Feisty Mormon Girl Defends Mormonism

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Actually, I've been to a ton of churches, but before I was a Mormon, I was Muslim. You're a

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Muslim. You went from Islam to Mormonism. Yes. So, you went from a monotheistic religion to a polytheistic religion.

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Yes and no. Okay. They're both monotheistic, but I do understand the whole controversy and misunderstanding when you don't really understand the doctrine of Heavenly Father once being like man.

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But we don't worship anyone but Heavenly Father. But there are three... were you raised

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Muslim? No. No, okay. Oh, so okay. Well, how long have you been a convert for?

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A year and almost two years. Almost two years? Yeah. Okay. So, do you know the teaching from Joseph Smith in the

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King Follett Discourse where he says that God has not been God from all eternity? Those are not actual doctrines.

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Those are just commentary. But no man or prophet is completely perfect.

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But that's not an official doctrine of the church. It's not something that's taught. It is.

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Brigham Young said that his sermons were scripture. Well, the ones that are in general conference and things like those are.

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But simple interviews and things like that are not. Well, the King Follett Discourse wasn't an interview. It was a message that Joseph...

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it was his most famous message. And all your authorities and elders... Probably not his most famous message.

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No, that's his most quoted from discourse he ever gave, the King Follett Discourse. And he said, we've imagined and supposed that God was

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God from all eternity. I'll refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see. He said, you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you.

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So, in Mormonism, the teaching is that God is one God among many gods. And you've got to become a god yourself the same way he became

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God. Yes. And so, that's polytheistic. It's not monotheistic. There's many, many gods in existence and three gods of this earth.

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And so... One God. There's three gods. Actually, Jesus Christ is not a god. Jesus Christ is just like we are except for he and...

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Well, Mormonism doesn't teach that he was born of a virgin Mary. Mormonism teaches... Mormon prophets and apostles taught that Heavenly Father had sexual relations with Mary to produce

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Jesus. I haven't heard that quote. I can show you from Joseph and Brigham if you'd like to see it. I mean,

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I guess. So, you know why we're here.

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We care about you. We love you. We're Christians. I was going to say, we're here too. Yeah, we're Christians. And our big concern for people like yourself is that this church, even though it uses

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Christian terminology, teaches a different God and a different gospel or way to God.

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And so, the God of this community is one God among many gods.

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Jesus Christ is Lucifer's brother. He's not the eternal God like the Bible teaches. And again, there are three gods of this earth.

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And so, that's a different story than you find in the scriptures. It's a different God. So, the God of the

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Bible says, Before him there was no God formed, neither shall there be after him. So, if you take just that on the face of it, the

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God of the Bible says he's the only God, there's none before and none after. But Joseph taught that there were many gods before God and you can become one one day.

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And so, that's a different God. And Jesus said he's the way, the truth, and the life. And no man comes to the

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Father except through him. And so, if we have a different... Oh, yeah.

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It's fine. Yeah, we like to have conversations with our Mormon friends that we film. No, it's fine. We're trying to spread the gospel.

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Also, at the same time, we like to show that we can have conversations that are loving and gracious and respectful.

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That's good. So, there's a number of different things I could show you.

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And my friend over there, he's a Mormon apologist. He's my friend. He's a Mormon. He's been a

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Mormon for a long time. He'll confirm for you that Mormon prophets and apostles did, in fact, teach. Here's a couple of examples.

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Now, by the way, just so you know what this is, you can look this up yourself in your own documents. This is a photocopy of the actual page.

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And the track that we gave you has the references. You can research for yourself on your own time. Here's Brigham Young in Journal of Discourses, Volume 8, page 115, 1860.

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He says, I believe that.

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Okay. Yeah. So, Heavenly Father, according to Mormon prophets and apostles,

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Heavenly Father, I'm sorry. You're fine. Heavenly Father came to Earth and had sexual intercourse with Mary to produce

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Jesus. It doesn't necessarily say sexual intercourse. Well, yeah. How were you made...

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Should I read it again? Sure. Just one example. The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children.

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It was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood, was begotten of His Father as we are of our fathers.

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I think that just depends on how one interprets natural action. Natural action, maybe it was just the growth inside of Mary, or, you know, whatever you would like to interpret it as.

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Well, I'll show you another example. Just to show you what's not just one verse taken out of context. Let's see here.

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Let's go here. This is from Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158.

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Yes. Therefore, the Father... See, that's against Christian teaching.

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That's against the Scriptures. The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus had an earthly father. He didn't need a physical father.

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It was a virgin birth, and so that was promised in Genesis 3. Virgin birth. It was promised in Isaiah 7.

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Virgin birth, 714. But here we go. Therefore, the father and mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of husband and wife.

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Hence, the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father.

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And so, the description there is how did Jesus get His fleshly body? Sure. Therefore, Heavenly Father was...

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This is called Where Does It Say That? It's photo reprints of Mormon documents.

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And so, the references that were on this tract that I gave you. And I can show you a number of other places, too, and you can confirm that with Mormon teachers.

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Just out of curiosity. Sure. So, you're saying that some of this conflicts the Bible, correct? Absolutely. What about the parts of the

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Bible that are in conflict with other parts of the Bible? How do you know the truth from that?

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That's a good question. And what I would first say is that God says in His Word that all Scripture in 2

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Timothy 3, 16, all Scripture is breathed out by God. So, it's God's revelation to us from His own mouth, right?

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And it says in Peter that holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. So, that's how it came, the

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Holy Spirit of God. And the nature of it is it's God breathed. It's His own Word. Now, God cannot lie.

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God cannot change. And so, if the revelation is from God, it's not going to contradict, because God is truth.

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God by very nature cannot lie. I don't believe the Bible in this conflict, mostly because the

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Bible was written in tons of different languages, Latin, Greek, Aramaic, whatever. And it's been translated so many times.

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Take the example, I was Muslim and in the Quran, there's a word, I don't remember what it is, because I don't speak fluent

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Arabic, but where it's in regards to your wife and how to treat your wife when she maybe is not following what the husband wants.

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And of course, that's not necessarily what I believe now at all. But there's many different translations of the word, even though Arabic is a modern day language.

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And they keep the Quran in Arabic so that these translations cannot come and make things incorrect.

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But the thing is that you can interpret different scripture in a different way. And we see that through how the

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Bible is changed in language throughout the ages. And I mean, obviously, of course, the Bible is the word of God.

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And it's the first testament of Christ and probably the most important testament of Christ ever that will be on earth.

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But the way that I came to know, not only the differences in the Bible and exactly how

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God wants me to interpret it, and also the Book of Mormon, is that I prayed about it.

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And I don't want to give just the stereotypical, I prayed about it, the Holy Ghost told me, and everything was great.

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Because it was really hard. Because the adversary likes to keep you from making the right choices. But after praying about it,

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I knew, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, that I was making the right decision to become baptized.

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And I'm not trying to convert you, because obviously you want people to believe this. And if you're standing for what you believe in, that's great.

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Because, I mean, we're all supposed to do that. Can I respond to just those two points? I'll just start with the last one first.

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You prayed about it and it felt true to you. You felt like you knew it, right? It didn't just feel true to me.

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But that's how you feel like you know that it's true, is you prayed about it and God revealed it was true to you, right? I don't think

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He revealed it to me. I know He did. Is Jesus Michael the Archangel? Oh, see, now you're getting into things that I, as an early

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Latter -day Saint, don't know. No, no, no, that's okay. Let me try it this way. In Islam, you were taught that Jesus Christ is not the

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Divine Son of God. That He is a prophet. That He didn't die for sins. He didn't rise from the dead, right? That's what I learned when I was a Muslim.

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Now, Muslims believe that with all their heart. That Jesus is not the Divine Son of God. That He didn't die for sins.

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Didn't rise from the dead. Okay? And they know it with all their heart. Well, some might think that, and that's totally cool with them.

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Is it true, though? Is it true, though? When I was Muslim, it was very logical to me, and it all made sense because sometimes

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I'm quite the logical thinker, and there's lots of science in the Koran. There's lots of just things that make sense to us and things that are really hard to argue with,

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I guess you could say, or try to conflict. But there was a personal relationship that was not there at all.

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And I found that through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. Actually, not through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints. Not through Joseph Smith. Not through my prophets or the leaders in my church, but through the Holy Ghost and I, which

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I don't know how you believe about the Trinity. Well, that's begging the question, though. I mean this just really gently and respectfully.

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It's begging the question as to whether or not the Holy Spirit revealed that to you. Yes, the Holy Spirit did. Well, here's the thing. The Bible says the

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Holy Spirit of God is the one who gave us the Scriptures. And that's in Peter.

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And so the Holy Spirit of God wouldn't contradict Himself. I don't believe they were contradicting themselves.

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Well, they are. Because the Bible has been changed so much. Well, that's the second point I wanted to touch. You have the

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Bible, right? And you have these words. And there's all these different directions that you can go and you can take those words. But I don't believe

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Heavenly Father ever stops talking to His children. And for some people, it's the Book of Mormon, it's modern -day

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Revelation, whatever. Draws a point so that you can find that straight line, so you don't have to always have all these questions and wandering back and forth.

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Well, that's still begging the question as to whether or not Heavenly Father revealed by this church is the same

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Heavenly Father in Scripture. Because... It is the same Heavenly Father. Well, it's not. He's eternal and His course is one round.

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Well, in Mormonism, Joseph Smith taught that we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.

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I'll refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see. And so he actually said he refutes the idea that you're suggesting that He has been

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God from all eternity. Well, actually, if you want to get really, like, doctrinal, we're all made from mass and intelligence a long, long time ago, so we are all eternal.

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Right. You believe all matter is eternal. Yes. But the Bible teaches in Psalm 90 verse 2 that from eternity into eternity, you are

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God. That God has been God from all eternity. He didn't become God. Now, I just want to address the thing you said about the

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Bible. You mentioned several times, like, different translations and everything else. Yeah. Do you know how we got the Bible? How we got the

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Bible? Yeah. As in, like, how we got the Bible as it is now? Yeah. And how the Bible came about? Yeah, just because when you say there's all these different translations, you're making...

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I'm wondering what you believe about the Bible and how we got it. Because Jesus says in Matthew 24,

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Heaven and earth will pass away, and my words will by no means pass away. So He said He would guard His word, protect

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His word, it would never pass away. Joseph Smith taught that it did pass away. And so there's a...

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He did. God's word never passed away. Well, Joseph... But there are parts... Well, let me quote Joseph. Well, let me... That's not in the Bible. There are lots of parts from the

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Bible that have been taken out of the Bible. Well, let me answer that real fast. And so how are you supposed to know if those are true? I'll tell you. I'll tell you.

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Joseph did teach that the Bible was missing many plain and precious parts. It is. It is. Well, a moment ago you said it didn't.

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No, I didn't say it didn't. Okay. Well, Joseph says that it's missing many plain and precious parts. Jesus says His words would never pass away.

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So now Jesus and Joseph... His words haven't passed away. They've been restored. Jesus and Joseph... Jesus and Joseph are in collision with one another at that point.

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I don't believe that. I'm sorry. Well... You have to look at Joseph Smith's revelation and his testimony about the

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Bible and where it came from. The Bible... Mormons believe the Bible is correct insofar that it is translated correctly.

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But again... Of course. But again, my question to you is whether you know where we got the Bible from. Because when you mention translations, it sounds like you don't know the difference between transmission and translation.

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Well, the Bible are records that people wrote that were either prophets of God in the

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Old Testament or in the New Testament, like disciples and such. Right. And how do we have what's in our hands today? They wrote this down because...

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Well, I guess you said inspired, just breathed into literally by God. I learned that when I was Methodist.

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Okay. And... Lots of different religions. And so that's taken... It's written down and hopefully, if you're lucky, the translations and when it has been put from language to language, there were no errors.

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There's the error. Put from language to language. That demonstrates that you've either been misled or you just haven't understood how we've gotten our

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Bibles. Say, just take the New Testament alone. Jesus says that His words would never pass away. And you can demonstrate.

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We have over 5 ,700 manuscript pieces and copies of just the Greek New Testament. That's the original language.

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But His words did not pass away. Well, let me finish. I don't believe that. Well, this church teaches that the Bible has been corrupted.

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And generally speaking, it's been corrupted wherever it disagrees with Mormon doctrine. But the

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Bible has been transmitted to us in the original language, 5 ,700 and counting manuscript pieces and copies.

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Well, let me finish. I'll finish explaining. Over 19 ,000 early translations from the

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Greek into Latin, Ethiopian, Coptic, and other languages. And so we have, if you put them on top of one another, over one mile, literally a mile deep of text of the

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New Testament itself, transmitted through history in the original language and translations.

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Now, we don't go from the Greek to Latin to English to German to Japanese. What we do is we take the

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Greek text and we translate from the Greek text into English. And so if you were to say to me, I don't know if I could trust that translation,

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I would tell you to go to seminary, learn Greek, and then do your own translation. Now, the 1611 King James is an

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English translation from 1611. It's very good. It could be sharpened up into English for today.

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The ESV is another modern English translation. It's fantastic. So is the NASB. But those are

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English translations from the Greek text. I can demonstrate to you that when God says, the grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our

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God stands forever, that he's actually kept that promise, and he's kept that... Of course he has. Well, this church teaches that the

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Bible has been corrupted. The Bible has not been corrupted by God. What Joseph said. I didn't say that God did it, that they claim that.

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Joseph says it's missing... But we have an agency to technically corrupt anything that is given to us. Except that God, who is sovereign and declares the end from the beginning, said that he would preserve his word, and he does according to his will in the host of heaven.

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He has preserved his word, and you can see that through Joseph Smith's translations of the

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Bible. Well, Joseph Smith demonstrated that he could not translate dead languages. Did you know that? That he demonstrated that he cannot?

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One example of just the Book of Mormon itself. In 1830, the Book of Mormon was published, and Joseph says that it was the most correct book of any book on earth, and that a man could get closer to God by obeying its precepts than any other book.

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And yet, from the 1830 version to today's version, I have a copy in my bag right now, I'll show you with all the changes marked.

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There's about 4 ,000 changes from the 1830 version to today's version. Doctrinal changes, stuff taken out, there's racial remarks and slurs made in there that have been changed to today's version.

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Many changes have been made. About 4 ,000 changes from the original 1830 version, but there's more.

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Have you read the Pearl of Great Price? I have. Do you know where that came from? It came from things that he found, and I personally believe that he was led to God to find those things.

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In 1835, Michael Chandler came through Ohio, and in 1835, he had an

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Egyptian exhibit. The Latter -day Saints saw the exhibit, and they saw these scrolls, and it was

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Egyptian. And at the time, Egyptian was a dead language in the 19th century at that point because the

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Rosetta Stone hadn't made its way over yet, its information on how to translate each Egyptian. Now, what

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Joseph said when he saw the scrolls was that this is the book of Abraham by his own hand.

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God has preserved it for us. The church gathered together an enormous amount of money to buy all of this.

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And he got it, and he commenced his translation from the scroll. And he began his translation.

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He had a journal and diaries. He made his own Egyptian alphabet. At the time, nobody could check them because Egyptian was a dead language.

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He said he was translating the book of Abraham, Pearl of Great Price. He never finished it.

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He was murdered in Carthage before he finished the translation, so it was an incomplete work. Now, the scroll disappeared.

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You can look all this up. This is something you can look up for yourself. Looking things up on the Internet is kind of bad.

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No, no, in your own church's history. I have a copy of my bag if you want to see it. Everyone thought the scroll was destroyed in a fire.

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And in the 1960s, the scroll was rediscovered in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and it was delivered back over to your church.

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In the 1960s, your church affirmed this is in fact the scroll. Your church was excited.

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I've talked to friends who are Mormons and said it's all they talked about when it was produced. This is the scroll.

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What'd they say? We're going to prove to the world that Joseph Smith's a prophet. Why? Because we have the original scroll that he translated the

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Pearl of Great Price from. We have the Pearl of Great Price. We're going to show that he could in fact translate dead languages, and he had the gift of a seer and a prophet.

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Your church began the translation of that text. They found out a year later, after they worked on it, not one word in it was consistent with what

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Joseph had come up with. So how did they know the language of Egyptian if you said the language was dead? It was dead at the time because the

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Rosetta Stone was the key to unlocking the Egyptian language. That information at the time...

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So you're saying that the Rosetta Stone is superior to the power of God. No, no, no, no, you're misunderstanding. The way that we were able now to decipher

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Egyptian is through... that was a great tool, a useful tool in how to do it.

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Now we can read Egyptian, and we know that Joseph Smith's Pearl of Great Price, his Book of Abraham, was not the

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Book of Abraham. It was the Book of the Dead or the Book of Breathings. It was a pagan Egyptian funerary text.

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Common. It was a common text, sweetie. What's that? Have I talked to archaeologists about translations?

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Well, archaeologists don't necessarily specifically do translations. Sure. Sure.

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Sure, that's the Rosetta Stone. That's how the Rosetta Stone worked. Well, because the

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Rosetta Stone was the key to unlocking the Egyptian language. However, here's the point. Joseph Smith took this scroll, this papyrus, right?

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He said that it was the Book of Abraham from Abraham himself. The scroll itself, though, wasn't even from the era of Abraham.

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Not even from the same era. And it actually was a pagan funerary text.

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And here's the... No, it wasn't. It is. And I can show you. Would you like to see? Would you like me to show you? I can show you a copy of the actual papyrus.

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Which Christ? Which Christ? There was only one Christ. That's right.

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Is He God? Is He God? No. Okay, that's a false

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Christ. Jesus says, unless you believe that ego eimi, I am, you will die in your sins.

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You're going to die in your sins. See, I am is the name of God that He has identified

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Himself as. But here's the thing. Why would God die? God doesn't have to die.

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So if Jesus Christ died, then God died. Jesus is God and man. And He died in His humanity.

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You believe He's God and man. Yes. So wouldn't that make sense that Heavenly Father and Mary were His parents?

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If He's God and man? No, no, no. Jesus... Let me explain. John chapter 1. Have you read John in the New Testament? Yeah. Okay, John chapter 1.

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It says, In the beginning was the Word. And it means literally, in the beginning with no stopping point.

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Forever and ever and ever was Jesus. And it says the

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Word, Jesus was with God. The Word was God. And it says He was in the beginning with God.

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All things, He created all things. And it says without Him, nothing came into being that's come into being.

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That includes Satan. He created everything, including Satan, according to John chapter 1. Yes, Satan was once a...

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Spirit. Spiritual child of... Yes, but John 1 denies that. It says that Jesus created Satan. Well, Christ was...

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What does that mean that the Bible wouldn't be fully correct? What? Why is that? What? Because, well, you know,

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Lucifer was kicked out of heaven. And he's called an angel, right? Sure. And what you said was that He created everything.

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Jesus created everything. Well, God... Jesus created the earth. No, well, the Bible teaches in John chapter 1...

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Anyone got a Bible for me? In John chapter 1, verse 1, it says, In the beginning was the Word. And the

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Word was with God. And the Word was God. It says He was in the beginning with God. And it says that all things came into being through Him.

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And without Him, nothing came into being that's come into being. So it says in John chapter 1 that Jesus created everything in existence.

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That includes the heavens, the earth. It includes the angels. Which means that the Jesus of Scripture is the creator of Lucifer.

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The Jesus of this church is Lucifer's brother. Sweetie, that's a different Christ. That's a Christ that cannot save you.

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It cannot save you. I'm sorry, but it's not your place to tell me whether or not Christ can save me. Well, no, Christ can.

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Christ can save you. Christ can save you. The true and living

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Christ can save you. Not the Christ that you've believed in of this church. The Christ of this church is a figment of Joseph Smith's imagination.

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I'm sorry, but... Well, notice that you haven't been able... There are a million different things that you can come up with to conflict my church.

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Well, how about just the one? There are a million different things I can come up to conflict your church. Sweetheart, how about just one? How about just the one? Well, Heavenly Father has revealed

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Himself in His Word. And that Word denies the Jesus of this church. There is no Jesus of this church.

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Yes, sweetie, the Christ of this church is a false Christ. To give you an example, you've already said that the

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Jesus of Islam is not the Jesus you believe in. No, Christ is Himself. There is no Jesus of Islam or Jesus of Mormonism.

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So, did Jesus die on a cross? Islam was just incorrect about Christ. That doesn't mean that there's a different Christ. Well, they teach that Jesus Christ is not the

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Divine Son of God. He is a messenger, Messiah being translated into messenger. Let me ask Kim real fast.

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Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead? I believe that He asked

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Him, Father, to give up His spirit. But do you believe He died on a cross and rose from the dead? Yes. Well, Muslims believe that He didn't die on a cross and He didn't rise from the dead.

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Do you believe in that Jesus? No. No. That's a different Christ, you see. Well, but the thing is that they're not even talking about...

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They're not correctly talking about Christ. Sure, exactly. I'm not saying that... And neither are they, sweetheart. And that's why we care about you.

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Well, I care about you, too. That's why I'm having this conversation. I know, and I appreciate that. But the thing is that I don't think that doing this to people is positively...

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Can I ask you one question about that? When missionaries... Were you a missionary?

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Yeah. Yeah? Where'd you go? Nebraska. Nebraska. Oh, you... Man, you went to Nebraska of all places?

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Well, that's where I had to go. Oh, yeah, yeah. You got the lottery, right?

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Where they pick the number? No, that's not true. I'm just messing with you. I'm teasing with you. I know that people joke about that.

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So, when missionaries go door -to -door... You were a missionary in Nebraska, so you know. When you go door -to -door, what's the first lesson you teach people?

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Yes, and what do you teach them the first what? Okay, but the first vision, right?

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Yeah, so you get the first vision account, right? And in the first vision account, when you go door -to -door...

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When missionaries go door -to -door every day in Mesa, the first thing they tell people about the first vision is that he was confused about which church to join, and that God the

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Father told him to join none of the churches because why? Because they were all... What?

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All wrong. All wrong. All their creeds were what? Well, just let me at least get it out.

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All their creeds were what? An abomination... Come on now,

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I can't know this before you do. Okay, all their creeds... Well, that's because you study it to try to make us look stupid. No, because we love you, because we care about you.

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All their creeds are an abomination, all their professors are corrupt. You said that we shouldn't be doing this, but every day...

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I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing this. But you're criticizing the fact that we're coming here really kind of trying to refute what you believe, but when your church goes door -to -door every day in this area, they're telling people that all their creeds,

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Christians' creeds are an abomination, all their professors, that's us, are corrupt.

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And so, this... You as people are not corrupt, no. Well, the Bible... I don't believe that you are a corrupt man.

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I believe that we have different beliefs and my one is true, but that doesn't mean that you as a son of God are corrupt.

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Well, Joseph taught that there's a church of God and a church of the devil. Which one am I a part of? I don't know, you tell me.

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I reject the God of this church and the gospel of this church, which church am I a part of?

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You're not a part of God's church. I'm a part of the church of the what? Of the devil. Of the devil, see? So, this is a serious...

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You believe I'm a part of the church of the devil, right? Well, I believe that you're lost and you need Christ, and I have a passion and a burden for you.

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I am not here to wound you and hurt you. I'm here not to win an argument with you, but to share

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Christ with you, the true Christ and the true gospel. The church...

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The God of this church teaches you that God is not the first, He's not the last.

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You can become a God, but the God of the Bible says, I'm the first and the last. Besides me, there is no God.

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He says, He's the only God in the heavens above and on the earth below. There is no other. I'm sorry,

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I'll let her ask the question then. Okay. I know that I got...

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I know that I have black... What's it? Blackfoot and Choctaw Indian in me. That's my

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Native American history. Well, I would encourage you...

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Have you done any studies outside of what your church has given to you about the

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Book of Mormon, on the history of the Book of Mormon? Have you ever personally researched outside of your church's literature and materials the history of the

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Book of Mormon? Have you ever done that? I'm just asking. I'm curious if you've ever done it. Okay. Well, let me encourage you with this.

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Not only do you have a massive amount of plagiarism in the Book of Mormon from the King James Version Bible, which is interesting...

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That's not plagiarism. I mean, Jesus Christ quoted the Old Testament and people in the

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New Testament quoted the Old Testament. Except there's a problem. There's a problem with that. The 1611 King James Version is a 1611

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English translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Why were Jewish people in the

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B .C. era using King James Version passages?

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Maybe you're right that they were translated in a more correct way. But there's something else. The Book of Mormon...

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This is just for you to maybe look at on your own. The Book of Mormon mentions cities and battles and things that never existed.

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It mentions things in the Book of Mormon like animals, silk, glass, things that didn't exist in the time period that is purported to have been written.

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And so, no, the Book of Mormon is not a history of the Americas. And including the issue of DNA is another issue you want to look into.

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The DNA issue of Hebrews and Indians. And there's no connection between the

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Hebrew Israelites and Indians. Well, the only thing...

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I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to, but the only thing... Yeah, you'd have to give me some examples to talk about.

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Maybe you'd think of some. But... Because I wouldn't want to just try to broadly speak to it.

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I'd want to address it one at a time. Well, Joseph did.

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Do you realize the story that Joseph gave about the Native Americans was common folklore in his area during the day?

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It was common. Those were common stories. Joseph didn't come up with a very creative story. He adopted and borrowed from stories that were circulating in his area at the time.

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It's all stuff you could look into, sweetie. But the bigger issue is not that. I wanted to say that to you.

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The bigger issue is not Joseph Smith's fabrication. The bigger issue is who is

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God and how do you and I have a reconciled relationship with God. Because Joseph taught a different God and a different gospel.

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And Jesus... I appreciate it. You do what now? I'm already saved. You're saved by who?

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My Savior. Who? My Christ. Is He Lucifer's brother? That's not Christ. He can't save you.

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Jesus said, He's the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him. Of course.

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Yes, okay, but... The atonement. But this Jesus is one God among many gods,

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Lucifer's brother, and His blood cannot save you from all of your sin. You must through your own obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel be righteous enough in yourself to go through exaltation to become a god one day.

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That's not the God of the Bible. That's not the gospel of Scripture. Jesus is the eternal God. There are no gods before God.

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You will never become one one day. God says He's the first and the last. But He's... Jesus Christ is

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God's only begotten Son. Only begotten... The text, it means monoghanes, unique and one of a kind.

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It doesn't mean that Heavenly Father produced Jesus sexually. Monoghanes is a title of the

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Messiah. Begotten to beget something is... Right, except you're using English there. The word monoghanes means unique and one of a kind.

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It doesn't mean produced sexually. That's what it means. It's a title of the Messiah. But just, can

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I ask you just this one thing? Wait, it's a title of Messiah? Messiah means messenger. What? Messiah.

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Yeah, I'm saying that Son of Man is a title. Only begotten of the Father is

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Christ's relationship to the Father. It's not that Jesus was created by the Father. Proof of that is in John chapter 1.

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Jesus has existed from all eternity with the Father and He is God. He wasn't created by the

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Father. That's in John chapter 1. Another one is Colossians 1 .16. So was Jesus perfect in His life here on earth?

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Absolutely. Well, you see, the thing is that in the Bible, Christ said to be perfected as God is perfect.

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He said be... And then later when He came to the Americas, which is after He was resurrected, He asked us to become perfect as He is perfect.

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It's begging the question. It's whether or not He... It's not begging the question. It is because the question I'm challenging you on, what

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I'm challenging you on is whether or not the Jesus of this church and the story about Him coming to the

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Americas is true. And the way to figure that out is not based upon your own subjective feelings.

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There are people that feel very strongly that it's perfectly alright to sleep together with your boyfriend or girlfriend before marriage and to live that way.

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They feel... Well, how do you... Why do you say that? Who says? Which commandment?

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Okay, so very good. You just did the right thing. When I said, I feel this is true, you went to the

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Word of God and refuted it. Amen. But watch, what you don't do is you don't do with their revelation what you just did with me.

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Oh, I did because actually, before I was LDS, so like less than two years ago,

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I was threatened to get kicked out of my home and I said, there is no way I'm going to join this church if I'm falling for something that's fake.

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And I cannot... If God has told you something, and I just mean as like, oh, this feels okay. If God has told you something, like supposedly

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He's told you or told me, will you ever be able to deny that? If it's from His Word, never could deny it.

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But if it was my own feeling and perception, I can be wrong. The Bible says the heart is deceitful above all things.

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Well, it is because I'm showing you, I'm showing you that your feeling conflicts with His Word. Give me...

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I'll give you one verse and you tell me what you think. Isaiah 43 .10 Before me there was no

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God formed, neither shall there be after me. Joseph says there were and that you can become one one day.

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What would you say to God when He says that to you? Well, it talked about...

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It's either Matthew or Mark, but He said, is it not written in your law or something about...

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Is it not written in your law that you can become gods? You were taught that in seminary, right?

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Or your missionary training classes? You're told to go to John 10 when Christians challenge you on there's only one

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God. So in John 10... I have the missionary... Right, well, it doesn't say that.

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In John 10, my friend, it says, I and the Father are one. And they picked up stones to kill

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Him. And He says, Many good works have I shown you from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? And they said, For thy good works we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, that you being a man make yourself

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God. So He claimed to be God, right? Equal with the Father. And so then, they are going to stone

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Him. These judges of Israel are going to stone Him, right? The Messiah. And He quotes to them,

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Psalm 82, which is what you said, I said ye are gods. Psalm 82 is not a passage you want applied to yourself.

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Psalm 82 is where God condemns the unjust judges of Israel and mocks them, I said ye are gods.

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You will die like men, essentially God condemns them. So what I'm saying is, the passage Jesus quotes from is the unjust judges passage of Psalm 82.

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It's not a passage you want applied to yourself and it wasn't Jesus saying, ye are gods. But, real fast, the passage

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I quoted was Isaiah 43 .10. Before me there was no

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God formed, neither shall there be after me. That denies everything Joseph taught about God. Real fast, my friend, you got to answer that one.

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Isaiah 43 .10. You can go to it in your passage, you can read the chapter before, the whole chapter, the chapter after.

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Sure. Oh, well, one of the things we hope to do is, you've been super sweet to me tonight, we've had a gentle and gracious conversation, we want to show people not only the gospel, but also that Christians and Mormons can have friendship and interaction.

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Mormons are Christians. Well, that, again, begs the question, whether or not you guys follow the true

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Christ. Because John says in his epistle, 2

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John 9, If anyone goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, he does not have God. The test is not what you feel, it's what does the word of God, the teaching of Christ say.

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And if I'm wrong about a feeling, I'm supposed to reject that if it conflicts with scripture.

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Describe what you mean by that. Revelations. I believe God has revealed himself, yes. Well, I get what you're saying.

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I do believe that God interacts with us and he gives us, we do get emotions and feelings and all that's, yes.

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Explain that. What do you mean by that? A lot of people reject Christianity in general, not just Mormonism or Islam or whatever.

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A lot of people reject religion in general and the religion that, you know, you have come to know. Yeah. Because they feel like their feelings do not match fact.

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And you are saying my feelings do not match fact, which is an okay argument, but my question is, and this is probably good for other people to hear as well as just me.

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Sure. How have you come to this religion and knowing that even though there are not 100 % proof,

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I mean, yes, they found some of ancient scripture that's been restored. How do you know? That's a good question. First and foremost, the reason that I do know is solely by the grace of God opening my eyes to believe in Christ and that's the truth.

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However, when you talk about like God and his existence, I'm not just saying your feelings gotta match the facts and what you perceive are the facts.

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I'm saying that God's word is the objective revelation. It comes from his very own mouth. So it's the truth.

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It's the standard. How do you know the standard of God is truth? Okay. So if we start at the bottom there, I would say, let me give you an easy one just quickly.

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If you reject God's word, you're reduced to foolishness. How do you know that's true? Okay, and I'll give you an example.

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If you reject God's word, his revelation, you can't make sense of anything at all.

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You can't have a... Some people would argue that you could. No, you can't. I'll give you an example. The atheist, okay, let's try it.

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Let's get it off us for a second, okay? The atheist believes that his ancestors were fish, right?

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He believes that he evolved from the goo and now he's a philosopher, right?

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And the atheist says that we evolved through unguided processes to get here.

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There is no God. There's no immaterial realm. We're all just matter in motion, right? He says, no

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God. Not the God of the Bible. I reject him. And then the atheist tells you that your God's a big meanie and he's immoral.

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But you see, there's no such thing as immorality if all of our ancestors were fish and we live in a godless universe. All the races matter in motion.

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There's no sense of moral whatsoever. There you go. There's no right or wrong. So you reject God's revelation, you're reduced to a fool.

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That's a good way to start the conversation with the unbeliever who rejects God's revelation. So what helped you not reject

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God's word besides the fact that the scriptures say that? Well, God is truth, okay?

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He is... How have you come to know that God is truth? Okay, because God is first and foremost by his grace revealed because I'm a sinner and I would have rejected...

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Exactly. Amen. Okay. I would have rejected God and stayed in my hatred towards God had

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God not in his grace opened my eyes and my heart to him. That's first and foremost. He did that with me and that's why I'm a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints. But that's what we're asking you. How do you know that the God of the Bible did open your heart and it wasn't deception or your own sin blinding you?

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There's a lot of different ways that I've come to know that. One is through my personal experience, my answer with prayers, the help that I've had...

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You're back there again. No, no, no. I'm not done. The fact that my family that is from Palestine and it's very, very strong in our family because of records that we have that go back and back and back to the time of Christ and before and things such as that.

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Well, if you took the Muslim, put him next to you, he says, he says,

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I believe it's true. I feel that it's true. I have this burning in my heart that it's true.

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But Jesus didn't die for your sins, didn't rise from the dead. The Jehovah's Witness stands next to you right here and says,

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Jesus Christ is the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. He's Michael the archangel. Real fast. Then, over here, stands next to them the atheist that says, in my personal experience,

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I feel like atheism has freed me. It's given me a life of joy and happiness now that I've been freed from the chains of religion.

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Right? And I know it's true. Our ancestors were fish. The Christian over here says, there's only one

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God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, eternally existent.

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There will only be salvation in Christ and Christ alone. And it is only through faith in Him.

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Those are all different stories. The Christian has their own feelings and experience. You have your own feelings and experience.

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But the Bible says, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

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If you trust your heart and your feelings as a fallen, sinful person, like we all are, you will be led astray.

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Then how were you not led astray if you were a sinner and you followed the faith? Here's how you and I know that we're in line with the truth.

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Jesus says, thy word is truth. If your feeling and my feeling ever contradicts the word of God, we're wrong.

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He's right. No matter how much you've been passionate about it, if you've followed His church for two years and given your whole life to it, but you find when

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God sends His people here to love you and to give you the truth, you find that you were wrong, it's not a time to despair.

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It's a time to rejoice. God has given you His truth. I've shown you tonight... But fortunately for me, my beliefs are not wrong.

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Well, I've shown you tonight that Jesus is the creator of Lucifer and not His brother, and you haven't even responded to it.

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You've just rejected it. That's God loving you when He comes to you with His word and He says, look, listen, the fact that you don't...

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He did come to me, you know. I disagree, but...

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But what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul? When you say, you know, it feels true to me, it seems right to me,

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I've had this experience, but if you lose your soul following a false prophet and a false gospel...

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I'm not going to lose my soul. Sweetheart, you are. You're lost. I'm lost. I've been lost at the

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Methodist church. I've been lost as a Muslim. You're believing in a Christ that has no power to save you. And I've also been lost in Messianic Judaism.

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You have no... And I've been lost in the Unity and New Thought movement. But right now... Sweetheart, you have no

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Savior that can save you. I'm sorry, but... He has no power to save you. The Savior does have power to save me. Lucifer's brother is not a real

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Christ. He cannot save you. His atonement never happened because that's a false Christ. It's not a false

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Christ. Jesus... The Bible says we are justified apart from works of law solely through what

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Christ did on His cross. This church teaches you that it's not only a different Christ, but you have to, through your own obedience to the laws and ordinances of the

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Gospel, be righteous enough to be accepted by Heavenly Father. To be saved? No.

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The Bible says we believe... Christ atoned even for those who are murderers and thieves.

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There's a difference. I think you're confusing salvation with exaltation. No, no, no. And that's something that you would probably want to talk about.

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I'm trying to... I'm getting to your ultimate goal. Your ultimate goal is exaltation. I'm still in high school so I've got to go.

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But I want to thank you because we... Yeah, I'm listening. Thank you because you guys coming out here and teaching us this has brought more members to our church than the missionaries that we have.

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So thank you so much and have a good night. That's not true, sweetheart. But here you go. You want to take a look at the references? No, I'm good. Thank you. Okay. I pray you turn from your sins, sweetheart.