WWUTT 570 Q&A Preacher's Kids Justified New Apostolics?

At what point do you confront a pastor because his child isn't a Christian? How do you explain the doctrine of justification by faith?

And how do we witness to somebody who's wrapped up in new apostolic teaching? The answers to these questions when we understand the text.

You're listening to When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast to encourage your time in the

Word. Find transcripts to our videos when you visit www .tt .com.

Now here's your host, Pastor Gade. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. How do you like my hair? It's lovely.

It's lovely. This is when I'm grateful that we do this as a podcast and not as like a video thing.

Yes, I definitely agree with that. We're recording this on the night of Thanksgiving.

So Thanksgiving night, not Thanksgiving Eve. No. But Thanksgiving night. Right. I didn't eat anything all day.

Nope. I was sick all day. Yep. So. And we're saving our feast for another day when you can eat.

That's right, which will probably be Saturday at this pace. Yep. So that's what I had figured up. Oh, the illness.

It went through everybody. I think we talked about that last week. Didn't we say all the kids had had it? Yep. Well, not all the kids, right?

I came down with it. Oh, yeah, that's right. We had one more that was coming down with it because we made the joke about how we're having another one.

But that didn't mean another baby. We were having another baby that was getting sick. Right. Right. But we thought that was Annie. Oh, was that right?

That was Annie that we were thinking that was going to have a problem. When did she finally get sick? She got sick before.

It was Friday or Saturday. It was Friday night. Friday night.

Anyway. Yeah. Anyway, Raya had it Saturday night. It's now to the point where when you have four kids, you know, it all kind of blurs together after a week.

Throw up is throw up. It doesn't matter who's producing it. So let's not. It is

Friday when we take questions from the listeners. And you can submit your question to when we understand the text at Gmail dot com.

I'm pretty sure the questions I have today mostly deal with things we've been talking about recently. This first one comes from Lisa in Tennessee.

And she's the closest to getting your name right. She got but she got two

K's in there. It happens. That's OK. It's all right, Lisa. I'm just giving you a hard time.

Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky. I'm sick. So be gracious to me. Thank you. Thank you for the what videos and podcast.

I especially enjoy listening to the Friday Q &A. A friend and I have a few follow up questions to response you gave recently that a pastor would be disqualified because his 16 year old daughter was a professing homosexual.

That was the question we responded to last week, right? This pastor would be disqualified because he would not have control over his child, nor would his child be a believer.

So then she she presents some following scenarios. What if the person asking you this question had used a different scenario, such as a six year old that continually lies, a 10 year old that is a bully, a 14 year old that has been caught shoplifting, an 18 year old that has decided to no longer attend church, a 21 year old that has married an unbeliever, et cetera.

At what point or age in a child's life is the determination made that the elder is disqualified because the child is not a believer?

My friend heard an elder question one time if he would be disqualified because his five year old was not saved.

How do we reconcile the calling of God on someone's life to be a pastor with the sovereignty of God in salvation, knowing that God has not elected everyone to be saved?

Thank you again for your valuable ministry. I look forward to understanding the qualifications of a pastor elder more clearly, and I know that your answers will be of great help.

I really like this question because it's the way you ask questions. Yes, it is. So Becky does a good job of thinking of the scenarios that I don't often think of when when

I'm just giving the text answer, you know. So let's go through a few of these scenarios here. What if the pastor has a six year old that continually lies?

Would that disqualify him as pastor? Well, he's six. So I think the question really has to do with what are the parents doing about this child?

How are they correcting, reprimanding? Right. And there can be like there can be a response on the part of the pastor or his wife that can be kind of aloof.

And that's that's reason to have to press and say, well, what are you doing?

I mean, if the pastor is coming back, we're saying, oh, he's fine. You know, no big deal. But I mean, it is a big deal because it's sin.

All sin is a big deal. So how are the parents handling the discipline of that child?

Do you see discipline happening? And not to say that, I mean, the pastor needs to make some sort of spectacle about disciplining their children.

Oh, yeah. But have you ever seen the pastor or his wife reprimand their child, you know, in a loving way, not even taking them into the other room to have a good chat?

Yeah. Even if it's not around everybody else to see. So so some of those kinds of hints, how how is the pastor?

How is his family responding to this? The fact that the child is lying is not a reason for the pastor to be disqualified.

I was this kid. This was me when I was six. So your poor parents.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And through diligent and continuous disciplined, my discipline, my tendency to lie got shaped into, you know,

I use that creativity and more constructive ways rather than lying and, you know, breaking the commandment not to bear false witness.

Like forensics and debate. That's right. Yeah. So I was an actor, an actor through high school and college.

That was what got me through Juco, at least. Never owed a dime to anybody because I was an actor over the course of those two and a half years.

I squeezed two and a half years of college into two or no, wait, I squeezed two years of college into two and a half. That's what it is.

Oh, yeah. Oh, dear. OK, so the next scenario, a 10 year old that is a bully.

Now, that one's a little bit more serious. Yes. Because then you are entering into circumstances in which a family would say we're not coming to church anymore because the pastor's child is bullying our child.

Right. But what's being done about it? Again, the question has to be asked, what's being done about it? Right. I don't think that this is necessarily indicative of a larger problem with discipline in the pastor's home.

Ten is still pretty young, but it is one of those situations that does need to be dealt with and other people need to be involved.

So it's not just a matter of the pastor saying, hey, look, we're taking care of this problem at home. But how are those who have witnessed this bullying also involved in making sure the pastor understands exactly what happened?

This isn't hearsay. It's not rumor. Now, the pastor's family, I mean, everybody's sinners, so they do not have to be the perfect people.

They are not going to be the perfect people. Absolutely. You have to give them grace, too. Yeah. So you can't be like, oh, you're not upstanding in every way, shape and form.

You're going to have to help them just like you would help anybody else and they would help you. You have to think of church as being a family.

Yes. And it takes a community to raise a child. A village. Takes a village to raise a child. Oh, my goodness, yes.

I would be lost without our village. I am opposed to the approach that, hey, this is a private matter and it's none of your business.

I think that the church should be involved in some way. I mean, there can be a line that can be crossed, but it's still a thing of, hey, look, we're taking care of this problem.

I don't want anybody poking their noses into it. Well, I would have a problem if that's the pastor's response. Right. So how are you utilizing your friends and your resources and advice givers, older members of the church who have been through this with their kids, people who are experienced in it?

You know, this is the kind of way that the older can mentor the younger. And that includes pastors.

It does. It's not like the pastor is above reproach or help. And we have certainly received that help as parents in our church.

Oh, yes. I have asked many eyes if they catch my children misbehaving that they are welcome to correct them and then let me know.

Yes, yeah. We had a young lady who was teaching one of our kids in a Sunday school class, and one of our kids was misbehaving in her class.

And she let it go on for a little while, I think, before she came to us and said, I just felt bad about coming to the pastor and saying your child's misbehaving.

Oh, no. No, no, no, no. Right. We told her, no, we want to know that. We do want to know that.

So don't. I'm sure that may have even been wrapped up in some past experience, may have had a pastor that was a little bit more controlling.

Good. So anyway, the pastor needs to be approachable. That's part of the qualifications of a pastor is being hospitable.

Is he kind? Is he friendly? Does he have a reputation of being correctable and growing in holiness and sanctification?

These are part of the qualifications for a minister. So anyway, that all ties in with correcting a child a little bit older, 10 years old, acting like a bully.

Right. Doing that to other kids. And in any of these scenarios that have been presented here, all of this is case by case basis.

Right. Because even the scenarios can be kind of general. So what are what are the more specifics of the like?

Are the parents reacting at all? Yeah. I mean, or are they like, oh, I'm going to, you know,

I'm going to take away your toys whenever you get home or your your video games or whatever and ground you.

And then they never do anything. Right. I mean, it's it's all about the whole from the beginning to the end of the the discipline disciplinary process.

Yeah. Yeah. What's what's being done? So and I don't think it is it is too beyond a pastor to have to say, here's what we're doing to discipline this child.

Right. And there may be, depending on the scenario, there may be a necessity in in him having to be able to assure his friends and other families within the church.

It's not like it's a thing where it comes before the whole congregation or even comes before the membership. But those who have been involved in witnessing the child doing this and then the pastor sitting down with those families that may have been affected by a child who was being a bully.

Right. And saying, look, here's what we're doing to try to correct it. Have any of you parents ever dealt with this before?

Do you have any advice? Right. As to as to how we can improve on the situation or improve what we're doing in the situation.

So then the next scenario was a 14 year old that has been caught shoplifting. Is it is it rumor or were they really picked up by the cops?

I mean, if they were picked up by police, I would venture to guess.

I mean, still, depending on the scenario. But this is an influence of the crowd that they're hanging out with.

True. And so they're hanging out with friends that they shouldn't be around. And that's that's the influence on their life.

Shoplifting. If this becomes known to the community, like some cops picked up the pastor's kid at Walmart because he was shoplifting something, there may need to be a reason there for the pastor to say, look,

I've I am bringing reproach upon this church and I need to step away and handle some of these things and be more diligent about focusing on my teenager who is now in trouble with breaking the law.

Right. And has that on their rap sheet. Right. And so I need to handle those things. And so I I would hope that the pastor would have that kind of heart that would be willing to step forward and say,

I've got some things I need to take care of without without bringing reproach on the church. And then it will be known even in the community that that was the pastor's response to that.

And it it brings a good reputation. Right. Brings a good reputation back on the church. But if you've got a pastor that is reluctant or just kind of shrugs it off like, you know, this isn't really that big a deal.

Kids will be kids. Kids will be kids. Right. You know, it's it is a tragedy that we is that word

I want. It's sad that we have a euphemism called a PK, the preacher's kid.

And it's expected that he's supposed to act like a hellion. Well, that goes right. That goes exactly.

You're not supposed to tell it alone. Right. Yeah, that's that's the way preacher's kids are. And that goes right against First Timothy three and Titus chapter one in that the pastor needs to keep his house in order.

His children submissive. His kids are supposed to be believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.

And so that's part of the qualification for pastors. And when we do the whole interview process of hiring a new pastor, oftentimes it goes as far as wanting to know what his theology is and what he sounds like when he preaches.

Right. That's kind of the extent of the interview. Are you interviewing that pastor's family? Right. Before you bring them bring him on and hire him on as the head pastor of your church?

What is what do you know about his wife? What do you know about their home life and the way that he's raising his kids? I think looking into those things is every bit as important as listening to what he sounds like in a sermon.

Oh, yeah. So anyway, I mean, he does have to have the ability to teach, but he must also keep his family in order because if he cannot be the head of his own household, then how is he going to be able to guide and disciple

Christ Church if he can't disciple his own kids? Yeah. And especially whenever it calls you away, like in the middle of the night or all day or right now, because there have been times that you've gone to the hospital that you've been there all day.

And I've been left with the kids. And if I had an unruly household, oh, my goodness, that would be awful.

Does the family deal with the responsibilities that the pastor has? How do they how do they deal with those things?

Which I am I'm very grateful in my position in the sense that my wife knew that I was going to be a pastor before I did.

So anytime some of these things happen that kind of disrupt our usual flow,

I can just tell her, babe, it was your idea. You never do that. No, I've never said that.

So then the next the next scenario is an 18 year old that has decided to no longer attend church.

My question would be, is that 18 year old still living at home or have they graduated high school and they're now off at college?

If they're not in the home anymore, they're really you really can't use that against the pastor.

Right. Now, if it was a pattern prior to them leaving home that kind of led to this and you're kind of feeling like I think the pastor could have done more with his kids so that his son or daughter now away at college would be attending church when they're not now.

And because he wasn't preparing them for that, now we have this situation where their child is not at church. I guess you can kind of deal with that as you as it comes.

I don't really even know what the immediate response should be to that. Well, if that's how you feel, definitely get more than just your own feelings involved in that, like go to the elders and see what they think.

Yeah, right. And I mean, take your concern. Well, that's that's given that it's a plurality eldership. True. Most churches aren't so true in a

Baptist church. You have a deacon board, you know. Well, what I'm trying to discourage is the gossip. Yeah.

Is don't just gossip around and be like, oh, well, he could have done more. And then it explodes because gossip always just explodes to this extraordinary.

Yeah. I mean, it could have been he tripped and fell on the knee. The next thing you know, the one that gets to the actual person's ear is

I heard your leg exploded on a landmine. I mean, you know, it's just typewriter. Yeah.

So it's just kind of or telephone. I guess that's what that game was called. Telephone. Typewriter was the spelling game we played.

Sure. Or I heard that one. Anyway, the teacher would give a word. I don't know. Why the phone? Well, we'll go to everybody had to go.

And then the person that missed the letter was out anyway. So so that's now again, if it's if it's a child that's living at home, they're still under the rules of the household.

They have to do what the parents say. And and if if it's a child that is not living at home anymore, realize that mom and dad are probably grieving themselves, right?

If their child isn't going to church, they're not excited about that. And they're probably not approaching this with an attitude of, you know, they're just experiencing college and getting used to things.

They're probably mourning in their hearts that their child isn't attending church. So definitely in that case,

I mean, that's a situation where you can approach the family and be able to support them and lift them up and pray with them that their their child might find some good mentors and accountability while they're at school that somebody would actually go to their door and pound on it and get them up out of bed and say, hey, we're going to church and be proactive.

See if you know anybody in that town. Exactly. I mean, it's a small world and you may know somebody. That's what was done for me when

I was in college. Yes, it was. I just I even was determined that when I went to college, I wasn't going to go to church anymore. That even was my attitude.

It's like, I don't need to go. You're terrible. You know, I'll go to Campus Crusade for Christ or something like that, you know, whatever on campus ministry.

But I don't need to go to church. And I had some friends. In fact, there was one guy was an Assemblies of God pastor.

All of the churches that I attended while I was in college were charismatic, but but they were the ones that reached out to me.

So I had a guy who was Assemblies of God minister. And he really would come pound on my door and say, hey, come on, we're going to church.

And then the last scenario, a 21 year old that has married an unbeliever. Again, that's a situation where you mourn over it.

You pray, but that doesn't disqualify the pastor for the position that he has. And then and then lastly,

Lisa asks because they're out of the house. Yeah, they're they're not at home anymore. At what point age in a child's life is the determination made that that the elder is disqualified because the child is not a believer?

Well, listen again to the instruction in Titus one, verse six. If anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.

So that that's kind of defining what it means for his children to be believers. They're not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination in the way that they live their lives.

Do they look like believers? Are they producing fruit? Would you say that they by the words that they say from their mouths and and the actions that they show to other people?

Do they display Christ like behavior? Do they look like Christians, regardless of whether or not you can know that their heart truly has been transformed to love

Christ? You know, the scenario earlier of like a six year old that continually lies.

Oh, well, she goes on to say that my friend heard an elder question one time if he would be disqualified because his five year old child was not saved.

Well, I remember hearing Justin Peters say that the language that we have in scripture is very adult when it comes to being a follower of Christ.

So if anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow after me. Right. That's not like something you tell a child.

Right. That's that's really more adult language. But in Baptist churches, especially and in Presbyterian, too, because they're baptized as infants.

But the there's a mentality of a child needing to be baptized at five, six, seven years old.

And that's the mark of their salvation. And so and so, therefore, if a child hasn't been baptized yet or made that sort of confession of faith and they aren't saved and five years old, young now,

I, I committed my life to Christ when I was four and I remember it distinctly.

But it was time that became the proof that I really was a Christian, not the fact that I said the prayer when

I was four years old or said any prayer. I went into my bedroom and I got down on my knees and I looked up at the light because I didn't know where else to look.

And I just said, Lord, whatever you're going to do with me, do it to me. And I didn't know what sin was.

I really didn't have much of a concept of repentance at that age. But over time, it was evident that that confession of faith was genuine because I continued to grow in it.

That process of sanctification gave evidence of the fruit of the spirit that was in my life. So are you seeing that kind of fruit in your child?

It's not a matter of have they have they been confessional? Have they said a prayer? Have they been baptized?

But they're actually showing a fruit of the spirit and then continue to talk to your child. Our nine -year -old of our four kids, our nine -year -old is the closest to making some sort of profession of faith.

But she has not outright said to me yet, I love Jesus and I want to be baptized. And I'm letting her be the one to say that to me without me having to put the words in her mouth.

So none of my kids are baptized. And I think that there needs to be an evidence of maturity there that they understand what it is that they're confessing and what they're doing when they're baptized.

And I've baptized young kids as a pastor, kids that were younger than 10, in other words.

But in talking with them and in talking with their parents, I could tell that they knew what it was that they were confessing.

They understood the gospel. They could articulate to me the gospel. Right. And they understood I am a sinner and Jesus Christ has saved me.

And so when we as a church family were able to witness that in their lives, their parents could testify to it.

And I could I could hear from the child's own mouth. And I would say, I don't see a reason why this child shouldn't be baptized.

Like five years old is too young. I haven't baptized any five year olds. But the but anyway, so I would not expect a five year old to show an evidence that an adult should be showing most of their salvation.

They should definitely have. Well, they're not even given the opportunities to make those kind of decisions as far as are you going to live a life of sin or are you going to let you know what a child feels like their life is in danger because they're a

Christian, you know. So when adults have that understanding of I'm giving up everything to follow Christ, then there is an evidence of faith in their lives when they understand what they have to give up all of themselves.

But but a child doesn't understand that kind of selflessness. Right. So so anyway, they're not they're not there yet in life.

I mean, they shouldn't be anyway. So these these answers were a little all over the place, Lisa, but I hope that they were certainly beneficial to you and kind of helping to these are the kinds of things that Becky and I talk about.

So whenever we will have these kinds of of questions and then I'll respond to them or I'll say something on one of the

Bible lessons during the week and then she'll come to me later and say, OK, when you said this, would this mean this or how would we handle it in this way?

So expand on that, please. She asked questions just like you. That's why I appreciated the question.

All right. This next one, also lengthy, lengthy in the question, but I think we can shorten the answer a little bit.

This is from Richard and he is studying abroad. He said, Pastor Hughes, I am writing to you for advice on how to clearly communicate the doctrine of justification and free will.

I am studying abroad and found a wonderful church started by a missionary.

Recently, it has become more apparent to me through the sermons and conversations that they fully believe in man's free will to believe in Christ every time that I tell them justification is by grace alone.

They agree with me. They affirm justification by grace alone through faith alone and strongly believe that works do not contribute to justification.

However, they believe that believing is itself not a work. They believe everyone is accountable for their own sin and that man must choose to believe in God.

They said once a person hears the gospel, then he has been offered the free gift of Jesus Christ and it is up to them to choose to follow

Christ. Therefore, those who choose to believe in Christ did so of their own free will because believing is not a work.

Ephesians 2 ought to point out that nothing a man does contributes to justification, but their defense is that a man cannot be justified without believing and believing is their own doing.

I fully believe in man's depravity, Romans 3 and 8, that we have a will but are enslaved to sin and would never choose

God if it was up to us. Even in light of these scriptures, their beliefs have become more muddled as I talk to them.

They believe that the KJV is the most correct translation of the Bible and all other translations are incorrect if only for the fact that the end of Mark was annotated,

Revelation 22 19, so I cannot use the NASB, ESV, etc. to back up my point.

They are also very big into soul winning and constantly pressure evangelism as the most important form of obedience.

They have said that they find more success in converting a person by walking with them face to face than by open air preaching, and that is further testament that when a person hears the gospel, he has free will to choose to believe.

They appeal to extremes, often by saying that election would mean everyone is a robot and that God sends people to hell.

This is despite my trying to explain to them what I actually believe. They say often that if my beliefs are so complicated and that if I have a doctrine for everything, then it isn't the true gospel because the gospel is simple.

I am at a loss as to how I could communicate the wonderful Protestant doctrines of this church and would love your help to this church.

I will continue to pray, hoping that scripture in the spirit would move in their hearts, and if not now, then someday. God bless you and your ministry.

So basically, the root of the question is how do I clearly communicate the doctrine of justification?

Well, very simply, you just appeal to the scriptures. And like you said, I believe in what is said in Romans 3 and Romans 8 by our depravity.

If we were left up to ourselves, we would not be able to choose God, but it is God who has intervened and given us a will that would choose him by the regeneration of the

Holy Spirit. Whenever you have these kinds of discussions and conversations about that, that's what you need to appeal to is the scripture.

So when it comes to understanding justification, I think the clearest passage that we have on this is

Romans 3, starting in verse 21. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it.

The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe, for there is no distinction for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom

God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith. This was to show

God's righteousness because in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just in the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The one who is credited over and over again whenever we talk about justification is God. He is the one that gets the glory and he gets the credit for the salvation of a person.

Other passages that you can refer to include John 6, 29. When the people asked

Jesus, what must we do to be doing the works of God? And Jesus answered them, this is the work of God that you believe in him whom he has sent.

So God is the one who even specifically gives belief to a person. That's not that's not a work that a person does.

It is a work that God does. So where they said that they don't believe that belief is a work. Well, it is a work.

It's the work of God. So you just need to find the passages that would help them to understand that the, you know,

Hebrews 11 or yeah, Hebrews 11, one faith is the assurance of things hoped for the conviction of things not seen.

Hebrews 12, one and two, where Jesus is described as the author, excuse me, the author and the perfecter of our faith.

So he gave us our faith and he is growing us in that faith as well. And so none of this is to our glory.

It's not to our credit. But when they say, you know, in these discussions that you have, when they're saying things like that, everybody is given a choice to believe the gospel.

I don't think that's wrong. It's just when you get to the didactic, which is like the overarching plan of God from before the foundation of the world.

How does all of this play out when it comes to understanding the theology of it, when it comes to understanding it in terms of the narrative, you heard the gospel and you responded and you were given an opportunity to choose to follow

Jesus Christ, repent of your sin and follow him. That as far as your experience is concerned, that's what happened to you.

But then when you study the theology of it, when you come to your scripture to see how these things happen, like when you're answering the question of how does salvation even take place?

Well, I heard the gospel and I listened to it. Really? So then immediately you were saved just because you were in one state of mind, one second and another state of mind the other second.

Where did that belief come from? Well, it came from the gospel. It came from hearing the gospel and responding to it.

Where did the gospel come from? Well, it came from Christ, you know, on and on it goes as when you go back in the sequence, it's ultimately all going to come back to God.

So in the narrative, like as far as we experience life, you heard the gospel and you chose to believe it.

I'm not going to take that away from you. That's true. But in the theology, God is the one that purposed it.

He's the one that made it happen. He purposed it from before the foundation of the world. Revelation 13, eight, those whose names were written down in the

Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world didn't worship the beast. But those whose names were not written in that book from the foundation of the world did follow after the beast.

So there are passages that you can find, and that's basically how you're going to help a person come to an understanding of this is using the scriptures, not necessarily trying to argue with logic and reason, because how can we as finite creatures possibly fathom the infinite that you how can you fathom your salvation that was decreed by God before the foundation of the world?

And then and then they, you know, the whole robot argument. Well, that basically is that's almost a deism argument that God kind of set everything in motion and just let it go.

And then everything is going to be as it is because God planned it. Well, he gets to determine the ends and he gets to determine the means to those end those ends.

So God made the decree before the foundation of the world. And now he is working in mankind now to bring about what he had established before time began.

Right. So and I kind of wonder how little they think God is, because, I mean, it is all about him.

Yeah, well, it's trying it's trying to take credit for a work that belongs exclusively to God. Yeah. And this isn't and they just to add on to that, but they probably already have you as if have a filter for you.

I don't know how to word that because we talk about the filter a lot. Right, right. But to explain that to somebody who hasn't talked to me before, like, whenever I tell

Gabe something and he's trying to figure out what I really mean, like,

I'll tell him, OK, I need you to go to the store and get milk. Well, he's figuring out, OK, we need milk and eggs and bread.

And, you know, like there's a filter that he's trying to add to what I'm saying. Right. So they're probably doing the same thing, but not with.

They're used to hearing you say this. And so it's kind of like they're writing off. Oh, yeah, but he's the. And so that's where they're coming up with the things that you don't believe that they think that you believe without you saying it.

And it takes it takes time. It takes time and it takes patience. And this is very, very common among King James only churches.

And that's that's what Richard was indicating there about that church. So just be patient.

Yeah. Patient and give him grace and just say, OK, well, here I can show you, you know, like Gabe was saying, take him to the scriptures because they can't argue with the scriptures.

Right now, we all have faults in our theology. Every single person does. There are faults in my theology.

So I want to know where I'm at fault and corrected. Nobody's theology is perfect.

So even in a person who is Arminian in their in their soteriology.

So they believe that they believe in synergism, that salvation is a shared work between God and man.

Now, even though you have said here that your friends say no justification is by grace alone through faith alone, they might say that, but but their soteriology is not consistent because they're saying that salvation was

God offered it and then I received it. And so we kind of met each other halfway. So the argument that they're making is synergistic, even if they don't use that language.

Those aren't the words that they use. And so, again, the the way that you help them to understand this is by is by coming back to the scriptures.

If a person has made a confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, they know that it is by his death on the cross and his resurrection from the grave that they have been saved by faith in the finished work of Christ.

Then I mean, your brothers and sisters in the Lord, there's not a reason there to have to be divisive where there's not a reason to be divisive.

Well, here's here's one thing that you can help them understand. So one of the things that Richard said here was, if my beliefs are so complicated that if I have to have a doctrine for everything, then it isn't the true gospel because the gospel is simple.

Well, this is I kind of talked about this earlier this week when I said that you'll have some of these churches that will say no creed, but Christ or no confession, but Jesus or something like that.

And that's very arrogant because it's a church that's trying to say, hey, we're above all of this whole doctrine and confession thing, this whole creed.

We don't need any of that. None of that's even in the Bible. All we need is the Bible. Well, OK, when you say that, you've also welcomed

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and one is Pentecostals who deny the Trinity. They're also welcome in your church.

Are they believers? No, I mean, anybody who is solid in their in their understanding of right doctrine will say no

Mormons believe in a completely different Jesus. Ah, OK, see, now you're getting confessional right now.

You're starting to appeal to creeds. So it's not just enough for you to say, I believe in Jesus, and that's good enough.

Which Jesus are we talking about? Right. The Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible. OK, sure. But a

Mormon will say the same thing. So how do you define this Christ, according to what the scripture says? So creeds and confessions, what they do is they summarize biblical doctrine.

And it is a group of believers saying, here's what we believe the Bible says about the

Bible or about God or about Jesus or about man's sinfulness or about the crucifixion and the resurrection or how a person gets saved.

So any any any time that you talk about, though, an understanding of those issues and those topics, you're talking doctrine.

And furthermore, you're talking doctrine that has a name on it. Somebody has already thought this through.

Oh, yeah. And has already summarized these things in a particular creed or confession. So there is no such thing as any church that's going, oh, you know, we just we just adhere to the

Bible without creed or confession. You have creed or confession, even if you haven't written it down. So when you start saying that, oh, we don't believe the same

Jesus as the Mormons, now you're waxing confessional. So that's one way that you can help them understand.

The creeds that I believe in the confessions that I hold to, it's not because they were devised by any man.

It is because a group of believers over the course of Orthodox Christian history have come together and said, here's what we believe about what the

Bible says. That's where the Nicene Creed came from. That's where the 1689 London Baptist Confession comes from.

That's where the Westminster West Westminster Catechism, shorter or longer, comes from.

It's because believers have summarized what is stated in the Bible. And I don't think those confession confessions should be done alone either.

So it's not one person that comes up with these things. It's a body of believers saying, here's what we believe about God, about Christ.

And when we came up with our statement of beliefs as a church, that's what we did. It was as a church. And it wasn't even as like, hey, we're going to start from scratch.

Let's come up with a confession for our church, a we believe section. Right. We went to the London Baptist Confession and the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000 and some of those things. And that was how we came up with the confessions that we have as a church.

So they were very much guided by the Orthodox teaching of the church over the last 2000 years.

That's not something that you do by yourself. So even in this same way, the way that you are having these conversations with your friends at this church, you're going to be helping each other grow and understand these things.

It takes patience. God is the one who grants repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. That's second

Timothy two twenty five. And it might be another verse that's helpful for you. But that's that's what you pray for, that God would give them a spirit to open their eyes and see what he has declared in his word.

And hopefully what they see will also be that the King James Bible is not the only and best

English translation of the Bible. All right. Last question here. And I didn't even grab this person's name.

So I don't know who this is anyway. Hey, Pastor Gabe. First off, thanks for all that you and Becky do through what the

YouTube channel and podcast have been have greatly benefited my walk with God. I work with equipping worship guitarists while also countering some of the evangelical nonsense that I come across and encouraging them to read some dead guys who still have some great things to say.

I knew, for instance, that the likes of Bethel Church were out in left field. But in the nearly three years since I've started this business,

I've come to realize just how prevalent the New Apostolic Reformation and their related heresies are.

How would you suggest that I steer conversations with musicians typically even less read than the rest of American Christians who are involved in the

NAR and don't recognize how dangerous that teaching is? Thanks again, SDG.

Again, like with my answer to Richard, this is going to require you to have a familiarity with the scriptures and using the scriptures to help them understand.

And if they're not bringing up something specifically that you can respond to, like, you know, if you if you say

Bill Johnson's a heretic, they're not going to know how to handle that issue. They're going to think of you as a person who is, oh, you're one of those legalistic pharisaical types.

And that's that's what they're going to hear from you when you say Bill Johnson's a heretic. It's not like you're going to say that to somebody and they're going to go, oh, wow,

I didn't have any idea. Right. I didn't know. So you're going to have to. They have already painted you.

Yeah, precisely. They're going to dismiss pretty much you're going to lose them in anything else that you're going to say. Oh, yes. So you have to take this topic by topic.

So what are the things that are being said by these individuals when they when they bring up the string of beliefs that they believe if they've been influenced by new apostolic reformation, which they probably don't even know what that is?

No, they don't know what the NAR is, which is now the INC, by the way, it's not even called the NAR anymore.

They wanted to get away from. Yeah, OK. It stands for Independent Network Charismatic.

OK, I think I'm pretty sure that's what it is. So they wanted to get away from the C. Peter Wagner label.

He was the one that came up with new apostolic reformation and he died. I can't remember if it was last year or the year before.

But so now. Interesting. Anyway, they're defining themselves. They're calling themselves the INC. So these guys probably they don't have any idea what those terms mean.

They've never heard that before, probably don't even understand what heresy is, except it's a red flag issue.

Whenever you're saying something that is of Christ is heretical, like, OK, you're one of those fuddy duddies. Yeah, you know, you don't you're not actually friends with the church and then you're going to lose them.

So topic by topic. I remember a guitarist one time in a band. We were at a youth camp, which that's always a haven of all kinds of great doctrine most of the time.

Anyway, I'm being sarcastic there. But there was a guitarist in the band that was playing for that youth camp that I was at, and he had on his pedal board the

Love Wins sticker from Rob Bell. And so I already knew where his soteriology was at, but I was able to just strike up a conversation with,

OK, so Love Wins, where is that from? And I know where it's from, but I want to know if he knows where it's from, because because like I said, these guys don't know what new apostolic reformation is.

And so then he says, oh, yeah, it's Rob Bell's book. And I thought it was a great book. And knowing something about the book and some of the things that Bell said about hell in that book,

I was able to say, OK, so when Rob Bell brings up hell and he presents this universalism sort of salvation in the book that everybody goes to heaven, rhyming.

Sorry. Yeah. Bell and hell. Hell's bells. That's a little disappointing. Sorry. I saw a blog one time that was titling the whole conundrum with Rob Bell.

They titled it Bell's Hells instead of Hell's Bells. Yeah. Anyway, that was

I thought that was creative. But so. OK, sorry. Didn't mean to derail you. But Jesus is the one who spoke most about hell of any other figure in scripture.

In fact, he talked about hell more than he even talked about heaven. So I was able to kind of get a conversation rolling with this individual that way.

But anything that I responded with came from scripture. I was a lot younger at that time.

I wasn't I wasn't very fluent, but as best as I could, I made sure that they understood this is what the

Bible says and what Bell is trying to articulate doesn't even come from scripture. So so like I remember one thing he said was, well, well, you know, hell is just kind of this concept that came from Dante and and whatever.

You know, he gave kind of like a faux historical recall of where the whole concept of hell came from.

And so I responded to him. Where did you get that from? And he just asking him that he was stunned.

I'm like, see, somebody told you that. But what have you actually done to research what

Jesus said about hell and whether it is actually a biblical concept or whether you're choosing to hear from somebody else that Dante was the one that came up with hell?

Now, I mean, Dante did come up with stuff about hell that's not in the Bible, but it's not a

Dante Dante concept making up my own word there. It is it is biblical.

Jesus talked about hell, and it is a real place, according to Matthew 25, where those who did not believe in Christ are going to be sent for all eternity and in revelation that they will be cast into the lake of fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, because they showed in life to be followers of Satan rather than followers of Christ.

Lazarus and the rich man. The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. So anyway, you know, come at these come at these sorts of topics and issues biblically, and it's it's going to be topic by topic.

So whatever sort of an issue comes up, just make sure that you're equipped in the scriptures. You know what it is that the

NAR believes and teaches and how to respond to those particular matters, some of the the bigger heresies that they're into.

Justin Peters, I've mentioned already once in this broadcast, but he is a great resource to refer to.

I would encourage you to check out his DVD entitled Clouds Without Water, too. So that's it.

That's our program for today. Thank you. Any other closing comments you want to add?

Because, like I said, sometimes you think of the things that I don't think of. Nope, I'm Plum out. OK, sorry.

Well, I started this podcast ill and Becky is ending this podcast plum tired.

So that's that's where we're going to wrap up. It has been a very long week.

It has. Pray for us still that health would would come would would come back to the

Hughes home. Yeah, and we would once again have just energy to get through our day.

All right. Let's pray. Yes. Lord, we thank you for our time together and our time to be able to spend in your word and understand what is said by the scriptures, according to what you have said about these topics and issues that we talk about, not what we want the

Bible to say or what we think it says, but what you have said and using scripture to interpret scripture.

We know that the Bible is divinely inspired, that it was given by the Holy Spirit of God working through men who wrote down exactly what you wanted them to say.

Every word of scripture is God breathed and is useful for us in training and righteousness as we grow in sanctification, being shaped more and more like our

Savior Christ. I pray for these three individuals who had submitted these questions today that you would properly equip them, according to your word, with how to respond to these situations that they encounter in their church or in their respective ministries.

Lord, I also pray for health in our family that we would be back on the upswing. But we give you praise and glory and honor in all things, knowing that you're working all things for our good, for those who love

God and are called according to his purpose. And in these things we pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

All right, go ahead. You're listening to When We Understand the

Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast to encourage your time in the word. Find transcripts to our videos when you visit www .tt

.com. Now here's your host, Pastor Gabe. Hey, that was pretty good. I should come in there.

You should have. That would have been awesome. But my mic is really far from me. Is it? I don't want to adjust it because it always falls away.

I mean, it falls down, falls apart. Always falls away. It falls away. It's like a wayward believer.

It is. Hey, are you ready this time? I don't know. Maybe I need to take a nap first.

Poor baby. I'm so sorry. You can, Colin's sick.

I'm not going to go anywhere tomorrow. No, I mean like for the podcast. Thanks for tuning in.

I'm really ill. I sit here and talk. I mean, what? No, you didn't. You sat here.

You didn't talk. There's a problem. That's true. I did say that. Are you ready?