June 1, 2022 Show with Dr. Mark Ward on “King James Only-ism & Confessional Bibliology: Comparison & Contrast (& the Dangers of Both)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this very first day of June 2022.

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And I am very thrilled to have as a guest today a brilliant young man,

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Dr. Mark Ward. This is his first guest appearance on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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He received his B .A. from Bob Jones University and his M .A. and Ph .D. from Bob Jones Seminary.

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He's the author of multiple books, including Authorized, The Use and Misuse of the

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King James Bible, and he's a faculty member at Reform Baptist Seminary. Today we are going to be addressing a very controversial theme that is even beginning to divide

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Reformed Baptist brethren, and that is King James -onlyism and confessional bibliology, comparison and contrast, and the dangers of both.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Mark Ward.

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Thank you so much for having me, Chris. First of all, tell our listeners about Reform Baptist Seminary.

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It's led by a really respected, gracious, godly friend of mine who also has his Ph .D. from Bob Jones Seminary, Bob Gonzalez, and for a number of years

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I've jumped in and done some lectures for them. It may be a little bit of a stretch to say

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I teach there, but the whole modular system means that the professors do tend to come in for a time and then leave, and then my interaction with students is

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I grade their papers, and I've actually really enjoyed that over time. I did some lectures, about seven or eight, on hermeneutics, on Bible translation, on exegesis, and then

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I asked Bob, and this is ultimately why we're talking together, I asked him several years ago if I could do a special lecture on what

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I saw as a growing problem among my conservative Reformed brethren, and that, of course, is what

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I am, this growing movement of confessional bibliology, and Bob was happy for me to do so, and that lecture

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I gave at Reform Baptist Seminary, I revised into an academic article that was published in May of 2020 in the

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Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal. Great, and if anybody wants more information on Reform Baptist Seminary, you can go to their website, rbseminary .org,

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rbseminary .org. We have a tradition here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Ward, where whenever we have a first -time guest on the program, when that first -time guest is a

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Christian, there are rare occasions I have non -Christians as guests because they have something to say that the body of Christ should hear, even if they themselves are not

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Christian, but the vast majority of times I have Bible -believing, regenerate men and women on the program, and when

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I do have them for the first time, I have them give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which they were raised, and also what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

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Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them, and that would include you.

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Let's hear your story. That's great, yeah, I delight to do this, and I love to hear other people's testimonies.

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I love this practice of yours. My parents were both saved as young adults, and through providential circumstances, ran into each other on an elevator in the

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Washington, D .C. area in the late 70s, and my mother actually ended up helping my father, who is one of the few people that I've ever known who was saved, reading his

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Bible on his own, all by himself. She pulled him into church. They were in good, healthy Bible churches in the northern

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Virginia area, and during my growing -up years, my dad also worked for Word of Life, and then when we ended up back in the

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D .C. area when I was about 12, we landed in an independent, fundamental

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Baptist church that had a Christian school that was King James only, and that's one of the reasons we're talking today.

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Whereas a lot of people on the Internet, they complain about and are bitter about their time in fundamentalist churches,

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I had a good experience. I was loved and treated with fairness and self -sacrifice by my teachers, and I heard the

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Bible preached. I've done some seminaries since then, and maybe

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I would have a little bit different methodology in my preaching, but fundamentally I'm on the same team as that pastor.

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He was just trying to preach the Bible faithfully, and I was listening, and I got the message.

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You've got to trust the Bible, and you can trust the Bible. I remember that pastor saying more than once, if you ever have a problem with anything

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I do, come to my office with an open Bible, and you need to trust the Bible even over what I say.

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I definitely got that message. From an early age, my parents were teaching that same message to me.

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I made a profession of faith at age four. I remember being in the old, ancient VW Bug that my dad was driving home from a church softball game.

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I remember my dad, he told me that you've got to follow Jesus. As a four -year -old,

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I took this very literally. I imagine Jesus, he's the line leader, and he's walking down this path, and everybody's in the big line behind him, and I've got to jump in line.

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I've come to think it really is that, it's maybe more complicated, but not a whole lot. That's it, yes, follow

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Christ. Growing up in the church, being a church kid, being there

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Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, having parents who were sincere, certainly not perfect any more than I am,

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I had to come to that point where I owned this for myself in more than a childlike way, although, of course, childlike faith is a saving faith.

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But in my teenage years, around 14 or 15, I can look back and see that my affections changed.

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I started to want to read my Bible and to want to follow the Lord. So whether I was saved at age four or at age 14 or 15,

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I don't know. I am a Calvinist, and so I'm happy to say the Lord saved me, and it's up to Him what the precise date was.

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I know that I rest in Christ alone for my salvation now. Amen. And my very dear longtime friend,

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Dr. James R. White, was one of the folks that I have met over the years who was baptized at a very young age.

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I think, if I'm not remembering incorrectly, he may have been baptized when he was eight years old.

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I usually look at those kinds of baptisms with great suspicion, but in Dr. White's case, he was already on his fourth book, and his doctoral dissertation was halfway completed.

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Oh, yeah. He was baptized at the age of eight, but I wasn't that far along in my studies, for sure.

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By the way, Dr. White sends his warm greetings to you. Yeah, thank you very much.

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I appreciated the shout -out on Facebook about that article that presumably must be the reason you're calling.

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Yes, exactly. And as far as coming to discover and embrace

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Reformed theology, knowing that your background is from independent fundamentalist baptists, I know that there are a number, probably a small minority, of those in that category who are

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Calvinists, but most that I have met are not. So how did you come to embrace the

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Reformed faith? You know, the roots really do lie in my time in churches that used the

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King James, and probably even in that King James Onlyist Church, because of what that pastor said. He said, come into my office with an open

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Bible if you've got a complaint or problem. I mean, the Bible is the norm and the standard. And again, although I sadly had to come to disagree over the

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King James Only stance and over the anti -Calvinist stance, frankly, at a church like that, I believe absolutely they were sincere in their desire to follow the

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Bible and in their efforts to teach me to read it faithfully and often.

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So I took the reading skills that I gained in that church, that Christian school,

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I took them to Bob Jones University, and of course they were, I hope, vastly increased under the good tutelage of many godly professors in all kinds of disciplines.

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And I had a pastor there, in God's providence, landed in his church, who also gave me real tools for reading the

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Bible and confidence that I can stick with what it says, and an ability to distinguish tradition from what the

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Bible's saying. You know, it's never possible, I don't think, to totally disentangle the two.

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Everybody's going to be part of a tradition, but the whole point of this Bible education that I ended up getting there was giving me the tools to read the

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Bible on my own and interpret it faithfully and to be able to answer to the Lord if he says to me, Have you not read?

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I can say, Yes, I did, Lord, and I worked my hardest with the health of your spirit to understand. And Bob Jones is not

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Calvinist, and it's not anti -Calvinist. It's officially neutral because it was formed in the fundamentalist, modernist controversy of the 20s, at a time when people, truly evangelical people, were escaping the liberal denominations and having to start their own institutions.

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So part of the DNA of the school is that we don't argue about this. It's actually, when I was a student there back in the late 90s or 2000s, you weren't even allowed to argue about it, of course, students did.

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Oh yeah, because they knew it was divisive. And actually, that was helpful for me.

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I could listen to Bible preaching and gain Bible understanding without the pressure of having to take a public side.

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And as time passed, and as the Young Restless Reform Movement wave kind of hit, and I started reading

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John Piper without even being aware that there was such a wave, and listening to my pastors preaching, I came to see that there was wealth in the

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Reform tradition, and that more importantly, it was matching up with what I was reading in my

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Bible. That's how I came to Reform conviction. Praise God, yes. And I think that it is very important that we differentiate ourselves from people who like to bash independent fundamentalist

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Baptists. In fact, of course, there are many independent fundamentalist Baptists who love to bash us as well.

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But I have many dear friends whose friendship

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I have maintained over the decades who are in that category, a number of whom are even

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King James Only folk. When I worked for WMCA Radio 570

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AM in New York for 15 years, which is a Salem media affiliate, I actually helped a number of independent fundamentalist

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Baptists develop a radio program called the Fundamental Baptist Forum. I even came up with the name of that.

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On occasion, that would come back to haunt me because there were some very vocal anti -Calvinists that would occasionally host it.

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This was a program that was hosted by quite a number of fundamentalist Baptist pastors who took turns.

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But in spite of sometimes regretting that I was a part of the development of that program,

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I grew to love quite a number of these men and consider them my brothers. In fact, even though they know that I'm not under the umbrella of independent fundamentalist

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King James Only Baptists, quite a number of them would come to my biannual

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastors' luncheons. Even before I had my radio program, when

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I was just holding pastors' luncheons, a number of them would come and would express how much they enjoyed themselves and loved the speakers.

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I just want to make sure that we are not attacking these brothers. Absolutely.

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And we're not attacking the King James Bible. That seems to be a knee -jerk reaction from many folks.

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It's ironic how many in that camp of King James Onlyism, and of course there's many different kinds of King James Onlyists, but many in that camp will feel very free to openly attack other translations of the

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Bible, even the New King James Bible, and attack those that use them, but they will immediately put themselves very often on the defense.

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I can remember years ago in the 90s when I was filling in for Andy Anderson, the host of Andy Anderson Live on WMCA Radio, I was filling in for him, and I had

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Dr. White on as my guest to discuss his book, The King James Only Controversy.

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And a pastor who was using the studio immediately after I was finished barged in furious and said,

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How dare you attack the King James Bible? And I said, Brother, did you listen to the program?

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I gave a caveat of about five minutes telling our listeners how much

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I love the King James Bible and how mightily God has used it throughout history.

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And it seems to me that if you disagree with King James Onlyists, you are immediately accused of hating and attacking the

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King James Bible, which is not what I did, nor what you are doing. Right, right.

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Yeah, I need to say too, I'll get back to that in one second, but Bob Jones University, although it was in the independent fundamental

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Baptist world and still basically is, that's kind of the flavor there.

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They were never King James Only. And, you know, Stuart Custer, the legendary professor there, was one of the targets of the ire of Peter Ruckman, who ironically sadly also had his

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PhD from Bob Jones back in the late 50s, I believe. And I'm really embarrassed to have to say

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I have the same degree that he does. But Bob Jones as an institution never took that position and was not guilty of the kind of obscurantism that a lot of independent fundamental

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Baptists are guilty of, and anti -intellectualism. I'm not going to say that never happened there.

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Surely every institution has its faults. But I was taught faithfully, and I was given excellent tools for understanding, and I'm very grateful for my education there.

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I don't want anybody to think that I'm rebelling against my BJU roots to be opposed to King James Onlyism.

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But you're exactly right. The very first thing so many people say to me, Christian people who ought to know better, who ought to have listened charitably, is that I hate the

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King James, and I'm criticizing it. And I have precisely one video on my YouTube channel which dedicates a lot of time to the

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King James Only controversy, precisely one in which I posit that there was an error in the

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King James, on a very obscure line in Job 17 that, you know, there's utterly no doctrinal connection there.

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It's a minor metaphor that he makes about, he says, I was as a Tabrit. And I said, based on some careful work that I and other scholars have done, that, you know, they were misunderstanding that, which is what they themselves said in their preface, that there were certain words in Hebrew that only appear once, and they weren't sure they understood them.

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So here's the one video I've made where, okay, yes, I was criticizing the King James, but I was doing no more than what they did.

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And in every other video I'm doing, and I've done dozens now, coming up on 200, a lot of them about the

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King James, all I'm doing is trying to help people understand it because of its archaic English.

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I'm demonstrating the problems that language change brings. But what they're saying to me in the

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King James Only world is that, well, one of them recently drew an analogy to marriage, you know, that if you have one translation, like, you should have only one, and you should be faithful to that one.

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And I just said, come on, brother, where does the Bible tell us that picking a Bible translation is like picking a marriage spouse?

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And, you know, what if I pick the ESV? Am I supposed to stay faithful to it? Yeah, I refuse to let King James Onlyists lay claim to the mantle of the

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King James translators. No, I represent the views of the King James translators. The King James translators were not

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King James Only. Right. And, by the way, going back to BJU, Dr.

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Custer, from what I have heard from former students of his, he would recommend

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Dr. White's book, The King James Only Conquerors. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Oh, go ahead,

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I'm sorry. Go ahead. My pastor back in that area, Mark Minick, he was involved in a book called

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From the Mind of God to the Mind of Man. And that's what actually was my conversion out of King James Onlyism, although I hardly realized it at the time.

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I was so young. I wasn't planning to be a Bible teacher. I was planning to be a graphic designer. I was a graphic design major. But Pastor Minick was so careful with his

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Bible teaching, he had won my trust, absolutely. I just fed and thrived on his expository preaching in Ephesians as a graphic design student, and that was the

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Lord's means of calling me into Bible teaching ministry. He was caught up in a controversy with another fundamentalist college where they had, you know, leveled scurrilous charges at Bob Jones University, and he was forced to teach on bibliology, and I listened carefully.

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I just recently re -listened to some of those addresses, and they were excellent. And that's what got me out of being

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King James Only, is having a careful pastor who very patiently taught me through that issue as our church transitioned at the time from the

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King James to Liberty to use other good translations, like at the time the NASB and New King James.

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And Steve Lee, who is the founder of Sermon Audio.

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Yes, Sermon Audio. Yes, he has a conference that he runs.

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I believe it may still be annually, but it might not be that frequently anymore.

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But the Foundations Conference, I went to one in Manhattan. He is a graduate of Bob Jones University, and one of the speakers was the current president of Bob Jones University, Steve Pettit.

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And he was the only one on the roster that did not openly identify himself with the label of Reformed, but I can tell you that his message was unmistakably preaching the

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Reformed Ordo Salutis. So I was sitting there very pleased with the message that came from Steve, especially since the history of BJU prior to you being there, it was more vehemently anti -Calvinist in earlier days.

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It's a really complicated story, and I don't want to get BJU in trouble because there are pastors who are really concerned about this issue.

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But since you raised it, in my estimation, there has always been in any time period that I'm aware of, sort of a tension going on there, which is one of the reasons they had that rule when

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I was a student that you couldn't argue about it. And if there was a tension, that meant that there were theological Calvinists, which is where I tend to focus.

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When I say Reformed, that's what I tend to mean. That's what's most important to me, more so than the particular understanding of the covenants that many

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Reformed people have. That's important, too, but to me it's a soteriology. I want to be saved, and I need to know how

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I can receive Christ's mercy. But my teachers, because they wouldn't use labels for themselves, they helped me not be part of the cage stage.

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I just kind of realized as time passed, oh, when

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I read these Bible passages that my old King James -only pastor would have said, those are very, very difficult,

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Romans 9 -11, very difficult to interpret. Actually, I don't think they're so difficult. And it was my teachers there at Bob Jones who helped me read it,

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I think, with clarity. So I won't say all of them are Calvinists. It was actually kind of healthy for me at that time that we weren't using that label.

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We were just focused on the Bible. Great, and tell us about Authorized, the use and misuse of the

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King James Bible, the book that you have written. Yeah, Authorized is kind of interesting for us to transition to that now, because I've been thinking recently, this book and all the work that I've done on the

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King James -only controversies, plural, is a love letter to fundamentalism.

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I am very grateful for the strength of fundamentalism, both the

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King James -only variety insofar as it impacted me in high school and the much more careful and, to me, positive experience

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I had at Bob Jones University. But King James -onlyism has been a doctrinal cancer.

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Now, hear me here, it's not the people. I'm not inveighing against people other than some real nasty ones like Peter Ruckman.

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Most of the people who have been infected by this, in my estimation and in my experience, were people who loved the

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Lord and just kind of accidentally fell into a doctrinal trap. But the

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King James -onlyists ate up fundamentalism, in my estimation, and a movement that used to be united in some conservative principles and willingness to separate over doctrinal error, which

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I'm still willing to do and want to do whenever the Lord calls me to it, through His Word and through circumstances, that movement was split largely over this.

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And I care about it so much because this has done exactly what you talked about when you prayed before this interview.

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I was so touched by it. You said, Lord, repair broken relationships that have been broken by this terrible controversy.

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And that's why I wrote the book. I want to restore Erwin Brothers to doctrinal fidelity and therefore to Christian unity.

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And here's how I got into writing Authorized. Of course, I read James White's book, and it's excellent.

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I'm not quite the specialist on New Testament textual criticism. There are so many details.

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It's hard to write a book that size without saying something that you might want to fix later. But the overall drift of it was very helpful to me and many others.

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And I'm on the same team as him. I finally did meet him today over Facebook Messenger, by the way. Oh, great.

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I'm very appreciative of that. But what I found was that the people who were helped by that book were, in my experience, and he would know better about his own book, but they were often kind of the cream of the crop, the people within the

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King James -only world who had gone the furthest in their studies and therefore could track with discussion of New Testament textual criticism, even if it was still difficult for them.

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They were the most studious. But the great majority of King James -onlyists in the pews and in the pulpits, in the

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IFB world at least, they haven't been given the opportunity to have great

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Bible training in Greek and Hebrew. And they needed an argument that didn't delve into textual criticism at all.

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So a professor of mine at Bob Jones, the great Randy Leidy of NTGreekGuide .com, now who diagrammed the entire

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Greek New Testament in Greek for BibleWorks and now for Logos, he made a comment in class one time.

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He said, hey, you prefer the Texas Receptus, the Greek New Testament edition underlying the

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King James, very broadly speaking. We'll get into more details about that, I'm sure. He said, fine, make or use a translation of it into contemporary

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English. And it suddenly hit me, wow, that makes total sense. The most responsible

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King James -onlyists are all saying the text is the issue. We're trying to defend the traditional or ecclesiastical text.

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It's been passed down all these centuries. And as a 15 - or 14 -year -old, when I was first encountering

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King James -onlyism, how could I know any better than my pastor? He's telling me Westcott and Hort were bad dudes.

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They couldn't be trusted. They were occultists. Where was I going to check him out? He was supposed to know this stuff.

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It sure seemed like he did. And what was my moral fault then for believing my pastor who was otherwise trustworthy?

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I don't think I did have a moral fault. So what I started to think was, if I had a moral fault, if there was a place where I was violating the

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Bible, God's revealed word and will by my acceptance of King James -onlyism, it was in not seeing that, hey, it actually is a problem that there are all these archaic words in the

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King James that people don't know anymore. And 1 Corinthians 14, which I read as a teenager, teaches that edification requires intelligibility.

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I've got a sign in my office now that says that. If you're going to edify and build people up, they have to be able to understand.

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So I realized, I think that's the angle that the church needs.

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They certainly need the textual critical angle, too, and people like James White and friends of mine, and now

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I'm finally getting into this work myself, or have done some helpful work on it, but I wanted to make something that was accessible to the plowboys for whom

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William Tyndale translated the Bible into English, something that focused on a language we actually speak rather than arguing about Greek and Hebrew, which most people don't have access to.

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By the way, just for a point of clarification, our guest said plowboys, not the proud boys.

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Yes. Thank you for that. We all know how much

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President Trump got in trouble for that. But anyway, we're going into our first break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr.

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Mark Ward, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are in a King James only congregation, and you are not ready to identify yourself as somebody who is opposed to that way of thinking.

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Or maybe you're even a pastor of a church that is King James only, and you have come to reconsider your position on that.

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Whatever the case may be that would compel you to remain anonymous, we understand and will grant your request.

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But please, if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Dr. Mark Ward right after these messages from our sponsors.

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We are discussing King James -onlyism and confessional bibliology, comparison and contrast and the dangers of both.

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And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

39:17

And obviously we cannot broad brush King James -onlyism and we don't have time to meticulously analyze every branch of that movement because even there are those in that movement that would radically oppose others that identify themselves as King James -only.

39:39

There are many people who radically opposed Peter Ruckman. There are many people in that movement that opposed

39:47

Gail Riplinger. And we could go on and on and on about the different streams but could you at least, before we go into the confessional bibliology camp, analyze in more of a summary view the major differences that lie within King James -onlyism?

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Yeah, actually some friends and I who run a very, very small outset, we augustly entitled the

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Textual Confidence Collective. We do have seven plus hours of seven podcasts in video format also coming out, we're going to start in July once a week.

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We've worked hard on that, especially my good friend Tim Berg of KJBhistory .com

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and we kind of divided up into two extreme views and three moderate views. I can do this really quickly.

40:37

The two extreme views are Ruckmanism and King James -only. So Ruckmanism, Peter Ruckman, BJU graduate, just like me, but from a long time ago and opposed to the school, he believes in double inspiration, that the

40:49

King James improves on the autograph, that it itself is the object of divine inspiration.

40:55

That's an extreme view and you're exactly right, most King James -onlyists reject that view. The King James -only view, as we call it, believes that the actual text, autographic text of the

41:09

Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament are preserved only in the King James as the termination of a pure stream of preservation.

41:18

So Gail Riplinger would be here, David Daniels of Chick Publications. It is a little different from Ruckmanism, but it's still an extreme view rejected by the mainstream

41:30

King James -onlyists. Then there are three moderate views. You've got your King James Defenders, where the

41:36

King James is just the standard. Your King James TR Defenders, where both the

41:42

King James Bible and the Greek New Testament underlying it, the Textus Receptus, are absolute authorities above correction.

41:49

So somebody like David Cloud would be here, or actually my friend, somebody I really like and respect,

41:55

Brian Ross is there. Then you have your TR Defenders, and that's kind of what brought us together today.

42:01

Confessional Bibliology would land here. They would say the King James could, in principle, be revised, but the

42:08

TR is an absolute authority above revision. So E .F. Hills and the

42:13

Trinitarian Bible Society would be here. I hope, I think I'm representing every view accurately in terms that they would nod their heads to.

42:23

That can be a little difficult. I would really be open to correction from any of them sending a private message.

42:29

Those are the major views. Now, where would some of our friends, people who

42:35

I love to hear preach and have interviewed on this program, who

42:40

I would consider very sane and rational people who only use the

42:46

King James, who are frequently seen in Reformed Bible conferences preaching on the same roster as people who do not use the

42:55

King James. I'm speaking of people like those within the

43:01

Heritage Reformed Church denomination, which was founded by Dr. Joel Beakey, one of my favorite preachers and authors.

43:07

You have the denomination known as the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and Free Presbyterian Church of North America, who only use the

43:18

King James Bible in their pulpits. And I have never heard somebody from that denomination that I didn't love hearing preach.

43:26

So you have those folks. Do you know where they would land in this spectrum that you've described?

43:33

Yes, that's a great question. I love that question because I am so eager to give credit where it's due.

43:42

I think Christian charity demands that you interact with the best proponents of a given viewpoint rather than do what's called nut -picking, go after the people who are obviously ignorant, don't know what they're talking about.

43:55

So in my book Authorized, it was Joel Beakey and Mike Barrett up at PRTS, who actually used to teach at Bob Jones.

44:03

His son is a great friend of mine that I quote -unquote picked on. I was,

44:08

I hope, very gracious because I feel incredible amounts of respect for these godly and incredibly knowledgeable and industrious.

44:16

You talk about a workhorse, Joel Beakey just gets so much good stuff done and I'm so grateful for it.

44:23

I've got his book Reform Preaching up on my shelf right now. My pastor of the church that I came out here to Washington to be a part of, trained at PRTS, and has done some editing work for Joel Beakey and written for RHB.

44:37

So I'm just trying to put it out there, yes, I respect these men too. Beakey makes what he calls a practical case for the retention of the

44:45

King James Version. He does not make a doctrinal case. And so he doesn't tend to fit in any of the categories

44:53

I just mentioned because he isn't King James only. They use the new King James for some of their materials at RHB for exactly the reasons

45:01

I think they should. As far as I can tell, what I've been told, they recognize that the King James has archaisms that are difficult for a lot of people today to understand.

45:11

And then the Free Presbyterians, it's a little more complicated there. I know Stephen Lee, and I believe he lives in Greenville, SC still.

45:18

I was there for 18 years, ran into him several times at conferences, etc. Alan Cairns, who was the pastor of Faith Free Presbyterian Church in Greenville.

45:27

Yes, I've met him. Very friendly with Bob Jones. Yeah, a lot of Bob Jones students would go there. He took more of the

45:34

TR view, but was responsible about it and careful. I don't end up agreeing with him, but I recognize in him someone who's working hard to be careful and responsible and charitable.

45:44

Ian Paisley, for whom I have a lot of respect too. He's now deceased, of course. I heard him preach at Bob Jones.

45:50

He was actually a great friend of Bob Jones Jr. and used to come every year to preach at the annual Bible conference.

45:56

What a preacher. He was more of a King James defender.

46:02

I've not actually read his book My Plea for the Old Sword, but there is a strain of actual

46:08

King James -omism within the Free Presbyterian Church, I gather. I'm not certain about this, but because of Ian Paisley taking up that view.

46:18

And of course, since Ian Paisley is in heaven, we know that he supports the New American Standard Bible.

46:26

Now he's NASB only. Dr. Paisley, I have encountered some of his thoughts in the

46:36

King James. He was unfortunately, although an excellent preacher, he was less responsible and knowledgeable in his defense of the

46:42

King James than somebody like Abebe. He did make it more of a doctrinal issue, and that is problematic.

46:48

But I just want to be the second, I guess, to say, because you just said it, that there are many wonderful godly men and preachers in that world, and they can preach wonderful messages from the

46:58

King James Bible that I'm very grateful for. And a brother who's preaching I absolutely love, in fact, when he was still pastoring in the

47:06

United States before returning to Northern Ireland, John Greer, he is in the

47:12

Free Presbyterian Church of North America. And when on Long Island, New York, preaching at the church where I was a member,

47:21

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, he was on the roster at a conference we had on the five points of Calvinism.

47:29

And Brother Greer said that although he only used the authorized version, as he called it, from his pulpit, he actually believed it was heresy to call other versions being not the

47:45

Bible, to label them as not being scripture. He thought that was heresy. I agree.

47:51

And you know, heresy, like the word cult, can get tossed around as a mere insult.

47:58

I have not used that word, as far as I know, on my channel or in my work on King James Zombism, because it is so offensive.

48:05

But I have to agree that, especially if you look at the definition of heresy, sort of the etymological history of it, it just means division.

48:14

And there has been a ton of division created by King James Zombism that's been entirely unnecessary because it isn't true.

48:23

And what do you call a doctrine that actually isn't taught in the Bible and causes a ton of division?

48:30

I think heresy is a good candidate. So I'm eager to line up with brothers out there who use the

48:36

King James, who love it, who prefer it, but who also are pushing back against the divisive forms of King James Zombism that are all too common, especially out there on the

48:46

Internet. Yes, and the aforementioned Foundations Conference that Steve Lee launched a number of years ago, it is good to see men from the

48:59

Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster in North America preaching at those conferences on the same roster with people who are using modern translations.

49:09

Absolutely. So they're not dividing over this. They're willing to fellowship with these brothers. And I have so little complaints about that.

49:17

I still have some complaints, and we might get to that. I mean, basically, that the English is still hard. And I don't think these men always have...

49:25

I don't know how they don't know this. They're evangelistic men, haven't they? Talk to people like I have literally hundreds, perhaps thousands of times to whom

49:35

I would quote King James verses and their eyes would glaze over. They just don't understand the language.

49:40

I still have that problem. But I don't have a doctrinal problem with these men. That's a disagreement we can agree to have because they're not committing heresy.

49:52

And before we go to our midway break, I just want to throw out there that I used to love to listen to the preaching of an independent fundamentalist

50:01

Baptist, Jack Greene, who happens to be also a landmark Baptist on top of all of that, from Landmark Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas, who is now on the mission field in Thailand.

50:17

He is one that only uses the King James Bible as well, and I still very much love his preaching, and just thought

50:28

I'd throw that out there. We have to go to our midway break soon, and for the majority of the remainder of the program, we're going to be discussing confessional bibliology, especially since this is something that has very recently arisen amongst

50:47

Reformed Baptists, and I'm assuming Reformed folk of other fellowships and denominations as well.

50:55

But we will have that compared and contrasted with King James -onlyism, and something tells me that we're going to need at least one more program to discuss this issue with you.

51:08

But if anybody has a question for Dr. Mark Ward, please send it in. We already have a number of people waiting for their questions to be asked and answered, and we ask you to be patient with us.

51:19

We'll get to as many of you as we can, but if you'd like to get in line, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

51:25

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

51:34

U .S .A. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

51:41

So don't go away. We are going to be right back right after these messages with more of Dr. Mark Ward and our subject,

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King James -onlyism and Confessional Bibliology, Comparison and Contrast, and the

51:53

Dangers of Both. We'll be right back after these messages. Attention all men in ministry leadership.

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Before I return to Dr. Mark Ward and our discussion on King James Onlyism and Confessional Bibliology, Comparison and Contrast, and the dangers of both,

01:07:02

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I need a church in the subject line, chrisarns at a gmail dot com, I need a church in the subject line. We are now back with Dr.

01:09:32

Mark Ward, and we are discussing King James -Onlyism and Confessional Bibliology, and Dr.

01:09:37

Ward, now let's get into the Confessional Bibliology, which is really at the heart of our discussion because you and I are

01:09:47

Reformed Baptists, and this is something that has begun to rise up amongst our own fellowships and brethren, so please define

01:09:57

Confessional Bibliology and compare and contrast it with the King James -Only position.

01:10:04

That's an excellent question. It is an important question right now. It is my impression, too, that this small, still very small, movement is growing.

01:10:13

I think, especially among some younger guys, I have speculated that it's the young restless

01:10:19

Reformed folks like me who were influenced by that movement, probably out of some other kind of evangelicalism and who first saw the truths of soteriology as appealing and then came to see perhaps the ecclesiology of the

01:10:33

Reformed tradition appealing, and now some of them the at least alleged bibliology of the

01:10:40

Reformed tradition they're moving into, and that is what the Confessional Bibliologists allege.

01:10:45

They say that if you're going to adopt the Westminster Confession or, of course, it variants the

01:10:52

London Baptist Confession, you're going to have to confess that the Bible text has been, quote, kept pure in all ages.

01:11:01

And they say what Bible text was the Westminster Assembly pointing to?

01:11:08

Well, it had to be the Textus Receptus. That isn't the only argument they make, but that is where they get their name,

01:11:14

Confessional Bibliology. I wouldn't even say it's the main argument that they make. I think, to their credit, they recognize that the

01:11:22

Bible is our norm and ultimately not the Confession. I don't sense that they're giving the

01:11:27

Confession, in this case, too much weight. Others might disagree there.

01:11:32

But then the argument proceeds to point to people like John Owen who were nervous about displaying textual variants in the

01:11:43

Greek New Testament manuscript tradition to the Church, to lay people they thought it would disturb their faith, to see, you know, really if you count them all up, depending on how you count, tens of thousands of differences among Greek New Testament manuscripts.

01:11:57

And I understand that. That is a pastoral challenge. It's the problem. And it's a tempting thing to say, well, we can just cut out the problem entirely by saying, this is the norm, this is the standard.

01:12:10

And that, in my judgment, is what all forms of King James -only -ism do.

01:12:16

They pick a standard other than the one that God has actually given to us. And they ask for God, either demand or assume, that God would give a more definite standard than He has.

01:12:28

The fact is that the Lord allowed in His providence, you know, around 5 ,000, that's the commonly stated number.

01:12:36

You can read myths and mistakes of New Testament textual criticism for more specifics. But around 5 ,000 manuscripts of the

01:12:42

New Testament, most of which are just portions, very few of which are the entire New Testament, you know, that came down to us through history.

01:12:48

And all of them differ at least a little from the others, as long as they're of sufficient size.

01:12:54

And somebody has to sit down and figure out, okay, if this manuscript says that the wise men came and found baby

01:13:00

Jesus, and this one says that the wise men came and saw baby Jesus, and actually there are, you know, 1 ,000 that say this and 500 that say that, you know, whatever the numbers might be, somebody has to make a decision.

01:13:13

That is difficulty. And it's given rise to the field of New Testament textual criticism. The confessional bibliologists say that we can cut through all that difficulty and we don't have to dig deep into those details because the

01:13:26

Lord promised to preserve His word, Psalm 12, 6, and 7 is a passage that they'll use, or especially

01:13:32

Matthew 5, 18, Jesus said, not a jot or a tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

01:13:37

Well then, we must have, as Jesus says, every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And where would we find it?

01:13:44

Well, it must be in the translation that God has used above all others. That must be the

01:13:49

King James Verse. And so, in fact, the edition of the Greek New Testament that is used by confessional bibliologists and ISB King James only -ists alike was put together in 1881 and 1894 by a scholar named

01:14:04

F. H. A. Scribner who basically looked at the different Greek New Testament editions that were used by the

01:14:11

King James translators and reconstructed, based on what they wrote in their translation, reconstructed which

01:14:18

Greek New Testament editions they went with at which places. And if you look on my website, kjbparallelbible .org,

01:14:26

which is worth several hours of your time, anybody out there listening and interested in this topic, you can actually see, and on my

01:14:33

Which? TR page, I quote Scribner, who says that the

01:14:39

King James translators 111 times went with Beza's Greek New Testament over Stephano's.

01:14:46

59 times they did the opposite. And 67 times they went with yet other readings from different editions of the

01:14:53

Greek New Testament and also the Latin pulgate. So the King James translators did textual criticism and confessional bibliology and King James only -ism when they get to the academic level, frankly, where they can talk about this knowledgably and the confessional bibliology folks very typically do.

01:15:09

The IFB folks, not so much. I don't have this conversation with them. But they point to Scribner and say that we know which text is the pure and perfect one, the one that God has preserved, through the

01:15:20

King James version. It's complicated. It's difficult for me to summarize any more quickly than that.

01:15:26

And there's a whole lot more to say, but I hope that answers your question. Well, since there were 1 ,600 years before this version of the

01:15:38

Bible came into existence, why would they presume that this must be the very

01:15:46

Bible that is the Bible for the church to universally use?

01:15:52

I'm assuming also that unlike some within the King James only movement, they do not believe people who don't speak

01:16:00

English. They don't require that these people learn English and only use the

01:16:06

King James Bible, even in foreign countries outside of the English -speaking world. And there are people like that.

01:16:14

There are people who actually go as far as to say that you cannot be saved being evangelized by a modern version of the

01:16:22

Scriptures. But why is this? I mean, you could say that other

01:16:28

Bibles were used mightily of God. Why is this the one that they pick that has been used the most in their minds?

01:16:35

Yeah, I think there's kind of two questions in there. You're gently reminding me to answer the other part of your previous question, which is how does confessional bibliology differ from King James only, as in the

01:16:44

IFB variety. For one thing, it's a lot smaller. The IFB King James only is there all over the Internet and all over the country and the world.

01:16:52

But a big thing there, and I mentioned it a little bit earlier when I was trying to give the different tribes within King James only a different viewpoint, is that confessional bibliologists do tend to work harder to recognize that what they're trying to defend is the pure Hebrew and Greek text, not necessarily the

01:17:14

King James translation. Okay, so that's part of the answer to your question.

01:17:20

The other question you asked is what about other languages and what about the time before 1611?

01:17:27

It's a little fuzzy when it comes to the time before 1611. They would tend to say the

01:17:32

Textus Receptus is the standard, but I and my friends have been pressing the question on them, okay, which

01:17:38

Textus Receptus? There are multiple Texti Recepti. There wasn't just one. They do differ.

01:17:44

How do you determine which reading to go with when they differ? I feel, and I've actually got a video script I'm writing now on this, that the major representatives of the viewpoint of confessional bibliology have given different and conflicting answers to the questions which

01:17:57

TR and why. But in general, they would say as long as you're using a good

01:18:02

TR -based, Textus Receptus -based translation in whatever language, that's what they're going for.

01:18:08

And the most responsible proponents of the viewpoint, they're pretty consistent with that. So they'd be open to translations in other languages, very much so that use the

01:18:16

TR. And they're trying in some cases to produce them, like the Trinitarian Bible Society will be willing to go into a country where they already have a

01:18:22

Bible translation and provide them with a new one based on the Textus Receptus, which

01:18:28

I find to be regrettable mainly because it can cause division. But, you know, God's Word is so powerful, most of the people who don't know about the debate probably won't be affected.

01:18:38

They'll just be reading the Bible, and that's not so bad. Now, what inherently about the

01:18:44

Textus Receptus or the multiple versions of it, as you've just explained, obviously we've already said that we are not anti -King

01:18:55

James Bible, and obviously that would mean we're not anti -Textus Receptus. But there must be something inherently flawed to some degree about the versions of the

01:19:07

Textus Receptus where you have folks who are favoring modern translations that are not based on that.

01:19:17

So what inherently would you view as flaws in the versions of the

01:19:24

Textus Receptus? We have to go back to the question, what is the scope of evidence that we should be looking at when we are trying to determine what was the original text of the

01:19:36

New Testament? At those many, but almost always very minor places where the

01:19:43

Greek manuscripts of the New Testament differ, what should we include in our evidence pool?

01:19:50

And broadly speaking, the problem with Textus Receptus, is that Erasmus, when he first sat down in the early 1500s to put together what he then called the

01:20:02

Novum Instrumentum Omne, his main purpose was actually to make a revision of the

01:20:07

Vulgate, but he also happened to print the Greek New Testament for the first time. The manuscripts that he had available to him were few and late.

01:20:20

And contemporary textual critics, having now with the work of Dan Wallace and many others, now over the last century and a half or more really, especially going back to Tischendorf and Trigellus, we've discovered so much more evidence, and we feel there's no good reason to exclude the vast majority of that evidence from the pool.

01:20:42

And when you include more evidence, actually it brings greater clarity typically to these textual critical questions.

01:20:51

But the defenders of the Textus Receptus, the most recent answer I've gotten to that question from the most accredited and capable and courteous representative of the viewpoint, which would be

01:21:02

Jeff Riddle, he said, well, you should only use

01:21:08

Textus Receptus edition, and it has to be classic, mature Protestant edition. And the reason he had to give all those descriptors is that actually some of the key passages, especially 1

01:21:20

John 5 -7, that get defended by our Textus Receptus brethren typically, and our

01:21:26

King James Ilius brethren for sure, but are not in the critical text that most

01:21:32

Bibles use, like the NASV, the ESV. The 1 John 5 -7, the Three Heavenly Witnesses it's called, was not in Erasmus' original text, and that was a

01:21:41

TR. So when we've pressed a question on them, my friends and I, which TR, I'm afraid,

01:21:47

I hate to even say it this way, I don't like being opposed to my fellow believers in Christ, with whom I'll spend eternity, but we've had to back them into the corner to finally answer, well, okay, it's not all the

01:21:57

Textus Receptus editions that are okay, it's just the ones that are classic, mature, and Protestant, which basically means the ones that include the passages that they're always working to defend, which is 1

01:22:06

John 5 -7, John 7 -53 to 8 -11, which is the woman caught in adultery, per capita adultery, it's called in Latin, and the so -called longer ending of Mark, Mark 16, 9 -20.

01:22:17

That's where almost all of the discussions end up, and often where they start.

01:22:22

I hope that answers your question. There's so much complexity here. Well, those are very important issues, because that, as far as folks that I know, who are

01:22:33

King James -only -ist, they are startled, and I'm talking about folks that maybe have fairly recently adopted that view.

01:22:44

They're startled and shocked to be told that the more modern translations of the

01:22:54

Bible, who are actually, which are, I should say, actually using older manuscripts, so that people shouldn't be confused by the term modern translations when they are using older manuscripts, but they're shocked because they're being told, did you know that the translators of the

01:23:15

New American Standard Bible and the NIV and some other of these modern translations, they took verses out of the

01:23:23

Bible? Now, how do you respond to that specific charge? Because it seems to be, in my experience, the most prevalent issues that are brought up by frightened and shocked people who have come to recently embrace

01:23:37

King James -only -ism. Yeah, that's a powerful rhetorical tool, right?

01:23:42

And yet, it is fundamentally not just wrong, but I'm going to use a word that I really try not to use, that I'm really careful not to use, unless I'm certain.

01:23:54

It's dishonest, because it never acknowledges what

01:24:00

I know the great majority of King James -only leaders do know, that the debate is over the question whether these passages have been omitted, or were they in fact at some point added?

01:24:15

And both of them are problems, right? I mean, I don't want any words or verses from the New Testament or Old Testament omitted, but I also don't want any added.

01:24:24

And that is why I use a critical text Bible when I get to choose. I don't think the differences between the critical text and the text that's receptive are massively significant, so I could in good conscience use a new

01:24:36

King James version to preach out of, but of course, I want to have a text that's as close to the originals as possible, and by our best lights, because the

01:24:45

Lord has not given us extra special revelation to tell us which Bible, which edition of the

01:24:52

Greek New Testament to use, by our best lights, the text that's receptive includes portions of the

01:24:59

New Testament, words and verses here and there, and especially those three kind of bigger chunks that I've already mentioned, that were added.

01:25:06

And that too is a problem. I almost never hear, let's say I never hear the

01:25:12

King James Only -ist in the IFB world acknowledging that that's the debate.

01:25:17

In the confessional bibliology world, I do think they're more aware. Yeah, that's how

01:25:22

I would answer your question. So going back to one of the main reasons we're having this discussion is to compare and contrast

01:25:31

King James Only -ism with confessional bibliology Is it really that is the core difference, one is textus receptus only, and one is the

01:25:44

English translation only? If you go to the extremes of the

01:25:50

IFB King James Only world, then yes. I treat my brothers in the confessional bibliology world, who are my brothers,

01:25:58

Jeff Riddle and Christian McShaffrey and Daniel Hanson, and I'm just looking off the names of books that I've had some interactions with.

01:26:07

Again, I absolutely believe they are saved and we share a ton of precious belief.

01:26:12

All of those are Reformed brothers, it so happens. Of course, that's what confessional bibliology attracts,

01:26:18

Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians. They would, you know, Chris, I have now lost track of your question, could you say it one more time?

01:26:27

How they differ from the King James Only -ist? Yeah, the primary reasons, yeah. So, I take them at their word, that they're much more concerned about the textus receptus than they are about the

01:26:42

King James. But, I have to observe that the confessional bibliologists have given pretty much exactly the same response to my work on the readability of the

01:26:55

King James that the Independent Fundamental Baptist King James Only -ists have. And, I'm going to give two big similarities here, even after I've acknowledged the difference, okay, between confessional bibliology and, you know, more standard run -of -the -mill

01:27:08

King James Only -ism. One big similarity is that when I point out not just dead words in the

01:27:15

King James, words we know we don't know like bism and chambering and b -ray, b -e -w -r -a -y, you know, countless others, moraine, what have you.

01:27:27

But, I point out there are also false friends in the King James. Because of language change, there are words we don't know we don't know.

01:27:34

Like, how long halt ye between two opinions. I misunderstood that word halt for three decades of my life until I read a modern translation.

01:27:42

And, the problem was not the King James translators. They didn't do anything wrong. It's that language has changed and the word halt has a different set of senses.

01:27:51

I've done now 57 videos. Some of them were combined into one video, but 57 false friends on my

01:27:59

YouTube channel where I talk through these things. And, the universal response, almost universal, there are about two guys in the confessional bibliology world who have at least privately acknowledged to me that I'm on to something.

01:28:12

They simply deny that there are false friends. They say it's not a problem.

01:28:19

There are excessively few of them. They say you just need to study. Study to show thyself approved.

01:28:26

And, it just so happens, study is a false friend. It didn't mean in 1611 in that context. Hit the books.

01:28:31

It meant be diligent to. They have denied and over and over again, they have,

01:28:38

I'm so sad to say this, just avoided the case that I've made. That unites the two groups.

01:28:45

Another thing that unites them, I'll be quicker about this. When you ask them, okay, what is the standard?

01:28:52

Even though the King James only is in the IFB world, it tends to be less sophisticated and more fuzzy in their minds about, is it the

01:29:01

King James? Is it the TR? I kind of hear them say both things. Even though the confessional bibliologists are more responsible to articulate carefully that it's the

01:29:10

TR they're defending, when I ask the further question, which TR? The ultimate answer is, well, the

01:29:17

King James. Whatever textual critical decisions the King James translators made, we'll stick with that.

01:29:24

And, I say, brothers, and I said it in that article that James White got on your radar.

01:29:29

I said, brothers, how is that not just more King James only -ism? They've been telling me over and over again that they're not

01:29:35

King James only. They reject King James only -ism. But, almost all of them use the

01:29:42

King James. They're very nervous about, most of them, about even using the new King James, even though it's based on the same text, or the modern

01:29:49

English version, which is also based on the same Hebrew and Greek texts. And, when it comes right down to it, which

01:29:54

TR do they use? It's the King James. I came into it wanting to be as charitable and honest as possible.

01:30:02

I hope and pray before the Lord that I have been. But, I had to conclude when I wrote that paper, this is just King James only -ism in another form.

01:30:16

And, when it comes to, yes, I know, I can't escape that conclusion either. When it comes to the other

01:30:25

Bibles that have been used of God in history, like the

01:30:31

Geneva Bible, which apparently was the preference of the Puritans, and I understand that even many of the

01:30:37

Puritans, if not most or all of them, were very apprehensive or even opposed to the

01:30:44

King James Bible, if I'm not mistaken. But, they used the

01:30:49

Geneva Bible, and, of course, there was the Tyndale Bible. What texts were those

01:30:55

Bibles based on? And, do we have other examples of Bibles that existed either prior to or parallel with the

01:31:05

King James Bible in the English language that were based on either the

01:31:10

Textus Receptus, or one of them, and perhaps other texts?

01:31:18

Yeah, the confessional bibliologists would generally look favorably upon pre -King James English translations like the

01:31:24

Geneva Bible, the Coverdale Bible, certainly William Tyndale's Bible, the Great Bible, the Bishop's Bible. They don't actually get used much.

01:31:32

I think the Geneva Bible probably gets read by some folks in confessional bibliology, but certainly nobody preaches from it.

01:31:39

And all of those were based on the Textus Receptus, and so, in principle, they should be acceptable to the confessional bibliologists, and, in my experience, they definitely are.

01:31:48

They don't criticize those Bibles. What I don't see them recognizing, and something

01:31:53

I tried to make clear in my paper in various ways, especially one big fat footnote, is that God also used foreign language translations.

01:32:04

For example, the Dutch, I'm not going to pronounce this correctly, I don't think, but Staten Berteling, I think it was like 1637 that it came out, you know, it performed a very similar role to the

01:32:15

King James, but in Dutch culture, it used a different edition of the TR than the

01:32:20

King James translators did, and therefore you can actually go, and I did this, and I found places where it was quite clear that the

01:32:28

TR underlying the Dutch translation, the standard that God used there in that land for, you know, centuries, they went with a different reading in the

01:32:38

Greek manuscript tradition than did the King James at that place because they were using a different edition of the

01:32:45

Texas Receptus. And I've tried to ask, really, I'm sorry, some of my frustration comes out here,

01:32:52

I've asked until I've been blue in the face, which TR, which TR, which TR, because they're all saying, these brothers are saying, ultimately these very devices that the, you know, the

01:33:02

Greek New Testament has been preserved perfectly, and when they cite Matthew 5, 18, what else could it mean?

01:33:08

If Jesus is talking about preservation of the text at all, I actually don't think that he is. I think he's talking about the efficacy of God's words.

01:33:17

But if he's talking about preservation at all, then it has to be perfect, every jot and tittle. And yet, here's the

01:33:25

TR that God used in Holland. Why isn't that the standard? Why is it English?

01:33:32

Maybe I've forgotten, people have tried to answer this, but I can't even remember anyone ever addressing that question that I posed.

01:33:39

And in fact, the article that I wrote, now it's been out two years, has, to my knowledge, not been answered by an accredited person representing the confessional bibliology side.

01:33:51

There was one artist, an oil painter, a nice guy who did his best to answer, but he told me he can't read

01:33:59

Greek. So he still did a remarkable job and made some good points that were helpful, but the confessional bibliology leaders who actually can read

01:34:08

Greek and who have the requisite training to write an academic paperback, they have not answered these questions that I'm raising.

01:34:15

Okay, let's go to some of our listener questions that we have. Let's see here,

01:34:22

I had them right in front of me. Oh, here it is. We have one of our most faithful and loyal listeners,

01:34:28

Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina. Greetings, brothers. I have friends that attend an independent fundamentalist

01:34:34

Baptist church that even on the pulpit has large letters that say KJV.

01:34:40

I fear they are idolizing the translation instead of God. They speak to me about their church, but never the

01:34:48

Lord Jesus Christ. How do you reach someone like this when they act like you're a heretic because you don't attend a

01:34:58

KJV church? And since Grady's question is nearly identical to another listener,

01:35:06

Joseph in Gardner, Massachusetts, I'll read his too. How do you recommend approaching people who seem to almost worship the

01:35:13

KJV? Yeah, I think you have to start with charity and love for them.

01:35:20

You have to start viewing them as sheep who are caught in a trap.

01:35:26

And when you reach down to free them, they're going to nip at your arms. It may prove that some of these folks are actually wolves and not sheep at all.

01:35:36

And then, of course, you've got a different set of questions. But I always start by presuming

01:35:42

I'm dealing with a regenerated person. And then I take the further step. I'm dealing with somebody who, because he has

01:35:49

God's Spirit or she has God's Spirit, this person does want to understand what his

01:35:54

Master said. And Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

01:36:00

They won't follow the voice of another. So I build on that common ground.

01:36:06

You want to understand the Bible, don't you? I mean, that's the whole point of having a translation, right? And of course they'll say,

01:36:11

Well, I can understand the King James just fine. It takes a PhD to misunderstand it. I'm constantly hearing that from YouTube commentators on my

01:36:20

YouTube channel. And I try to be gracious. I try to be patient. And I try to ask them questions. I did this the other day.

01:36:27

I ran into a guy who doesn't go to church, who's dating an unsafe girl, who is into substance abuse and yet was loudly arguing with me, nicely but loudly, for King James -only -ism and telling me you couldn't really trust the watered -down modern version.

01:36:45

So where did I go? I went to presume that he does want to understand. And that's where I think my argument is.

01:36:54

I'm hoping that people will steal it and use it. And I know that they are. Praise God. My argument is 1

01:37:00

Corinthians 14 says edification requires intelligibility. You've got to use words people can understand or they're not going to be edified.

01:37:06

And through no fault of the King James translators and through no fault of modern readers, solely due to the fault of language change, there are many places in the

01:37:16

King James where contemporary readers can no longer understand. I always hear back to that.

01:37:22

Well, just don't be lazy. Use the dictionary. Study to show thyself approved. And that's when I bring in the false friends.

01:37:28

And I say, but brother, how are you supposed to look up words you don't even realize you're misunderstanding?

01:37:34

And that's why I've gone to great lengths. I've got a book coming out, Lord willing, next year, King James Words You Don't Know You Don't Know.

01:37:41

I wish it were already done. I miss my deadline. It's so busy. But I've got a bunch of it written, a bunch of the materials up on my

01:37:48

YouTube channel already. I would watch a bunch of my YouTube videos and then go back and see if you can get your

01:37:54

King James -only friend to talk about English readability, make that 1 Corinthians 14 argument with him, presume he wants to understand the

01:38:01

Bible, and then talk to him about dead words and false friends. Well, we're getting to our final break right now.

01:38:06

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. So if you have a question, send it in immediately to chrisorensen at gmail .com.

01:38:13

chrisorensen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend,

01:38:36

Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C. for the

01:38:42

G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

01:38:48

Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th. I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Darrell Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

01:39:00

Just Thinking Podcast. To register, visit g3min .org. That's g3min .org.

01:39:06

And click on Events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

01:39:14

So join me and Chris Orensen, September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.

01:39:20

to the G3 Ministries Regional Conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org.

01:39:27

That's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Orensen while you're there.

01:39:43

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,

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01:40:01

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray or all of the above.

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For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

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That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

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That's liyfc .org. Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225

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Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

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Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

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It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

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We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play and together.

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Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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Or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org. That's lynnbrookbaptist .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:41:47

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

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And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

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No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

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Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

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Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in Italy used for my

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French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

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Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

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For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding go to ptlbiblerebinding .com

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the

01:43:20

Shoals. Based in Alabama it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.

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Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants as well as radio stations theological seminaries and various programs for unreached people groups.

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With an aim to glorify God and reach the nations with the gospel it is a blessing to see how

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God has used Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally as well as locally.

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To find out more about this vital work worldwide visit anchoredintruth .org

01:44:11

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

01:44:21

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

01:44:31

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.

01:44:37

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism it is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

01:44:49

Dr. Moorcraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

01:45:00

For details on the eight -volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com

01:45:08

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

01:45:25

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Attention all men in ministry leadership you're all invited to my friend

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Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon Thursday, September 22nd 11 a .m.

01:45:55

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania featuring me,

01:46:00

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries your keynote speaker. Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the

01:46:15

United States and the United Kingdom personally selected by Chris Arnzen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader or any other man in ministry leadership please register for the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002 631 -291 -7002 or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com

01:46:47

ironsharpensironradio .com This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries hoping to see you

01:46:52

Thursday, September 22nd 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

01:47:25

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

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NASB I'm Dr. Joseph Piper President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

01:47:55

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York and the NASB is my Bible of choice

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I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia and the NASB is my

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Bible of choice I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Go to nasbible .com

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That's nasbible .com to place your order Iron Sharpens Iron Radio If you love

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society Their mission?

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To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written word of God They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of Biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

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Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org

01:50:58

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air Welcome back

01:51:06

We have a message or a question I should say from Gary in Southbridge, Massachusetts I have read that the

01:51:15

KJV wasn't allowed on the Mayflower because of its modernity at the time as compared to the more standardly approved ones like the

01:51:24

Geneva or Bishop's Bible Would you know if there is any veracity to this claim? Actually, it was the

01:51:32

New American Standard Bible that was brought over on the Mayflower It was their

01:51:41

Bible of choice No, actually, I'm sorry, I don't know this My friend, Tim Berg, kjbhistory .com

01:51:47

is my expert that I go to when I check in on the history of the King James and he'd be worth looking at on that question

01:51:55

Sorry Okay, we have Michael in Pittsburgh, California I didn't even know there was a Pittsburgh out there

01:52:02

Okay, he's quoting James White If I reject the standardizations of the past and in particular the acceptance and use of the

01:52:11

Latin Vulgate for more than a millennium in the West upon what basis am I to accept the standardization of the

01:52:19

Textus Receptus? And if I find great insight and learning in the Westminster Divines or the framers of the

01:52:25

London Baptist Confession upon what basis do I extend that respect beyond their work as theologians to any area they do not pretend to master?

01:52:35

And he says, James White the cancel culture of the Reformed Confessions via his attack on the

01:52:42

Textus Receptus I have MS 35, 9th to 13th and I don't see the corruptions

01:52:48

White alleges in the history of the TR I have Scriveners aren't we talking translations and not

01:52:56

Greek text White plays up translations to discredit the TR Boy, I'm a little confused there

01:53:05

I feel like that was two questions wrapped into one because the first part I was agreeing with the second part there are enough details and having a little

01:53:13

The first part was a quote by James White and then he Got it Then Michael from Pittsburgh, California says

01:53:21

James White in the cancel culture of the Reformed Confessions via his attack on the

01:53:27

TR and it's Michael who is saying I have MS 35 So it's all making sense now?

01:53:35

Yes I'm going to back off of getting into specific manuscripts

01:53:40

I don't want to answer a matter before I hear it Would that be a falling in shame to me as the

01:53:47

King James says Proverbs 19 I think it is maybe 18 and I can't speak intelligently to that specific thing

01:53:54

I admit I'm having a little trouble following even now that I know that the first part was a James White quotation the second part was him

01:54:01

I just can't quite follow the argument there A little spinoff of that I could say

01:54:06

I talk about translation rather than text because I think that really is the issue I think that my brothers in that world are sincere in wanting to make the

01:54:17

TR the issue but I have to call a spade a spade and say that when they pick a

01:54:23

TR it is the King James If Michael from Pittsburgh, California wants to contact me privately with that question help me understand what he's asking

01:54:32

He can use my contact format by faithweunderstand .com And Michael asks a lot of questions

01:54:38

I don't think I'll have time to ask all of them Also, this is still Michael from Pittsburgh Also, Dan Wallace says the

01:54:47

TR did not exist in the ninth and yet there are there's evidence that refutes this

01:54:57

Well, if you want to just pick up on that and he has so many things I would have to spend a whole show to address all of this

01:55:06

Well, this is actually I'm going to answer this question from a different angle First off, though I can look up answers to questions like this and we can have doom and authority

01:55:19

I'm not really authority in New Testament textual criticism I try to be a faithful and careful student of it but I haven't set myself up as somebody who teaches the discipline

01:55:30

My article, my academic article in the Detroit Journal focused on a pretty narrow question that I could actually handle

01:55:37

I tried not to bite off more than I could chew But let me answer from the broader perspective

01:55:42

It sounds like maybe Michael from Pittsburgh, California can read Greek Well, fantastic But the vast majority of people who have to make a decision about which

01:55:55

Bible translation they're going to use even pastors don't have the expertise in Greek and New Testament textual criticism to argue intelligently on that question

01:56:06

Yeah, that's apropos Basically, the Byzantine textual tradition as it's historically been called did it extend back that far?

01:56:16

Or is the critical text our critical text proponents generally right to say that the Byzantine is a later text form?

01:56:23

Well, there are really smart people on both sides I was just looking at Maurice Robinson's Byzantine text form of the

01:56:30

New Testament and the man is utterly brilliant He's absolutely smarter than I am That's the way this argument tends to go

01:56:38

And how many of us Could it really be that the Lord expects of all of us to learn enough

01:56:45

Greek to be able to duel back and forth on this issue? I think it's much easier to say

01:56:53

Any of you that ends up insisting that you must use a 400 -year -old Bible translation that contains words you don't know when there are modern equivalents that you do know like bism instead of broom and when it further contains words that you don't even realize you're misunderstanding because of language change

01:57:12

How could that be right? Let's talk about what the Bible says clearly 1 Corinthians 14 edification requires intelligibility rather than getting wrapped up unless you're a specialist and you can do that in a controversy that is so inaccessible to so many people and to which the

01:57:30

Bible does not speak clearly The Lord does not tell us where to look or how to look for the right text of the

01:57:36

New Testament or of the Hebrew Bible Well, you know, I want to have you back if you are willing to return

01:57:42

I think that we could use another program to more adequately address this theme and I will try to squeeze in some more of Michael's questions

01:57:54

Michael from Pittsburgh, California I want you to have a minute now to summarize what you most want to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

01:58:04

Sure Do not argue about textual criticism with King James only of any stripe especially if you cannot read

01:58:15

Greek or they cannot read Greek and I'm not trying to insult anyone when I say that Let's stick to what the

01:58:22

Bible actually talks about which is that we ought to use edifying and intelligible language in church and indeed that the two are connected you can't edify without using languages people understand

01:58:33

We've got to shift this whole sad debate that shouldn't have to happen at all

01:58:38

We've got to shift it as much as humanly possible to the readability of the

01:58:44

King James Version Refuse to talk about textual criticism and just say to people Hey, the

01:58:49

New King James and the Modern English Version use the same Hebrew and Greek text that underlie the King James So I urge you and encourage you to follow 1

01:58:57

Corinthians 14 and pick up those versions and stop dividing the church over something the

01:59:03

Bible does not teach insisting on a 400 -year -old Bible translation And please give us your websites all of them that are related to your work

01:59:12

The most important place to go is my YouTube channel just search for Mark Ward King James Version and ignore all the attack videos at least at first listen to me first maybe and then you can go to my website byfaithreunderstand .com

01:59:25

It's not as active YouTube is really where I'm at I'm the editor of Bible Study Magazine I'd love people to subscribe to Bible Study Magazine Those are the best places to go for my work

01:59:34

Thank you very much and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater