Matt Chandler: The REAL Reason Pastors FAIL | Pastor Reacts

The Danger of Secret Sin and the Need for Accountability

You're going to disappoint them, you're going to destroy this church or this ministry that God's built, you're going to defame the name of Jesus, and then a guy just starts feeling stuck. Now we're going to start taking the steps towards blowing this thing up.

Secret sin has the power.

To absolutely destroy not only entire ministries, but people, families, and churches as well. If someone falls away from the church because their pastor's failed morally, whose fault is that? Is that the person who fell away?

Is that their fault? Or is that the pastor's fault? When you get to that point where you answer to no one except the God of your own making, you're in a dangerous position as a leader. Matt Chandler, senior pastor of Village Church in Dallas, sits with rapper Lecrae and talks about why pastors fail.

Now this is an interesting conversation in light of what happened to Chandler recently. He had to step away from the pulpit for a few months back in 2022 to receive correction by his elders. So from Chandler's experience and knowledge, he's going to talk about why pastors fail, but is his answer my answer?

Let's find out. If you're new here, welcome. My name is Nate Sala, and this is Wise Disciple, where I'm helping you become the effective Christian that you were meant to be. Before I jumped into this ministry, I was a pastor and a Bible teacher at a church in Las Vegas for a number of years, and I'll be relying on those unique skills to examine what we're about to watch.

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The link for that is below. Why do you think, as you're talking about that, because I've stepped on like seven landmines. Oh yeah, me too. But why do you think, and this is interesting to me as you're talking about a lot of this, I don't, I never considered that maybe I wouldn't have listened to someone older, wiser during that season of my life when everything was just working.

Um, but, but as I've gotten older and I've become more broken. Yeah. I'm comfortable being vulnerable. Yeah. I'm comfortable owning my mistakes and owning where I fell short. Why do you think it is difficult for Christian leaders, pastors to walk in that type of vulnerability?

Yeah. Now I have an answer to this question from my vantage point and experience. And I wonder if my answer is Chandler's answer, uh, but let's see what he has to say.

Secret Sin, Growing Influence, and the Pressure to Hide

Well, I think that Christian leaders can start feeling trapped and what I mean by that. And some people who listen to this probably aren't going to appreciate this, but it's fine. It's, I mean, I've been in the game long enough to tell you this is what happens.

Yeah. So they come into ministry and they have, let's just call it a pet lion, some little sin in their life. I'm not trying to downplay the sin. I'm just saying it's not full grown. It's an area of his life he should be working on or she should be working on.

Um, they, they, they shouldn't be, they should be confessing this. They should be putting it to death. They should be putting, you know, but they're not. And then God starts to use them because God's not, God doesn't need you to be all that he's asking you to be for him to flex.

And so God starts using them in profound ways.

So far so good. Okay. I'm tracking this, but notice the necessary component that is missing from this equation. So it's a Chandler talks about a pastor or a ministry leader who is coming up, but they have a secret sin that I suppose would somehow eventually disqualify them from the pastorate if left unchecked.

And now God starts to use them. Okay. But what's missing here in this equation? I've spoken about this before. Let me see where this goes and I'll, I'll come back to this. But they also hadn't put this lion to death.

And now that lion's getting bigger and bigger and bigger, but so is the platform. The platform is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And with the bigger platform, oftentimes, I don't think we can judge.

I don't think we can judge faithfulness by outcomes, but the guys we're talking about here, now you've got a church of 5 ,000. Now you've got a church of 6 ,000. Now, who are you going to tell about this lion?

Well, you can't tell anybody about this line. You can't, because the mistake is that now this job is better than Jesus. Or the, the shame of it now is going to be so much greater than when your church was 300 and, and you, you should have handled this little lion.

You should, it's just a cub. Just take it out and shoot it. Probably not even disqualifying, right? But think about, I'm talking about violence towards sin, right? This is impossible. Leave no provision for the flesh.

Like Paul's like, you don't give it an inch. You don't give it a gasp of air. You choke it out. You drag it out in the street and you murder it.

Put it to death. That's what he says. But why don't they do that though? Right. So, so again, Chandler says, well, now your church is at 6 ,000 and now the pastor can't tell anyone. Why not? Because they have no accountability.

That's the fundamental component that is missing in this equation. When there is no accountability, sin stays secret and secret sin has the power to absolutely destroy not only, uh, entire ministries, but people, families, and churches as well.

That's why accountability is so vital to the pastoral staff, especially the pastor or pastors in leadership, right? I don't know why this isn't said enough, um, or said more. But pastors are not immune from sin.

They sin just like everybody else, but pastors should not, uh, sin the same way that everyone else does in church. What do I mean by that? Take a look at this. Uh, first Timothy chapter three, verse one.

If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach. The house now watch the characteristics, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

You see these sins right here. These are sins that a congregant could be struggling with, right? Coming in every Sunday, sitting under the pastor at the pulpit, but an overseer absolutely should not. The same is true when we get to the qualifications for deacon, uh, a little bit later.

So that's what I mean. Pastors cannot sin exactly the same way that his congregation might. He needs to display the qualities of being someone who is in self-control and is above reproach. Is he perfect?

No, but certainly not someone who will abuse their authority and hurt other people simply because they can't get a grip on certain sins in their life. And, uh, we've seen this, right? As I mentioned, Chandler got into some trouble back in 2022.

He had engaged in direct messaging with a woman on Instagram and had to publicly apologize and step away from the pulpit for a couple of months to receive correction by his elders at the village church.

So, so pastors are not perfect and they definitely still sin, but they are held to a much higher standard.

Accountability, Convictional Leadership, and the King's Table

Put on Christ, put that nonsense to death. Yeah. But what happens is these two things are growing up together and now you're at a place of greater influence than you probably could have imagined. Yeah.

When you were 25, 28, 31, wherever it was when you started. Yeah. And, um, and, and so now you're stuck. Even if you realize, oh man, this is a problem. Like this isn't, oh my, this is an apex predator.

I've had it in my house. Yeah. And the, the shame and pain I'll bring upon my wife and children or the, the fruitfulness that I'm seeing or the disappointment. Yeah. In those, well, I'll call them Joe abs that are around me.

You know, Joe abs, David's guy's like, what hill are we taking? Yeah. Well, what do you want me to fight? Who are we fighting today? Yeah. Um, Joe abs that my, my buddy, uh, Kyle Thompson calls that 3am friend.

Yeah. Everybody's got a 6pm friend. You got that 3am friend. He's the three, Joe abs your 3am friend. I mean, you're going to disappoint them. You're going to destroy this church or this ministry that God's built.

You're going to defame the name of Jesus. And then a guy just starts feeling stuck. And, and oftentimes I don't know if it's conscious or not. Um, now we're going to start taking the steps towards blowing this thing up.

Um, and so whether that's been financial or another woman or.

Financial or another woman. Remind me to tell you what my mentor taught me a long time ago. We'll, we'll, we'll come back to that.

That's, that's interesting. Being ridiculously heavy handed on people. Uh, and I would even want to be careful with that. It's a tough time to be a leader, um, where, you know, there can be all sorts of things that you're accused of that actually might just be leadership.

Right. Uh, that's true. Did you catch that? Let me play that one more time. There can be all sorts of things that you're accused of that actually might just be leadership. Right.

In other words, in today's day and age, you may be accused of doing something inappropriate, like, you know, being unnecessarily harsh or heavy handed with your congregation. When in actuality, you're just administering discipline the way the Bible commands you to.

There is a lot of dysfunction and distrust within the church. And sometimes it rears its head against pastors who are just simply being faithful to God's word. That doesn't explain every situation. Okay.

Um, but certainly that is the case for some. And why is that? Well, because sometimes people are uncharitable in the way that they receive discipline.

That's a really good point. And, um, and, and so then now you're going to blow this thing up because you can't get out of it. Um, and it doesn't make sense because all the shame and killing and it's, it's on the blow up side too.

So that's why I don't think it's prefrontal cortex stuff. Yeah. I just think a guy's looking for a way out and doesn't know how to do it. That's good. But they grew up together. That's been my experience with the guys that I've known that have blown their lives up.

Hey, you.

But again, the only way that becomes a problem is if you somehow enter into a dynamic or you create it yourself as a church planter where there is no accountability for you, or maybe there is accountability, but in name only, you know, and not real accountability where someone or a group of people can call you out and say difficult things to you and, and even remove you from your pastoral role.

If it comes to it. I remember very vividly confronting a pastor at a church a number of years ago. He had abused his authority and I sat with him for an hour. And one of the questions that I asked him was who can fire you?

He was the senior pastor of a pretty big non-denominational church. And he looked at me and he said, God, and that was the wrong answer. When you get to that point where you answer to no one except the God of your own making, you're in a dangerous position as a leader of anything.

So accountability is not a cool option or a nice idea to implement one day. It is fundamental to the pastor, the preacher, the teacher, the leader at all times. If you are a pastor and you do not answer to anyone, you need to go implement that system immediately.

You are in a very dangerous position. You are, you are speaking.

I know this. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's very interesting. I'm just curious from your vantage point, because I know what it's like to be a leader, not a pastor and, and, and to blow something up as a leader is one thing, but like, there's not people waiting on me every Sunday for me to show up and be consistent.

In the season that we're in, there's a lot of skepticism. As far as Christianity is concerned. Yeah. Because of pastors, right? Because of pastors dropping the ball, I would say being human, but obviously, you know, there's a thought process of these, they're more than human, or they at least should have some kind of superhuman structures around them to protect them from their own humanity.

But how do you talk to folks who are like, I don't mess with church because pastors keep dropping the ball? Sure. Like, what do you say to folks like that?

Why Some People Leave Church After a Pastor Fails

Yeah. So that's an interesting question, right? Like if someone falls away from the church because their pastors failed morally, whose fault is that? Is that the person who fell away? Is that their fault?

Or is that the pastor's fault? Actually, I'm curious. What do you think? Let me know in the comments. I'd love to get your thoughts. Yeah, I'll give you my answer in just a moment.

I think it's immediately hypocritical in that they're not choosing any other aspect of their life by that standard. Talk about that. Well, I just think if you're looking at sports and this coach does you dirty and moves from here to here, you don't give up on the sport.

If you show up at the gym and somebody's on the machine you wanted and you ask how many more reps and they pop off and say something ridiculous, you don't go, screw that, I'm not working out anymore. I can't believe these people in the gym.

Gym people are the most hypocrite. I mean, just no one does that.

So while this does explain a number of folks who might protest out loud that they're fed up with pastors and their moral failings, I don't think this takes into account people who have felt like they deeply trusted their shepherd.

And what happens to these kinds of folks who witnessed their pastor fail? Right? That's not merely about receiving bad news, you know, as if you're catching it on TV or something or on social media. This for them feels like betrayal to a lot of people who knew their pastor and thought that they were close with him.

I think Chandler's answer, I think it does explain some situations, but it does not account for these kinds of people, the ones that I'm talking about, who become deeply hurt and affected by their pastor's failures.

So maybe he'll touch on that in a moment. So I hope so.

And even the whole, I don't want to take away from the fact that there are toxic, terrible churches out there. Sure. Most churches are filled with people who are on a various spot on the spectrum of sanctification.

So oftentimes the person that hurt you at a church, they're not the church. They're just a brother or sister that's finding their way. And if you knew their backstory, they might be so far from what they used to be, but you're finding them in this moment of their story.

And so I think so much of it is refusing to be gracious to other people. It's Jonah. I want justice for everybody else, but mercy for me. That's what it reeks of.

And I'm not talking. That's coming from a pastor who's probably seen people leave because of him. You know, I, I can, I can sense a bit of his own experience coming out here in his answer. And, you know, I mean, look, he makes a great point.

Okay. How often do people stomp out of a church? Because at the end of the day, they just refuse to show the kind of humility and graciousness that Jesus describes in the beatitudes, right? It is true.

But there are still many who have been hurt because they felt betrayed by their pastor who likely didn't fail in front of everyone one time, but held on to a secret sin that was being committed multiple times.

While they also got up and preach to the congregation in hypocritical ways, right? Maybe even participated in sin with somebody connected to many in the congregation that elicits feelings of betrayal.

Once all that comes out and that's no small thing. So I asked you before, who's to blame for people who fall away because of pastors, the Bible doesn't clearly give an answer, but there is this statement that comes to mind that gives me pause.

Look at this boy. Thank you so much for watching this video. Did you know that the majority of people who do watch are not subscribed to the channel? If this video is blessing you, would you do me a favor and like, and subscribe to the channel?

It just really helps me to get the word out about this ministry. I greatly appreciate it. James chapter three, verse one, not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man able also to bridle his whole body. And so James goes on to talk about a person's words and how it can do so much damage and is filled with so much evil.

This is in the context of being a teacher. And so I think it's not very difficult to extrapolate that a pastor or a preacher or a teacher is going to be held accountable by God for the things that they say and do and how it affects those that they teach.

That must mean that depending on the circumstances, the answer to who's to blame could really be both. And that means that pastors really need to take seriously how they walk before their congregation.

I think that's what Paul says in first Timothy three, that the overseer, like he talks about the overseer being above reproach and even having a great reputation among outsiders as well. Everyone is watching.

Talking about abuse.

I'm not talking about that stuff. That's a whole nother level of evil. Most of the stuff I'm hearing is not that stuff though. It's just like, yeah, that's people and people are like that. And Christians are being made different.

They're not necessarily different in this moment. They're creatures of their moment in time in history who are being made more like Jesus over an extended period of time. And sanctification isn't up and to the right.

It's more like a coil around along the horizontal plane, which means every Christian I know has regrettable days. Even guys that have been following Jesus for 35 years. They have weak moments. They have regrettable days.

They say things that they wish they could take back. That's everyone. And then when it comes to fallen pastors, I would just say we are talking about such a small group of the overall overall pools. I mean, there are thousands and thousands of pastors who are faithfully shepherding and walking alongside their people right now.

Yeah, that's true.

You know, the age old adage, if it bleeds, it leads is still true in media. And so we're always going to hear about the moral failings of pastors across the country, but we're not going to hear about all the times the pastors faithfully shepherd their congregations every single week and diligently help to heal their hurts and disciple folks and help them grow and mature in the spirit.

That doesn't make interesting headlines. You know, the same thing of pastors is true of teachers, right? It's largely a thankless job, particularly associate pastor or even youth pastor. Much is demanded, but not much is given in return.

So I definitely feel for a lot of pastors who toil every single week. It truly is a calling.

And when you pick these eight over the last two, three years because of their following or because of the size of their church, and you try to lay that tiny sample size across the breadth of Jesus's bride, and I'm just speaking of the Western world.

I mean, I feel like it's unfair. It doesn't matter that it's unfair, but it's most of the guys I know, I even posted about this on Instagram a while back. The guys I know who are faithful are so nervous of being accused of not being faithful right now.

They feel paralyzed. So I'm having to constantly go, don't play down to the cynic. The cynic is going to be the cynic. If you live your life by the judgment of the cynic, you'll never attempt anything for the kingdom of God.

That's good. And so you can't do that. You've got to lead. You've got to lead with conviction. You've got to lead with humility. But if you're always worried that someone's going to accuse you of being controlling, you're never going to do anything.

If you're always living under the fear that someone might accuse you of being heavy-handed, then I don't know how you're going to lead. And so walk in humility, walk in accountability, and then lead with conviction.

Because, ah, thank you. Thank you. He finally said it. Walk in accountability, guys. Love it. Love it. That's what people follow.

Convictional leadership. Not fearful. I hope nobody calls me something mean online. Or, and it's honestly, I'm saying that tongue-in-cheek, but it's actually more serious than that right now. You don't need to be guilty.

You just have to be accused. That's true. That's true. And yeah, here's what I've learned now. 23 years in the game. 30 years overall, 23 at The Village. There's a group of people out there, and they love me, man.

I mean, it don't matter what I do. Like there could be a video came at me clubbing a baby seal, and they would be like, what that seal do to Pastor Matt before they shot that? I need to see the pre-video.

And then there's a group of people over here and they hate me for whatever reason. I'm the problem with evangelicalism, right? White, megachurch, suburban. He's in it for money and power. No matter what I do, that's the lens, right?

Neither of them know me. It's good. Neither of them know me. Good. They don't know me. They don't know the rest. I can't take my cues from either. That's interesting.

I wonder if he means people within his own church. But wait a second, like why would people who hate him attend his church? He's probably referring to his public persona, right? They probably engage with him that way on social media and seeing headlines about him.

That's probably what it is. One of them. I can't. If I'm your guy, man, you've been in my ears for 20 years, bro. Jesus, praise God. You don't know me. And if you think I'm the problem, and I'm in this for money and power and fame, man, then you do not know me.

And so I've learned. A good friend of mine told me that if I was going to survive in this game, I needed what he called King's table. He was referencing King David. And he said, David had these seats around his table that when they were full, he thrived.

And when he lost one, it all came crumbling down.

So he said, accountability, accountability, accountability. I, I, I actually, I like this idea. I've not, I've not heard of the King's table, but I mean, this is great. You know, uh, he mentioned Joab before, right?

Get you a Joab, uh, get you who's who's, who else should be at the table? Get you a Nathan, right? You definitely need a Nathan to tell it like it is. Amen.

That's good. Every leader needs a Joab. By the way, Joab's the easiest chair to fill. If you're a leader, Joab's the, who we fighting today, boss. When we talked about that earlier, like which hill are we taking?

Where are we fighting? I'm in. You need a Nathan, you need an older man. It's like, Hey, you're being stupid. And then you need a Jonathan, a lover of your soul. And this guy, he didn't care about your gifts.

He didn't care about your reach. He didn't care about the Lord's just knit his heart to yours and yours to him. Yeah. And I was told if I'll cultivate that, I'll feel safe all the days of my life. That's good.

And I have worked really hard, maybe especially the last decade to cultivate that where I am fully known by a King's table. I mean, those guys, they get my tax returns. Come on, man. I don't got no secrets, man.

Why? And I can rest in that in a way that I would never find rest if I'm believing what these people say about me or trying to prove these people wrong. That's good, man. And so I've got a crew that I run with.

Most of them have been with me for a long time. Josh Patterson, 20 years, Mesa King, 15 years, Trevor Joy, 15 years. Nick's a newer guy to that table, but just a complete stud. Became fast family. Yeah.

Those are my guys, man. That's good. I don't, I don't, you can bring up anything about me, any story from my life, any, and they could tell you. They know me and I'm going to take my cues from because they have rebuked me.

Yeah. They have moved towards me and gone. We see a gap. We see a gap here. We love you, Matt. We see a gap. Not Pastor Matt, not Pastor Matt. See a gap. Amen.

Amen. That is so good. Extremely wise, you know, absolutely needed. And yet a lot of pastors do not have this in their life. And there is no good reason why they don't. You know, my mentor warned me like years ago, years and years ago.

And I didn't realize it at the time what he was doing, but he was essentially piecing together for me what it looked like to be successful as a pastor and what it looked like to stumble and to fall. And I tried to write down a lot of it, but the big pieces that I remember are, first, our primary calling is to intimacy.

That's what he told me, which, you know, for a lot of us, it hits the ear a little funny at first, right? Especially when you're someone who has been called to be a pastor, you think, okay, my calling is to shepherd God's people.

No, your primary calling is to intimacy. Why? Because ministry is what happens out of the overflow of intimacy with God. You cannot perform the ministry that God has called you to without that overflow.

You can try. You can run uphill and do a lot in your own strength. You can even coast occasionally when it comes to your ministry efforts. But the moment you do that, you're already drifting. And it's only a matter of time before you wander into a ditch.

You need to remember, pastor, teacher, leader, that ministry is what happens out of the overflow of intimacy with God. And so your primary call is to intimacy. The two primary areas where my mentor told me that pastors and ministry leaders fall over and over and over again is money and morals.

So you remember what Chandler said a little bit ago, right? And it always begins the same way with small, seemingly insignificant steps. My mentor's mentor worked at a facility in Georgia that pastors would go to after having a moral failing.

These guys would all say the same thing when they got there. I never thought this would happen to me. You cannot coast for a single day, friends. If you're a pastor, you want to be a pastor. The victories and the failures of the pastor and the Christian travel along the tiniest of details.

Stay vigilant, stay accountable to those at your king's table and stay close and clean to the Lord every single day. That's how it's done. Amen. All right. Well, that was very, very nice. You should definitely watch the whole podcast.

It was a great interview. All right, now it's your turn. Why do you think pastors fail? What causes this failure of obedience and leadership? Let me know in the comments below. And also, when people fall away because of pastors, whose fault is it?

Curious to get your thoughts on that there. As always, if you made it this far, you should definitely join my Patreon community. You can read the Bible with me. We're going over the Gospel of Matthew on Patreon, and that's free for anyone.

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But in the meantime, I'll say bye for now.