WWUTT 570 Q&A Preacher's Kids Justified New Apostolics?

At what point do you confront a pastor because his child isn't a Christian? How do you explain the doctrine of justification by faith? And how do we witness to somebody who's wrapped up in new apostolic teaching?

The answers to these questions, when we understand the text.

You're listening to When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast to encourage your time in the Word. Find transcripts to our videos when you visit www .wutt .com. Now here's your host, Pastor Gade.

Thank you, Becky.

You're welcome.

How do you like my hair?

It's lovely. It's lovely.

This is when I'm grateful that we do this as a podcast and not as like a video thing.

Yes. I definitely agree with that at the moment.

We're recording this on the night of Thanksgiving. So Thanksgiving night, not Thanksgiving Eve.

No.

But Thanksgiving night.

Right.

I didn't eat anything all day.

Nope.

I was sick all day.

Yep.

So.

And we're saving our feast for another day when you can eat with us.

Which will probably be Saturday at this pace.

Yep.

So.

That's what I had figured up.

Yeah.

Oh, the illness.

It went through everybody. I think we talked about that last week. Didn't we say all the kids had had it?

Well, not all the kids, right? I came down with it.

Oh, yeah.

That's right. We had one more that was coming down with it because we made the joke about how we're having another one. But that didn't mean another baby. We were having another baby that was getting sick.

Right.

Right.

But we thought that was Annie.

Oh, was that right?

That was Annie that we were thinking that was going to have a problem.

When did she finally get sick?

She got sick before.

It was Friday or Saturday.

No, it was Friday night.

Friday night?

Anyway.

Yeah.

Anyway.

It was when Raya had it Saturday night.

It's now to the point where when you have four kids, you know.

Yeah, you know, it all kind of blurs together after a week.

Throw up is throw up. It doesn't matter who's producing it.

So.

Oh, let's not.

It is Friday when we take questions from the listeners and you can submit your question to when we understand the text at gmail .com. I'm pretty sure the questions I have today mostly deal with things we've been talking about recently.

Preacher's Kids, Church Discipline, and Elder Qualifications

This first one comes from Lisa in Tennessee.

And she.

She's the closest to getting your name right. She got. But she got two K's in there.

That's OK.

It's all right, Lisa. I'm just giving you a hard time. Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky. I'm sick, so be gracious to me.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for the what videos and podcast. I especially enjoy listening to the Friday Q &A. A friend and I have a few follow up questions to response. You gave recently that a pastor would be disqualified because his 16 year old daughter was a professing.

Homosexual.

That was the question we responded to last week.

Right.

This pastor would be disqualified because he would not have control over his child, nor would his child be a believer. So then she she presents some following scenarios. What if the person asking you this question had used a different scenario, such as a six year old that continually lies, a 10 year old that is a bully, a 14 year old that has been caught shoplifting, an 18 year old that has decided to no longer attend church, a 21 year old that has married an unbeliever, etc.

At what point or age in a child's life is the determination made that the elder is disqualified because the child is not a believer? My friend heard an elder question one time if he would be disqualified because his five year old was not saved.

How do we reconcile the calling of God on someone's life to be a pastor with the sovereignty of God in salvation, knowing that God has not elected everyone to be saved? Thank you again for your valuable ministry.

I look forward to understanding the qualifications of a pastor elder more clearly. And I know that your answers will be of great help. I really like this question because it's the way you ask questions.

Yes, it is.

Becky does a good job of thinking of the scenarios that I don't often think of when I'm just giving the text answer, you know. So let's go through a few of these scenarios here. What if the pastor has a six year old that continually lies?

Would that disqualify him as pastor? Well, he's six. So I think the question really has to do with what are the parents doing about this.

And how are they correcting, reprimanding?

Right.

And there can be like there can be a response on the part of the pastor or his wife that can be kind of aloof. And that's that's reason to have to press and say, well, what are you doing? I mean, if the pastor is coming back, we're saying, oh, he's fine.

You know, no big deal. But I mean, it is a big deal because it's sin. All sin is a big deal. So how are the parents handling the discipline of that child? Do you see discipline happening? And not to say that I mean, the pastor needs to make some sort of spectacle about disciplining their children.

Oh, yeah.

No, but not.

But have you ever seen the pastor or his wife reprimand their child, you know, in a loving way?

Not even taking them into the other room to have a good chat.

Yeah.

Even if it's not around everybody else to see. So so some of those kinds of hints. How how is the pastor? How is his family responding to this? The fact that the child is lying is not a reason for the pastor to be disqualified.

I was this kid. Yeah, this was me when I was six.

So your poor parents.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And through diligent and continuous disciplined, my discipline, my tendency to lie got shaped into it. You know, I use that creativity and more constructive ways rather than lying and, you know, breaking the commandment not to bear false witness.

Like forensics and debate.

That's right.

Yeah.

So I was an actor, an actor through high school and college. That was what got me through Juco. At least I never owed a dime to anybody because I was an actor over the course of those two and a half years.

I squeezed two and a half years of college into two or no way. I squeezed two years of college into two and a half.

That's what it is.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, dear.

OK, so the next scenario, a 10 year old that is a bully. Now, that one's a little bit more serious. Yes, because then you are entering into circumstances in which a family would say, we're not coming to church anymore because the pastor's child is bullying our child.

Right.

But what's being done about it? Again, the question has to be asked, what's being done about it?

Right.

I don't think that this is necessarily indicative of a larger problem with discipline in the pastor's home. Ten is still pretty young, but it is one of those situations that does need to be dealt with.

And other people need to be involved. So it's not just a matter of the pastor saying, hey, look, we're taking care of this problem at home. But how are those who have witnessed this bullying also involved in making sure the pastor understands exactly what happened?

This isn't hearsay. It's not rumor.

Now, the pastor's family, I mean, everybody's sinners, so they do not have to be the perfect people. They are not going to be the perfect people.

Absolutely.

You have to give them grace, too.

Yeah.

So it's, you know, you can't be like, oh, you're not, you know, upstanding in every way, shape and form. You know, I mean, you're going to have to help them just like you would help anybody else. And they would help you.

You have to think of church as being a family.

Yes.

And it takes a community to raise a child. It takes a village to raise a child.

Oh, my goodness.

Yes.

I would be lost without our village.

I am opposed to the approach that, hey, this is a private matter and it's none of your business. I think that the church should be involved in some way. I mean, there can be there can be a line that can be crossed.

But it's still a thing of, hey, look, we're taking care of this.

Problem.

I don't want anybody poking their noses into it. Well, I would have a problem if that's the pastor's response.

Right.

So how are you? You utilizing your friends and your resources and and advice givers, older members of the church who have been through this with their kids, people who are experienced in it. You know, this is this is the kind of way that the older can mentor the younger.

And that includes pastors.

It does.

It's not like the pastor is above reproach or help. And we have certainly received that help as parents in our.

Church.

Oh, yes. I have asked many eyes if they catch my children misbehaving with their pastor, welcome to correct them and then let me know.

Yes. Yeah.

We had a young lady who was teaching one of our kids in a Sunday school class and one of our kids was misbehave misbehaving in her class. And she let it go on for a little while, I think, before she came to us and said, I just felt bad about coming to the pastor and saying your child's misbehaving.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Right.

We told her, no, we want to know that. We do want to know that. So don't I'm sure that may have even been wrapped up in some past experience, may have had a pastor that was a little bit more controlling.

Good.

So anyway, the pastor needs to be approachable. That's part of the qualifications of a pastor is being hospitable. Is is he kind? Is he friendly? Is does he have a reputation of of being correctable and growing in holiness and sanctification?

These are part of the qualifications for a minister. So anyway, that all ties in with correcting a child a little bit older, 10 years old, acting like a bully.

Right.

Doing that to other kids. And in any of these scenarios that have been presented here, all of this is case by case basis.

Right.

Because most definitely even the scenarios can be kind of.

General.

So what are what are the more specifics of the like?

Are the parents reacting at all?

Yeah.

I mean, or are they like, oh, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to take away your toys whenever you get home or your your video games or whatever and ground you. And then they never do anything.

Right.

I mean, it's it's all about the whole from the beginning to the end of the discipline.

Disciplinary process.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's what's being done? So and I don't think it is it is too beyond a pastor to have to say, here's what we're doing to discipline this.

Child.

Right.

And there may be, depending on the scenario, there may be a necessity in in him having to be able to assure his friends and other families within the church. It's not like it's a thing where it comes before the whole congregation or even comes before the membership.

But those who have been, you know, you know, you've been involved in witnessing the child doing this. And then the pastor sitting down with those families that may have been affected by a child who was being a bully.

Right.

And saying, look, here's what we're doing to try to correct.

It.

Have any of you parents ever dealt with this before? Do you have any advice?

Right.

As to as to how we can improve on the situation or improve what we're doing in the situation. So then the next scenario was a 14 year old that has been caught shoplifting. Is it is it rumor or were they really picked up by the cops?

I mean, if you're a 14 year old, you're probably going to think, well, if they were picked up by police, I would venture to guess. I mean, still, depending on the scenario. But this is an influence of the crowd that they're hanging out with.

True.

And so they're hanging out with friends that they shouldn't be around. And that's that's the influence on their life. Shoplifting. If this becomes known to the community, like some cops picked up the pastor's kid at Walmart because he was shoplifting something.

There may need to be a reason there for the pastor to say, look, I've I am a pastor. I'm bringing reproach upon this church and I need to step away and handle some of these things and be more diligent about focusing on my teenager who is now in trouble with breaking the law.

Right.

And has that on their rap sheet.

Right.

And so I need to handle those things. And so I I would hope that the pastor would have that kind of heart that would be willing to step forward and say, I've got some things I need to take care of without without bringing reproach on the church.

And then it will be known, even in the community, that that was the pastor's response to that. And it it brings a good reputation.

Yeah. Right.

Brings a good reputation back on the church. But if you've got a pastor that is reluctant or just kind of shrugs it off like, you know, this isn't.

Really that big a deal.

Because kids will be kids.

Right.

You know, it's it is a tragedy that we is that word I want. It's sad that we have a euphemism called a PK, the preacher's kid.

Yeah.

And it's expected that he's supposed to act like a hellion. Well, that goes right. That goes exactly.

You're not supposed to tattle on them.

Right.

Yeah.

That's that's the way preachers kids are. And that goes right against First Timothy three and Titus chapter one in that the pastor needs to keep his house in order. His children submissive. His kids are supposed to be believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.

And so that's part of the qualification for pastors. And when we do the whole interview process of hiring a new pastor, oftentimes it goes as far as wanting to know what his theology is and what he sounds like when he preaches.

Right.

That's kind of the extent of the interview. Are you interviewing that pastor's family?

Right.

Before you bring them bring him on and hire him on as the head pastor of your church. What is what do you know about his wife? What do you know about their home life and the way that he's raising his kids?

I think looking into those things is every bit as important as listening to what he sounds like in a sermon.

Oh, yeah.

So anyway, I mean, he does have to have the ability to teach, but he must also keep his his family in order. Because if he cannot be the head of his own household, then how is he going to be able to guide and disciple Christ Church if he can't disciple his own kids?

Yeah.

And especially whenever it calls you away, like in the middle of the night or all day or right now, because there have been times that you've gone to the hospital that you've been there all day and I've been left with the kids.

And if I had an unruly household. Oh, my goodness. That would be awful.

Does the family deal with the responsibilities that the pastor has? How do they how do they deal with those things? Which I am. I'm very grateful in my position in the sense that my wife knew that I was going to be a pastor before I did.

So anytime some of these things happen that kind of disrupt our usual flow, I can just tell her, babe, it was your idea.

So you never do that.

No, I've never said that.

So then the next the next scenario is an 18 year old that has decided to no longer attend church. My question would be, is that 18 year old still living at home or have they graduated high school and they're now off at college?

If they're not in the home anymore, they're really you really can't use that against the pastor. Right now, if it was a pattern prior to them leaving home that kind of led to this and you're kind of feeling like he could have done more with his kids so that his son or daughter now away at college would be attending church when they're not now.

And because he wasn't preparing them for that, now we have this situation where their child is not at church. I guess you can kind of deal with that as you as it comes. I don't really even know what the immediate response should be to that.

Well, if that's how you feel, definitely get more than just your own feelings involved in that. Like go to the elders and see what they're saying.

Most churches aren't.

True.

In a Baptist church, you have the deacon board, you know.

Well, what I'm trying to discourage is the gossip.

Yeah.

Is don't just gossip around and be like, oh, well, he could have done.

More.

And then it explodes because gossip always just explodes to this extraordinary.

Yeah.

I mean, it could have been he tripped and fell on the knee. And the next thing you know, the one that gets to the actual person's ear is I heard your leg exploded on a landmine. I mean, you know, it's just.

Typewriter.

Yeah.

So it's just kind of.

Or telephone. I guess that's what that name was.

Called.

Telephone typewriter was the spelling game we played.

Sure.

Or I heard that one.

Anyway, the teacher would give a.

Word.

I don't know.

Well,.

Everybody had to go. And then the person that missed the letter was out anyway.

So.

So that's now, again, if it's if it's a child that's living at home, they're still under the rules of the household. They have to do what the parents.

Say.

And and if if it's a child that is not living at home anymore, realize that mom and dad are probably grieving themselves.

Right.

If their child isn't going to church, they're not excited about that. And they're probably not approaching this with an attitude of, you know, they're just experiencing college and getting used to things.

And they're probably mourning in their hearts that their child is an attending church. So definitely. In that case, I mean, that's a situation where you can approach the family and be able to support them and lift them up and pray with them that their their child might find some good mentors and accountability while they're at school, that somebody would actually go to their door and pound on it and get them up out of bed and say, hey, we're going to.

Church.

Be proactive. See if you know anybody in that.

Town.

Exactly.

I mean, it's a small world. And you may know somebody.

That's what was done for me when.

I was in college.

Yes, it was.

I just. I even was determined that when I went to college, I wasn't going to go to church anymore. That even was my attitude. I don't need to go.

You're terrible.

You know, I'll go to Campus Crusade for Christ or something.

Like that.

You know, whatever on campus ministry. But I don't need to go.

To church.

And I had some friends. In fact, there was one guy was an assemblies of God pastor. All of the churches that I attended while I was in college were charismatic. But they were the ones that reached out to me.

So I had a guy who was assemblies of God minister. And he really would come pound on my door and say, hey, come on,.

We're going to church.

And in the last scenario, a twenty one year old that has married an unbeliever. Again, that's a situation where you mourn over it. You pray. But that doesn't disqualify the pastor for the position that he.

Has.

And then and then lastly, Lisa.

Asks, because they're out of the.

House.

Yeah, they're they're not at home.

Anymore.

At what point age in a child's life is the determination made that that the elder is disqualified because the child is not a believer. Well, listen again to the instruction in Titus one verse.

Six.

If anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. So that that's kind of defining what it means for his children to be believers.

They're not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination in the way that they live their lives. Do they look like believers? Are they producing fruit? Would you say that they by the words that they say from their mouths and and the actions that they show to other people?

Do they display Christlike behavior? Do they look like Christians, regardless of whether or not you can know that their heart truly has been transformed to love.

Christ?

You know, the scenario earlier of like a six year old that continually lies. Oh, well, she goes on to say that my friend heard an elder question one time if he would be disqualified because his five year old child was not saved.

Well, I remember hearing Justin Peters say that the language that we have in scripture is very adult when it comes to being a follower of Christ. So if anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow after me.

Right.

That's not like something you tell a child.

Right.

And that's that's really more adult language. But in Baptist churches, especially in Presbyterian, too, because they're baptized as infants. But the there's a mentality of a child need to be baptized at five, six, seven years old.

And that's the mark of their salvation. And so and so, therefore, if a child hasn't been baptized yet or made that sort of confession of faith and they aren't saved and five years old, young. Now, I, I committed my life to Christ when I was four and I remember it distinctly.

But it was time that became the proof that I really was a Christian, not the fact that I said the prayer when I was four years old or said any prayer. I went into my bedroom and I got down on my knees and I looked up at the light because I didn't know where else to look.

And I just said, Lord, whatever you're going to do with me, do.

It to me.

And I didn't know what sin was. I really didn't have much of a concept of repentance at that.

Age.

But over time, it was evident that that confession of faith was genuine because I continued to grow in it. That process of sanctification gave evidence of the fruit of the spirit that was in my life. So are you seeing that kind of fruit in your child?

It's not a matter of have they have they been confessional? Have they said a prayer? Have they been baptized? But they're actually showing a fruit of the spirit. And then continue to talk to.

Your child.

Our nine-year-old. Of our four kids, our nine-year-old is the closest to making some sort of profession of faith. But she has not outright said to me yet, I love Jesus and I want.

To be baptized.

And I'm letting her be the one to say that to me without me having to put the words in her.

Mouth.

So none of my kids are baptized. And I think that there needs to be an evidence of maturity there that they understand what it is that they're confessing and what they're doing when they're.

Baptized.

And I've baptized young kids as a pastor, kids that were younger than 10, in other words. But in talking with them and in talking with their parents, I could tell that they knew what it was that they were confessing.

They understood the gospel. They could articulate to me the gospel. And they understood. I am a sinner and Jesus Christ has.

Saved me.

And so when we as a church family were able to witness that in their lives, their parents could testify to it. And I could hear it from the child's own mouth. And I would say, I don't see a reason why this child shouldn't.

Be baptized.

Like five years old is too young. I haven't baptized any five-year.

Olds.

But anyway, so I would not expect a five-year-old to show an evidence that an adult should.

Be showing.

Most definitely.

Of their salvation. They should definitely have.

Well, they're not even given the opportunities to make those kind of decisions as far as like, are you going to live a life of sin or are you going to, you know.

What I mean?

Right.

What child feels like their life is in danger because they're a.

Christian?

Yes.

You know? So when adults have that understanding of I'm giving up everything to follow Christ, then there is an evidence of faith in their lives when they understand what they have to give up all of themselves.

But a child doesn't understand that kind of selflessness.

Right.

So anyway.

They're not there yet.

No. In life.

I mean, they shouldn't be anyway.

So these answers were a little all over the place, Lisa, but I hope that they were certainly beneficial to you and kind of helping to, these are the kinds of things that Becky and I talk.

About.

So whenever we'll have these kinds of questions and then I'll respond to them or I'll say something in one of the Bible lessons during the week and then she'll come to me later and say, okay, when you said this, would this mean this?

Or how would we handle it in this way?

So expand on that.

Please.

She asked questions just like.

You.

That's why I appreciated the.

Question.

All right. This next one also lengthy, lengthy in the question, but I think we can shorten the answer.

A little bit.

This is from Richard and he is studying abroad. He said, Pastor Hughes, I am writing to you for advice on how to clearly communicate the doctrine of justification and free will. I am studying abroad and found a wonderful church started by a missionary.