Does Christian Nationalism help society? Debate Response

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply It's not only to that statements would be either true or false

So is it true that I'm talking to you? Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you.

Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist? Well, I mean how babies exist

Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true? I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you won't be very strict about it,

I would be skeptical about okay We're done talking We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions about God and the

Bible We're here to teach and to illustrate to instruct on how to do apologetics so if you have any difficult questions or any questions at all, in fact, you can go to apologetics live .com

and You can just scroll down to the stream yard. That's the duck icon. Click on that join the discussion if you're on YouTube That's usually

I think YouTube and X will allow us to see your comments so you can put stuff there if you're there

We'll be able to see your comments, which would be so nice and we will get those questions as well and so tonight we're going to be talking about a

Debate that happened on someone else's channel and the debate was titled does

Christian nationalism help society? It was by dead man walking my friend

Greg Moore Well, we'll see if he admits that we're friends, but you know, I call him a friend. But hey,

I Live in fantasy land But he had a debate and With a guy

Tim Whitaker and Kenning Kenton, and I don't remember Kenton's last name but he's here so he could tell us and It was a very interesting debate.

The link is in the show notes Even if you look on the video, so I encourage people to look at the video before so you have you know

What we're talking about so if we don't get all the links to play in but We're gonna try to go through and discuss that because I think there's a lot to learn

It was really I should have titled this Christian nationalism debate with a progressive

Christian Some of you remember when we had the other progressive Christian that came in Anthony.

Well, we have another progressive Christian I don't know if he's gonna come in Tim Tim Whitaker The weird thing with both of these young guys is both of them were in two different churches that I was part of I Don't know what it is that the churches.

I've been part of go you get some guy that goes progressive I don't know. It's probably my fault Greg will blame me. Let me bring in my co -host here.

Mr A .m. Brewster one of the speakers at striving for eternity, sir Welcome.

Oh, I see you got you got your new book there. Look at I don't have the cool technology that you have

So I'm just holding it Yeah, you gotta hold it there the whole time. Why don't we the whole time quit?

You know, you got to quit quit smoking quit drinking quit cussing Now this book is actually quit how to stop family strife for good

I'm gonna interrupt for a second just for timing sake because I want this just popped in Tim Whitaker says

Andrew, are you gonna tell people I went to your church? I Andrew blamed himself

It's a yeah, it's a it's the book I just wrote called quit how to stop family strife for good and it's it's all about really

Stopping the strife, but it's actually it's actually a facade. It's a don't tell everyone this

I don't say this on every interview show So if you people are listening to it here you get the inside scoop Really what this is is it does appeal to people who have a lot of family strife a lot of family conflict but the only way to really be able to deal with any sins and any big issues in the family is to Release their discipleship.

It's through your family coming to know the Lord and growing in him and that's really what this book is about and then specifically focuses in on the elements of Strife so we talked about the consequences of strife the creators the causes and then eventually we talked about the cure for strife

But I'm not gonna hold it here the whole time and it doesn't look as Hey calculus man says a very seeker sensitive title

Where can folks get that Well, you can go to ever my ministries calm And you can see links there if you are on the ever mind app you can get it in there as a digital version

That's exclusively on the ever mind app how but you can also order it on Amazon Just go to Amazon and put in quit and then my name am

Brewster Aaron Brewster or put in how to stop family strife quit And family strife it'll all come up there in Amazon and you can order

Ever mind ministries because there you get more money than Amazon Let me bring maybe maybe not.

I don't even know how that works anymore. Let me bring in Greg Moore from dead man walking, sir

How are you? So folks don't know Greg Moore if you don't listen to dead man walking

I'll just say that I don't think You need to be following and listening to every episode of dead man walking to get to heaven, but why take the chance

Just saying Hey, I want to bring

I'm gonna bring a very secret sensitive. Yeah So what we usually do is we start with an in the news section before we get into the main topic and I'm going to I brought

Greg in because I want to I want to in the news section here I'm gonna string these long. He's a politician. So that'll be good too with some of these

Public servant, okay, so And and these are all gonna tie together into I think what will be the theme for tonight a bit so first I wanted to talk about if you guys hadn't seen there was a a national prayer that they do after a president is

You know, basically after they have the induction for a new president so that it's kind of a national prayer for the person who just became president and what you had was a woman who

Decided to take that opportunity Where it was supposed to be being respectful regardless of I mean

I don't care if that was Biden and someone did that I would still say it was very disrespectful what? she did in in taking the time that it's supposed to be a

Honoring of the person who is in the office to then just try to you know, rip them apart But she took that she took that opportunity

Which maybe many of you have seen that clip, but that's not the clip I actually want to talk about the clip.

I want to talk about is what the clip where she explained why she did it She said that the reason she called him out in church is

Because his presence there he was making a political statement and she was not going to stand

For someone making a political statement in the church Now I'm making a political statement.

Okay. Thank you very much. So She's the one that made the political statement. He was there because he was just Installed this president and it was kind of like his responsibility to be there.

But that's how that works That's how that works my like the three of us white dudes, right? I mean cuz you're you're

Jewish So obviously you're a white dude, too so the three of us white guys are very presence is triggering our very presence is racist and the people who want us

I Am NOT white It's very close to my skin though But then the people who would hate on us the people who would yell and scream at us because our very presence is racist

They're they're not like that's that is how it actually works. That's right

This is called projecting and I'm saying this because we're gonna see a theme here What she's doing is projecting on to Donald Trump, which she actually did right

And like I said, I don't care who's there if if the if it is a national prayer breakfast for the president

You show respect to the office and the person the the second one is

You know is gonna be a similar thing I don't know really really really quick Andrew. Can I just interject about how about respect honor and glory to Christ the

King? to God Almighty and Yes political ideology instead of using it as a soapbox

Actually being humbled before a holy God in prayer Well see and that's where I could agree with her argument to say when she's saying well

We you know, the church is not the place to be making political statements. I might be able to agree with that to an extent

You know, but if that's what you believe then you shouldn't do it Right, right because she like he sat there.

He didn't buy she's claiming by him sitting there. He's making political statements She's projecting her behavior on to him

And then we have we had some pardons. I don't know if you you heard about these pardons that were Literally and I predicted this

I was telling people watch Monday morning. We're gonna see pardons. What I didn't expect is that he actually was doing pardons while Trump was speaking

So that they were just last minute He had no time he didn't know about it by the time that he got up to do his his speeches.

So What are you talking about Biden last -minute part. I didn't last -minute pardoning his family and and others know

What was the reason he gave for pardoning now? It's interesting if we go back in time There was all kinds of people were saying that Trump was gonna pardon his children his family because they were so guilty

He came out and said I'm not planning to pardon. I am they didn't do anything wrong. I don't pardon a person that's innocent and so Joe Biden pardoned a whole bunch of people

Proactively he said because he wanted to do that because he assumes Trump is gonna attack these people and go after them and and do it

So he gave a part by the way pardons are purpose. The purpose of pardon is you have to actually be guilty there's only one pardon that we have in history before January 20th where you can make the argument that the

Pardon was for someone that wasn't charged as being guilty and that would be Nixon and even then for there was debate over that and Ford actually is his the reason he pardoned

Nixon was he said that Nixon's public statements were an admission of guilt and therefore he could use that to pardon

Right really quickly. The whole point is whether guilty or innocent There has to be some act that we're weighing the pardon on and this pardon is saying

Oh Proactively pardoned without any evidence one way or another I find it pretty atrocious

I mean Could you imagine having that get out of jail free card to your hunter Biden or one of these or Jill or anyone?

No matter what you do. You got a presidential pardon. That's not how pardon works. It's in the it's in the definition of the word and Guilt like he pardoned them and in so doing he is admitting that they did all the things that we've been saying they did

Yeah, well he's he's saying to protect them but here's the thing he's when it was

When it was Donald Trump in office, they said oh he's gonna do this. It's that's illegal you can't do it and Biden even said my administration would never do such a thing and Now he does it now.

Here's the interesting thing. What's the reason he's doing it and and there's there's a point to all this He's projecting on to Donald Trump what he actually did to Donald Trump Right in with all these investigations things like that because we do know that the four cases

You know It's public record to see who goes in and out of the White House all for the prosecutors

Or all for the cases the day before that prosecution occurred against Donald Trump.

They were visiting with Joe Biden. So so he projects on to them what he actually does and The point is with that is to notice these departments go back 10 years,

I mean before Donald Trump was in office I Mean, I'm surprised he didn't pardon every single person that worked at the

White House Let's not forget This was an administration where coke balloons and cocaine were found in the

White House Where there were two men having anal sex on the Capitol floor and recorded it and it got leaked

I mean the list goes on and on of the things that happened at this White House under Joe Biden and whoever was running the country for the last four years

But if you want to see a fun video really quickly go to real DMW podcast on my ex account and there's a six -minute mashup

Of everyone from MSNBC and and CNN saying in the late Trump presidency

Oh my gosh Why would you pardon anyone if you're if you're not guilty and then at the end of it? Of course, it shows the pardon of the entire

Biden family. Yeah So, what do you have you have a case where there's projection you you you put you put on to the other person

What you're gonna do, right? So you say oh, I'm doing this That person's gonna do that.

But what you're actually doing is The very thing you're accusing the other person of so I bring that together and I know he's backstage, but I'm gonna

I'm gonna say With a debate we're gonna talk about you got to see Tim Whitaker do the exact same thing

He projects upon Kennington. He's like he's cracking up back there He he does the exact same thing he accuses

Kennington of what he actually does So now that he's back there, we'll have a lot of fun discussing that.

Let me bring in Kenton Kenna what's your last name? You'd have to unmute yourself though that usually

Yeah, Kenton little Kenton little. Yeah. All right, so you're not big my name matches my stature quite accurately

Okay, well you look taller 5 '6 Okay Well Brewster is a

Brewster. So yeah, he's he's just like, you know with five five different black belts and Tim Whitaker sir, welcome

Hello Andrew spent and what 15 20 years. Yeah, so so So I was so we talked about the projecting so I bring you in I'm gonna read

The exchange I want to read a text exchange I had this morning with Greg because well it was it was kind of funny

So I and I will say for the for audience. Okay, these guys both came in they came in last -minute

Tim is I believe at a conference. So the fact that he's in we appreciate Although I do enjoy this to be fair Yeah, so I you know the the point being is

I did not give them I said to Greg like lat like last night Like 24 hours ago.

I said, hey you want to you know, invite the other guys on And so to which he sent me a text that says from Tim and Kentington and he shows this text thing

He says Tim says you hate him. Lol. So this is what what Tim said?

He said haha. He hates me I went to his church as a kid Tell him to unblock me and talk to me like an adult

Lol to which my wrist to my response and I don't know if you saw my response was so let me get this straight

He will not come on the show to talk to me as an adult because I blocked him

Please ask him to explain Which one of us is acting like a little child and trying to get his way and refusing to talk

Publicly Andrew, but you've locked me on all social media won't talk to me privately, but Well, you know blocking people on social media it doesn't mean you know, there's plenty of ways to communicate so it's just There went

Greg. What happened Greg? He vanished One question I was

I was curious. It's a real question. You mentioned that I'm a progressive. You want to ask me a second question. Yeah You mentioned

I'm a progressive Christian. I'm just wondering for you. What does that mean? Like how am I a progressive Christian?

Well, it was a term you used in the debate. So do you deny what you said? No, I don't I'm just curious like I'm assuming

I haven't I haven't I haven't seen you in literally 15 years It's the first time in a while Condolences that you got to see this face again

I'm assuming that you're not a fan of progressive Christians I'm just wondering like how you think about what it is that makes me progressive

Yeah, well progressive Christians are those who I would say let's culture interpret Scripture and they're they're not

Christians But we so let me let me ask this actually it was a question that I that I did have when

I watched the debate so since you here I can ask you and because I was you know, cuz I know you may have to go so Could you and I think

Kenton asked you this or? Mentioned it and that's what got me to think about it Could you define what the gospel is?

Means good news good news of Christ. But what is what's the gospel message that ultimately

Christ is reconciling the cosmos? It's the good news What does that mean

What I just said that the crooked will be made straight at some point in the future That God has made a way for us to be reconciled and to partner with his good creation bringing heaven on earth instead of hell on earth

Well, what is what is the way that we get that we do you have reconciliation? Like how do we get reconciled?

Well, I mean you want to ask how the Calvinist thinks that or how the Arminius thinks that right? I mean that people debate this exact thing

I believe it means having a radical allegiance to Jesus and I quote Matthew Bates his book radical allegiance where he

Argues that the word faith is better interpreted allegiance and that's those who have allegiance to the way of Jesus that participate with Christ in his work on earth that are part of the

Plan to reconcile all things back to himself and that includes grace that includes forgiveness that includes understanding all that But I definitely have walked away from the framework that I grew up with that You know if you prayed this prayer, you won't burn in hell one day.

You'll go to heaven one day that idea I think isn't really captured in the Gospels or ultimately what we're really talking about Even NT Wright would argue.

It's about a new a new earth. Not really heaven. So that's kind of how I think about it. So Do you believe at at birth that we are

Enemies of God do we are we at a point before? Whatever you might call salvation. Are we enemies of God?

No, I reject that framework I believe that we have the choice every day to partner with God in his wisdom or to partner with their own desires that bring

Chaos on earth. So I do reject a Calvinist total depravity framework notice. I haven't mentioned anything about Calvinism yet Yeah, I know.

I'm sure we're gonna get there Calvinism either

Enemies of God, why do we need to be reconciled to him? Well because we participate in sin all the time, right?

We we cause damage where we cause separation from ourselves and from our Creator Absolutely doesn't mean that we're naturally an enemy we can choose every day which way we want to go with that okay, so so When you say a

Christian, how does someone become a Christian? By giving allegiance to the way of Jesus.

What does that mean? You read? Okay, so we look at the Beatitudes We look at what Jesus says in Matthew, right? Those who do the will of the

Father etc, and we look at what he teaches We become disciples of Christ following in his footsteps by participating in The work of Christ that he could he is brought on to his disciples that we continue on Okay, so Is there a point in time when someone is not a

Christian becomes a Christian Because what you said is something that can come and go I mean someone can give allegiance and not give allegiance and just that's right

I believe that lose it become a Christian lose it. I think people can walk away from the faith That I didn't say walk away from faith.

I think that people can stop being a Christian they can stop being a Christian Yes, they can give their allegiance to Jesus.

They can revoke that allegiance to Jesus Okay. So is it about? getting right with God as Far as are you talking about like in like a spiritual sense of like I repent of my sins

Well in the sense of atonement as we would see in Leviticus. Yeah, I mean I definitely

Reject penal substitutionary atonement. I have more of a healing atonement theory at this point in my theological journey

That Christ sacrifices is the antidote for sin the virus that's taking over what God called at one point good

But certainly we are agents at times of that sin, right? I mean we look around the world There's tons of chaos humans create that chaos

We create damage all over the earth and certainly repentance to turn and go the other way from that sin is key to the

Christian faith Okay, and I know I'm asking all the questions, but I have something

I'm curious of while you're here. And so Do you believe

Let me ask this. Why did Christ have to die? Why did Christ have to die? Yeah Well, I mean like I said

I offer the healing atonement theory for this that Christ that Christ sacrifice is the antidote for Being able to heal the world of sin once and for all and that process was started with his death

And of course resurrection, which I do affirm Okay, how does his death?

Bring that healing like what's special about his death that would bring the healing resurrection, right?

There's the death and of course the resurrection that that death doesn't have the final saying then again as as Christians We look forward to the day where where we're resurrected again and that death is not the final say in what

God called good So I believe as a Christian my call is to participate in that in the here and now hoping of course

It's it's that tension right of like the here But not yet this idea like we want to be part of this kingdom of God that we're trying to realize on earth as Christ Followers and also realizing that ultimately we're never gonna fully accomplish that but we look forward to the day when

Christ comes back and Reconciles the cosmos back to himself all the crooked sin of the world is made straight again

And we're able to go to code rule with God the way that it was intended to be a creation Okay, can

I jump in here? Cuz I'm confused a little bit. So I just want to me. Hey Tim. Nice to see you again

Oh, yeah, I was having all kinds of video and audio as you said I gotta

I gotta play this since you said that here was a you know, Kennington put this comment up Greg Definitely raptured.

He he was the only true Christian in the bunch. He's back now. So I guess not yeah

He'd look it up on Wikipedia that makes Wikipedia isn't a good theological source for a debate

Andrew So I'm just I want to see where you're coming from Tim because I I know some guys like you and I know some guys

Who and I don't know if you want me to label you as you know deconstructed but in this vein of kind of company

I heard kind of your story when we did the debate of coming out of Of a Christian home and kind of re -examining some things

I think what did you say was in your 20s or was it early? I do not a Christian fundamentalism. I Renegotiated my faith seriously, maybe a few years ago, but ever since 2016

I kind of on that path. Okay, so so to kind of reiterate Andrews question because I'm very interested in this is why is the resurrection important if if if if sin doesn't automatically make us an enemy of God which

I Find laughable if I had someone who was pillaging my house and raping my wife and beating my kids and stealing from me

I'd go. Oh, it's a pretty nice guy, but it's it's just a virus. He'll get over I go know a guy's my enemy until I can something can change so and it's not a

Calvinist view I mean, we know original sin was talked about well before Calvin came or came around but my point is why is

Christ Resurrection important then what what what does that magical thing that antidote that you're talking about do for sin?

That death doesn't have the final sin right sin gives birth to death. Do we all agree on that? Isn't that the problem of sin it gives birth to death.

That's what that's what st Paul says in the scriptures So the resurrection is the symbol that God conquers death and how does he do that?

By giving into death ironically but and so as the Christian the hope is that we one day will be able to be part of that world where death does

Not have the final sting where sin does not reign over right the human condition or the or creation, etc

So and I want to be clear. I'm not saying that Imagine me. I want to be charitable here, especially on your show

Maybe I misinterpreted what you were saying, which I want to own but I was under the impression that what you were saying is like when you're born you're born naturally as in like a

Permanent stasis an enemy of God and what I would say is that we have as humans the ability to do great

Good and great bad I mean we can look at human civilization civil Civilization see people have done really great things with their lives and have had good moments and I've had really bad moments

I've caused a lot of damage So I don't think it's it's a stasis of like I'm I'm all bad or I'm all good at any given time

I mean, this is just Today I can do good and bad If I can if I can jump in here real quick because I think and by the way

Tim my name is Aaron. I watched your debate earlier and I want to share with you at some point

Maybe before you go the text I sent to to Andrew before before all this happened anyway, so I still like actually

I want to kind of be the third guy to kind of reiterate what Andrew has asked and now Then Greg just asked because if I'm hearing you correctly, you're suggesting and correct me if I'm wrong

That Christ's death and resurrection was merely illustrative like it was merely just a a picture of a bigger reality

When when we would say that his his death was efficacious his death and his resurrection did something like it accomplished something

Am I hearing that you're saying it didn't accomplish something? It was just a it was just kind of like a picture like a flannel graph kind of an idea

Well, I mean I believe that Christ physically rose again from the dead to be clear, I don't think it's of course

Yeah, you see I'm gonna put that out there because progressive Christians, you know, I people can think I think it's all I don't think That I believe in a physical resurrection.

What I'm saying is that my understanding and I want to be clear This isn't like a new understanding in my mind I think

I've always believed this even growing up in different spaces is that the resurrection signifies again that like death

This thing that is taking over does not have the final say in the believers life that one day we will live again

So but that word signifies Did it did I did I get the right idea though?

Like you're saying it signifies it images it it you believe that it happened but it happened as As kind of like a signpost and a neon light to the world that this can happen to you, too

But it didn't accomplish anything more than just to signify than just to image. Well, I believe it

It Okay, I think I understand what you're saying in my opinion in my view the resurrection

Signified that the rule of God is happening that it is coming that the kingdom is coming. But again here, but not yet So that's how

I kind of think about it. Yeah, I guess I would just push back and I think oh I guess Andrew and Greg can can tell me if they agree with me on this.

I think I can't into him I'm assuming probably as well We are our position would be that you know

Christ's death and resurrection were a necessary That nothing nobody could be saved had it not happened

And therefore it actually accomplished something in the act of it in the death and in the resurrection

Yes, it signifies things. Yes. It's illustrative of many things for sure, but had it not happened

Mankind could not be reconciled with God. It was an efficacious work that he did So that's why I asked the question to understand where you are because it seems that you you're you don't believe it accomplished anything

Much more than just a hey, look at this. This can be you too. Oh, I'm sorry Yeah to be clear.

No, I think that it was necessary. Like I would be that last part You just said I would agree with Okay, so I think that was the question if I if I'm right

Andrew and Greg I think that's the question that they were asking. Why was it necessary? Why did Jesus have to die and raise again?

Like what did it actually? Accomplish in the warp and woof of humanity to make it possible so we can be reconciled

Well, I made a way for us to reconcile it back to our Creator right is the whole point of it. Yeah and what

I I'm not asking this. I don't want to be a jerk at any way shape or form is asking for clarification And what is that way?

Like how it does that happen? I guess this may be the question Exactly. How does someone participate in that?

Yeah by giving allegiance to the way of the crucified Jesus that rose again I mean that's back to I'm being honest like you you thought you'd become a disciple a follower of Jesus by giving your loyalty not to the

Empire right not to culture but to the way of Jesus So I would start with the gospel accounts to be attitudes

What did he actually teach and I would start there and then work outward that that's what I couldn't that couldn't happen if Christ hadn't died

What do you mean that like it's only gonna be a follower of Jesus yeah, Jesus hadn't died and rose again

Had his ministry teach the attitudes interpreted the law did everything else but didn't die and rise again could we still give allegiance to a

Anyone right people give allegiance to politicians that that's a possibility I give you a reason and a crucified and risen

Messiah. That's why I get my allegiance to Jesus and he had not died and risen again

Would that allegiance to him reconcile them to God? I I would imagine as well

Obviously it happened. So the Christian believes that that's the case so it's a hypothetical and I can't answer because we know that it happened or we believe that it happened and that's our answer to That question if if he didn't

I'm sure there'd be a different religion that we probably be a part of that would claim a different Thing but as a

Christian I affirm and believe that to be reconciled back to your Creator It goes through the crucified and risen

Christ, and I don't want to be I don't want to be short I only have so much time if you want to ask Christian nationals questions, too.

We can do that I just know how long you guys want to go on this. I'm happy Can I share with him the text

I sent to you? Yeah, go for it. Okay so Right after finishing the video.

I immediately texted him and I said, oh man, we're gonna have it's just gonna be so much fun tonight I said half of that debate was an absolute dumpster fire and The other half

I disagree with I Wrote this to him and I sent a smiley face along with it as well

So that kind of puts both of you in the position of like, okay Well, which one which half did he think was a dumpster fire and which half did he disagree with and what?

What and here's and here's the thing. I want you to know Tim so you and I have I mean, I would love to be in the same room with you because our our

Relationship, I think would be just so complex in so many beautiful ways Hey, I was brought up homeschooled in the fun of independent fundamentalism, however,

I still consider myself a fundamentalist I'm also not a covenant theologian. Okay, so that kind of puts me in an interesting position with some people here.

I Completely agree with your argument

So I completely agree with with your argument against Christian nationalism. I think that Some of your arguments

Were spot -on but others of them I was just like oh that that was the dumpster fire for me that you were bringing some of these

Arguments and saying some of these things within the context of the debate Kenton, I I'm not a Christian nationalist.

I Don't agree with it but I also really appreciate a lot of things that you said and I found myself back and forth the whole time like like Applauding both of you and other times been like, oh, come on So, I mean

I mean in so many ways I honestly would love to get to know more you guys better just because I think that our

Trajectories have so much in common and yet so disparate as we go along But I want

Andrew to jump back in here cuz I've been taking a lot of time But I guess and I know you you need to leave too So Andrew consider if this is maybe something you want to talk about One of the things that really stuck out to me is you kept talking about the love of God, right?

I love of Jesus in particular and you you kept saying that basically, you know, you can't be a

Christian nationalist and Inclined to love God because you're attacking people and you have authority over these people and so on and so forth

My question is though your how you defined Jesus's love was categorically different as I understand love from the scriptures

Jesus's love in particular the love that he calls us to have the love that we can have because he had it for us so I'm really really really interested in how you actually

Like define love and how you can support that from the scriptures that that is the definition of love

My general argument in the debate with Canton, which by the way can't it's good to see you again I do appreciate you talking to me on on the debate a lot of Christian nationals

And this is not a shot at Andrew because we already talked about it But a lot of other people will block me and won't talk to me. It's very annoying So I'll talk to almost anyone point hopefully is here

My general thesis is that Christian nationalism inherently goes against the teachings of Jesus Jesus says blessed are the meek

Christian nationalism says blessed are the powerful Jesus says love your enemy Christian nationalism says

No, you should crucify your enemy, etc. So my point I don't think I said love of God or that you can't love

God I don't think that I think that Christian nationalists a are real Christians. I think that they do think that they're loving God I think it's incompatible with the teachings of Jesus as laid out in the gospel account.

It's in particular There's some of the most core teachings the Sermon on the Mount in particular I was kind of site because those are the core teachings of Jesus and I am a little

Christ. I'm a follower of Christ So the examples that you brought up in particular about this was if if a

Christian nationalists were to take somebody Like an atheist or someone who had abortion or homosexual? I know Kenton does not prescribe to this but take those people and then throw them into jail, right?

The book the case for Christian nationals and that's his you said that would not be love

They're an atheist in prison for being an atheist, that's correct Okay, okay. We're so we'd be loving for throwing a drug dealer in Jail for being a drug dealer for sure because they're causing so much damage to their community

I mean, I think Andrew you're an apologetic. That's a false equivocation, right? My point I'm gonna be very clear about this

Stephen Wolfe who wrote the book the case for Christian nationalism says publicly that under his rule

We enforce blasphemy laws, which by the way does violate the First Amendment But whatever and that the atheists is thrown in prison for being an atheist

So that that in particular that what he said, I'm not making that up that particular point to me does not benefit a society of people

A Drug dealer who is dealing drugs in his neighborhood or her neighborhood and hurting people putting them in prison would actually benefit societies

It would stop drugs from being dealt around So here's my logical conclusion because I'm hearing what you're saying. And again,

I'm not arguing Christian nationalism. I don't I am NOT a Christian nationalist I don't agree with it. Okay, so I'm not arguing that but when

I read the scriptures and I want my answers really as a Christian speaking into this to have to come from the scriptures and not just come from the

Constitution or you know our Republic or whatever the case may be when I look at the scriptures what

I see is that God uses lots of different words to describe sin and the strongest words he uses to describe the strongest words he has for sin are used in particular of Idolatry, which is sometimes called spiritual adultery

Worshiping another God so on and so forth. So yes As a bit more in the orphan in the widow that those are the other big things he has a very strong language exactly 100 %

Yeah abomination for sure. Yeah About this. Oh, yeah, of course, but I'm a biblical counselor.

I work with addicts. I see what drugs do in a society, right? It's bad. Yeah typically speaking though What we see is that Idolatry is infinitely worse

Idolatry is is Really at the root at the core of every other sin if I'm worshiping self

I am going to commit every sin in the book, right? So it is the veritable sin from which all sins grow so to make the argument that an atheist which

Yes, I'm gonna make some assumptions that that atheist is not a closet atheist that there's teaching that there's you know There he lives in a lustrative lifestyle and so on and so forth

Actually is biblically speaking an exceptionally dangerous thing because what it's doing is it's lying it's lying to the world

It's leaving people away from the truth. It's encouraging people to be like him, which is an idolater and I would say that's really bad

What do you think? So a couple questions here make sure I understand So the general argument that I hear you saying is that how you understand the

Bible's idolatry is the the gravest most most intense sin One can possibly commit with the most amount of consequences all problems in the world are caused from idolatry of the self and therefore an atheist who would be preaching

I guess about self is more dangerous than a drug dealer dealing heroin in his neighborhood and Maybe she would put in prison for because of that Is that kind of line of reasoning before you answer

Aaron just and we do this we do this Tim So I want to stop and just for the audience to point out what

Tim just did and you've seen a couple times with different People but because this is we're here to teach how to do apologetics.

What did Tim do Tim stopped Aaron? For clarifying questions

This is a very important to do when we do apologetics if you don't understand what the person you're talking to is saying what they mean by the words that they're using then

You're gonna talk past one another. So what are you seeing go on right here? You're seeing that Tim is going.

Okay, let me clarify Gives that what he what did he do? He rehearsed what he thinks he heard and then asked is this what you're saying?

Very important to do things like this folks when you do apologetics Aaron, go ahead Which is exactly the reason that I wanted to get in and understand this idea of love too

It was really important because I think you know We can both all talk about love and be talking past each other because our definitions are so different to answer your point though I think

I could agree with 99 % of the way you worded it. I would say that Spiritually speaking.

Yes. I mean physically speaking, of course One could argue that drugs, you know, they ravage people and so on and so forth in the historic communities but spiritually speaking

The drug dealers first and foremost main issue is not the drugs The drugs are secondary tertiary

Quad tertiary things in his life the the main thing that's going to have him end up and spend eternity in a lake of fire

Separated from God is the fact that he is not worshiping God and I also know

Christians I know Christians who struggle with with with drug addiction. So and I'm helping those people through that So I would say that a

Christian who's in that sin, right? That's also a unique thing to consider is is the Christian who's in Involved in drugs in the same spiritual desperate position that the atheist is

I would argue. No, he's not So I does that is that clarify do you do you think that you had the right understanding of what

I was? I believe that makes sense. Can I ask a follow -up question now? I think I understand I know I don't misrepresent you.

So what I'm I guess what I'm asking you ultimately is in Society like in American society, right?

That would it be in this at this moment ruled by a constitution that has a very strong First Amendment many people especially right -wing

Organizations, right? They were all about the free speech thing So are you saying that that you would advocate for?

Saying hey if if I was in charge of this American society I would also be in favor of something that would also mitigate

The atheist just for being an atheist because no my belief is those things. Okay, that's a

Christian. Yeah, that's a Christian Like hey, I have this view. I understands my view versus like now everyone else has to assimilate into said view, correct?

Yeah, no, I yeah, I think it was mentioned on the show I think Greg actually may have said it on his show that uh, all right

Kenton probably did too. You can't force anybody You can't legislate True heart change, right? So so no, that's not what

I'm born history by Constantine and that didn't go over so well. Yeah Yeah, the reason

I'm asking though is really it's again Tim I guess the my interesting thing is like if I were to when the times comes for Kenton and I to speak

You know He and I are gonna be talking from a very different perspective because I'm gonna be talking about his views on Christian nationalism

You I agree with for the most part that Christian nationalism isn't a good thing However, I think my biggest struggle with your and I'm keeping this really limited to the yeah

I heard my struggle with your yours the way you you went at that is that I believe that you were not being

Biblically accurate spiritually accurate with the ideas when you when you would say that a drug dealer

Yes the most loving thing we can do for him is to throw him into jail to keep him from having that effect on the Community and to keep him from having that effect on himself

That's a good thing But to say that to do whatever is necessary to keep an atheist from having that spiritual influence on a community

Well, that's okay. Because what we live in America and free speech. Well, hold on biblically speaking I think it's very clear that we could argue from the scriptures that the a that the atheist that the idolater is going to have

A much more impactful spiritual influence on people than the drug dealer. Yeah this is the full circle moment where you know, we kind of get into like the never -ending argument of what

I'm gonna say to that is Of course is that we're all be every Christian I know is debating what the Bible says and doesn't say and so I understand that term

This is biblical, but that dies at death by a thousand to one qualifications depending on the tradition You're in who you're talking to etc

And that was kind of my challenge for Kenton that and you know I don't want to bring Kent if you want to be great But one of my questions to him and I mean

Andrew everyone's to answer This is what are God's laws that we're talking about that like what's the list here and like how are we picking and choosing in?

the Bible which laws are being enacted in which ones aren't under Christian nationalism and I think if we ask that question to all five of us all five of us would probably have a different answer about what we think is the biblical answer to that and so I just think ultimately this notion of biblical

Just by observation just by observation of even conservative evangelical Christianity Layton flowers and James White is a great example of that, right?

They both argue that they had the biblical position and they go around around around Trying to give the proof text and the proofs why everyone's wrong and they're still trying to claim that they both are being more

Accurate than the other one. It's it's it's a it's a it's a never -ending circle. So Answer what out of the five of us out of the five of us.

I'm the one that's right. That's what's the problem So forgive me and if I'm if I'm overstepping my bounds

Andrew just let me know it's your show I respect that but I hear I grew up in an environment that gave me the strength of saying the

Bible is objectively true And here's how you interpret it or whether they wouldn't say it that way

They would just say this is the Bible clearly teaches the Bible's objective truth Just do this you're saying objective truth

And then what happened to my life and this is early on was I was attending a very conservative more reformed

Baptist Church And then I went to a more charismatic church that was like no women can lead Oh, no,

Tim, that's objectively true too in the same in the same Bible and here's our arguments for it I realized very quickly that this claim that we're standing on the objective truth of God's Word dies to death of a thousand qualifications

Depending on what tradition of the Christian of the Christian house you're in and yes

Let me jump into that for a bit So the the issue is it comes down to our hermeneutic and they said for the audience, okay

It looks like this is four on one. Okay, Tim that has no problem with this So I know something about him and his family.

I he's he's not gonna mind He likes the discussion. So first for that's first second.

I should Very quickly. It's three on to the beards verse the no bear I Have a beard it is just very short right now

Okay Sure, you can't see it. Hey, you know before Christmas my beard was a bit longer than yours

But I was gonna keep it for the February conference, but since it got canceled I shaved so For the record for anyone watching the video

Tim put his name there. Not me. So when it says progressive heretic Tim Whitaker aggressive heretic

I put I removed the banner so they would show up so people would see I did not do that Okay, so so I'm saying that he he can handle the discussion even if it's four on one or three beards

Against one beard and you know the one Jewish guy who's right? Um But So it comes out the hermeneutics it comes out at what are what are gonna be rules of interpretation

All right, so we are gonna have disagreements there Tim. I would I would argue though, you know something like Sound like you brought and maybe we could get a fuller discussion on that is the women preaching

When we look at the at grammar, which is how we understand language There really is it's really clear because it's based in creation.

Now. I know you got to go shortly I Wanted to say one thing about the debate

And we had a question that came up for you and I figured let me just say this So one of the things

I saw we in the debate with you Is you did a lot and I don't know if you realize it

I'd encourage you to go back and and look a lot of your argumentation was by example rather than by scripture and so in doing so It Creates an emotional and this is what

I wanted to bring this up because folks when you're when you watch debates You will see people that will the latent flowers is a great example of this

He'll take a parable and start expounding the parable in a meaning that it doesn't actually have we shouldn't do that It's an argument by else by example or illustration that it can create a very emotional response but we have to be able to put the emotion aside and say is that a

Good response a logical response a biblical response in this case since we're debating arguing what the

Bible says So, you know and Very quickly,

I you know, I can't believe I'm doing this but I'm gonna defend Tim here a little bit though Do when you talk about and I love you,

Tim I disagree at 95 % of what you're saying, but I love you But also you're saying a parable in hermeneutic

Look at it goes to what Tim said I can read a parable and then read a Fawcett and Brown commentary a

Matthew Henry Henry commentary Commentary and they all three will have a different meaning of what the parable was.

So So I do understand where he's coming from in that Well, he wasn't doing the parables that was look that I use that example with Leighton, but it's like Pretty close to a parable.

That's what Christ did a lot Yeah, because the parable is to support the main thing and what when we start looking at you know

Well, the second son me it represents this and you know, you start digging into it more than the main point It becomes a problem

Tim. You're gonna say sir. Do you mind if I respond to that Andrew? I can't answer that too There are two reasons why

I didn't I guess quote a lot of scripture The first one was the thesis of the debate is

Christian nationalism good for society Christian nationalism is the word here Okay, so I wanted to answer that question by giving examples of why

I didn't think it was good for society But the other thing is is that you know, I mean and I love your response to this

I really would there are I can cite I mean James 5 now Listen, you rich people weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you

Your wealth has rotted and mobs have eaten your clothes your gold and silver are corroded Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire.

You have hoarded wealth in the last days The wages you failed to pay to the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you, etc

I could quote that and be like look guys the Bible doesn't really support the idea of billionaires because they're hoarding their wealth and usually you accumulate that money by not paying your people a fair wage and so I could

I could that would be a horrible hermeneutic though because Look at the whole stream of the

Bible what Proverbs says about riches and wealth and what James says about it and what the rice About it what his parable says about giving giving workers the wage that you agreed to not setting up when

Christ says that it's harder for a rich man head of the Kingdom is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. I mean, this is the thing And this is this is the million -dollar point

I think is it's worth pointing out What you've done is you've given your you're playing by rules of hermeneutic rules that you have

You're saying that because I read the Bible plainly and you're like, well that doesn't say what you think it says and then you actually

Reinterpret some of those verses based on your hermeneutic and then tell me that I'm the one who's reading culture into the

Bible I can give you 25 passages on why you shouldn't probably deport immigrants because the

Bible says so but this is a point On Christ upholding the courts and upholding boundaries within a country yeah, but Hold on I bet you would argue though that things like what happened during Kovac when the courts upheld certain things that you disagree with would not

Be biblical. I mean I watched I watch I have watched for almost a decade even to little

Christians Rewrite their own theology to support things that they would never have supported 15 years ago

Like when Bill Clinton had the affair in the White House and Trump's bragging about grabbing women and they have a whole different way for How they justify why

Trump's still good and Clinton's still bad so There is a big difference there because what?

Trump did was 40 years ago 30 years ago. And what Clinton did was present -day Oh, so so sin so so when the wages of sin matters being on the time frame

What has Trump repented for grabbing women Huh There's no evidence he actually did it and actually when you see when you watch the video

You watch his body language in the video. You see that he he pushes the the one male reporter between him and the woman

Yeah, because are you did you actually see the case and listen to the case we should we should talk about that Andrew was the let me ask you one more question.

I'll stop. Yeah, what is it? What is the 2020 election stolen or not? Was it a free and fair election? Was it stolen?

I know it definitely wasn't a free and fair election. There was Okay, let me ask you this was the 2016 elections there

What was 16 which yeah, yeah, it was fair really Before you go

I am Yeah, I could give you

I can give you the reasons can't think in wants to talk hold up You're all a question for you Tim before you go Based on on what you know of them.

Would you consider Andrew and Aaron Christian nationalists? I Honestly, I don't

I mean Andrew I really mean I haven't talked to you in what it's it's been 15 maybe 16 years

I don't know. I don't know What's up, we talked online and then

I had to block you because you were filling up my wall I Don't know what Andrew would believe

I mean, maybe we could talk about it again in the show And you'd be happy to discuss about it discuss it with you and talk about the 2020 election

You gotta go and I know we got the thing let me ask you one question Why was

Kamala Harris not why was she in the DNC? when she was going to be voted in as vice president and not in the in this

Senate at the time that she was going to make history and Why was there a bomb outside the

DNC? You know anything about that. Can you read? I'm sorry. Ask the question again.

I didn't really go Why was why was Hill Harris not in the Senate when she's about to be?

Confirmed as vice president the first black woman vice president Why why was she at the

DNC where there was a fake bomb? There do you know anything about that?

No, is that your evidence that January 6 was an inside job? Oh, yeah, because it was because they had it staged

May I may Tim I want to I'm gonna pause everyone there for a moment.

Here's a question from calculus, man And then I got one more question for for Tim. So a question for Tim He said what what about folks who are in other religions do

Muslims? Jews Catholics, etc Need to follow Jesus or are you saying they're okay to stay in their own religion system?

I love how Catholics is in there Well Catholics would say that that what we believe is anathema they would say that we're cursed to hell and you would say the same thing and then you both point the finger at the

Problem I don't have a problem with saying My belief about like the about like I mean ultimately

I think that this question is asking also like when we die What happens right? Like do we go to heaven or hell? That's kind of like what this all kind of boils down to I think that I'm still kind of actually asking myself these questions

What this means I kind of hold to the annihilationist perspective of I reject eternal conscious torment Universal reconciliation

I'm attracted to but I never want to share a hammock with Hitler. I don't like that idea. And so Annihilationism is kind of like the in -between for me of like there's still a sense of justice and finality for people who really do so Much damage and there's also the hope of reconciliation

I don't know how it works with people in different faith religions and what happens when they die

I do know that I have plenty of friends and all these traditions do a lot of good in the world and I would argue Find some ways follow the teachings of Jesus more closely

But some of my own Christian friends when it comes to loving their neighbors and loving their enemies, etc I'm still working through it.

I don't have answers. The question is do they need to follow Jesus or are they okay in their own religion system?

Why um, do they need to follow Jesus in order to what to not burn in hell forever? Like what would for what what would be the need?

Well, you were saying that we need to give allegiance to God So as a Christian I give allegiance to the way of Jesus you said

I have reconciliation with God We need to follow the ways of Jesus. I said all things go through Jesus That Jesus reconciles everything through the cosmos, yes

The way of Jesus to have reconciliation with God I think that you can might and that's the thing is

I keep going back to the teachings of Jesus Can someone do that without actually claiming to be a Christ follower?

I don't know That was his teaching. I'm the way the truth in the life. No one comes wasn't talking about eternal conscious format

That's that's about While they debunked Reconciliation I'm talking about reconciliation

You said you need to show allegiance to Christ have reconciliation to God Jesus says to have reconciliation

No man comes to the Father except through me through allegiance to me And now when someone asks you do

Muslims and Jews and people of religions need to leave that you go Well, I'm kind of up in the air on that I Respect that but then you can't claim allegiance to Christ and his teachings if you then say

I'm up in the air on some of the things he says that's not true because One at a time one at a time let

Tim respond to Greg Actually the point

I wanted to bring up in the question I wanted to ask was actually to help you formulate the answer to Greg when the show opened

Andrew was talking about projection, right? And there have been a couple times in this talk that you have specifically said you guys when you're talking about hermeneutic and how we interpret the scriptures and things like that and you were like you you guys you read the

Bible and you say This and you say this and you say this you exempted yourself From that category like somehow when you read the

Bible You're not doing whatever it is that you're claiming that we're doing when you said that Well, he doesn't know what our positions are

But yeah, but I would admit though I would admit that that that my culture my historical context does affect how

I understand and read the Bible Like I had no problem saying that I said many times So I would make the observation as well that you keep saying

I don't know what I believe about that I don't know what I think about that I don't and so so actually what

I think is really interesting is that you've got guys who are taking the scriptures and Who I think for the most part we agree and I maybe know this because I know them a little bit better I could assume that Kenton would say this as well that we want the scriptures to interpret the scriptures

We say that you push back. Yeah. Well you guys just read and find out and if I view hell have different five different, okay

But at least what we're doing is we're trying to take the scriptures and making certain that the scriptures are agreeing with scriptures so that when we're talking about the rich man, we're looking at a

Biblical understanding of riches across the spectrum. Whereas you seem to come back to your own

Understanding your own ability to figure it out your own what seems good to you What kind of seems like something that you might like to be the truth?

And I'm just interesting that you project on to us that we're ripping things out of context as we read the scriptures

But I'm not hearing you do anything different In fact what I'm hearing you do is that even more so because you're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture

Yeah, yeah Well, that's exactly my point is that what and I said this against I think in our debate is that all of us whether we realize

It or not do have some kind of bias that we bring to anything that we read including the scriptures, right?

We're a product of modern America in 2024. We are in a capitalist society

We are individualists and the Bible was not written in that context

But do you believe the Bible and so one understanding what um, no,

I think it's multiplicity of understandings You think when God wrote it? He Wrote the

Bible then we assign Distinction though because God did not magically write the Bible right people when he inspired the

Bible Well, yeah, well when he inspired it when he breathed it Okay, when he breathed is an assumption you put on to the text which you can do but it's not it's not inherent to the text

We all know we all know that the New Testament wasn't canonized when Paul what you think

Paul wrote that part of the scripture, right? Yeah, that was son. You said in the debate that's so wrong

Why did all the Jewish people know that Genesis was Scripture Peter why could

Peter refer to what Paul writes as scripture? Why is it that that? Luke's can refer to something in the

Old Testament and in the New and call it scripture Andrew We all know that what you that passage about in first to me

I think it is right where it says all scriptures God breathe first off that it doesn't say God inerrant I but I digress

God read that when that was written The New Testament was not written yet entirely and it wasn't canonized yet and even if you take what

Peter says about Paul's teach letters there are other books in the Bible that Paul didn't write that we Still canonize and then you have the problem of the

Catholic scriptures. These are orthodox scriptures This is a huge discussion in debate You are more than welcome to assign whatever value you want to the

Protestant English Bible and call it inerrant or God breathed That doesn't mean that it actually is on its face

Just so we can we can illustrate Notice I want you guys to notice what

Tim is doing there He's saying we all know and then says something that three of us just kind of said

No, we don't agree with right. We don't all know because we don't agree with it. We don't Argue that we argue that with a scripture that was written.

It was clear at the time that it was scripture So when when Timothy when when

Paul writes? 2nd Timothy He is using he creates a word actually that never existed before Okay, and so he says all scripture is

God breathed inspired by God It's a word he as far as we know he created because we don't see it in history.

Mm -hmm so he is he is referring to the word of Scripture when he says in when

God says in Peter that it's not from the words of men. It's it's it's the Word of God That's where we get this from Fine question.

Yeah. Yeah, I knew you got to go and I do People they were in the Respect your time.

I just I as you can tell I enjoy debating. It's a lot of fun. I know you Which is why you should be here

Is what you're saying again, I do want to reset it back so much I'm not What you're saying is that when

Paul wrote that he had the modern English Protestant Bible in mind

And not his own Hebrew scriptures when he wrote that all scripture is God breathed when he says scripture Is he referring to the

Bible we have today or to the Jewish Bible? He's he's referring to the Jewish Bible that was written and the

Greek parts that had already been written. I Just got word. I do too.

I would say he's referring to that which has been That would be that my god which would be anything that was written to that point

So, I mean Peter Peter can recognize that what Paul wrote is scripture at the time that Peter's writing

He didn't need a church or anything else The scriptures were immediately known to be scripture

By folks, let's not forget the New Testament 40 % of it is just re -quote re -quoting the

Old Testament as well That's a fun little fact I'm gonna have to check that if it's a

Not probably not quotes but allusions and things then I might not necessarily word -for -word, but you know, yeah

Yeah, well, that's where you get a quotes the illusions. Yeah So so, all right,

Tim, I you know one thing I don't let me just double -check make sure there's no other questions for folks here And and so you

I think it would be fun to You know, I I don't want to debate politics here.

We could have a lot of fun with that privately But Yeah, cuz yeah, it'd be a bunch of things you just don't know watching the

Mainstream media, but you know, I go to right -wing events, right? I go to America Fest every year I know Charlie Kirk personally, so I keep track of what's going on Really quick if we're putting in bookends on this for Tim jumping out here

Can I go back to the very first thing we talked about and just ask him how he looks at Psalm 51 5

Surely I was sinful at birth sinful from the time my mother Conceived me not when I was born, but when

I was conceived I'm just I'm not gonna argue with you and I'm just like how do you interpret that in when you read something like that?

What is that? I'll use the same framework that I hear people say whenever I talk about the rich man who can't enter the kingdom

He's talking about himself there. He's not making a blanket statement for all of humanity. It's a it's a hard issue It's an individual statement about him

So he so he's saying I was sinful at birth Sinful from the time that I was conceived just me.

Well, he's saying I not we The Bible is clear Okay So every every person has a different level of sin.

They're born with them either zero to a hundred. Let's say well I mean, that's a different question. Do you ask me about some people?

Simple at birth so he's obviously lamenting it's obviously poetry We know Psalms is songs and poetry So I don't think that that is an answer for all humans are born simple at birth.

That's my answer. I really do So, let me just do this

I Wanted just because while you're here one last thing and I do I do think we have you come back

Well, let's talk about this the first first Timothy passage on women preaching. All right, so describe

I wanted to see if I get this right you described in the debate that you grew up in a church That was a

MacArthur like church. Very Calvinistic. Yes. Do you hold to that? What to those views?

No to that. That's this is that description of the church you grew up in The the one that I think we both went to the one in in in Freehold Howell area,

New Jersey. Yeah Understanding so so late. I'm gonna I'm gonna put to be fair.

But yeah Yeah, so you and you would you would say that you were it was a very conservative church, right

When I was there there was a piano and hymns only. Yeah, there was I was the first drummer. I was 11 So so Greg, I'm gonna put you on the spot.

Great I'm gonna ask you if you think this church is conservative Or Calvinistic ready?

Yeah, the pastor of the church was on the board of holy yoga. Would they be conservative?

I Would tend to say no if they're involved in yoga in any way The pastor of the church had a new election of corporate election would would they be

Calvinistic no So it so you shouldn't describe the church that way it's like no

There's no pastor that I know from from Paul To Jeff to Joe who's there now.

None of them were Calvinist. They would they would have fought that I'm not sure to tell you man.

I mean I grew up in a tradition that taught me the tool of theology I'm maybe was a youth group leader.

I don't know. No, it's not you could be more you Hold on. I love that that that picture though.

There's some rogue youth group 22 year old up there teaching tulip to a bunch of my man

I'm in my cage stage. We're going through What's that young wrestlers and reform stage, you know,

I was right around there anyway, so yeah, no the the church was not Conservative.

I mean maybe under Paul not Paul jurists, I would say yes.

It probably was liberal. Huh? You think it was liberal? It got more and more from Paul to Jeff to to Joe, yeah, well,

I wasn't there I never met Joe We left when Jeff was are you left before Joe? Okay, so that's why the look

I thought you were still there under Joe So Joe was the was on the board of holy yoga No, but but no

Jeff Jeff was definitely, you know, he was not concerned he fancied himself as a

MacArthurite type following after MacArthur, but Jeff you know,

Jeff didn't even he plagiarized all sermons. That's when I Do you mean like political or theological?

Logical, okay Hey, I know I said I gotta go. I really do. Hey Andrew it for what it's worth.

It is good seeing you Please don't block me. We can keep talking Well, we can keep talking here because this is where look this show is open to anyone anytime, right?

So you're a bold man for doing that the the yeah Great Greg says it's like his he doesn't add for it and I forget how he worded it just like it

Yeah, it's fun. Just watch everything. Yeah, I never know that I'm gonna have a debate Sometimes people come in if we have a guest and have a like if you come in we'll give you the first hour

But then we try to answer questions On the second hour and if people don't ask questions, we just go for the full two hours

So I think it'd be fun to do it just to a discussion work our way through second Timothy to that could be a lot

Why they're both on here just once again, I want to say to Kenton and Tim Thank you so much for coming on and doing that and Tim obviously coming into You know even like a live stream like this where you're gonna disagree probably on most things with most of the guys on here

I appreciate you doing that. I find it fun I'd love to have you back on the podcast and we just hash it up for about two three hours and yell at each other

And then find out what we're gonna meet up for bourbon. I'm all about it. I'm sorry I have so much of the time you really 45 minutes

Real quick if you but he left I was gonna say if you if he wants to get a hold of me There's the contact information info.

It's driving for turn .com. So Maybe you could send that I think I have

I probably have his dad's number, but you can Andrew I'll give you a little hint to on X what you do is you don't necessarily have to block you just mute them

Yeah, yeah mute them that way you can check in see if everything's going okay But you don't have to get the 500 posts where you go.

I'm just kind of fed up with it I have a few of those I can see how Tim could get to that too I've some of his stuff comes through and I'm like, oh my gosh,

I don't want to get in a four -hour argument today. So So you just mute

Yeah, I just I'm not I'm not you don't you don't strike me as the blocking type You'll talk to anyone anywhere when he said you blocked him

I went it doesn't seem like Andrew because you know, I do has his lines. I'll block people. Well, it's not

Facebook What did you say Aaron? Line in the sand

Yeah, no the the unfit what I think we if I block people on Facebook It's generally because they're they're going to my wall or just commenting on things and you can't there's no way like I don't want to Just keep deleting stuff and I can't and I see it right and I mean

I mean it's on my wall I feel I have to respond to it And so yeah, so I block people there on Twitter.

I didn't know you could do the muting I guess I'm not as familiar with X, but I've started switching over there

So I do that because man when I with a full preterist we're on full gear We'll talk about that and in the upcoming episode.

I did want to get into The question for him, but we didn't get you know, you guys talked about some 110

In the debate, and I don't know it, you know, I don't know Kennington if you're gonna be able to make an argument for him

Because I wanted to ask him about that too Cuz that's one of the things when I looked back on and watching and I was like I should have jumped all over that I don't know what he was saying when he said my interpretation was objectively wrong

Well, okay. So the thing he did the same thing that I called him out for here was that he goes Everyone knows it's objectively wrong.

Yeah, and and so that is a style and Logical fallacy in and of itself when you know, it's right.

I can't remember the formal name for it. But yeah Yeah and and you know folks more important than knowing all the names of fallacies and you can go if you go on striving fraternities

YouTube Channel, I have my eight -week class on debate and logic so, you know teaching how to do debates and When we get into the logic,

I explain it's it's better to know what makes a statement invalid rather than going Oh, I know all the the names because most people get the names wrong

Speaking of logic though. I think yes, he's asking is that appeal to masses and it could be

I Think it's only logical now that the three of us gang up on Kenton. I mean, I just I think that's fair.

It'd be fair. It'd be fair Melissa Melissa had said Tim. Thank you for taking the time to come on tonight.

And yeah, look as as you know, Greg said it it takes a certain type of person who could come in and You know take on several people that he knows he would be

I mean, you know, you clearly know he knew that he was going to be disagreed with Because he put his his handle there under his name, you know as progressive heretic

So The only problem is yeah, it does but we never really got any answers

It's a lot of well, I interpret it this way. I think I'm working on that You know I really would have liked to got to when he's talking about Beatitudes just say, you know in 522 and when

Christ says But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court

And then right after that says Raqqa shall be before the Sanhedrin. So you see Christ in his

Beatitudes bringing the court system a justice system in and a religious sect in saying you those have

Those fears have authority in your life who brings in eternal judgment Right the fire of hell

So and I'm not and that's not that I'm saying I'm advocating for you know We're gonna behead all atheists under Christian nationalism.

Like I told Kenton to I'm probably You know,

I might be 80 % of the way there but I'm a I'm a general equity theonomist I'm a reformed Presbyterian I hold to the

Westminster. I believe from 1782 to about 1820 in this country we got really darn close to a nice style of Christian nationalism where we took the

Ten Commandments the Mosaic law and we took the general equity from them and made laws from that starting in about 1910 to 1920

That's where things really started to get skewed with the federal government income taxes private You know central banking all that kind of stuff and now we're way far off base

So I think we did we probably got it 75 % of the way there and the founding of this country of what a

Christian nation Should look like I don't think we went quite far enough And I think I don't go as far as say a

Stephen Wolf on some things so it's interesting you say that and you give the year because what changed around that time and What changed was so you had you had

What what people were seeing was the the modernism coming in? Right in this.

So this is the history of the fundamentalist movement. They're responding to that and I really see and we're

You know Kenton is gonna hate this. I At least I admit it up front. I really see a lot of What the fundamentalists were doing is what some of the

Christian nationals are doing today is in a response to the culture they're fighting the modernism and really, what was the change the big changing point scopes monkey trial and when scopes monkey trial occurred

The fundamentalist said that's it. We're pulling out of society and they did they pulled out and just created a vacuum

But I think the reason so much that happened was because they were fighting trying to push a social agenda or political agenda and When they felt that they lost credibility on that they just pulled away altogether

I think that's and Kenton you might disagree I think a lot of what's going on with the Christian nationalism is pushing a political social agenda

Rather than a biblical one. I I have so I personally My view of Christian nationalism and you could agree or disagree

And I haven't read Stephen Wolf's book or any of the other books because like when everyone's looking at you I want to say to Tim there's like four different books out there on Christian nationalism that say that there's you know, the the

Definition of it. So it's like yeah, so it's clearly not something that's that's so clear.

But I The real issue I have with the terminology at least is that it started from the left and the

Marxist, you know have that term to basically be able to Go after all

Christians and say, oh see all the Christians are trying to Change the government and therefore I think what it was was it was going to be had

Harris won him in my opinion That had they gone that way they would have been able to use that Christian nationalism to start calling

Christians insurrectionists Terrorists and using that as a ploy to to arrest him and so Christians taking that on and then

Arguing for that I think just plays right into their hands Fortunately, we had a different election

But yeah, I think The framing coming from the left certainly it started with them, but if it's an accurate

Label, I'm like I I take the label because I'm a Christian. I'm a nationalist I believe that a nation should work together for its own

Collective good. I think every American should think that America is the best Think that Cuba is the best nation in the world, right?

So I'm a Christian and I'm a nationalist and the marriage of those two things isn't a label that I would

Outright reject and so I'm you know in the same boat. I haven't read Steven Wolf's book either and in terms of What is a

Christian nationalist? I'd probably be a lot closer to Greg So the only pride the only guy who read Steven Wolf's book on Christian nationalism here on this program tonight was the guy who

Vimily disagrees with all of it It's on my reading list, but my reading list is

Yeah, I I think it's a good label to take because it's it's accurate to I am a

Christian and I'm a nationalist and I think That the marriage of those two things works for society's good,

I think that our nation our Government adopting the principles and edicts from Scripture would make us into a great nation again

I think yeah, I think what Tim did was he obviously painted the worst possible self -professing

Christian nationalist because in many ways I mean what you just how you describe yourself a Christian who's also a nationalist

I mean that is that that could be understood in such a completely vague and almost Blase type of very neutered way like I could consider not considering myself a

Christian nationalist I could say of myself and I'm a Christian, but I'm also a patriotic American and quote -unquote nationalists, right?

so the real the real thing that I'm interested to hear from you is What makes you being a

Christian nationalist? Denny different than me being a Christian nationalist like what what like What to what what do you subscribe to and not not so much what you don't subscribe to?

That would be difficult for me to answer because I don't know you very well. Hi, I'm Kenton. It's great to meet you That part was a little that's true,

I guess maybe just more specifically like We said hi before And I prophesied beforehand that Andrew was gonna do what

Andrew was gonna call you three eight different things I don't remember. Have you been keeping count? Yeah No, yeah, you're right the comparison is probably unfair but I am curious with all the other

Christian nationalists out there Would it be would you agree? I'm not gonna say that everyone agrees, but would you agree that?

It's hard to find other Christian nationalists who think exactly like you do about it and that there's a lot of different thoughts out there

Or do you find that there's a big group of people who are right where you are? I think it's a very very poorly defined term

I think there's a lot of different definitions for it. A lot of people will take it to mean a lot of different things You know, you're not dangerous

Use the term differently than your Pete Hex. That's gonna use you see than your Joel weapon That's the

Day that we need to avoid the term. I think James White and I forget the term he had but he came up with a different term first off Let's redeem it

They don't get they don't get to make up words and then take them from us and redefine them The left doesn't make you they created the term.

We're the ones that are changing it. No, no, but I think with the most broad definition the definition that I gave at the beginning of the debate that a

Christian nationalist is someone who believes that a nation should be governed by the Laws and culture of that that is put forth by Scripture.

I think all of those people could fall under that banner But it's which ones that you're enforcing and which ones you aren't the particulars the minutiae.

That's my point two is You got to realize like wolf is the took so much heat for that book because he really was the first one two years

Ago to go. Okay Let's let's get into minutiae This is what I would do with X Y & Z and this is what the right and everyone went.

Oh my gosh What are you doing? Well, you you have to take that stand at some point, you know It's kind of it's kind of lazy for me to say.

Oh my general equity theonomist. Well, what's the general equity of? Dual woven fabrics right now that's ceremonial law.

That's not civil law But even if we take us a civil law, you know pair of it around the roof, you know

And we can take building codes out of that. Well, even that has to have some type of Interpretation, right?

Does the parapet around the roof just mean building codes or does it also Fully extend out to thou shall not murder and you need to take care of your brother and your enemy and your other

Human that's living next to you and not do things that put them in danger So like there's all these little webs within Christian nationalism that need to be hashed out

I've like I said I probably land more historically on what the Westminster and London Baptist fall upon when they say general equity

Thereof meaning we look at the civil law that was given to the Israelites. We look at the Ten Commandments We go what general equity can we pull out of that?

And I would probably 75 80 percent of what could be pulled out of that I most people that have presented things

I would agree with and say I would even say we were Like I said 75 80 percent of the way there for the first 40 years of this nation

Where we took the general equity of that and said this can be done and this can't be done even though it wasn't

Specifically stated in the Bible. We took the equity of what God was saying and said let's apply that for 1795 or 1820

Yeah So they put some comments up that we had no

So Also to really quick and just if you guys want to go look this up in 19 in the 19 teens like 1910 did like 1920 was really where we stopped enforcing blasphemy laws

They were still on the books, but publicly we stopped in endorsing those in 1965

Congress passed something I think trying to state that Muslims Jews Christian and Catholic those four or five couldn't be blasphemed against They got it passed, but still didn't enforce it and then in 2008

We just removed all blasphemy laws altogether in this country So to Aaron's point before talking about idle and blasphemy,

I really see really the turn of the early last century turn of the last century was really where things started to go off the rails when you get rid of blasphemy and I would really be interested to see

Thinking through it you with what you just said how Tim would respond to the blasphemy laws that he's against in Christian nationalism in Sharia You know in Muslim law, is he against is he against the fact that?

In Muslim law, they could kill Anybody who is from a

Muslim faith and converts to any other? That's that's punishable by death. Would he have an issue with that?

Muslim so much Well, yeah, that was one of the things we talked. He asked me Kenton.

Would you? If say a Muslim was a Muslim nationalist, would you be fine living in their nation?

And I didn't really Understand what his point was because of course not I'm a I'm a Christian.

I think Islam is is a false religion The the point that I was making is that Christianity is objectively a superior worldview to any other religion.

And that's why that's the Basis, that's the foundation for what we should write our laws and culture off of.

Okay So here was a question Jesse asked do we as Christians separate our faith from the secular world?

And then he said God forbid so he kind of answers in his view, but nailed it, you know Do but should we should we be separating those?

What do you mean by secular? I'd want to know what he means by secular Secular mean

Jesse maybe you could put that in he also said this He said Christian nationalists start from the bottom up and not top -down evangelizing the nations

I Don't know that I'd agree with that with all

Where I would land at least with that is you got to have both you have to have people in churches

Going out into their communities spreading the gospel grassroots, right people working in local elections

And things like that but you also have to have big wins like a member of the CREC being the

Secretary of Defense and so it works from both directions and It's not clean cut bottom.

It's not shout out Pete Yeah, exactly He's coming on the podcast pretty soon

Yeah, so Really quick though, I would go back to I know I keep belaboring this point, but you're saying evangelized disciple the nation's yes

You know start from the bottom up and the top down it can be yes and but look at the United States in its early

Foundings, I think it was probably the closest to the model of a Christian nation that you could have Maybe outside the first ten years of Rome in 300 if we we made, you know by definition making it a

Christian nation But they weren't practicing the Mosaic law from a federal government standpoint you had you know

I mean the King called it the Presbyterian revolt with a revolution I mean the 13 colonies every one of them was attached to either a

Baptist Presbyterian or Anglican denomination I mean you have the guys founding the country basing everything on the

Mosaic law in Religion so you you did but how did we get that?

We got that by them being evangelized at some point in their lives and converting to Christ. So it so it is kind of oh

Well, there was a lot. So I think that you had a lot of Christian influence You you clearly had even guys like, you know

Franklin and Jefferson who are deist they're not Christian but you listen to them speak in there and their speech or their writings and They're speaking more

Christian language than most Christians today. Well, that's my point You're saying they're not Christian because they're deist but their deism was was a minor part

If you read their letters a very minor part They really just honestly believe they had to have that worldview because they're like, hey,

I'm creating a country God's outside of this He's just kind of watching us do this. We need to take the reins.

That's where their deism came in Obeying the Mosaic law and you look at Madison you look at Jefferson Yeah, go read

God in government by Gary DeMar don't agree with him on his end time stuff But his God in government book on how this country was established will blow your mind when you look into the personal letters

He's founding fathers were right. Yeah, I know But when you when you look at I'm sorry, but if you look at Franklin's lifestyle, you're not gonna say he's a

Christian He was a womanizer Up until I'll jump a Christian. He's a womanizer.

You know third or marriage, you know affairs all that stuff so what I do

I do see where Greg's coming from because My sins don't define my relationship with God if they did then we very we fall into the

Layton flowers travel Recognize it's a sin like he like he yeah

Well, it's always a really his beliefs are what would define this He believed that the only way that you can be reconciled with God a that you need to be reconciled with God that he wants

To be reconciled with God. The only way you can be reconciled with God is through the blood and Jesus Christ if he's believing that and communicating along those lines, then we would be safe to say that He's a

Christian at least from our limited perspective The problem is that we don't know a lot about those guys and what they actually believed

We just know what limited things they wrote We know the terrible choices that they made but I'd be fair that people just judge me by the terrible choices

I made and didn't listen to what I said about the scriptures. They might come to the conclusion that I'm not Not only Do you sin

Brewster Yeah, I do is David and I are having a great conversation in the comments If you guys if you guys ever have a chance to like this is a this is the multi -dimensional show

What you need to do is you need to come in for the at the very first time when it's live and you just need To focus on the comments and just have a great time in there and then you just go back and you watch the show and Only focus on the show.

It's two completely different People don't realize how difficult it is to to host the show especially if I don't have a co -host that can control the comments because I'm trying to look at comments, but I can questions and things like that and You know

You see have a total separate conversation going on in chat that we end up having and for folks who may be wondering you're seeing you know

Aaron Brewster doesn't know how to chat here because he's he's actually responding to The YouTube in spot and spitting out the three different YouTube channels.

So there's probably some people going what's Aaron? Saying because we're ever David is that's the only channel where they're getting the full

Full thing. I would say Andrew really quick to I'll just throw this out there for me going from reform theology my 20s and really cage stage for probably eight or ten years and then really having my eyes open to Understanding why other people believe other things when you start looking through church history

And then really having the Holy Spirit convict you and go, you know We all believe we are the sweet spot of righteousness

We look at the man that has the crappy car and we go if he just worked a little harder Like God said hard work.

He could get what he wants And we look at the guy with the car that's nicer than us and we go all that rich snob He's just so into his physical, you know material things

We have determined we are the sweet spot of righteousness and compared to an all -holy all -righteous all -gloriful

God We are actually like menstrual rags in his sight. We are depraved. We are sinful

That's where we are compared to a holy and sovereign God. So as I've gotten older, too I've also said, you know, oh he did this and that guy did that and he and God says how about I open up the internet?

tabs History on everyone because that's how he sees us We only look at everyone and go what we can see they did publicly and God says

I can see what you did privately I can see what you thought like Christ said if you think about adultery if you think about murder in your heart

You've committed it and I found as I've gotten older to not to not to renege on my principles

Not to renege on the holiness and sovereignty of God, but also look and say just like the the borrower, right?

God has forgiven me of so much because I know the sinner. I am I have to give some grace to those

As well, I can't go and say hey I've been forgiven a million dollars from the king and then throw my brother in prison for ten dollars, you know

Yeah, I will give it a comment here to say that Aaron the guy

David you're responding to who's on dead man walking YouTube channel He says no,

I cannot sin I'm freed from it It would be fun to have him come in here and let's talk if you're sinless perfectionist, which sounds like you're you're arguing for So So Questions I asked him so you don't lust you don't manipulate you don't get impatient and then he says why are you trying to put

Me under the law. I'm not trying to put you on the law David I just asked the question do you are you ever if you were on the show with us?

Would you be tempted to anger? Would you get frustrated? Would you get you know, would you be impatient? I mean are those things not sins are those things not since when you do it

But there's sins when someone else does it like I'm just obviously I can't put all that in the comment And he just says laws laws laws

Well, yeah, because I will says those things are sin, you know I mean respectfully anyone who says they don't sin they just sin because that's a lie

It's a lie and and first John has something really significant to say about that. Just I mean, this is for John This is for David but obviously it's a good thing for all of us to remember because I found as a biblical counselor one of the hardest things is to do at James chapter 5 tells us to do and confess our sins one to another to be open and honest enough to To say to be humble enough to say

I am a sinner and this is how I said I was sitting across from my pastor recently and we were having this conversation

But in in first John, it specifically says that if we say that we have no sin, we're a liar

So so David, I'm not calling you a liar, but I mean I am I'm calling you a liar, but above and beyond that John on the inspiration of the

Holy Spirit is saying that you're a liar if you say that you have no sin. So Those would make that argument say that believe that and like kind of hyper grace and what would you call it earlier

Andrew? Sinless perfectionism. Yeah sinless perfectionism. They would say

John is talking about before coming to Christ Correct filled with Holy Spirit. That's that's their argument that one is one of the things is

And they the lot of it is they focus on first John and there's a reason for that First John we have to understand

So this is part of hermeneutics, right the the context would first John what he's trying to write about is the issue of Gnosticism as it's coming in the church and arguing that anything physical is

Bad, but anything spiritual is good. So they would they would have actually the Gnostics would eventually deny the humanity of Christ but except the deity of Christ and so John they mean these people are people that would go and sleep with a prostitute and say it's okay

That there's no problem sleeping with a prostitute because you're you have faith

In fact, let me let me just play for for those who haven't been haven't heard this show before We had a guy who came in and and made that exact argument.

I was but here Well, we'll just play this clip from a previous show Are you saying that someone a believer can go sleep with a prostitute and it wouldn't be right or wrong because he's not

Under the law anymore is so if he if he sleeps with a prostitute, but has faith in doing it, then it's okay

Yeah, it's okay Okay, I'm gonna ask this again because I want to make sure that I heard you correctly

Yeah, it's okay. It would be as long as you have faith You can do that Wow, okay

You're saying that as long as we have faith Even what we do in faith is not sin

Yes No, so it's this is That is big daughter. Like I was really trying to be clear

So this is the argument that this is the type of thinking John's dealing with so yes

John is very black and white in first John. It's like it's light or it's darkness. There's no in -between.

There's no gray and He's doing that because of who he's responding to and if you if you ignore that then you have trouble with that book because You're gonna start reading into it as many sinless perfectionists do is saying well, no, we can't have any sin

Well, is that the sin that you're thinking of, you know lying stealing? Is that the sin that he's talking about?

In that culture in that time to those people no he's talking he's talking to people that say they're believers and they can as that guy just said and they can even sleep with a

Prostitute and it wouldn't be sin That's what he's addressing So, yeah, yeah, yeah very quickly to it's like once you latch on to understanding a good hermeneutic it is so So such a blessing when you start reading through the

Bible and you go Oh, there's things where scripture interprets scripture and the context of things and why was that person?

Why were they writing to them? What was the culture at the time? What did the Jews believe at the time? You know, I was just going through a study with someone telling me

I'll tell you a really quick story and you'll find this funny someone Said oh Mike sent in a group message.

Oh my gosh Trump forgot to swear and put his hand on the Bible and another one of my friends said well that's good because Jesus said never swear an oath and I actually think it's better and and the fact that he didn't do that now

He's not you know, it's not unbearable So I go into this deep dive with him and I go Do you understand who

Christ was talking to when he's talking about swearing a promissory? Transactional oath when he's telling people you

Jewish people have heard It said swear an oath to God and then you would have these convoluted

Promissory oaths to where you would technically be able to get out of doing what you said you were going to do

But you didn't technically You know, you know go against the the wording of the oath that you made

These were these transactional weird almost like you know What I mean like two attorneys battling in their contracts back and forth and Christ said no don't swear an oath like that Don't swear to God because God's God and don't swear it on earth because that's his footstool and that belongs to him

Just let your yes be your yes and your no be or no the character of not breaking the Ninth Commandment Let that be your oath, right?

And he went oh, I've never heard anyone say it that way and I go That's because there's there's so much context behind that right like you're

Jewish Andrew You understand he's talking to Jewish people understanding what an oath was how they used it in business how they use it daily life

What when he says that what he's what he's meaning by it, but we as American Christians and English speakers

We just kind of read that really quick kind of what like Tim did about rich people, right? This context of oh all rich people are bad because he said something about being rich is horrible

Well, what about the 15 to 20 other verses about wise men leaving wealth to their children and their children's children and and God talking about Well, yes wealth is is not inherently evil right built be having billions of dollars

But I digress my whole point was it's a beautiful thing to understand context. Well, yeah One of the things is you know, so Tim Tim did this you you ended up You know pointing this out it's the the the thing is what you have people do is and Tim explained this when we first started the show and we talked about progressive

Christian and it's it's he and he said this later as His hermeneutic is to his culture is gonna read in he uses culture to understand the scripture

That's the problem with his hermeneutic So he gives that he gives the scripture and this is you know,

Aaron I think you asked the question of you know to him saying, you know, are there multi? You know, is there one interpretation is what you're trying to get to there's one interpretation many applications to scripture

But see he's gonna say that it changes over time and and and culture is what defines it.

That's not how you Yeah using culture to find the Bible's like straining your water through a dirty diaper.

It's like what are you doing? That's you got it the wrong way around Yeah, I mean, well, it's here's the thing if you're when you do that You're then giving it new meanings,

I mean this is but remember where he's at with his liberalism, right? I mean, that's what they want to do with the Constitution.

They want they want judges that called a living document So they they want to reinterpret it with today's culture rather than say what did it mean at the time?

This is what they end up doing. So you're you're Effectively changing the meaning by giving it new definitions and new meanings with the current culture ignoring

The context in which is written. That's the wrong way to do any kind of interpretation exactly and progressives do that all the time and the fundamental understanding that's baked into that is we're better and smarter and more evolved than they are than they are and So if we look at the

First Amendment and we can't ask ourselves the question. How did the founders? Justify having the

First Amendment, but at the same time having blasphemy laws Instead of that we interpret the

First Amendment under our own understanding in 2025 America instead of going back and seeing what was the intention of the founders when when writing these things

Yeah, and I think it's a lot of hot water. Let me let me do this and and for folks who may be new here

I mean what we do on apologetics lives as you saw we try to we do apologetics You saw that with our discussion with Tim We try to explain apologetics as you saw when

I'd stop and explain why and we do that I and it's it is kind of fun when I get someone that I'm debating and they come in start discussing something and I'll explain

Exactly what they're gonna do as I did in the beginning where I said, he's good You know, he uses the projection and then and then

Aaron's pointing out how he was doing exactly that right? And so We do this so you guys can spot the behavior so you could see so when you're are

Using apologetics you can you can spot things I want to play a clip from the from the debate because can can can you did this to him in the debate?

Let me remove the banner so we could see your face though So I want to play and I don't know if I have it exactly right

But in the debate you you called him out for his behavior or something. He did in the so let's listen

I Should slow it down because I listen at the fastest speed possible and most people can't handle that.

All right, here we go. It's Interesting how you you take the Let me back this up longer so we get his comment

Could you give me Back then what made America a Christian nation?

Was it when we had race -based shadow slavery? Was it when we had Jim Crow laws? And then what was the moment or time in American history where we cease to be

Christian and what was the reason for that? so I think it's

Interesting how you you take the hmm What is perceived as the worst parts of our history and you impose that on the entire thing?

but I would say that every or almost every founder of this nation

Subscribed to Christian beliefs King George even called the American Revolution one time the press so I mean no offense

We knew that your answer wasn't the important part of this But so I just want to point out you see how how

Kennington? recognized in in the debate In his response, what's he doing?

He's pointing out exactly the behavior that he saw Tim doing right

Tim's Tim's In his question. Did you see how his question was a setup? Are you at what point was this a

Christian nation with the slavery that any the cattle slavery all the things? They're perceived to be the worst things

In it's kind of interesting because you know he argues for that and Maybe he'll come back in and we could discuss slavery and we'll see how little he knows about the

Christian or the biblical view of slavery because most people think of it as the same as cattle slavery and it's not

But I think I think he did a good job there and that's something I wanted I I at least wanted to get to that one part of the debate because Kenton what you did there is something that people should do especially when they're having a formal debate

Well, you guys it was not really formal. It's a little less formal more discussion, but You you didn't fall for the bait.

Look if you're watching and the clip I wanted to get and I'll just say there's a There's a

Canadian running for Prime Minister right now that a candidate for Prime Minister Just go and look at the the video where he is

He is being challenged with gender The reporter says, you know, do you believe you know, would you support you know?

Donald Trump just said there's only a male and female genders if you if you're elected Would you would you agree with making a same rule and the guy?

What is that question that question is the same as what Tim did to you Kenton? It's it's baiting you right?

It's a setup question And where any answer you give is is a problem? And so what did he do the prime the candidate had then challenged his premise in that question, right?

How many genders are there then? You're the one bringing up the two genders then I'm a challenge the premise you're making that there's more than two

How many are there? Yeah, and that's and that's what I wanted to point out that Kenton did that We need to learn to do don't give into it

What the the guy says, well, there's other genders. He says well name them. I only know of two

I know male and female. What other genders are you talking about? And the guy just goes well, well, I identify as a male

He's like that doesn't matter you you mentioned other genders. What are they? Tell me what they are and I could respond to him and You know and this is the same guy by the way

If you've ever seen the video of the guy that's chewing the apples, they're like, you know People say you're this horrible guy.

He's like what people he just keeps eating the apple, which is the classic part but What Kenton did there was not take the bait.

He called out the behavior I notice how you're trying to make it the worst possible thing and then he just goes on to to to make the comment

Learn from what he did Right, so we don't fall in don't take the bait when people do that when they give you these setup questions like that Because that is designed

And I don't know if Tim really like there's some people who do that behavior on purpose for debate tactics

I don't know if Tim is doing it for that reason. Okay, just for the record Well also knowing knowing what

I know now about what Tim thinks about sin nature and depravity I would have said well What do you mean? No ever no one's born into sin.

It's the individual. We're not enemies of God Right, yeah, exactly. Why is everyone why is there slavery?

Why is there child sacrifice? Why is there any of this stuff then? well, see and that's why I wanted to start with that from on this show when he did come in because I Really think you know

Kenton asked something about it. And this that right there is what is this the big difference between in that debate that you guys had

Because you have a regenerate person and an unregenerate person The reason why I would say that is because one person's understanding the gospel and one's redefining the gospel.

I mean if you can show me where Jesus said You know give allegiance to me because I think what he said is repent and believe

I think that was the wording that he used and You know, it was really clear

But You know, there were there were a couple things that Greg I know you you had

I mean, I know you I don't know with a little bit of time there We've left I know we I had the clip that I want to play of where he says

Loving your enemies is not putting them in prison and we talked about a that a bit tonight

Is that really I just have a real problem with the redefinition of love over the last 50 to 60 years

West in the Western world I mean, we've convoluted it and diluted it so much that we don't even understand what love is, right?

Love isn't letting someone do whatever they want. Love includes justice being served Love that love includes discipline punishment all those different things.

And unfortunately, we have this blanket blanket term of love I'm not saying anything new here. We've been talking about this for a long time

But unfortunately, that was Tim what Tim was doing in the Christian national argument is using this blanket term of love

Meaning nice right like what you don't want to be nice to people. Well God never calls us to be nice and he doesn't call us to be fair He calls us to love and he calls us to justice and he and be just with people and those are two totally different things

Biblical justice and biblical love are not what is espoused within you can call it liberal progressive leftist kind of Christianity And it's very detrimental anyone who's a parent or has any type of authority over another person in any way shape or form

Understands the term tough love right? It's not necessarily what your flesh wants to do It's the thing that is right to do and justice being served under Christian nationalism would be just that it would be a form of love

It's justice. We have it now. We have a justice system that says if you commit a crime We there's going to be things that happen to you and in some states it is death if the crime is heinous enough, right?

Now whether you agree or disagree with the death penalty Biblically or not you can argue that but I'm saying is we've all agreed as a society under already this big

Christian principle rule that there are consequences for actions, right?

And also I would I would like to point out the Mosaic Law of the punishment fitting the crime

When you know when the Jews came out of the desert and they went in the civilized world looked around and said wait

What are you talking about I for an eye tooth for a tooth and they said oh the punishment has to fit the crime meaning

You steal a piece of bread. Yeah, I don't cut off your arm You steal a piece of bread you pay the man for a day of his wages, right?

God's Mosaic Law and the Jews came out of the desert was so radical to the ancient world of wait a minute

So you're telling me that there's mercy even in the punishment. There's mercy in God's law when he says no, no, no, don't over punish don't over discipline

It's I for an eye a tooth for a tooth meaning let the crap let the punishment Meet the crime and the crime meet the punishment

I think that we we've carried that over in the United States in our justice system, right?

We have different levels of murder. We have different levels of homicide and killing just because of that So, I don't know

I'm taking up too much time here but justice being served as a form of love and I also don't like that we just kind of look at the

Ten Commandments and just we don't get into the nuance of of how Revolutionary the

Mosaic Law was in the Old Testament 6 ,000 years ago. There was nothing like it before or after and we've based civilizations on it for the last 6 ,000 years.

I was just on a podcast and talking about some what you were just saying because the person was asking about how responding to homosexuals and It was interesting because I refer to this as a cult or a false gospel of God is love

And I really fault the gospel track that you know, it says God has a wonderful plan for your life. He loves you it's like God has a human shaped hole in his heart, you know, and just you are to fill it and People define love is

God should give me everything. I want God should spoil me Well, would you be a good parent if you let your kids just eat whatever they want?

No, because your kids are gonna eat a bunch of junk food and then have health problems the rest of their life You'd call that abuse and so yeah, that's not good

So let's let's go around let folks know where they could get to know more about you Kenton How could folks get a hold of you if they want to talk

Christian nationalism and maybe have you on a show or? debate you on it the

Hopefully someone that's not progressive The quickest place is gonna be X Kenton little seven

I think is my tag I'm on YouTube as well under monarch ministries, but I'm not super active on there and then

If you DM me on on X, I'll send you a link to the monarch ministries discord channel

Which is we do Bible studies there. Sometimes I post a question of the day. It's a good community there if you want to join up there

All right Greg dead man walking podcast, you know, you know, it's two hours later

He never admitted whether he's actually a friend. Just saying I Was saving it for the very last minute, of course

Andrew you are both good friends First of all, I have to say I love the dynamic of you two hosting hosting and co -hosting

This apologetics live. It's very cool. I think you guys should keep doing it I think you two hooking up and kind of your cross

Polynesian of your ministries and stuff too is it's pretty cool to see and I think you guys both bring something unique and different to Striving for eternity org.

Absolutely. Love that organization and everything you're doing over there. Andrew. You got the book up there, too What do we believe?

Hey is my code still good? Can they still go buy that book and get me shipping if they if they get if they want what do we believe and they?

Use your code, which is MW dead men walking DMW put it in free shipping.

All right shipping on me So go pick up that book because that's an awesome book that uh, where did

I put it? I have around here somewhere Should have had it with me. But anyway, yeah, you can buy me a DMW pod

Did you get a hard copy didn't you? Yeah, like Five that we ever made and it's signed

It's gonna be worth money one day when when Andrew gets assassinated or something First for saying some crazy stuff in a street corner open air or something.

Oh Sorry, that was that was really dark at the end But really quick DMW podcast comm is where you can find out more about me real

DMW Podcasts for X and then dead men walking podcast everywhere else That's the only one

X wouldn't let me have that one but dead men walking podcast Ephesians to dead in our trespasses now live in Christ Come check us out weekly podcast have all kinds of fun guests on and we will be a live

Podcasting from the dangerous friends conference in Monteclova, Ohio where Calvin Robinson just got kicked out

He's not talking anymore, but we will have Steve Dace. We will have Seth Gruber. We sub

Jamie Brambach. He's coming in from Ireland We're gonna have a lot of Rosaria Butterfield that James White and Andrew knows very well

We're gonna have those guys speaking. So come see me if you're in the Midwest March 13th and 14th there. Thanks So dead man walking is a great podcast to be listening to You should actually see what why didn't they let you have that that on X when it was

Twitter? Someone already had it and it's a site. So I don't know I can't you can't because it's

But when you type it in at dead men walking podcast, it's not it's not there. So I don't know

But that was before Elon took over. So maybe Yeah, well

Aaron knows them so maybe I could talk to busy throwing up Nazi symbols Oh Aaron or Elon I didn't think you love it.

I mean I Yeah, I got in trouble with my family about that it's actually kind of funny so my daughter

We're we're we're my family's very Caucasian exceptionally Roof in July.

Okay. Well Yeah, exactly because we my wife and I were certain that we would give birth to vampires with transparent skin

But my wife my daughter just decided to learn German Which I studied in college.

So the two of us walking around speaking German. Sometimes I'm like, maybe this is a bad idea Okay, okay so fun story so so Well, I had my now son -in -law before they were my daughter got married

Was living in our house for it for the summer and What we're sitting there and over dinner one day.

I realized that if she marries this guy I just we're at dinner and I went oh no

And everyone looked at me and they're like what I said, I just realized something like what I said if you guys actually get married you're marrying a

German and He's like, yeah, I said and even worse your initials are gonna be

SS Nice You allow it the wedding's off Yeah, well, you know

By the way, Greg, that was very kind words of you To to to say they're about the dynamic that we have.

I really I want you know before you signed off I really appreciate that. That was very kind. Thank you I mean it.

Hey, can Aaron give a shout out there? Yeah, I said earlier on the show go to evermindministries .com

And there you can see all the various ministries that are part of that truth Love family the year -long celebration of God my speaking schedules are there and things like that You can get my new book quit which isn't as cool as the digital one that Andrew's got there

I just hold mine up like this Quit as a book all about how to stop family strife for good conflict in your family

I'm gonna be speaking actually in two upcoming homeschool conferences. I'm actually really excited about that I'm gonna be speaking at the thrive conference in Winston -Salem,

North Carolina I'm also gonna be speaking at the great homeschool convention or conference. I can't remember which one that is

GHC down in Greenville, South Carolina So I'm really looking forward to that. I'll be doing that GHC in March and the great the thrive conference in In Winston -Salem that one's gonna be happening in May and I'll just say to that the thrive one if you guys are in anywhere near that area get there because a friend of mine renton

Rathbun who's a head over the world of you Program at Bob Jones University The worldview

Center he does such an amazing amazing job I might just not do my session so I can go to listen to whatever it is

He's saying so if you guys are in that area, I definitely make it a point to come out there, especially if you're homeschoolers and just before Since Aaron we're still focusing on Aaron I'm just gonna put this up here and remind folks that they can support the

Brewsters at Gibson go comm slash SFE SFE stands for striving fraternity

For folks who don't know maybe it's your first time here listening but Aaron was affected by the

Hurricane there in North Carolina. I know no one cares about that because there's you know Hollywood types are losing million -dollar homes and you know, they're insured.

So, you know, that's all that matters is that you know but but Aaron had a

Lot of loss we ended up through this through those who had supported we were able to replace his

HVAC system we have been able to raise a little bit more money to help with the basically a guy get rid of all the mold and and all the water damage that is gonna cost a lot of money and then

There's vehicles the RV where his son lived is gone and cars and things like that so if you can help support a fellow

Christian who is Devoted himself to the Christian ministry to the point that he moved in with his parents

So he could be full -time counseling and and serving God through the different ministries he's involved in He's made that sacrifice which means he doesn't have the money to since they weren't insured for the hurricane

This is all the only real means he's got to to repay all this. So if you guys can help him out, it's give send go dot -com

Slash SFE that will get you there. So I want to just encourage that you guys might consider doing that also

Hoping that hmm. I'll put this out and put Greg on the on the spot here I think that I think that I really think

Greg since he's got the he's gonna be around Since the other conference that we were supposed to be at got canceled.

He should come to the Build to conquer conference.

I Really think hey, look I could talk to Caleb and get you as the MC. I'm sure because that would be really good

But it's looking like it's gonna be a great conference it is in Bartsville, Oklahoma Some great speakers and and you go.

Oh, I may not know these names Well, you may not but I'll tell you some of these that I have preached alongside

Michael Stanton There's also their Brett Baggett who

I've preached with who's great Gabe I've never heard preach but he is a wonderful guy

I got to speak with him a lot, but I Would argue you want to come for Brandon scoff and if you've never heard

Brandon preach Brandon is an outstanding Preacher I he is one of my top 10 favorite preachers so I Put him up on a high up there.

If you've never heard him preach This would be a great way to get to to come and he gets some great preaching.

So The website is it's part of the the Caleb Gordon show. He's very creative with his names

The the Caleb Gordon show so his website is Caleb Gordon org Mm -hmm he's as bad as my friend

Justin Peters who is Justin Peters ministry and It's late it's been a long day it's late just yeah

So if you guys could get to the the build to conquer conference I'm trying to see if I could talk dead men walking here

Greg more into coming to it But here's the incentive Greg if you come

You will get to see we're we're planning Caleb Gordon said that if I get a cold plunge down there he will get in a cold plunge and Um Shepherd is planning to go and he says he will do a cold plunge

But but only if Brandon scoff will so now I got to convince Brandon to get into a cold plunge

So we are I am thinking like let's see if these guys can handle five minutes in 40

If I could come down there, let's talk offline about that I see the dates down there I got to check my calendar but I can get down over there and you can get those two in a cold plunge then

I'll Do a cold plunge There we go. All right The cold plunge challenge.

So it is shaping up. I think that's gonna be a great conference. It's a one -day conference So especially if you're local to Oklahoma there to Bartsville, Oklahoma within a day's drive

Great price great great event looking to that. It's shaping up. So I hope that you would come out for that With that I want to I want to thank

Kenton if you want to come out any other time have any discussion The show is always open to anyone to come in.

I mean, that's what we do here every week we're here to answer questions whether it's in chat or Live and it's always fun as you see tonight where Tim came in I actually didn't think

Tim was gonna come in based on the Twitter exchange are they the I was a little surprised that he showed up Yeah, I I wasn't

I wasn't I think I think he likes to debate and I know that but So, yeah, he's

He's a really nice guy. Okay, even though we would disagree very much You know, and and I think he's gonna be in hell for eternity if he doesn't repent he would disagree but It's being nice.

It's nice to warn someone Something like that, but uh next week

I mentioned earlier, you know if I knew about the the muting Greg I posted a thing on X just a poll.

It was just a poll a simple poll Asking what people believe all millennial ism

Post -millennial ism pre -millennial ism. Yeah Full preterists went nuts and he were all over it and so we uh, we said that you know, what would you be willing to debate the topic and Well, you know as typical a bunch of people said they'll debate it and then one by one they backed out

But they all called another guy in some guy Michael Sullivan to come and do a debate and I said good I got

Sam Frost and they were like, oh, he's a coward. He's running from me I'm not gonna do it with him because he's running from a debate for me.

I'm wait Here's here's the opportunity it's kind of back to that text exchange with with Tim, right?

Have an adult conversation. No, they backed out and so I ended up once they backed out and said they weren't

Didn't back out. Did he? Oh, no, Sam said do it Sam Actually Sam actually when I told him he went on to the the thing just to say

I've never backed out of a debate With Michael and I'm here to debate. Let's do it. So You know, but you kind of know the quality

I kind of realized the quality when this guy Michael who was their big debater Wanted me to and Greg you'll laugh at this.

He wanted me to defend Millennialism and I said, why should I defend on millennialism?

Well, you made the claim. You should defend your view What did I start laughing just putting a pole out there?

Well, it means you're on millennial. Thank you very much He thinks I'm on millennial and I'm like, why would

I defend a position? I don't hold to he's like Well, you put the pole out and the pole doesn't take a position nor does it make a claim?

So he's so then someone this was classic some woman who she wanted to debate me but in writing and I you know,

I'm like, yeah I don't I don't debate women because you shouldn't be teaching the Bible in the first place to men. So just get over that But she actually goes to our website.

It's driving for attorney org She pulls up the link for what we believe our doctrinal statement posts it

And then says that I'm not all mill. I'm post mill You're like you got you had three chances

Strikes She's saying she read my doctoral statement that says

I'm pre mill You need to clarify your doctrinal statement there I can't

Obviously, it's obviously Andrew's fault. I mean Andrew Carefully consider how you communicate

Different people interpret the doctrinal statement differently doesn't that mean that the doctrinal statement is wrong? Yeah. Well, we can't trust it.

That's for sure I mean, I think I just need to read his doctrinal statement and really think about what I feel and believe about it

I don't think we wrote it at all Yeah, you gotta love keyboard cowboys, right they're all out there

I actually had a woman who contacted the ministry and told me what

I believed and I'm like, I don't believe that and I directed her to the doctrinal statement and she actually said you're hiding your real beliefs

I know you and I'm like, we've never met. We've never taught like Okay, you know what?

I believe better than me. Okay. Yeah, you're not nuts, but we are gonna have Sam Frost and Jeremiah, oh,

I just drew a blank on his last name Yes Yeah from the

Dog and so they're gonna come on we're gonna talk full preterism and hopefully the others will come in Maybe now that you've told me

I can mute people I'll unblock them so I could tell them that they could show up and then I'll mute them.

So I don't have this Well, that will be next

Thursday night So we will do that. That's the show for next Thursday Folks if you liked having

Greg in here, let us know maybe we could bring him in. We mean we could you know Coax them in more often, you know

She likes watching us get into the debate and standing back That's my fan base

Well, I will say one last thing and that is over Greg's right shoulder Is something very special here that we would have

Your right shoulder I'm saying your right shoulder your right shoulder and if he goes down you will see that he's got some squirrely

Joe's coffee there that bag of Coffee that he's got two of them right there And so squirrely

Joe's coffee is one of the sponsors here. If you want to get some great coffee I suggest driving for eternity org

Slash coffee and you can get what with the purple one. I don't I'm not sure what that is.

Which one is that? This is the guacamole bean What is it called though?

This one is because they all have a name. Yeah, it says it right out front. I Forget which we

Big lettering wisdom It's the biggest words there the squirrely

Joe's maybe and so It could be compassion there

Which you could see that Greg hasn't drank any compassion. And so that's why he's

I keep this one full because I like to be a real jerk So squirrely

Joe's is not only a great coffee, but you're supporting a Christian family So go to striving for hearing org slash coffee use the promo code

SFE I don't know they either it's either 20 % off for your first of your first purchase or You're getting a free bag of coffee with your first purchase

Don't remember which one because I think he changed it on us, but it's one of those so go check that out And and do us a favor every time you reorder just go to striving for attorney org slash coffee

So that Joe knows you heard about it here from us. So I hope you guys enjoy the show a lot of fun fireworks

I love I know this is messed up, but I love when guys like Tim come in and we just have those kind of, you know, somewhat heated not really heated but but Good discussions where we can disagree passionate.

That'd be a great word for it We can we can have those kind of discussions. Those are good and healthy to do

As long as you're not getting, you know into name -calling and all that, but that's what we're here to do That's what we try to do each week is to educate you guys give you guys some different ways to help you in your apologetics

Hope that you got some value out of that and just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God And we'll see you next time.