The Vinedresser & The Branches

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Well, it seems the heat has driven some people away or something. I don't know we had some cool days there and now
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Back to plain old Arizona for a while. I Guess we set a record yesterday and had been set back in 92.
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I think so. I Don't know That's okay.
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Well, we'll survive we'll survive It'll only be a matter of weeks before Roxy will be wearing a jacket.
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So of course that means they'll be below a hundred and seven. So that's how that works.
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But Anyway we are in Trying to pick up some speed in the
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Gospel of John so that we can get back to the synoptic studies we can finish the synoptic study basically and There are many reasons to do that aside from the passing of decades, but There's still just so much here that I hate to skip over things.
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We hopefully Had dealt with John chapter 14 verse 28 well enough that I could give you all a quiz today and you all would be able to just Knock it right out of the park if I were to role -play a
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Jehovah's Witness with you all I'm sure that in fact, I'm sure everyone in here is going.
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Oh, please do that and let me volunteer Right, that's what you're all
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He's gotten to me too well, okay, but I just wanted you know,
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I just want to feel that you know, you you all are very confident And how you would handle?
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Someone quoting John 14 28 the father is greater than I am in the future. So with that when we look at the next two chapters prior to the 17th chapter of the
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Lord's True truly the real Lord's Prayer when you think about it
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Because what we call the Lord's Prayer is really the disciples prayer it's a prayer the
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Lord gives to the disciples and John chapter 17 is the Lord's Prayer. It's frequently called his high priestly prayer and But before we get there we have chapters 15 and 16 all of this material from that last night before betrayal
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It's it's interesting to me always how many quote -unquote scholars
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Dismissed John as having any historical meaning But then when he asks the question you think you think
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Jesus might have had some In -depth teaching with his disciples right before his betrayal, you know
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Maybe that last night there would have been something specially would have said to them. Well, yeah,
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I suppose where's that recording? Why is it not in Mark or Luke or Matthew? well
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It's just What you have here in chapter 15 then
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You've had to be introduction of the coming of the Holy Spirit in chapter 14 that'll that'll become the substance of chapter 16 and in chapter 15, you have the vine the branches and you have the world hating the disciples of Jesus, I don't think these are just Different topics are strung together.
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I think they're all related to one another that is In light of the coming of the
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Spirit, why is it that the world? Hates the followers of Christ.
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Well, what binds them together? What binds them together is the presence of the Holy Spirit of God the Holy Spirit of God is very means by which the world is
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Condemned and convicted of its sin and Therefore you have part of the reason why the world hates the gospel
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As long as you're in rebellion against Christ that gospel is a as Paul would describe it
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Is the stench of death? It's one of the reasons why you just you just cannot possibly interpret
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John 12 32 About if I be lifted up, I'll draw them in myself in such a way.
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Oh, yes, the cross is just so wonderfully attractive to the world The world detests the cross
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If the only way that the world cannot detest the cross is when the world perverts the cross and perverts the meaning of the cross and turns it into a fashion statement or something like that rather than When the world really understands what the cross means what the cross means is that there is punishment for sin and that punishment has to be fulfilled and Then that becomes the background for and God provides the means of forgiveness that's in in only one way
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Now amazingly man gets upset about that man is offended by that. How dare
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God only provide one way I think God needs to provide all sorts of different ways to find forgiveness of sin
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Because we say so Well gives you some insight into into mankind, but anyway this discussion of the world's hatred of The the
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Christian Church is also found in chapter 15 So we we will try to go a little bit more quickly through it a little bit more topically
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But at the same time cannot skip over Obviously the vine the branches story is one that you do need to I think be familiar with simply because is very often urged as indication that at least a portion of the type of doctrine to which we are committed is
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Untrue and that is this is one of the standard places that will be cited by those who will say well
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Jesus himself taught that you can be a true Christian and yet be cast away and burned in the fire and That is based upon the story of the vine the branches chapter 15
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I am the true vine and my father is the vine dresser every branch of me that does not bear fruit He takes away and every branch that bears fruit.
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He prunes it so it may bear more fruit You are already clean because the word which I have spoken to you abide in me and I in you as the branch cannot bear
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Fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine. So neither can you unless you abide in me? I'm the vine you're the branches he who abides in me and I in him
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He bears much fruit for apart from me. You can do nothing if anyone does not abide in me He is thrown away as a branch and dries up and they gather them and cast them in the fire
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They are burned if you abide in me and my words abide in you ask whatever you wish it'll be done for you
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My father is glorified by this to bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples now
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Again not going to be going in depth. I just want to address the the normal Stumbling block
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Why the text is is presented as it is? Obviously the emphasis is upon the centrality of Christ in our relationship with him
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That relationship is going to be continued through the power of the Holy Spirit the Comforter who is going to come
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Even in the context of Jesus is going back to the presence of the Father Jesus teaches about our abiding in him
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So obviously our abiding in him has to be through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God Which Jesus talked about earlier that?
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Even though he's going away. I will come to you again. I'll make my presence with you in fact if I recall correctly did we
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Did we skip? We may have let me We have may have skipped down to this do verse 28, but but it's very important that you see verse 23 of chapter 14
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I apologize if we if we skipped over that Jesus answered and said to him if anyone loves me
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He will keep my word and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our abode with him I Think this is one of the more important texts in the
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New Testament in regards to the relationship of Father Son and Spirit and Our relationship and how we abide in Christ and how we have union with with God And I don't recall covering it so we must have skipped over it to try to get to verse 28
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It is very important notice if anyone loves me he will keep my word Just very very quickly
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Another evidence the deity of Christ my word any prophet would say if anyone
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Loves God he will keep God's Word Not you know Isaiah never says if anyone loves me.
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He will keep the message I deliver that that that's that's never a part of what is said
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And then and my father will love him why because we love the Son so love for one member of the
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Trinity involves love for another member of the Trinity and results in Reciprocal love from that member of the
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Trinity etc. Etc. And my father will love him so there is the again
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Loving of Jesus Results in being loved by the Father you want to be loved by God what's the means by which he has ordained that to happen through the revelation of his son and We will come to him and make our abode with him now it's very important to notice that it's we will come and We will make our abode with him
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Now how does that happen well all this is in the context of The coming of the
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Holy Spirit. I will send to you another parakletha say comforter and so it is vitally important to see that when it when
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Jesus switches to the plural we Will come to him and make our abode with him that is through the presence of the
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Holy Spirit when we are in dwelt by the Holy Spirit we have the Personal presence by the
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Spirit's power of the Father and the Son Now that the Spirit therefore cannot be some impersonal active force
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An impersonal active force is not going to mediate the very personal presence of the Father and the
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Son But at the same time there is no confusion of the Father and the Son the Spirit here Jesus doesn't say and I will come to you as the
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Spirit So there's again. This is why When people say all that Trinity stuff was just made up centuries later and and No, it has to deal with everything that the
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New Testament says and the New Testament quotes Jesus is saying and We my father and I will come to him and make our abode with him within the context of the coming of the
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Spirit of God Very very important I I'm sorry we didn't
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I skipped over that so that's part of the background of what we then have in this discussion of the vine and the vine dresser and then the branches
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Now the assertion of some people is well look whatever else you do the
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Fact is is you have branches Who have been part of the vine that are gathered up and burned that means you can lose your salvation
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That's just all there is to it now This exhortation and remember
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I know I've said a thousand times before chapter and verse divisions modern innovation So you have to see this in the context of you know if you love me you rejoice and going back to friends to my
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Father the world's gonna hate you this spirits coming. He's gonna convict the world. He's gonna be with you forever
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It's your mind, but I said this is all part of the same discourse same night And as I said the things you say to your friends the night before you know you're going to die
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Are very important things and you put some thought into what you're gonna say and why it's important and that's what's going on here and So the idea that in the midst of this you would have a shift of focus from the centrality of the spirit
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The encouragement that Christ is giving that I'm going to send the spirit to you
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The spirits going to uphold you etc etc the idea that that somehow is going to shift to oh
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By the way some of you are going to be burned up. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me Further Jesus has already established in other language that a true a person who is truly in relationship with God in his agricultural language is
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A person who bears fruit remember the parable of the soils Of what was the one thing that distinguished the 30 60 hundredfold from Those that are gathered up those that die the wither away.
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You know don't sprout etc. Etc. It's the bearing of fruit and What is the result of the presence of the
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Spirit of God in the life of the believer? It's the bearing of fruit. What do we call the fruit singular of the spirit?
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That's you know ends up in in Pauline language as well, and so what is
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Jesus talking about here? The only way to bear fruit is to abide in him not to be looking for something else
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Someone else and how do you abide in him who is abiding in Christ with those who are involved with the Spirit of God and?
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So notice what he says He prunes it so there it may
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Every branch of bears fruit he prunes it Well, we haven't gotten here in Hebrews That's the next thing we're going to hit in Hebrews, but interestingly enough in Hebrews chapter 12
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What do we have in the section right after we finish said well you haven't preached out yet So how are we supposed to know what you've read it before the next section is about discipline
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The next section says if you do not receive the discipline of God you are an illegitimate child
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We have a another word that can be used of that term But you're an illegitimate child if you if you do not receive discipline
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Then you're not really a child of God if you do not receive pruning. What does that mean?
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You're really not a child of God So we have a can we have consistent language in Jesus's own parables in the application in Hebrews Chapter 12 this idea that the father prunes every branch that bears fruit, so it may bear more fruit
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You're already clean because the word I have spoken to you Abide in me and I in you as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself
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What does that say unless it abides in the vine so neither can you unless you abide in me? So the fruit that's being spoken of here is supernatural fruit.
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It is that which comes from union with the vine Being in Christ is the only means by which we can bear this fruit
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I am the vine you're the branches and he who abides in me and I in him he bears much fruit
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He who abides in me and I in him Why are any of those branches thrown away because they don't abide in Christ and Christ does not abide in them
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For apart from me you can do nothing so much for plagiarism if anyone does not abide in me
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He is thrown away as a branch and dries up. Well immediate people see it's up to you whether you abide or not
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But I thought you can do nothing outside of Christ. I thought the father was the vine dresser and They gather them and cast them in the fire and they are burned if you abide in me and my word abides in you ask
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What you wish have done few my father is glorified in this what that you bear much fruit and do what and So prove to be my disciples if you do not bear fruit, you are not a disciple.
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It's all there is to it It's all there is to it Now there are gonna be those who are going to make false profession and see that's where people
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That's where you always have to find out from someone if you're talking to someone who's come from a
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Nazarene background a Wesleyan background some type of background where The idea is you can truly be in Christ.
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You can truly be regenerate and Yet Christ fails to save you or as they would put it.
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You do not persevere and hence lose your salvation You've you've always got to ask certain certain questions and one of the questions you have to ask is is
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It possible to have false faith? For many of them any faith is true faith there's no such thing as a false faith and So if anyone has faith, it must be true faith and therefore since people clearly lose faith, then it must follow that You can truly be in Christ and lost
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So they don't even have a category for this concept of false faith, which is why likewise the false teachers on the other side
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The the the libertines we might call them the easy gracers the free gracers who say well all you've got to do is just have a single act of faith in Christ and Then you can just you can just live the way you want.
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There's no need of repentance There's it's just tip your hat toward God you're saved going ahead We got to take a punch then you just go become a
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Buddhist ax murder, whatever and it doesn't make any difference They likewise have the same problem they don't have a concept of false faith
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There's there's no category for that that kind of Thing and of course we find examples of that in the
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New Testament And we can go to first John 2 and why people go out from us and so on and so forth but the point is that The father is glorified by this that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples
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That's the only way that there's ever any proof That's and this bothers people today.
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We live as I said so many times in the microwave generation. I Want I want proof now
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I want the easy way of doing it It's you know,
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I Don't want to have to wait for decades for proof.
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I don't like Jesus's words Where where he says he who endures to the end shall be saved because that sounds too much like work salvation
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Well, it's not work salvation, but it is descriptive of saving faith That is saving faith endures
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That is its greatest evidence of existence is its endurance and And so To prove to be my disciples is did you bear much fruit?
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Well, that's not something. It's just a daily thing. That's that's yearly and How do you say decadely?
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That's something that takes place over time. It's something we observe over time and So unlike many people in our society want an instant test right now, you know, it's
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It's much more something you observe over lengthy periods of time so the emphasis of the vine the branches is the power of Christ by the
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Spirit to bring forth fruit in the disciples that glorifies God Isn't it amazing that so many people will look at the vine the branches story as an example of the power of Man to frustrate the attempts of God and to bring man to eternal ruin
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So often It's where it's where you start and now obviously
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I would argue that just just reading chapters 14 through 16 as a whole Is going to provide you with that context and it's gonna give you
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Hopefully you're gonna read the whole context and go Wow Why would why would anybody interpret it that way
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I mean, it's right there's there's a clear flow here but The vast majority of people do not interpret the
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Bible in that way I mean, it's been a long long time since I was in this context, but I've been in the context of Baptist churches where Bible study was where everybody sits around and you you pick out a couple verses and you read the verses and then the
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Bible study leader goes brother Ricketts How do you feel about that?
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You feel good. I do too How about you brother brick you feel good about that?
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You don't feel so good that now brother and we need to abide in unity You know, I mean, this is
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I I don't want to be mocking but I've been there I mean when you can start with a text and and someone ends up taking it off into some topic that is
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Completely disconnected from where you started that's not really but that's all a lot of people know and The idea of looking at the vine the branches as part of a discourse
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That has themes that has a purpose that has a direction We're a little bit weird to do it that way it makes perfect sense it's the right way to do it but It it's not it's not the normal way that it's done so You say yeah, but you know,
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I've got a relative that I'll you know, this is one of their favorite texts and The holidays are coming again.
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We might have to talk about this Like that over over Turkey or something. Well the only the only way to deal with it is to know
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The flow of the text so intimately as to be able to provide that context and to bring them into it and my experience is
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With people who really do love the Word of God and they really do believe that this the Bible is God's Word.
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They'll hear that others It doesn't necessarily prove anything, but they're just so Deeply steeped in their tradition that you can just have to leave it to God you you can't force anyone to see
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God's truth But in my experience the best way to be used to help someone see something like the perfection of Christ's work as Savior Is to introduce them to how to listen to the word properly
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That really really really is a vitally important thing to be able to do so Again, you can do nothing apart from me.
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My father is glorified in this if you bear much fruit I'm sending the Holy Spirit of God it all fits together it all fits together and It then of course becomes very much the
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Context then of how we're to live the Christian life for example verse 9 just the father has loved me
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I have also loved you abide in my love if you keep my commandments You will abide in my love just as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love so obviously the keeping of commandments
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It's not some kind of external ritualistic Pharisaical I've got my calendar at home with my 613 commandments, and I've marked them all off today type of a thing
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This is also again, and I ask your indulgence
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When you're only a few weeks out from something is As stressful as I'm going to be doing in South Africa I Really think they're trying to kill me down there simply by Multiplying the number of debates.
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It's it's basically to the point. We're talking about more than one a day now a whole time there But in fact the the the primary fellow that I'm looking to debate down there who sort of took a
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Akhmet didots place in the International Islamic propagation Center down there use of this mile an attorney
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Said in the in an email that I got just this morning How do you put it? It was is very humorous?
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How do you put it you you seem to create an? Obsessive compulsive attitude amongst many people they started lifting all the people down South Africa They're demanding an opportunity to debate me on this trip, and it was meant to be humorous
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But I found it. I found it somewhat somewhat humorous, but also not necessarily all that humorous at the same time anyway
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I keep telling them. I'm planning on coming back. You know we'll do it again. Maybe next year
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You know maybe combine it with with Berlin or something I don't know, but we don't have to do everything all at once it's it's ridiculous
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But it's just that's what's in my mind and of course One of the topics that has been suggested for Shabir and Shabir Ali and I to debate which he and I have not discussed is this issue of salvation and one of the hardest things
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To communicate, but but one of the most glorious things to communicate To the
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Muslim people is the concept of how obedience? to God's Commandments Flows from having a loving relationship with him
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Oh Some of you have read some of the books from solid ground Christian publishers
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Mike Gadosh Does solid ground I have a couple books with solid ground? They're asking me to write a book on the cross
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I really want to do is just sort of like But I still need to sleep. You know type of a type of a situation. I want to do it.
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I may just start Trying to spend five or ten minutes just outline a chapter or something or put in a paragraph or just you know
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That may be the way of writing a book over 25 years I don't know, but I may give it a shot. I don't know
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I've not tried it that way, but but they're putting out a book by a Convert from Islam by name of Kareem.
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His first name is Kareem and They've asked me to read the book I listened to it on my rides this week and He lives here in United States he's
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Because I'm reading the book he's started watching some of my debates and stuff He's been really encouraged by it, which is really cool to have that type of thing
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But I'm trying to get him together my Arabic tutor. They're both in Damascus, which is interesting but one of the things that That took quite some time in the narrative of his book to really come to understand
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Was how we could? Love a holy God the idea of loving
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Allah Just is not a central aspect of Of Islamic experience now your your highest forms of Islam will will speak of this, but the problem is the
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Quran really doesn't provide you a basis for it and in listening to Muslims who have converted from Christianity or what they thought was
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Christianity obviously One of the things they frequently say is that well, I've really appreciated the guidance
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That Islam gives that Christianity does not They don't understand
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This type of text where you have Jesus talking about if you keep my commandments
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Well, what are those commandments? Well for the Muslim they have to be written out To the nth degree.
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So for example when you eat dates Anybody in here like dates? So if you like dates, okay,
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I can honestly admit and some of you are not gonna be shocked by this at all I've never eaten a date.
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Okay Some of you're shocked that but those of you who know me are going. Yeah, right Probably not something you're gonna find at McDonald's but Believe it or not.
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My diet has actually changed a great deal since those days, which is why whoever it is in a few weeks
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When Thanksgiving comes around again who falsely puts in? That thing about Arby's whoever you are when you are discovered you will be excommunicated
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But whoever you are who has done that for decades now you have not been following my my diet, especially over the past three years, you really haven't whoever you are and You're probably in this room right now, and you're probably feeling guilty.
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At least I hope you are Anyway Dates oh, no,
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I I knew exactly where I was. I'm looking at faces right now. I'm looking for evidences of Guilt my son's looking pretty pretty guilty.
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I've suspected him for a very long time personally If we got any cops in the room, maybe you could take him the other room and do a little cop magic.
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Okay, you know I'd like to find out about that. But anyways if you do eat dates
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You must eat them in an odd number one three five seven do not eat six days
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Do not eat two days not ninety four days You say why because Muhammad did not ever eat dates in even numbers
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So you shouldn't either just that simple. I mean you're given direct
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I Mean you're given you're given direct information as to which way you should face while relieving yourself
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How many stones you should use? Well, this was before toilet paper, but how many stones you should use in cleaning yourself?
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Yes, everything it is written out Exactly for you and see that's what keeping commandments is about and they look at this and they go
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What are Jesus's commandments and we start talking about the commandments they? Their commandments that require you to think through how they're applicable to your life where God has put you
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They're not written out in just little black and white things that says well, you know Plant this many plants and eat this many dates and face this direction and say this at this time of the day
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That's that's that would not work for a gospel that is meant for the whole world That's why
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I was amazed Use of his mail sent me a Email earlier in the week and he said by the way you might want to listen to my opening statement in this debate that I did on YouTube and So I downloaded it listen to it in me.
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It is about 40 50 minutes and like And it was why I'm a Muslim and not
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Anything else which included Christianity and one of the things that was was fascinating to me Was he said
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Christianity is clearly only meant for a particular people and Islam is meant for the whole world and I would just argue the
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Exact opposite of that the exact opposite of that the very fact that the attempt to establish sharia law in Lands today is causing so much violence and death and everything else clearly demonstrates
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That it's that's not a message the whole world It is a culture that is being violently forced upon many people
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But it's not a message to the whole world and so I would argue that in a text like this
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If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love now that that is unfortunately the
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Muslim here is that and Says, okay by my keeping the commandments.
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I make myself worthy to be loved by Allah That's what the Muslim here That's not what
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Jesus is saying You see because you're in dwelt and it's not that would be no more than Just as I have kept my father's love and abide in his my father's commands and abide in his love
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Does the father love the son because the son has earned his love through?
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obedience no the obedience flows from the wholeness and wellness of the
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Relationship that eternally exists between father and son and we are being invited into that same
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And this is amazing thing that same Trinitarian love a
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Love that has existed for eternity in perfection. We are being invited into that Not so that we can prove
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Worthiness but because if we are truly changed with the Spirit of God It is our desire to keep his commandments and to walk in unity with him a totally 180 degree different perspective that what would be heard
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Not only by the Muslim but sadly by many Christians who have not been given the message of grace
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But have been given a message of works How do
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I know that's exactly what Jesus saying cuz verse 11 says though these things I have spoken to you So that my joy may be in you and your joy may be made full if what all this about was before Was better keep your nose clean
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You might be a branch today, but tomorrow you could be a smoking ember Better keep
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God's commandments you miss one of them and you're heading to hellfire if that's what that was all about I'm not sure exactly what verse 11 is doing there
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These things I have spoken to you so that you may be scared absolutely to death Should be verse 11, but that's not what it says
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These things I have spoken to you since you my joy may be in you that your joy may be made full People who love to do what
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God commands us to do do so because our Hearts and minds are in unity with his will
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That's why up above I didn't spend much time on ask what you will it'll be done for you when your will is in line with God's will
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Then what you ask is what God desires for you That's that we talked about this
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I don't know six months ago something like that we discussed that particular aspect of it So this joy that Jesus has in being the perfectly obedient Son of God is
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The joy has been his through eternity because of the perfect relationship of the Father and the Son The Son by his death burial and resurrection and the sending of the
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Holy Spirit is going to provide the way by which we can have That same kind of joy, and it's through the perfection of his work and the coming of the
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Holy Spirit as result then of The relationship we have with God then we are to have a new and changed relationship with one another
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This is my commandment that you love one another just as I have loved you great Love has no other nest that one lay down his life for his friends
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You are my friends if I if you do what I command you the longer I call you slaves the slave does not know what his
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Master is doing, but I have called you friends for all things that I've heard from my father I have made known to you you did not choose me
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But I chose you and appointed you that you would bear go and bear fruit and that your fruit would remain So whatever you ask in the of the father in my name he may give to you now again
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This is first and foremost fulfilled in the disciples themselves. I Do not necessarily suggest that John 15 16 is the best place for you to go
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To begin a discussion of the concept of divine election unto salvation Mainly because I think the immediate application
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The immediate fulfillment is disciples. I think there is in a general sense a a later a way to apply this
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In a general sense, but the first and foremost application Is to the disciples themselves and that they are called friends
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That Christ is laying down his life for his friends and that as a result when they recognize who they are
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They should have love for one another this command I this
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I command you that you love one another That basis is not the basis of our the commandment to love one another is not found in The idea that we are all so wonderfully lovable But the basis for the command that we love one another is that each one is loved
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By our Lord Jesus Christ. So the idea is if I love him If I follow him and he loves that one, then
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I lay down my life for that one And I think that's that's a a liberating thought because the fact matter is we're all different from one another and We would not naturally be drawn to every person in the congregation
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And sometimes people think well for command to love one another that's awfully unnatural I mean there are just some people have a personality just greats against mine all the time
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Okay But that's not the basis upon which were to love one another I'm not supposed to just sort of work up some phony
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Type of affection in my heart just to be able to say well, yes, I love the brethren The Reason that we fulfill this command is because we see this is one of the beloved of my beloved this is one who like I am a servant of the one
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I love our love for one another should flow first and foremost from our love for Christ and our recognition of our
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Union together first in him and then Because we're in him to one another
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It's not like well. You better like the folks of church because you're gonna be spending eternity with him
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Okay, that's a real If that helps you great fine wonderful. I'm really not sure that helps me a whole lot, but I see the real foundation being found in the recognition of the
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Centrality of our relationship to Christ and then seeing his relationship to others They are beloved to him therefore they need to be beloved to me as well
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Because we are both servants of Christ and both dependent upon him for all things none of us can do anything apart from him well
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I Wanted to get into the world Disciples relationship to the world in verse 18, but that's a good place to stop
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And it's a topic unto itself as well, so let's stop there and pick up with verse 18 of chapter 15 our chapter whatever chapter in Next time around let's pray
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Dear Heavenly Father. We do. Thank you for the exhortation That is found in your word to abide in you we thank you that it is your work within us that bears fruit
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We look away from ourselves we look to you And we do thank you that we can have your joy made full within us by the
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Spirit Lord may we consider these truths may we live in light of them May they encourage us in our ministry and our service to you this week.