WWUTT 1135 Q&A Old Testament Law, Essential Eschatology, Visions and Voices, End Times Views?

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How much of Old Testament law should we implement in our current social laws? Why is eschatology an essential doctrine?

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And what are the different views of the end times? The answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

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This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study in the Word of Christ, that we may be

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His disciples, taking up our cross daily and following after Him. Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .utt

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.com. So you don't have a banter beginning.

01:06

No, I can't think of the word that I, a controversial. A controversial? Yes. I almost couldn't say it either.

01:12

I had a controversial thing. Um, tweet. Ooh. Ooh. Yeah. The other day. I was going to say which day.

01:18

Which, which day was my controversial tweet? And it was about the, the death penalty. Yes. Yes. So would you care to, um, since we have the floor here and no interruptions at the moment, do you care to explain your position a little bit more?

01:33

Because, because it does seem like it is more, um, harsh than your, your, than your usual tone.

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Yeah. Becky even had a, uh, a friend text her and go, what's up with Gabe? That was pretty harsh.

01:48

Yeah. I don't, I don't think it was any different than other things I've said. Well, in your mind though, you know, it, it, it sounds all the same, but sure.

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To people reading you through their minds, you know, of what you would sound like, of how you would say that.

02:02

Okay. Trying to, yeah. Perceive my tone. There we go. Perceive your tone. Because this is in a tweet, so it's not like a verbal explanation.

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So would you like to. Okay. So the tweet that I made, the one that was so controversial, I don't remember what day this was.

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Wednesday. Wednesday. I think I said this. Yeah. I think so. Uh, I commented, I don't believe rapists and child molesters should go to jail.

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I think they should go to their graves. Deuteronomy 22. Yep. Deuteronomy 22 verses 25 through 27.

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Okay. Convicted rapists, molesters, and murderers deserve the death penalty. They get a few days to make peace with God and then they're sent to meet him.

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Now I'm not going to get graphic here, but the beginning of the blog that I wrote in response to this, in response to some of the comments that I was getting about this,

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I start with a story of a guy who was in prison for molesting children and he got out and did it again.

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And it's like you would have. Repeated offenders. Right. Repeated offenders. You would have saved so much trauma by doing what

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God's law says and putting that man to death because that's what he deserves for it. But in all the responses that I get, it was clear that people just didn't understand the law of God and nor had they really thought through these things.

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And there is this - Yeah, there was a lot of responses that were just kind of going to the other extreme.

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Right. Even when a person was asking a question, they were being genuinely inquisitive.

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There was still a temptation on my part to say to them, have you never thought through this before?

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I mean, have you never read the law? Some people will struggle with, well, where do I start in this thing?

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Because it's Genesis to Deuteronomy. So, I'm supposed to read the whole thing? Well, yeah, you do need to read the whole thing. Right. But remember that the book of Deuteronomy is second law.

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That's literally what the name means. Deuteronomy means second law. Okay. That makes sense. It's taking the laws that were given in Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers and giving them again.

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Because remember, this is the generation that's now going into the promised land. Oh, right. Yeah. And they forgot everything.

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Well, it was sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much because they were kept through the wandering and whatnot.

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Well, yeah, the generation that was guilty of the grumbling that caused this exile of wandering around in the desert for 40 years, they're all dead.

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Right. But then their children don't remember how they were cared for during this time of wandering by God.

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Right. And then once they, didn't they want to go back to Egypt to be enslaved or whatever? Well, their parents did.

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Yeah. Oh, it was their parents. Yes. Okay. But many of these children, they don't remember what happened in Egypt.

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Oh, okay. Yeah. Nor had they even been circumcised. Okay. So before they're going into the promised land, they're going to be circumcised.

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But Moses is giving this final address. It's his farewell address. Okay. And in doing so, reminds them of the blessings that God has given to them, the laws that he has laid down for them, and the importance of following these laws.

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And if they follow these laws, then God will give them this. But if they should go against God's ways, then he is going to send them back to Egypt in ships, which is something that he promised he was not going to do.

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So there are conditions to this covenant that God is giving to his people.

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And so Moses reiterates again, the law that had been given by God. You have the 10 commandments given again.

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Many of the laws that you find in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers come up again. Laws pertaining to Sabbath, laws pertaining to equal weights and measures, laws pertaining to even moral issues.

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And so some of those moral issues include rape and murder. What is the penalty for those who do these things?

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Well, the penalty is death. And the explanation is even given in Deuteronomy 22 as to why the penalty for rape is death.

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It's because, and it states, it's the same as if you had murdered your neighbor.

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So therefore, rape is to be considered the same as murder. Now some of the questions that were coming to me were things like, what about those who are guilty of adultery?

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Should we stone them too? Because that's what the law of Moses says. Should we also execute anyone who doesn't obey the

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Sabbath? Should we give stubborn and rebellious sons the death penalty also, which, you know, that's out of Deuteronomy, where it says that if a stubborn, rebellious, drunkard, and lazy son won't repent, then his parents have him turned in and stone him to death.

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Of course, we're not talking about an eight -year -old. Right. Definitely. Anyway, so yeah, how far do we take this?

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If we're going to go back to Old Testament law when it comes to executing the death penalty, no pun intended in that, then how far do we go with this?

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Well, consider this. Keep in mind that the law equates rape with murder, and the two are to be tried the same.

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Hundreds of years prior to the giving of the law to Moses and to Israel at Mount Sinai, God said the following to Noah in Genesis 9, 5 through 6, for your lifeblood,

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I will require a reckoning. From every beast, I will require it, and from man.

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From his fellow man, I will require a reckoning for the life of a man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.

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For God made man in his own image. In other words, a life for a life is an absolute principle that's bound up in nature, a moral law that has been defined by the

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Creator God and imposed upon every living creature. Man has been made in the image of God.

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Therefore, the death of a man by any other man or living creature is the same as an assault on the image of God himself.

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If a man kills a man, the murderer is to be put to death. If an animal kills a man, the animal is to be put to death.

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This is back in Numbers 35 where it talks about if an ox gores a man, well, that animal is supposed to be put to death.

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So even other creatures are held to this standard because to destroy another human life is to destroy that which was created in the image of God.

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It's an offense against God himself. Even if you're talking about two unbelievers fighting with one another, you know, one unbeliever kills another unbeliever, well, he's not held to a certain standard because he didn't even know that person was made in the image of God.

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No, yes, he is. Yeah, definitely. And we all inherently understand that there is something more fundamentally valuable about a human life than an animal's life.

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PETA or somebody like that might suppress the truth with unrighteousness, but we all inherently know human life has more value than animal life.

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So when a human being is killed, that is a greater offense than if any other living creature is killed.

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Do you see the way that our society is going now where, I mean, abortion is so highly valued and protected as a quote unquote human right, whereas if you were to go walk into a turtle's nest.

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Which is ironic because it's not a human right. It's a one person right.

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It's not a right at all. I mean, you're basically arguing for the right to kill another person. If they would word it for how they want it, it would not be.

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You're talking about it being a paradox. It's a human right to kill another human. Right.

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Exactly. Yeah. But then you go walk through a turtle's nest and you walk on turtle eggs or you throw a bunch of kittens in a garbage can or something like that.

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Then there's huge retribution that's gonna come down on you because of these horrible sinful acts that the culture has deemed that you've done.

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So there seems to be more to protect the life of animals than protecting the life of young humans.

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Yeah. Crazy, crazy stuff. So the statement that I made there in that tweet is that this is just very simply,

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I mean, a person who is guilty of rape, murder or child molesting deserves the death penalty.

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Now I do have a reason for tweeting what it was that I tweeted. It wasn't just a random thought that I had and I put out there.

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I was thinking about how we're coming up on the anniversary is not really the best word to use, but it's been one year since the

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Houston Chronicle article broke on the sex abuse crisis that's going on in the

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Southern Baptist Convention or Southern Baptist denomination, we'll put it that way. So we're coming up on that one year ago since those articles started breaking in the

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Houston Chronicle. So I've been thinking about how much has the Southern Baptist Convention actually accomplished since then.

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We had the Caring Well Conference that the ERLC put on, which was totally focused on this issue.

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And of course, it was kind of the forefront issue at the Southern Baptist Convention in Alabama back in June. So what has the

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Southern Baptist Convention accomplished in one year? Not much. I've never heard anyone in the

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SBC talking about this issue say what exactly a person who's guilty of these sins deserves.

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Yes, they deserve to be, if they work in a church, removed from a church, they can never hold that position again.

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I'm totally in favor of, you've heard me say this before, I've written articles on it before. If a pastor even has committed adultery, he's cheated on his wife with another woman, he's permanently disqualified from the pulpit.

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As a pastor, he has done this. He's no longer above reproach. So he fails that first qualification as a minister or an overseer in the church.

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So he can't do that again. Permanently removed. In that sense, I'm not totally opposed to there being some sort of a database, because that's one of the things that's come up.

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Can't the SBC start a database where these sex offenders are in that database, so that way they're not going to mistakenly get hired at another church, not realizing that there were these offenses.

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Yeah, because that happened a lot. I don't know about in the denomination, but they would leave one church and go get hired at another.

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Go get hired at another, something like that. Or even within the same network of churches, they would just move a person from one church to the other church.

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Yeah. Oh, wow. That had happened, too. Wow. So thinking back on what has the

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SBC accomplished since then, what has actually been stated about what these criminals deserve?

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Justice. If we love justice, if we love the justice of God, the

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SBC should take a stance on saying these persons deserve death. They deserve the death penalty.

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And we would even— No, but you can't say that today. That's too harsh. Well, yeah. I don't even know that the SBC has an official position on those who murder should be on death row.

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Yeah. I don't even know that the SBC— That would not look favorably upon— Favorably.

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Favorably. There we go. Sorry, I'm losing my words. Yeah. Now, Tom Askell wrote a great article where he was talking about how—I mean, polity has just gone by the wayside.

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If we were more firm on the disciplinary procedure that needed to be practiced in Southern Baptist churches, which isn't even done in very many churches, less than 10 percent.

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Yeah. Less than 10 percent of churches actually practice church discipline. And when we're talking church discipline, we're not talking, well, this person didn't agree with the vision of the pastor.

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Right. Not that at all. That's not church discipline. Yeah. Not that at all. Or the membership numbers, like a person hasn't shown up at church in a while, so they're on the inactive list, even though we haven't seen them in two years, something like that.

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So things like this, those kinds of things, if we were just practicing basic polity measures, we would be able to protect against repeat sex offenders that end up finding ways to volunteer and work in these churches and things of that nature.

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If the church was solid on church discipline, then we could have prevented a lot of what has happened.

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Does that mean it would solve the entire problem? No. We're sinful people, and you're still going to encounter this in some form or another.

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But how is the church going to deal with it? I mean, this is the SBC's pragmatism coming back to bite them in the butt.

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Their tendency to be attractional, seeker -sensitive, woo in unbelievers, entertain the goats.

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We need to get back to the sound teaching of the gospel, expository preaching, teaching the full counsel of God.

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If we take a harder line on what scripture says about what justice entails.

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It would deter a lot of people. It would. It would. You would hope anyway. Right. But it's a lot of softball pitching.

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Yeah. And it was amazing the number of responses I'm getting from people that seem to have more care and concern for perpetrators than for victims.

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I know. Apparently they're, I mean, it's so funny because it's like the victim world is who we are caring for, but then it seems like everybody is a victim.

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I think it shows in our cartoons of how even the bullies become the best friends.

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Yeah. Right. Everything is just, everybody has a chance. They're just making bad choices right now.

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Just give them a chance. No people, stop. Yeah. Some people are just.

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Just stop. Genuinely evil and they need to be punished for their evil. Yes. And then maybe they will turn from their sin, but until they turn from their sin and show proof of it, show fruit that they have changed, then don't do it.

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I mean, I'm not going to go put our children in with someone who's not acting of fruit.

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You know what I mean? Yeah. Like. Someone that doesn't show that they, by their life, that they are a genuine

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Christian. Yeah. So anyway, that was the tweet that I made and that was the controversy that came about as a result of that.

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But you can go to my blog, pastorgabe .com and you can read some of the more detailed responses that I gave to some of those comments that came in.

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But yeah, Becky brought that up. That's taken 20 minutes of the program now. You're welcome. Yeah. Thanks. That's our bantering. That was how we got started on the program.

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So. A little more serious bantering. A little more serious note at the very beginning. Yeah. Sorry. I mean, as a dad,

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I mean, I can't, I can't even tell you what I would do if I found out somebody did something like that to my kids. I know exactly what

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I would feel. And I pray that the countenance of Christ is upon my mind and my heart enough that I would not try to take matters into my own hands.

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But I absolutely stand firm on the position that somebody is guilty of murder, rape, or child molesting, they deserve the death penalty.

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And that's according to what scripture says. That is following God's law, his just laws.

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And then, and to put upon you, study the law. Yeah. For goodness sake.

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I mean, the reason why people are so ignorant about what these laws mean, how they apply, how we should base our civic laws upon them and things of that nature, it's because our law doesn't get taught in church.

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Because everybody's throwing out the Old Testament. Yeah. Stop throwing out the Old Testament.

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It's the Andy Stanley, unhitched from the Old Testament. It's important. Now, yeah.

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So on that note, the interesting thing about that is some of the persons that were upset at what I said related to that are persons that I would bet have been upset at Andy Stanley for saying unhitched from the

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Old Testament. So you understand that Andy Stanley says that when he says that, he's wrong.

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When he says unhitched from the Old Testament, he's wrong. And yet you're practically doing exactly what it is that he said.

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Maybe you don't agree with the statement. But when you start saying things like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't have to pay attention to those

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Old Testament laws. We're no longer under the law. We're under grace. See, what you do when you do that is you're unhitching from the

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Old Testament. You don't understand the statement as Paul made it in Romans 6. And I mean, just as complicated as it is for the earth to function as the earth.

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I mean, things we don't even understand or the smartest scientists haven't figured out.

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Things like that. God has made us able to live here and breathe air and all that stuff.

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Just so complex. Don't you think there's a reason for his rules and order in the

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Bible, like the instructions to function? Don't you think he knows a little bit more something about how a society works than we do?

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So as much as we don't understand, learn about it so you can understand and so that you love it also.

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Yes. Who loves the law of God. Right. That's Psalm 119. Lord, how I love your law.

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It is my meditation all the day. God's instruction to Joshua in Joshua 1 .8, meditate on this law day and night.

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Do not turn to the right or to the left away from it. What was

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I going to say? Oh, yeah. Don't shrug off having to come to an understanding of law as being, well, that's theonomy.

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We're not theonomous here. So we're not going to follow or implement Old Testament law. Our laws have to start somewhere.

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Are you going to start laws based on man's reasoning or God's? Right. I mean, who created us?

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Seriously. Think about it. He knows how man is supposed to be governed. So we turn to God's law and base our laws off of that.

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If you have to study theonomy, then study theonomy. That's not what I'm advocating for. But don't blow off having to come to a knowledge or an understanding of the law of God as being, well, that's, you know, that was

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Israel in a theocratic era and it's just not a word of God.

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You love all of it. Love all of it from beginning to end. Know how to handle it. Don't just cut it out and say, well,

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I don't have to pay attention to this part. I'm supposed to pay attention to... It is all the word of God. It's all

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God's word. And if it was breathed out by God, it is important. Yes. Even the parts you don't like, even the parts that are gross, even the parts that are genealogies and a bunch of names you can't pronounce, all of it is the word of God.

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It is important. Love the word of God, study it, know how to handle it rightly. As the instruction was given to Timothy in 2

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Timothy 2 .15, rightly handling the word of truth. Yes. Amen. That's all of it. Not just being able to recite that verse from memory, but actually doing what it says.

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So true. All right. Let's get to some questions here. Yeah, let's. So it being Friday, we take questions from listeners and you can send those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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First one says, hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky. We're coming back to a G3 question here. Oh, awesome. My name is

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Jason. We met briefly at G3. I'm the guy who asked you about the amount of data used to record your podcast.

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I don't remember that question. You don't? No. Sorry to break it to you, Jason in North Carolina, but I don't remember that question.

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How much data does it take for me to record? I think we remember faces more than we remember conversations.

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I remember questions pretty well. I just don't remember that one. Yeah. For some reason, it's the videos themselves will fit on an eight gig flash drive.

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If I were to put all of the podcasts on a flash drive, I think it's 50 to 60 gig is what

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I'm up to now on the broadcast. So you would need, I can't remember what they are, 64, 64 gig,

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I guess. Okay. You need something at least that big for me to put all the podcasts on there.

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Or you can just subscribe to Podbean and you got them all right there. I think they're on iTunes as well, but I think iTunes had a limit.

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You can go up to 999 and that's it. Oh, right. Yeah. And we're already up to 1 ,200 broadcasts.

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We're pretty close to that. So yeah, you can't listen to all of them on iTunes. I know they're on Podbean and then there's a bunch of other different podcast hosts.

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Lots of them. Yeah. You can find us through. So it goes on. Anyway, I have a question about the E in your essentials acrostic doctrines, which in a recent

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Q &A broadcast, you mentioned as eschatology. Can you clarify what you mean by that?

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I was taught eschatology is a secondary issue, assuming you are not full preterist, which is considered a heresy.

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Preterism is the idea that Jesus has already returned and all of this stuff was fulfilled by 70

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AD. Everything that's talked about in Revelation, that's full preterism. Thanks and keep up the great work that the both of you do.

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So what we had talked about, this is a few weeks ago, but that acrostic doctrines represents essential doctrines.

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The list doesn't have to be limited to this, but I think it's very good. Hank Hanegraaff is originally the one who came up with this.

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I expounded upon it because he went to Eastern Orthodoxy. And so there's aspects of this acrostic that he wouldn't agree with anymore since he's

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Eastern Orthodox. So each one of these letters represents, yeah, each one of these letters represents an essential doctrine.

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D is the deity of Christ. O is original sin. So you have to know Jesus is

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God. That's the D. Original sin is you have to know that you are a sinner and that you need a savior.

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Yes, original sin goes deeper than that, but that's the basic gist of it. C stands for canon, which is just another word for scripture.

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So you have to know that the Bible is the word of God. Since it is from the scripture that we come to understand the gospel anyway.

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If you don't know that the Bible is God's word from which we get the gospel that saves, then the gospel means nothing to you.

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So that's important. T is Trinity, understanding that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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One God, three persons. You don't have to know how to articulate that in a non -heretical way.

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But if you've heard John 3 .16, you've heard Trinitarian doctrine. For God, the

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Father. So love the world that he gave his only son, Jesus. That whoever believes in him, which happens through the ministry of the

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Holy Spirit, will not perish, but will have everlasting life. So you've heard Trinitarian doctrine, even though you may not be able to articulate what that is.

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And that is essential to understand that in order to have right sound Christian theology.

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R stands for resurrection. So we understand that Jesus Christ was resurrected, not merely in spirit.

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He was resurrected bodily. The tomb is empty. He conquered the grave. That's right. I stands for incarnation, that Jesus took on flesh and dwelt among us.

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God became flesh, became God incarnate. So we believe in the incarnation of Christ.

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In 1 John, we read that if a person denies that Jesus has come into the flesh, he is an antichrist.

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N stands for new creation. So you understand that you're no longer to walk in the old sinful ways, but you're to walk in newness of life.

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For Paul says in Romans chapter six, that if we continue in the same sin that we were in before we came to Christ, then we're not under grace.

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We're still enslaved to our sin. And so nothing's happened. This is exactly what

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Jesus talked about in the parable of the sower in Matthew chapter 13. They receive the word with joy and they sprout up for a little while, but then having no root they wither away and die.

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And so there must be a new creation. There must be evidence of being made new in Christ.

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And if a person denies that, then it's not like, well, I've walked long enough now to demonstrate that I have new creation fruit.

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So therefore I'm a Christian because I've been a Christian for so long a time. That's not what's being argued there.

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But just simply that you're not, your conversion is in a momentary thing. It's not, I said some magic words and I got my get out of hell free card.

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Right. Like I went and said the sinner's prayer or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Walked the aisle. Came to the altar.

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Signed the card. Yeah. The anxious seat, which is what it was in the Methodist denomination before it became the altar call in the

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Billy Graham crusades. So anxious seat. The anxious seat. Right. Okay. Yeah. Because the guy's preaching.

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Yeah. And he's getting all into it. Anxious to get up there. That's right. You're hearing that Billy Sunday sermon. Okay. And you're getting all kind of like, and you're all itchy in your chair and you kind of want to jump up.

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And so it's called the anxious seat. So the whole strategy there was when you get a person in that mood, in that mode where they get up and go, we just got to respond somehow,

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I have to respond to this. How can I know that I can be saved? You got to take advantage of that moment or you're going to lose the person.

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Well, of course. So then you give them something that they can do in action. Because it's emotionally driven. Right. Exactly.

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It's an emotional response. You don't want to lose that emotional response you've stirred up in them. So that's why it was called the anxious seat.

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They want to jump out. Yeah. So you got it. That makes sense. And then eventually it became the altar call, but same principle, same concept behind all of that.

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So then the letter E stands for eschatology or end times. And then the

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S stands for salvation by grace through faith alone. That's the part that Hank Hanegraaff doesn't agree with.

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Right. So E being eschatology. Jason says,

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I was always taught that eschatology is a secondary issue. Eschatology is an essential doctrine because you have to believe that Jesus is going to return.

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Right. Paul talks to Timothy about having put people out of the church because they were saying that Jesus had already returned.

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Right. They are heretics. So he had to put them out of the church because of that. With the

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Thessalonians, his second letter to the Thessalonians, they were really kind of vexed in heart because there were a bunch of false teachers that had come in and convinced them that Christ had already returned and they missed it.

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And so Paul is saying, don't listen to anyone. Yeah, you won't miss it. Claiming to be from us or any of these things and telling you that the day of the

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Lord has already come. And then he explains to them, this is what the day of the Lord is going to look like. Right. So that's why it's an essential doctrine to deny it as heretical.

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Where it's not essential is how these things will come about. So we believe that Jesus is going to come back, but we disagree on the manner in which these things are going to happen.

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So you have your different end times views, dispensationalism, historic premillennialism, amillennialism, postmillennialism, postmillennial reconstructionist dominion theology, right?

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I'm just going to stop you there. We won't get past two questions if that's...

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So yeah, this is where the secondary stuff comes in, the details, the kind of eschatology that you follow.

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You just have to believe that he is coming back and hasn't come back already. And in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, the

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Apostle Paul, when he explains to the Thessalonians about Christ's return, he says to them that we are to encourage one another with these words.

29:56

So it's not supposed to be something that we divide over. Even though we're going to have different perspectives and different views, you can't say to a person, you can't say, well,

30:05

I'm amillennial, you're premillennial, so you're a heretic because you don't believe the amillennial view.

30:12

See that would be divisive. Yeah. Very divisive. It's even fundamentalist because you are dividing, you're elevating to a fundamental level, a secondary issue.

30:23

Right. Yes, we must believe that Christ is going to return. He is going to judge the living and the dead. He is going to bring his recompense with him.

30:31

We have to believe that the judgment of God is coming because it's part of the gospel message that we preach.

30:37

Flee from the wrath that is coming. Yeah. And turn to Jesus Christ and live. So it's part of the gospel, which is why we have to embrace it as an essential doctrine.

30:47

But the manner and the details in which all of these things come about should also not be a cause for division.

30:52

Because we don't know. Because we don't know. I mean, all of these things are prophetic. And so there is some mystery to them.

30:59

There were things that the prophets understood, but then there were other things that the prophets did not understand and God would not allow them to understand.

31:06

When Daniel was having prophecy revealed to him, there were things about the prophecy he didn't get.

31:12

And the angel said to him, it's not for you to know. Right. It's not for you to understand this. Exactly.

31:17

Right now. So there were some things even to the prophets that they didn't get.

31:23

And Paul refers to in Ephesians chapter three, the mystery of Christ that has only since been revealed to us through his life, death, resurrection, and his ascension to heaven.

31:36

Only then has some of these prophetic things that were mysterious to us in the past now been made fully known to us.

31:43

So yeah, with regards to Christ's return, there's definitely going to be some mysterious things about it. We're not going to know until he comes back.

31:50

If you go to our website, www .utt .com, and you click on links, and you've got the list of like sermons and other ministry links that we have on there, there's a series in Revelation that I have on there from Vodie Bauckham.

32:03

Oh, yeah. Very good. Probably the best series that I've ever listened to from Vodie. So listen to from anybody on Revelation.

32:10

So go listen to Vodie series on that. Sometimes he will get to parts of Revelation, and he will say,

32:17

I don't know what this means. And he says, but we can say that and it's all right, because we're not going to know what all of this means.

32:25

Now, the interesting thing about that is when I went through that series with Vodie, and he would get to a part like that, there was one or two occasions where he would say,

32:35

I don't know what this means, and that's fine. It could mean this, it could mean this, but I don't know. I was able to follow up study on those areas where he said he didn't get it.

32:45

And I felt like I came to a pretty clear explanation of what that meant. So anyway, that's just,

32:52

I thought, he led the way. He led the way. And then you can do further study on that and then come to an explanation.

33:00

But yeah, like I said, 1 Thessalonians 4 .18, Paul says, therefore, encourage one another with these words concerning the return of Christ.

33:07

Right, encourage, not discourage, and so discord. And that's not the way that Christians are supposed to act.

33:16

Right. So that's, and I grew up in an environment that was very, very dispensational.

33:22

And it was, if you didn't believe dispensationalism, you were a heretic.

33:29

And there was a... They divided that line. Yeah, they really did. That's fundamentalism. That's what the fundamentalist church does.

33:36

And there was a, there was another church we attended that wasn't quite that harsh, but they did say this.

33:44

If you weren't a dispensationalist, if you denied that there was going to be a seven -year period of tribulation, so the church is raptured at the beginning of seven years, seven -year period of tribulation where the

33:55

Antichrist is in there and all of that, and then Jesus comes back at the end of the seven years. If you denied that, which was

34:02

Schofield, John Nelson Darby kind of came up with that whole map. If you denied it, you still got to go to heaven when

34:11

Jesus came back, but you weren't going to get raptured at the start of the seven years. You had to go through the tribulation because you didn't believe in the tribulation.

34:21

So that's how they struck fear in you in wanting to believe in the dispensational method. You have to believe it or else you're going to have to go through the tribulation.

34:29

But then if they actually, if it's not that way, whenever the end times come and they do have to go through the tribulation, they're going to wonder what on earth just happened.

34:40

I believed, I believed, but no, you didn't believe. I mean, that would be tough to swallow.

34:46

Right. Well, there isn't a seven -year period of tribulation. I know. I'm just saying if that's what they believe and then they're not raptured before that, but there's not one at all.

34:57

No. Yeah. There's the whole question of are you pre -trib, are you mid -trib, are you post -trib?

35:04

Neither. I don't even believe that there is a seven -year trib. So we're in the tribulation. This is the time of tribulation.

35:11

Jesus saying, behold, in this world you will have tribulation, but take heart, I have overcome the world.

35:17

So anyway, I didn't mean to get into a whole eschatological discussion on that. Yeah, you did.

35:23

I'm just teasing. I hold an amillennial perspective because as the way that I present this is

35:30

I'm amillennial by default. Because it's the system that I have the least number of issues with.

35:36

It's not that I fully agree with every tenet or aspect of amillennialism. Every once in a while, somebody will tell me something about amillennialism and I'll say, eh,

35:44

I don't know that I agree with that. So it's just the system that I have the least number of issues with.

35:50

I had to settle on one because nobody was letting me say panmillennial anymore. Yeah. It's all going to pan out in the end.

35:58

I certainly have views about it. But it wasn't an excuse. Right. It wasn't like I was just throwing it. Eh, I don't believe in any of them.

36:04

So I'm just going to accept it's all going to pan out in the end. But it comes across as that, I guess. I think so. Yeah. So I guess

36:09

I had to pick one. Well, if I have to pick one, then I'm amillennial. Yeah. But, you know, we can discuss that.

36:15

We can have conversations about that. I've worked for pastors that were not amillennial. And I didn't have any problem with that.

36:22

Though, because of my experience growing up where if you weren't a dispensationalist, well, here's the penalties that God is going to place upon you because you're a dispensationalist.

36:29

And because of that, since that was the environment I grew up in, then whenever I'm going to work with somebody in ministry,

36:35

I'm sure to lay out now, as far as my eschatology is concerned, this is what I believe. Are you okay with that?

36:41

Right. So that way, we're not going to get into this thing of like, oh, my goodness. You believe what now?

36:47

Yeah. Right. You believe what? I can't do it. That's where we got that name from.

36:52

It was from all the people that were lambasting me about my eschatology when I was a kid. Right. Okay. Not really.

37:00

So, Jason, I hope that clarifies a little bit why eschatology is an essential issue, but then the pattern of eschatology that you choose to believe is not the essential issue.

37:12

Next question comes from Douglas in Georgia, somebody else that we met at G3. Awesome.

37:17

He says, hey, Pastor Gabe, one of my employees that I've been witnessing to says that he has vague visions and dreams before dangerous situations happen.

37:28

He insists that these visions are from God. I disagree for a few reasons, not saying that God can't give visions.

37:35

First of all, Hebrews 1, 1 and 2. Number two, I don't ever remember reading in scripture about vague visions or prophecy.

37:44

Number three, this person is not saved. Number four, he mocks the Bible when

37:49

I reference it. Number five, the way he tells his stories make God appear as if he is unjust.

37:56

What do you think about this? I may be able to provide more details if needed. Well, first of all, to reference

38:02

Hebrews 1, 1 and 2, which was what Doug mentioned here in his first point, long ago at many times and in many ways,

38:10

God spoke to our fathers by the prophets. But in these last days, he has spoken to us by his son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

38:22

And then I'm going to add into this Hebrews 2, starting in verse two, for since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?

38:37

It was declared at first by the Lord and it was attested to us by those who heard while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the

38:47

Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. Those two passages, I believe, Hebrews 1, 1 and 2 and Hebrews 2, 3 and 4,

38:55

I believe that those passages are your strongest evidence against charismaticism or continuationism.

39:02

God intended visions, dreams, miracles for a time to affirm a message that was given by Christ to his apostles to preach the gospel to the world.

39:11

There is not a need for that anymore. For Peter says in 2 Peter 1 that we now have the prophetic word more fully confirmed.

39:20

So we do not need the miracles and visions and all of that anymore to confirm this message that's already been done.

39:27

So therefore... And didn't all of those from the Bible point to Christ in some way?

39:33

All of the miracles? Right. Absolutely. Okay. It affirmed. That's what's being said here in Hebrews 2.

39:38

So it affirmed that the message that was being spoken was from God. Right. That message has been spoken.

39:45

It's been affirmed. There's no need for any of the miracles to affirm it anymore, to confirm it, because we have it more fully confirmed.

39:52

So that's number one. And on Douglas' list where he has five concerns, that was his first concern.

39:59

Number two, I don't ever remember reading in scripture about vague visions or prophecy. Right. I mean, these pointless little visions, what do they mean?

40:08

Yeah. They don't point to Christ. It's not the same. Sharks chasing pirate ships. Yeah. Oh, goodness.

40:14

Let's not. Well, now I've said it. Now I got to play the video. No. No. Yeah, we got to play the video.

40:21

So this is not how dreams and visions work in the

40:27

Bible. A pastor told his congregation to speak prophecy to one another, but his definition of prophecy included visions of sharks and pirate ships.

40:39

Lord, what would you want me to encourage Danny with? And then I quiet again, trying to listen, and then automatically in my head, there's a picture of a ship, a pirate ship.

40:48

There's like cannons on the pirate ship, and there's a shark chasing the pirate ship.

40:54

Prophecy is not praying for people and then sharing whatever random stuff pops in your head. The Bible says if someone speaks in the name of the

41:00

Lord and it doesn't come true, they've spoken presumptuously and it isn't from God. What if we're only talking to ourselves?

41:06

What if we're like, okay, Lord, will you show me somebody and somebody pop in our head and that's just us?

41:13

So what? Oh no, you're going to encourage somebody, right? Like why, why would that be this terrible thing?

41:20

And then what if I'm wrong? Those are the two big things that just haunt, what if we get it wrong and they stone me to death?

41:28

I already said that's not the kind of prophecy we're making. So it's okay to lie to people and take the Lord's name in vain as long as it's positive and encouraging.

41:36

On the contrary, the Bible says, speak the truth with your neighbor and don't grieve the Holy Spirit. What the pastor is unintentionally arguing is that scripture isn't sufficient.

41:45

All the promises of God given in his word through his son, Jesus are not enough. And we need personal revelations of sharks and pirate ships in order to encourage someone.

41:55

The Bible is the prophetic word fully confirmed when we understand the text. So there you go.

42:01

That's why those prophecies are bad. There you go. That was number two. Number three, this person is not saved.

42:08

Now I don't know that that necessarily has to be a prerequisite for receiving visions and dreams.

42:14

Yeah. I was going to say that in there, a few people in the Bible that weren't saved, but they knew like the guy with the, he's supposed to say a curse on Balaam.

42:29

Yeah. Yeah. I knew exactly where you were going, but I was going to, I was going to see if you could, you could get it. Yep. I wouldn't have got the name, but I was getting there.

42:36

But you remember the story. Yep. Yeah. Balaam was supposed to curse Israel. So everything that he said came from God and he regularly, you know, sorry,

42:45

I didn't mean to. Like, yeah, I can't help it. I have to say what God's put in my mouth. I have no idea what's going on.

42:50

That's right. Plus you also had the ventriloquist girl when Paul and Silas came into Philippi and she's revealing visions and stuff like that.

42:59

So that doesn't necessarily mean that the guy is not receiving visions. I just find it highly dubious that he is seeing what he claims is seeing.

43:08

Number four, he mocks the Bible when I reference it. Well, tell him to repent. That's an unsaved person.

43:14

Yeah. And then number five, the way that he tells his stories make God as if he's unjust, which is also unsaved.

43:23

Yeah. So, so again, I don't know that necessarily means he's not actually receiving visions of some kind. It could just be random stuff that's popping in his head and he's claiming that it's some sort of otherworldly knowledge.

43:33

I don't know. But it's it clearly sounds like a guy that needs to hear the gospel at the very least.

43:39

Yeah. Told to repent and follow Christ. All right. This next question comes from Daryl.

43:46

So that was Douglas. We've had Jason, Douglas and Daryl. Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky.

43:51

I have a two part question. Today, I listened to a couple of Jeff Durbin's debates against atheists on YouTube.

43:59

The one where Jeff Durbin and James White debate against Greg Clark and Dan Ellis was heated.

44:04

I've seen a little bit of that debate, so I know what you're talking about. My first question is pretty simple. Can you give me an example of what a presuppositionalist believes?

44:15

My second question is, what's the difference between premillennialism, amillennialism and postmillennialism?

44:21

Hey, which we just talked about, did just talk about that. I'd like to know what camp I believe in.

44:27

But first, I need to know what they mean. If this makes it on the podcast, then thank you. Have a great night and God bless you both.

44:34

Oh, thanks. So let's start with the first one, which was about presuppositionalism.

44:41

What is it? Great. What does a presuppositionalist believe? Well, that word itself is most commonly associated with Cornelius Van Til.

44:49

OK. He was the theologian that kind of popularized the concept of presuppositionalism. I never read any

44:55

Van Til before I was a presuppositionalist. So my concept of presuppositionalism has nothing to do with what

45:04

Cornelius Van Til taught. I didn't even know he was the guy behind it. I got my understanding, my concept of presuppositionalism from scripture.

45:13

And then somebody later told me, hey, there's a name for that theological viewpoint. And it happens to be this and it comes from this guy.

45:20

But that's not where I got it from. Anyway, it comes from the Bible. Right. So that word itself, it's a common word.

45:26

You can look it up in the dictionary. To have presuppositions means that you just simply assume something beforehand.

45:33

OK, so there's not a reason for us whenever we're engaging with an atheist or an agnostic to prove that God exists.

45:40

You can make a few points about it. I wouldn't say that it's not valuable to have any argumentation at all.

45:47

But there's not a need for you to have to prove first that God exists before you can then tell them where you are a sinner in need of a savior.

45:56

You can still get to the gospel without having to convince them that there is a God and here is what he said.

46:03

Right. And the reason why we believe that is because of what is said in Romans 1 starting in verse 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who, by their unrighteousness, suppress the truth.

46:17

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made.

46:31

So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him.

46:38

But they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. So God is not on trial here.

46:45

There's not a reason for you to have to prove to anyone that God exists. We all inherently know

46:50

God exists. Right. But there are those who suppress the truth with their unrighteousness. So that's simply what presuppositionalism means.

46:58

You're going to come to the conversation with certain presuppositions. Despite whatever this person says, they know that there is a

47:06

God. They know that. Okay. So that's very much in a nutshell. As much as they'll deny it and everything.

47:12

Yeah. So then the second question that Daryl had is, what's the difference between premillennialism, amillennialism, and postmillennialism?

47:20

I'd like to know what camp I believe in, but first I need to know what they all mean. So this all has to do with the position of the millennium.

47:28

We read about the millennium or the thousand -year reign of Christ in Revelation chapter 20.

47:35

So I'm going to give you, there's actually four main end times views. You've mentioned three of them, but one of those is divided into two.

47:43

So in premillennialism, you have dispensational premillennialism and you have historic premillennialism.

47:49

Okay. Yeah. I've heard the historic. And then the, then amillennialism and then postmillennialism.

47:55

So there's your four. Okay. And I'm going off of a pamphlet, pamphlet, kind of a short book that you can get on Amazon and it's called

48:04

Four Views of the End Times. Okay. So if you look. Like the number four? Yeah. The number. Well, no, it's F -O -U -R.

48:09

Okay. But it's spelled out. So you'd have to spell it out to find it on Amazon. Well, I meant not F -O -R.

48:15

Yeah. Right. Not F -O -R views of the end times. Right. F -O -U -R. Okay. The number, but it's spelled out.

48:22

Check. Four views of the end times. We got that? Are we nice and confused now? So Becky and I had already made a comment about the great tribulation, and that's kind of a characteristic of dispensationalism that isn't necessarily shared by historic premillennialism.

48:41

So you have God's work with the church, which is what's going on right now. And then the rapture of the church is going to happen at the beginning of a seven year period of great tribulation.

48:51

And then, but some believe that the rapture will happen in the middle of the great tribulation, and some believe that the rapture will happen at the end of the great tribulation.

48:59

But however you fall on your beliefs pre -mid or post -trib, that all has to do with the system of dispensationalism.

49:07

Okay. So then the second coming of Christ happens at the end of the seven year period of tribulation.

49:12

Then you have the millennial reign of Christ on earth. Then there's the final judgment, and then we're on into eternity.

49:19

So that's kind of the basic dispensational premillennial thought. Okay. I've got to think of my words, make sure

49:27

I'm getting all that. Okay. Here's historic premillennialism. So the idea of historic premillennialism is that we're currently in the church age, then a period of great tribulation is going to happen, or there won't be a seven year period of tribulation at all.

49:41

Okay. So it kind of, I think there are, that can differ among historic premills. All right. Some will believe that it's indistinct period of great tribulation, and others will say that it is a seven year period of tribulation, but the rapture doesn't happen until the end of it.

49:55

Oh, okay. And then at the rapture, which is the second coming of Christ, then we have the millennial reign of Christ on earth.

50:01

And then after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, then we have the eternity. So that's historic premill.

50:07

And it's called historic premill because it's the most common viewpoint of the end times that you'll find throughout church history.

50:15

So that's why it's called that. I did not know that. But then you have millennialism, and sometimes millennialism and post -millennialism can kind of overlap.

50:24

There's some views that they share. The idea in amillennialism is that the thousand year reign of Christ is not a literal thousand year reign of Christ, like just about everything else that's mentioned in the book of Revelation.

50:37

This is apocalyptic literature, so it's figurative. The number 1 ,000, I can't even think of an occasion in scripture where 1 ,000 is literally 1 ,000.

50:46

But somehow we get to the thousand year reign of Christ in Revelation 20, and we're ready to say that that's literally 1 ,000 years.

50:54

So the thousand year reign of Christ is now. Like we're in that reign. The number 1 ,000 is just a large number.

51:01

It's not exactly 1 ,000. It's just a lot of years. So right now, we're in the millennial reign of Christ.

51:09

He is reigning in heaven now. And then the church is the extension of that reign here on earth.

51:16

And we're expanding the kingdom of God through the preaching of the gospel here on earth. As people get saved, they're added to the kingdom.

51:22

That number is growing. And then there's going to come a time, which we don't know the end of that time, but Christ, once the full number of the elect comes in, returns.

51:32

And then his judgment and his saving of those who are left on earth is all one event.

51:40

So it's not a rapture, then a seven -year period of tribulation, and then Christ returns again. His return and the deliverance of the church is all the same thing.

51:51

And I believe that when you read 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, that's what you come away with. Paul is not talking about two separate events.

51:59

He's talking about one event, something that happens all at once. Christ's return, we join him in the air, then we're forever with him in the

52:05

Lord. And done. And done. Right. So then the post -millennial view believes likewise that we're currently in a thousand -year reign of Christ, but that the church is actually making things better here on earth.

52:21

And then once we get to a certain place, then Christ is going to return.

52:27

And then that's going to be eternity. We have the second coming of Christ and the final judgment and everything else.

52:33

So there are ways that I do agree with certain things that post -millennials will say, and there's areas in which

52:40

I don't agree. And likewise, as I said before, there's times when I agree with amillennialism and there's times when I don't agree with it.

52:46

So there's the four main views. And again, you get the basic overview of all of that when you check out that pamphlet, four views on the end times.

52:57

Now, when it comes to dispensationalism, some of those that believe that are John Nelson Darby and C .I.

53:04

Schofield, a couple of names that we had mentioned earlier, but also Chuck Smith, who is the founder of Calvary Chapel, John MacArthur is dispensational,

53:12

Charles Ririe, Norman Geisler and Tim LaHaye, who of course was famous for the Left Behind book series.

53:19

So there's some of your common dispensationalists. As for historic premill, it is claimed that although I've never looked at the church fathers and studied this, but it's claimed that the church fathers held to historic premill.

53:33

So that would include Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and even modern scholars like John Warwick Montgomery and Robert Gundry.

53:42

Also, let's see, Albert Moeller, Mark Dever, I believe, are a couple of other historic premills.

53:50

Amillennialism is a viewpoint that is held by, it's believed, John Calvin and Martin Luther were both amillennialists.

53:57

J .I. Packer, who's a modern amillennialist, James White is amillennial, who

54:04

Daryl had mentioned in that debate. Votie Bauckham is also amillennial. Funny thing is, though, James White and Jeff Durbin were on the same team together.

54:12

Jeff Durbin is a postmillennial, and some other postmillennials include B .B. Warfield, Charles Hodge, Lorraine Bettner, R .C.

54:20

Sproul. Those are some famous postmillennials. Oh, also John Edwards.

54:26

Oh, yeah. Jonathan Edwards was a postmillennial. So yeah, check out that pamphlet if you want kind of a more detailed layout.

54:34

It'll give you some charts and things, probably visual aids might help you to understand those various views of the end times a little bit better.

54:42

It's good to have knowledge of these things. I would just encourage you, Daryl, that you not pick a view based on what you read in a pamphlet, but that you go to the

54:51

Word of God and you test all things according to Scripture and come to a knowledge of these things based on what

54:57

Scripture tells us and not a certain system that we think sounds the best.

55:03

And so, therefore, we're going to adopt that system. Like I said, I came into amillennialism by default, and it's because...

55:11

Because panmillennialism isn't looked very favorably upon. But what does that mean?

55:17

It's not really an end times view. It's that everything's just going to pan out in the end. It's a pun.

55:22

It's a joke. So that's why I'm panmillennialism. But people take it very seriously, so I guess making a joke at that time, they don't find it appropriate.

55:33

Right. I think it's still an important thing to study. And so it's a good question, Daryl. It is definitely a helpful thing to look into.

55:41

And I'd also mentioned earlier in the program Votie Bauckham's teaching on Revelation.

55:47

So that's a good place to go. You can go to www .utt .com, click on links, go down to series, follow

55:53

Votie Bauckham's sermon series on the book of Revelation. I think that would be very helpful for you as well. All right.

55:59

That's going to do it for our program as for this week. Thank you once again. You can send emails to when we understand the text at gmail .com.

56:09

Let's pray. Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for our time together again, and that we can open up your word and study it and come to the knowledge of you as revealed through Jesus Christ and his prophets and apostles who gave us your word, that we might know the character of God through your law, through the redemptive history that you have shared with us in the pages of your scripture, what you're doing through your son, and even the promise of his return, that we will join you forever in glory.

56:43

I pray that this is our hope and peace, that it guides us throughout our day, and that it is through the lens of scripture that we look at all things and evaluate how we should live in this world to the glory and praise of our

56:56

King. And it's in your great name that we pray. Amen. Is that is that wrong with the gift?

58:10

It's fine. OK. All right. I don't know where to put it.

58:20

This is when we understand the text, a daily Bible study in the word of Christ, that we may be his disciples, we may be his disciples taking up our cross daily and following after him.

58:32

Tell all your friends about our ministry, OK? This is when we understand the text, a daily

58:40

Bible study in the word of Christ, that we may be his disciples, taking up our cross daily and following after him.

58:47

Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .tt .com. Here once again is

58:53

Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. I'm pretty tired right now. I'm usually not this tired whenever we do this.

58:59

Yes, I am tired as well. Bless you. Boy. All right.

59:05

Hang on. I can do that again. All right. God bless you.

59:11

I think we have to start this again. OK. Because I had to stop and sneeze.

59:18

I don't know where that came from. And now you're yawning. Yeah. I'm always yawning.

59:24

Are we going to get all of like our face reactions out here?

59:29

Always. And always coughing, too. I always get a tickle whenever I'm down here. You're yawning halfway into the program, not.

59:35

Yeah, that's true. This is my halfway tonight. We got to hustle it on a little bit.