Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?

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In 1952, I survived multiple abortion attempts,

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D &C abortion, an instrument abortion, D &C abortion, a vacuum aspiration abortion,

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E &E abortion, a saline infusion abortion that was meant to poison and scald me to death.

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I am the face of choice. I am that choice.

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These are actual human beings who survived abortion procedures when they were still in their mother's wombs.

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These are the eyes, voices, and faces of choice. Choice is not merely a word.

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Choice is a person. Learn their stories. This is

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Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host of Striving for Eternity, Andrew Rappaport.

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We are live, Apologetics Live. That, from what I understand, is a, what you just saw or heard was a commercial that I guess won't be played at the

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Super Bowl. Yeah, that is what my understanding, that was a commercial that, uh, about pro -life commercial talking about choice, the faces of choice.

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Um, and I think their website, I'll double check, I think it is facesofchoice .com. Yep, it's facesofchoice .org.

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So, facesofchoice .org. You can check that out.

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I'll put that in comments for you, but, uh, so that is something you guys could check out.

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Um, very interesting. They won't play that. Hmm, guess they don't like that message of choice when it's not the choice they want.

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Hmm, just thinking. So tonight, we're going to do, before we go to open, uh,

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Q and A, uh, I should introduce myself. I don't know if I did. Sorry. I'm Andrew Rappaport, your host of Apologetics Live.

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Uh, don't know if, uh, Matt Slick's going to be coming in tonight or not. We're not sure.

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He wasn't sure if he could. So, uh, but that doesn't mean I will not give him a hard time.

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I have something, I'm in the process of moving and I found something very interesting and I'm going to just,

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I'll bring it up now since I started with it. Uh, I, I found this, if you guys can see that.

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And if you look on top, it says Matt Slick. I think Matt was going for this target up here in the top, right?

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But you can see for those who are watching the video on YouTube, you can see that, uh, he kind of missed whatever target he was going for.

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Um, and I, I found this in my house as we're packing up and moving and I'm like, why in the world did

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I keep this? And then I found out why, because I found out I saw this one.

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This is the one where I was shooting. Now, keep in mind, Matt goes and shoots often and you can see, well, there's one or two, three, three, maybe four.

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If you want to count this one, four out of like, you know, a dozen shots that hit a target, just a target.

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Uh, then we have this one here, my shot, and you can see the center target that I was going for is kind of, you know, not completely gone, but half gone.

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Just saying Matt shoots every day. And when I shot that, I hadn't shot a rifle for,

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Oh, probably about, uh, 25 years, maybe 30. So, um, so I figured

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I'd give Matt a hard time, whether he's here or not. So, uh, but I am,

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I'm your host, Andrew Rapport at Apologetics Live. This is one of the podcasts you can hear on the Christian podcast community.

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If you're interested in podcasts, we have 20 plus podcasts out there for your listening.

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Uh, you could check out my podcast, The Rapp Report. I have a daily, a weekly, uh, we have this one, we have the, uh,

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Theology Throwdown. So I do about five podcasts. Yikes, that's too much. Uh, this is a ministry of striving for eternity, which is a ministry

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I work for. Tonight's topic. What we are going to do with is the topic. Can you lose your salvation?

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That is the topic that we'll have. And if you would like to come in and either challenge me, disagree with me, maybe even agree with me, whatever, if you want to, you're more than welcome to come on in.

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Um, you just have to go to ApologeticsLive .com, ApologeticsLive .com

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and at Apologetics Live, what you do is, uh, if you go there, there's some instructions to participate and you'll be able to, um, there is some instructions like if, how to, for folks who are watching on Facebook, there's instructions how to get your name to show up.

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You'll see that we will put some comments in for people to see like that one. And, uh, if you're, if you set it up with, um, if you set up your

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Facebook, we can see your name, just that's kind of nicer. Um, so the, uh, so the tonight's topic that we'll deal with is the topic of can you lose your salvation?

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And until people come in and join that we're going to be on the show, then we will, uh,

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I'll just keep working through that, uh, topic of whether you can lose your salvation. I will try to be keeping up with the comments in chat so that I can see what you guys are all saying.

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But the issue of salvation is one where we see this debated quite a bit.

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And you see the issue of whether you can lose your salvation debated often.

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Now there's a key passage that many people go to. And if I'm looking this way, I know it's horrible for camera, but that is where my, my logos is.

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So maybe I could drag the window. Let me try that. Uh, I will try floating the window, see if that works.

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There we go. Hey, now I can kind of look this way while I read a scripture. That's at least a little better. I won't be completely at high level with the camera, but this is a topic of, can someone lose their salvation?

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And there's a key verse that people will go to, and that's in James chapter two. Maybe you're familiar with it.

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Maybe not. Uh, but what I, what we could do is read this and let's see if I can just put this on screen.

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That would be nice. So let's see. All right. I know this doesn't make for good radio, but it would be nice if this works.

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There we go. All right. So now you can read along with me.

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So, uh, we see here, and this is good because now I can highlight and those of you who are watching can see.

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So this is the key verse, uh, that there's, well, two key verses people will go to here.

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One is verse 17. So also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead.

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People look at that, but more often what you end up seeing is that people like to go a little bit further down verse 18.

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They're going to say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works and I will show you my faith by my works.

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But that's not the key that most people go. If you go further down verse 22, you see that I have faith was active along with works and faith was completed by his works.

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So you're, you're getting the sense here in this passage that there's a connection between faith and works, but it is verse 24.

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We want to look at, you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith.

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Hmm. Then the key or the real key, the one that they hone in on is verse 26 for as the body apart from the spirit is dead.

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So also faith apart from works is dead. Hmm. Um, some folks are saying that it sounds off.

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Um, so I don't know. Hmm. You guys let me know if that's, uh, if that's for everybody, but, um, all right.

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Some, some are saying it sounds good to them. So maybe it's just Melissa. All right. We will keep going. So now what

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I wanted you to do, the reason I read this kind of just out of context or not, well, sort of in context, but just reading it in the key in the verses that want to look at the argument that people make here is that if you have faith without having works with the faith, then you are not saved.

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So this becomes a key one for this reason. If salvation is by grace alone, because of the work that Christ did on the cross, then you're not working to earn it.

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So your works can't lose it. Okay. That's going to be one argument that people make. Now there's a couple of different ways we can go with this.

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You're going to have those who are Roman Catholic. They're going to argue that your faith, and they're going to love a passage like this, the way they interpret it.

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They're going to say that this is talking about the fact that saving faith requires works.

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Now, if you're saved by your works, then you can lose your salvation by your works.

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So that becomes a key question to ask, are you saved by your works? So is

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James chapter two specifically really verses 25 and 26 or 24 to 26?

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Is that teaching that we need works for salvation? Well, the one verse that people don't want to read when they try to use this passage to teach works salvation is verse 14, because that's the one that gives the context, and that's the one that demolishes the argument that somehow we need works for salvation according to this passage.

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Okay. So let's read verse 14, and what I want to do is read this whole thing in its context now and see what it's actually saying, and all we have to do is read this.

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We don't need some church to tell us what this means, because a simple reading of it makes it very clear.

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So James chapter 2 verse 14, what good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

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So right off the bat, I hope you noticed something. This is not talking about a person who actually has faith.

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It's someone who says he has faith.

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Ah, that's the key right there. He doesn't actually have faith. He only says that he has faith.

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Notice the difference. So you're not talking about a person who has faith. You're talking about a person who says, professes, claims that he has a faith that he doesn't actually have, and that is what this is talking about.

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This is talking about a person who makes a profession of faith without genuinely having faith.

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So what do we know about salvation? Well, we know, and this is what this passage is actually saying, that somebody who says that they have a saving faith, that Jesus Christ changed them from the inside out, they will have works following that faith.

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That's the natural progression of saving faith. That's what James is talking about. So you have a person who says he's got faith.

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He says he's got faith, but there's no works. The works that should precede faith are not there.

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He asks the question, can that faith save him? What faith? The faith that is profession only.

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The faith that is not based in what God has said. So it's not in scripture. It's the faith that says, oh, well,

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I can say that I'm saved and just want to be saved, but there's no actual evidence of it.

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You see, if someone has saving faith, a genuine faith, which is what James is talking about, if you look through the book of James, James is laying out a dozen plus tests that you can know what genuine faith looks like.

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And as he goes through these, one of those is this one, is works.

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If someone is genuinely saved, they will have the works of salvation. And so this passage is not teaching that you have to have works with salvation, because we can go to Romans and find that that's not true everywhere in the clear readings.

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This is talking about sanctification. So let me stop and explain these terms, because not everyone may be familiar with them.

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We could talk about regeneration. Regeneration is what people think about when they're talking about this faith here.

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Regeneration is that time that someone goes from being an enemy of God to a child of God, when God changes them from one state to another, from being destined to hell, to being adopted into his family, to having eternal life, from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive.

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That's one moment in time. And that happens, for those of us who know

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Christ, in the past. But the moment that happens, there's another thing that's also referred to as faith, also referred to as salvation, which is called sanctification.

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That is the process spoken of here in James chapter 2. That is the process where somebody is doing the works that we would expect to see with a saved person.

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That is the process of being made more and more in the image of Christ. And until the moment we die, and when we die, we're glorified.

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That's also referred to as salvation. So salvation has a past, a present, and a future tense to it.

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Salvation speaks about that time that we were regenerated, that process that we're being sanctified, and then it's finalized in our glorification.

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That is all faith, and that is all salvation. So the question you have to ask is, which faith or which salvation are we discussing?

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Well, in this, we're clearly talking about sanctification. Why? Well, first off, my brothers, he's speaking to fellow believers.

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That's one key. But the real key is the question he's looking to answer. Verses 14 to 26 is all answering one question.

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What is that question? If a person says he has faith but does not have works, can that faith save him?

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That's the question. Can a faith that doesn't have works with it?

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In other words, someone makes the profession, but there's no evidence. Does that faith save him? No.

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That's just a proclamation, and it does nothing for the person. So when we look at this, we have to realize that when people try to argue, first off, that you have works, that if you're saved by works, then the issue is you can lose your salvation because of those same works.

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So that is the first and easier argument to counter, because Scripture is quite clear that you're not saved by works.

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In fact, and if there's anyone who would like to come in and challenge me on these things, this is a live show where we try to answer your questions.

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So if you want to join in and challenge or ask questions on this, please go to ApologeticsLive .com, and that's the way to join and offer whatever challenges you may have.

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But as we look at this, the thing is that we have a saving faith in Scripture is taught to be by faith alone in what

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Christ did alone. Now, every single man -made religion has works component to it, every one, because that's what humans do.

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They add their own effort to things. They want to claim their own ability. And so what you end up seeing there is you end up seeing that all you have to do objectively is look at any world religion that adds human effort in any capacity, and you now know it's a false religion.

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All right? It's just that simple. And so Bill is in here asking, where's traditional

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Catholic at? He's sitting in the backstage, and he's going to keep sitting there.

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So sorry, Bill, traditional Catholic, or traditional Catholic actually, isn't allowed on the show anymore till he repents from the lies he tells.

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So I just figured I'd let Bill know that. So back to the issue that we're seeing, that what you see is that if God gets 100 % of the glory in our salvation, that's a divine religion.

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A man -made religion is going to add human effort. That's why people will turn to this passage, and they're going to look at this and say, oh, see, this is teaching a work salvation.

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A problem with that argumentation is the fact that when you argue that way, you have to realize that this is something that is man -made if you have human effort.

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You have a false religion right off the bat. So traditional

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Catholic just left the group or the backstage. So I guess he realized we're not going to let him air his lies.

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So if any other Catholics would like to come in and try to make an attempt to deny what

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Scripture says, that's fine. Let's deal with the other passage, because there are those who say that we're saved by faith, but we can lose our salvation by works.

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And so before I get to that, though, we'll answer a question that was asked on Twitter here by JC Shiver.

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What are considered works? Well, that's easy, JC. What would be considered works would be things like the fruit of the

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Spirit, love. These would be the works that we would expect to see. We'd expect to see what you see there in Galatians chapter 5.

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And it is as we see, but the fruit of the

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Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self -control.

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Those are some things that we would see as those works. All right. So you should be seeing that we're made more in the image of Christ.

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In other words, those works would be moving away from pride, away from selfishness, and moving toward Christ -likeness.

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Okay. Now, as people try to argue that you can be saved through faith, yet maintain your salvation.

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Now, let's be fair, because that's the way they're going to say it. There's people who say that people that say that you can lose your salvation always say that it's a works -based system.

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That's not exactly true. There are those who argue that they got saved by grace, but they have to maintain it by works.

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Now, we have passages in Romans chapter 8 seem very clear. As we look at that, it seems that it's clear that you cannot lose your salvation, because what can separate you from the love of Christ?

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And he gives a whole litany of things, and the answer is nothing. Nothing can separate you from the love of Christ.

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Now, if nothing can separate you from the love of Christ, but your works can,

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God says he will never let us go. And so the argument that is made here, and we want to make sure that when people make arguments, we're fair with their arguments, because if you attack a straw man, then you're really not attacking their real argument.

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If you have to use a straw man argument, that means that your argument is so weak, you can't defend it.

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You should be able to defend the strongest argument if you have the truth. So, I want to make sure

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I have their arguments correct. So, when Romans 8 says, therefore there is now no condemnation for those who earn

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Christ, if we can earn our salvation by grace, but maintain it by works, then our works would be causing us condemnation when we fall, right?

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And so then we would, because of our works, that we're not maintaining that salvation, then we would now be under condemnation again.

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So, then they would say, well, that's because we're not in Christ. And so, what we have is to see that he ends up saying, what can separate us from the love of Christ?

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Nothing. So, people will say, well, you see, you're not separating, God's not separating you from him.

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You're separating yourself. Now, think about that. If God is saying that he will save us, that he will keep us, but we think we could lose that, if we think about that, it kind of makes us sound like we're stronger than God, doesn't it?

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Yeah, that's exactly right. That's be lost, then we would have to be stronger than God to overcome what he says he's going to hold on to.

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Now, the thinking of this is that we are saved by grace, but we do something for a long enough time, maybe it's something severe, and in that process, we're lost, okay?

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Now, some of the passages they're going to go to is, let me bring up Hebrews 6, and I'll put this up on screen so we could see that.

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All right. So, as we look at this, therefore, let us leave the elementary doctrines of Christ and go on to maturity, right?

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And so, he's talking about elementary things at this point, and I just want, for context's sake, that we see that.

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Not laying again a foundation of repentance. So, what is he saying here?

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Whatever he's addressing here in Hebrews 6, because this is, I think, one of the ones that most people will go to as their strongest argument, and to say that we can lose our salvation, because this passage at a cursory reading can seem that way.

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That's right, because some people will read it that way. Let's see what it says, and let's work through this.

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Therefore, let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity.

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So, the writer of Hebrews wants us to go from elementary doctrines to maturity, to more serious doctrines, to more complex doctrines.

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Not the simple, but the deeper in understanding. Laying, again, a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith toward God, and the instruction about washings.

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So, what is he dealing with? He's dealing with the issue of remember, he's writing to Hebrews, so it's the ceremonial washings that they do, the laying on hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

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And this we all do if God permits. Now, here's where we get into the part.

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For it is impossible in the case of those who have been enlightened, who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have shared in the

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Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucified once again, the son of God, to their own harm, and holding him up for contempt.

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Now, by the way, that last part I should mention for those who are Catholic and watching, what do they argue in transubstantiation?

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That Christ is dying over and over and over again. What that verse just says, he doesn't do, right?

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So, there you just have transubstantiation blown out of the water by Scripture. You have to read it.

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Now, what the real key here is, what does it mean when it says those who had been enlightened, those who tasted of the heavenly gift, and shared in the

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Holy Spirit? That's the key. Now, that seems to be speaking of those who are saved, and that is an easy way to read that.

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Now, a couple things. Hebrews is a complex book. It's a difficult book to interpret, and therefore, whenever you have a conflict with a book like Hebrews or Revelation, you always want to look at the rest of Scripture to see what it clearly teaches, because a principle of hermeneutics is that you interpret the difficult passages by the simple passages.

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This is a difficult, so we would look at the simple passages, and all the other passages don't say you can lose your salvation.

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However, what you do see here is anybody that is in this category, whoever this is speaking of, who tasted of the

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Holy Spirit, whoever that is, it is impossible. Do you see that word?

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Impossible. They cannot gain it again.

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So, if this is a state where people who try to argue this passage is showing that you can lose your salvation, then that means you can never get saved again, ever.

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It's impossible. I point that out for this reason. So many people want to use this passage to argue that we could lose our salvation, and that's not what this is teaching, because the issue that you have at stake here, first off, it's dealing with saying that it's impossible.

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See, the idea that you can get saved, lose your salvation, gain your salvation, lose your salvation, can't happen.

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So, who are these people? Well, it's the very same people spoken of in the parable of soils.

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You have a believer, you have a non -believer, and you have two hypocrites, two people that taste of salvation.

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This is your church attender that doesn't believe in Christ. This is the same person that we saw in James 2, who makes a profession of faith, but doesn't have it.

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And we would look at their works and say, nope, doesn't have it. So, what you end up seeing is that this here would be arguing that if it's speaking of losing your salvation, then you can never get saved again.

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Now, there are some people who argue that. For those who argue that you can get saved, lose it, and get saved, and lose it, and every other week they're getting saved again.

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Well, this is talking about those who attend church, who sit in church, they've participated with everything, and yet they walk away.

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We would know this as apostasy. We have that author, oh, all right, someone in the chat will give me his name because I forgot it.

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But I want to say Evans, I know it's not him. But anyway, when you have someone like that, who walks away from the faith, he tasted it.

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He grew up in church, was in good churches, but guess what?

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He tasted of it, he had the blessings of it. Harris, thank you, thank you for that.

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Harris. And so, Joshua Harris. So, what you end up seeing with that is this is a guy who is what

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Hebrews 6 is talking about. He's denying Christ. And so, this is a person who's gone.

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But guess what? They were never a believer in the first place. And so, as we look at this,

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I just want you to see that these are the arguments that are made.

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Before I jump into why you can't lose your salvation, what I'm trying to do is give the arguments that they would make. The argument would be also that some would say, well, you maintain it.

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What about all the passages that speak about overcoming, that those who overcome, those who persevere, things like this, saying that if you somehow stop persevering, you'll lose your salvation.

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Well, this is an issue of God having to give language where we can't comprehend.

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When we have this issue, what I want to do, and this is what you must do with this doctrine, you need to take a step back and understand what regeneration actually is.

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Okay? So, there's two attributes of God that are going to come into place here for our understanding of these things.

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One is going to be that God is eternal. Now, that means that God is outside of time.

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He never had a beginning. He never had an end. He just always was. So, as we look at that, we realize that God is eternal means

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God sees, and we can't wrap our mind around this, but everything's an eternal now to Him.

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So, if you think about it, God sees everything that happened in history, everything happening today, and everything that will happen, and it's all the same eternal now to Him.

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So, there's nothing that He doesn't know because of time.

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We will often talk about salvation in context of time, being saved before that God elected us before the foundation of time.

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What does that mean? That you have nothing to do with salvation because God knew it. God did it before He created time, but yet He's outside of that time.

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The other attribute is omniscience. That is that God is all -knowing, and what that means is that God didn't learn anything.

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He just knows everything. You and I cannot comprehend that, okay? But these two attributes of God are very important when we talk about this doctrine of salvation.

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Why? Okay, this is why. What we end up seeing with this doctrine is that if God knows everything, doesn't observe it, knows it, when was the punishment of sin paid for?

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Well, the answer is at the cross. Now, if it was paid at the cross, and we see that in Colossians, so if it was paid at the cross, then every sin that you and I ever did is future to the cross.

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It's future to the payment. Think about that.

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Everything, every sin you've committed in the past, the ones that are still future to you, they're all after the cross.

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2 ,000 years, unless you're really, really, really old, every sin you ever committed, the first sin you ever committed was also after the cross.

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When it was paid for. God being an eternal being, decreed who he would save, not based on time and not based on observation.

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He did it because of his own desire to do so. And because he's an eternal being, that salvation was done back then.

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Even though it was paid, every sin in Old Testament was future, the cross was future to that, but the cross is past to us.

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So what you end up seeing there, and this is why you have to put this in this perspective, is that if every sin was at the cross, what sin did you commit that God did not know about at the cross when he paid for it?

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None. He knows all of them. He's omniscient. You see, so the fact that you look at the attributes of God, and this is what you must do.

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When you study theology, you must go to the attributes of God. Oh, this is really funny.

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Okay, we'll be distracted. I'm going to put John in here in a bit, but Catholic traditionalist says, striving for eternity, notice everyone that Rappaport is censoring me from challenging his unbiblical false

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OSAS, Protestant belief, and that stands for once saved, always saved, because that's because he knows

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I'd easily refute him by using scripture. Well, this is the problem.

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Traditional Catholic can't use scripture. He's not allowed, because if he does, then he's interpreting, and he would say that we don't have that right.

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Only the magisterium do, and unless he's the magisterium, sorry, you can't use scripture. You have to give us what the magisterium tells you.

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Why is he not allowed in here? For a very simple reason. He comes in, used to come in, I should say, week after week, and ask people the same question, and then every week say, no one can answer my question.

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Everyone answers his question week after week after week. He ignores it.

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He also doesn't stay on topic, but the real reason why he got banned, and you know, it's real simple why he got banned.

38:47

He lied. He hasn't repented of that. That's why. Now, if he wants to repent, well, maybe we could deal with that, but the reality is it's my show, not his.

38:58

I can censor you if you're going to be a jerk, and you are, so we don't choose to have you on.

39:07

Yes, I know I'll bring John in. I know John will probably want to laugh at traditional Catholic, but he doesn't offer the best arguments and just says the same thing over and over and over, so if I remember correctly, his name is

39:23

Robert, so you got to love guys that can't give their real names, by the way. They got to hide behind pseudonyms and then say everyone's censoring them.

39:32

Oh, poor little me. So John, what questions or challenges or comments do you have tonight?

39:39

Well, you pretty much already touched upon it, I believe, but I mean,

39:46

I've always wondered about the whole thing about those who become apostate, so in order for one to become apostate, you have to first become a believer, so would that essentially be something where it would fall under the category of this person was saved, and then he lost his salvation, or would that be another category as far as did somebody,

40:17

I mean, I don't know. This is something I've always kind of wondered about, so. Try to reword your question, maybe.

40:27

Okay, so okay, let's go through timeline. Somebody becomes saved, right, and then sometime throughout the future, they become apostate, so would that mean that they lost their salvation, or would that just mean that God already knew all along that this person wasn't dead?

40:54

It's a tough one. Okay, so yeah, no, it's actually not a tough one.

41:01

The issue is that this goes back to the attributes of God, like I was saying, right?

41:08

There is no time frame for God. Right. He's omniscient.

41:15

He knows who he's gonna save, and he knew it before we were born.

41:21

That's what it means in Ephesians, when it says, you know, Ephesians, so many people cringe at this passage, because they just don't like it, when it says that God elected before the foundation of time, right?

41:35

Right. What does that mean? It means you had nothing to do with it. Right. So it's not that it surprised him, right, and this is, when it comes to losing your salvation, this is why

41:48

I say this is such a big thing to focus on, is the attributes of God.

41:54

If you're focusing on the attributes of God, you realize that your theology must be consistent with his attributes, right?

42:04

Because your theology is a study of him. So all of the proper doctrines are going to come out of the proper attributes.

42:13

You know, you can't have a conflict. If you have someone that can get saved and lose it, okay, when

42:22

God saved them at the cross, there must have been something he didn't know, right?

42:30

Right. When he declares there's no more condemnation, you know, someone's saying, speaking about just like Judas, and Judas is a great example.

42:42

People might think Judas was someone who lost his salvation, except for one thing,

42:50

Jesus predicted. Well, he wasn't saved, and Jesus predicted what he was going to do. He calls him the son of perdition.

42:57

So that didn't surprise Jesus. I mean, nothing we do surprises

43:03

Jesus, you know? So I don't think that it's like God didn't know.

43:13

God knows what sins we're going to commit tomorrow. He's already aware of it.

43:19

So how could he declare someone saved, say that there's no condemnation, say that he won't, he's not going to let them go, but somehow we can leave him?

43:36

That would be saying that he didn't know what we were going to do. Right.

43:44

So Bill's asking how to join. So Bill, the easy way to join, there's a ticker going down there at the bottom that explains it, but all you have to do is go to apologeticslive .com,

43:55

apologeticslive .com, and on there is the link to join. So if you're watching on apologeticslive .com,

44:04

that's, we always keep the link there, so you can always join. So if you want to join, just go to apologeticslive .com.

44:11

There's instructions there, how to join StreamYard, so that it says to participate, click this link.

44:16

If you have trouble, there is a, there are some instructions. StreamYard works on most things.

44:22

I know there's some issue with the, I think it's iPhones with Safari, but I think some of them may not.

44:32

Yeah, I was going to say that it doesn't matter if you're on your laptop, your PC or your phone, you should be able to jump right in.

44:39

I'm on my phone right now. Yeah, and I should, I'm trying to look up the name of the

44:44

Catholic I've been. John, you and I are, you know, admins in a group, the

44:50

Christian Apologetics Group, and there was a guy, I don't know if you saw it, that I ended up booting, who was,

44:58

I gave him the choice, and there's, you know, he was, when

45:03

I say trolling, seriously trolling me, he was, he actually, once I, once we booted him from the group for being a troll, he then went to found another group he and I were in, his name was

45:17

Dan something, he was supposed to come in here and challenge me on, on Catholicism, but, but he was calling our group anti -Christian, anti -Catholic.

45:29

I said, it's not a Catholic group. He goes, any Christian apologetic group is by definition anti -Catholic.

45:35

So I said, oh, I guess that makes you anti -Christian, because we're doing

45:41

Christian apologetics, you know, but he was supposed to come on, he actually, he actually went into groups where he and I both were and started, like, blasting me there, so I kept reporting him for harassment, and then he started contacting me privately, and I'm like, dude, just come on, you know, he's telling me

46:00

I'm running from him. I'm running because I'm so scared of all these Catholics, I'm so scared of all of them. Here I am.

46:08

You know, Bill said he invited a whole bunch of Catholics from some groups. He doesn't think they'll show up. No, of course not. Where are they?

46:14

I just see you and I in here right now, John. Where are all those Catholics? Not here.

46:24

So someone is saying, FilmBay on YouTube says, is the

46:31

Vatican a secular cult? Recent Forbes and World Factbook estimated the

46:37

Vatican net worth of $120 billion, most likely higher. I would think that it is higher.

46:46

But is it a secular cult? No, I would say it's a Christian cult.

46:53

It is a cult. So let me define that for folks. And I know I could ask

46:58

John, because he's got my book, What Do They Believe Memorized, and he knows the five points of a cult, but I don't want to embarrass him and put him on the track.

47:09

But I'll help you out a little bit as he's running to get his copy of my book.

47:15

So in my book, What Do They Believe, which you can buy at strivingforeturning .org, go to the store.

47:21

But there's five aspects of a cult, because a lot of people have trouble with what defines a cult.

47:27

People throw that term out. But you have to have a good definition. And now that John has got his copy of my book, he's looking up in the introductory chapter, because he wants to find the five points that define a cult.

47:40

And I'll let you guys figure out whether Catholicism is, was, or could be a cult.

47:47

One, the first is that you'll see that a cult is going to have an authority, whether it be a personal organization, that says that they alone can interpret

48:05

Scripture. Okay, does the Roman Catholic Church have an authority, they say, that can, only that authority can interpret

48:15

Scripture. Hmm, yeah, the magisterium. Okay, so that's one.

48:20

The second one is Scripture twisting. Well, if we had traditional

48:27

Catholic back in here, you know, you would see, oh,

48:33

I didn't see what you flipped up there for a second there, John. Oh, you have a copy of my book.

48:38

So you're showing that you have it in your hands. When you're rocking back and forth, that's driving me crazy in this, your video there.

48:46

So, so now he's off camera. So the second thing is

48:52

Scripture twisting. And if I had traditional Catholic back in here, or you go back to the episodes where he used to be here, you would see that, you would see that him twisting

49:00

Scripture. Why? Because that's what the Catholics do. Because once they have their external source to interpret Scripture, which by definition, by the way, makes that source greater than Scripture, not equal to Scripture, because only that source can interpret

49:13

Scripture. So Scripture alone doesn't do you anything. You need that source.

49:20

So when the Catholic Church says that the magisterium is equal in authority to Scripture, it can't be.

49:28

All right. So the, so someone's asking for me to share, saying, you need to the five points of a cult in the

49:41

Christian Apologetics group. Good stuff. You can share it. It's at strivingforeturning .org.

49:48

We have, we have it there. You can grab it and share it, but I will try to do that. So the third point, so we have authoritarianism.

49:58

Actually what John is doing, he's testing to see how good I remember the five points of a cult. That's what he's really doing.

50:04

That's why he got my book. That's exactly it. Yeah. Authoritarianism. We have, and so we'll have to see,

50:11

John, if I get in the right order. We have Scripture twisting. You then have, you then have in the order of this one,

50:18

I don't know if I have isolationism or exclusivism next, but I'll go with the exclusivism.

50:25

The third thing you'll see in a cult is exclusivism, where they will teach that they alone have proper doctrine.

50:32

They'll say that only they can interpret. Therefore, if you leave the organization, you don't have the truth anymore.

50:39

So what they do there is say they have an exclusive right to the truth. Does the

50:45

Catholic Church claim that? Yeah, all the way up until Vatican II. That's the irony with traditional

50:50

Catholic, the guy, Robert, who was in here. He actually believes that that's when the, well, I guess he doesn't believe the church ended, but somehow the

50:58

Catholic Church stopped being the church because they didn't like what Vatican II did. Authoritarian, right?

51:04

Yeah. They're no longer authority. Correct. Which is kind of strange because the

51:10

Catholic Church is the one who did Vatican II. So if you can't trust Vatican II, how can you trust anything else they did?

51:17

Their authority has decided that, right? So what you see is that they always taught before Vatican II that you could not have salvation outside of the

51:27

Catholic Church. So they have exclusivism. The exclusivism leads to isolationism.

51:34

Isolationism where people don't associate with people outside of the group. You stay within the group.

51:41

That was very common in the middle ages. It was very common in certain parts, even today in South America.

51:50

In Western countries, you don't see that as much, but you still do see that isolationism where they stick only to their own and they stay in a group.

52:02

Now, what you see with most cults, there's going to be the love bombing. There's going to be, you're going to have that art, where people feel that close relationship to people.

52:13

You think about like Mormons or people like that. What they do is they use this exclusivity of the truth to get people to be together.

52:21

And what that does is it's a controlling thing. If people leave, they feel like they're missing something.

52:28

And that brings them back into the fold a lot of times. Because when you have the cults that do the love bombing, when people leave that, they lose that emotional feeling and that becomes a problem for them.

52:39

So - I'm reminded of, you know, the funny thing is I was just doing some more research on Scientology.

52:47

And that's very much the same situation where they don't do so much of the love bombing like Bethel does.

52:55

But what they do is give you a lot of affirmations, a lot of - to make you feel good in a very positive way, saying that, you know, you know, they just give you a lot of compliments or something like that.

53:10

And so it's quite the - it's very much along the parallels of a lot of the other cults.

53:19

But they do it a little bit of a different way where it's not so much touchy -feely, like Bethel does or something like that.

53:28

But you know, it's very much - I mean, you see a lot of this in Scientology, actually.

53:35

It's very funny how that - a lot of this stuff - But what every cult is gearing toward is control. That's what these are about.

53:42

They are the only ones that can tell you what the truth is. They're the only ones who have that exclusive truth.

53:53

And therefore, if you leave them, you're outside of the truth. That's the way people are taught.

53:59

That's why when you have people that come out of Mormonism, they usually become atheists. Why? Because they were told that they're the only truth.

54:07

The Bible can't be trusted. You need the Mormon's apostles. And then you start realizing they're not really apostles and prophets, and it's all fake.

54:17

And so you think there's nothing real. Okay? So it's all about control. And they do that in several different ways.

54:25

But that's the answer to the question, is

54:32

Catholics a cult? This is great.

54:40

So here we go. John Malone says, Andrew Rappaport does the opposite of love bombing, at least.

54:47

To me, at least. I read that, too. That's great. For folks that don't know, John and I go to church.

54:54

I actually invited him to come to my church just so I could abuse him. I mean, I think it was so that he could get good teaching and mature in his spiritual growth.

55:05

Bill says all cults have an organization that interprets scriptures. Not always, Bill. Sometimes they have people, an individual that is the only one that can interpret scripture.

55:17

So it could be a person or an organization. So Catholics have the authoritarianism.

55:24

They have the scripture twisting. They have the exclusivity. And they have the isolationism.

55:30

The fifth one, I mean, is harm can come in several different ways.

55:36

It can come as emotional, physical, spiritual harm. Now, yes, you can make the argument that, well, all false religions do spiritual harm.

55:44

Yeah. Okay. That is true. But that's so broad that it ends up not being helpful.

55:54

What we end up seeing, though, is you do have the Catholics that teach in not so much in Western countries anymore, not as much as Vatican II, but they would practice where if you are against the

56:09

Catholic Church, you should be put out and no one talk to you anymore.

56:16

What they do in the Middle Ages, they killed people. Right. What do they do to Jan Hus?

56:22

Well, he started teaching. Well, we got to look at what the Bible says and the Bible is disagreeing with the church.

56:28

The Bible is right and the church is wrong. So they killed them. I would say that's harm. So I would say that the

56:36

Catholic Church was clearly a cult in the Middle Ages and in some parts of the world today.

56:44

But is it ultimately a cult everywhere? You can make an argument that it's not everywhere. Like in America, you're not having the isolationism.

56:52

You're not having the harm as much, maybe in some places you might. But what you do see is you can't deny the history that it had of teaching the exclusive right to be interpreting scripture.

57:08

One of the other things you'll always see with a cult that's not in my book is, son, if I end up adding, if I do a third edition of the book,

57:18

I'll add this in. But under the scripture twisting, it might fit under there, be a sixth argument.

57:25

But one thing you'll see with cults is a lack of integrity with language. You'll see that very often with a cult.

57:33

They don't want to have clear language. They want to be trying to be nuanced with their language so that they can twist the scriptures.

57:44

So they can take something of scripture and make it sound like something they're saying that's unbiblical actually is biblical.

57:51

That's what they do a lot. So let's see, question from Ethan.

57:58

And Ethan, you should just come in and ask your question. We prefer it when people come in and ask their questions because, well, that's way more fun.

58:09

But go to ApologeticsLive .com. Any Thursday night, join us, challenge us, ask us questions.

58:16

So Ethan's question is, why shouldn't a church play music from Bethel or Hillsong beyond the fact that it would be supporting

58:24

Bethel and Hillsong? So what he means by supporting, I think, and Ethan can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he means because of the fact that when you play this music, you're actually paying them, you're supposed to be paying them for the use of the music, even if you use the

58:41

CCLI licensing, you're supposed to take that, you're supposed to report which songs you played in church, and then part of your licensing is supposed to go to pay those people.

58:57

So that's the plan, that's the way they do that licensing that's in there that you're supposed to pay that.

59:03

Now, why shouldn't you do it? Well, so Bethel music,

59:09

Bethel and Hillsong are two cults. They are other types of Christian cults, they teach false doctrines, and because of that, you have to understand that people will say, but some of their music is good.

59:23

Not all of it, but some of it's good, some of it's heretical. But can we just play the good stuff? Now, that argument can sometimes work.

59:32

There is sometimes where there's an association with things. Am I going to play something from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir?

59:41

Probably not. Now, they'll sing Amazing Grace, which is amazing to think about, because they don't believe in grace.

59:49

They believe in Second Nephi, it says that you can have grace after all you could do.

59:57

So, yeah. But what you end up seeing is that when you look at Hillsong, you look at Bethel, they say that they use the music to bring people in.

01:00:07

That is their evangelism tool. That is the tool that they use to bring people into their cult.

01:00:13

They use the music. That's the reason you should never play Bethel music or Hillsong in your church, because that is what they're using as a hook to bring people in.

01:00:25

They want that music to be the thing that people like, and they come in because of that, and then they got you.

01:00:33

So, if you play those songs and people like the songs, you play the biblical ones. The fact that it was played in your church, you're giving it a knowing or unknowing endorsement, because now people go, well, if they played it in church,

01:00:49

I can trust it. They go out, listen to some more stuff from Bethel, go checking up. I love the Bethel.

01:00:55

And so, they're drilling Bethel and Hillsong songs into their head all day long.

01:01:02

And that will have an effect where they start thinking about that, or they start checking out Bethel and start seeing what it says and what they teach and then start following that stuff because they use the music because they're focused on creating emotional people, and that's going to affect the emotions.

01:01:21

By the way, does Bethel do harm? Well, there's a woman loosely associated with my church that I attend.

01:01:32

It's a new church plant out in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, and there is someone who is in that area now,

01:01:41

I don't know if she attends or is trying to attend the Ladies Bible Studies, but the thing is, is she used to be part of Bethel.

01:01:50

She was a volunteer for Bill Johnson. So, right up to the top, she got cancer and she had treatment.

01:02:03

Her cancer was 100 % treatable because they caught it early.

01:02:10

She's like early 20s. She just got married. Yeah. Talked to her pastor.

01:02:16

What did he tell her to do? Just have faith. Well, she listened to her pastor,

01:02:22

Bill Johnson. She stopped going for cancer treatment. She prayed, and the cancer spread throughout her entire body, and she left

01:02:32

Redding, California to come to Pennsylvania so her parents could take care of her in her last days.

01:02:42

She's dying, and she may already be. I don't know. This is the harm that this cult does.

01:02:49

Do you think Bill Johnson cares? No. How do I know that? When she asked Bill Johnson, what about this?

01:02:56

I mean, the cancer's spreading. I don't know. That was his answer. I don't know.

01:03:04

He doesn't care, but the reality is you should never trust a faith healer wearing glasses. Just look at him preach every

01:03:11

Sunday. He's got glasses. That's where you say, physician, heal thyself.

01:03:18

All right. So, let's see what Ethan says. Ethan says, I've gone to my elders about it, and they said that if they teach well, then when they listen to Bethel sermons, they would be like, this isn't right.

01:03:36

Well, Ethan, here's a question you can ask your pastors. Would it be okay to teach from the

01:03:42

Book of Mormon those passages that are right? Not the whole Book of Mormon.

01:03:48

It's not all wrong. There's parts of the Book of Mormon because a lot of it's from the Bible, but there are things that we could say, look, broken clock's right twice a day.

01:03:55

Can we look at those passages in the Book of Mormon and teach them if they happen to align with scripture?

01:04:03

Should we quote it and say, so today we're going to be reading from 2 Nephi. I mean, just ask them if they want to do that, because that's going to help them to maybe see what's going on.

01:04:17

What you have here, Ethan, is they're trying to say, well, we just like the songs. We don't mind if there's some error.

01:04:24

We think that people will be discerning and figure it out. Then they're not shepherds, if that's going to be their argument, because the shepherds are to protect the flock, not introduce poison into the flock and say, we think he can handle it.

01:04:40

Okay, that's not shepherding. If you want, Ethan, you can have your pastors give me a call.

01:04:47

I'll be happy to try to sit down, talk with them, explain why Hillsong is so dangerous and why, you know, yeah, they should be teaching the truth, but not everyone's going to be at the same level, and so you're introducing things that some may not be able to handle yet, unless the church is all old and mature and no one's, you know, they're all spiritually mature, there's no one, no new believers, and then there's a different problem in that church, because it's not healthy, because it doesn't sound like it'd be going out and evangelizing and bringing new people in, so not everyone's going to be discerning.

01:05:22

Some might be, but everyone won't be, and so that would, I would think that's a problem with the argument they're making.

01:05:29

If they teach the truth, people go, well, then that's not right. Will they do that with other things?

01:05:35

Will they do that with the Book of Mormon? You know, will they do that with Jesus Calling?

01:05:45

Yeah, that's a good one. Well, they might do it with Jesus Calling. That's a popular bestseller, and for folks that don't know,

01:05:52

I should really grab my copy and read from it, but if you read the introduction of Jesus Calling, the woman who writes it says she goes into a state where the

01:06:02

Spirit is writing through her. It's not her. That's dangerous. So she's basically saying, because the fact that there's things in that book that contradict

01:06:12

Scripture that can't be from God, like she says, that the Holy Spirit takes over and he's writing it, so she is claiming that's inspired

01:06:20

Scripture. You realize that? In Jesus Calling, she's saying that this is the

01:06:27

Holy Spirit taking over her body, and she's just the pen, and he's writing. Well, then that's

01:06:33

Scripture. Speaking of that, I haven't showed this yet. I got this.

01:06:39

John, you'll love this. I got this nice thing in the mail.

01:06:46

It says it's a three -ring binder. Let me see how many pages this is.

01:06:53

It's like 160 -some pages. 165 pages.

01:07:00

I got it from Kevin Green. I don't know who Kevin Green is, but Kevin Green sent this to me, and it says refutations from, it's supposed to,

01:07:08

I guess, say Yahweh through his, and then you can't really read this. You see how big those letters are.

01:07:14

They're like 28, 32 -point font, and then down here, you can barely read that word.

01:07:21

Even on eye test, you would never be able to read that. Yeah, that small print in maybe six -point font says prophet.

01:07:28

So, refutations from Yahweh through his prophet, May 7, 2016 AD. There are many witnesses.

01:07:37

Beware. Now, I want to show you something. This is literally the red letters.

01:07:43

So, this is a red -letter Bible, dude. Look at that. Red -letter. How do I know he thinks it's scripture?

01:07:49

Because it gives a statement that says, I, the sovereign Lord, your God, have spoken.

01:07:55

And it says that probably about a hundred times throughout this book.

01:08:01

But it's purposely red letter. Why? Because look at this. There's about a page that's black lettering.

01:08:09

So, I guess, this is the words of God, and down here, that's just the word of this prophet,

01:08:15

I guess. So, he purposely did everything in red. It's really interesting.

01:08:21

So, this must be scripture. And it was kind of interesting. He has messages to everyone.

01:08:28

The Jewish people, they're wicked, according to this. But the

01:08:34

Muslims are pretty good. They're not far from the kingdom. So, I wonder if we're dealing with like a black

01:08:40

Hebrew Israelite, you know. So, he says in here,

01:08:46

I should just read some of this. This was kind of entertaining. I don't know why the guy sent it to me.

01:08:53

Literally, all I got was this three -ring binder. I don't know why it was sent to me.

01:08:59

No introduction, no exposition, nothing. I kept the envelope in case

01:09:07

I finally meet Kevin Green one day, and I can go, what in the world? I mean, and he did this back in 2016, supposedly.

01:09:17

But it's kind of, he says, whoa, whoa, whoa to the forces of evil. Those who act against the

01:09:24

Holy Communion, God's chosen people, shall perish and suffer eternal hellfire.

01:09:30

Count on it, Jews. Vile villains, Nazis, whores, prostitutes, rapists, murderers,

01:09:39

Babylonians, haters, you know, Edomites. That's why

01:09:44

I'm kind of thinking he mentioned the Edomites. Vile creatures, devils, evil, evil, evil.

01:09:52

Those who act against the Holy Communion shall die exactly as it is written.

01:09:57

Count on it. I, the sovereign Lord, have spoken. It is filled with nonsense like that.

01:10:05

Then we get to see, he's got some, you know, it's kind of interesting because God wanted us to know the

01:10:11

March dates. I am hidden from you. This is where I shall be.

01:10:17

Where shall you be? March dates, Saturday, June 4th, church,

01:10:23

Sunday, June 5th, police station. I guess after church, he got arrested because Saturday, June 18th, jail,

01:10:32

June 19th, court. So we see a progression here. He went to church, then they got to the police station.

01:10:38

They brought him to court, then to jail, then to court. Police station.

01:10:44

So he wants to go to a lot of police stations and courts. That's where I guess the prophet of God is. Washington Monument, November 8th.

01:10:52

I don't know when he was supposed to be at these things. I guess God showed up at all those events back in 2016.

01:10:58

We must have missed that. Did you see those reports? I didn't either. I failed to see that.

01:11:05

You would think that it would be on Fox News. Yes. Well, no.

01:11:12

You know why it wouldn't be on Fox News? Hold on. I'll answer that. Let me get to there then. It wouldn't be on Fox News because, see, he's not afraid to name names.

01:11:21

He does. He tells us who's going to. So he says, will you run against the Lord? How much money will you hoard?

01:11:28

Haven't you fools spent enough? Haven't you fools said too much? Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.

01:11:35

See, he's he's willing to names into darkness. Now, in case you think that, you know, he's he's got the

01:11:41

Republicans and Democrats, although, you know, but then just throw more.

01:11:47

And you've got to wonder now he goes into darkness. You've led. Where where is now our eternal bread?

01:11:54

That vile lies you tell now up begun, you foul fat cows.

01:12:01

Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Michelle Obama, Michelle Obama. Is he rhyming? I think he's trying to rhyme.

01:12:11

And then he goes on, because I keep thinking it's like I will not eat hams, green eggs and ham.

01:12:20

I mean, that's what it sounds like. But he mentions like every all the senators mentions everyone in Congress by name, but not not to be outdone.

01:12:35

He's got some in your eyes. I told you I'll get to the Fox News part, but we got to do this in order.

01:12:40

He mentioned some others. Are you not all the popes?

01:12:46

Is this not your Rome? What have you been doing under my dome? And then he starts naming a bunch of religious people.

01:12:55

Joel Steen's mentioned. We might agree with him on that. Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Billy Graham is in the same category as Benny Hinn, actually right after Benny Hinn.

01:13:06

Rick Warren, Joyce Meyer, Paula White, Minister Louis Farrakhan names him in there.

01:13:14

I mean, he really doesn't leave too many people out. T .J. Jakes is mentioned. Andy Stanley, Bill Hybels, Rick Warren got mentioned twice.

01:13:22

I guess Rick was a really bad dude. Maybe God didn't know that he forgot he mentioned

01:13:29

Rick Warren already. Huh. So. Donald Wilson.

01:13:38

I'm just looking at different names. I think he mentioned MacArthur in here, too, but I can't find that right now.

01:13:45

Mary Noble, he mentions. And let's see. So then he goes on to does the

01:13:51

NBA really care? Will you lie? Do you dare? And then mentions

01:13:57

Boston Celtics, Chicago Bulls, you know, I guess all the the football teams are basketball teams.

01:14:04

And then he says on whose foundation was the NFL built? How much innocent blood has been spilt?

01:14:11

And then he goes to the Baltimore Ravens and Cincinnati Bengals and Cleveland Browns and then doesn't want to leave baseball out.

01:14:21

Whose community does the MLB serve? Will you claim your earnings?

01:14:26

Do you have the nerve? How much money do you hoard with games?

01:14:33

Are you not the Gladiators? I am not entertained. Baltimore Orioles, Atlanta Braves, Boston Red Sox.

01:14:43

Oh, man. And so then you come to this one. Was it the truth or was it a lie?

01:14:50

Will you live or will you die? Bill O 'Reilly, Don Lemon, Anderson Cooper, Brian Williams, Carl Rove, Al Sharpton, Sean Hannity, Megan Kelly.

01:15:05

So, see, you're right. He does. He does mention them, but not to be outdone. John Malone is saying this guy sounds legit.

01:15:15

I have to bring this to you. You can look at this. He then says, where has my tuition gone under every green tree and God under the sun?

01:15:27

Will you still ban God from your schools? Eternal fires of hell are destined for such fools.

01:15:34

Harvard University, Yale University, Princeton University, University of Pennsylvania. I mean, he didn't name all the universities, so he left a lot out.

01:15:42

Then he goes into naming companies. I mean, it was kind of funny to read through this.

01:15:50

And literally, the naming of names is like 20 some pages where he's doing that.

01:15:56

It's really quite funny. So I have right here some revelations of God.

01:16:02

It's red letter, man. Can it be wrong? Dr. Seuss inspired.

01:16:11

If Kevin Green, if you're listening, dude, come on here. Come on the show. That would be so much fun.

01:16:18

Yeah. Let's see what these refutations that you have.

01:16:25

Oh, Lord. Because he's a prophet. Well, let me, I should give attribution, right?

01:16:30

Should I give out his email? You're ready for his email address? I guess

01:16:36

I could give it out, right? Because he wants the word of God to be known. Here's his email message from the

01:16:43

Lord God at gmail .com. He couldn't even come up with his own server.

01:16:51

He had his Gmail. That's about Google, I wonder.

01:17:01

John Malone says, I'd pay to watch him come on. Yeah. So you get interesting things when you're in the ministry.

01:17:15

So I don't know if there's anyone that still has questions wants to come in. If not,

01:17:20

I'm going to get back to whether you can lose your salvation because there are some things there that we still have that I didn't wrap up.

01:17:27

So, uh, and John, you can help me if you want, but the, the thing that you have to understand,

01:17:32

I think the best argument against, you know, if you want to argue with someone that's saying that you can lose your salvation,

01:17:38

I think the best argument is to really just ask the question, when were your sins paid for that?

01:17:47

That's really the only thing you have to ask them because if they say the right answer, which is at the cross, they don't even realize they're done.

01:17:58

Okay. So let me give you that verse in Colossians chapter two. It's it's verse 14, but I'm going to start in verse 13, because you don't want to start in the middle of a sentence.

01:18:12

Um, KT says, KT is saying, uh, the guy, that guy's no prophet too bad.

01:18:19

He doesn't just admit he wrote it himself. Well, that is the problem, isn't it?

01:18:25

So, so as we look at, um, let's do this so we can look at it together.

01:18:31

There we go. What you end up seeing in verse 13, that's where I'm going to start.

01:18:40

It says, and you who were dead in trespasses and sins and the uncircumcised in your flesh,

01:18:49

God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.

01:18:59

So first off, how many trespasses did he, did he forgive all.

01:19:07

Hmm. Okay. So he forgave all of our trespasses and sins. How did he do it? Verse 14, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands, this, he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

01:19:25

There you go. So here, what you see is at the cross, all, not some, all of our trespasses that were canceled at the cross, that whole record is canceled.

01:19:41

And I think that is, that is in my mind, the best argument to use, because if once they recognize that all of the debt was canceled at the cross and every sin they commit is future to that act, then now there's only one of two possibilities.

01:19:59

You were never saved or you are saved. So you're saved and disobedient or you were never saved.

01:20:09

You were just a hypocrite that stopped pretending. Okay. Bill's funny.

01:20:19

I like this message. So he's saying that the guy's message from the

01:20:24

Lord of the VeggieTales. Yeah, it can be better suited for VeggieTales.

01:20:34

All right. Hey, John, I wanted to show you that you weren't here earlier. Did you see this earlier?

01:20:41

Did you see this? No, I didn't. Oh, let me show you. No, let me put that along.

01:20:48

Do you see whose name that is? Who's name is that? That would be

01:20:53

Matt. Oh, it's backwards. Oh, okay. It's Matt Slick. How's his shooting?

01:21:00

How would you rate that? I mean, if you were far enough away, you think you'd be scared if he's shooting at you?

01:21:09

No, actually, I think he needs to update his prescription. Yeah, I mean, it's like he missed every target almost, you know?

01:21:18

Wow. And I was cleaning up my house and I found this and I'm like, why in the world would I have kept this?

01:21:24

A target from Matt Slick shooting, missing the entire target until I saw this.

01:21:30

I had gone shooting with him and I hadn't picked up a rifle in like 25, 30 years. And that was him on his

01:21:37

AK. Here's me on my AK. What do you think of that? You think that's a tighter group?

01:21:45

Pretty good. You think grouping? I think it's a tighter grouping.

01:21:50

And I think I did a pretty good job hitting the bullseye. Let me count that. That's one, two, three, four shots that are right on the bullseye within that.

01:22:01

And this is a small dot. Right. And I got what? Four, five.

01:22:07

I got six, seven. I got seven there. It looks like right in that small bullseye.

01:22:14

And and then the rest of her just kind of around it. So I realized why I kept it. I I must have kept it.

01:22:20

Matt's not here to defend himself. So this is, of course, not. He should learn to come in here so he can spare himself the abuse.

01:22:32

Actually, no, we'll just abuse it more. All right. So. Let's see.

01:22:42

KT says he could sell it under his own name, it would seem.

01:22:49

I don't know if she's talking about Matt or the other guy. I don't know. All right.

01:22:54

So. So I don't. So really, the only thing I wanted to address is the fact of whether someone can lose their salvation.

01:23:03

And I don't see anyone else coming in here unless, John, you have more questions. Maybe I'll just end early and continue packing up my house because we're moving.

01:23:13

But. You got any other questions? No, I don't.

01:23:19

I don't have anything else, really. But. So you're moving from this house to another place?

01:23:25

I'm moving out to Pennsylvania where our church is. We were a church out in Pennsylvania.

01:23:31

And so a group of us started it up and we're going to. Move out there, you know, the nice thing is going to be about, you know, the nice thing is about Pennsylvania.

01:23:43

What's that you want to carry a gun? I get to carry. Yeah, I can't wait.

01:23:53

Yep. I can carry in my house, though, but it's not as much fun.

01:23:59

I mean, not really. You know, if someone does come in, I don't you know, I can I'm legally allowed to if they feel that they're threatening me.

01:24:08

But with my current governor, you know, I can only put 10 bullets in them. I mean, it just could be worse, though it could be

01:24:17

Virginia. Oh, no. I think Virginia. Virginia has, you know, has the sanctuaries.

01:24:27

So, you know, what is it like? Ninety out of ninety four counties are sanctuary cities for guns.

01:24:33

I mean, that that right there tells you that this governor is going to I mean, I think he's going to lose big time.

01:24:39

It must be that those other counties are the big cities and that's what carried him completely. So. Let me see that.

01:24:52

So John says I'm in. I want this up here so we have this for everyone to see. John says, am

01:24:57

I invited to the housewarming party? So everyone can see. No, John, never.

01:25:04

I would never invite you to my house. Actually, I invited John to my house the first time

01:25:09

I met him. So there you go. Actually, he's going to have to come by and and start packing up all of you.

01:25:18

So you move over to the other house. John, Saturday, we got a team of people coming over.

01:25:25

You know where I live. Come on over. We're we're packing up. So he says he's crashing anyway. Crash this

01:25:30

Saturday. OK, John, you can come on over. Some others, you know, will be here.

01:25:37

So Bill is saying, can you put the link in? I don't know which link, Bill, that you want me to put in.

01:25:44

So maybe you might have to do it. Sorry. So let me mention some things here.

01:25:52

Josh is coming in. So let me add Josh in. John, I'm going to put you in. No, he's not coming in.

01:26:01

He dropped back out. I don't know what I think I might have said something about. I think it's about a device that he's on.

01:26:09

Oh, look at this. What John says, I'm be sick that day. Like he is every

01:26:16

Sunday. Ouch. Oh, burn. OK. The link to John Bill wants to link to join the show.

01:26:24

The link to join the show is that apologetics live dot com apologetics live dot com.

01:26:31

That's where we go. So just go there. That's where the link is.

01:26:37

And it's it says let me I'll give you the exact wording of what it says. It says.

01:26:44

To participate live. And then there's a link. So that's the link.

01:26:51

So I will even I'll even show you. Let's see.

01:26:57

Let me get the page. You page. And I guess

01:27:03

I can share that. Let's do to do to share screen.

01:27:13

And I choose the window that says this makes such great podcast. Yes, it does.

01:27:19

I know. Um, here you go. Here is apologetics live.

01:27:26

And all you have to do, folks, you can watch it live right here. And then you just have to go to the link right there.

01:27:36

There's the link where it says to participate live. Maybe I need to make it bigger. Maybe that's what

01:27:41

I'll do, because clearly people aren't seeing it. All right. So we'll enlarge that for folks.

01:27:50

Maybe people are like John and can't read. So was there any other questions that we had trying to look through?

01:28:02

See if I missed any. That's why I invite you guys to come in. Other than having

01:28:11

Malone come and pack up my books, he should do that. He's going to you know, Sunday, I'll tell you what he's going to do,

01:28:17

John. Sunday Malone is going to tell me that he was tired at work on Friday because he stayed up late because he goes to bed at nine and gets up at 430.

01:28:29

I don't understand. I mean, nine to 430. That's like, what, seven hours, seven and a half hours.

01:28:37

I mean, I go to bed at 230 and get up at 630. I don't see a problem.

01:28:43

Sometimes I get up at seven. Yeah, but you're a part machine. Sometimes I go to bed at like three and get up at seven.

01:28:54

I get a good four hours, which we're strong at that. Sometimes on a busy day,

01:29:00

I'll be saying it keeps pushing them back to calm.

01:29:06

That's weird. Shouldn't do that at all. Yeah, unless it's his, his, uh, the only thing his browser must be blocking.

01:29:18

It's gotta be some kind of like a firewall thing or something or well, no, I won't put the link to Strong Fraternians.

01:29:24

It must be a cache. So, oh, I can't post it to it only posts to YouTube and Twitter.

01:29:33

Uh, okay. So Bill, you're going to have to tell me which page you're watching on. So I could tell

01:29:39

I can go look that page up because I don't know where you're watching. So Cody has a, uh,

01:29:50

Cody asked the question. Here we go. Yeah. Cody should definitely come in. You know, he's been in before he's got what, what a lame duck he is.

01:30:01

So while I will wait for Bill to tell me where he is so I can give him the link.

01:30:08

Um, Cody says if you're familiar with Masonry, can you speak on that?

01:30:14

So I'm not super familiar with it. Uh, I do know they have a secret ceremonies.

01:30:20

Um, yeah, Bill, I know you're on Facebook now. I don't know what page on Facebook you're on.

01:30:27

Uh, that's funny. So you got to tell me where you're watching. Are you in a, in like a striving fraternity group or, you know, uh, the striving fraternity ministry page, my wall it's, it's on a whole bunch of places.

01:30:41

So I need to know where you're watching it so that I can, you know, respond, uh, and tell you, cause

01:30:49

I'm trying to look through the pages and that isn't helping me. So, uh, free, free Masonry is a, it is religious.

01:30:56

It, it has a religious component to it. It is where they have, um, they have secret rules and ordinances and ceremonies.

01:31:08

They will, um, they, they started, I guess, with a, the idea of working, you know, as being like a committee or a group of fellowship of people who work in the same field type of thing.

01:31:25

So that's, that was the, where it started. And I don't know, um, you know, somehow it got a religious component to it.

01:31:38

And so, um, what

01:31:44

I'm going to do, I'm just going to try to send this to bill so he could join. If I'm friends with him due to do

01:31:53

LA and I am so, um, so I will send him a message, bill, check your messages.

01:32:07

Um, but the page is on striving for eternity. Uh, so you could, you could check that.

01:32:15

Oh, wait, did I grab the wrong link? Hold on. I may have grabbed the wrong link, but I'll double check.

01:32:25

This is for makes for great radio. Okay. Maybe I don't know if I grabbed the wrong link or not, but I'll send it to him again and he can go.

01:32:37

Okay. So bill has no more excuses. He's going to try to join. Um, so the, so free masonry started as a way of people who were

01:32:47

Masons trying to, uh, have a time of fellowship, getting together, trying to help each other with in their career.

01:32:56

And it did though in its origins have a religious component. And so you have to treat it as a religion.

01:33:04

Uh, they teach about a higher power. Um, they, they do have a book of rituals.

01:33:09

They do have certain rituals they do now. Yeah, we're not, that's not going to work.

01:33:15

Bill doing a Facebook phone call doesn't work. Um, he does know we're live.

01:33:23

Um, so I'll have to work with him another time to figure that out then. Uh, so the, the thing that you end up seeing is that as they, um, as they add, have this religious component, the, okay, come on bill.

01:33:45

You got to stop that. Hello. Um, as, as they add the religious component to this, uh, you, you end up having, uh, the fact that it is got these things where you enter in initially, and there's not really that religious component taught.

01:34:08

It's, it's similar to what you see with Mormonism. When you first come in, if you come from like a

01:34:14

Catholic background or something, they're not going to teach you a book of Mormonists, they're going to teach you, start with the book of Mormon, actually, but they won't teach you the real, those real doctrines that are very anti -biblical because they, the book of Mormon actually isn't that far off.

01:34:30

And so they're going to start with stuff. And then as you get into it deeper, they, they teach you more of their teaching.

01:34:38

Same thing with, with Freemasons. They start off easy and then they add more later.

01:34:48

Did you say something? Oh, I said that they, uh, they spoon feed you, you know, just a little bit of, a little bit of heresy, but then eventually they, they start piling on once you're really deep into it.

01:35:04

Yeah. Well, and that's what, that's what they're doing. And so, because what they're looking to do is they're looking to, uh,

01:35:18

I don't know what John Wayne is saying. He says, stop hammering. I don't know what we're hammering.

01:35:25

Um, but maybe that's a joke with the Masons. I don't know. But yeah, as you get deeper into it, there's,

01:35:32

I forget what level of Masons you have to be before they start bringing into the rituals and things like that.

01:35:39

So you, but you have to be pretty high up before you start getting that stuff.

01:35:44

So, all right. Any other questions? Let's see. Uh, Bill said, so this must be the question he's trying to ask.

01:35:53

My dad is an SDA. What are your thoughts? Um, you mean, what are my thoughts about your dad or the

01:36:01

SDA? I don't know your dad. Yeah, I guess he wants me to ask.

01:36:07

Maybe it's about seven day Adventists. You're right. So SDA stands for seven day Adventists. Um, seven day

01:36:12

Adventists are interesting. You have, you have a different group. You have, there are some seven day Adventists that I've met who

01:36:18

I would think they could be saved. And they just think that Saturday is the day of worship.

01:36:26

And therefore they're stuck. I mean, there's not many churches that you can go to on a

01:36:32

Saturday. And so there is one person who I, uh, who pastored at a

01:36:40

SDA church and, you know, his argument was that he, he just, um, he wanted to, he just, he, he went to be a pastor because he wanted to make sure they taught the truth.

01:36:57

He didn't teach all the seven day Adventist stuff, but then you have the other extreme where they're a cult, uh, some seven day

01:37:03

Adventists. Um, I mean, Ellen G. White had some, you know, crazy views.

01:37:09

I mean, she thought that if many meat, they're going to return to animalistic instincts and rape women.

01:37:14

That's why they're vegetarians. Um, so, I mean, she had, she had a lot of bad views.

01:37:20

And so there's some aspects of it. That's, you know, there are many seven day events that will say that if you don't worship on Saturday, you can't be saved.

01:37:29

Well, that's adding to not only scripture, but salvation, uh, that's legalism. And that goes back to what we first talked about in the first hour about how, how to get saved.

01:37:38

And that when you add any human effort, you're, you're getting, uh, having salvation.

01:37:45

Um, I'm just noticing on Facebook, we got an angry face from Jonathan David Jenkins, but don't give an angry face, dude.

01:37:52

Come on in. All right. I'm going to John, I'm going to put you in the backstage so I could bring Cody ribbons in Cody.

01:37:59

How are you? Where are you from? Can you hear me? Yeah. Can you hear us?

01:38:06

Texas. I didn't know that. Most, most people on the coast don't, don't realize anybody else exists.

01:38:18

So I just want to know what it's like to be like Matt, you know, he, he only, how many times, how long did it take before Matt's like actually realized where you're from?

01:38:28

I don't know. I still don't think he knows. You met him at the debate with Del Hunty.

01:38:35

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Cody's good guy. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a mod on his discord server and the, uh,

01:38:42

I don't think he still even knows. Oh yeah. That's funny. So, so what questions do you got?

01:38:49

Oh, um, Ooh, let me ask you some,

01:38:57

I've been thinking about, uh, kind of in the realm that we, we operate in. Um, do you believe that we should, cause this, this is what

01:39:07

I hold to. I believe that we, that we should be using that, that we should be under the authority of a local church.

01:39:17

I agree with that. Submitted to the leadership. It's biblical and, and actively serving in some capacity in that church, according to the gifts that we've been given.

01:39:30

I agree with that. Okay. In fact, I'll tell you, I agree with that. Let me tell you a story.

01:39:36

When I was pastoring the church, uh, and I stepped down, uh,

01:39:41

I put out on Facebook to pray for my church because I'm going to be resigning. Uh, there, I said, they're about to find out that I'm, I'm resigning.

01:39:48

And I had been asked to speak at other churches, but you know, on like Sundays, but I wouldn't do it cause I have my own congregation.

01:39:53

That was my focus. And so now I didn't have that. So I started to say, sure,

01:39:59

I'll, I'll accept speaking engagements. And that next two years I traveled 48 to 49 weeks.

01:40:08

Well, I'd have people ask me, so what church do you, do you go to? And basically my answer would be like, eh, the one

01:40:15

I'm attending, right? Cause that's really what it was. I was out every week at someone else's church.

01:40:23

So what you, what ended up happening was, is I realized there was a problem because here

01:40:28

I'm teaching on the importance of a local church, right? What am

01:40:34

I doing? I'm not serving in one. So I got together with my board of directors and I said, guys, this isn't good for several reasons.

01:40:42

One, I'm not accountable. If I'm traveling all the time, I don't have that accountability.

01:40:48

So I needed to be accountable to a local church. Second is how do

01:40:54

I serve in a local church if I'm never attending, right? I can't use the gifts that God's given me inside the local body that God put me.

01:41:04

So what we did is said, okay, there's gotta be some changes at least half the year. I have to be in my church so that I can be serving so that they know who

01:41:15

I am so that, you know, I can teach. So there's times where, you know, we block out times, you know, the previous church

01:41:22

I used to attend, what we do is we'd block out six weeks and I would teach every, you know, for six weeks.

01:41:29

And we would just block that out. Here at the church where I'm at, you know, my church is gonna come first when my pastor needs, you know, if he's gotta be somewhere and he needs me to preach, that church comes first, right?

01:41:44

So if I get an event, if I get someone to ask and our church is small, I mean, we just started, we got 30, maybe 40 people.

01:41:52

And so what you end up having is, you know, I could go get an invitation, oh, come speak to a church of four or five hundred.

01:42:01

Sorry, that actually just happened. And it's, I'm scheduled to speak in my church and that's what, that comes first.

01:42:11

So, you know, I'm gonna serve in my local church. I, when I'm in, now it's harder to work my schedule, but, you know, when

01:42:19

I'm there, right? So I do security. I do the ushering. I do teaching.

01:42:25

I set up all the AV cause we're in a rented building. So we got to set up and break down. I'll do all that stuff.

01:42:32

I'll teach when there's opportunities to teach, but I'm also sitting under the authority of the pastor.

01:42:40

I'm, you know, I'm attending, you know, I attend the leadership trainings. I attend the

01:42:45

Bible studies that we have, and I'm sitting under the authority of others and guys who just travel all the time that you end up seeing, they, they end up going wayward a lot of times and they do so because there's no accountability in their life.

01:43:01

Well, I, I asked because I know there's a tendency for those who are into apologetics and doctrine to maybe be more ahead theologically of their pastors.

01:43:19

That's certainly not out of the, that's not, that's not out of the realm of, of, of where we're at and not, not all, but, you know, sometimes that's the case.

01:43:32

And so, but I, I just, I'm concerned talking to a lot of guys on the internet and stuff that are into apologetics because I talk with them and so many are brilliant.

01:43:48

And then I asked them, are you actually serving in your local church? Then they're, they're like, no.

01:43:56

Well, I asked, do you teach in your church? Do you, do you share what you know in your church? And they, and they say, no,

01:44:03

I just, we just go. And well, and I'm just like, I don't understand if God has gifted you.

01:44:10

So there's two things there. There could be, let me give both, both angles on that.

01:44:17

One, you do have guys who don't serve in their local church. I've, and I heard some people when

01:44:22

I've, cause I've asked the same question to some people and it's like, oh, I don't have time.

01:44:28

You know, I'm so busy with the ministry. I'm traveling. How about when you're not traveling, you know?

01:44:35

I mean, you know, Matt Slick at his church, he, you know, he doesn't do a lot of travel.

01:44:42

He, he and his wife like work with the kids, which is kind of funny. Can you picture Matt in a room full of kids trying to teach?

01:44:49

Okay guys, let's talk about super left Syrianism. Like those poor kids.

01:44:57

Let's get our, let's work on our theological terms today. But, but here's the thing.

01:45:03

You have some who are, who are either they're too busy traveling, so they can't serve. You have some who they don't want to focus their energy serving the church cause they're serving the ministry that's paying them, which is a problem, right?

01:45:19

I mean, would, would they accept that argument from a guy who works, you know, at a job say, say he's in sales.

01:45:27

She'd be like, well, Hey, I can't, I can't go to church cause I can't serve in church unless I'm selling things, you know, that's not going to fly.

01:45:35

The, the other thing is, so there's some people and in the, in that first category, I say that the person who says he can't serve in his local church because he's too busy serving in his ministry.

01:45:46

Then I think his focus is wrong. Okay. But there's a flip side.

01:45:52

And I've been on this side of it. You have people who, when you get into a church, if you are, you're a known apologist, you're a known pastor, you know, in the area in Jersey, where I was, it was hard for me to attend churches because when you walk in, they know who you are.

01:46:12

They know that you're a pastor, things like this. There are some guys who get intimidated. There's some people that are territorial.

01:46:19

They think you're going to take their, their, uh, try to take their church or you're going to try to take it over or, you know, whatever.

01:46:26

I don't fully understand why people do that, but, you know, I've been in churches where I've realized, like,

01:46:32

I'm never going to serve. They're never going to let me just, you know, it doesn't matter that you're gifted.

01:46:39

It's their territorial, which is then the problem on their side. I mean, it's the reason that for, you know, several years

01:46:46

I was in a church that, you know, the pastor of the church was a friend of mine for many, many, many years ago.

01:46:52

We don't agree theologically. Um, I, it wasn't like we were learning a lot from being at the church, just the style of teaching.

01:47:01

I mean, he would openly admit from the pulpit that I'm a better teacher. I'm a better theologian that I, I know the scriptures better, but why would

01:47:08

I go to that church? Because he has that view and he's not intimidated by it. He's not threatened by it. I could serve.

01:47:14

He would let me serve. He'd let me teach and not, you know, it wasn't an issue and I need to serve in a church because that's what every one of us should be doing.

01:47:26

And so there are some churches where they won't let guys who like that, you know, you know, they're not going to let them teach.

01:47:35

Um, Matt is able to preach once in a while in his church, not very often because you know, his, his pastor hates

01:47:43

Calvinism and Matt's a kind of a known as a Calvinist. Right. And so he can't, he's limited on what he can do, but that's going to come for you.

01:47:54

You see, sometimes it's coming from the leadership that it's limiting. So you can't be too hard on the, the apologist until you find out which case he's in.

01:48:04

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I see that. I just, it seems like I run more into guys that are good with debating on the internet and stuff, but when it comes to actually, you know, getting involved in their local church, they're timid.

01:48:24

Um, and maybe, maybe that's a deeper issue. Maybe that has something to do with, uh, maybe being an introvert, maybe it has something to do with, uh, they actually don't have a very good, uh, moral reputation, or maybe they have secret sin that they're hiding, or maybe they're not faithfully attending the church or something to that effect.

01:48:46

You know, there could be a multiple multitude of things that, that are going on. I mean, cause what a lot of, look, there's there, and you're, you're around enough of apologists to know this, that there are some people who are apologists because they, they love to win an argument.

01:49:03

There's some evangelists that are on the streets and they don't care a wit about the person's soul.

01:49:10

They care about winning an argument and patting themselves on the back saying, Hey, didn't

01:49:15

I just nail that guy did such a great job. Um, and so, you know, you, you, you have to realize that for some of these guys, it's a pride issue.

01:49:25

It's, it's, it's, it's, there are guys who are really good at debating and making good, clear arguments and shutting other people down.

01:49:35

Okay. That's a reality. And some of those guys, it goes to their head and they start thinking they're, they're more than they are.

01:49:43

They don't know their place and they don't think they can learn from a pastor. And so you see a lot of these guys, they don't attend church.

01:49:50

I know a lot of open air evangelists don't attend church. I won't, I won't reach with them. I know one that just keeps, you know, he actually said here in New Jersey, he was down in, in, uh,

01:50:00

Camden, New Jersey. And he actually said that here on the street, that was his church because he's preaching.

01:50:08

There's two or three gathered, taking that passage out of context, but two or three are gathered. They're praying, they're singing and that's church.

01:50:17

Well, that's not church. Cause you're preaching the gospel. Even if you're preaching a sermon out there. Okay. I can have church on the beach though, you know, just enjoying nature.

01:50:28

I mean, God, you know, when I'm sleeping, I like to sleep in, I like to call it bedside

01:50:33

Baptist church. Yeah. John, John here says, uh, Andrew, I've experienced that as well.

01:50:40

Not serving in church for a while, but am back into teaching now. Thanks.

01:50:46

Uh, John's a brother. I know he and I were out in California, uh, pastors Academy, sharing the gospel together.

01:50:52

If that's the same, John, I'm thinking I got to look it up just to make sure. Cause my memory is not what it used to be.

01:50:58

I'm realizing that more and more. Hey, it is who I'm thinking. See, I was right that time.

01:51:04

Good. I like it when I'm right. Happens so rarely. Oh, uh, I got another question too.

01:51:11

Just a random one. I was talking with Catholics the other day and something I thought about it. Um, what do Catholics say?

01:51:17

Like when they talk about praying, praying to Mary or praying to the saints, why did they assume that the, that the saints and Mary are not in purgatory?

01:51:32

That's a good question. Actually, I've never thought about that. Do you mean, have you asked

01:51:38

Catholics? Do they give an answer or no? No, I was just thinking about that today. I mean, I guess they would say that Mary would have had to be out of it and the saints have to come out of it because, you know, they, they got their sainthood.

01:51:50

I think that's why, you know, cause I remember when, uh, Teresa died, you know, they mother, they call her mother

01:51:56

Teresa and she died and they, they were, they couldn't, they were like debating whether they could Saint her cause she, you know, well, she had enough time to get out of purgatory.

01:52:04

Um, they do need some time before they can get sainthood from the church. But I don't like my question is how does the church know that they got out?

01:52:13

I mean, does God text on a little now or yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember when

01:52:19

John Paul the second died, um, they, I remember a newscaster that was saying that made a comment that according to Catholic church, it's a newscaster.

01:52:31

I don't know where he got his information, but he said the Catholic that the Pope would spend 10 days in purgatory before he could go to heaven.

01:52:39

And he said, most people spend longer, but the Pope is so Holy. He only spends 10 days.

01:52:44

I don't know where that came from. Um, I never saw that in any Catholic teachings, but I also haven't read everything and everything the magisterium puts out.

01:52:54

That's, you know, God's work. So, you know, yeah,

01:53:01

I'll tell you, I'll tell you here lately. I actually, uh, I'll plug a couple of podcasts. I I've really, uh, benefited from,

01:53:09

I really like what Eli's doing with his revealed apologetics broadcast. I really like that stuff.

01:53:15

He's doing a really good job with that. Um, and, um, he needs to get in here more. Yeah. But he's, he's got to learn the technology and another one

01:53:27

I've really enjoyed and I've actually wrote him. I told him he needs to start doing more as Eddie Roman with Roman his

01:53:33

Romans road one. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's great. I love hearing his interactions to street interactions, evangelism, and then him narrating as he goes along where he's going with it and all that kind of stuff.

01:53:46

It's been great. Yeah. The Romans road is a, is an excellent podcast and, uh, he, he does do a good job.

01:53:52

He, you know, he's, he, he gives you the, he's, he's teaching you how to evangelize and how to do apologetics.

01:53:59

And he's doing that, you know, by playing the clips of him actually evangelizing people and then chalk talking it afterwards.

01:54:06

Um, and then he does different, you know, he does, he's got the advantage of where he works at living waters.

01:54:13

Um, because what, what, you know, this is how he he's, he's got an interview that'll be coming out soon that I'm on.

01:54:20

And I was in studio filming and it was really funny. Like, I mean, I'm, I'm there all day.

01:54:27

Okay. I'm sitting there and we started, I think like at eight or nine in the morning and it was now like, like three,

01:54:35

I think so like three or something. And you know, Eddie's in another room and all of a sudden we hear, okay guys, that's, that's a wrap for the, for the video video guys.

01:54:44

You could go, you know, Mark, you're free to go. Uh, Andrew, you stay put. I'm like, what'd I do? I feel like I just got sent to the principal's office.

01:54:51

And then he comes and goes, Hey, I want to grab an interview with you for my podcast since you're here. And so he's done that to a couple of guys because they're in filming and he's just like, you know, he's the producer.

01:55:01

So he's like, Hey, can I grab some of your time afterwards? So that's an advantage.

01:55:07

So yeah, Eddie, Eddie's doing a great job. He's a, he's on the Christian podcast community.

01:55:12

One of, one of the, the many over there. So I should plug that. Um, and, and with plugging that I should plug our giveaway.

01:55:22

Um, if you go to, uh, if folks want to go, we have a giveaway. If you go to bit .ly

01:55:28

.com slash CPC, that stands for Christian podcast community. So CPC contest,

01:55:33

I'll put it in the show notes. You could see it on screen, but bit .ly .com slash CPC contest, or just go to christianpodcastcommunity .org.

01:55:44

And that'll get you to where we have, uh, the slider will come up eventually with, uh, with the, with the giveaway, we're giving away over a thousand dollars worth of books,

01:55:54

DVDs, CDs, uh, flash drives. Uh, there's like 120 ways to enter.

01:56:02

You can enter every day, get lots of entries. And so I forget, I should look,

01:56:07

I think there's over 10 ,000 entries already in that. Let's, let's take a quick look, but we're, um, we're, we have, you know, lots of entries so you can, you can enter.

01:56:18

Um, no, I was off by a little bit, uh, 7 ,500 entries so far.

01:56:23

So unless this didn't refresh, so, uh, you can enter and there's, if you go, if you do everything,

01:56:30

I think if you do all the 128 ways, I think it's like 450 entries and then you can enter every day and just keep building up the entries, get better chance to win thousand dollars worth of books from MacArthur, uh,

01:56:44

Ray Comfort, uh, Jim Osmond. I forget them all. Greg Coco. I should actually look at the full list, but we don't have time cause that would take too long.

01:56:54

So, um, but if you check those all out, there's a long list there of, um, of resources that we're going to give away to one person.

01:57:04

So we're going to do that end of February. So you still have a whole month to enter plenty of time to get entries in.

01:57:11

Uh, I should also mention and plug the Israel trip. Cody, are you coming with us to Israel? Oh man,

01:57:17

I wish I could. No, that's the wrong answer. Yeah. If you, if you wanted to go, you'd go to 2021

01:57:25

Israel trip .com 2021 .com. If you, if you do it right now,

01:57:32

Cody, here's the thing. If you do it today, there's only one day left because after tomorrow, as the time we're recording this, it goes back up to 500 for the down payment.

01:57:43

You don't have to put $300 down today and tomorrow. After that, it goes up to 500.

01:57:48

You have till November to make a decision and you don't have to make a payment.

01:57:54

I don't think until January. So there's a lot of time to save, sell things.

01:58:00

I mean, think about it. You get to go to Israel for like 13 days, so it's longer than most trips.

01:58:06

So as long as you get the two weeks off and you know, you save the money, you got

01:58:11

Justin Peters, myself, Anthony Silvestro doing the devotions. We might have, we'll have some others and seeing

01:58:18

Israel and getting to hang out with us. I mean, come on, it's better than hanging out. I love that.

01:58:24

I love to get, I mean, especially with you guys, I know there's a few other projects groups that are going on trips, but I'd really like, because I've really benefited from every one of those guys.

01:58:36

And I think it'd just be a great time, but just got to - John Malone says you should sell a kidney.

01:58:43

Yeah. And that's how he's doing it. Yeah. Well, my wife might cut off more than a kidney.

01:58:57

Yeah. So we, we'll have to see if it gets closer and that's a possibility to the

01:59:03

Lord's willing. If not, then yeah, I'll be in Jerusalem one day. Right.

01:59:08

Yeah. Well, it would be, it would be great to have you. So we're going to, we're going to end up closing out tonight.

01:59:14

Cause we're at toward the end of the show. I don't know why it is. Everyone always comes in at the end always, but I was working late.

01:59:21

So, yeah. So I'm going to, I'll put you in the backstage here for a bit and let folks know, we do appreciate you guys listening.

01:59:30

Make sure you subscribe to our new YouTube channel, Striving for Eternity, switch to a new channel.

01:59:36

And if you just go to youtube .com slash, I think you just have to do slash C slash Striving for Eternity.

01:59:43

So that's the channel. If you're watching this on YouTube, go subscribe. We want, we want to get those subscribers up.

01:59:51

There's things we could do when we get to a thousand subscribers that we're trying to set up. And so subscribe there.

01:59:58

This also becomes a podcast. And if you go to Apologetics Live on any podcast app, you can get this in podcast form, subscribe to that so you can listen to it and get that.

02:00:10

And so next week, I don't know what we're doing next week. I should, I'm in town. I'll be traveling in March, but I am in town for February.

02:00:20

So we'll have an Apologetics Live. I will say this though, we will be having, let me find the book and I'll show you.

02:00:29

The book is called Torahism by R .L. Soderbergh.

02:00:35

And I spoke with him today. I'm going to have him on for two hours.

02:00:41

This will be, this is going to be one when you talk about Hebrew roots movement, black

02:00:47

Hebrew Israelites, people that are moving into trying to follow basically what he's pointing a new word, the

02:00:56

Torah. So it's Torahism because they're following the Torah. I don't know if he'll be on next episode or the one after that.

02:01:06

We're going to try and book him for February. I think that's going to be very good. So anyone that has questions on Hebrew roots movement,

02:01:14

Messianic Jewish movement, black Hebrew Israelite movement, he's not an expert with the black

02:01:19

Hebrew Israelites, but there's going to be a lot of, that's going to be the same for both. So that's going to be something you want to make sure you are there for.

02:01:28

So I'll let you guys know if you go to ApologeticsLive .org, I'll let you know what's happening and who's going to be the guest.

02:01:38

If we have a guest or what the topic is going to be, always go there. That's the place to go to join us. So make sure you're doing that,

02:01:46

ApologeticsLive .com, and that will get you to where you want to be.

02:01:52

So we appreciate it guys. And until next time, remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.