June 1, 2022 Show with Dr. Mark Ward on “King James Only-ism & Confessional Bibliology: Comparison & Contrast (& the Dangers of Both)”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com this is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this very first day of June 2022 and I am very Thrilled to have as a guest today a brilliant young man Dr. Mark Ward.

This is his first guest appearance on iron sharpens iron radio. He received his BA from Bob Jones University and his MA and PhD From Bob Jones seminary. He's the author of multiple books including Authorized the use and misuse of the King James Bible and he's a faculty member at Reform Baptist Seminary today.

We are going to be addressing a very controversial theme that is even beginning to divide Reformed Baptist brethren and that is King James only ism and confessional Bibliology Comparison and contrast and the dangers of both and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever The iron sharpens iron radio dr. Mark Ward.

First of all, tell our listeners about Reform Baptist Seminary.

It's led by a really respected gracious godly friend of mine who also has his P number of years. I've jumped in and done some lectures for them. It may be a little bit of a stretch to say I teach there but the whole modular system means that the Leave and then my interaction with past Bob and this is ultimately why we're talking do a special for me to do so.

And that Lecture I gave at Reform Baptist Seminary. I revised Into an academic article that was produced in in the Detroit Baptist great.

And if anybody wants more information on Reform Baptist Seminary, you could go to their website RB seminary org RB seminary dot org. We have a tradition here on iron sharpens iron radio Dr. Ward where whenever we have a first-time guest on the program.

When that first-time guest is a Christian there are rare occasions I have non-christians as guests because they have something to say that The body of Christ should hear even if they themselves are not Christian, but the vast majority of times I have Bible-believing regenerate men and women on the program and When I do have them for the first time I have them give a summary of their salvation testimony.

That would include The kind of religious atmosphere if any in which they were raised and also, what kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and Save them and that would include you.

Let's hear your story. I'd like to do this and I love to hear other people's testimonies. I love this practice of yours. My parents were both providential circumstances ran into each other on an elevator in the Washington DC area in the late 70s and My mother actually ended up a few people that I've ever known who was saved.

Reading his Bible on his own all by himself. She pulled him into church. They were in good healthy Bible churches in the northern for growing up years. My dad also worked for Word of Life and we ended up back in the DC landed in the an independent fundamental Baptist Church that was King James only and that's one of the reasons we're talking today and Whereas a lot of people on the internet say, you know, they they complain about and are bitter about there I had a good experience.

I was loved and got the message You've got to trust the Bible and you can trust the Bible and I remember that pastor saying more than one. You come to my office with an open Bible and you know. You you need to trust the Bible even over what I say to my parents were teaching I made a profession of faith at age four.

I remember softball game. Wow, and I remember my dad in a big line behind it. You know, I've come to think it really is that you know, it's maybe more it's more complicated but not a whole lot like that's.

It yes follow Christ. But I you know growing up in the church being a church kid being there Sunday morning Sunday night Wednesday night. Having parents who were sincere. Excuse me, but you know, certainly not perfect any more than I am.

I had to come to that point where in my teenage years around 14 to 1. So whether I was saved at age 4 a the Lord saved me and it's up to him, you know. What's the precise date? Well, I know that amen and.

My very dear longtime friend, dr. James are white Was one of the folks that I have met over the years who was baptized at a very young age. I think if I'm not Remembering incorrectly. He may have been baptized when he was eight years old.

I Usually look at those kinds of baptisms with great suspicion, but in dr. White's case He was already on his fourth book and his doctoral dissertation was halfway completed.

But anyway, I wasn't that far along in my studies for sure.

By the way, and dr. White sends his warm greetings to you.

Yeah, thank you very much. I appreciated the shout out. It must be what the reason you're calling.

Yes, exactly. And. As far as coming to discover and embrace reform theology knowing that your background is from independent fundamentalist Baptist I know that there are a Number probably a small minority of those in that category who are Calvinists.

But most that I have met are not. So. How did you come to embrace? Or the reform faith.

You know the roots really do lie in my time in Churches that use the King James and probably even in that King James only as church because of what that pastor said. He said come into my office with an open Bible if you've got a complaint or problem.

I mean the Bible is the norm and the standard. And Again, although I sadly have to have to come to disagree over the King James only stance and over the anti-calvinist stance I believe and in their efforts to teach me to read it and to Bob Jones University Oh vastly increased under the reading the Bible and confidence that I can stick with what it says whole point of this Bible.

Answer to The Lord if he said to me, have you not read. I can say yes. I did Lord and I worked my hardest. And Bob Jones is and it's not anti-calvinist. It's officially neutral because it was finalist modernist controversy of the 20s at a time when people Truly evangelical people were escaping the liberal denominations and how so part of the DNA of the school is that we don't argue about this.

It's actually actually when I was a student there back in the late 90s or 2000. You weren't even allowed to argue about. Of course because they didn't they knew it was divisive and gained Bible Understanding without the press wealth in the reform tradition and that more important praise God.

Yes.

And I think that it is very important that we Differentiate ourselves from people who like to bash Independent fundamentalist Baptists. In fact, of course, there are many independent fundamentalist Baptists who love to bash us as well but I have many dear friends that I have Maintained with whose friendship I have maintained Over the decades who are in that category a number of whom are even King James only folk when I worked for WMC a radio 570 a .m. In New York for 15 years, which is a Salem media affiliate.

I actually helped Helped a number of independent fundamentalist Baptists Develop a radio program called the fundamental Baptist forum. I even came up the name of that On occasion that would come back to haunt me because there were some very vocal Anti-calvinists that would occasionally host it.

This was a program that was Hosted by quite a number of fundamentalist Baptist pastors who took turns but in spite of Sometimes regretting that I was a part of the development of that program I grew to love quite a number of these men and Consider them my brothers.

In fact, even though they know that I'm not under the umbrella of independent fundamentalist King James only Baptists quite a number of them would come to my Biannual iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheons Even before I had my radio program when I was just holding pastors luncheons A Number of them would come and would express how much they enjoyed themselves and loved the speakers.

So Just want to make sure that we are not attacking these brothers And we're not attacking the King James Bible that seems to be a knee-jerk reaction From many folks. It's it's ironic how Many in that camp of King James only ism and of course, there's many different kinds of King James onlyists But many in that camp will feel very free to openly attack other translations of the Bible even the New King James Bible and Attack those that use them, but they will immediately put themselves very often on the defense.

I can remember Years ago in the 90s when I was filling in for Andy Anderson the host of Andy Anderson live on WMC a radio I was filling in for him and I had dr White on as my guest to discuss his book the King James only controversy and a pastor who was using the studio Immediately after I was finished Barged in furious and said how dare you attack the King James Bible?

And I said I said brother did you listen to the program? Yeah, I gave a caveat of about five minutes telling our listeners how much I love the King James Bible and how mightily God has used it throughout history and it seems to me that if you disagree with King James only us you are immediately accused of hating and attacking the King James Bible Which is not what right I did nor what you are doing.

Yeah, I need to say Bob Jones University, although it was in the independent fundamental and still basically is. That's kind of the flavor there. They were never King James only of Peter Ruckman who ironically sadly also had.

I'm really embarrassed. But Bob Jones as an institution was not guilty of the kind of obscurantism That a lot of independent fundamental Baptists are guilty of and anti intellectualism. I'm not going to say that never happened there.

Surely every institution has its fault. But I was given excellent tools for understanding and I'm very grateful for my education there. I don't want anybody to think that I'm rebelling against my BJU.

That's exactly right the very first thing so many people say to me Christian people who ought to know better who. And I have precisely one video on my youtube channel, which dedicates a lot of time to the King James only controversy.

Precisely one in which I posit that there was an error in the King James on a very obscure Line in that, you know, there's utterly no doctor minor metaphor that he makes about he says I was as I work that I am.

Which is what they themselves said in their prophet that only appear once and they weren't sure they understood them. So here's the one Video I've made where but I was doing no more than what they did and in every other video I'm doing I've done doesn't know a lot of them about the King James.

All I'm doing is trying to take the ESP to let King and by the way going back to BJU.

Dr. Custer from what I have heard from Former students of his he would recommend dr. White spoke the King James only controversy. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, and I go ahead. I'm sorry good. No, it's just her and that's what actually was my conversion out of King James. Only is him although I hardly realized at the time. I was so young I wasn't planning to be a Bible teacher.

I was planning to be a graphic designer. I was a graphic design major, but pastor minute was so careful with his Bible teaching he had won my trust in a controversy with another fundamentalist College and.

Steve Lee who is the founder of sermon audio audio. Yes, he Has a conference that he runs. I believe it may still be annually. But it might be it might not be that frequently anymore, but the foundation's conference.

I went to one in Manhattan. He is a graduate of Bob Jones University and one of the speakers Was the current president of Bob Jones University Steve Pettit and he was. He was the only one on the roster that did not openly Identify himself with the label of reformed.

But I can tell you that his message was unmistakably preaching the reformed ordo salutis. So It I was. I was sitting there very pleased with the message that came from Steve. Especially since the history of BJU prior to you Being there.

It was more vehemently Anti-Calvinist that in earlier days.

It's a really complicated story and I don't want to get BJU in trouble because there are but in my estimation There has always been in any time period that I'm aware. There were a logical counter when I say that's what's most important want to be saved and I need to know how I can Receive Christ's mercy.

But my my teachers because they wouldn't use labels for themselves They they helped me not be part of the cage stage, you know, I I just kind of Realized at the old King James only pastor surely I don't think they're so difficult and it was my teachers there at Bob Jones who helped me read it I think with with clarity, so I won't say all of them are Calvinist, you know.

Healthy for me.

Great and tell us about authorized the use and misuse of the King James Bible the book that you have written.

Yeah authorized to transition to that now because I've been thinking recently. This book and all the work that I've done on the King James only controversy is a love letter. I'm not in vain against Pete separate over doctrinal error.

Which I'm still willing to do and want to do whenever the Lord calls me to it. Through his word and through certain that movement was split largely in brothers. To doctrinal fidelity and therefore to Chris and here here's how I got into writing authorized.

I of course, I read James White's book and it's excellent and I'm not quite the specialist on New Testament text and how there are so many details, you know. It's hard to write a book that size without saying something that you might want to fix later.

But you know the overall me and many others and I'm on the same team as him. I finally didn't meet him today over a Facebook messenger, by the way I'm very yeah, very appreciate but what I found his own book, but they were often kind of the cream of the crop the people that within the King James only world who had gone the furthest and their studies and Therefore could even if it was still difficult to them, you know, they were the most do then.

Hold in to my to Bob Jones the great Randy Leidy of anti Greek guy calm now the diagram the entire Greek New Testament in Greek for Bible works and now for log off. He made a comment in class one time he said hey you prefer the Texas Receptus, you know.

The Greek New Testament edition underlying the King James very broadly speaking. We'll get into more details about that. I'm sure he said fine make or use a translation of it into contemporary English and it suddenly hit me.

Wow. That makes total sense, you know, the most responsible King James only as they're all saying the text is the issue. You know, we're trying to defend the traditional or ecclesiastical text. You know didn't pass down all these centuries teen year old when I was first encountering King James only as them poor were bad dudes.

They couldn't be trusted. They were a cultist. Where was I going to check him out? You know, he was supposed to know this stuff. It sure seemed like he did Otherwise trustworthy. I don't think I did have a moral fault.

So what I started to think was if I had a moral fault if there was a place where I was violating the Bible. You know God's revealed word word and will by my acceptance of King. It was it was a not seeing that hey it actually is a problem.

That there are all these archaic words in the King James that people don't know anymore and first Corinthians 14 Which I read as a teenager Teaches that edification requires intelligibility. I've got a sign in my office now that that says that if you're gonna edify and build people up.

They have to be able to understand. So I realized I Think that's certainly need the textual critical angle to and people like finally getting into this work I have done some helpful work on it. But I wanted to make something that was accessible to the plow boys for whom William Tyndale translated the Bible into English something that focused on.

By the way, just for a point of clarification Our guest said plow boys not the proud boys. Yes. We all know how much President Trump got in trouble for that, but anyway We're we're going into our first break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr. Mark Ward our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. C h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are in a King James only congregation and you are Not ready to identify yourself as somebody who is opposed to that way of thinking.

Or maybe you're even a pastor of a church That is King James only and you are have become to reconsider your position on that. Whatever the case may be that would compel you to remain anonymous. We understand and will grant your request, but please if it's just a general question, please give us your first name.

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We are back with dr. Mark Ward and He is on the faculty at Reformed Baptist Seminary. We are discussing King James only ism and confessional bibliology comparison and contrast and the dangers of both and.

Our email address is Chris arms in the gmail .com. Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence and. Obviously We cannot broad brush King James only ism and we don't have time to meticulously analyze every branch of that movement because even.

There are those in that movement that would radically oppose Others that identify themselves as King James only. There are many people who radically opposed Peter Ruckman. There are many people in that movement that opposed Gail Ripplinger.

And we could go on and on and on about the different streams. But could it you at least? Before we go into the confessional bibliology camp. Analyze of in a more of a summary view the major differences that lie within King James only ism.

Yeah, actually. Some friends and I who run a very very small outfit. We we do have. Seven plus hours in video format. We've worked hard on that and especially my good friend Tim Berg of KJBhistory .com and We kind of divided up into two extreme views and three moderate views.

I can do this really quickly. The two extreme views are Ruckman ism and King James only. So Ruckman ism. Peter Ruckman BJ you graduate just like me from a long time ago. And he believes in double inspiration that the King James improves on the autograph that you know.

It itself is the object of divine inspiration. That's an extreme view and you're exactly right. Most King James only is rejects that view. The King James only view as we call it believes that the the actual text, you know.

Autographic text of the Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament are preserved only in the King James as the termination of a pure stream of preservation. So Gail Ripplinger would be here. David Daniels of chick publications.

It is a little different from Ruckman ism, but it's still an extreme view. Rejected by the mainstream King James only. Then there are three moderate views. You got your King James defenders where the King James is just the standard.

Your King James TR defender and the Greek New Testament underlying it the text is receptive. We're like favored cloud PR defenders and that's kind of what brought us together today. Confessional bibliology, but I would say the King James could in principle be revised.

But the TR is above revision. So EF Hills and the Trinitarian Bible Society would be here. I hope. I think I'm representing every view accurately in terms that you know. They would nod their heads to that can be a little difficult.

I would really be open to correction now.

Where would some of our friends people who I love to hear preach and have interviewed on this program? Who I would consider very sane and rational people Who only use the King James who are frequently seen in?

Reformed Bible conferences preaching on the same roster as people who do not use the King James People. I'm speaking of people like those within the Heritage Reform Church denomination Which was founded by dr. Joel Beakey one of my favorite preachers and authors.

And you have the denomination Known as the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and Free Presbyterian Church of North America Who only use the King James Bible in their pulpits. And I Have never heard somebody from that denomination that I didn't love hearing preach.

So you have those folks. Do you know where they would land in this spectrum that you've described?

Yes, that's a great question. I love that question to give credit of a given viewpoint, right? You know go after the what they're talking about. So in my book authorized it was Joel Beakey and Mike Barrett up at PRTF that I I was.

I hope you'll incredible amounts of respect for these godly and incredibly knowledgeable and Industrious you talk about you know a workhorse Joel Beakey just gets. I've got his book reform preaching up on my shelf.

I came out here to Washington to be a part of trained at PRTF and Has done some editing work for Joel Beakey and written for RHB. So I'm just trying to put it out there. Yes, I respect these men to. Beakey makes what he calls a practical case.

He does not make a doctrinal case and so he doesn't tend to fit as he isn't King James only they use the new King James. For exactly the reasons I think they should as far as I can tell what I've been told.

You know, they recognize and then the free Presbyterians. It's a little more complicated there. I know Stephen Lee and I believe he lives in Greenville, South Carolina. Still I was there for 18 years.

Bill yes, I met him friendly with Bob Jones. Yeah, a lot of Bob Jones do about it and careful. I don't end up agreeing with him, but I recognize in him someone who's working hard to be careful and responsible and charitable Ian Paisley for whom I have a lot of respect to.

He's now deceased. Of course. I heard him preach at Bob Jones. He was actually a great friend of Bob Jones jr. And used to come every year to preach at the annual Bible conference and what a preacher.

He was more of a King James defender. I I've not actually read his book. My plea for the old sword. But there is a strain of actual King James only as I'm with in the pre credit gather. I'm not certain about this but because of you and of course since it is since Ian Paisley is in heaven.

We know that he supports the New American Standard Bible.

Now he's NASB only.

He.

Was unfortunately, although an excellent preacher. He was less responsible and knowledgeable in his defense and that is problematic. But I just want to be the you know. The second I guess to say because you just said it that there are many wonderful godly men and preachers in that world.

And they can preach James Bible that I'm very grateful for. And a brother who's preaching.

I absolutely love in fact when he was still pastoring in the United States before returning To Northern Ireland John Greer he is in the Free Presbyterian Church of North America and When on Long Island, New York preaching at the church where I was a member Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island.

He was on the roster at a conference. We had on the five points of Calvinism and Brother Greer said that although he only used the authorized version as he Called it from his pulpit. He actually believed it was heresy to call other versions Being not the Bible to label them as not being scripture.

He thought that was heresy.

You know hair has a mere insult I have not used that word as far as I know on my channel or in because it is so offensive but I. Actually if you look at the it just means division and there have been a ton of division created by King James only.

And what do you call a Doctrine taught in the Bible and causes a ton of division. I think heresy is a good candidate. So I'm eager to line up with brothers out there who use the King James who love it who prefer it.

But who also are pushing back against the divisive forms of King James only of them that are all too common, especially.

Yes, and the aforementioned Foundations conference that Steve Lee Launched a number of years ago. It is good to see men from the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and North America Preaching at those conferences on the same roster with people who are using modern translations.

Absolutely, so they're not dividing over this right. They're willing to fellowship with these brothers and and I have you that the English is still hard. And I don't think these men always have. I don't know how they don't know this, you know.

They're evangelistic men. Haven't they talked to people like I have. Literally hundreds perhaps to whom I would quote King James verses and their eyes would glaze. I still have that problem. Agreement.

We can we can. A disagreement we can agree to have because they're not committing heresy and.

Before we go to our midway break. I just want to throw out there That I used to love to listen to the preaching of an independent fundamentalist Baptist Jack Green who happens to be also a landmark Baptist on top of all that.

From landmark Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas. Who is now on the mission field in Thailand? He is a One that only uses the King James Bible as well and I still very much loved his preaching and Just thought I'd throw that out there.