming a people of God from Satan per se, and as we're going to see how there is spiritual warfare in the midst of, uh,

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Christ rescuing his people. But that's not who primarily Christ is accomplishing, um, his work on the cross for.

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And so that's the ransom theory. Just try to get that out of the way. Number two, uh, which has some truth to it.

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Um, and I will say, uh, this, this has been heavily seen throughout church history, but it's called the, um, the

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Christus victor view of the atonement and it's Christ, uh, victory going to Calvary.

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And this is true. Um, I just tell people you don't want to limit it. You don't want to limit this to, um, the exclusion of the third view that we're going to get into is the, the penal substitutionary, uh, view of Christ.

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Uh, but the Christus victor view just kind of sees Christ as a victorious King, um, who willingly laid down his life and conquered the grave in his resurrection.

14:44

And to me, there's a, there's a lot of beauty to that, but not to the exclusion of what is the scripture also speaks about is that there is a kind of substitution, uh, of atonement going on.

14:57

Christ is dying on the behalf of sinners. And so as we're moving to number three, um, this is, this is kind of the core of the gospel.

15:07

And so when we see PCA, uh, penal substitutionary atonement, this is the core of what

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Dr. White and I are trying to be consistent with. Is Christ bore the penalty of the wrath that we were owed, right?

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Because when you sin against God, he is holy, righteous, and good. So he will pour out his wrath against law breakers.

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And a lot of people take issue with the penal part that there's this some type of, of wrath that God is pouring out.

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And so like those that deny penal substitutionary atonement, they see God as almost a, um, there's almost cosmic abuse against the father and the son.

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That's, that's not compatible with God who is loving. And we say, look, there is an eternal relationship between the father and the son, um, but it's triunits.

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It's eternally in the context of the Holy Spirit. And this is a part of the council before the foundation of the world.

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So there's a mutual loving agreement about how the son is going to glorify the father in real time.

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He's going to do that by purchasing a ransom for the father. So the ransom is not in accordance to Satan, but Jesus is paying the ransom for the father.

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And so it must be judicial. It must be penal because God is holy, righteous, and good.

16:26

It's a part of his justice. And so maybe I can pause there. Um, if you have any thoughts before we continue talking.

16:33

Well, the first thought I have is, um, you know, maybe I'll just get your opinion on this is anytime I watch, uh, a progressive

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Christian or someone who says they have deconstructed or someone that says I'm rethinking, uh, to just traditional

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Christianity. When I dig down in there more, more times or not, what I see is a hatred for penal substitution.

16:54

They really hate that doctrine or that thought. Why do you think that is? Do you think that is because it does put us in right position to God of sinners and depraved or that's my sneaking suspicion is because it's tough to go.

17:07

Like you said, Oh God, God is love. And they've redefined love just to mean, you know, rainbows and butterflies. But that's always seems to be the root of it is really coming down to that type of atonement.

17:16

And penal substitution has, has really turned off, um, a lot of progressive and deconstructed

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Christians. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's, it's that it's the whole, I don't know if you remember who Rob bell is and what he wrote called, um, a racing hill essentially.

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And yeah, his whole underlying premise is a God of love would not send people rightly to hell.

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And this is where you have to let the totality of, of scripture speak to how God is love, but it's a holy love.

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And so what does a holy loving God do in the presence of sin? Well, he's just, he's going to punish law breakers.

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And so for us to have atonement, for us to be reconciled with God, uh, we have to have someone pay our debt on our behalf.

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Our debt is our transgression against God. So I think you're right. People want to take away, uh, the penal part of, uh, penal substitutionary atonement, because it's a way to get around the injustice that we have done against, um, our, our holy creator.

18:26

And so of course, when Jesus pays our punishment, he is taking on the wrath that is due to us.

18:33

That's why this is a central issue of the gospel itself. Just a very,

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I mean, it's an old cliche analogy and maybe not a very good one, but I've, I've always thought of, you know, if you have a parent that never disciplines a child and goes, well, they just love them and give them no boundaries and allow them to go on, uh, their, their own sinful way as another adult, you don't really despise the child.

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You start to despise the parent and you go, what kind of parent was that? That didn't show love to their children through correction and boundaries and discipline and all those things.

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And of course we know the Bible says God loves those who he disciplines, he loves and vice versa. Uh, but that's the problem too, is that we've redefined what love is, right?

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Like we go, oh, we're, we're not that sinful. We're pretty good. I mean, I see so many Christians now that, that are moving away from original sin and depravity and going, well, we're, we're all inherently good.

19:28

Uh, you know, and, and we're, God created us and he loves us. And this is very soft, kind of, uh, and kind of how

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I believed for a little bit in my teens until the Lord, um, you know, kicked me onto my butt, took everything away from me, put me through a

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Job situation for about three years and, uh, realized, oh, I am nothing without Christ, Christ alone, you know, and you really start to realize who

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I am in comparison to God, which I think makes the atonement all that much more precious, especially from the point you guys are arguing for is whom did

20:00

Christ die for exactly who the father gave him and from his hand, he won't pluck and right alongside that assurance of salvation and the sovereignty of God, all those things intertwined.

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You know, I was at a small group Sunday night in my church, um, every week, Sunday night, and I just said,

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I don't know how people can get through life without assurance of salvation and the sovereignty of God, you know?

20:23

Um, Charles Spurgeon, one of my favorite quotes, the sovereignty, the sovereignty of God is the soft pillow on which

20:29

I lay my head in times of trouble. I mean, worded so perfectly. Right. And I think all these things kind of wrap together. I know

20:34

I'm getting off subject there with whom did Christ die for, but, but I think that's your inner reform Baptist coming out a little bit, warring against my inner reform

20:43

Presbyterian. Yeah. Uh, no, I love me some Spurgeon. Come on, man. Uh, when I dove into Spurgeon in my twenties, it was like, where has this guy been my entire life?

20:52

Right. I mean, just the quotes alone, how he, I mean, he was, he was a, a far better.

20:59

And before CS Lewis with being able to take huge points, pack them into a paragraph, and then from there outgrowth of study for two days on one quote, you know, uh, obviously we're never replacing the word of God, but the wisdom in, in some of how he would say things was unbelievable.

21:16

But my, my whole point was, um, you know, some people look at these debates and this is why I love these debates, especially with you doing them with James White, uh, you know, and you've debated in your own right, and let's talk about that for a minute too.

21:27

But people go, whom did Christ die for? Why is that important? Well, it's one of the tenants of our faith, the tent poles that hold up just about everything else.

21:35

Uh, and, and so I see it as very important. Um, uh, you doing these types of debates and then so fun that you're doing with James White, who's been in the game, but tell me a little bit for the listeners too,

21:45

I know we talked about a little bit last year when you were on, but it's been a year, um, are you still getting out there and debating and doing that thing?

21:51

How are things going with apologetic dog, which is a phenomenal YouTube video. If you guys are listening or watching or channel, excuse me, go over to and search apologetic dog.

22:00

Go follow and subscribe there. Tell me what's been going on in the last year. A lot actually.

22:06

Um, so yeah, I'm trying to think since the course of a year, um, I've engaged at least in two debates that no,

22:14

I think it has been three since the last time I've been on. And so one big emphasis in my ministry is evangelizing the church of Christ.

22:23

And so I believe I've done two church of Christ debates since then. And, um, maybe it was three actually.

22:30

It's so funny because, uh, we got to see each other at the conference in Tullahoma last year.

22:35

And so I'm trying to think I was able to debate Mike Hysall on baptism.

22:41

And the big question is, is that the moment where a person is justified after their faith has worked a particular action in baptism.

22:49

And I believe, you know, we have to be sensitive to the law, uh, gospel distinction, and if it's your participation and your obedience and your works that caused you to be made right with God, that's no longer of grace.

23:02

That's why I heavily contend against this race restorationist movement with the church of Christ going all the way back to Alexander Campbell in the early 1800s, uh, just saying,

23:11

Hey, they did not restore the gospel that was lost for, for so many, uh, hundreds over a thousand years.

23:18

Uh, but, but Christ has continually been building his church. Like he said, he would. And so my ministry, um,

23:25

Greg, it's almost like, uh, it's a, it's a calling of Nineveh, right? Remember Job didn't want to go to Nineveh, but that's where God was calling him.

23:32

That's kind of how, that's kind of how I see the church of Christ is there. My name, God has called me to, um, equip the saints for how to contend with this cult like group.

23:41

And that's a harsh word. But when you, uh, when you embrace destructive heresies that deviate from the gospel of grace, well then, um, you're outside the fold.

23:51

And so that's what a lot of people will see at the apologetic dog is just a lot of content showing people how to engage with this particular group.

24:00

Uh, so that's kind of number one that you'll see at the apologetic dog. And so I got to debate my, I saw on baptism.

24:05

I did another two on two debate, uh, with me and the fishbone Trey Fisher who came out of the church of Christ, um, me and him do a lot of shared content.

24:13

So we, we did a debate. And then a couple of months ago, I debated a church of Christ on total depravity, because like you said a second ago, um, a lot of people think that we are born inherently good.

24:24

The church of Christ deny original sin. And so, um, got to engage with the church

24:29

Christ fellow. Um, it was very fiery and lively. People will get a kick out of that. Um, I tell people it wasn't the best of debate because none of my questions and arguments were ever addressed.

24:40

It was just somebody that wanted, yeah, well, it's frustrating, but Hey, uh, the gospel was proclaimed and so you just, you rejoice in that, but yeah, people can check out all those debates, um, at my channel and you'll know us another side.

24:54

Topic. I cover a lot of the apologetic dog is the, the issue. I'm going to go ahead and say heresy of hyper or full preterism.

25:03

And that is just something that sneaks up on people that they don't know what that's about, you know, in the world of eschatology.

25:10

And so in my local town, there's been some people embrace this. And so I've had people knocking on my door saying,

25:15

Jeremiah, what's wrong with it? And is it really dangerous? I'm like, Oh, it's like gangrene.

25:20

You got to cut it off before it begins to fester. So those are some things that people can find at my channel.

25:26

Well, heck, can you give us an overview of those two things really quick for those listening? So they, they know when they click on apologetic dogs.

25:32

So church of Christ, I had a, I had someone that I knew that was just a run of the mill evangelical non -denominational

25:38

Christian and was going to church of Christ and didn't even really know what they believed. So could you give us kind of maybe some of the points where you go, ah, that leaves orthodoxy, you know, restoration period, all that kind of stuff and where maybe a listener should be wary if they're looking at a church of Christ church in their community.

25:56

Yeah. I want to first kind of plug this book. The author is Ms. Leanne Ferguson. I've interviewed her on my channel on this book, but it's

26:04

Christ rescued me from the church of Christ. So she grew up in the church of Christ. She, she understands the doctrine and I didn't grow up in the church of Christ, but they're all in my front yard.

26:13

I just tell people in Jonesboro, Arkansas, where I live, there's a lot of church of Christ. And when I was a lot younger out in the community, sharing the gospel,

26:21

I would interact with church of Christ and realize that we use a lot of Christian ease, a lot of the same terminology, but we mean radically different things.

26:29

Okay. And so, and so another book plug, she wrote a second book called, uh, Christ rescued the thief's testimony.

26:35

This is about the thief on the cross and how he is the Achilles heel to the church of Christ. Uh, because the, the thief on the cross died in the new covenant without baptism proving that that's not necessary to be justified before God.

26:49

And I don't know if you can see this, Greg, can you see who wrote the forward? Oh, was that you? Your boy.

26:54

So, uh, it was awesome to kind of, uh, help in that. And so I've interviewed her on the second book.

27:00

Here's, here's some big, uh, red flags that I wouldn't want to tell people about the church of Christ is they believe in a five step formula of you have to hear the word.

27:09

And they usually have a five finger across. You've got to, you got to hear the word you have to, uh, believe now their understanding of belief is only mental ascent.

27:19

Okay. That's going to be key as we start talking about the gospel, but you must repent. Right. And for them, repentance is, uh, not only a change of heart and mind, but really an emphasis on the actions that it produces.

27:31

So you're already getting into, uh, works and you must confess with the mouth, which sounds biblical.

27:37

Absolutely. But they, they really mean you have to confess the right words that Jesus is the son of God.

27:44

And, um, and then lastly, you must be baptized with, with the interesting way that they emphasize that, but baptism for them is the key to contact the blood of Jesus, to have your past sin washed away.

27:57

And a hidden sixth step is you have to remain faithful in the church of Christ.

28:03

You can't just be baptized and, you know, Baptist church or Presbyterian church, but it has to be within a church with church

28:09

Christ on the doorpost. And you have to be faithful in your good works, um, in order to stay safe.

28:15

So the big caution to people is this is legalism. This is legalism to the core. When, when you hear people emphasize the word, obey, obey, obey, and not looking to Christ alone by faith alone, um, and ultimately denying self.

28:30

And so when you hear someone talk about the word obey in order to have your sins washed away, you already know that you're talking about something that is works based, which is self -righteousness and talking about earning favor with God.

28:45

And I want to say this, Greg, they will not, you know, cults. And like I said, I just want to, I really believe this is a cultic group, um, as defined by scripture.

28:54

When you deviate from the gospel of grace, um, they can't, they won't say that they are teaching a self -righteousness.

29:01

I'm saying that's the entailment of their position, but they redefine grace. They redefine faith into faithfulness.

29:07

And it's a, it's a emphasis on your obedience. So those would be some of the dangers.

29:13

And to continue this is when they say you must obey, they would say you are born the same way that Adam was created.

29:22

So it's, there's not a corruption from within, but it's an external influence from the corrupt world that we live in, which immediately contradicts what

29:31

Jesus said. It's not what goes into a man that defiles the man, uh, that stems from the heart from which all these evils come out.

29:38

Hmm. Not to mention the psalmist has something to say about that. And in the womb, I was created in iniquity, born with sin, you know?

29:45

Uh, yeah. So as most like cults do, uh, they, they love to redefine some of those major orthodox words.

29:54

That's what I found when you get into a group and you go, I've never heard it said that way. I didn't know that's what that word meant.

29:59

That's usually a red flag too. We've taken these words that have a definitional meaning over 2000 years, and then we change them.

30:06

Go ahead. Uh, the Church of Christ claimed to be the one true church, and that's usually a big red flag, especially according to, um,

30:14

Walter Martin, who wrote the kingdom of the cults. One of his definitional things to be on the lookout for is when any group like the watchtower with Jehovah's witnesses, any group that claims to be the arc of salvation, which the

30:27

Eastern Orthodox really push heavy, like there, there is no salvation outside the, the arc of Eastern Orthodoxy.

30:34

Those are the things you've got to be sensitive to because, uh, the true saints, the elect of God are the called out ones by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

30:43

And that transcends denominational barriers for those that are truly resting in Christ alone and embrace the gospel of grace.

30:52

Well, then that's, that's the true church of God. That's why me and you can have, you know, differences on secondary and tertiary doctrine, but we can high five as brothers in the faith.

31:03

So I just want to tell people, uh, be, be on guard for those groups like the Church of Christ that claim to be the one true church.

31:09

Yeah. And then secondarily, uh, let's talk about full preterism for a minute because, um, my experience with this, this was kind of funny.

31:18

I can't remember his name. I wish I could. I think his first name is Sean. He was an ex Mormon. He had a

31:23

YouTube channel. Okay. Started in like 2005 or six or seven early in YouTube, came out of Mormonism for the first couple of years on his channel, he's making great arguments.

31:33

He would take calls from Mormons and he would say, this is absolutely not biblical, but he was non -denominational.

31:38

And he was kind of floating around trying to find out, you know, five, six, seven years in, then he floats over to reform theology a little bit, plays around with that, doesn't like that, goes over to Baptist and Presbyterian checks, checks that out still all the time arguing against, um,

31:53

Mormonism. And then I see him accept full preterism and probably 2013. And then the last time

31:59

I checked in on his channel and I will probably once a year, I mean, he is gone. I mean, it's crazy how

32:06

I saw this full preterism theology, get a hold of him and say, it's all done. It's all completed.

32:12

We don't need to do anything else. The only thing we have to do is love our neighbor. And you go, well, that's awfully vague.

32:18

We can throw out all the rest of the laws, all the transcendent law, all the rest of the moral law. That's the only one Christ said.

32:24

And I mean, he is full blown. I mean, that might not be the majority of full preterism, but that's what that led him to.

32:30

And he preaches that now. So that's just one example of a semi public figure. I don't have a whole lot of experience,

32:36

I think, in personal relationships that someone who holds the full preterism, um, maybe the next closest person

32:43

I would know it would be Gary DeMar, uh, who four years ago was on the podcast and then, you know, the last couple of years hasn't really said anything, uh, publicly, but has really been going that way.

32:55

But for people who don't know what is full preterism and why should we be concerned with it? I know you've done a lot of stuff with Dr.

33:00

Sam Frost on this and you yourself have been out there, uh, talking about it and we're seeing an increase in it when people are surveyed.

33:07

Uh, you know, it was a minority, 5, 6, 7 % of people. Now we're seeing it jumped to 20, 22%.

33:13

That's a big jump over the last 10 years. Why do you think we haven't seen a resurgence in it? And what should we be concerned about in that doctrine?

33:19

A lot of great questions. Full preterism, hyper preterism, because we believe it's hyper outside the bounds of orthodoxy.

33:25

And therefore another cult -like group, uh, believes that all prophecy has been fulfilled at 70

33:31

AD with the destruction of the temple. And so when we say all prophecy, that would include the second coming of Christ, that would include the resurrection of the dead, and that would include the restoration of all things.

33:43

And you, people, usually what, what helps people out is just letting them hear what full preterism actually teaches, because I'm convinced someone that has the anointing of Christ and the

33:57

Holy spirit and dwelling in them the way that first John chapter two, the Holy spirit will bear witness with our spirit when we hear things that are so wrong and do not, um, comport with reality, right?

34:09

And so when, when people say, wait, Christ already came, when did, like, how did that happen when they, and then when full preterism says, when full preterism says, yeah, that was a spiritual coming, then you already think, okay, well, we've been warned about Gnosticism, right?

34:25

Um, and then when the resurrection of the dead already happened, and you're like, I haven't received a resurrected body.

34:31

And then when you get told that we're actually living in the new heavens and new earth right now, and spiritual warfare is no longer most, uh, people intuitively know something's not wrong with that.

34:45

But to your point about the, the, the tick and increase is, and I want to be kind to our post millennial brothers out there, but full preterism is a deviation one step further past post millennialism.

35:00

And it's the idea, and this is the same problems that Gary DeMar has, um, started tampering with and, um, has arrived in the full preterist camp.

35:09

So I tell people, Hey, we love the old works. I'm trying to think I have a last days madness, um, here in my library and very helpful piece of work for how to kind of be on the lookout for dispensational theology and the cracks over there.

35:22

What are you gonna say? I still recommend his God in government when talking about the founding of the nation and how it was a Christian nation, but, uh, can't recommend anything in the last two to three years for sure.

35:33

This is why I think there's a perversion from post -millennialism that pumps out full preterism.

35:40

And it's a misunderstanding of this age and the age to come. What Gary DeMar has always pushed is this age is the mosaic

35:51

Aeon that terminated in 70 AD. And the problem with that is when you look at the

35:57

Olivet discourse, when you look at Daniel nine, and when you start looking at first Corinthians 15, things like this, then you're left with to conclude, okay, since this age is already terminated 70

36:08

AD, that that was the last days that we read about in the new covenant or in the new

36:14

Testament, then you have the age to come. And so you really are forced to have the second coming of Jesus at the end of this age.

36:25

And if that's this mosaic Aeon, well, then that already happened in the past. And I think that right there is 90 % of the full preterist argument.

36:36

And so there are partial preterists post -millennialists that will kind of affirm that, but they know better to, and then they'll say, well, we're living in the, the already not yet steel.

36:49

So even though the mosaic Aeon has terminated, we're bleeding over into the golden age of post -millennial time where Christ will still return to defeat death, but I tell people, if you can be on guard for understanding that this age is this temporal age that began with Adam and when he sinned that marked the, this present evil age, right.

37:13

And it will continue until the last day John six talks about when Christ returns at the end of this age to consummate this eternal kingdom.

37:23

That's the proper balance. And that's the, that's the view that pre -millennialists, all millennialists, and still a healthy majority of post -millennialists will hold to.

37:33

Yeah. All right. So one more question about this, and then we're going to talk bracket and then we'll finish this up. So I've had a lot of theological ideas kind of lead to other exploration of correct ones.

37:46

That's a large jump for, to, to land on from Orthodox Christianity to there's already been a resurrection of the dead.

37:54

Jesus already came back. Christ has returned. What's the gateway to full preterism.

38:00

Did you already answer that? Would you think it's post -millennialism? Is that too, is that too tough? Or is there something else that will get people, there's gotta be a, there's gotta be a lily pad they jumped to first.

38:10

Cause I mean, that is a huge jump to leave Orthodoxy and then go, nope, it's all done, Christ returned, dead bodies already, you know what

38:16

I mean? From, from what you, from what the majority of Christians are taught. So what's that gateway thought do you think? Yeah.

38:21

Is it narcissism? Is it. A little bit of it is just a, you know, not being familiar and okay with, with a healthy post -millennial, you know, theology.

38:33

So, so that's a little bit of it. But then, um, there is usually what really is convincing to people that go full preterist are what's called the timing indicators.

38:45

When Jesus said things like the time is near, the time is at hand, these things will take place soon, right?

38:51

And so some people, uh, just take that with the Olivet discourse and wrongly conclude that all of these things, including, uh, the parrhesia of Christ must take place, um, with this generation, you know what

39:06

I mean? And so it's usually the full preterist in a dispensationalist ear, someone that's, you know, just dispensational, uh, because of their upbringing and, and not a healthy church, and they don't know how to combat the argumentation of someone that's constantly pressing them on, um, internal consistency.

39:25

And so, um, I would say, uh, we see that, and this is probably the big thing, okay, is there is pride in those people that look at a historic faith like Christianity, where all the creeds,

39:38

Greg, look forward to Jesus's future bodily return and look forward to a future bodily resurrection of the dead, who look forward to a physical restoration of all things.

39:51

This is what is at the heart, whether someone was post -millennial or not, the full preterist in pride has to say, you know what the church that Christ said he would build and the gates of hell would not prevail has to say the, the ancient church is wrong in our blessed hope.

40:10

And I got the answer now. So you need to look to me to how to understand a realized past blessed hope.

40:17

I would say a very, very early belief in one that lasted for thousands and thousands of years, or at least a thousand years before anything else was introduced.

40:25

So, yeah, absolutely. But it sounds like, uh, yeah, preterism, like all other bad doctrines and theologies, uh, start with a bad hermeneutic, right.

40:32

Focusing in on one or two verses, uh, making that a primary doctrine and then growing out from there.

40:40

And you see that in, um, you know, you see, see that in far right and left

40:45

Pentecostal movements with gifts and tongues and one verse we have that says something and we don't let scripture interpret scripture, we don't read it in context of the verse chapter book in the party who was written to.

40:57

And the next thing, you know, we have a new doctrine, a new denomination, and we have heresies all over.

41:02

But, um, yeah, that's interesting. So yeah, apologetic dog on YouTube. Go check that out more of that kind of talk. I'm guessing, uh, from your, from your channel.

41:10

All right. As we finish this up, um, when people are listening to this, when it comes out Wednesday, uh, we will be in day three of the bracket, we've expanded it.

41:18

The 2025 best reformed podcast bracket, 128, uh, fields, 128 podcasts.

41:26

You're going to be up, uh, on day four. It'll be day three. When you're listening to this right now, you're going up against a, who are you going up against when we understand the text with a pastor

41:36

Gabriel Hughes. That was a random generator, nothing personal there. Uh, people always ask me, how do you see these?

41:42

And I go look at random generator and away you go, um, does wonders. What are you thinking?

41:47

This, is this your first year in the bracket? I don't think you were included. Well, someone sent me a screenshot.

41:52

So I'm going to admit something and you can rebuke me. I don't have a Twitter account. In fact, uh, dr.

41:58

White posted our debates on Twitter and he let everyone know to his disappointment. He goes, surprisingly,

42:04

Jeremiah does not have a Twitter. And I'm like, I have done YouTube and Facebook for years.

42:11

And so I'm trying to branch out. I'll get on Twitter. So someone said, Hey, do you rise? You're in a bracket. And I was like,

42:16

Oh my goodness. No, I didn't know that. So someone let me know just a day or so ago. Well, listen, uh, today, if you're listening on Wednesday, when this releases, it's the 12th, uh, like I said, it started the 10th,

42:26

February 10th through 21st, get on X so we can tag you, get you some followers on X apologetic dog. Um, you, it's going to be the first round here tomorrow for you.

42:35

I'm excited though, uh, because I had a lot of people, um, tag me, uh, or tag you, your name and apologetic dog in the direct messages, because what

42:45

I did is I opened it up for two weeks and said, Hey guys, we're expanding. Give me some good podcasts that qualify. We'll go through.

42:50

And I got four or five people. So for not, uh, for not being on X, you have listeners that are on X supporting you and wanting to see you in that bracket.

42:59

So good luck to you on a apologetic dog. And for everyone listening, uh, you can vote daily now until the 21st of February at real

43:06

DMW podcast only on X it's an only on X bracket. And it's pretty cool because winners getting a $500 rebound

43:13

Bible from Rockwell Bible, uh, we're giving away a coffee pack from squirrely Joe's.

43:19

He's given away mugs and some coffee. I got some behind me there. Um, we've got a month of free professional editing.

43:25

I've got a book pack from eschatology now that's been given away. Um, and then I have a cigar pack from Patriot patriarch cigars, giving a legacy cigar pack away.

43:35

And that's not just first place. There's going to be multiple place winners. So if you're listening, did a little self promotion there, go vote on that right now, uh, for your favorite podcast so they can win some prizes.

43:44

But Jeremiah, uh, man, I'm so excited to watch this debate. Um, we'll make sure we link up everything below.

43:51

So if you're listening or watching right now, you'll have time. It's a few weeks before, but, um, tell everyone where they can get ahold of you on social media, just in case, uh, you left anything out.

44:02

Yes. Um, well definitely flow over to the apologetic dog YouTube channel where I try to interact with the comment section a lot.

44:10

So, um, Greg, I forgot I got, I got a lot of trolls out there, but that's fun. Uh, but yeah, so people can email me.

44:17

I have that posted at my website, the apologetic dog .com. So constantly updating that, um, have a

44:24

Patrion. Um, I appreciate all the support that people have reached out and asked how they can support financial.

44:30

And I always ask if you can keep me in prayer that is so valued. Um, and so I'm also active on Facebook.

44:36

Dr. White has let me know that he is disappointed that that is the only place that people kind of reach out to me.

44:42

So I will be expanding to more platforms, but yeah, just send me, you can send me an email, you'll, you'll find that posted on my

44:48

Facebook, on my website and things like that. Um, so yeah, so I look forward to, um, everyone that's able to, uh, reach out to the apologetic dog.

44:57

All right. Awesome, man. Jeremiah Nortier. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks so much, Greg, for having me.

45:03

Absolutely. As always guys, remember, you can find out more about us at dmwpodcast .com. We have the merch store there too.

45:09

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45:14

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45:22

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45:29

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