May 2, 2017 Show with Eric Wallace on “Uniting Church and Home: A Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community”

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May 3, 2017

ERIC WALLACE, President of the Institute for Uniting Church and Home who will discuss: “Uniting Church and Home: A BLUEPRINT for REBUILDING CHURCH Community”

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:56: Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet
01:11: Earth listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you a happy Tuesday on this
01:20: May 2nd, 2017, and I look forward to interviewing today for the very first time
01:28: Eric Wallace, who is president of the Institute for Uniting Church and Home, and today we are going to be discussing his book,
01:38: Uniting Church and Home, a Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time,
01:48: Eric Wallace. Oh, thank you, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here and speak with you and to your listeners today.
01:55: And in studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. And hello once again. And Reverend Buzz Taylor and I met
02:04: Eric Wallace just about a year ago at the Harvey Cedars Bible Conference Center when we were both attending the
02:15: Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals Faithful Pastors Retreat, and during a dinner or lunch break or perhaps a breakfast break, we were sitting at the same table providentially with Eric Wallace and got to know him, and not long after that got into discussions about having an interview, and I'm glad that this is finally, all by God's providence, all falling into place.
02:45: Tell us something about, before we even get into the Institute for Uniting Church and Home, and before we get into your book,
02:53: Uniting Church and Home, I would like to know about your own personal background as far as the religion of your youth, if any, and how providentially our
03:07: Lord in His sovereign grace drew you to Himself and saved you.
03:14: Sure. Well, I was raised in a Christian home with faithful Christian parents, and that, just then being faithfully married was a huge blessing to me, a huge impact on my life.
03:29: My father was an officer in the Church, and so they raised us, you know, according to, you know, the
03:37: Covenant, and all of my siblings, with the exception of my two oldest siblings, went to Christian school, and so it was a growth in just in coming to understand and claim as my own just the truth that Jesus Christ died for sinners.
04:02: And so I was, early on in my walk, I struggled mightily with doubt, and I just, you know,
04:13: I thought, is this the sin that's going to do me in? Because I'm, after all, I'm a Christian, I'm not supposed to be sinning, and I struggled horribly.
04:23: And actually, it was interesting how God, you know, used that struggle over, you know, the course of a few years to kind of lay a foundation for what
04:35: He was going to have me do in this ministry, which we'll get into later. But I really finally came around to understand much later than I wished that I would have just what it meant that Jesus Christ had died for sinners, that His death was not only sufficient for my justification, but that it was sufficient for my sanctification, that positionally,
05:02: I have in Christ all that I need to live a life of obedience to Him.
05:07: And of course, that obedience includes repentance from sin, and you know, the desire to grow, and how
05:15: I grow, you know, is all the work of Christ in me. And so I will say that my experience is probably not all that different from many
05:23: Christians who think that because they pray a prayer, all of a sudden, you know, life changes, and you're all of a sudden just this, you know, perfect person.
05:32: And we all know deep down that that's not the way it is, that we struggle with the flesh throughout our life on this earth.
05:40: That is a struggle that will not end until that day, that glorious day that we actually see
05:45: Jesus face -to -face. So, you know, coming to know all that Christ has done for me has, which came, you know, probably 20 years after I would first say that I came to realize that I was a true believer in Jesus Christ, that came awfully late.
06:08: It came, and there were a lot of years in there where I struggled and was not growing, and just, it had a tremendous impact upon my life negatively.
06:22: And as I look back on it now, you know, there was just a lot of wasted time. But I am excited about where I am with Christ because of what he's done for me, and just struggling and seeking to live out of that richness every day, and not just to live it out for myself, but to live it out as a husband and a father in my home.
06:46: And the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. You said this struggle went on for like 20 -some years, is that correct?
06:55: Yeah, I would say, you know, I'm a
07:00: Presbyterian, and so I have a covenantal theology that I hold to, but my
07:07: Christian school experience was in a fundamentalist Baptist school. And so those years were confounding to me because, you know, the emphasis was on walking the aisle and making a profession of faith at the front of the church, and I struggled with that horribly.
07:27: Because, again, you know, that was the focus of the whole message was, you know, walking the aisle, and if you walk the aisle, then you're a believer.
07:35: And I'm like, how can I be a believer? I still struggle with sin. And so that created a huge disconnect in my theology, and thus my growth in Christ.
07:47: Well, what I was thinking specifically, too, was that in a 20 -year struggle, were there some years in there where you just pretty much gave up and didn't struggle with it?
07:55: No, no, I never gave up, because the Holy Spirit is alive in the heart of a believer, and so he struggles with us through those times.
08:10: So I never gave up, but I just wish that I would have learned back then what
08:17: I have learned now and what I'm doing now through my ministry. Well, I'm assuming, although you believe in covenant theology and are a
08:26: Presbyterian, you still believe that Presbyterian parents can have children that are lost.
08:33: I mean, there is a possibility, is there not, that you were lost for a good number of those years? Well, no,
08:40: I believe that I was a true believer. I don't want to give the wrong impression about the struggle.
08:48: I mean, there are everyday life issues that I think we all struggle with, but I was just seeing that there was no power in simply memorizing verses about not getting angry or whatever the sin might be, and trying to just, you know, out of my own strength, obey verses in the
09:08: Bible so that I could be like a true Christian, and I realized that that wasn't working.
09:15: So I think that the strength of raising a child in the covenant is that they learn, you know, these truths as they grow up, and they learn them as if they are truly a believer, and indeed, you know, in our theology and our polity, you know, children are brought up as members of the
09:32: Church. You know, they do need to come to that place where they make that public profession a faith, where they really do, you know, outwardly, publicly claim faith in Christ as their own, and certainly that was the case with me.
09:48: But growing in that, you know, there was a piece of the foundation that I didn't have that, you know, that I wish that I would have had that we're going to talk a little bit about here in our talk today.
10:02: So tell us what eventually led you to form what is now known as the
10:08: Institute for Uniting Church and Home, and obviously give us some background of exactly what that is.
10:15: Sure, well, I had mentioned that my father was an officer in a
10:21: Presbyterian church, and right out of college, the session of that church called me to run a ministry that effectively equipped parents to teach and train their children.
10:34: We were working with the private school issue, struggling with having a private school as a church, as well as homeschooling back, this was back in the 80s, so there was the homeschooling movement was ramping up.
10:48: And as I was leading that ministry as a single,
10:53: I was not even married, and I was a little bit struggling with wanting to do that, because I was telling the elders, guys,
11:01: I mean, I'm not married, how can I lead a parent -equipped ministry? And they said, you understand, you know, these fundamental truths about training children, because you've grown up in a home where they were practiced.
11:15: And so it was a challenge for me in that position, to have that kind of a ministry, and I had to learn really, really fast what it was that, you know, that the parents in this particular case was working with a lot of homeschooling parents, and what they needed, and kind of what
11:36: I came to realize, Chris and Buzz, was that what these parents needed to teach and train their children was not so much how to help them with homework or how to help them teach or help parents teach math and science and English.
11:52: You know, what was really needed here was a relationship, and that it very quickly, the ministry very quickly became much more focused on just helping moms to be moms and dads to be dads.
12:10: And so that was kind of the focus initially for several years, but then it began to dawn on us that, well, wait a minute, what's the church's role in helping the home?
12:25: And why is it that the church and the home seem to be, you know, at odds so often?
12:32: Why do so many families, so many people that go to church feel like that the church is working against them rather than actually working for them?
12:40: And then, you know, on the other side of the coin, there's a lot of, you know, church leaders that are wondering, what's wrong with the home?
12:46: Why aren't people at the church supporting the programs and getting the help that we're offering them?
12:52: So we began to look at what we were doing in terms of things, traditional things like children's ministry, youth ministry, singles ministry, and we really began to see that those affinity programs really began to get in the way of the covenantal -type relationships that God has set forth in His Word as the means through which people's lives are actually transformed by the
13:22: Gospel of Jesus Christ. So we made some changes in those ministries.
13:28: For instance, one of my oversights was children's ministry.
13:34: We had a girls' ministry, a boys' ministry, and so we basically put them together and called it
13:40: Fathers and Sons, Mothers and Daughters, and the whole ministry was built around, you know, parents training their children.
13:48: We had fathers that actually had never taught their children the
13:53: Word of God in the home, and they were stepping forward and learning how to do that for the very first time, which was very, very exciting.
14:04: And then that, you know, morphed into, you know, looking at youth ministry, and so we made the same kind of changes with youth ministry.
14:12: So initially, a lot of the things that we were doing there back in those early years was just focusing on the programs, and how do we kind of work with the church programs so that the family unit is kept together as a matter of course, or I should say as the rule rather than the exception.
14:36: But then it began to be apparent to me, as I was getting opportunities to go out and speak, and my book,
14:46: I don't believe that my book had been published by this time, and let's remember my book was published about 20 years ago, so this is real somewhat ancient history, but what
14:56: I really began to discover was that even with trying to pull the family together in the ministry programs of the church, we still were not able to address the real need.
15:11: And brothers, let me say that the real need in the Church is a rediscovery of the
15:17: Gospel of Jesus Christ, not only for the justification of the unbeliever, but also as the means of sanctification in the life of the believer.
15:28: Amen. Preach it, preach it. And this is completely lost in our
15:34: Church. Maybe I'll take that back, say completely, there are churches that I think are working it, but in my experience, my limited experience, when
15:46: I have calls from people, going all the way back to this time, what
15:52: I discovered was that people just thought, well, you know, we're going to church, our kids are in children's ministry, the kids are in youth ministry, we're in a couple's ministry, you know, and everything's fine.
16:03: So we're good Christians and basically we're going to be able, you know, to overcome the challenges in life.
16:10: But what we've learned, of course, through various studies that Barna has done, whatnot, you know, over the last probably 20 years especially, is that, you know, there's not been a whole lot of real heart transformation that's taking place.
16:26: That what's happened is that people have trusted in what they were doing, you know, going to church almost as if, you know,
16:33: I'm just going to be at church and growth is going to come by osmosis because I'm listening to the sermon. But the reality is that the programs of the
16:42: Church, while helpful, and I'm not crashing programs, I'm simply saying that I believe that what's happened in the recent history of the
16:51: Church is that we've depended on programs and the things that we're doing at church, the activities, good as they are, we've depended on them to do what only the
17:01: Holy Spirit does when we apply the gospel in our lives and relationships. And relationships are a critical part of the ministry picture that I believe has been just, it's been thrown by the wayside,
17:19: I think, in a lot of cases. And I don't mean that in the sense that people have specifically said, oh, we don't need relationships, they throw them aside, but we have just, we've become so enamored with the traditional
17:33: Church as it is that we've forgotten, I guess, that, you know, we still need these powerful relationships in the home and in the
17:42: Church, you know, that follow along covenantal lines, particularly, you know, to make sure that people are walking with Christ, that they are walking in the way of Christ, that they are looking at the issues in their life in a way that they can see how the gospel addresses those issues.
18:00: So the book, I said, I wrote about 20 years ago, and all of what
18:06: I just said was not nearly as well formed then as it is now. But even back then, when
18:13: I wrote the book, one of the chapters is talking about the gospel, you know, being applied by faith.
18:19: So I would say that back then, you know, I was thinking, yes, we need to be able to focus on relationships much more intentionally, and, you know, the family and the
18:30: Church have relationships in them that God has designed, and we need to, those need to come back to the surface, and we need to emphasize those.
18:41: So that was good. But I think pretty soon after the book came out, you know, as I saw other people beginning to reach similar conclusions about, you know, taking a new look at Church ministry, what
18:57: I began to see more and more was that here, even still, and this, even now, you know, there are pastors and there are families that think that just because they're doing
19:09: Church a certain way, they have a certain program or don't have a certain program, that their lives and their children's lives are actually being transformed more into the image of Christ.
19:21: And so, you know, today, you know, when I get a call, I'll get a call from a pastor. Here's a pastor that called me from a southern state, and he had been given my name from the
19:36: PCA headquarters, and he had said, you know, I've been struggling with our families.
19:41: We've really wanted to see our families minister as units, and we've not been able to get them to minister, you know, to minister their neighbors, minister in the programs of the
19:51: Church. And I said, well, what have you done? You know, what have you done to try to equip them and to move them in that direction?
20:00: And he had said, he said, well, we've done this program, we've done that program, we've done the other program.
20:07: I mean, let's take four or five great programs that Churches offer, many of which you would recognize and your listeners would recognize, but there was no change.
20:19: And I had said to him, I said, brother, I said, consider that the problem here is not that the people don't know what to do, but the problem is that they don't know, they don't have the heart to want to do it.
20:36: And so what, you know, I would want to encourage you to step back from, you know, giving them the list of do's and don'ts, as it were, just to be short about it, but to step back and actually take a deeper focus on the
20:54: Gospel, because it's when they see the beauty and full sufficiency of what Christ has done for them that their heart is going to change to want to do ministry.
21:08: And I think this is what's missed so often in our attempts to try to help people grow in the home and in the
21:15: Church, is we just tell them what to do, we think, well, we're telling them what to do, that'll, you know, they'll do it.
21:22: But the reality is, no, no, it's not just telling people what they have to do, but it, more importantly, the bigger picture of helping people's lives change is helping them understand all that Christ has done for them, and being able to live out of that by faith much more effectively.
21:44: So I'm, I think, going way, way far real fast here in answering that question.
21:53: But that is really the heart and soul of this ministry, is not so much really talking to churches about how to, how they can change programs,
22:04: I would say it's much, much more just talking to churches about, let's just rediscover who we are in Christ together and begin to apply that by faith in our relationships.
22:18: Let's make a commitment, you know, to elders, you know, being shepherds, and to fathers being shepherds in their homes, in particular, single mom, you know, there too, helping them to be able to enter into relationships where, you know, they really get to know the people that they're in that relationship with, where they know what they're struggling with, and can apply the
22:43: Gospel to deal with the issues that they're facing, so that they're not in the constant cycle of failure, really, but that they're actually stepping out of that and moving forward in greater obedience to Jesus Christ.
23:02: So we have resources and seminars that we do at the
23:08: Institute for United Church and Home, where we will talk to men, we have a men's seminar, a couple's seminar, we have a church -wide seminar, where we'll just get the whole church together and say, let's just read, look at relationships and get practical equipping for relationships, but also just help you understand what, who we are in Christ.
23:30: Well, Reverend Buzz Taylor has a comment. Do you equate this with in Acts 2, for example, where it says they were continually, you know, remember chapter 4, 2,
23:41: I can't remember exactly the reference, I don't have it in front of me, but when it refers to koinonia, they were constantly giving themselves to the apostles, teaching to prayer and breaking bread and fellowship.
23:50: Is this, is this what the koinonia that's mentioned in Acts, is this what you're talking about, that kind of relationship where everybody is involved in one another's lives?
24:00: Yes. By the way, I want to read, I want to read a couple of commendations for this book that we are addressing, a book of the same title as your ministry,
24:14: Uniting Church and Home, a Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community is the subtitle, and a couple of commendations that this book has received
24:24: I would like to read are from First George Grant, who has been a guest on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, and this is actually a great reminder for me to invite him back.
24:34: It's been quite a while since we've had Dr. George Grant on the program, but he says, this is an important book.
24:42: It offers a cooperative, integrated, and covenantal approach to life and ministry rarely seen in these fragmented individualistic and parochial times.
24:53: Its biblical foundations, reformed outlook, and practical emphasis make it refreshingly substantive while at the same time startlingly relevant.
25:06: The responsibilities of the home ought to be facilitated by the church, not co -opted. Likewise, the centrality of the church ought to be embraced by the home, not resisted.
25:17: This remarkable blueprint for symbiosis shows us how to strike that kind of essential balance, and also, someone that I have not yet interviewed, but I would love to have eventually on the program,
25:31: Susan Hunt, who many of you may recognize from her books that she has written, and she's also
25:38: Director of Women in the Church, PCA Christian Education and Publications Committee in Atlanta, Georgia.
25:46: She says, in a day of raging confusion about ministry models, Eric Wallace speaks with clarity about the necessity of uniting church and home.
25:56: This approach expresses the covenant concept of home and church working together to tradition the faith to the next generation.
26:05: This timely book is indeed a blueprint for covenant community. Some very impressive commendations from some very impressive people, and rather than interrupt you mid -sentence,
26:18: I'm going to go to a break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Eric Wallace, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
26:33: Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, your country of residence, if you live outside of the
26:41: USA, and if this is about a personal and private matter, since we are involving family life in our discussion, there may be situations where you prefer remaining anonymous because of the intimate and private and personal nature of the question, well you may feel free to remain anonymous, but if it is not anything like that, we would urge you to please at least give us your first name, city and state and country of residence, if you live outside the
27:11: USA. Don't go away, we'll be right back, God willing, after these messages with Eric Wallace.
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32:46: Iron Sharpens today. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is
32:55: Eric Wallace, president of the Institute for Uniting Church and Home. We are discussing his book,
33:02: Uniting Church and Home, a Blueprint for Building Church Community. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
33:12: chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
33:19: And we do have a listener already all the way in Slovenia who has a comment slash question for you,
33:27: Eric. Dear Brother Chris, thank you so much for this incredible topic, having grown up in and served in churches that were completely programmatic.
33:36: This topic and title of the book is almost unfathomable for me. I was theologically trained that church is done programmatically.
33:46: The assumption is that you need ministry programs that focus on every conceivable demographic in the community.
33:53: Recently, every conceivable hobby or social pastime has become the basis for some ministry outreach for the church.
34:03: How do we rid ourselves of this ministry treadmill and get back to organic relational one -anothering as described in the scriptures?
34:14: Thanks for helping me develop a new and more scriptural paradigm along these lines.
34:21: Wow. Well, you said we only have 90 more minutes?
34:30: You know, we didn't get into the problem that we're in overnight, and there is not a magic formula here.
34:38: And I think that that's an important thing for your listeners who would look at their church situation and think, wow, you know, this
34:46: Wallace guy is kind of putting his fingers on some things that I've been concerned about but I've never given voice to.
34:52: And these are things that are going to take time to, you know, to kind of reverse the clock, as it were.
35:01: But I would tell you that the method for reversing that clock is very simply getting back to the rudimentary truths of the gospel message and proclaiming those.
35:16: And, you know, very often when I'm speaking to groups,
35:22: I'll begin with Romans 1, 15 and 16, and I'll say, you know,
35:28: I'll read Romans 1, you know, Paul says, I'm not, you know, I am eager to come and preach the gospel to you who are in Rome.
35:33: And I'll ask, I'll say, who are the people that Paul is writing to here in Rome?
35:39: And, you know, inevitably, you know, the hand finally comes up and says, well, I believe it's Christians. And, you know, and I'll respond, you know, what do you mean?
35:48: Why is Paul preaching the gospel to Christians? Isn't the gospel what we put in a little piece of paper that we, you know, leave in seatback pockets on airplanes or in bus terminals?
36:02: Or on restaurant tables with very bad tips? Right, yes, yes.
36:08: And of course it is. Of course that is. I mean, that's an important part of the gospel, absolutely, that people know that Jesus died, you know, to pay the penalty for their sins.
36:18: But that's where, in most people's thinking, Chris and Buzz, this is tragic. But in most people's thinking, that's where the gospel stops.
36:27: Oh, the gospel got me in, now it's a function of simply reading the Bible to find out what
36:33: I'm supposed to be doing to live my life the way that God expects me to live my life.
36:41: And so the gospel is just out the window. But then you look at verse 16, and you know, you find out why
36:51: Paul is so eager to preach the gospel. He says in 16, I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation.
36:59: And of course, you know, the power there, the word for power in the Greek is dunamis, like dynamite.
37:05: It's like this enormous power for our salvation. Our salvation is not just our justification, but it is also our sanctification.
37:17: And people, I'm telling you, their eyes open and their mouths drop when
37:23: I say that. And so, because they are not hearing that, you know, what they're hearing as a normal diet in the
37:33: Church, you know, is the gospel of justification, which is, you know, part of the gospel.
37:39: But there's also the gospel, that same gospel helps us in our sanctification.
37:45: It proclaims that not just by faith do we become a believer, but by faith we grow as a believer.
37:53: Not just by faith in Christ's work, in his life, death, and resurrection, you know, that not just that that saves us from the penalty of our sin and justifies us, but that also is the means by which we are sanctified.
38:09: Faith in all that he's accomplished fully and sufficiently for us and gives us as a part of our sanctification.
38:17: And there's a doctrine that is very seldom taught, and it is the doctrine of definitive sanctification.
38:28: There's the doctrine of justification, and then, you know, normally we have that, and then we draw this big heavy line that separates the doctrine of justification from the doctrine of progressive sanctification.
38:40: And we forget that there is a connection between justification and sanctification, and that is, you know, definitive sanctification.
38:49: And this is where the real freedom and joy that we should have in our
38:55: Christian life is located. It's here. It's in what we have already been fully and sufficiently given in Christ.
39:02: Now, when you say definitive sanctification, are you saying that this is in opposition to cheap grace and easy believism, the repentant -less idea of salvation that is very popular and has been for a number of decades, tragically?
39:21: Well, I think a true understanding of what Christ has fully and sufficiently done for us has the effect in our lives of propelling us, compelling us to obey.
39:38: You know, Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5 .14 that he's compelled by the love of Christ for him.
39:44: In his ministry as a reconciler, as an ambassador for Christ, you know, his motivation is the love of Christ for him.
39:53: And so I think a proper understanding of all that Jesus has done for us, truly, when we understand that, motivates us, it pushes us, it compels us to want to obey what
40:07: God says that we are to do. And of course a huge part of that is, you know, confession and repentance.
40:13: I mean, we are to live lives, each day, Lord willing, we're seeing sin and we're confessing that to God and we're, you know, repenting of it.
40:21: But we're doing that out of a heart of joy because we see, you know, all that Christ has done for us, rather than a heart of fear because, oh no, you know,
40:31: I've sinned again, and God's not going to be happy with me,
40:36: God's not going to bless me today. And this is the way, you know, many Christians live. They live in that performance orientation because they don't, they haven't heard, you know, this fully sufficient gospel proclaimed.
40:50: Yes, and that's why if you believe in the doctrines of grace, I know that the doctrines of grace, the doctrines of sovereign grace, the doctrines of Reformed Theology, Calvinism, however you want to label them,
41:05: I know that the Reformed faith and biblical Christianity reaches out much farther than just the acronym
41:14: TULIP, I understand that. But I think it's very important that when you hold to the doctrines of grace, that you hold to all of those five points because of the fact that if you leave, for instance, the perseverance and preservation of the saints out of that, you can have disastrous results.
41:34: I was just at the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology and heard a powerful message by Dr.
41:41: Rick Phillips over at Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina, and he was telling a, or briefly just mentioning an account, a very tragic account of a professedly
41:54: Reformed pastor, quite well -known pastor, who had fallen into adulterous sin and was forced to leave the church.
42:07: And he had a warped, distorted understanding of Reformed Theology that was in fact heretical.
42:19: It was part of the hyper -grace movement in which he was basically attempting to seduce a woman in the church with the promise that, hey,
42:32: Jesus Christ's sacrifice on Calvary paid for all sin. We are to live free in our grace that we have been given.
42:40: That kind of nonsense, that kind of wickedness where he was taking the truth of God out of context and turning it into licentiousness.
42:50: Right. No, absolutely, and I would agree 110 percent with what you're saying.
42:57: And I think that as the Church has looked to the business world and psychologists more for how to design ministry, the more we've drifted from a proclamation of the truth.
43:13: And, you know, people fall into these traps where they do believe, you know, that, you know, in a sense, you know, it's all about me, it's not about God's glory, it's not about, you know,
43:24: Jesus Christ being seen more clearly in and through me, it's about me getting what I want. So, you know, to come back, circle back to the question, you know, from our brother or our sister in Slovenia, you know, the key is to get back to preaching the gospel for the
43:41: Christian. And this is what, this is, when you look at 1
43:47: Corinthians chapter 1 and chapter 2, you know,
43:53: Paul, he's going to address a lot of sin in the Corinthian Church, but where does he begin?
43:59: He doesn't begin with saying, thou shalt not and, you know, do's and don'ts, he begins, you know, with the gospel.
44:07: And in chapter 2 verses 1 to 5, he talks about how that he comes to them, you know, not with all the rhetorical zeal or the...
44:18: he doesn't come to them like the people that would be teaching false teaching, he comes to them plainly with this gospel, so that their faith, the faith of the people, will rest in Christ rather than him.
44:33: And so I think that that's an aspect of what we have to try to get back to in terms of this proclamation, that this gospel message really is, it's simple.
44:44: It's simple to understand. Granted, it's hard to apply at times because of our hearts, but the gospel is sufficient.
44:52: That the gospel is fully sufficient, that we are, you know, a priesthood of believers, that we can sufficiently apply the gospel in our homes and in our churches.
45:04: And we need to teach this. Now, our listener in Slovenia says something in his comment -slash -question that I don't want to be taken out of context.
45:19: I'm not sure whether he would agree with what I'm about to say or not. I'm not sure if you would. But although I believe it is very tragic and disturbing when churches who are buying into the seeker -sensitive movement, when they adopt all these kinds of ministries related to, as our listener says, every conceivable hobby or social pastime, that replace in their life, their church life, the worship and teaching, the worship of God in an honorable,
45:54: God -centered, Christ -glorifying way, and the teaching of the whole counsel of God, when those things replace those very vital elements of worship, that is disturbing.
46:07: But on the other hand, I don't find anything wrong with members of the body of Christ using the gifts that God has given them to create some kind of a ministry outreach.
46:18: Like, for instance, if a man is a carpenter and he wants to teach carpentry lessons and the lost come to his classes and then they'll hear the gospel as well,
46:28: I think that's great. I agree. Things like even the performing arts, where I disdain things that are being added into the worship of God that are not commanded in Scripture, things like dancing and all kinds of things that people want to incorporate into the worship service to make them more entertaining.
46:54: On the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with a church who has gifted people teaching all kinds of, you know, musical and dramatic arts and things like that, or having some kind of a ministry outreach connected to the church that involves those things, as long as they're not replacing the preaching and teaching and appropriate worship, the biblical worship of God.
47:19: Right. No, I completely agree with you on that, but I would say that what the problem is is that when we're not proclaiming, you know, the sanctification part of the gospel, then what we're doing is we're leaving a vacuum for people to try to find, even in their service, even in their well -intentioned service, trying to find in that service something that they have already received through Christ.
47:49: For instance, someone that thinks that, you know, well, you know, I'm kind of, I'm not very active, and they begin to feel down on themselves about the fact that they're not active.
47:58: And they begin to think, you know, well, you know, God's just not happy with me, because I'm not, you know, doing things that other people are doing.
48:05: But, you know, to remember to come back and think, you know, if you're in Christ, if you're united in Christ, which if you're a true believer, you are united in Him, Colossians says you are hidden in Christ, then, you know, what part of what you've received from Him is
48:21: His righteousness. That, you know, 2 Corinthians 5 says, you know, that He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God.
48:31: So looking at the righteousness as what they already have, it's fully and sufficiently in Christ.
48:39: So they don't do what they're, they don't do the service out of a guilt that, oh,
48:44: I better do it because, you know, people are going to look at me and they're going to think that, you know, there's something really wrong with me, or doing it as a way of trying to gain something from God, you know, to gain effectively righteousness, to gain
48:59: His, to merit His approval in their life. And so that's, I think, the problem, you know, with the
49:06: Church today, is that there are a lot of people that are thinking that their position in Christ is not already settled, but that their position is something that they're, you know, seeking to improve, you know, through their performance, which normally happens in their own strength, which is impossible.
49:26: By the way, Joe in Slovenia, thank you for giving us an
49:31: American address where your daughter lives, because we are going to be mailing to you and her address, at her address, a free copy of Uniting Church in a
49:45: Home, a Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community, compliments of our guest,
49:51: Eric Wallace, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who are actually going to be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Radio.
50:01: So we want to thank Eric Wallace and CVBBS .com,
50:07: that's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com, and look for a package in the mail with an envelope or a label,
50:16: I should say, that says CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.
50:24: We want to thank Todd and Patty Jennings of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for their loyal support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and for shipping out our listeners all the
50:36: Bibles and books and DVDs and CDs and other things that they win by submitting questions to our guests.
50:44: We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks,
50:50: I know that the host of this program, Chris Arnzen, is a Reformed Baptist. I was wondering if this book is equally applicable to Reformed Baptists or Baptists in general, since you were emphasizing covenant theology earlier.
51:05: And obviously, Reformed Baptists, many Reformed Baptists claim, adhere to covenant theology and obviously have somewhat of a different interpretation of it than a
51:17: Presbyterian would. But if you could reply to our listener's question. Sure, the book would definitely speak to you and your situation.
51:29: And in fact, when I wrote the book, again, that was, you know, 20 years ago. I've written other books and booklets since then, but you know,
51:38: Susan Hunt, one of the people that graciously endorsed my book when it came out, you know, had said, you know, that she was delighted by the fact that the book did have that kind of reach, that the book is not written from a particular perspective in terms of the language and the terminology, you know, it's plain language.
52:03: And so I think that there will be an easy, it'll be easy for you all to dive into that and to get some life out of it.
52:13: Yeah, I believe Susan Hunt is a Reformed Baptist, isn't she? Well, actually,
52:19: I'm thinking of Martha Peace, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think Susan Hunt's PCA.
52:26: Okay. So, yeah. And we are going to a break right now.
52:32: If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
52:38: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name and city and state and country of residence if you live in the
52:45: United States. And please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.
52:51: Oh, and by the way, RJ in White Plains, New York, you've also won a copy, a free copy of Uniting Church and Home by Eric Wallace.
52:59: So keep your eye open in the mail for a package from cvbbs .com, that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.
53:07: Don't go away, we will be right back, God willing, after these messages with more of Eric Wallace and Uniting Church and Home.
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01:03:11: Well, I hope many of you join me at Harvey Cedars, May 15th through the 17th, for the
01:03:17: Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat, and that is being sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.
01:03:24: I'll be accompanied by my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, and that's actually, as I said earlier, the first place where I met our guest today,
01:03:32: Eric Wallace. This year, the Faithful Shepherd Conference, or Shepherd's Retreat, I should say, features
01:03:41: Carl Truman, Todd Pruitt, John Nielsen, and Amy Bird, and we would love to have you join us if you are able, and registration can be accomplished by going to alliancenet .org,
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01:05:23: Wednesday, the 10th of May, again, on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and also some folks that I would love to have as guests on Iron Sharpens Iron, like William Vanderwerde, and Carlton Wynn, and Ian Hamilton.
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01:05:59: Banneroftruth .org, click on Events, and then click on 2017 U .S.
01:06:05: Ministers Conference. Last but not least, I want to remind you about the
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01:09:11: And we are back now with our interview with Eric Wallace, president of the
01:09:17: Institute for Uniting Church and Home. We're discussing his book Uniting Church and Home, A Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community.
01:09:25: And once again our email address if you have a question for Eric Wallace is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
01:09:32: chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We have Bebe in Cumberland County who has a question for you Eric. Bebe, she is asking, do you agree that many churches are exaggerating the focus on family in the life and worship of the church to the point of idolatry?
01:09:56: I would definitely agree that there are churches that have raised the family to an idolatrous level, absolutely.
01:10:05: Okay, so you don't want anybody in the listening audience to have any kind of wrong idea that you are a part of that group because of the fact that you are focusing on Uniting Church and Home in the title.
01:10:17: Correct. And we thank you, Bebe, for your question.
01:10:23: And you have also won a free copy of Uniting Church and Home, A Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community.
01:10:32: Make sure you give us your full mailing address and that will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,
01:10:41: cvbbs .com. And you have some major topics in this book that you, different segments of the book that it is broken up into.
01:10:54: You have the state of the church today, you have we need each other, you have a renewed vision for the church and its ministry, and you have stages in rebuilding.
01:11:08: If you could start with some more, you've already said some things about your displeasure with a lot of what is going on in the church today, but if you could be a little bit more specific with some other areas in regard to the state of the church today.
01:11:22: Perhaps you could start with your theme of a house of living stones and explain that.
01:11:30: Right. Well, we are, we know in Peter, you know, that Peter talks about how that we are, you know, a priesthood of believers, you know, that we are the living stones.
01:11:42: And, you know, what that means is that, you know, God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, you know, uses us when we are, you know, working out of His Word in the lives of other people, that the, you know, that God's Spirit and His Word are the means through which we minister to one another fully and sufficiently.
01:12:06: So, you know, one of the things that I think has happened tragically in the church is that, you know, let's take for instance, you know, fathers.
01:12:14: You know, they don't feel like priests in their home. They don't feel sufficient to teach and train, you know, their children in the home, you know, worth very much.
01:12:24: And in part, you know, that's because, as I've been sharing quite passionately here over the last hour, you know, because we're not equipping them to understand fundamentally who they are in Christ, and to understand how that is what their job is, you know, that their job as a father is not to be
01:12:47: John Piper in their home. And I think, you know, that a lot, because of the way that the church has developed in its traditional vein, you know, a lot of men feel that, well,
01:12:59: I can't be John Piper, I can't be, you know, even the pastor of their own church, or even the youth leader of their own church.
01:13:04: So they feel like, why try? But the reality is that, you know, their responsibility is not to be orators.
01:13:12: You know, as I was referencing Paul in 1st Corinthians, you know, that he came with the simple gospel.
01:13:18: And that's what we need to equip, you know, fathers and mothers, to be able to sufficiently proclaim and apply in the lives of their children.
01:13:28: And that's the work of a priest, you know, to apply the word, you know, in the lives of those that follow
01:13:34: God. And so, you know, the church needs to equip the parents to do that.
01:13:42: And I think that classes and programs can be helpful, but even in that equipping, you know, there has to be that relational aspect where, you know, ideally there's an elder who is intimately aware and involved in the life of that family, you know, more easily through a shepherding relationship with the father, where, you know, he's meeting with him and really understanding what's going on in the life of that father, and where that father is known by him and he understands what's really going on, and where, you know, that father is able to see, not just in the life of the elder, but in, you know, the way that he runs his life, the way that he teaches, that he is, you know, seeing him apply the gospel, that he's being open about areas where he's weak, and where he needs help, and, you know, that relational dynamic is something that the church needs to get back to.
01:14:49: And in the book, I talk a lot about fathers and equipping fathers, and I talk a lot about, well, not so much, but more about fathers, but some about elders, you know, shepherding of those men, being in relationship with them to provide, you know, accountability, you know, loving and gentle accountability, and seeing that these men are wisely, you know, performing that function of, you know, the priest or pastor in their own home.
01:15:17: Now, how is this being, in your mind, how is this to be done in the church outside of the preaching from the pulpit?
01:15:28: I mean, is there, do you believe, to be private counseling and private instruction that elders are to be giving to fathers in the church, or how are you envisioning this to occur?
01:15:43: Well, you know, churches go a little bit different ways. I think that a men's ministry is a start, but, you know, it's a men's ministry that is more than about the men, but about the men and their covenantal context, you know, equipping them to be the leaders in their home.
01:16:03: So I think men's ministry is a part of that, you know, that takes on men and really gets in deep and encourages and equips them to lead in the home.
01:16:13: But I think that something I alluded to in answering the previous question was just the personal relationship, that, you know, that elders, you know,
01:16:23: Hebrews 13, 17 says, you know, that we're, you know, elders are accountable to God for the sheep under their care, and it's very difficult to be accountable for people that you don't know.
01:16:36: So there has to be a way, given the challenges, and I'm an elder, too, in my church, and it is hard.
01:16:45: The time element is a challenge, so there's no easy way around that, but, you know, you begin with a commitment to it, and it's amazing how when you establish a commitment to something, you find ways to see it through.
01:17:03: And today, we do have many modes of technology that can help us connect with people when physically that's impossible.
01:17:15: So I think those are the two main things, and I think a third thing is that as leaders, you know, that we begin to see, you know, the head of household, whether that's a father, whether that's a single mother, that we begin to see them as, you know, kind of the middle managers of the church, that they're the ones that we direct most of our equipping to, so that they can be, you know, adequately teaching and applying this in the lives of those that are, you know, under their roof.
01:17:47: Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, wants to know if you are in any way affiliated with the
01:17:55: Family Integrated Church movement. He says, I know some wonderful people, and I've heard some wonderful things connected with it, but I've also heard the polar opposite of that, and I've heard that some of the individuals and groups involved in the
01:18:11: Family Integrated ministries have become sadly and quite tragically cultic.
01:18:17: Yes. I am not a member of that movement, no.
01:18:24: And I would agree that there are, you know, there are churches in that movement that, you know, are way out of balance.
01:18:34: I would say also that there are churches in that movement that are not. Right, I have to know
01:18:40: Jeff Pollard personally of Chapel Library, and he's an outstanding brother in Christ, and he has even admitted to me in conversation that there are some extremists in the movement that he's uncomfortable with, but he loves the purpose reason, the purpose of its founding and its genesis, and the main themes that run through it, he seems to be in favor of.
01:19:06: Could you give us some kind of a summary of that movement? Well, as I understand it, the way that that movement is designed, it is designed,
01:19:18: I think, with a good intention in that, you know, they want to see the biblical roles in the home raised back up to prominence in terms of, you know, the way that kids are brought up in Christ, that they come to know and walk with Christ.
01:19:37: And so there's been, that movement has gone through quite a bit of changes, as I understand it, over the years, covering quite the gamut.
01:19:48: So I would agree, I think, with your summation that there are churches that have taken a very legalistic,
01:19:56: I would say militant, direction with those principles, and there are those that have not.
01:20:04: But I would say that all that that does is emphasize all the more, you know, why we need to be reminding people that the way that you grow in Christ is by grace through faith in Christ.
01:20:19: And I'm going to give you, just scripturally, give you an example, you know, in Ephesians, which of course is the most concise treatment of the doctrine of the
01:20:31: Church, and you have in chapter 5, you know, husbands love your wives, you have in chapter 6, you know, men, you know, raise your children in the instruction of the
01:20:40: Lord. And the danger, not just in, well, in any church, is that you take those two passages and you go to a man and you say, love your wife and train your children, but you do it outside the context of Ephesians 1 through 3, which says, you know, where Paul is just talking about how great the rich inheritance is that we have in Christ, that is to be the strength and the motivation out of which a husband loves his wife, and out of which a man trains his children.
01:21:21: And that makes all the difference in the world, you know, to a father, to see that his role there is really one that is grounded in the full accomplishment of what
01:21:34: Christ has already done and given to him as part of his inheritance. So, you know, his righteousness, for instance, is not in his performance, you know, as a husband and father, but it's in Christ.
01:21:47: What does that do? That frees him to be able to confess to his wife and children,
01:21:52: I have failed, I have sinned, I've got angry with you, or I failed in leading you in this way.
01:21:58: You know, he can freely admit those things, and which is in itself,
01:22:05: I think, a huge example of what it means, really, to walk by faith in Christ to his kids.
01:22:14: That's much more of a teaching opportunity than simply modeling doing it the right way every time.
01:22:22: And I think that, you know, one of the pitfalls that I've seen in movements where people are saying the programs are the problem, we need to get rid of the programs, is that they, without maybe understanding it this way, you know, they're conveying sort of an outside -in theology of transformation rather than an inside -out spirit -led theology of transformation.
01:22:51: And one mom called me from South Carolina, and I talked with her for two hours, and she was wrestling with whether or not to send her son, to allow her teenage son to go to a
01:23:02: Christian camp. And at the core of that conversation, at the core of this decision that she was trying to make,
01:23:12: I really began to see that, you know, she had an idol of control, that she felt that she could keep her son from making bad decisions simply by keeping him away from other youth.
01:23:25: And that isn't going, you know, there's a wisdom decision there, so I certainly want to acknowledge that, but I would say that it's not white and black.
01:23:36: And the more I think that you understand that the heart of that teenager is going to be affected more by understanding who
01:23:43: Christ is and what He's done for him, that will help him grow and choose not to do wrong when presented with wrong, more than just simply keeping him away from what you perceive to be opportunities for him to make those decisions.
01:23:58: Because the issue is the heart. If the heart is not oriented toward Christ in a loving and dependent way, you know, then the heart's going to, you know, it's going to come out.
01:24:09: The foolishness, the sin, you know, the old man, the flesh is going to come out and find another way of getting what it wants.
01:24:18: So I would say, you know, in summary, that any time that we emphasize, you know, what we're doing over, you know, what we're believing, that we're in danger.
01:24:33: In any church situation, in any church tradition, that we're in danger of falling away from the true faith and freedom that we have in Christ.
01:24:45: And as I mentioned earlier in the show, that was, you know, I struggled with my assurance of salvation because, you know,
01:24:53: I really thought that, you know, this is something that I had to do on my own, that it was my strength and just, you know, ginning up the, you know, the willpower to say no or to say yes or whatever the case was.
01:25:04: I think that that's the nature of the human heart. So perhaps that's a little bit more of an answer than your caller was looking for, but I think that the problems that you would, that you pointed out perhaps in that one movement could be true of other movements as well if they're not based fully and sufficiently in the gospel.
01:25:28: Well Ronald, in eastern Suffolk County, you have also won a free copy of Uniting Church and Home, a blueprint for rebuilding church community.
01:25:37: We're going to our final break right now, so if you intend to write in a question, now is the time to do it before we run out of time.
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01:30:40: Chris Arnzen, and this is the last half hour of the program with Eric Wallace, President of the
01:30:48: Institute for Uniting Church and Home. We are discussing his book, Uniting Church and Home, a
01:30:53: Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,
01:31:02: chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, unless it's about a personal and private matter that you are asking about.
01:31:15: And we have Christian in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, do not the single men and women in the church need to be instructed about these things too, so that they are already prepared when they enter into the bonds of marriage?
01:31:35: I would agree completely, and I think that, you know, ideally, again, thinking multi -generationally, thinking long -term, you know, that we see that if we're faithful at equipping this way, that, you know, in the end, we're going to have that kind of faithfulness.
01:31:56: You're not going to have people who were not raised in a Christian home, or were not raised in a, you know, in a situation where they were taught through another family, you know, these fundamental principles.
01:32:10: But I believe that when you look at the church ministry today, you know, one of the things that we've been putting our finger on is that, you know, like singles, for instance, you know, which is the focus of your question, that singles, you know, don't want to be left, you know, kind of in their corner.
01:32:30: That singles want to be a part of relationships. And so they just need to be reached out to by other people who truly want, you know, to care for them.
01:32:41: And there was a church that I was working with that, you know, I came in and did a seminar, and it was a very unusual situation.
01:32:50: They had a single mom who actually had two children out of wedlock, and the elders basically said, we're not going to have a singles ministry.
01:33:03: You know, we want to see, you know, the people at church gather around this young lady and support her, not just personally, but, you know, to equip her as the head of her own household to teach these kids.
01:33:15: And they did that, and she later was married, and other people in the community found out about it, and they ended up having two more single moms come to this church and, you know, receive that kind of care.
01:33:32: So I think that, you know, as we focus more as church leaders on the necessity, not just the importance, you know, relationships are not nice to have.
01:33:42: They are, you know, mission critical. And the more that we teach that, not only by what we say, but what we do in terms of our own actions as leaders,
01:33:52: I think the more that other people are going to jump in and see not only that it works, but it's something that they really want to do themselves because they see, you know, that people's lives are being changed.
01:34:05: So it's not, you know, a cut and dry turnkey kind of situation.
01:34:11: I think that it takes, you know, teaching. It takes intentionality on the part of the leaders, you know, to bring this focus back into view.
01:34:22: Well, since this is, this book is subtitled A Blueprint for Rebuilding Church Community, let's go through some of the nuts and bolts of this one by one on your section on stages of rebuilding.
01:34:38: Let's start with rebuilding on Christ and his gospel. Give us some details on how this is done. Sure. Well, as I have been saying in the interview, it is, it gets back to the leaders really seeing that what people need for a transformed life they already have in Christ.
01:34:57: But it requires relationships to help each other and hold each other accountable to teach and live out, you know, that truth in our lives.
01:35:08: And so that's a huge step right there, is reminding people about this truth.
01:35:14: I would draw people's attention, you know, to the scriptures. Peter talks about reminder, you know,
01:35:21: I'm reminding you of these things, and that reminder, you know, Hebrews says daily, you know, that we,
01:35:30: Hebrews 3 or 4 talks about how, you know, that we need encouragement daily, you know, lest our hearts are hardened.
01:35:40: So it's putting an emphasis on that, and in some cases it may mean, you know, paring down programs for a little while or putting them on ice, or, you know, you may find that in doing that, that people really get the message that this is important, and that they step forward.
01:36:01: So every church is different in this regard as to these kinds of decisions, but I think that it does begin, you know, with that clear proclamation, you know, at our church it's an every week thing, because we do tend to forget, you know, we get busy, and we forget about, you know, what
01:36:18: Christ has done for us, and we forget to, you know, to live it. And I've seen, you know, over and over, you know, through my ministry, you know, that people are not typically hearing this, and, you know,
01:36:31: I did a men's retreat down in Florida, and afterwards the pastor came up to me.
01:36:38: This was actually a Southern Baptist church, and the pastor came up and said, you know, these are truths that I have forgotten about personally, and I've not been teaching.
01:36:48: Not been teaching my people. Another pastor at another conference. Pardon me, this wasn't a pastor, this was a
01:36:54: Christian leader, but, you know, I was talking about Romans 6. You know, right there, you talk about definitive sanctification, it's right there, you know, that we are by faith to reckon ourselves dead to the power of sin in our lives, and that we are alive to Christ.
01:37:13: And I was teaching that, very simply, and the guy comes up to me after the conference and says, you know,
01:37:18: I've been a Christian all these years, and I've never, you know, thought that my battle with sin every day begins from a position of standing in the victory of what
01:37:28: Christ has already fully accomplished. So I think that there's a lot of church leaders that think, well, the
01:37:36: Gospel, everyone knows this stuff, and in reality, at least in how people live, they really don't.
01:37:43: So it's a function of teaching it every Sunday when we come to a passage, you know, keeping the who we are in Christ together with what we are to do, the indicative imperative relationship is important, and we forget that.
01:38:01: And people need to be reminded of it, and it's powerful, because it is the
01:38:06: Gospel, it is the Holy Spirit that's supplying that in our lives, therefore we can rest, even though, you know, we don't feel completely in control of what's going on, you know,
01:38:17: God's in control. So I would say it's just taking the opportunities
01:38:23: Sunday morning, you know, at the different ministries, in family devotions, teaching men, you know, when you're reading the
01:38:30: Bible with your family, you know, don't just, you know, don't read scriptures as moralists.
01:38:37: You know, oh, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna, you know, follow David in defeating Goliath, you know.
01:38:42: People love to read that, and they forget the fact that the message of that is really, this is what Christ has done.
01:38:48: Christ was the one who came and fully defeated Satan for us. So as men, you know, it encourages me greatly to see the power of God coming out in the lives of my children, not because I'm a great teacher, because it's not about me, it's not about whether I can teach well or not teach well.
01:39:09: What matters is that I'm showing them who they are in Christ in the passages, where it's also talking about what they are to do.
01:39:18: Now, I know that you've... Keeping those two things together is vital. I know that you've probably already addressed some of these things throughout the program, but perhaps you can give more detail on the next section of rebuilding, rebuilding the household of God.
01:39:36: Well, I think that that gets back again, you know, to relationships and the importance of seeing that, you know, when
01:39:45: Jesus came, the model that he gave us was one of a shepherd. It was intensely relational.
01:39:52: And that's because there's modeling, that's because there's accountability in that. And so when we're talking about rebuilding, you know, the household of God, first of all, it's actually seeing that we are
01:40:04: God's family, that, you know, Ephesians 2, let's go back there, you know, he talks about how that we are, you know, part of our inheritance, part of the riches that we've been given, is that we've been adopted into his family, and that, you know, the implication there is that we are to live like a family, that we are, you know, to love one another.
01:40:27: But that doesn't happen just spontaneously. It goes back to the leaders, you know, holding that vision out to people and equipping them specifically.
01:40:37: Well, how do you have relationships with one another? How do you build trust? How do you ask questions? How, you know, does who we are in Christ apply to specific idols in our lives?
01:40:48: So there's that equipping element, and I would say also, it's shepherds, it's men stepping forward that are going to move forward in terms of working individually with people as shepherds.
01:41:05: And, you know, that I have seen, you know, in churches that begin to focus on that, there is fruit that comes from it.
01:41:15: There is deep fruit. So it's not the kind of thing that you, it's turnkey, but it's not the kind of thing that, it takes patience, it takes intentionality rather than,
01:41:33: I guess what I'm trying to say, it's more art than science. Now, what do you mean by implementing a household approach?
01:41:42: Well, what I mean there very simply is just that, you know, we need to get back to relationships and seeing that God does work through them, and that there are, there is an order of relationships that God particularly works through, you know, husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, you know, focusing on that.
01:42:02: God, you know, works through elders as shepherds and deacons alongside those elders.
01:42:09: So it's people committing, you know, to each other rather than just going to church and thinking, you know,
01:42:16: I'm here simply to get what I can get rather than to give what I have.
01:42:24: And, you know, the key to that is intentionality rather than, you know, this is, you know, where we're going to be
01:42:31: Sunday at seven o 'clock, and this is what we're going to do for an hour. And what do you mean by from separation to integration?
01:42:40: Well, I think that when you look at traditional church, you know, the way things are done now is that, you know, people are separated in different groups and different classes.
01:42:49: Again, that's not inherently wrong, but if that's all that we're really doing, then there's not the connection.
01:42:57: There's not the relational connections being fostered. You mean like you have children's church, you have youth groups, you have the 50 and over singles club and that kind of thing?
01:43:11: Is that what you're referring to? Well, again, those are not wrong things, but what I'm saying is that when those become an end in themselves and not a means, you know, that might be one way of looking at it.
01:43:22: When they're not a means toward building relationships where, you know, people are able to apply what they're learning throughout the week, you know, then they are kind of an end in and of themselves, and what happens is they become a cul -de -sac rather than like a conduit.
01:43:38: And people stay there, and you don't see, you know, older people in the faith, you know, reaching out and seeking to establish relationships with those that are younger that need, you know, the practical life wisdom, you know, in order to grow healthy.
01:43:53: Yeah, I can tell you that as a young Christian in my 20s, as a new
01:43:59: Christian, I mean, there are Christians that are a lot younger than in their 20s, but I happen to be a newborn babe in Christ in my mid -20s, and some of my most cherished memories are the fellowship
01:44:13: I had with senior citizen Christians who were very intimately involved in my life and very close to me for decades.
01:44:24: I'm speaking specifically right now of a couple from England, Nigel and Barbara Stone, who were members of my congregation where I was a member.
01:44:33: Nigel went home to be with the Lord a few years ago, and Barbara is still with us living in Tennessee, but I do sometimes cringe when
01:44:43: I hear about churches that intentionally every fellowship gathering that they have is separated and segregated by their age group and all that kind of thing.
01:44:55: Right. Yes, and you know, the real challenges that we have in our lives normally are met when there are people in our lives with us.
01:45:06: You know, our pastor was on staff at the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation up in Philadelphia for 10 years before he came down and was installed as pastor of our church, but he would say over and over again, he'd say, you know,
01:45:24: I'd have people coming into my office with all these issues, and his question was always, well, does anyone in the church know about your situation, and does anyone know that you're struggling with this?
01:45:35: And he would say inevitably 99 % of the time they would say no. And that is, you know, that has to be corrected, and that begins with us as leaders, you know, connecting with people for ourselves, too.
01:45:51: I mean, that we know that we need help, that we need the encouragement and prayers of others as much as they need it.
01:45:59: So we have to have a change of heart, and I think that, you know, Timothy Whitmer in his book,
01:46:06: The Shepherd Leader at Church, and I think The Shepherd Leader at Home, he's got excellent on that. Yeah, I had a pastor's luncheon a couple of years ago where I believe it was
01:46:16: PNR Publishing gave me a copy of that book for every pastor that attended. Well, he is really bringing back, trying to bring back into view, you know, this important role of the shepherd leader.
01:46:30: Is he a tuba player with the Westminster Brass? I apologize, brother,
01:46:35: I didn't hear what you said. Is he a tuba player with the Westminster Brass, Timothy Whitmer? I don't know.
01:46:42: I think he may be. I think he may be. I think he was just at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, and he said,
01:46:50: I've still got to do that interview with you, and I'm almost positive it was him. He was, like, rushing out the door when he, when he, carrying his tuba.
01:47:01: What do you mean by a household of overcomers? Well, you know,
01:47:09: I think that we, you know, we don't, we are saved individually, and we are justified, you know, by Christ as individuals, but we are not left by ourselves, that we are saved into a body, into a family, and that we need each other, that the lone wolf
01:47:28: Christian life idea is a failing one, that we need each other.
01:47:34: And Hebrews talks about how important, there in chapter three, referencing back to that, how important it is that we encourage one another daily, or else we fall into sin.
01:47:48: We become, under the subject, the hardness of heart. And so, you know, if we're going to survive, and I think that you look at the, look at where we are right now in the world today, and you know, it would seem that it's going probably to be harder, not easier.
01:48:10: And as Christians, you know, we do need to support one another in that, not just from a practical perspective, but most importantly from a spiritual perspective.
01:48:20: We were not meant to face the world alone.
01:48:25: We were meant to face it in Christ, and with each other, united in Christ.
01:48:31: And so I'm assuming you're really talking about the vital need for genuine friendships to be forged amongst brothers and sisters in Christ.
01:48:42: Oh absolutely, yes. And go ahead. Excuse me,
01:48:49: I'm sorry? No, go ahead. I was going to say that, don't you think that the church, the members of the church, the body of Christ, have to be less concerned with their own pleasures, and even some of the things that are responsibilities that are at home, and so on.
01:49:16: And I'm not saying that they should have no concern over those things. Right. But the fact that, you know, the typical life of a church is that people are gathering and seeing each other.
01:49:30: If these people are really committed, active members, they're seeing each other three times a week, once on a prayer meeting and twice a service.
01:49:42: And if they are the ordinary evangelical, just once a week on a Sunday. And then, basically, it's a dash to the parking lot, because you want to make sure you get to the bakery before it closes as you're fighting traffic, and people want to get home to watch the football game and all that.
01:50:02: And these people in the church are no more than the acquaintance at work that you pass in the hallway and say, hey, how are you?
01:50:11: Right. And you don't really care how they are, and they don't care how you are, but you say that because it's a tradition. Hey, how are you?
01:50:17: Right. And that the people in the church who are already supposed to be the mature seasoned believers have to be more aggressive and zealous in reaching out to people, especially that those that they either don't know very well, and maybe visitors or people who have they've noticed coming for even years, or perhaps their members, but they've never reached out to that person.
01:50:44: And I understand it is quite true that some people, many people, have to stop whining and complaining and do the reaching out themselves instead of waiting around to have somebody reach out to them, but at the same time, the more seasoned and mature
01:51:00: Christian, the onus is really on them to break the ice, to aggressively try to form friendships with people, because without friendships in Christ, it is very easy for people to backslide into sin, to just get weary of the game of church.
01:51:25: It becomes looked upon as just an act where you're putting on your Sunday best, and then you're just going home and living any way you want to.
01:51:35: And it's a sad and tragic thing. I mean, I even know in my own life,
01:51:41: I sadly, after being sober for 18 years and free from alcohol, and this is no reprimand to my brothers who have a liberty to moderately and responsibly drink alcohol,
01:51:53: I'm talking about a very serious and dangerous level of alcohol addiction that I re -entered after 18 years of sobriety, and a lot of that had to do with my own slipping away from the fellowship and the friendship of the body of Christ.
01:52:12: And I just think that it is a vital thing, as you've been saying throughout this part. Relationships are very important, because once you become more and more anonymous and hiding in the shadows, it's much more easy to begin to be lured back into the sins of the past.
01:52:33: Right, absolutely. And we do need each other in order to make those steps, and I think that one way to look at it is that we're saved for the purpose of living for God's glory, and that is just what it is.
01:52:53: Living is living. Living is a way of life. You know, in the New Testament, the followers of Christ were talking about people that are committed to the way, and that is something that is not individually done.
01:53:07: That's something that is done in community. You know, I know some elderly people, elderly ladies in fact,
01:53:15: I think are the primary, the movers and shakers of what
01:53:21: I'm about to say. They live in a nursing home, live in a nursing home, and every month, there's about three or four of these elderly folks,
01:53:37: I think three are women and one is a man, and every month they each pick a person from the church and they invite that person to lunch at the nursing home, because it's just like a nice little cafe there.
01:53:53: It's not anything that would remind you necessarily of being in a nursing home other than the fact that most of the people eating there are elderly.
01:54:00: And they pay for that person's lunch, and they just think that that is such an important thing to do, to get to know people in the church.
01:54:08: And to me, it's kind of remarkable that it's these people who are residents in a nursing home that are doing this.
01:54:14: It's not the church doing it or the people who are younger married folks with kids at home and stuff.
01:54:23: It's really these elderly folks that are doing it, and it's pretty impressive. It's something that I think should be imitated by people in and out of a nursing home.
01:54:32: Yes. Well, we are saved for the purpose of a relationship, and we need those relationships to help us live that primary relationship with our
01:54:44: Creator and Redeemer. Well, I'd like you to basically summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we run out of time.
01:54:54: Well, I think that number one, you know, is that the transforming power that we all are looking for in our lives to overcome our own struggles with sin, our own struggles with each other, you know, is found, you know, once again, in the
01:55:11: Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that we need to become much more aware of who we are in Christ, and when we're reading the
01:55:18: Scriptures, to be clear, not to see what the imperatives are, but to always see that the indicatives of who we are in Christ are always presented right there next to the imperatives, so that real transformation takes place, so that real ministry out of love takes place.
01:55:35: So that would be my first point. My second point is, you know, that we would commit to relationships with each other.
01:55:43: You know, if you're in a church and your leaders don't really put a high priority on relationships, you step out.
01:55:49: You find someone that you can connect with and begin to pray for and meet with and get into their life and help them to see, you know, their struggles in light of, you know, what
01:56:01: Christ has accomplished and how His full accomplishment is what they need in the situation that they're dealing with.
01:56:09: So the Gospel first, and then the relationships that are necessary for getting to know each other on a level where we can understand what's going on enough in each other's lives to be able to apply, you know, that truth of what
01:56:22: Christ has done for us in those areas. Now, if you wouldn't mind, there are people that listen to this program that I have discovered who aren't even believers.
01:56:34: If you could, give us a summary of what the Gospel is. Yes. Well, I would say to those that are listening that have not made a profession of faith in Christ, that what
01:56:47: Christ offers you is not merely a payment for your sin.
01:56:57: You probably have heard that and heard that over and over again, but what Christ really offers in addition to payment and the penalty of our sin is that He offers us true life.
01:57:10: He offers us the opportunity to live life as we were created by Him to live, and what does that mean?
01:57:17: That lives, that means living in relationship with Him. A relationship where He says,
01:57:23: I'm going to provide what you need for your life, and He holds that out to us, and we receive that daily by faith as we look to Him, and so my encouragement to the unbeliever, to the person who does not know
01:57:39: Christ, is just that Christ offers more than payment for the penalty of sin. Christ offers a new life, and it is a life that is definitely worth living.
01:57:50: It is a life of freedom and peace, and I have seen that in my own life personally.
01:57:57: I'm glad that I can say that the things I'm talking about have shaped me, and so I would commend them to you, and if I could, take the opportunity to say even to the non -believer, but also to the believer, that we have a resource called
01:58:12: Who Are You? A Discovery of Who We Are in Christ, and it's a very simple booklet with 12 identity statements from Scripture, as well as some applications.
01:58:22: Very simple resource, and I would be delighted to send everybody a link to download that if they wanted it, and all they need to do is email me at eric at unitingchurchandhome .com,
01:58:35: or more simply, eric at uchlink .org. Eric, E -R -I -C at uchlink .org,
01:58:42: and I'd be happy to send you the link for that. That's u -c -h -link, and I have .com
01:58:48: for your website. I don't know if it's both, .org and .org. Well, .com, .org, we have both domains.
01:58:54: Okay, it's u -c -h for Uniting Church at Home, u -c -h -link, l -i -n -k, .com or .org,
01:59:01: and also, obviously, I want all of our listeners to know that the perfect and righteous
01:59:09: One who suffered and died and received the wrath of His Father on our behalf, and rose again, and ascended to be seated at the right hand of the
01:59:22: Father, where He is ruling and reigning now, He is the only way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the
01:59:28: Father but through Him, and I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater