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Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Greetings welcome to the dividing line gonna be a crazy one today. It's all rich Pierce's fault It was gonna be pretty straightforward.

00:40

Just live call -in today But no rich rich got a little uppity today and decided that he's going to be

00:48

Taking zoom calls. I don't know how this works We are actually having

00:54

I was actually having to reinstall the phone application And I was just happy to have that But hey look, you know phones

01:05

You know, I mean we were using phones when they were still attached to a wall, you know

01:10

And there'd have to be this wire thing, you know, and so I guess from his perspective that's just too too much too much a reminder of just how old we are, especially him and So he wants to go with the techie stuff.

01:24

So Evidently, there is a zoom link in the A &O ministry

01:31

Twitter feed and Therefore you can What okay.

01:38

Okay. So this is how this is gonna show brought to you by rich Hi Jack, there we go.

01:43

That's that. So this is how this is gonna work. You just simply follow the link on Twitter and when you hook up it's gonna ask for your name and put your first name in and then dash and then to put the

01:56

Topic that you want to talk about in there. That's gonna tell me because unfortunately I can't actually talk to you while you're holding or in the waiting room

02:04

But it's gonna put you in the waiting room and I'm gonna look and go. Hey, that looks interesting James talk to this guy and I'm gonna put you on the air.

02:10

Okay, so we're gonna try this first time and take it slow And see we're not so we're not taking any on the regular phone line.

02:18

Oh, we we have a couple of those guys there, too I gotta go them not according to mine. We don't Well, you might want to log back in Because I've got

02:30

I've got three here. Well, that's that's that's great because There's there's nothing on my end at all

02:41

So maybe did you reset it or something? I don't know. I did not I reset nothing So, but you know, we do have some some zoom guys ready to go here but sort of They're not following instructions very well

02:59

Oops All right, so I'm gonna I'm okay. There you are. Yep. Boom. There you go

03:04

Well, that's not good that it just sort of disconnects you like that. Yeah Which is why you know the old analog tech

03:13

Are you having issues with Mac not liking the system here

03:20

All right, well, we'll see we'll see if this works there's there's no names or anything or topics on stack on this end

03:28

Okay, so I'll yeah, I haven't had a chance to screen them yet. I'm you know, a few balls in the air over here

03:33

Okay, so okay, but I'm about to send you a message here. So, okay. Well, I'll give you a give you a few moments

03:39

But you're gonna have to be doing the video too, so Yeah, hey you're making it much more complicated for yourself then then

03:50

I need to be but that's okay So while Rich is doing his thing

03:56

I want to Briefly very briefly a

04:02

Video came and I just saw on Twitter that there's another one that was just posted by bad preacher clips

04:11

Which I haven't even had an opportunity to to listen to or look at or anything here and and of course

04:20

I hate about Twitter I it was just there a second ago and Now it's gone.

04:25

I you know you you you scroll and all I find is

04:31

Adam Schiff acting like it that we are we are this nation is run by Some of the most incompetent

04:42

Weird strange people I've ever seen in my life. There's just no choice But anyway, so there's another one that has been posted that I cannot find for their love nor money now and That's just sort of how it works.

04:57

So let me look here real quick and maybe I can find it real quick Uh Yeah, so 29 minutes ago

05:07

Another one from Pastor Brandon Bowser was posted and I haven't even had a chance to listen to it so I'll just run through this really really quickly while you all are queuing up on the on the phones and on zoom and This may all just burn to the ground

05:28

This This could be one of those that ends up on YouTube as hey You remember that webcast where everything just collapsed and and we never heard from either

05:39

James Rich again Yeah, they tried to do a little bit too much anyway, so we've got a another

05:48

IFB King James only is out there doing his thing and And This is just a two -minute little thing so that way we can do it quickly but I just wanted to I Just felt badly for the young guy.

06:04

He's he's He does have a nice beard so he can't be super young super super young But I I saw somewhere he was a youth minister and I always feel for youth ministers

06:19

I Won't go into that particular discussion right now, but anyway, he's attempting to tell people about biblical history and Just had some had some real problems

06:34

Getting it getting it all straight. So I want to help provide some correction. So let's let's listen to what he has to say

06:41

I'll stop and start and we'll We'll then go to your calls

06:50

Okay, there's our first whoops I'm sorry.

06:56

I didn't get the audio on that. Yeah, I know Okay Yeah, here's the problem first thing meeting zoom quit zoom

07:15

So I cannot be in zoom or that will happen. So let it be on the record.

07:20

That was not my fault You said that if I went in there, maybe I could see stuff, but I can't and so there we go

07:27

So there's first thing and then the the second thing evidently is that you need

07:34

That I hope Well, we'll see if it works. Let's try it again. Like I said, we're trying to do a lot today

07:40

Let's talk about where the King James Bible came from and where every other version came from.

07:47

Okay, there's two different texts Greek texts Greek and Hebrew texts that that every single

07:54

Bible in Modern that we use modernly came from. Okay, first correction.

08:00

He says Greek and Hebrew texts. That's simply not true The Texas Receptus is not a Hebrew text

08:05

The Texas Receptus is is a Greek text. This is what most people call the Texas Receptus There is no one

08:12

Texas Receptus This is Scrivener's Edition based upon the

08:18

King James translation, but there is no one TR But this is what most people are thinking of and it's

08:23

English. There is no Hebrew in it there the difference between What would be considered the standard

08:31

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia today? And what was used at the time the

08:37

King James I I think adds up to exactly eight differences Between them they're pretty much identical to one another

08:46

So that's first first correction. The Texas Receptus is Greek only it is not Greek and Hebrew every

08:53

Bible either came from the Texas Receptus who was written by Erasmus or the

08:58

Okay, the Texas Receptus is not something that's written by someone When you have a

09:04

Greek text where you are using multiple Manuscripts as he did so you know as many as this guy's gonna say but multiple manuscripts as he did

09:12

You're you're compiling You're editing You're not writing and he's later gonna use term translated

09:22

That's not it either So he he was actually Working on a diglot and his emphasis initially in the first few editions was upon the

09:35

Latin Because that's where there was a little more danger in that because he was altering the Vulgate text and the

09:40

Vulgate was considered the Sort of the official text of the church. And so that was pretty dangerous to do But it's not written by somebody and of course, even the one that we have today also went through editing by Stephanos and especially by Theodore Beza, so None of that terminology would be would be accurate

09:58

Sinaiticus and Vaticanus who which was written by Westcott and Hort. Okay, so Here again is

10:05

King James only us especially who will Read Bergh on or what's what's worst with King James only folks is they read someone who read someone who read someone who read someone?

10:16

and by the time it gets down to that level you get this kind of Almost gibberish where it just doesn't make any sense anymore

10:25

But like I keep saying these guys are a hundred years behind The the modern, you know, here's here's modern

10:35

Greek text Is the Tyndale House New Testament? this this is not just a reproduction of Sinaiticus and Vaticanus and Especially when you look at at ECM which is still being produced but Mark and Acts and the general epistles route

10:55

You have Thousands of manuscripts that are that are being utilized by by these

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These these texts and so the the idea that it's just Sinaiticus Vaticanus Totally ignoring the papyri totally ignoring when the papyri

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Key texts like John 118 where where p66 and p75 have demonstrated that the readings found in Sinaiticus of Vaticanus are extremely

11:23

Ancient and early back to the beginning of the other first century That this kind of this kind of material just is it's completely lost these folks just don't know

11:35

What this is all about because they're they're reading somebody who read somebody who read something who read something from from Dean Bergan In at the end of the of the 19th century and they're literally over a hundred years

11:48

Behind where things actually are and so their descriptions just Have no connection to reality at all.

11:56

Now. First, let's talk about the Texas Receptus The King James Bible is the only current

12:01

English Bible that comes from the Texas Receptus Which is causing All the poor good men who who worked so hard on the

12:12

New King James Version of the Bible To go, hey, what about us?

12:19

No, that the King James is not the well, you could make you could make an argument There is no way that he knows this is

12:26

Scrivener. Okay, first of all But you you could make the argument that at least as far as this is concerned.

12:33

This is based on the King James so But no the the the New King James Likewise is is based upon the

12:41

Texas Receptus as its base text So yeah, no now here's a little bit about the

12:47

TR the Texas Receptus Erasmus the way he translated the

12:53

TR was he gathered approximately five thousand Manuscripts of Scripture, I mean he

13:01

I mean he gathered them far and wide everywhere he could Erasmus right now is very happy He Erasmus is like yay

13:14

I did Again this does illustrate something that I think is somewhat important and and that is that The work that we can do today where you literally can catalog almost 5 ,800 fragments of the

13:33

New Testament and know where they are and and Massive collation work has been done for the

13:39

ECM the CBGM databases things like that But that could only have happened in the past 20 years

13:46

It could not have happened before that Information technology was not such that would allow the collation and the collecting of all that much information in fact, you know people think about Trigellus Tischendorf they think about some of those early texts and how how few

14:07

Manuscripts were actually involved and then you look at the the work that Hasker did on Revelation And that was the first at the time anyways complete collation of one book and then of course more discoveries are made and it's no longer a complete collation, but the point is

14:25

Erasmus had Between six and twelve manuscripts not five thousand There was no place in the world

14:33

No one in the world in Erasmus's day had any earthly idea how many

14:38

Greek Manuscripts still existed at that point. Some of those Greek manuscripts have been destroyed by fire flood war since then and many others have been found that were not known at that time and so The only guess

14:55

I can I can take because again, he's got some notes over here on his right hand side My guess is he's again.

15:03

You heard somebody say something who said something who said something and you're three or four You know steps down the road now and things start getting muddled and confused

15:13

My guess is he's heard someone say that the Textus Receptus Represents the

15:21

Byzantine text type which it does generally it's not the best. It's not the earliest form of the

15:26

Byzantine It's not even the best form. It's it's sort of one Thread of the

15:34

Byzantine text type from that's really based in like the 12th century or so so it's really not even the best representative of the

15:42

Byzantine by by any standard, but He probably heard somebody say that the

15:47

Byzantine represents, you know 5 ,000 of the 5 ,800 manuscripts and so he somehow

15:55

Not having obviously read any of Erasmus or anything like that Hasn't hasn't read

16:00

Erasmus complaining about how many manuscripts he thought he'd find in Basel, Switzerland in the library

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And he didn't find and so on and so forth He's probably conflating all this stuff together and saying oh if it represents 5 ,000 then then

16:14

Erasmus had 5 ,000. Can you imagine a single person? Collating 5 ,000 manuscripts

16:22

We we've got some of the best computing power in the world working on it and and still we haven't actually done that In a in a total fashion.

16:31

I mean the ECMs could be close to that but but one guy who Complained that as he stood working on what what he did do with his 6 to 12 manuscripts at most

16:43

Was complaining that the fleas were biting him and that they were actually demons. Yeah. No The very idea that you could do five that could collate 5 ,000 manuscripts at that time

16:55

Gives you an idea of what's really going on and everywhere. He could find them He he gathered he compiled about 5 ,000 different manuscripts

17:02

And what he did was he compared every single one of them every Single one of them we are talking it would take one person three four lifetimes to actually do that to any any meaningful any meaningful level and he had help with this, of course and He found about 2 % of them didn't line up together didn't match

17:27

Identically and so what he did with those 200 % or those 2 % was he threw the 2 % out which obviously human error

17:34

And and corruption, obviously there would be a percentage of them that that didn't line up but okay, so I think what's happening here is he's he's hearing well, yeah the the

17:46

Older texts quote -unquote Alexandrian texts so and so forth only represent like 2 % and so Erasmus identified

17:53

Erasmus had no earthly idea about any of that stuff none There's the you you

18:00

If you say he did prove it There was no way on the small number of manuscripts

18:05

He had that he could have identified text types and and any of that kind of stuff. This is pure mythology based on ignorance of The historical sources and and stuff like that But then this is gets repeated over and over and over again.

18:22

And once you get three or four steps down the road It Starts getting a little rancid every but but that 98 % of the 5 ,000 manuscripts that he got which contained the whole

18:33

Bible Notice notice the whole Bible. So now now poor

18:38

Erasmus man. This guy never slept. He never ate You know He's doing the whole

18:43

Bible He's he's doing he's doing the Old Testament too. So he had Old Testament manuscripts somehow

18:50

Maybe it was the Greek Septuagint. I don't know I'm not sure most King James only us don't think the subject existed, but that's the only thing you would have had

18:56

But hey, I don't know Lined up exactly word -for -word exact and that's where we get the

19:03

Texas word -for -word exact Now the fact is we've identified almost all the manuscripts that he used and They are not word -for -word exact.

19:15

That's the problem. He had to do textual criticism This is this is where you get the same kind of you know in the early church when people thought the

19:23

Greek Septuagint was the Standard they told stories about how you know The 70 scholars went into their caves and they came back out and they had a word it was word -for -word identical

19:32

Which means God inspired it so on and so forth. That's how stories like this happened There are no two manuscripts that are word -for -word exact and none of the manuscripts that he used were word -for -word exact Remember, he only had one manuscript revelation.

19:44

It wasn't even a manuscript. It's commentary in Latin But Still he had to make decisions even between his own manuscripts and the scary thing was the best manuscript he had was the one he trusted least

19:57

It was the oldest it was the best And the TR would be a much better Text if he had actually trusted it, but he didn't so there you go that this and this is the

20:07

Sinaiticus and Vaticanus Now these manuscripts were found inside of a

20:13

Catholic monastery So notice what that what happens here is instead of recognizing

20:18

Vaticanus has been known even in the days of Erasmus and that Erasmus himself Asked Bombastius his friend in Rome to look things up in the

20:28

Vatican manuscript They don't ever want to admit that it's just a lapse of no

20:35

Erasmus knew that there was a very ancient manuscript. They didn't know how ancient they didn't know how exactly how old it was But it was known in the days of Erasmus so that's in the

20:46

Vatican library and That's a long ways from st. Catherine's Monastery So he's conflating

20:52

Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and the story of the finding of Sinaiticus With evidently

20:58

Vaticanus being with it or something. I guess It's hard to say because I mean anybody who knows the history is just going

21:07

What where did this come from? They were found with fourteen thousand eight hundred alterations and corrections

21:14

Within the document itself. So this is probably in reference to either marginal notes corrections between lines

21:25

And given how given that these are both now I'm not sure if he's just talking about because he seems confused as where he's talking about the

21:31

New Testament Old Testament But given the number of Not only pages involved, but then how long these were used

21:44

That makes perfect sense and that's why you know entire books have been written on the various scribes of Sinaiticus and the different inks they

21:50

Used and how many hundreds of years after the original writing you have editing being done

21:57

And this is what this whole at least at least Well, maybe later on he goes into it.

22:03

I don't know but I only have this one clip, but at least he didn't go into the stuff about Sinaiticus being a forgery and Simonides and all the rest that silly stuff that people are throwing around today when they found these when they found these

22:20

They had so in Westcott and Hort found Westcott and Hort of course compiled a

22:29

Greek New Testament in the 19th century and This was

22:36

They're they're after Tischendorf long after the finding of Vaticanus They they were not involved in the finding of Sinaiticus And things like that.

22:48

So again, we have just a whole lot of historical mythology Flowing together here scribbles.

22:55

They had erasures they had they had 14 ,800 different Issues contradictions

23:05

Okay, they were not contradictions, but I guess the idea being well, they're they're variants and therefore there you go.

23:12

So There we'll have to listen to the next one and see what comes out of that and see if there's more fun interesting stuff to encounter, but this is

23:25

This is one of the things real quickly and I know we've got callers. We're gonna go to him right away This is one of the things that's a little bit scary about the

23:33

IFB King James only stuff is that these guys Since they're afraid to listen to what's outside Then they just keep regurgitating their own stuff and it ends up losing

23:48

Accuracy over time. It doesn't become more accurate They're not it's not iron sharpening iron.

23:54

It's water dulling iron and turning it to rust basically and You end up with this kind of just really really really bad information.

24:03

So I'm hoping the brother might think through some of his his claims and maybe do some reading outside the

24:12

IFB world and That would be that would be helpful at that point in time Okay, so I'm not sure what

24:19

I'm supposed to do here Okay, so in the order that you put it

24:29

Okay, all right, so let's talk to Nick Hi, Nick in calling via zoom.

24:36

Hi, Nick Dr. White a privilege to talk to you. Yes, sir. So you're

24:43

Doing the series on baptism at Apologia Church Apologia and Full disclosure,

24:53

I'm a minister in the churches of Christ However, thanks to James White University on YouTube and the dividing line.

25:04

I am leaning toward Geneva Quite a bit that well, then

25:10

I hope you're using an anonymous name Nick. That's all I can say Because I understand because even thinking those directions can can be yeah, okay anyway, so with that preface

25:26

Colossians to baptism. I mean we place a very high premium on baptism in churches of Christ.

25:33

And so that's For me a big a big deal and so I was listening to Colossians 2 and I was wondering about What you would say to?

25:45

You went through verses 11 and 12 the Unhandmade circumcision of Christ you were circumcised

25:55

Also, they were buried together with with Christ in baptism, they were also raised together

26:04

By faith in the powerful working of God Sort of any order I didn't

26:09

I didn't I didn't I went long as it was I I was stunned when we got done I'd got an hour and 12 minutes.

26:16

I apologized for that but but one thing that I did not emphasize that that I should have or Had thought of doing is it is interesting that that phrase you just looked at in Which you were also raised up With him through faith and the working of God who raised him from the dead that and ho is

26:39

Could be attached to Christ or so in whom but normally, it's attached to the closest antecedent and That's baptism, right?

26:53

So that would be interesting to discuss I would say it is that I think

27:01

I think it is baptism and so again that emphasizes the fact that we're talking here about a description of union with Christ and hearkening back to Regeneration and not to a

27:14

I mean baptism becomes the picture of it. That's what I I Understand when he talks about being buried and then raising from the dead,

27:21

I think that's one reason why there is a proper mode of baptism to to maintain the picture of Union with Christ and his death burial and resurrection so that I think is lost in a lot of forms of baptism that are popular today

27:36

But I still think that that's the whole point Is that when it talks about the working of God who raised him from the dead?

27:45

That would be one of the places we would have a very different understanding than the churches of Christ Primarily because of the foundation that we're bringing to everything that God does in salvation in other words

28:04

I I'm I'm Holding Paul together because this is this is

28:09

Colossians Colossians and Ephesians are very closely related to one another very similar themes things like that so I'm not seeing

28:17

Colossians 2 separated from Ephesians 1 3 through 11 and So I want to hear

28:24

Paul saying the same things, especially and I didn't bring this up last night But especially because of Colossians 4 16 where Paul says to the

28:34

Church of Colossae to read the epistle that's coming from Laodicea and I think very clearly that is

28:39

Ephesians that that was that was a circular letter that was to be passed around the churches in the Lycats River Valley and so that would only emphasize the themes that are concurrent between the the two letters which includes clearly the summing up of all things in Christ and a clear a clear presentation of predestination election in Ephesians 1 and following so that provides the background and instead of it being a

29:09

Human God ordained but humanly What turn do

29:14

I want to use initiated action? in in baptism baptism becomes a picture of something that God has done and My whole emphasis last night wasn't last night.

29:24

Sorry Sunday night Was the fact that what we have here is all the way through is a focus on Christ and what

29:31

Christ accomplishes So I just wanted to add that in there because when you said that I just wanted to point out in which you were also raised up with him and So that that's right with baptism if as you're you better have been raised up with him or you'd be bubbling pretty quickly

29:49

It's a picture of the fact that this Baptist Christian circumcision is

29:54

Pictured in our union with Christ in his death burial and resurrection Okay, so that go ahead so then what would you say about because these the verbs the

30:06

Participle as well. They're in verse 12, right? Mm -hmm. These are all a orist Intense Could We see these as then

30:18

Contemporaneous with one another the the circumcision that's taking place is taking place when we're buried together and when we're raised together

30:24

Well in baptism. Well when you're looking at participles Their their syntax is always especially when you're when you're talking about their their time frames

30:38

They're they're always Playing off of the main verb and So when you have these participial phrases that are describing these things

30:50

What you want to do is you want to ask where? where is this coming from and that really goes back to the circumcision made without hands and that was in him and if we're correct in understanding of what this this

31:08

Akira poi a toe Action is a circumcision made without hands if that is indeed rate your regeneration then that's your controlling verb and then the participles are to come after that are going to be either contemporary contemporaneous or Sometimes sometimes there is not an emphasis upon time as there is upon Description so there's been a bit of a

31:40

I'm not to get into this right now, but there's been a bit of a Revolution not revolution, but Basically if you read

31:50

Greek grammars that have been written in the past about 15 years there's been a somewhat of a de -emphasis upon Some of the time element in Greek verbal aspect with a and it's been replaced with much more of a relationship between What's found in the context the flow of the narrative and then participles themselves likewise have become impacted by that as well

32:18

So there isn't as much of an emphasis upon asking that between Assuming as older grammarians did that there was a very strict

32:31

Time connection between participles and their controlling verbs so you you in other words what they're saying now is if you're writing it if I was writing a commentary and I wanted to emphasize that this was

32:49

Concurrent or prior or after depending on whether you're talking heiress and presence and all the rest of stuff now

32:56

It would be required of you to substantiate That observation was something more than just simply saying well

33:03

This is an heiress participle with this kind of a finite verb You would have to actually come something come up with something from the context

33:10

To say that the author was specifically attempting to make that emphasis. So I'm That's that's something

33:18

I'm obviously well aware of but haven't spent a lot of time talking about in the program because That sort of limits the number of people in the audience that are interested in what

33:26

I'm saying but notice the new bearing of Sarah's is having been buried with him and again

33:34

Would that be in reference to the simple fact that when you're writing to a Christian congregation? this is

33:40

One thing it's very obvious and I've been emphasizing this in my series on baptism is When you write to the

33:46

Christian congregation you can assume that the Christians in the congregation have been baptized the idea of an

33:53

Unbaptized congregant is just simply not present. It is a common experience

34:00

And it is therefore used as a description of what we have

34:06

Experienced not only are we in Christ and therefore? He his righteousness is our righteousness so on and so forth

34:16

But it's also it gives unity to the body as well. Is that? that fact that By baptism we are saying he and he only is his death his burial resurrection is all that I can

34:29

I can ever Acclaim for myself which interestingly enough was the application I made as soon as the sermon was over which you wouldn't have seen

34:35

Because we have the Lord's Supper each Sunday and I emphasize that in my introduction to the to the supper as well

34:44

Very good. I did have a follow -up it's been almost two months since you did the radio free

34:50

Geneva responding to the guys over at GBN who are part of my fellowship the

34:56

Christ and you invited them to debate John 6 or Something along those lines did they ever respond?

35:04

I you know, I don't know to be honest with you No one has told me that they did but I've I've been traveling since then and I don't have time to necessarily

35:16

You know be running around if if they have I'd like to know about it, but no one Normally someone will will point that out to me.

35:23

They'll say hey, did you see that? So -and -so said yeah, they'd be happy to do that No one has if if they have

35:30

I would invite them to make sure that I see that Because I don't have anybody who does social media stuff for me and things like that and Especially when it comes to things like Twitter.

35:42

I'm just I am just absolutely convinced that Twitter's had me shadow banned forever and I just Rich will see things 15 minutes before I see it and then sometimes he'll see things.

35:54

I will never see Because I'm just using the the web interface, so I would love to do that So you could reiterate that but I haven't heard one way or the other and it's it could be just because I don't

36:06

I Didn't go out looking for it, but I just assumed someone would say oh, hey, this is great Let's let's get this set up, but I didn't hear anything.

36:16

Well, thank you for your time. Okay. All right. Thank you, Nick All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. All right, so Okay, and do you want me to do it on this end, okay

36:27

Okay, let's talk with Caleb hi Caleb How are you

36:37

I'm pretty good yourself. I'll be to the point because I know lots of other people had questions My girlfriend and I are getting interested in passing out tracks and doing evangelism and that's something

36:47

New to us and I know you have obviously been in this for a while and you have a lot more experience than I would

36:53

And so I just looking for general advice on what to include in tracks and how to approach people and Passing those out.

37:00

That's the thing well one thing I can say is that we have a tremendous amount of material on Doing that and examples of doing that at Apology at Church because I It's almost no

37:21

Day of the week that there's not some group from Apologia out doing exactly that either at Mormon Ward chapels or Mill Avenue You can see for example all sorts of videos

37:36

Of the outreach takes place in Mill Avenue, which is by the way, that's sort of downtown

37:41

Tempe right near Arizona State University So it's University town. So lots of conversations with lots of people that take place down there and there's hours and hours and hours and hours of material there that that could help you to feel like you're better prepared and obviously like Just last week.

38:00

I did a Mormonism training thing on Tuesday night And I went through the basic stuff like, you know

38:06

Making sure the person can see the title of the track don't hand it don't don't hand it to them upside down backwards

38:13

Don't make them step out of their Line of path to try to get it because a lot of people won't do that, you know

38:20

There's some real practical things along a lot of those lines. It's it's really helpful to make sure, you know, you're tracked real.

38:26

Well, you have a Some lines ready to use don't use the same line all night long

38:32

Especially if there's a lot of people walking by they may have heard you Say that to the person in front of them

38:38

And so it sounds like you're just repeating the same thing over and over again sort of like a robot Other little little things like if there is a line of people going by and someone toward the front

38:51

Rejects your tract. That's when it's good to have a second tract and Pull the first one back try to use a different one

38:57

Maybe let someone walk by and then try again because just human nature is when someone sees someone in front of them rejecting a tract

39:07

They're more likely to do it themselves So just there's there's all sorts of little things like that obviously the smile on the face and It doesn't take long to realize what the title of the tract may

39:20

Cause people to say in response and so you want to have thought through Maybe the first few exchanges as to why are we out here?

39:29

What this is about? You know things like that but yeah, it's just a matter of Getting your feet wet and I'll just tell you one story.

39:41

Then. We'll we've got a bunch a bunch bunch of people so I'll just tell you one story We were up in Salt Lake City years and years ago, and my son came up with me the first time he was just a little kid and This I turned around just in time to see this

39:55

Mormon take a tract from him and He reached for my son, so I started moving at that point

40:05

But he reached to my son and he he took the track and he he pulled my son was wearing a nice little white shirt and a rush

40:13

Limbaugh tie a little 14 inch one for kids and he pulled the front pocket open and shoved the track into it and then patted it and walked away right as I right as I arrived and My son had this look on his face like Wow what just happened and I said well son.

40:35

You just got your first rejection taken care of the rest will be nice and easy so there really There really is a sense in which once you get the first angry

40:45

Getting cussed out by somebody it sort of gets a little bit easier after that and Because you a lot of people go out, and I don't want that to happen well

40:55

So once it does and it's sort of like okay, I didn't die and so there you go

41:02

So you you you press on from there, but it is it is always helpful to have a group

41:07

Even if someone's just standing by praying for you It's it's it's always good to have somebody out there keeping track of stuff and these days honestly

41:18

It doesn't hurt if that person standing off to the side has a has a video running

41:24

You know there's all these there's there's all these cameras that are available that will run for hours and hours and hours now it's always good to have video proof of what's really going on out there because People can say

41:37

I heard this person saying X Y or Z And it's like well the fact of matter is the video was running and so we can prove whether we did or didn't so That's that's pretty wise too, okay?

41:48

All right, and I appreciate it. God bless you and may God keep you from the communist cookie monster Okay, thanks

41:54

Caleb god bless bye -bye all right so I'm looking at oh my goodness 12 waiting on zoom

42:04

So where do you want me to go next then go back to zoom and talk to Jordan hi

42:11

Jordan Hi, dr. White. Can you hear me? All right? I can how are you? I'm good my question has to do with Soteriology as presented in this in the synoptics

42:26

So John is not a pretty not not a subject I would suggest that you use on your first date or anything like that Yeah, no no it'll probably be the last date

42:39

I have to do to verify that is ask rich because he did that for a long time Yeah, no, that's not a that's not the topic of conversation right off the bat for sure

42:50

And if it were maybe I would know right away, that's the one but anyway, that's true. That's true. There you go

42:56

Okay, so John seems pretty clearly to be about faith in Christ for salvation

43:03

At least on a cursory reading like compare that to the synoptics It seems like the synoptics talk a lot about following You for example the rich young ruler

43:15

Sell all you have come follow me And so in John it also seems like It's clearly tying into the propitiation that Christ is going to go and offer for his people in the synoptics is that present there and I'm just not seeing it because I and this is also kind of going into some

43:34

Some evangelism stuff with Muslims that I've talked with who say look in the synoptics

43:39

It's all about the kingdom of God for Jesus and following him and stuff and it has nothing to do with his Death and resurrection and salvation is it has nothing to do with you know, that kind of thing.

43:50

And so May maybe you know, you can help me out understand this, you know, what is soteriology about in this synoptics?

43:58

Is it any different than it is in John? Is it presented any differently than it is in John? Or is it just using different words pretty much?

44:07

Wow, there's a there's obviously a lot there. I I spent nine years going through the synoptics at Phoenix foreign

44:14

Baptist Church about a over a decade ago now and Was very thankful in fact that we well actually was more than it was a decade and a half anyway,

44:27

I Think there's a couple things to keep in mind that are often difficult to communicate to our

44:33

Muslim friends because they've been they've been fed a straight diet of Shabir Ali for a few for a few decades now and So they get a pretty skewed view of the synoptic

44:44

Gospels and and the issues related to it Part of the question has to do with Why is?

44:52

Why do we have the Gospels the way we have them? Why is John not one of the synoptic Gospels and I think part of that probably has to do with when

45:00

John is written And does John know? About the synoptic

45:06

Gospels is is he aware of the content of the synoptic Gospels? There's all all the assumptions that people make about the relationship of Matthew Mark and Luke And yet there are clearly

45:19

Differences between the synoptic Gospels as to the audience that the writer is writing to and The emphases that the writer is going to have and our our

45:30

Muslim friends seem to think that Those things should not exist that there should not be

45:36

Luke should not be concerned about a Gentile audience. Matthew should not be concerned about a

45:42

Jewish audience Mark should not be seeking to Present a shorter story that's a little bit faster

45:50

Paced and doesn't have as much of the teaching of Jesus and all of that's gonna end up changing the the overall

45:58

Emphasis of any one of these books and if you believe and the funny thing is a

46:04

Muslim cannot argue this point Because I don't know if have you ever seen the debate that Shabir and I did on Oh What was it?

46:15

What was the title? I remember I remember where the church was I remember what the church looked like but what was the topic of that debate?

46:21

I think it was it may have been on whether Muhammad was prophesied in the

46:28

New Testament Might have been okay but We did a debate and I'm not sure if this picture is

46:38

I've seen a picture of this of this I'm not sure if it's part of the debate itself, but during the break

46:44

Shabir came over I had presented I had made as a part of my argument

46:50

The fact that there are four different places in the Quran Where the story of Sodom Gamorrah is presented always in different phraseology and contexts and wording and so they have to believe because you know you think about if if a law if This is these are the words of a law then shouldn't every description of Sodom and Gomorrah be the same because how could it be any it couldn't get any better if it's perfect the first time if you

47:25

Do it differently then it's worse so How do you there has to be a recognition on their part that it's appropriate to tell the same story in different?

47:36

Ways with different emphases because the Quran does it and they said it's amazing He literally came over during the break and said what are those references and there's a picture somewhere

47:46

Remember who took it or if it's in the video or something There's a picture somewhere of him kneeling next to my desk as I'm giving him the

47:53

Quranic references where Sodom and Gomorrah and it's It's in whatever

47:59

Christian needs to know about the Quran if you have my book. There's a discussion of all of that in there but the point is they have this thinking that sometimes we end up with a lot of Christians really struggle to handle the synoptics and to Use a parallel in studying the synoptics because they're thinking that each one of these authors should be

48:21

Choosing the same elements the story and phrasing things in the same way These should be transcriptions of an mp3 recording all the rest that kind of stuff

48:30

None of which anybody in the ancient world would have had any way of understanding or even Any concept of why you would think that way?

48:38

and so when you look at Soteriology as a as a whole You also have to remember that if what those

48:49

Gospels are saying is true Then the God who gave us those Gospels Had already begun giving

48:59

The rest of the New Testament revelation even before the Gospels were written

49:04

So in other words God Did not intend Okay, I'm getting something coming back in my my earphone rich, it's doesn't

49:13

I'm not sure what it is, but God did not intend those Gospels to just stand alone without Without Romans and Galatians and everything else as part of the

49:25

New Testament. So I think it's appropriate To ask questions about the general perspective of emphasis in a gospel but I get concerned when we separate the gospel out and Try to make it stand on its own because I don't think that's what

49:46

God and ever intended it to do and So I do see for example in Like the way you put it faith believing in John following but the problem is

50:03

Real faith in John is a ongoing present tense

50:10

For example the one looking and believing present tense participles over against and this is where in opposition to the preceding

50:18

Caller not proceeding college call before that This is where there is something in the context that emphasizes these things

50:25

When John refers to false faith Like in John chapter 2 Where it says

50:31

Jesus was not believing himself to them He was not entrusting himself to them and in John chapter 8 when they said that That they believed in him, but by the end of the chapter that pick up stones to stone him those used an heiress form of Believing whereas whenever Jesus talks about saving faith.

50:52

It's in the present tense So for John he is giving us that contextual Evidence that there is a

51:00

Following element to this belief. There is an ongoing element. There is a obedience element to this to this faith and so I don't think it's a it's meant to be a massive contrast, but if John is writing with knowledge of What Matthew Mark and Luke have already written?

51:18

he clearly is Seeking to do something To emphasize some other aspects that are needed at that particular point in time at a later point in church history

51:31

Whether it's only a decade later or much longer depending on where you put John some people put him before 70 some people wasn't as late as the 90s and so I would instead of trying to find

51:45

Differences I would go. Okay in light of Mark's brevity Hence not a lot of teaching passages and hence actions

51:56

Matthew's focus upon the Jewish audience Luke's focus upon a non -jewish audience all being early

52:06

With Luke Writing in connection with acts where you're gonna get so much more of the soteriology laid out in the sermons that are coming

52:15

You don't have that with Matthew or Mark If you if you put all those things together and keep those things in mind

52:24

Then I think you can end up seeing the commonalities more than than emphasizing the differences

52:32

And I think a lot of people try to emphasize the differences rather than going Well, actually

52:39

No, there's there's it's sort of like when people say my favorite example is when people say

52:44

Mark and John Have completely different views of Jesus as far as Christology goes, you know, so even

52:51

Bart Ehrman will say Oh John Yeah, Jesus God, you know eternally existed

52:57

Incarnation. Yeah, that's obvious for John but Mark has no concept of these things and then you start carefully going through Mark and you you you get to mark 1460 or so and He Jesus is speaking to the you know, the high priest says are you the

53:14

Son of the Most Blessed One and Jesus' response is to weave together material from Psalm 2 and Psalm 110 saying

53:22

I am He says eggo I me I am and then he quotes the psalm Psalm 2 and Psalm 110 and the immediate response the high priest is you've heard the blasphemy

53:33

So you have that's that's one of the one of the clearest Testimonies from Jesus own mouth that I could think of and yet it's in Mark so so I think

53:46

It's it's allowing those contexts to exist. They would allow us to see more of the continuity and not so much a

53:55

Concept of contrast and so I think the faith and trust that you see people giving to Jesus in doing what he commands

54:05

Or even or even in the the demons recognizing who he was in Mark 5 Is not some world away from from what

54:15

John records for us There there are two different pictures giving us the same the same truth

54:23

But just focusing upon I mean think about it. You can read mark in how many minutes? I bet

54:29

I bet we could look it up on the web and there's those calculators and stuff like that How many minutes how much of Jesus teaching is actually captured there?

54:37

income, you know, none of you read all four of the Gospels and you're still just scratching the surface and So it's it would be easy for those authors to be choosing to communicate what they wanted to communicate because they weren't trying to do they weren't trying to be a 20th century and notice

54:55

I said 20th and not 21st century journalists because I'm not sure there are any 21st century journalists, but That they weren't following those those parameters

55:04

Right. Yes Okay, that makes sense. Thank you very much Okay and and I did I did think of it the the verse in Matthew anyone who causes

55:12

One of these little ones who believe in me to sin so that we do see kind of that intermingling of language.

55:18

Oh Well, look at Matthew 11 Matthew 11 27 is following is the gospel of John and Matthew I mean, that's even people says

55:26

Johan in language. And so yeah, it does there are those places where it's like, hey That there's there's your connection right there.

55:33

Yeah, definitely Yep. Yep. Okay. Thanks very much brother. Thank you. Thanks What is that supposed to mean on the

55:44

Okay. All right. Thanks and let's talk to Andrew. Hi Andrew Hi, Dr.

55:51

Way up. Yes, sir. Nice to talk to you. Let me get you a Bluetooth here because I'm listening to myself

55:58

Yes, can you hear me? Yes, sir Okay, sir. So my question is regarding church history.

56:05

There seems to be a lot of Churches and rightfully so that embrace the idea of church authority or churches starting churches and yet I awfully would

56:18

Out at the same time say they would reject and seems rightfully so the perpetuity that's spoken of and for example the trail of blood and I'm wondering exactly where that line gets drawn if I were to ask that question and go to my

56:34

Bible with a question How is a church to be started? I would see churches started by you know, a church started by Jesus and that church in Jerusalem starting other churches so Historically we can debunk things like the bill of blood but how biblically would you answer that question of what is the proper way for a church to be started

56:55

Considering whatever the Bible has to say about authority. Well, there are There are good ways to start churches.

57:02

There are less good ways to start churches. There are bad ways to start churches Sure many of the churches for example the the churches to which the letters were written in Revelation no longer exist

57:15

Functionally there that's a Muslim area primarily Some lasted longer than others

57:22

I've always found it historically interesting that within Two less than three decades

57:32

After writing such an important epistle as the epistle to the Church of Colossae Colossae no longer existed it was destroyed in an earthquake and God knew that was going to happen and so there is no there is a this requires a lot of a lot of different things to come together in our thinking that unfortunately, a lot of evangelicals are not asked to think about with regularity and That is our ecclesiology our view of church history and our understanding of God's purposes over time and so The when

58:13

I say there are are better ways for a church to start I think that you know, the best way is for an already established church that has deep roots in sound biblical theology that Recognizes where it stands in church history is appreciative of Those who've gone before us.

58:39

I think there's I think there's I think one of the and You're you're you're talking to the the the choir leader here.

58:48

I mean, I've taught church history for decades and have always emphasized that I think that We cut off our nose to spite our face when we do not study

58:59

Church history and appreciate what Christ has done amongst his people before us at the same time

59:07

I recognize well, I was just thinking about this there is a Old -time church history professor at the old at the old

59:17

Covenant Seminary not the new Covenant Seminary But Covenant Seminary in st. Louis back in the olden days.

59:22

There was a church history professor There his name is escaping me at the moment, but I loved listening to his stuff.

59:28

It was put in Apple iTunes iTunes you I think is what it was called years ago and He he would close each of his lessons either with a positive

59:44

Quotation from an old an ancient church father or with a sort of a little prayer that was sort of like let us learn from the stakes of those who went before us when

59:53

He was covering bad stuff in church history. So there's a recognition that People have been sinners and there have been

01:00:04

Errors and there have been mistakes and there have been movements that have lasted for hundreds of years that took people in the wrong direction we also have to recognize that for example,

01:00:14

I think it's fascinating that Calvin His favorite person to cite is

01:00:21

Augustine, but you know who his second favorite person to cite is Bernard of Clairvaux So in other words, there is a an appreciation even when there would be a

01:00:35

Disagreement So so when the Reformers quote Augustine They're quoting

01:00:41

Augustine Primarily and his doctrines of grace and the Roman Catholics are quoting Augustine for his doctrine of the church and they both can do it

01:00:48

Because Augustine wasn't consistent with himself and that's one of the greatest Lessons that we can learn is if someone with a theological mind like that can have blind spots.

01:00:57

So can we? Every time I've taught church history This is what I've tried to teach people to understand

01:01:02

That you can appreciate people and you can learn from people even when you disagree with them Over in another area or an area over there or maybe in a bunch of different areas

01:01:11

It doesn't mean they didn't say things that did not have validity and can be a blessing So having said all of that, that means church history is going to be a mixed bag

01:01:21

And it was in the days of the Apostles. I Mean you get you get the real sense that Ephesus pretty much had it together

01:01:33

I mean Paul's Paul trained the elders there and they had a good foundation but then you go to Corinth and it's just sort of it's sort of like the

01:01:41

These guys can't get it straight for nothing and you look at first at the first epistle of Clement to the

01:01:47

Corinthians and years later They still aren't getting it straight. They still have a big problem.

01:01:53

So That's that doesn't mean that there weren't good solid Christians in Corinth either

01:01:58

And so that's the reality that we face all around us And so I think the best way is for a church to be started you have an eldership over them

01:02:09

They can give them guidance and and get them going and and raise up leadership from within and and there's consistency and there that's that's the way to do it, but not all churches have started that way and There might be lots of places in the world today

01:02:26

Where churches get started and almost nobody has any clue what in the world's going on, but they're the only ones there

01:02:34

And so they have to do the best they can with what God's given them and You don't want to come in there and say oh y 'all just messed everything up Do y 'all just shut it down if if you get the opportunity to bless them and edify them and strengthen them and stuff like that Great fine.

01:02:49

Wonderful do it But but don't do it in such a way that oh You've just totally messed everything up because you didn't do it the way that we said to do it.

01:02:56

So Yeah, there needs to on the on the far Side of the

01:03:02

Protestant experience you have people who honestly think the church history started with Billy Graham And they're disconnected.

01:03:10

They're disconnected from history and everything that goes with it. And then on the other side you have people who

01:03:17

Have actually gotten to the point where they have turned The viewpoints of those who came before them into the lenses through which they read scripture itself and hence cannot experience

01:03:28

Reformation Those are two right those are those are two Catastrophic Ditches you do not want to fall into and so the the challenge is balance

01:03:40

It's it's always recognizing the the unique authority of scripture but also

01:03:46

Recognizing that Christ has been building his church and he's going to continue doing so and therefore to ignore what he has done in his people before our time is to cut off your nose to spite your face and So that's that's where you find that's where you find the balance

01:04:00

I think and obviously some people are gonna Balance that to the left of me and to the right of me

01:04:07

But I think that's where at least we can have a meaningful conversation as a good starting place So if I can just add on to that and I appreciate it so much.

01:04:16

I'll try to be quick I'm in a congregation actually that lovely people who believe in this

01:04:24

Briderism you might call it to where if you were not started by authority all the way back to the

01:04:29

Apostles you don't have a church and I can see that pattern, but I don't see necessarily that principle

01:04:36

And I just wonder biblically Where would you take somebody in the scripture to show them that or as it is ideal to be started from an existing church?

01:04:45

somebody Started up by other means by whatever means they had trying to follow the

01:04:50

Lord the best They're still a valid church, right? Well, you know, it's interesting that no one

01:04:58

I'm unaware of any information that tells us that the church at Colossae was started with some type of Apostolic Commission instead what

01:05:07

Paul did is he plant? He's plants a healthy church in Ephesus and the natural result of that is going to be evangelism upriver and that's how

01:05:15

Colossae was started and So there may have been another church there may have been a believer at Colossae Who goes up for the river far from that and and a church is planted there that we don't know about and certainly

01:05:31

If persecution then all of a sudden cut off that brand new Small body of believers.

01:05:37

Does that mean Christ can't build a church there? Of course not now I what I was I had a hard time understand.

01:05:43

Did you say bridal ism? What did you say? Yeah, some people refer as bridal ism some people say succession ism or perpetuity landmark ism, okay

01:05:53

All right. Okay. Yeah, that's a lot of names Yeah See the the church history professor guys sitting here going how does anyone make that meaningful argument because I look at Rome Rome obviously makes that argument and I know that that is an absolute joke

01:06:09

I know far too much about the history of the Roman Church To take seriously the idea that there's some type of unbroken line of succession that is be found there and so for For someone outside of that to say, oh, yeah, you bet our church

01:06:23

We can trace ourselves right back to the apostles and and you know They do it through the trail of blood through various Gnostic groups and everything else in the process

01:06:31

It's like whoa, you do you do not want to go there? And here's what I would say. This is something's very important and that is

01:06:39

Apostolic succession sounds like such a wonderful wonderful thing

01:06:44

But what what's been my emphasis down through through the years?

01:06:50

Apostolic succession must be a succession of truth Not a succession of names

01:06:58

So you can claim all the apostolic succession and put together your little lists like Rome does

01:07:06

If that if if the result of that is that you are not Teaching the same things the

01:07:13

Apostles taught. What good is that? And The only the only way that we can know what the

01:07:20

Apostles taught is that we have one thing from them And that is scripture to say that there as soon as you start going into it

01:07:28

Yeah, you have to have this extra stuff now You're now you're you're getting into an area where there's never going to be any

01:07:35

Certainty because we don't have anything from the Apostles other than what is specifically found in Theanus revelation

01:07:41

That's that's all there is to it. So, all right, I Agree with that. Thank you very much.

01:07:47

Okay. All right. Thanks a lot. Thanks for call. God bless. I Guess we'll go to the bottom of the hour.

01:07:54

I Mean we could probably do this for all day Really good.

01:08:03

Oh Goodness, okay. All right. I'm sorry Yeah, okay, so where am

01:08:11

I supposed to go now you're in charge of this, oh really Okay.

01:08:17

All right. Let's talk to Let's talk to Chris on zoom How you doing dr.

01:08:24

White, um, I am fighting the temptation right now Chris I'm gonna tell you

01:08:29

I really really am but I That's that's the whole point of why

01:08:34

I'm calling. I'm just curious how much torment we're gonna have this season Well anybody who is anybody who has followed me on Twitter for a while Knows poor

01:08:48

Chris Chris is the object of our our abuse. It's actually our love, but it's also abuse. It's it's an abuse

01:08:53

It's an abusive love but I was I was gonna ask if you were a happy little elf today and and and things like that if you if you needed a hug and and But yes,

01:09:06

Chris Chris with the voice of reason radio though, I'm not sure, you know I've been thinking about the name voice of reason.

01:09:13

Where'd you get reason from? I mean, are you a rationalist? You know,

01:09:19

I mean just you know, where is this coming from? we actually Phrased it that way for a particular reason because reason is a word that tends to be abused by the cultures

01:09:30

There's really only one true voice reason that God's work, okay, everything else stems from that Okay, the intent is to get everybody to focus back on that.

01:09:40

So, yeah, okay Yeah, so some of you have seen

01:09:47

Ultraman in the background on a couple of my couple of my videos from the the mobile command center and so that he was he was deposited there by by Chris when he visited when we were up in the

01:10:05

Nevada area a number of months ago and so so good

01:10:10

Yeah, I appreciate you're out there listening and I honestly I'll be honest with you

01:10:16

I've got another trip coming up and so it's it's it's gonna be hard for me to really come up with anything overly imaginative this year as far as Buddy and helping

01:10:28

I thought buddy was it was a good start I'll have to I'll have to see if there's some other way of helping you out with that So so there you go, but we'll do our best.

01:10:36

Well, you're best. All right I think you did quite well considering by the time I was done. There was an entire plethora of Paraphernalia in my house.

01:10:45

I know I know I know I know I Just wish I just wish I'm ready

01:10:51

I just wish that your family would you know at night would put up some of those cutouts, you know at the foot of the bed

01:10:56

So that yeah, that's first thing is first thing or in the darkness You see you see this this person saying the foot of your bed

01:11:02

I think that would I bet you your sons could do that. And and I'm just I'm giving them I'm giving that because I'm an elder in a church.

01:11:10

So I'm giving them elderly permission Of course you are a

01:11:16

Leo so you we could end up with an interesting picture of Buddy with bullet holes That happens so anyway, hey man,

01:11:27

I appreciate your call Yeah, the cops end up visiting you that's that's true that's true you're starting to break up a little bit honest as first break up on zoom, but thanks,

01:11:44

Chris for your phone call today and It was the easiest response that I've so far all the questions have required fairly maximal effort to to put out here, so On the phone, okay.

01:12:01

All right. Let's talk to Rupert. Hi Rupert Hi, dr.

01:12:06

James white Nice to meet you. How are you doing? Taking a drink actually

01:12:16

So I guess I wanted to ask you as I've been kind of personally dealing with King James only ism from some different friends of mine and Even people

01:12:27

I don't know very well, but one claim that I've been hearing recently that I just don't know what to think about is

01:12:35

I keep hearing them say that You know the older text like the

01:12:41

Alexandrian manuscripts are corrupted in the church Fathers condemned them and instead used the

01:12:47

Byzantine text which they thought were superior and I don't know I also hear about the humanization of Westcott and Horta's horrible evil cultic men and also

01:12:57

This guy he bought me a book from Called the unbroken Bible by dr.

01:13:03

Phil stringer. And anyways, I was reading through it It seems to just be kind of the traditional

01:13:09

King James only arguments pretty much Yeah, I guess my Question is regarding. How do we know that like the text like the

01:13:17

Vanessa on the UBS and stuff like that are you know truly pure because I'm just wondering where they get these claims that They're corrupt and they remove the claims of Jesus blood and stuff like that Yeah, well again

01:13:33

It's quoting and then quoting and then quoting and you can never find out where the original fact

01:13:39

Behind the quote allegedly came from there everything that was just said there when you talk about Corrupt manuscripts what they're saying is they're different than the manuscripts that Erasmus had access to which again were between six and six and twelve manuscripts and It's not like there's some different book.

01:14:01

They aren't even a skeptic like Bart Ehrman will admit that Whatever New Testament manuscript you're gonna be using it's still gonna have the same message the same general

01:14:12

Thrust there's just gonna be differences at specific points. And so it's an accusation of corruption

01:14:20

When they say the early church fathers condemned one side. Yeah, that's just a lie. It's just not true

01:14:26

No one in no one in the past knew What even what text types were?

01:14:34

There it's not like well you had people who knew well we have these manuscripts and we'll only use them

01:14:40

We're not going to use those over there. It's just not true that you just simply ask them. Okay Show me where the early church writers

01:14:49

Identified manuscripts in the way you're identifying them and said the things you're saying they can't they're quoting somebody heard somebody in a speech 20 years ago said something and that's where it's coming from the reality is that you simply have a manuscript tradition and You do end up with one

01:15:11

Very clearly Identifiable family of manuscripts called the

01:15:16

Byzantine manuscripts and there's a obvious reason for this and that's because of what happened between 632 and 732 in history and 632

01:15:27

Muhammad dies and over the next 100 years Islam spreads out of the

01:15:34

Arabian Peninsula up through the Holy Lands out toward The east all across North Africa and across into Europe until it finally is halted

01:15:44

At the Battle of Tours in 732. So for a hundred years all those places that it spread to were

01:15:51

Christian areas prior to the rise of Islam and so The language the ecclesiastical language in the

01:16:01

West in Rome So Italy places like that had already become

01:16:06

Latin Starting in the late 2nd into the 3rd centuries Tertullian the father of Latin Theology is is key for that.

01:16:16

And so where is Greek manuscript? production going to be centered After the rise of Islam, well primarily around a place called

01:16:26

Byzantium Constantinople and hence the the popular text that had become

01:16:35

Established in that particular area by that time in history is going to be the primary

01:16:40

Manuscripts are going to be being copied. And so the majority text is is

01:16:46

Byzantine But when we go back to the earlier centuries,

01:16:51

I think it's vitally important when when the church was fighting against the early forms of Antitrinitarianism in the form of oneness teaching not oneness modern oneness

01:17:04

But subalien is a modalism dynamic monarchy and ism, etc Etc when it was dealing with arianism and the denial of the of the deity of Christ What what manuscripts were they using what what did they read and when we when we can actually now over the past hundred years

01:17:22

Actually find manuscripts that are older than that time period what what what did they say and When you look at p66 p75 the two earliest manuscripts, we have the

01:17:35

Gospel of John. They are not of the Byzantine family That doesn't mean that does not mean that they teach something different than what you would have in say

01:17:47

Codex, Alexandrinus a couple hundred years later Codex, Washingtonianus early early representatives in some parts of What would become the

01:17:57

Byzantine text type if you use the same rules of hermeneutics? You're gonna be coming up with the same beliefs

01:18:02

But as far as the readings that are concerned the farther back we go the this same series of readings is found in the papyri and then in the great unseals like Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and and things like that and so history doesn't bear out the

01:18:25

Accusations that King James only us make when they talk about corrupted scriptures and stuff like that.

01:18:31

They just they're they're making it up They're saying well, you have manuscripts that came from Antioch and you have manuscripts that came from Alexandria prove it

01:18:38

Prove it. They can't they can't even begin to prove it. It is pure speculation.

01:18:44

It is pure assertion you can't document it with actual manuscripts at all and so It just it but it takes on a life of its own amongst the

01:18:55

King James only us and It becomes an echo chamber this guy writes a book that guy writes a book and Then somebody quotes those two people and it sounds like now you have three people saying the same thing when it's the same lie

01:19:06

Just being repeated over and over again and That's that's the problem so There were there were some other things

01:19:16

I think oh and real quickly Because we do have some other people. Um, even though come to think of it one of the callers on Oh, no, it's same one.

01:19:28

Okay. No, no There's someone on zoom what's also King James only oh

01:19:34

Okay, that's the man zoom was anyways you had you had mentioned Taking the blood out and that I am

01:19:44

Yeah Bad guys and like it being a part of right, right, right, right, right, right, right

01:19:50

Well, the fact the matter is no one's using the Westcott and Hortex today except Jehovah's Witnesses to be perfectly honest with you

01:19:56

They're still using it because it's royalty -free Again these folks are a hundred years behind the times

01:20:04

The the Nessie Allen 28th edition is not the Westcott and Hortex Westcott and Hort were were

01:20:13

Anglicans of at the end of the 19th century so Hort was less conservative than Westcott but if you read

01:20:19

Westcott's commentary on Hebrews and Compare that to anything that would be produced by anything other than the

01:20:25

Sydney Anglicans today any other Anglicans anywhere It's more conservative than anything that could be found.

01:20:31

Anyways, it's an excellent commentary So they are accused of all sorts of wild and crazy stuff people put ellipses into their quotes

01:20:40

And and I even document in the King James only controversy where they tried to change

01:20:47

Hort's words to make it sound like he was worshipping Mary and all the rest of stuff and and it was exact opposite when

01:20:52

You when you actually look at what the quotation was But they're doing this because they're that far behind they they can't deal with with modern textual critical materials

01:21:02

And so they're that far behind so they're attacking stuff. That's no longer relevant at all and the whole

01:21:09

Accusation about taking the blood out is all based upon a single Variant that I actually talked about and in Twitter two days ago

01:21:19

And that is in Ephesians chapter 1 you have the phrase we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our sins and In Colossians when

01:21:30

Paul uses same phraseology says we have forgiveness He doesn't include through his blood well the

01:21:40

Some scribe about nine centuries after the birth of Christ Either because he knew it was in Ephesians or he had it memorized and so just assumed it was there

01:21:50

Inserted through his blood into the relevant passage in Colossians chapter 1 There were no manuscripts for nearly a thousand years

01:22:00

That had that reading But it appears later on there are a small number handful of manuscripts that have that reading

01:22:10

But Erasmus happened to use one of them. So it's in the TR even though the majority text doesn't have it it's not really the

01:22:18

Byzantine reading for that text and it's unknown in the early church and So That's not taking it out.

01:22:27

It was added in by mistake by a scribe nearly a thousand years after the birth of Christ and All of a sudden we're supposed to take that as the as the standard.

01:22:38

That's why I say The fundamental issue is what did the

01:22:43

Apostles, right? That is what we must be focused upon and when you stay focused upon that You'll reject

01:22:50

King James only ism and you'll reject TR only ism as well. No question about it

01:22:57

Yeah, and if I mean very very quickly insert this last thing So a lot of people will point into the

01:23:03

Nestle Island and say that like a look It says the Vatican supervised this so that means the

01:23:08

Catholic Church corrupted it Would you say that is false or what is the whole deal with that? the

01:23:14

Editorial committee is drawn from a wide wide wide variety of folks because it's published by Bible Society and that Bible Society is

01:23:23

Involved with every kind of Christian Church that's out there. So remember so you have you've got everyone from believing

01:23:33

Protestants through scholarly Roman Catholics and and a few people in between That are involved in the in the in the committee

01:23:42

But since it is a critical text their decisions First of all, there's a commentary

01:23:50

Metzger put the commentary out a long time ago It's dated now, obviously by a long shot, but that gave you the original

01:23:58

Reasoning for why certain variants reviewed the way they were Most of the stuff that's done today is

01:24:04

Really based upon what's called the ECM the Dicio Critico Mayor, which is being done by the folks at Munster The Vatican is simply using this stuff in fact we should we should see that as a victory to be honest with you because the

01:24:20

Primary the primary counter -reformation attack of Rome was to attack the

01:24:26

Greek text And to assert the supremacy of the Latin Vulgate. They lost that battle.

01:24:31

Yeah, they've given that up and so so there you go if All we were handed was a text like the

01:24:39

TR that has no notes in it And they said they said here believe this I'd have a problem with having

01:24:45

Roman Catholics on the committee I have all the documentation right in front of me because the way they publish it so I can

01:24:51

Analyze those readings myself and come to my own decisions that I don't have to worry about that So that's something to keep in mind.

01:24:57

Okay? Well, okay. Thank you That was very helpful, okay

01:25:04

Okay, thanks Rupert appreciate it we're gonna try to get to some other folks here

01:25:10

And I have no idea where I'm going going to Andrew on Zoom hi

01:25:17

Andrew Hello, Andrew That's the first person we've lost on Andrew What's that?

01:25:26

Oh gonna unmute him there. Yes can hear you now Fantastic First things first.

01:25:33

I just gotta ask this question really quick I know you're moving your mobile command center all over the great country of Texas When are you gonna visit the

01:25:42

People's Republic of Austin? You know My understanding is that the

01:25:50

CCP has already Started building a wall around Austin and is in full control of everything that happens in Austin So I'm not sure

01:25:57

I'd get back out to be honest with you Because I mean, let's let's face it.

01:26:04

What's the deepest blue spot in all of of Texas? It's Austin Yeah.

01:26:12

Yeah, there's a lot of so it that's is that where you're located? All I'll say is that I have to climb over that wall

01:26:25

Every time I go to and from work. I got you fully understand The the trip that is scheduled and I am reminded by bodily weakness that these things are all just Scheduled right now, but everybody pray that we'll be able to do it

01:26:42

Right now. I am supposed to be in Amarillo for a

01:26:48

Sunday and Then a following Monday. I've got something really big going on there that I hope folks would pray for I'll tell everybody about it later on And then on the way back

01:27:00

I'm popping down to Lubbock for The last weekend that I'm out so This particular trip is more northern on my way through because my my terminal destination is st.

01:27:15

Charles, Missouri So I've got a sort of go north easterly but obviously

01:27:21

I've like a lot of friends in Dallas. I Know San Antonio is a deep a deep blue spot, too, but I love the

01:27:30

Riverwalk there I got to I got to visit San Antonio during Christmas one year and just fell in love with the

01:27:35

Riverwalk. It was gorgeous again I don't know if I could even be allowed in I'm sure the unvaxxed are considered to be persona non grata in places like that but We've got

01:27:48

I've got a trip hopefully headed toward Florida in late January early February And if that goes the southern route all the way then coming through The Houston that that lower portion of Texas is definitely definitely in the plans and Definitely very doable because 10 the

01:28:10

I 10 is one of my return routes. I can get through New Mexico really fast that way Awesome awesome.

01:28:18

So my actual question has to do with the topic of theosis. I Ever since I heard

01:28:24

Hank Hanegraaff who was my honestly my first introduction to apologetics Move over to the

01:28:30

Orthodox side. I've just been studying that whole Movement and and haven't found and haven't found a whole lot from Evangelicals have you?

01:28:43

Yeah, yeah I'm telling you People keep telling me

01:28:50

I will get to theosis in a second, but keep will be people keep telling me You've got to address

01:28:56

Orthodoxy good if you've been studying it, then, you know how complicated and difficult that is because yeah the fun real

01:29:07

Orthodoxy does not think in a Western fashion it thinks the the liturgy is the mechanism of the communication of The theology and the doctrine and One of their criticisms of the

01:29:24

West is that we are far too forensic in our thinking as it is so Mystery energy.

01:29:31

I do I do actually I I'm so thankful that years and years and years and years and years ago.

01:29:37

I Had the opportunity of dialoguing with a I believe a convert to orthodoxy

01:29:43

This was before this was at the early time in the Internet This was either in some of those early early or it may have even been on a

01:29:51

BBS I'm not a hundred percent certain that that's how long ago it was. But the point was he was a guy who could communicate with me and Hence was able to I was able to understand what these things are

01:30:05

But I'm not sure that I'm smart enough to bridge that chasm. I'm not sure that anyone ever has

01:30:11

To be honest with you. It's it is a huge chasm and I don't know about you But when

01:30:16

I look at what Hank's doing, I find it fascinating that he can't avoid the pitfall for Eastern Orthodox apologists and that is adopting a westernized version of orthodoxy because you end up sounding like a

01:30:33

Roman Catholic rather than an Orthodox person in the stuff that you're saying because you are trying to do apologetics in a

01:30:39

Western context and I've just found that fascinating too But let me explain what theosis is before you ask your question because nobody let's be honest with you

01:30:47

What percentage of evangelicals have heard the term? and by the way, I did address theosis in one chapter in my book is the

01:30:55

Mormon my brother because Mormon apologists and scholars and writers make reference to theosis as if it has parallels to the

01:31:03

Mormon doctrine of Exaltation to Godhood, which I can assure you Joseph Smith had no earthly connection to any of that But theosis is the the concept that you see developing fairly early on in the

01:31:17

Eastern Fathers There's there's a there's some some shadows of it in Athanasius and then it certainly grows far beyond that so that by the 7th 8th 9th centuries, which

01:31:29

I would say is the seedbed of The tradition that is orthodoxy today is that time period that John of Damascus?

01:31:42

Maximus all those all those folks And it's the concept of That glorification involves the

01:31:54

And I have to be very careful here because Athanasius would have bristled at the idea of an ontological confusion of the creature with the

01:32:05

Creator But theosis can in especially Mystical expressions of it almost sound like there is a

01:32:18

Blurring of the line between the creature and the Creator so that When when

01:32:27

Peter says we partake of the divine nature That's the key the key text as far as in the New Testament that this is taken

01:32:35

To to mean that there is a Sense in which men become godlike

01:32:43

Not gods in competition to God not eternal in the sense of guys eternal, but that there is a fundamental

01:32:51

Change that takes place in glorification And again, it depends on which author you're reading as to exactly how they make applications.

01:33:00

So anyway, you may want to Change that to to fit specifically what you're reading about theosis or go from there

01:33:10

Well, I guess the real question was is that has there at least within the Western context whether it be within the

01:33:18

Roman Catholic context or even within the Protestant context has there ever been any sort of Theosis idea put forth because I I hear it occasionally

01:33:29

Brought up or kind of giving a pat on the head from certain out there Protestants, but I I just don't really ever see it in the

01:33:38

West I Have a friend who does listen regularly

01:33:46

Who if he wasn't what he is, I know he would be Orthodox. He knows exactly

01:33:55

Who I'm talking about and there's something in the background that he and I share and he is a dear friend and I love

01:34:00

You brother and I can continue to pray for you And I mean that in the sense that I learned much from him and and stuff like that I'll bet you he'll send me some stuff and maybe

01:34:10

I'll remember to Mention it on the program next time around if he if he does

01:34:17

But I Smiled a little bit when you asked the question because what's interesting is one person who has been and it would not be because in To my knowledge.

01:34:32

He had no knowledge of Orthodoxy but there is one person who has been identified as having a similar concept in His thinking and in his writings that you may have heard of and You might be do you know who

01:34:51

I'm do you know who I'm hinting at? No, who Jonathan Edwards?

01:34:58

What Jonathan Edwards? Yeah, Jonathan Edwards You read some of the things that Edwards wrote on Glorification and You sort of go

01:35:14

Huh? Was he reading some Eastern Fathers and I don't see any evidence that he was now

01:35:23

Edwards did speculate about a lot of stuff and Sometimes it got him into trouble

01:35:28

His speculations his speculations on Adams will prior to the fall Pre -lapse area and stuff got him into into trouble

01:35:38

But yeah, what's interesting is I have heard various writers and I see what they're saying say that that Edwards said some things that would would move in that direction, but without Having been influenced by those writings specifically.

01:35:56

So that's about all I I mean, obviously some of the the the medieval mystics will

01:36:04

But but mysticism is gonna connect with mysticism all across the board

01:36:09

It doesn't even this that the thing that's scary about mysticism Is that you'll find

01:36:16

Christian mystics that sound just like Buddhist mystics. It sounds just like Muslim mystics because mysticism is the connection there and That's why mystics end up abandoning

01:36:29

In general the objectivity of Revelation whether it's the

01:36:34

Quran or Bhagavad Gita or whatever and So mystics could be put into that list someplace, but I'm not sure that it's a real meaningful connection because obviously at least in the early centuries where Eastern writers are developing a a

01:36:56

Theotic concept they're they're doing so especially within the the context of the rise of Islam and so they are

01:37:05

They're still connected to scripture in a meaningful fashion at that way so that's that's different than some of the later mystics, but Yeah, no outside of that.

01:37:14

I I'll be interested what my friend has to say He might have some some interesting stuff that I could throw out there for you

01:37:22

But that's the only thing I would be able to put out there. Oh Trust me.

01:37:27

I I grew up around Boston. I'm very aware that mistakes they Flow together what regardless of whether or not they're

01:37:33

Muslim Buddhist or Christian That's true. That's true. There's just something about that city. I don't know.

01:37:39

It's anyway That's Mexican food in the world Okay, thanks a lot for your phone call

01:37:46

I appreciate it Yeah, guys. Bye. Bye. All right. Hey, I went

01:37:51

Honestly, we're at 37 minutes longer than I thought we were and so I'm sorry guys if there's anybody oh

01:37:57

Oh Man Okay, Rick.

01:38:05

I Wish you all the the rich cam was not turned on when Rich was going but that's what he was doing

01:38:12

That's exactly what his watch that he is. So so proud of himself Something tells me

01:38:19

That we'll be doing this again In the not -too -distant future now, what would be really?

01:38:26

interesting What would be really interesting This guy seems to think

01:38:33

He's got it together now. Okay, he's he's he's you know doing this number. What's the topic?

01:38:51

Well now that you've mentioned him the poor guy Now I'm stuck. I've got to it's your fault.

01:38:56

But here was here's what would be really issue. We'll do this real quick I'm gonna have to really quick James. Hold on a second, but If he's really good, then we should be able to do this in the other studio

01:39:08

Oh Rich is going. Oh, yeah, no problem. No problem. All right. Okay, James real quick Where we've gone way way long.

01:39:16

I'll have to brief Hit me up Hey, dr. White. Sorry.

01:39:22

I'm using a pseudonym But uh, hey, I have a question on Dispensationalism, um

01:39:33

Is there any way to Reconcile the kingship of Christ now

01:39:40

Within a dispensationalist framework because I had a conversation with someone and um,

01:39:48

I mentioned, you know that Christ is King and This person said no

01:39:55

He's not not yet he's Lord, but he's not King And I really don't want to talk about Nothing the context in which this conversation happened.

01:40:07

I hear you. I hear you. I understand where you're coming from. I hear you Okay, so I'm gonna try

01:40:14

I'm gonna try to Contextualize this to where it's obvious that you are right now because there are obviously forms of Dispensationalism that are moving away from the historically defined categories, but it sounds like you're dealing with More of the rock -ribbed

01:40:35

Old style maybe even looking at Schofield with a bit of Concern that he's not quite as strict as he needs to be kind of dispensationalism and in that context

01:40:50

My understanding would would be that there is a a fatal conflict between the recognition of the full -orbed exaltation of Christ right now and the hope for future manifestation of Of that though.

01:41:14

I'll be honest with you In my experience most dispensationalist writers of of old

01:41:22

Struggled with the unity of the person of Christ in his offices in other words

01:41:29

If you if you look at the Westminster Confession London Baptist Confession you look at the catechisms there is an emphasis in Covenant theology reform theology on Christ as prophet priest and king and that he not only fulfilled these things in his life upon earth, but he does so now as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and The irony of that is

01:41:56

Christ kingship is just as central to the reality of his resurrected personage as his mediatorship is so, how can you because I mean

01:42:08

Most dispensationalist that I know obviously believe that Christ is interceding Before is at the right hand of the throne of the father and he's interceding

01:42:17

That's a clear direct biblical teaching, but that's part of the same reality of lordship and kingship and priesthood

01:42:28

And mediatorship and this is all the one Christ. And so the idea that whether there are certain very important aspects of Christ What is what is of really it's

01:42:38

Christ's exaltation? Yeah, the irony is right now the catechism question that we're using at Apologia and we need to get to the next one

01:42:45

But this is what we've been using for a while is talking about Christ's exaltation and what's interesting is

01:42:52

It asks in what what is Christ's exaltation what is involved in that and yes, it's his his exaltation right hand the father, but it's his it's his kingly reigning in that role and Submission of enemies under his feet and and everything that goes along with it

01:43:10

Which would not fit into the old -style Forms of dispensationalism, but I but like I said

01:43:20

Outside of the IFB where's Where is that kind of dispensationalism actually flourishing and growing?

01:43:30

because there just seems to be so many today who have Recognized there needs to be a fundamental reorientation of a lot of that stuff to where it becomes leaky

01:43:43

Dispensationalists and and things like that over time. But yeah, there there would seem to be a A contradiction there and I would encourage any of my dispensationalist friends to consider well the the glory of the reality that Christ must reign until all his enemies are put under his feet and If we see his enemies be put being put under his feet now and we do

01:44:09

We have seen many of Christ's enemies put under his feet and there are more to be put under his feet That means he's reigning That means he's reigning the fulfillment of Psalm 2

01:44:17

Put forth that righteous scepter reign. That's that's that's what Christ is doing. And it's

01:44:22

It's a glorious thing. So and don't worry about the the the pseudonym you picked a fairly decent name there.

01:44:30

So so All right Greek I'm sorry.

01:44:36

That was something that was something I picked up on in Matthew chapter 28 and seeing a connection between Matthew chapter 28 and Daniel 713.

01:44:46

Yep There's a there's a definitely a connection there and yep, yeah, it's up the question on you

01:44:53

Um, I heard someone else talking about the trail of blood and so I apologize for that.

01:44:58

Okay, no problem We appreciate and I'm glad we got to you Okay, thanks

01:45:04

James, bye -bye. All right. There we go. Almost almost a mega edition yikes

01:45:11

Um Those do go faster, don't they wouldn't you wouldn't you agree those?

01:45:17

Those go fast. Were you you didn't have the opportunity of writing any of those downs. I'm not gonna remember those Oh, you did.

01:45:22

Okay. Good good in in Those are all we got to man.

01:45:33

I thought we got to a lot more than that. I guess I talked a lot Mine stops with Nick at Colossians 2 and ends with trail of blood

01:45:43

Yeah, okay Yeah, okay All right, folks,

01:45:50

I Do need to continue on we are going to be continuing on looking at Middle knowledge.

01:45:58

We have not only Dr. Craig's presentation to really make sure we've walked through it completely

01:46:06

But we have other folks to look at as well Who though since they are associated with Craig are not going to contradict

01:46:15

Craig but have different takes that might be helpful in examining and So much other stuff to be talking about that takes place every single day

01:46:27

It's amazing. You don't do the program over the weekend and stuff that happened after the program on Thursday by the next

01:46:34

Tuesday is old news it's just the speed is Is astonishing we need to continue to pray that God would protect his people because That is a that is a great need

01:46:49

Anyways, thanks for listening to the program today. I hope those answers were helpful to everybody. Thanks for all the calls they were great calls and Lord willing.