Sola Scriptura, Bad Roman Catholic Apologists, and More

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a

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Thursday afternoon. I'm trying to find her in that exploder here Because it's the only one it will work on our phone system for some reason

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Mozilla does not like our phone system. It just it just It doesn't like that the printer thing either at least on my end it doesn't but anyway

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I thought I would start off for today By mentioning a little something about some of the books that I'm reading these days

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Some people actually find that interesting and as we are recording things now and posting it on the internet on YouTube I will show you those of you who take time to that this book just arrived

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The textual and studies third series volume six from Houghton and Parker textual variation theological and social tendencies question mark papers in the fifth

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Birmingham colloquium on the textual criticism of the New Testament my daughter almost went into seizures when

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I read her that but So some of the really interesting. I'm looking forward to sitting down with Scribal behavior in p66 some great little scans here and discussions of of things like that but I happened just a little while ago to be thumbing through and Dirk young kins has a article here with some rather humorous.

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It's not normal to find humor in textual critical papers at a symposium, but there are some funny -looking graphics in here and Here's one marked poor old scribe and these are things that might be influencing the scribes transcription

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Shouldn't have had the beans yesterday. I Thought that Thomas gospel was quite nice have to buy sandals finally my favorite part of this book and hallelujah,

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I Had never actually seen anything like that in a scholarly paper on New Testament textual criticism before but yeah, that's

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That's gonna be some interesting reading. And of course, I have two volumes here from if you if you buy books like this and you see

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Brill as The publisher, you know, you spent at least three digits and both of these were well over three digits

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Unfortunately stays in the textual criticism the New Testament Bart Ehrman, of course his scholarly papers and then

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Eldon J Epps perspectives on New Testament textual criticism collected essays 1962 to 2004 that one's only around 850 pages or so and then we've got this one's interesting scribal habits of Codex Sinaiticus Which now is the rock star of all?

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Ancient books on the Internet is Codex Sinaiticus. You haven't didn't see all the stuff about Codex Sinaiticus going live.

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Oh goodness Yeah, the Sinaiticus website went live last week and for the first couple days you couldn't get into the

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English site So someone in channel, I think it was Turton fan had the brilliant idea go into the

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German side and it worked just fine Apparently I'm not on that mailing list. Well, it was discussed a good good deal in the in the channel

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Yeah, nothing to say that one. Did you nope? No, you got nothing to say that. Oh, yeah Skyman says he's bought some

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Brill books and If they turn out to be okay, if they turn out to be really good resources, then you feel good

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But if you get a Brill book and it turns out to be a lame -duck and you look at how much you paid for it

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You ain't feeling very Brill No two ways about it mm -hmm bad stuff anyway

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As I normally do in the mornings as I think a lot of people are doing anymore. I almost never bother with you know any type of Cable news or anything else in the morning at all.

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I do my RSS feeds and you know you scan the news headlines and stuff like that and then

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I have all of my Christian ones and my anti -christian ones and my Islamic ones and so on and so forth and So I happened across Steve Ray's blog which

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I have in the apologetic section that is the those who oppose the faith and I learned later in the day.

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That's of course Dave Armstrong the Chihuahua of Roman Catholic apologists Who just he just so much reminds me of one

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What was that cartoon where you had the real big dog, and then you had the little yippee dog?

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It was just bouncing along next to him. Hey spike. Hey spike Remember him

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I I forget who that was but but the little Dog that's

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Dave Armstrong because he never does anything original on his own. He always borrows somebody else and when

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I'm so when Steve post this this video. It's not long before Dave Armstrong throws it up there

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Oh, and I was gonna. I was gonna put this up Let me for some reason Firefox doesn't do the ctrl -t thing anymore either at least on on most of my systems

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That's because they're PCs and I am Starting to get unhappy with PCs basically, but Let me see here

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Scroll down here. Yeah here. Here. We go he He posts this video we're gonna listen a little a little bit of it here in a moment

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Bishop James White's solo scriptura inanities hilarious YouTube montage which as I said

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Had been posted before that by Jerusalem Jones And then right after and it's how far the mighty

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Bishop White has fallen Just so pathetic and but then right below it open forum listen to this open forum

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Please try to interact with folks with courtesy and politeness as you would do if you were face -to -face

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And that's that's right below the other one I You just got a chuckle a lot.

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It's a Dave Armstrong. He's something else. Anyways, they both put up this This video that someone posted on YouTube which once again begins with I Don't know how they don't get this but same things

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You know Dave Armstrong blow up a big picture of me and show the top of my head or something

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I mean, that's always you know real deep, you know Brilliant wise type of thing and very compelling argumentation very very, you know,

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I definitely that's why I guess That's why I wear caps now is because I don't want you know,

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Dave Armstrong to do that anymore I guess anyway, and what it is is what you do is you take little snippets and You know, you don't worry about context or things like that.

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You take a snippet and You only take what you hope Your audience of Roman Catholics will find compelling as long as they don't understand what the debate was actually about same and So Let me just play a section for you.

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It's by the way, if you want to find it on YouTube you can search for It's X Y L K e apostrophe s

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Whatever X Y L K e is or refers to X Y L K e apostrophe s sola scriptura truth edit

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And there's more to that title than might meet the eye. Yes, they had to do some truth editing on this to put together

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There's no question about it. But let's let's listen to a snippet of this to get us to get us started today

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I I I believe in Scriptura now you can show the Catholic world how you arrive at this

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Infallible certitude about Scripture using something outside of Scripture to get to it. That's your dilemma

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To it before the end of the night now that of course was from the 1993 debate with Patrick Madrid and Of course, there are pictures

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My picture is, you know being edited didn't and flipping around and doing things to keep your mind on the screen

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Because this is all audio basically with of course the you know, the music in the background things like that.

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That sounds just wonderful. But anyways and I would just respond as I did in the debate by pointing out to Mr.

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Madrid that to attempt to make the canon infallible on that level requires that you have an infallible

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Church and When we asked mr. And mr. Madrid upon what basis he has an infallible

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Church. What does he go to? Well, well, you know we have this argument for the infallibility Church and that argument for the infallibility of the church and the point is he has to go outside of the church itself to prove his point and So his argument isn't even consistent it accomplishes nothing

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All it does is move the question of ultimate authorities one step backwards And as I've said many times

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Roman Catholics All you're doing is to is is moving the line backwards and then using your foot to to sort of smooth out the footprints

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No one can see that what you've done and they stand there and smiles if you accomplish something epistemologically you've accomplished nothing at all

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That is he wants to say well you need an infallible source to define the canon for you Well, I don't say that the cans infallible

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I said the scriptures infallible and I base my view of canonization which mr. Madrid did not understand in 1993

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Nor was it the subject of the debate specifically? but I base my view of the canon of the scripture on the

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Promises of God and the extension of God's power to accomplish what his purposes in scripture are

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I do not base it upon an infallible Church in any way shape or form God may use means but the means he uses do

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Not themselves have to be infallible, but the very same argumentation that mr. Madrid just used in that comment

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Could then be turned upon his own argumentation itself That is how do you know that Rome is infallible?

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Well, I don't care if you use Keating's spiral argument Which isn't really a spiral it's circular but spiral argument or anything else

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You're always going to be going to outside sources to try to establish these things. So on an epistemological level

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It simply doesn't work. It doesn't accomplish the ends that the questioner is attempting to Use in in the debate

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So the only people that will find that kind of argumentation Compelling are people that are not thinking deeply enough to understand what the issues are in the first place

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And I think that's why these things keep popping up Is that the people listening these debates don't get how their position was refuted?

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They just don't understand it They're they're really not following what the debate is. And so they just pick some things out there their side said and so on So then then we had

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What did I put there? Okay, then we had I've got a bunch of stuff queued up because I want to respond to a couple of these things the

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Jerry Matta ticks Section which of course was utilized for a long time by Philip or Vosnick Who likewise put just a portion of the cross

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X up on on the web and see James White admits that the

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Apostles and Jesus did not follow social Torah. So why should we and They don't you know give you the whole thing where you go

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How during periods of inscription when the script Torah is being formed?

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Through the process of revelation Could you hold to sola script

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Torah because the script Torah doesn't exist yet Since the whole issue is that scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith for the church

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Then the question becomes well Why would you even ask the question about unusual times of inscription rather than the state of the church today?

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When both sides admit that there is no revelation taking place once again, it is a

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Means of getting around the issue and anyone who thinks that's somehow a compelling argument just doesn't understand what the issues are

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So here's how it came out in the video When Paul wrote to Timothy in 2nd

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Timothy chapter 3 he warned Timothy that evil men will be coming into the church

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He wants Timothy I was going to be difficult and in Acts chapter 20

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The Apostle Paul warned the Ephesian elders that there would be those who would come up within the ranks of the eldership itself

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They would teach false doctrines. I believe in It is not the scriptures fault that men like to have their ears tickled in fact the scriptures warn us

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But there will be those who are like The sailboats we saw out on the oceans in there blown about by every wind of doctors

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I believe in solar Now by the way,

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I'm glad that he's getting that stuff out there. I I Hope people listen to it. Maybe they'll track down the debates and listen to the whole thing

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This evening are eternal the issues this evening are vital And I'm so thankful that you're here to share in this experience with us.

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Did the people in Jesus's day practice Sola -scriptura the hearers of our

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Lord has said over and over and over again It's not because I love that sola -scriptura is a doctrine that speaks to the normative condition of the church

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Not the time been scriptural your answer is no that is exactly what my answer is no

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Did the Apostles practice sola -scriptura Mr. White yes or no? No, thank you

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Did the successors to the Apostles Mr. White practice sola -scriptura.

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Timothy only believed what Paul had written Did he practice? again after the

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Conscription of Scripture. Thank you. Mr. White. Oh, I'm glad to affirm everything you said very good So Mr. White you admit then that Jesus didn't practice sola -scriptura.

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I asserted his hearers Do not What do you mean that tradition to which he holds has made many an error contradicted itself

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Man, it's awfully hard to even listen to that with that that techno in the background I I guess that sort of explains people aren't listening really carefully.

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Let me let me play for you Portions of that. I've got so much stuff queued up here

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That it's not even funny So many things we can we can look at and looks like we've got oh, it looks like a relevant question

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But let me play this. Let me play this first. This is from the

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Man and a no nuts no, that's not the way I want. I want this one here. Here we go Here is at least a portion.

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I want to listen to at least a portion of What you won't hear Roman Catholics like this put to techno music and I wouldn't want to be put in techno music anyways

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If you're gonna put something like this put the music at least you can think with And it isn't quite as loud as the people speaking. So you have to pick things out

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Less is poor production. But anyways This is my cross -examination

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This is what came right before that section My cross -examination of Jerry Medetich.

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Let's see. How well isn't it interesting? Jerry Medetich's they would use him today Because Jerry Medetich's isn't an

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Orthodox Roman Catholic anymore, and he uses the very same kind of argumentation Against them, but the

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Orthodox Catholic apologists won't debate him. I mean ask Chris Arntz and he's tried to get him all to go on the air with Jerry Medetich's and He can't get him to do it.

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Isn't that ironic? Well, anyway, let's let's let's listen to how that really went

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Okay, mr. Medetich's Where has the church in light of the examples you've used you've used two examples

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You talked about in second Thessalonians. He who restrains Paul not mentioning what that is in second

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Thessalonians And then you mentioned Paul preaching for three years in Ephesus Where has the church infallibly defined what

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Paul meant in second Thessalonians concerning he who restrains and where has how?

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Does your tradition give us the information from Paul's preaching in Ephesus that you say we somehow must have now?

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Just catch up Jerry will present things and he'll say well look The the

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Apostles said a lot of things that are not in Scripture Which of course is a given both sides would agree with that and he gave as an example an interpretation of who the one

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Restraining is so would it be wonderful if we if we knew who that was and Then I mean

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Paul preached for three years in Ephesus Here's the beginning of tradition. These are the things that are passed down to us

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Well, that's a real nice convenient thing to say But there's this little problem as And I didn't cue this one up.

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But as I asked Mitchell Pacwa in our debate in 1999 I said father

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Pacwa is there anywhere where Rome has officially defined a Single word that Christ or the

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Apostles ever said outside of the New Testament and He honestly answered.

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Well, no So, you know you hear these Roman Catholic apostles well Just think of all the things that the

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Apostles said and taught and if all you have is sola scriptura Then you don't know these things

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But what is the implicit assertion in that kind of? Rhetoric we do know these things and we can tell you these things

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But the fact the matter is you're gonna see they can't tell you anything about it at all

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The Question presupposes a typical misunderstanding of the

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Catholic Church It is not taught by the Catholic Church and therefore it will not be taught by me tonight that the church

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Only passes on the tradition in dogmatic pronouncements That is one way the church passes on what

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Christ and the Apostles taught it also passes it on in the liturgy It also passes it on in a whole host of writings that come to us from the fathers that do not amount to solemn definitions

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So I'll agree with you. Mr. White, but it's it's it's not injurious to my position that neither the

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Council of Trent or any other council said If any man denies that when st.

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Paul said that the Anyone denies that that the restraint that st.

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Paul speaks of is this or that let him be anathema There is no such dogmatic definition So if you so then you do not have an infallible knowledge of what

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Paul refers to there, do you? Are you asking do I as an individual? Yes, I Have not studied all the church fathers.

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I have not studied all that the liturgy contains So I will admit that there are many things that have been passed on by the

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Apostles to their successors Which can be found in the writings, but I have not yet personally discovered I've got a lifetime of study ahead of me.

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So those those alleged traditions that are passed on In regards to these very issues you brought up.

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You can't show us a theanoustos inspired Elements of Data or knowledge that would tell us what

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Paul meant or what Paul preached in Ephesus Can you on that particular point of the man of sin? No, I grant that I don't know everything that has been passed on that that's

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Now remember, he's the one who brought up these examples. He's the one who presented them. Not not me I'm not coming coming up with something that that he hadn't presented or anything else

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He presented these as part of his attack in sola scriptura And so when I say, all right, show us what these things are now, you can see he has no response

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That's something I've been doing because I have not read everything the Church Fathers taught but I can give you several Examples of things that and by the way, the

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Church Fathers would have taught all sorts of things about this You could find all sorts of differing opinions on all of these kinds of things amongst the volumes and volumes the writings the early

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Church Fathers There is no unanimous consent on these types of issues

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Protestants do not believe is clear in Scripture that Catholics do believe was clearly passed on that the practice of infant baptism

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For example, are there things that is the Alpinistos that was taught by Christ the Apostles are there things in the tradition of the church?

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things in the writings of the father that are erroneous Individual individual fathers

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Can make individual statements that can endure of course and who determines when they're speaking the truth and when they don't well, the fathers have to be shown to be saying something that is

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Taught by a consensus of the fathers if one father saying something idiosyncratic Then then that could be erroneous and finally, of course when there is a dispute when when some theologians or some

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Later Catholics might quote one father and some might quote another When it's necessary the church can meet in a solemn council

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This is they did in in Jerusalem in Acts 15 and say this opinion is that which was passed on by the

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Apostles? This opinion is idiosyncratic. So the church Hierarchy determines what is and what is not apostolic tradition in the writings of the fathers ultimately the

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Apostles Exercise a governing function in the church, which they passed on to successors as we see in the pastoral epistles

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Yes, you said that some early fathers might teach something as idiosyncratic Historically, for example the majority of the early fathers as we've discussed before Taught that Matthew 16 18 is not in reference to Peter as the foundation of the church

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Yet a later council defined that as a dogmatic belief. How can you test?

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The statement of the Vatican Council that it's the ancient and historical and universal faith of the church on any basis whatsoever

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How can you test what the church says to you as a as a Roman Catholic and still be faithful as a

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Roman Catholic now? Remember given his position today. He can no longer answer as he answered that day.

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He has changed I'm exactly where I was that day. I would argue exactly as I did that day

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Well, you look at first of all the the basics because contrary to get to another common misconception

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The church cannot pull a rabbit out of a hat When the church says we're going to solemnly define what we have to believe about justification or baptism

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There's always citation of Scripture no person in this room could Fail to pick up the canons of the

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Council of Trent for example and not see in the footnotes that they quote Scripture Copiously in support of the assertions they make they can quote previous councils and previous church fathers, too.

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But how can you test? Am I allowed to look at the the the citations at the bottom of the page and say they were wrong?

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Obviously if there's if they say something like, you know, John chapter 1

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Alludes to this or that and in fact you look up the reference and it has nothing to do it It says nothing about Mary or baptism or wherever it is

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And then any reasonable person could say wait a minute there's some there's some slip of the pen here or something

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But do I have the right as an individual priest priesthood holding believer before God?

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To look at Roman Catholic arguments and Basic teachings based upon tradition and say their use of Scripture is wrong

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Well, I don't know what can be an example Yeah Matthew 16 18 is a misuse of Jesus's words to Peter to establish the papacy

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Am I wrong to say that and if so, why you are wrong to say that? I don't know what you mean by do you have the right?

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The freedom to look at things and you have the freedom obviously right with God and you have the freedom to Come to an erroneous conclusion.

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God grants us that freedom. We do are we're free to sin How do you know it's erroneous conclusion simply because?

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Ultimately as you say, yes, the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth sola

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Ecclesia, we've we all heard it coming. He just didn't want to say it. I mean, is that not clear?

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I'm watching people in the channel. They all saw that coming up Here's sola Ecclesia the church defines.

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What is scripture? What scripture says the church finds? What is tradition? What's tradition says sola Ecclesia? There is no way to test what

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Rome says infallibly that's all there is to it that's his ultimate authority and Scripture is not equal to that authority scripture cannot be interpreted outside of what that authority says

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Scripture says if we can ever figure out what it says What that infallible authority says about scripture?

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So anyway that you know, very very very clear He just didn't want to go to it upholds the true teaching of the

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Word of God and the church fathers Is there any the church fathers which did not make explicit?

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The fact that this could have some application to Peter do not exclude that possibility Many times with all due respect

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Protestant apologists sometimes say because this church father Doesn't say something about this verse that a later one does well

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He would have been implicit he would have been explicitly excluding it less early Let's just let people know you and I have done a almost seven hour debate on that They can get the tapes from either one of us.

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They want to find out that's the case If second Thessalonians 2 15 is as you say a command to hold on to oral traditions and these oral traditions

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Contain data that is outside of scripture itself Then does it not follow that I am in fact

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Consistent to ask you to be able to demonstrate to me that the Thessalonians Had delivered to them the very same doctrines that you say

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I must believe on the basis of tradition today of course I can I can make the assertion that the

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Thessalonians had an obligation to pass on everything that Paul taught them because The command is right there in scripture

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But if you're going to ask me for a laundry list of everything that I know was specifically part of that Congregation that the

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Catholic Church doesn't make you're asking you're building up a straw man the Catholic Church simply says everything that we do believe as a doctrine

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Does come from the Apostles whether those things were all taught at Thessalonica or whether they were taught

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Corinth or whatever? I mean Jerry let me put this way Somewhere along the line somebody one of the Apostles Paul or another taught orally to somebody in the early church that Indulgences were true, right?

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The the principle behind them yes Okay, so then is is it no no no please no then is it consistent then for me to ask you to show?

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Me something in the copious Writings of the early church that demonstrates. They they have that belief sure that's perfectly legitimate, and if this were a

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Debate on indulgences as perhaps we ought to have I'd be very happy no excuse me ladies No, no, no, let's just don't groan

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This is a debate on sola scriptura, and I'm going to ask mr. White to to defend from scripture that thing for him to say now be ready at the drop of a hat mr.

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Matta ticks without my telling you ahead of time which doctrine I'm going to bring up you've got to give me petristic citations in support of indulgences, okay?

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Jerry was it is it a valid question to Absolutely, I and I'm going to meet that challenge now

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Jerry was Athanasius wrong in standing against the majority of the organized church of his day

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He was right to stand up for what the church had officially taught at the

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Council of Nicaea even though Bishops had apostatized from that faith that the church has always admitted individual bishops can and do urge now now now

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How many people in that audience? Recognized how dishonest that that answer was how bad that answer is

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Probably not many and that's one of the problems debates. You know people have to go back, and they have to check these things out

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Let's remember there were councils that met and anathematized

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Athanasius and Compromised the Nicene Creed That had more bishops at them than Nicaea did there were decades that passed when this was the majority view of The bishops of all the churches in all the world the

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Roman Bishop himself signed the Arianized Sermium Creed That's why it was

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Athanasius contra mundum So did you hear he just did well there might be individual bishops.

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No there were councils decades and Athanasius stood against them all if he's gonna be consistent now.

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He'd probably remember this came up on On iron sharpens iron when Jerry and I were on last year

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Because now he has to take a different view now he has to look to Athanasius as support

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Because now he's in the minority standing against his organized church To see

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The people moving around from position to position and what's interesting is about his response

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There is that his position today in reference to the current bishop of Rome would be right apostasy right exactly

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Yeah things they do a change were there not councils after Nicaea that condemned

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Athanasius yes or no no there were none You know you've not read the the proceeds of any of the

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Arian councils that the Arian councils Yes, I thought he said a council the church Yes, exactly the next council mr.

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White is you well known as the Council of Constantinople in 381 now notice what he's doing here again

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These folks love to play with church history, but they won't accurately handle church history because the whole idea of ecumenical council is yet well into the future at this point in time and the very fact that Nicaea did not have quote -unquote ecumenical standing in the minds of people is clear from every bit of historical information available to us

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Nicaea had to fight for acceptance and so here you have all these other councils that meet of more bishops and How do you know before?

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Constantinople how do you know during the Arian resurgence that Athanasius is wrong and the established church is right or vice versa by Modern Roman Catholic standards the person living that day could not know

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They could not know that came out in the debacle with Tim Staples on papal infallibility where he fell apart and I pointed out that given his defenses of The various papal errors that I documented that during the lifetimes of those popes

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Who gave those erroneous? Understandings and teachings no

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Individual alive at that time could possibly know what the truth of those matters was could not

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Couldn't know it That's the problem with the system when you deny solo scriptura when you make another authority equal and in function superior to the authority of Scriptures Ecumenical count right, but you have a reminem you have

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Seleucia you have even Liberia's Signing the Arianized Creed of Sirmium at the in the years between 340 and 350

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Athanasius is also almost alone even the Bishop of Rome didn't stand with him when the majority of the church stood against Athanasius Why then would he stand up and say the reason

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I don't accept this is because the scriptures are self -sufficient for the preaching Of the truth you mr..

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White give us one passage from Athanasius where he says the scriptures are Self -sufficient contingencies one one.

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I just gave it to you. Well you read it out loud to the people you have this No, but I'd be happy to pay for a copy of it well

34:11

I'm buying this one. I'm giving it to Jerry I'll pay for it there are he he nowhere says mr..

34:17

White that the scriptures are self -sufficient to establish all the doctrines and That actually was my citation of contra gentis one one and that was the end of the first cross -examination period

34:31

Hey, you know what I will submit that whole period to anybody that was right at 11 minutes in length or so 10 minutes in length and You Know I don't think those photos anonymous folks on YouTube are gonna be putting too much

34:52

Techno music to that particular cross -examination and posting that and I wonder why

34:58

I think it's pretty Obvious our first caller before we go back to some of this other stuff

35:04

Is right on this actual topic which is exceptional unusual So let's go ahead and talk with Paul on solo scriptura and the early creeds hi

35:14

Paul Hey, how you doing good good? Yeah, the question I had and regarding this what value

35:22

Do you think those early ecumenical creeds have for orthodoxy in light of school?

35:29

scriptura Well, you know I've addressed this a number of times because there are a number of evangelicals Who rather glibly will say something along the lines of well of course we accept the first?

35:40

Seven ecumenical councils, and I just I just want to go have you read What each one of those seven ecumenical councils said normally what they're referring to Are the symbols or the creeds?

35:53

in regards to Trinitarian and Christological issues that are a part of those councils not

36:00

The entire council itself the canons and and decrees and things that were associated there with I don't know of anybody who actually

36:11

As a Protestant could hold to the seventh ecumenical council for example in regards to what it says on all sorts of things so the value of any creedal statement historical or modern is directly related to the

36:29

Accuracy of what it says biblically in regards to whatever it is. It's addressing so the

36:35

Nicene symbol Has authority because what it says is exactly what the scriptures teach the only way you can accept

36:44

What and I see it teaches is if you have the highest view of scripture and you actually believe you have to believe both solo scriptura and tota scriptura all of scripture and Scripture alone if you reject either one of those you really don't have any reason outside of tradition to be holding to those particular things

37:01

And the Chalcedonian definition of the person of Christ again

37:06

The issues are biblical. They are exegetical in nature the farther down the road

37:12

You get the more politics became involved in some of the choices of terminology

37:18

And so one has to examine the roles. You know you look at a at a Cyril of Alexandria I mean, this is not a nice man

37:26

This is a man very clearly motivated by all sorts of external factors outside of the exegesis of scripture

37:32

And so you have to keep those things in mind in looking at the context of the days and things like that But I've defended the

37:41

Chalcedonian definition, but I do so on the basis of scripture and on the basis of some sort of authority to be assigned to a particular gathering of people in a particular city at a particular time and so You have to it's it's really as we just saw

37:56

The issue of asking quite the question. What is the nature of ultimate authority from God if?

38:04

Scripture is the anus toss if it is God breathed is there anything else that is they honest us

38:10

You can call the church a pillar and ground the truth all you want that passage is talking about the local church Not the

38:15

Bishop of Rome you have to twist it out of its context to come up with things like that and What is a pillar and foundation but something it holds something else up and that's what the church does in the proclamation of the message

38:28

That has been entrusted to her which she finds in the voice of her Lord, which is found in scripture

38:34

She does not substitute her own speaking for that of her

38:39

Lord And so it is a matter of categories and recognizing that the category of scripture that the category of God's speaking

38:46

That's why I spend so much time emphasizing Jesus taught this he said have you not read what God spoke to you saying

38:53

Paul taught this second Timothy 3 Peter taught this men spoke from God as they were carried along by the

39:01

Holy Spirit This is the view of the Apostles. This is the view of the prophets This is the view of all of those whose writings have come down to us and to attempt to subjugate

39:12

Their own perspectives on scripture to some external authority whether it be a council or anything else

39:18

Is is to go against their own intentions. So anyway, they are historically relevant they are

39:27

Extremely important along those lines because they do document for us the struggles of the early church against incipient

39:35

Gnosticism or all the various Trinitarian heresies But when

39:41

I debate a modalist or when I debate an Aryan I am NOT debating them on the basis of an authoritarian creed

39:50

I am debating them on the basis of what God has said in his word and as a as a creed or a symbol

39:56

Its value is directly related to its consistency to what God has spoken in his word Okay.

40:03

Yeah, did that helpful? Yeah, without a doubt. Thank you very much. All right. Well, thank you very much Thanks for calling.

40:08

Okay. All right very relevant to what we were saying there, so let's go ahead and I wanted to get this one today if we've got time, we'll come back to Jerry's crosshairs, but I wanted to get to something else today,

40:22

I wanted to get to Steve Ray Jerusalem Jones and You know other than Isn't it funny people like Dave Armstrong and Steve Ray the ones who will post these kinds of videos and make those kind of remarks

40:37

The ones who will promote all sorts of lies and slander and and attack people's families and things like that They are the very same men who will never stand up in public and defend what they say against me face -to -face

40:51

They won't do it. They won't do it because they know they can't do it Steve Ray knows that his arguments would collapse like a house of cards under cross -examination

40:58

Dave Armstrong knows the same thing. And so this is the only way they can get around it is to Hide behind their keyboards and do this kind of stuff and so Steve Ray Received a phone call on I believe

41:12

Catholic answers live over the past couple of months on the subject of Mary and I wanted to Play it and then demonstrate once again these people

41:21

They get their standard answers and then that's pretty much it aside from just a few

41:29

Roman Catholic apologists very few I See no evidence these people care at all about what people say in response to them.

41:38

That's one of the reasons They don't do well in debates is Because they don't listen what the other side is saying. I mean honestly does the other side sit around and do what

41:46

I do Do they take my materials and play entire debates and review them and provide interaction?

41:54

I mean if Catholic answers live one meet and have me on I'd be on If these guys want to have they want to come on the dividing line and interact with me

42:02

I'll have them on and they know it. So one side here is very straightforward and upfront one side isn't

42:10

That's just all there is to it. So here's a caller on the subject of Mariology and I wanted to Just again demonstrate that Steve Ray is going to run to the

42:22

Ark of the New Covenant stuff and I want to play him making that statement and Then go back to a well the very first great debate on Long Island in 1996

42:33

I believe in fact, are you Are you DVDing that or are you

42:39

DVDing and did you videoing it? did you did you video we are in the process of digitizing all of them starting with that one and Trying to get away from DVDs all together where we actually just offer them through the web and other media is a little bit more direct

42:56

Because DVD is kind of going by the wayside. Yep. Yep Yeah Well, isn't isn't it like gone gone isn't blu -ray the new standard or something?

43:04

Blu -ray is gonna be the next the new HD standard DVD really kind of tried to make a run for it, but High HD DVD just didn't take so we're gonna have to I'm gonna have to get some new machine, huh?

43:16

It looks pretty incredible. I've seen it in the stores. Yeah. Well, all right What can

43:22

I say? So here's here's the the call and then we'll have A little clip right after us.

43:27

I had a couple questions I'm not currently a Catholic my parents are and they were asking me to investigate the church and I had a couple of questions

43:37

One was the Catholics view of Mary And that she was born without original sin

43:44

Although I can't find anything in the scriptures that say that The contrary actually where Jesus states that there's no one without sin.

43:52

He doesn't say there's no one without sin except for Mary, right? it's all in all encompassing including I always viewed

43:58

Mary is Basically like Noah God looked at the earth and said who do I have best to choose from at a time and and Mary was the best to choose from That's I'll get that.

44:09

I'll answer that one. You have another one too. Yes, and that let me do this one first the Bible never specifically says that Mary was

44:17

Sinless and it was the Immaculate Conception. It never comes right out and says that but We understand in Scripture See, she's a picture of the

44:28

Ark of the Covenant too And there's some there's so much involved in this whole thing and it the Ark of the Covenant was pure It was gold within and gold without and it was the center of Jewish worship they didn't worship the

44:39

Ark of the Covenant, but they worshipped the Shekinah glory of God above the Ark of the Covenant and Mary that's a picture of Mary because the

44:47

Word of God was in the Ark of the Covenant the Word of God on stone and in Mary is the Word of God and flesh and when

44:53

Jesus when the angel I should say came to that's one whole aspect I have a whole writing on my on my website about Mary the

44:59

Ark of the Covenant, which really shows. It's an amazing thing Yeah, it's really an amazing thing there Steve and what is amazing is that Roman Catholic apologists just keep repeating stuff like that without ever

45:11

Really taking the time to find out what has been said about it. Here is a rebuttal period from the very first Debate with geriatrics.

45:21

Now. This was a this wasn't the first debate date of geriatrics this is the first great debate on Long Island on the subject of the

45:27

Marian dogmas and We crammed way too much into it. It was it was moving really fast

45:34

We threw a lot of stuff out there He did the best we could but here is a section where I address this very issue on the subject of Mary just very quickly since I said

45:44

I provided them all you have to do is pick up Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic dogma look at page 203 and he lists origin basil chrysostom and Alexandria Has taught that Mary suffered from venial personal faults as an ambition and vanity doubt about the message of the angel so on so forth

45:58

And if you want an entire list, I can give them references specifically here from Irenaeus chrysostom and many other places including specific references

46:07

Jerry there on page 117 of shafts work on creeds if you'd like to look them up Now in regards to the

46:12

Ark of the Covenant, which again is the only thing being presented to us here. I have not heard any Substantiation of the claim the

46:19

Kakara to many Luke 128 means Mary is sinless But again, I want you to use this as an example of how closely you have to listen because it sounds really good

46:29

When you hear these alleged parallels, doesn't it first time? I heard Jerry give this this list of parallels

46:34

I went wow, that sounds really good. I wrote down everything he said and I checked out everything he said against the Septuagint It didn't work as I pointed out.

46:42

Mr. Mattick says for example talked about the Ark of the Covenant passing through the hill country of Judea and allegedly

46:49

Mary does the same thing though Actually, you look at the geography and we're not sure exactly where that is So at first Samuel 7 to is that the

46:56

Ark had been in curious Jerem for 20 years Where is that parallel to Mary see when you start drawing parallels? Where do you stop?

47:02

See, there are no rules this type of interpretation. Mary must have been someplace for 20 years in curious Jerem If not, why not as the passing through the hill country of Judea, this is

47:13

Luke's phraseology It's not that the Septuagint no mention is made of Judea Only of a hill upon which a house is situated in the

47:19

Old Testament narrative We're told that David left before it with joy. We read that he says who am I at the Ark of the

47:24

Lord? You come to me. Those are Jerry's own words, but actually Jerry didn't say that. He said who am I? How can the

47:30

Ark of the Lord come to me? We are told that when he leaps for joy This is the technical term that the same thing happens with the baby in the womb of liturgical dance before the presence of God That doesn't hold up.

47:39

It's not the same term. It doesn't have that meaning The simple fact the matter is you have to go and do some homework.

47:45

I can't do it for you He can't do it for you And I appreciate the fact this room is filled with people who at least care enough to find out what the issues are but I believe that every one of us sitting here this evening is responsible before God for what we believe and That means you're going to have to do some homework

48:00

And I submit to you that if you do some homework and examine these alleged parallels these alleged types You'll discover they can prove anything.

48:11

I When Mary word the uttered uttered the words of the Magnificat and talked about God my

48:16

Savior Did she have in her mind the idea that she was immaculately conceived? Is that what you really believe is going on here?

48:25

It is not an issue of having to find a word that says Mary sinned. I think we can all see that The Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God the positive or affirmation being made is

48:36

Mary is the exception Where is the proof we haven't found it? Thank you So that was

48:43

I believe I only had like three minutes to make that rebuttal It wasn't really long enough to do it but there is a rather brief address of the claims that Jerry makes and what these people do is they they tend to just quote each other and If it if it played well with one audience, then go ahead and use it and has it hasn't been challenged

49:02

We don't know we don't care that seems to be the attitude is we don't know we don't care And I just I don't understand that I just I Don't get it, but that's just sort of the way things are.

49:15

So anyways We have called we need to go to let's let's talk with once again with Frank.

49:22

Hi Frank Hello Frank Yes, sir. How are you doing doing?

49:28

All right. I'm doing I'm doing fine myself. I just had a question Regarding biblical interpretation

49:35

I know that Everybody who's Orthodox be they Catholic or Protestant?

49:41

Admit that the scriptures are or God breathed and I was just wondering how

49:47

How do we understand? authoritative interpretations of scripture

49:54

Are there are such thing as like God breathed into interpretations? such that for instance the 19 creed could be considered

50:04

Could be considered such an interpretation Well, that certainly would be a utilization of the term far beyond that of Scripture the

50:12

Apostle Paul when he uses that term in in no way makes reference to any kind of Interpretation as being they honest us it is scripture

50:22

Which is the honest us because that refers to its origin and so you would have to in essence have a doctrine that allows you to have

50:29

Revelation after scripture or some other kind of revelation But if it's going to be the honest us then you cannot have a canon

50:35

You're gonna have to have a 28th book of the New Testament the 29th book of the New Testament You're gonna have to keep expanding that canon

50:42

And of course, there are people who have suggested that the Montanans certainly did in the ancient church and the

50:48

Mormons do today But I generally have found that those who are suggesting expanding the canon are always doing so because they want to add things to the

50:55

Canon that actually completely overthrow the consistent testimony of what's already there So the idea of the authority

51:03

You know, look at look at the terminology the New Testament uses of the preacher. He is described as an ambassador

51:09

He is described as one who proclaims an authoritative message now an ambassador

51:15

When he appears in the name of a king in the court of another kingdom Speaks with the authority of the one who sent him but his authority is strictly limited to Repeating the message that has been entrusted to him.

51:30

He is not made a second king his authority is directly related to the consistency of the message that he delivers if he varies from the message that has been entrusted to him by his king his authority disappears and So the authority of the

51:49

Christian preacher standing before the people of God is the very authority of the

51:54

God -breathed scriptures and it is in direct proportion to the consistency of the message to that which was originally given which is why the ambassador the preacher the proclaimer is supposed to be

52:10

Protected by the people of God from all the distractions that would keep him from being a student of those words

52:16

He is not meant to be the CEO of a corporation. He was not meant to be the one taking out the trash

52:21

He is not meant to be the one doing all the financial things and feeding the poor and everything else the person who's entrusted with that duty is entrusted with handling the very speech of God and it is to be their passionate focus of their lives to deliver that message to the people of God within the

52:40

Church of God and that tells me that That ambassador idea that being the authoritative representative is not the authoritative representative in the sense of coming up with something new but is the authoritative representative in Handling that word in the very same way that you would want your children to show respect to your words to interpret them in their original context with their original intent and Not to use those words in such a way as to twist them or change them or import any other meaning into them

53:17

Other than that which you yourself intended them to bear Okay, is that helpful?

53:24

Yeah, okay, I'm getting there. Thank you for your time and your answers. Okay. Thanks a lot

53:29

Frank. All right. All right. God bless. Bye -bye That sort of takes me right back to The rest of this right here.

53:38

I want to go back to You know, sometimes these numbers I get enough of these things queued up these numbers are difficult to look at let's see

53:46

I believe it's this one right here. Let's listen to all of what Jerry Mattick said and in the cross -examination not going to get all of it in here, but we'll at least get started and listen to some of the cross -examination here

54:03

All right, mr. White now I have ten minutes to cross -examine you right First of all, can we agree?

54:09

Mr. White that there is in fact no verse in the scriptures that states

54:18

That the scriptures are the only rule of faith in practice. You might want to say well There's verses that say other things

54:24

But can we agree that there is no verse that does state that the scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith and you know this reminds me of I have found this to be the kind of argumentation of Desperation that is used by a number of religious groups

54:40

Muslims will constantly repeat over and over again There is no verse where Jesus says

54:48

I am God worship me as if Those are the only words in that order

54:55

That could possibly demonstrate the deity of Christ and the propriety of the worship of Christ There are

55:02

Mormons who will argue the Bible doesn't tell you the Book of Mormon isn't the

55:08

Word of God does it? Well, that's obviously anachronistic But that's the kind of mindset that people have and when it comes to solo scriptura it doesn't matter how many times that you point out the absolutely unique nature of scripture that it is

55:24

Absolutely unique it is that which God has spoken it has as its origin

55:29

God's breath it is his speaking and You can say if you're going to say that there's anything else on that level then you must show us

55:42

The pedigree The authority, how do you know that this source that you're putting forward is?

55:50

Itself equal with scripture and all they have to do is say well

55:56

I don't have to do that. I you just have to show me where the Bible says it. That's it it alone

56:02

So it can say it alone is they honest us it can say it says Scripture is they honest us every writer shows clear recognition of Its absolute unique nature, but if those specific words don't appear that oh well

56:20

Then there might be something else so souls guitar isn't true That that's the kind of argumentation that people actually find compelling enough to then buy into the

56:30

Marian dogmas Because that's what you get once you knock down the wall of solo scriptura

56:36

You get the Marian dogmas you get the papal infallibility you get the purgatory you get the indulgences you get st.

56:42

Peter being built with the money from indulgences. That's where it all comes from Right there in front of you

56:48

Practice the only way to agree with that statement as you put it this way the only places in scripture that address the rule of Faith and practice identify it as scripture

56:57

But do they state that scripture is the only rule of faith in practice since that's the only rule of faith and practice they present

57:05

Yes Can you give me the verse which states that scripture is the only rule of faith in practice?

57:11

I gave it to you just a few moments ago in 2nd Timothy chapter 3 verses 16 to 16 where the man of God Who does the work of the ministry in the

57:20

Church of God is Thoroughly and completely equipped for and this is what a rule of faith is

57:26

Jerry For his ministry in the church by that which is they on you stop

57:31

So that's exactly what I said to Patrick Madrid, and you won't hear them play in this portion in their little debate thingies with their techno music either

57:40

Which again causes you to really really either come to the conclusion that these types of people are grossly dishonest

57:46

Or they don't understand the issues. They just don't get it And that is

57:52

I asked Patrick Madrid in light of what Paul said that the man of God is

57:59

Thoroughly completely equipped for every good work as the man of God in the church

58:07

Correcting and training and so on so forth then and I'm waiting for music here, but then

58:14

What you did what you what you surfing on the web there rich Nah, oh you come on.

58:20

No no no no no you know that's not the case anyways, then how does

58:26

Scripture How does Scripture equip Patrick Madrid to teach papal infallibility?

58:33

It doesn't No one could possibly stretch themselves to think that it does or any of the

58:39

Marian dogmas Which if they are dogma would have to be part of the ministry of teaching and exhortation the church it just doesn't work

58:50

So those of you who want to put together some you know a little techno grooves on YouTube Let me I've got a challenge for you try doing it truthfully

58:58

Try presenting both sides. Maybe try listening to both sides sometime You're not gonna get that kind of example following Dave Armstrong and Jerusalem Jones, but I'd call you to a higher standard

59:08

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:59

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